Protecting Sharks and the People that Depend on Them with Gaby Ochoa, Ep. 100

This is another episode of the Emerging Wildlife Conservation Leaders program series! 

In 2011, Honduras declared all its waters a shark sanctuary. On paper, it looked like a major conservation win. But for the Indigenous Miskito fishers who had relied on sharks for generations, the law came without consultation- turning long-standing practices into crimes overnight.

My guest, Gabriela “Gaby” Ochoa, is a Honduran marine biologist and founder of Ilili, an organization named after the Miskito word for “shark.” Ilili is working to flip the script on top-down conservation by putting local communities at the center of decision-making. From training fishers in scientific methods, to blending traditional knowledge with modern science, to navigating the complexities of shark sanctuaries, Gaby’s work offers a powerful example of what conservation looks like when it’s truly locally driven.

Highlights

• What was the paradox of Honduras’ shark sanctuary and why did top-down conservation backfire here.
• How to build trust with fishers and transform them into collaborators and co-researchers.
• The emotional challenges of shark conservation and the small wins that keep Gaby going.

What YOU Can Do

• Listen first. Conservation that lasts begins by hearing all perspectives, especially those most impacted.
• Find citizen science opportunities by you. And, if you are in Honduras, report shark and ray sightings through Ilili’s website.
• Remember that conservation isn’t about telling people what to do. It’s about empowering local communities to lead.
• Shop to support Ilili  

Resources

• Ilili website  
• Facebook 
• Youtube 
• Instagram  

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Crystal: Hey friends, if you're here, I'm going to assume that you're interested in environmental stories, and in that case, I wanna recommend that you go check out the Healthy Seas podcast. I host that show for a fantastic marine conservation organization called Healthy Seas. The guests are all about making waves around the world to protect our oceans.

Go dive in and take a listen.

[00:00:30] I am Crystal DiMiceli, and welcome to the Forces for Nature Show. 

Do you find yourself overwhelmed with all the doom and gloom you hear of these days? Do you feel like you as just one person, can't really make a difference? Forces for nature cuts through that negativity. In each episode, I interview someone who is working to make the world more sustainable and humane.

Join me in learning from them and get empowered to take [00:01:00] action so that you too can become a force for nature.

In 2011, Honduras declared a nationwide shark sanctuary across its coastal waters. On paper, it looked like a clear conservation win, but for many indigenous Miskito fishers, it arrived without consultation, turning long held traditions, and a source of livelihood into [00:01:30] crimes overnight, and revealing a truth that we often miss.

Conservation isn't just about laws, it's about people trust and local leadership that makes protection workable in real life.

My guest today, Gaby Ochoa, knows this better than anyone. She's a Honduran marine biologist and the founder of Ilili, named after the Miskito word for shark. Ilili protects sharks and rays with communities [00:02:00] not around them. Partnering with Miskito fishers, training local collaborators to gather data and working alongside government to shape policies that communities can live with and champion.

Hi Gaby. Thank you so much for joining me on Forces for Nature. It's so great to have you. 

[00:02:22] Gaby: Hey Crystal, thanks so much for inviting me. I'm really excited to be here. 

[00:02:25] Crystal: So let's dive right in. Can you describe what sparked your [00:02:30] passion for marine biology? 

[00:02:32] Gaby: You know, that's a great question because a lot of my colleagues they always knew they wanted to be a marine biologist growing up.

 but the truth is I never knew I wanted to be a marine biologist. I was always incredibly passionate about. Anything animal, all wildlife. and I did spend a lot of time in the ocean growing up in the coast of Honduras. but it wasn't until later on in my career, when it was time to decide what I wanted to study, that I decided I wanna study biology.

[00:03:00] But I didn't know marine biology was an option. And my dad was living abroad, so I had the choice to study in the US and he said like, oh, like this school has a great marine biology program. And I remember telling him well, I don't know if I wanna train dolphins, because that was my idea of what a marine biologist does.

flash forward. Now marine biology is such a wide, thing to study. There's so much that you can do with it. so yeah. And so I enrolled in the marine biology degree. Hoping to transfer to [00:03:30] regular biology. And then, my first class was invertebrate zoology, and we learned all about corals.

And I was like, what is this? and I never switched and I never looked back and I don't regret it. 

[00:03:42] Crystal: So what inspired you to create your organization? Help me pronounce it and tell me about that name. 

[00:03:48] Gaby: we work with an indigenous group in the eastern side of Honduras, and this region is called la Moskitia. And people that belong to this indigenous group are Miskito.

And I remember asking them, well, how do you say [00:04:00] shark in Miskito? Right? and they said, Ilili. And you know, it was a name that stuck with me. And then. A couple of years later, I decided that I wanna start an organization and what a better name than ili. and we did speak with a lot of Miskito, people, 

 to ensure that it was okay with them that we use this name as part of our organization because we didn't wanna be part of cultural appropriation. We didn't wanna use a Miskito word, to benefit ourselves or something like that. We wanted to make sure that they were okay with it.

And of course, we also [00:04:30] have Miskito staff in our organization, so that's how the name, came to be. And I just love it. And then we had somebody make the logo, which turned, turned it into like a cursive name that looks like the ocean. So anyways, I love everything about it.

[00:04:46] Crystal: I really appreciate how you considered the cultural appropriation of the name. That's something that so many people don't take into consideration. It slips through our fingers very [00:05:00] often. 

[00:05:00] Gaby: Yeah. And like, it might seem like something really innocent. And the truth is, a lot of the times when people use words from other languages or dialects, they mean well, there's nothing wrong with using it, but I think it's important to have people on board and they are okay with you using it.

Because at the end of the day, I personally, I'm Honduran but not Miskito. so I don't belong to the indigenous group and I wanna make sure I'm always respectful of that. 

[00:05:25] Crystal: Wonderful. Now, why focus on sharks and rays? [00:05:30] They're not always the most loved of all the creatures in the ocean. 

[00:05:34] Gaby: Yeah, so sharks are definitely not the most popular fish in the ocean. People are really scared of them. I had the opportunity to start working with them in 2015 through another organization, and I knew nothing about sharks at that point.

 and then I realized there was so much conflict around them. because unlike a lot of species that we wanna protect, sharks are also food for many people, and people eat them around the world.

So [00:06:00] I was really intrigued by that. Also, the fact that Honduras is a shark sanctuary, but nobody knew it was a sharks sanctuary. There was so much misinformation around that in the country, and there was so much misinformation around the world about sharks and the role. And when we think about sharks, we always go straight to jaws riding great whites, but there's about more than 530 species of sharks out there.

[00:06:21] Crystal: Wow. Yeah. 

[00:06:22] Gaby: So anyways, everything about them was fascinating, but it was more fascinating the people that, depended on them and that were, causing [00:06:30] the problem if you could say quote unquote. 

[00:06:32] Crystal: And and around what time was this when you were getting into this work? 

[00:06:37] Gaby: That was around 2015 and the Shark Sanctuary legislation was in 2011.

so there was already a lot of conflict revolving around that time. And then in 2016, there was an amendment to this legislation that allowed quote unquote, incidental captures to be commercialized because the fisheries department understood that there were people that needed to use this resource.[00:07:00] 

And so that was sort of an olive branch for Miskito communities. But it also wasn't done well because, you know, incidental captures was not defined in this legislation as a number. It's an indefinite number of sharks. There's no oversight that's like 

[00:07:14] Crystal: that. Oops, 

[00:07:14] Gaby: I caught 

[00:07:14] Crystal: the 

[00:07:14] Gaby: shark kind of thing. It's like it could be like, oops, I caught 200 sharks.

Yeah. You know, and that is considered incidental within the legislation. And again. there was no, rules or regulations. There's no sanctions for, incidental captures and there's no way to report them. [00:07:30] So there was still a lot of conflict around it. because there was no way to know if something's incidental or not.

Fishers were still getting, apprehended or gear and boat taken away, ending up in jail. So there is a lot of problems revolving around the Shark Sanctuary legislation. 

[00:07:47] Crystal: , This brings up a really important point, is that in practice the sanctuary was, a conservation win except that.

It left out the crucial [00:08:00] piece of the voices of the local people, and especially the Miskito farmers who had relied on sharks for generations as part of their food. Right. And their economy. 

[00:08:11] Gaby: Well, that's actually really interesting. Two points there. . I like to tell people that, you know, we tend, and I say we as a conservationist and people involved in this field, we tend to think that conservation's like a cookie cover, right?

Like you just, copy, paste, can use it here too, and. Shark sanctuaries are great [00:08:30] tools and they have shown incredible results. And I don't ever want people to think that I'm against them. They are amazing and they work really well in places where there are other alternatives to shark fishing. Like for example, The Bahamas, where there's a lot of tourism and shark tourism, the maldive, there's tons of resorts.

the diving industry, the snorkeling industry, the resort industry. There's so many things for people to do there. But in Honduras, especially in la Moskitia, people are incredibly isolated. There are no alternatives. There is no [00:09:00] tourism. There is not even a road to get to la Moskitia. You either have to go by boat or by plane, So the Shark Sanctuary legislation sounded like a great idea, but then, people that depended on shark were not told that this was gonna happen. And then suddenly one day they're like, okay, well we're a shark sanctuary, And, it's all of your traditions are illegal. Pretty much.

Imagine, like I always tell people, like, imagine going to work one day and they're like, well, work's done. You can't do it anymore. you gotta figure out something [00:09:30] else to do and like, what are you gonna do where, where there's no alternatives. The other point I wanted to touch is that actually Miskito, folks, they do not eat shark.

It's the rest of Honduras that eats shark because Honduras is a traditionally Catholic country and during the 40 days after Ash Wednesday, good Friday, there's many traditions where you don't eat red meat on Fridays. And so there's a traditional dried fish soup that people consume in the main cities [00:10:00] of Honduras.

And people don't know that this dried fish is actually, shark is a product known as cicina. because sharks actually do not have bones like we do. there are skeletal structures made out of cartilage, so it's a filet that has no spines. And so it's highly sought around this time also, it's sold fresh, as something else.

So many people don't know they're eating shark. So Miskito folks, they have fish tank for a long time, but they actually don't consume it. It's the demand outside of la Moskitia [00:10:30] that is driving this.

[00:10:31] Crystal: Around the world, top-down conservation efforts can fall short when the communities don't feel the ownership or benefit of these new regulations. IIlili was created to flip that script, to put Honduran voices and especially the indigenous voices at the heart of stark conservation.

Why is local leadership not just nice to have, but essential for true conservation success? 

[00:10:58] Gaby: Yeah, so, for me, [00:11:00] conservation really is about people and I'm always surprised when I hear a conservation problem. And we're not really working with the people that are the problem. So that was like the first thing, right?

Like we, with the people that are the problem. Yeah. Like you said, you know, I hear a lot of the times like, oh, there's this conflict between these fishers and this animal, but I'm working over here trying to create a marine protected area, when really what we should be doing is like, okay, well let me speak to the people that are fishing for shark, [00:11:30] because they're really the ones that can make a difference.

You know, creating a marine protected area or creating a shark sanctuary without involving the people that are fishing for Shark, to me, was like. Didn't make sense, right? Mm-hmm. It, it sounds really simple, but it's not in practice. Um, so well, working with people is probably the hardest part. Exactly. I find that we are the hardest species to work with.

Yes. so yeah, when we started ly we were like, okay, well who needs to come to the table? [00:12:00] Like who really needs to be involved to make a difference? And we actually thought about three really important groups. First one, of course, shark fishers, right? They are the ones whose livelihoods depend on it. And in an ideal scenario, nobody would fish for shark.

But that's not possible in Honduras. So we need to find a solution. we need to find this middle ground where maybe shark fishers can still fish for shark in a certain way, and we can still protect certain species in certain areas. So that was like what created Ilili. And then [00:12:30] we thought about like, well.

There's also the fisheries department. They have the tools to enforce the Sharks sanctuary legislation to work together with the fishers to, regulate these incidental captures, but they don't have the skills or the tools, to do this. So we need to work with them. And so we've been working with them, giving them technical skills, to collect data on sharks.

We've been working with them and a lawyer and the fishers in la Moskitia to regulate incidental captures, to really amend this legislation in a way that [00:13:00] makes sense to everyone. And then the third group was really the general to close the loopholes. Yeah, close the loopholes. But also have, fishers have a voice, Because sometimes we create regulations and sanctions and things, but people are not willing to comply to them. and sometimes forcing people to do things really doesn't work either. So what are some things that they're really willing to comply with? nobody really ask them. and they have voiced that they are willing to comply with certain things, but they're not willing to comply with a complete, ban on shark.

[00:13:29] Crystal: [00:13:30] Okay. And are they willing to comply because you've been able to relay the ecological importance of sharks, or did they already know it? 

[00:13:39] Gaby: Actually, they are very attuned to, protecting their resources and they understand that this is not a resource that will be there forever. They understand that they need to protect it.

But they also understand that they are the owners of this resource. So I think there's been a lot of work that we've done to explain to [00:14:00] them the ecological role of sharks. Why are they important? You know, why do we need them? Not just for shark fisheries, but for all fisheries in general. But they also already had that, that sense of, ownership and protection for resources.

but they obviously see them in a different way that we do. 

[00:14:14] Crystal: Was there a problem? I, I'm sorry. I know I interrupted your third point. We'll get back to it. Yeah. but was there a problem with overfishing in, in these waters, like with the quote unquote incidental captures? 

[00:14:27] Gaby: Well, in, in [00:14:30] 2011 when the Sharks sensory legislation was passed, there was no information about sharks in Honduras.

We didn't know whether sharks were in decline. and I still to this day don't understand what the motivation was to create a shark sanctuary. so there was no information on sharks. And even to this day, I, Lilly has done a lot of work to create a lot of the baseline information, but there was still no information after the amendment of weather.

in the last five, six years, there was an [00:15:00] increase in sharks. Anecdotal information, like fishers do report seeing more sharks, but there's no data to support that. 

[00:15:07] Crystal: Oh. Seeing more sharks, not less sharks. 

[00:15:10] Gaby: Well, depends on where you're at. And also, you know 

[00:15:13] Crystal: Oh, because of the sanctuary? 

[00:15:14] Gaby: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And, but what we've seen through our work is that, we collect data from the fishers, they bring their catch and we measure the trucks that they bring. We also do fisheries. Independent data. So data that doesn't depend on the fisheries and we are seeing a [00:15:30] decline. We are seeing that the shark species that are being caught in la Moskitia are under the size, of reproduction.

So that signifies that it is overfished. So really we need to step in and do something about it before it's too late. And we've also learned through our work that lamo might be a nursery site for critically endangered scalloped and great hammerheads. So that's kind of our next step, identifying these places where these juvenile sharks are working with the community to see if we can, you know, [00:16:00] restrict fishing in some of these areas to allow some of these really critically endangered sharks to, to thrive.

it's not people report seeing more sharks, but the data showing us that shark populations are declining in lamos and we know that shark populations are declining worldwide. 

[00:16:15] Crystal: So you were saying you work with three different groups. You work with the fishers themselves, you work with the government, and I interrupted your third one.

[00:16:22] Gaby: Oh, no, no worries. when we started il well, nobody knows res that the shark factory, [00:16:30] nobody knows that sharks are important. Nobody knows why sharks are important, nobody knows why we need to protect sharks. So we realized that the general public really needed to be involved.

we create a lot of campaigns to create awareness around sharks and their importance. And also, recognizing that there are, limited funds in conservation and there are also a lot of colleagues and organizations working in Honduras. We were really mindful of like, what's missing, right?

So we created a lot of citizen science projects to involve the general public, to [00:17:00] report their sharks and raise sightings as a way to get involved, but also contribute, to our research. 

Wonderful. 

[00:17:06] Crystal: Ilili does a whole range of different work. But what I find very interesting is that you work with the Fishers, or you have them work with you, I should say.

You have the Fishers work with you in doing the studies, training them in scientific methods, inviting them to collect data and ensuring that their perspectives help to shape policy. [00:17:30] What does that look like in practice, transforming fishers into collaborators and co-researchers? 

[00:17:37] Gaby: Yeah, so I find that Fishers are my favorite colleagues. I didn't say this, but I'm currently also doing a PhD. and you know, you might think I have the knowledge, but really they have PhDs themselves. There is so much knowledge and information from them that I think is really, really important to incorporate in the work that we do.

I think the first step is informing them. There are [00:18:00] many times that researchers come into a place to do field work without notifying anybody that they're doing the field work. So for me, the first thing is like coming into their homes, coming into their waters. 

[00:18:11] Crystal: In the case, yeah, 

[00:18:11] Gaby: just coming in, doing the field work.

And they might have permits and they might have all in line to do this, but you don't let people know what you're doing. And I think that's like the first step, and that was the first step for us. this is what we wanna do. This is why we're collecting this data. Because a lot of the folks in this region.

Had [00:18:30] been burned in the past, right? Like lots of organizations had come collected data from them. They never knew. in fact, they also were, there was still a lot of resentment with the organizations that they were working with that then promoted a shark sanctuary. So idea of just working with sharks was, something they didn't want, right?

So we had a lot of work to do from the beginning if we wanted to work with sharks. So I think you had to build their trust pretty much because they were, they didn't trust us. They were like, oh, here comes another organization wanting to work with sharks. And the last [00:19:00] time, shark fishing was banned.

I think the first step is informing them of what you wanna do and why you wanna do it. And also giving this information back to them in a way that makes sense. You know, they're not gonna read. A scientific article, so being mindful of how you share this information for us, what's really worked, and I don't know how other conservations feel about it, but an incentive always goes a long way.

Because at the end of the day, you're asking them to take their whole day off from fishing to sustain their families, to help you do some field [00:19:30] work, and you'll expect them to volunteer. that doesn't work. 

[00:19:33] Crystal: So no, that's not fair to ask of anybody. 

[00:19:36] Gaby: No. Right. And so of course when they work with us, they get paid for their day of work.

 training them also in a way that makes sense to them, using words that they understand, not getting old science and techie about it has really worked. we have fishers that work with us that we train and they get in the field and do the work with us, but we also have fishers that contribute their data and their information.

so we are very [00:20:00] mindful when Fishers come with their cash and their tires and we're there, we hand them a Coke, they take, a moment to chill while we, measure all these sharks. And, at the end of our research we share this information back to them, in a way that they can use it and make sense to them.

[00:20:15] Crystal: So how did you gain that trust? Because I'm, I'm picturing, these people coming in from a long day, they have their catch and you're there to. in my perspective it would be like, oh, you're here to judge what I just [00:20:30] caught. So how did you gain their trust to get them to allow you in like that?

[00:20:35] Gaby: So I don't wanna take credit for that because I have amazing folks in our team that are Miskito. so I think the best way is also to hire local, hire local folks. a lot of our Miskito team grew up in these communities, knows everyone and had already that report with the community. So it actually was, I won't say it was easy, but it was easier [00:21:00] to say, Hey, is it possible for me to collect this information?

Like, we will use it for this and that. And also try to not get in the way of them doing their work because as you said, they're really tired, they've been fishing all night, you know, they're hauling these illness, there's lots of sharks that need to be. file, aid and process to be sold So try to not impact their work as much. sometimes they're like, it's not gonna be possible. And so we're like, okay, well we'll do it the next day. in other places in Honduras.

Also, I think, it was a little [00:21:30] bit hard to gain fisher's trust. 'cause at the end of the day, they used to see me as like this young girl trying to tell me what to do. right. So I have a great story about a fisher that I've been working with for the last 10 years, Exxon, and I actually took a free dive course to be able to free dive with him to show him that I can do this work too.

 That I'm like. I'm walking the, how do you say it? Walk the talk. Like I'm not just telling him we're gonna set this underwater cameras, I'm actually gonna set them with [00:22:00] him. You know? So being part of the team, showing them that you also wanna do this work, I think really goes a long way too.

[00:22:07] Crystal: You bring up a good point. You are a young woman and both are qualifications, for a lack of a better word, that some people have a hard time accepting and working with. How have you overcome those challenges?

[00:22:18] Gaby: It's definitely a challenge. Work in progress. It's a work in progress. Yes. I think it's getting better, but I won't lie to you and say, you know, there's been lots of times where I've been the expert in the [00:22:30] room and people are like, well, let's hear what he has to say. And I'm like, well, he wasn't there. so it's been really tough and I think, as women, sometimes we have to work harder, to show that we are capable to do this work, especially in certain situations of field work where it's physical, you know, a lot of the times, fishers or people think you're not gonna be able to haul that line, so you kind of have to prove that you're able to haul that line.

And yes, there are situations where extra force is required, and it's, it's [00:23:00] biology, right? but yeah, also, at this point I'm in the middle of a PhD too, and I do think, unfortunately, these three letters will make a difference in the way I'm perceived. Even though I've been working in this space, you know, for over 13 years.

Um,I, I still think it's needed and it's gonna give Ilili , more strength and more recognition. But yeah, it is unfortunate and it's still happening 

[00:23:22] Crystal: Science brings tools like underwater cameras and fishery assessments, while traditional knowledge provides [00:23:30] generations of insight about migrations, behavior and cultural meaning together, they create a fuller picture. How do you weave scientific research and traditional knowledge so that they can reinforce each other instead of competing?

[00:23:46] Gaby: Yeah, that's such a great question because I think those two sites are needed to bring the whole picture together. and I can give you two examples. One is, you know, this project that we just got funded on hammerheads, we really also. Need their [00:24:00] information as to where are they seeing these hammerheads, and how long do they see them, what times of the year do they see them?

And that as a scientist, makes your life easier because you already have a place to start. why are we gonna go collect data in somewhere else when the fishers are already telling us They see it. They see them there. Another great example is sawfish. sawfish is the critically endangered ray.

And a lot of the times they are a ray. It's actually a ray. Yeah. Soft or rays. Oh, a lot of people don't know that because they think they're sharks. I 

[00:24:28] Crystal: don't think 

[00:24:29] Gaby: I knew 

[00:24:29] Crystal: that. 

[00:24:29] Gaby: [00:24:30] Yeah, they're rays, huh? Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, no worries. Keep going. And um,you know, they live in very murky waters and a lot of them are basically extirpated from a lot of places.

So we've done a lot of surveys with Fishers and we've been able to gather information on when they were seen last, which has been quite recent, from the Fishers and otherwise we would've never known that, sawfish are found in Laia and recently. So I think that there's a lot of value in the information that Fishers can share [00:25:00] and that it can really contribute to make your research even better.

[00:25:03] Crystal: I am assuming that you have an affinity toward the animal and you wanna see it alive. So when you go on these fishing trips to see the fishing being done, , how do you reconcile that? How do you feel about it? How do you get through with the poker face?

[00:25:22] Gaby: It's really hard. it's really, really hard. And the first time I ever saw this , 'cause you know, you always see photos and things like that. but we managed to convince [00:25:30] Wildres, who is part of our staff, the first Miskito biologist. We managed to convince her brother-in-law to take her and another colleague,to the Miskito keys to go shark fishing.

And so, you know, not only was he bringing women. To a trip where normally women don't go. but we were also all biologists and we were basically there to document illegal fishing, to get an understanding of what is the scope and the magnitude of this. And I remember , , we got into this key, they [00:26:00] went and set their lines and the next day we, we woke up, they brought their lines in.

Many people don't know, but these lines are set for 12 to a whole day, you know, these illness. And so when they come back, it's a lot of dead sharks. And when they brought these, boats back, they were packed with sharks. One of them was like this huge great hammerhead and it was over, almost like four meter, hammerhead And I remember just being almost on the verge of tears and my colleague Ellie told me to like, get it together. You can't cry. [00:26:30] because at the end of the day they're not doing anything wrong. I know it sounds. Contradictory to the average person, but that is what they do for a living.

And who am I to come and judge them for doing what they normally did? So yeah, it was really hard. There was a lot of crying in my tent, but not in front of them because I didn't want them to feel like I'm judging them I think they're doing something wrong because they're not. and you know, during that trip it was tough because they ate shark.

'cause sometimes they [00:27:00] do just 'cause they're, out there in the middle of the sea, the fishers ate turtle. there were a lot of things that were eaten. and sometimes you cannot decline an offer either, right? Because it can be disrespectful. and , there have been times full disclosure, where I've been offered certain things that I've had to eat.

And it sounds contradictory, right? 'cause we're there to protect them, but we're also there to empower these people. To protect them. 

[00:27:24] Crystal: Yes. Oh, that's. It's so, like me picturing [00:27:30] myself in your shoes is so difficult and, and yet I know you are a hundred percent right and tough. 

[00:27:38] Gaby: Yeah. And then like a lot of people are like, well, why would you support, shark fishing?

And you know, in an ideal scenario there would be no shark fishing. Right. That would be the goal. fishers find an alternative and they don't fish for shark. That really is the goal long term. But to get to that point takes a long time. And right now [00:28:00] there's no alternative for them. So the middle ground is how can fishers fish for shark in a way that's sustainable?

Well, I know a lot of people don't believe that's possible, but it can be. And how do we also ensure that shark populations thrive? So it's a really tough place to be and I don't always have the answer, but we're working towards it. 

[00:28:21] Crystal: And sometimes the only way out of , shark fishing being the way, the only way out is through and you are [00:28:30] going through Oh yeah.

Right now 

[00:28:32] Gaby: we've been through it. it's, it's tough. It's tough work and, even, our team during the shark season is out there every day, measuring dead sharks in the sun. it's really labor intensive. not just physically, but emotionally. We love these disease. We wanna see them thrive.

It's really, really hard. And, if I can offer some advice, it's just, you celebrate the small wins, you celebrate when, I have some fishers that I work [00:29:00] with in some of the islands and they go offshore and fish for snapper. And they used to tradition, not traditionally, but they used to see sharks as a nuisance.

So they would kill shark. if they would for cause just because, just because they're annoying and having them come back and say like, Hey, we didn't kill any sharks this season. I'm like, wow, that's great. 

[00:29:19] Crystal: Mm-hmm. You know? 

[00:29:20] Gaby: or being at the grocery store and having somebody tell me like, Hey, did you find that fish you we're looking for like a little kid, which is the sawfish we've been looking for [00:29:30] soft.

so, you know, those for me are little small wins that keep me going. And I also try to like, when I take time off is to go see sharks alive with them. Circle 

[00:29:39] Crystal: with them. Dive with them. Yeah. I would be talking to them personally, being like, I'm gonna work to keep you alive.

I'm, I'm 

[00:29:47] Gaby: working to do my best. Definitely. But yes, it's not easy, to see them. it's tough.

[00:29:53] Crystal: Yeah, good for you. that's so impressive that you're able to, to do that. I, I truly believe that

[00:29:59] Gaby: [00:30:00] Yeah, I think that if there's something I really wanna get across is that sometimes doesn't have to make sense to you. I know that we've spoken over, our time right now about seeing dead sharks and how that doesn't make sense to you and it doesn't have to make sense to you.

It has to make sense. To the people that are actually there in the water, spending all their time with these species. It needs to make sense to them. So if we really wanna make a difference, we have to make it in a way that it makes sense to them, not us, because at the [00:30:30] end of the day, we're not the ones there.

You know, you're not the one fishing for shark every day trying to maintain your family. so I think it's hard, but we have to put ourselves in their shoes and what it's like to be a Miskito fisher every day, trying to make ends made in a place that is incredibly isolated where there are no alternatives but fishing.

so it's contradictory, but it doesn't have to make sense to you. 

[00:30:54] Crystal: That's such an important point to make. And for the listener and myself [00:31:00] to internalize. It's really, it's hard. 

[00:31:02] Gaby: Mm-hmm. It's hard because at the end of the day, I imagine everybody listening and everybody who supports conservation wants to see these animals thrive.

[00:31:11] Crystal: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:13] Gaby: It doesn't ever work telling people what to do. No. Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:17] Crystal: It 

[00:31:17] Gaby: really has to come from them. Yeah. And also I think we've learned so many lessons from COVID, from a lot of people that had projects in a lot of countries that, data sets that didn't continue because there was [00:31:30] no capacity in the country to continue it because it was all outsiders doing the work.

So if we wanna see a successful conservation initiative, it has to be with local folks because at the end of the day, people will leave, but they will stay. Yeah. And so they really need to be empowered to do this work. And I can't stress enough that investing in local communities and professionals is the best way to go.

[00:31:53] Crystal: Thank you for adding that. That's very important. 

[00:31:56] Gaby: You are welcome. I know, I think it's just crucial. Like we've learned so much [00:32:00] and we say it all the time, but we're not doing it.

[00:32:02] Crystal: Yes. And I, I can see that you have the. Dedication and capability to do that and be successful.

conservation in general can sometimes feel like it pits people against nature. But a Lilly is showing that when people are included, they become some of the strongest defenders of the species and the ecosystems that they live with.

Have you seen examples where involving the community actually shifted [00:32:30] people from reluctant participants into proud champions of conservation? And maybe they wouldn't qualify themselves as that either, but 

[00:32:39] Gaby: Yeah, I mean, I feel like Ilili is sort of the definition of that in a way, because we came into a space that was very.

Antagonistic, right. And, and we entered a space where people had been burned in the past, where, they were told they can no longer do what they used to [00:33:00] do. where just a mention of shark, made them uncomfortable, And, by involving fisheries, by involving communities, we're now in a space where there's a conversation around this, where the fisheries department came to it the first time.

I mean, they come to la Moskitia all the time, but they came from the first time to talk about sharks. and there was a conversation around like, well, what regulations could work? What doesn't work? You know, how can we mend this mess that we have in a way that makes sense to everyone? Right?

[00:33:30] And I think for me, the most important win is for Miskito folks and communities. To see themselves through ly. I hear them say like, oh, LY is the first organization working in the marine conservation space in Lamo, Pia. they've taken ownership of ly. I'm not ly, you know, they're ly everybody's ly.

So I think, that's something that I'm super proud of and that I'm really excited about. yeah. 

[00:33:55] Crystal: What did it look like when you first started this work and you went there, [00:34:00] and maybe we did already address this, but when you first arrived and that trust wasn't built yet, what were your first steps to get that trust going?

[00:34:09] Gaby: First of all, it was scary. Well, I imagine, yeah, because, you know, I'm a foreigner. At the end of the day, I'm Honduran. But I'm not Miskito. I didn't grow up there. I'm not part of the indigenous community. I'm really a foreigner. And the first time I went there, all the conversations are in Miskito and there's a whole lot of [00:34:30] conversation.

And then the person translates to me a sentence and I'm just like, okay. I think a little more was said, but okay. Yes. And so at the beginning it, it was a little bit scary. It was like uncharted territory and they weren't really happy, you know, and it's taken a lot of years of trust and collaboration to get to where we're from.

And I think perseverance, you know, and I think in this conservation space, we all have to be, a little bit stubborn. 

 at the beginning [00:35:00] it looked like a lot of conversations of what we hope to achieve, what we hope to do. We need to have approval from all the territorial councils that we're working with.

And in fact, you know, a very interesting exercise, we're just, are part of this consortium, I think I'm saying it right, of organizations that we've just been granted a big grant to work towards, declaring a marine indigenous conservation zone in the Miskito keys, which are these offshore keys that we work with.

And even before we started the project, we had to go like [00:35:30] territorial council by territorial council to explain the project and get their approval to even begin the process of. Formulating this project. so involving the community at every step of the way is crucial, especially when you're working with transparency groups.

Transparency. Yeah. And so now at this point, we've been granted the funds. And so now we are gonna do a ALI station. I don't know if that's the correct term, but maybe I'm translating literally from Spanish. But we're now gonna tell them like, okay, remember that project you approved that. We start, well now we've got [00:36:00] it.

This is what's gonna happen. How do you feel about it? Is this something that you wanna be involved? Are these activities that are gonna be beneficial to you? Because a lot of the times we create projects that we think are gonna be beneficial to the people, but we didn't ask them. a typical example is like, oh, a lot of these alternative livelihoods where we're like, oh yeah, I think Fishers should have a chicken coop.

You know, but maybe they don't want to. They're not farmers, they're fishers. And if you ask fishers, because we have whether they would wanna do [00:36:30] something else instead of fishing, the answer is no. They love fishing. So it's tough, when we create alternative life because we really need to 

understand what they really want.

Yeah. Very, very true.

[00:36:40] Crystal: Your story is not just about sharks, it's also about what it means to come back home as a Honduran scientist, as a female Honduran scientist and dedicate your skills to uplifting your own community. What does that mean to you personally to lead this work as an [00:37:00] Honduran woman in a space that has often been dominated by outside voices, 

[00:37:04] Gaby: you know, for somebody who accidentally fell into this space, I am just incredibly thankful, to be able to lead this work in Honduras.

And I really hope that people can see Ely, they can learn through Ely, and that it can inspire other women in Honduras to take the lead. starting a non-for-profit is not easy. It wasn't something I also planned for, I, it just [00:37:30] organically happens and it's been the biggest, greatest adventure that I've.

Had the opportunity to lead. And every time I've left, 'cause I've left many times unfortunately, to study. In fact, right now I'm, as I mentioned in the middle of my PhD, it's always been important for me to come back because a lot of Hondurans say that our biggest export is brains. So many people that are really talented professionals that get the opportunity to study abroad but never come back.

and for me it was a [00:38:00] personal mission to come back to Honduras and leave this work and make a difference in my own country. So I feel very grateful to be able to do this work. 

[00:38:10] Crystal: And you're juggling a lot of balls. you're leading ly, you're doing your PhD, you started this nonprofit from scratch and that is not easy.

[00:38:19] Gaby: Tell me quickly about that journey. 

Yeah, I mean, it's not easy. I don't know how, again, I ended up with, running a non-for-profit, and also a PhD. I don't [00:38:30] recommend it. It's a lot of work and unfortunately there is not a lot of resources out there.

there is not a how to do a nonprofit, out there. So a lot of it I've learned along the way. 

And I think the biggest hurdle out there, and I don't know if there's gonna be any donors listening to us, but a lot of the times I was told oh, we'd love to support you, but you're just such a new and small non-for-profit and your operating budget is so small. So how are we meant to grow?

How are we meant to do this work if you don't trust that we can [00:39:00] do it. So I really think that we need to trust these small non-for-profits. We can do this work, but if you don't give us an opportunity, and for our viewers, there perhaps a little bit tough to understand this, but I always tell people the non-for-profit world is like a bank.

You need to have credit, right? You need to have managed projects before for funders to trust you. It's the same concept. And so when you start from zero. Nobody knows you, nobody trusts you. So I just wanna say out there, we can do this work. You have to trust that we [00:39:30] can. 

[00:39:30] Crystal: That's a really good point.

how have you found those individuals or, foundations or whomever that were willing to trust the startup essentially? It's a startup. 

[00:39:42] Gaby: Yeah. I mean, it is basically a startup. we started with really small grants that would support our work. , and I wanna give a shout out to the Conservation Leadership Program because they were the first ones to trust me and Ilili to do this work.

And it was thanks to their support that we were able to get [00:40:00] Ilili off the ground. The New England Aquarium as well has been incredibly supportive, but also, if I can, again, offer another advice to on conservation is out there, you know how there's sometimes a box in grants. I'd say, is there anything else you wanna share with us?

Well share that with them. That's what I did. I was like, well, let me tell you, you know, yeah. We had a, I had a grant where I was declined twice from this grant, and I, and asked for feedback. So I asked for feedback and they said, [00:40:30] well, the advisory committee thinks you're a really young organization with very little experience managing grants.

And so in that little box, I said to them, well, you know, that is true, but I am also a leader in my field with over 13 years of experience. And although Ely is new, that I'm not new to this rodeo. Right? And so I also said how are we meant to take the lead? How are we meant to grow as an organization if we're not offered the opportunities to grow?

So this is a great opportunity to grow. [00:41:00] We got the grant. 

[00:41:01] Crystal: See, that's fantastic. Perseverance 

[00:41:04] Gaby: right there. Perseverance. Yes. It's key.

[00:41:07] Crystal: Most listeners won't be working with sharks or indigenous fishers, but they do live in communities where decisions about natural resources are being made. What lessons from Ilili's work can our listener take into their own backyards,

[00:41:24] Gaby: yeah, I mean, I always tell people that anybody can get involved in [00:41:30] conservation and e Lilly's proof of that with all our citizen science projects where we have divers and you know, snorklers.

Yeah. Any tourists to get involved and share information with us. And I think my biggest piece of advice is to listen. To listen to all perspectives of the problem before you make, your opinion of it. Because a lot of the times things aren't really like we see them. So I think my, my advice is from LY is to listen to all perspectives.

 I used to be a [00:42:00] very strong headed conservationist at the beginning of my career. Right. I was very determined, but I've learned a long way that if you just sit quiet and listen, there's a lot of things that you can learn, from the people.

So listening is really important. getting everybody on board. trying to bring everybody to the table is also really important. And, yeah, I think those are the, the two pieces of advice that I can offer from the Ilili work. 

[00:42:23] Crystal: And how can people support the ILI work? 

[00:42:27] Gaby: Yeah, so of course citizen science, if you are [00:42:30] in Honduras, which I know not everybody will, if you see a shark and Ray, feel free to submit it in our website.

Of course, visit our website, ili, ILIL i.org follow us on all our social media channels. you can always donate to our costs. We also host really amazing expeditions where you can join our team and spend a week as a marine biologist and your donation helps us, , carry our field work. we also have awesome swag and t-shirts that you can support.

We have a jewelry line as well. So [00:43:00] there are many ways, to support us. Oh, and before I forget. many people think you have to be a marine biologist to get involved and, organizations need all kinds of skills. Like if you're in marketing, if you're into communications, if you're into writing, even if you're an engineer, you wanna help us create better ways to assemble our cameras or, if you're into, logistics and things like that, we could use any type of brain power At this point.

[00:43:24] Crystal: I wanna do a quick shout out for ewcl, which is the Emerging [00:43:30] Wildlife Conservation Leaders program that we have in common and that you have in common with all the guests of this season. How has your experience with ewcl? 

[00:43:38] Gaby: It has been really amazing. , I learned so much from everybody there, but the most valuable thing has been this amazing network of conservationists and other folks working in the conservation space that you can always reach out to.

I find it fascinating that no matter where you are, there's a ECL there and every time somebody needs something, there's [00:44:00] always somebody there who's already done that work already that can offer some advice. So for me, again, the most valuable thing has been all the humans that ewcl and how inspiring they are.

And I think I probably wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for you. Especially Renee Bumps, who's part of the board who has always been like, you can do this. You know? And I wanna give her also a special shout out because she's an amazing mentor and friend, and always supporting this journey. But everybody at Yuko has been, incredible and I can't wait to [00:44:30] see everybody in December.

It's gonna be so great. 

[00:44:32] Crystal: Yes it is. I can't wait to see you there. Gaby, thank you for all that you do. You're making a difference.

What Gaby's story shows us is that conservation isn't just about passing laws or declaring sanctuaries. A law on paper means little if it doesn't make sense for the people living with the consequences and is likely to be worked around because there isn't true buy-in. By building [00:45:00] trust, blending science with traditional knowledge and creating space for indigenous voices Ilili is showing us what conservation can look like when we truly listened and respect those who might be most impacted by these decrees.

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