On episode #2 of the 2B Bolder podcast, guest, Tracie Zenti, Director of Business Programs at Microsoft chats about her career journey, the lessons learned along the way, the importance of building and keeping good relationships (networking), the art of negotiating and more. Tracie provides listeners key insights and tips on ways to make it in the business tech world today.
The 2B Bolder Podcast is designed to provide you first-hand access to some amazing women. Guests will include women from leading enterprise companies to startups, women execs, to coders, account execs, engineers and innovators.
To be inspired visit https://www.2bbolder.com/podcasts
On episode #2 of the 2B Bolder podcast, guest, Tracie Zenti, Director of Business Programs at Microsoft chats about her career journey, the lessons learned along the way, the importance of building and keeping good relationships (networking), the art of negotiating and more. Tracie provides listeners key insights and tips on ways to make it in the business tech world today.
The 2B Bolder Podcast is designed to provide you first-hand access to some amazing women. Guests will include women from leading enterprise companies to startups, women execs, to coders, account execs, engineers and innovators.
To be inspired visit https://www.2bbolder.com/podcasts
Hi there. My name is Mary Kill Olia. Welcome to the to be bolder podcast. Providing career insights for the next generation of women in business in Tech to be bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing. My desire to bring together Lifeline is women and my hope to be a great role model in source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up. But to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible on to be bolder. You're gonna hear inspiring stories of how successful women some I know, some I just want to bring to you guys and they're gonna talk about their careers in business and tech, and they're gonna tell us their stories about their passion in their journey and they're challenges. And we're gonna learn some of their advice along the way, too. So sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation. Today on the to be bolder podcast, I have the pleasure of talking to Tracy's nd She is the director of business programs at Microsoft. Tracy and I have known each other for several years. She has been not only a friend to me over the years but also mentor to me and gave me a lot of sound advice when I transitioned into corporate America, focusing it on tech marketing. Welcome, Tracy. I appreciate you being on the show.
Thanks for having me, Mary. It's great to be here.
So many people don't know this about you, but Tracy is super gifted at coming up with simple metaphors that help explain complicated technologies.
I remember sitting at many lunches having you draw things out or moving the salt shaker and the proper being around. So how how does that become part of your gift or your ability? Or how do you use that to help explain the tech? Because it can be complicated sometimes.
Oh, gosh. Yeah, you know, Cloud especially. I think that for me, Mary, when I started learning the even though I had a couple of years of computer science in college and I could be totally honest, I hated it. I was not a programmer. It was all very, um, quick learning a mask that has no practical application in real life. It just felt, and I was good at math, but I had the same problem in math. So honestly, I think if you really want to know, I came up with a way of understanding, uh, very difficult physics and math, contact concepts when I was in college and high school, Uh, because I couldn't I couldn't understand it. So I don't think I've ever realized necessarily. But I do it for others. I do it for myself. And then somewhere along the way, early on an intel when I realized I pretty early I'm the only person here primarily around that doesn't have a PhD or a high degree of a master's degree. Um, that I was the weird person out without any tech background. And so I began to try to reach out to others and to learn. And same thing I had to learn, using my analogy so that I could make it more real for me. And there came a point when I got into marketing where people were like, Oh, you kind of are really good at explaining that a simplistic way, and I went, Oh, I thought I was You know, I kind of my perception was that it was like I was being non educated person in the room who had to explain it that way for me to understand it. Um, but it's come back around now. Microsoft. You know, I've been there about five weeks, six weeks now. And the people are like, Wow, your analogy there. Great.
Hey, so let's get started by having you tell the audience about your background and highlighting some of your jobs that you had along the journey. So I'll let you start a Gush suitcase.
I got a call to go work in Hollywood video 15 video stores with a corporate entity at that point, and they said, We're gonna We're gonna have you fly around the country and open new stores. And I was like, travel.
Sign me up. And about 24 of my peers had the same reaction, and there were So there was 26 of us in the department, and that's what we did. And it was an insane entrance into sort of everything retail. We set up computers. We did the marketing, we train the staff, we worked 36 hours straight, and then we'd crash for two days and then do it again. Just crazy. And we were the fastest opening process in the country. And I got about six months, and I'm like, Boy, I'm
tired. That's his
exhausting. And I think at that point I'd opened about 35 stores and I started to go. Boy, there has to be something else. Where am I going with this is fun. But I'm 22 years old. I need a career. I can't do this for the rest of my life. All the while, I loved computers. I did not like programming, but I loved nascent tech. And in fact, everybody in high school called me Tech Girl. And, um, you know, ever been teased me about my need for the newest greatest technology as the only kid And my four, uh, the dorms that had a computer. Um, you know, everybody borrowed my computer, and so, um, you know, I thought Okay, well, you know, there's a bunch of tech department you're Maybe I could move into those, and, um, I started kind of networking, which is gonna be the crux of what I kind of talked about today. Networking is the key, and I made friends making friends of people and asking them how they do do your job. Their job, Steve Lee can never, ever, ever sciri room Never. You were so much when you talk to somebody about what they like about their job and it's the same process I have used every ever since and before when I was working for the lawyers trying to decide what school or not these same skills, right? I would interview these women who were lawyers. And what do you like? What don't you like? So I started doing that. And I have to, By the way, I gotta get my my father props here. This was my dad from the time I was tiny, like a old enough to care about anything, you know, 12. 13. If you want to figure out what you want to do in life, you go talk to people they love to talk about what they
dio. That's great advice. Yeah, it's that
they dio they love to tell you what they do, the good and the bad. It's so true. It's the universal on And he was dead on, right? And I think it was a country club skill that he had learned,
the, you know, 19th hole conversing with, you know, very friends in business. They would do that over drinks at the end of the day, you know, and on. And so I went over to the tech department and I became friends with developers and support people and then, you know, kind of didn't still kind of put it back burner, but just sort of learning their process. What do you D'oh! And about two months later, I got a call, and they said, Do you wanna be a person that right, specks in the warehouse. And I was like, Ah, where Hope not where I'm headed. And they said no,
this is like you're gonna write specs for the new technologies now in technology. Okay, sign me up. But the funny punch line of this is I didn't know expect mint.
had a few years and computer science at
O where they never taught us anything but programming in a language no one used to bend and no one uses today.
didn't know what I had no idea. And so I got the job and I was like, Well, I think this is the other thing. You know, like people are always worried that they're in our world, that they don't know enough in their Underqualified imposter syndrome,
The reality is we are all learning all the time, and there are very few true experts, right? And I can probably count on one hand, the people I know they're very true, complete total experts in their field because it changes too fast for anybody to be a true expert. And so I don't know if it was just blind stupidity or arrogance or what it was, but I I I'll figure it out. I have these friends in the in the I T department sale will help me make it through and and they did, they did. I went right to them and said, What's a speck?
And I don't think that's a vacation, you know what I mean? I think that's just being inquisitive, and I think that's what I hope comes across in this podcast. As you tell the story, yeah, is having the gift of not taking no for an answer or not limited in yourself and on uncovering the rocks and turning them over to learn it and get the passions answered. So please continue
well, and I think you're right. If I look back on my career, the thing I kind of always had my back pocket was What's the worst that will happen when people think about risk taking? I think they disastrous eyes what will happen. And then there's a very logical what will happen is the worst case, and you can usually know that going in most areas. So I'm I hurt my in this scenario. My worst case was I will screw up and not do it well and I'll know. And so then I'll pivot and try to get a different job back in this department. We were growing so fast, I felt like if I'm not right, I can come back. You
had a good foundation. People liked me. And so, um, I immediately called my friends and said, What's the speck? And they said specifications. I said, Oh, great, what's the specifications? Oh, nobody. They said they laughed, just like you know, they chuckle this. Don't worry. You're gonna write this for
us. So we're gonna teach
you because guess what? No one ever in their history had ever asked them how they wanted the specifications written. So they were thrilled because they for the first time ever, we're being allowed to tell me what they thought the right thing was to do. And a lot of times in business, it goes the other way.
business tells Tek, and tech has to make it real reality. And that can be difficult, right? That's the whole you've ever seen. Or you haven't looking up the tire swing like Here's what the business thinks they want and here's what they get after they tell Tek what they want. It's not really a tire swing. It's a rope in a tire. So, um so anyway? So they trained me, and I actually end up working on the most nascent technology at the time. Really, Which was where? Health management System, a k A. What does Amazon do today in their warehouses? Right there? They're automated in terms of how they run their business and picking and pulling product and shipping it. I got to tour Colombia's facility at the time. They were the best in the in the world at the time, at automated pick and Poland ship. It was absolutely amazing. And every technology went into this. So I really learned a lot about, like, wireless communications and, um, infrared technologies and databases and logical flows of work. Flip, it was amazing. But somehow yet that wasn't enough. It wasn't It became boring after about nine months because I figured it out. And so then I thought, Well, I need to do something more, more nation again, like more emerging. And we're new. Um, and Hollywood was doing a tech project on wider network deployments across their stores use satellite, and nobody had done it yet. We were gonna be one of the 1st 3 customers in the world. Um, and again, I don't know. I think I just had a high risk powered because I always feel like, um, the worst happens. You screw up and you could always go back to what you did before you did that. Well, right. And And so my risk tolerance was high because I never felt like I would fall too far. The fall was incremental fall, And so I went and lobbied. And this is the whole, like you hope it shines sooner That just don't take no for an answer. Um, I lobbied to go do that project, and I have no basis for being qualified to do that project at all. Um, but I just I kept telling the CTO I wanted it and I would do a good job and that I had project managed the warehouse and I could do it. And he kept laughing and going. You don't know anything about this. I didn't but start up. I think, the other going thing to glean Herring tossed in kind to take people that understand their business and give them opportunities. They wouldn't necessarily get other places. And I knew that I knew they needed Hollywood knowledge and Hollywood video knowledge of how we did things on. There were a lot of touch points, but I have learned in the stores because we were setting up from scratch, that disaffected this project would effect. So I made it a point to go bug him once a week. I think
told you this story before. I literally can't outside of his office at the same time. Once a week. I figured out when he didn't have meetings and I would go and talk to him for 15 20 minutes once a week about the project. In one day out of the blue, he called me and gave it to me.
That's a minute. Didn't believe me at
first. Like I chastise him a little bit. I was like, Oh, John, it's not fair for you to teach me like this, you know? I want that job and he's
really giving you the job And I was like, That's not funny and I know he did. And honestly, it was the most, uh, it really was the launching pad truly for me in the Tech, there were to learn all the networking about that and the protocols, and it was really complicated. That's really when those analogies now and, um again I relied on my network. Help me. I mean, there were so many things I didn't know, Um, and we finished that project 2500 satellites deployed across the country. Um, in four months, we're supposed to do it in three. And honestly, I hard work is the other ethnic here. And the other thing I was young, I had lots of energy. I probably work 90 hours a week, but I was enjoying every second. There was not a minute that I felt like I was working. You know, I really loved everything I did. And that was it for me. That was kind of like, OK, this is it. I'm not gonna go to law school. I love this. I guess I want to be a project manager. And that's what I thought was gonna be my career Till I left Hollywood and I went on to Sequent Computer Systems. I did a, ah, project Management. I t roll there in consulting there and kind of ran their up for for their consultancy. Andi. I followed people again. My network friends, people who I dressed did went to intel. So I fell it along, and, um and I end up in Intel where I realized quickly that I was like, the only non tech person in the room on it. Well, I'm the only woman
pretty preached to early
me and I was my friend, like saying me and a bunch of do, um and ah, it just the same thing. Every time I took on something new, I just had to go to that network that kept growing right of people that I would
call people in Hollywood for advice. Um, you know, your network is your network, regardless of where you go, and, um and and, you know, I always say this, and I think it's true, and it's just natural for me. Friends do more for friends. They just you just do and you know why not have friends at work? You know what I mean?
Like, well said Joe
and they you I help my friends to write, we help each other and, uh, and because I know things they don't rate. I think it was a lot the other direction. I think they help me more in the beginning, but I helped them now, right? So, um, so I ended up a intel, and, uh, I still thought I'm a project manager and I did that same project manager in a consultancy business. You know where you like farm out your consultants for a couple 100 bucks an hour running? They're kind of operations and project management stuff. Um, you know how to run job, how to bid the jobs. And, you know, we're pouring and rolling out an E R P, which was a huge learning, a swell enterprise resource planning with people. But I kind of found that, like again about three years into doing that job. I was like, Okay, I'm really going through the motions every day, and I'm not learning anymore. After the air payroll out was that I just wasn't it. Just keep the lights on, run the business. And I learned at that point that was my moment of truth of I am really good at breaking down the brick wall once, maybe twice. But after that, I mean, it's just become so boring for me. I am not a refiner. So knowing yourself,
back and recognizing who you are and what you're good at, it's okay to not be good at everything. I am not good at everything, and I have no desire to be so I can't be So what? What? And I think a lot of it comes from just looking at what you like and realizing, Oh, I see a pattern here constantly want new and I don't like to refine processes, so okay, I should probably not try to go into jobs were ever find processes. Um, I joke. It's why my husband and I have been married for so long. He's a refiner
together. Very well.
Yes, exactly. Someone needs to refine. It just should not be me, because it won't be done. Well, um and so I began to touch that network again. Like, OK, guys, what do you think I should do? Because I'm strong unstuck, and I feel like I don't know what's next. I really didn't. I was like, I really don't like what I'm doing, but I don't I can't see what I would possibly be good at after this. I just can't. I mean, I think it's impossible. You don't know all the jobs that exist, you know? I mean, you can't go to college and be like, I want to be in business that all men, that's rare, right? If you're gonna be a professional, maybe doctor lawyer, but even specializing you don't know all the areas of specialty when you go to college. Um, and your network can help you with that. They know you really well, right there. They're your friends. They've taught you along the way. Well, they did that for me. They were like 11 woman in particular. I'm gonna shout out to Shelly Wagner. She and I started on a project together and honestly, we butted heads like it was kind of tough. I had to, like, really work to kind of like moderate, and I think she did, too. We were a lot of like and it was hard and we got through that project. It became really close Friends and really close work colleagues as well. Like we really trusted each other's opinion. So sometimes the people that challenge you the most and you struggle with enough become your biggest advocates, and I think more often than not. So you have to be open to realizing that when you're struggling with something, they have a lot to teach
you what it stands in there.
Yeah, like I had to tight stop and kind of looking. What am I missing? And what a night. What did I need to learn? And I did that with her. Thank God, cause it really changed the course of my career. And she said, You are a really good product manager. But, you know, I turn about technology now, like, you know, like from being a consultancy up like we were doing all kinds of projects networking and databases and analytics, and you name it right. That's what you hire consultants to do early days, right? This is like, um probably like, 2000 to 2003 and I was like, Oh, I guess I kind of don't feel like it again. You get out. Imposter syndrome. Look at you. I feel like I know it's much. As you said. She's like Tracy, you know, like, you know, a lot of things about varying degrees of technology that I don't know other people that know. And so you really need to be an I t. Like what? No
a night here like coders. And they like six hardware. She goes No, no, there's all kinds of other things. And and she was In fact, you know what? I have this business group that is actually sort of a neat your own dog food for intel. We're gonna, like, take their newest technology, it until we're gonna test it out and tell them this is the right way to go, or it's not. And I went off new technology. Okay, remember, You know I I had learned early on that was like my, you know, world
a dog right world, and so I was like, Oh, you attack. Okay, Well, why didn't you say so? She's like, I think you'd be good at this job tonight. It took some convincing, actually. I've been talked into jobs a few times by people, my network that I thought over it in a way. But okay, you seem to know what you're
talking about. And
I'm And so I followed her advice, and I took this job. Is director of I T for the land access division. That's become part of it. Until people don't know about that, make me like, wireless access cards and the, you know, the land access controllers. And, um, I didn't even know it existed, right? I'd like Oh, we do
that. So you don't know what you don't know. And that's guy news that I didn't know where comes into play. Absolutely.
Yeah, well, and there's a lot of businesses it until like that. Actually, people don't know. It's actually, uh uh, you know, they do a lot of things in terms of nascent technology, and I learned that that day, like I had in that job, like, Oh, we do a lot of things I didn't I didn't realize that there's a lot of ramp here for a career that I had no idea exist. And to me it was all about the consultancy, right? I had no idea that. And we made the insides of computers. That's all I knew. And so I did that job for about nine months and I ended up on this technology. He was kind of a lot. I've done a lot of different things, you know? So it's sort of hard to like. Bundle left
career into five minutes, but the technology was like, Hey, we're gonna put this controller on the land access card that allows you to remotely control computers, and we need you to prove out that it works. And I was like, What? How would you look? Hang on, Let's back up the bus for a minute. How would you even build a technology? You don't know that works like what? So I didn't know the process protect development, and I learned about that along the way. You know, it's like, well, we kind of build these into what's called a field. Programmable Gatorade. What is that? Right? And so all these things that I began to like, understand? Oh, it's just a programmable chips, you know? Okay, so you can program it. Just software. I would call it hard stuff where
computer is all just software. It's just some is on the motherboard, and some is up in the back of the election, you know? But it's all software, and And what we did that we went to kind of I got a bunch of experts, made friends again, made a bunch of friends to like I'm like, a I don't know what this means. Can you help me? Oh, sure. You know, I'm an architect. I'll help you. I don't want this to screw up, So let me help you make this successful. And, um and I got about a six person team together, a very people couple for my tea, couple people from that business unit. And we just started sitting in the conference room, and all of a sudden I realized Whoa, hang on. I'm a project manager, and that is what I'm doing here. I'm just organizing these people to get together. I'm not actually solving problems. Uh, if I were left to solve this problem or e, forget it. There's no way I can't deep that dive that d create. I'm not ever gonna be a board architect, right? Chip? Chip architect. That's impossible. I would have to go back and go to school for six years, right? So But I can learn enough to help these people come together, right?
And so get
the analogies began to really take hold because they were bridging people like the architect. Couldn't understand the i t guys needs in terms of how to use it, right? So then kind of giving them analogy so they could speak the same language. I became a translator and organizer and the translator, and I kind of went Okay, look, the same skills have always used right, and at the end, we would Okay, this thing works and it's a go should do this. And I'm the lesson learned was you've got all the people you need, the technology works, but you're missing this job position that goes and gets the ecosystem to take advantage of it. And when I say that, think like if you have a, um, a processor and a chip on a computer, You're kind of nothing without the operating system in the apse, The operating the system in the app store, kind of the ecosystem. Right? You're driving a car. Ah, you're not gonna get very far without gas stations and places to fix your car and roads, right? Those are your ecosystem. And I realized that was missing. They needed an ecosystem of partners to support it. Um, remote control. You need a remote control partner like a the time BMC Orlando. And so I wrote that up and hand it to the manager, and later he would tell me I was so convincing that he just
believes me. That is really horrible.
Fake it till you make it.
I was very convincing is so funny. And our good friends to this day, I've looked from 20 love the man about a month went by and I'm onto the next thing and, um, and paddle board again. I'm like,
working on the new
thing. And I'm
like, What am I going to do? And seven months into this job, eight. And I'm already bored and my boss calls and she says, Hey, you know that that lesson learned you turned down with the job description? Well, the manager wants to talk to you. I was like, Oh, you know, if I did something wrong, which is kind of always me I'm always worried about, you know, I can kind of a pleaser and an ex leader of expectations. And so I went to him, mate with him, and he said, um, you're right about your lesson learned. And I'm like, Oh, wow. Okay, he goes and we need that job to fill it. And since I can't, I have no idea what the job is because we don't have it here it until I need you to take it. And I was like, Oh, no, no,
no, no. You wish. Check.
Yeah, yeah. Back up the bus. That was never the intention. I was not trying to create a job. I'm so sorry, Mr
Cities like. No,
I didn't misunderstand. You are, um you need to take this job because I know we can't be successful without this role, and I think that there's people surely that have done this job before. He's like I don't know where to find them to you. And I'm like, no
I just wrote what native every bad I didn't think in terms of a double portion. So he I went back to my boss, who I'd only been in my role for 8.5 months of point. And I said, Hey, uh,
what do you think? I mean, I don't think I should do it. She's like, Oh, no, I've already decided you're taking the job. Now, keep in mind this is that same woman that convinced me to go to I t in the first place, Shelley. And I said, uh, Shelly, uh, you're crazy. I've never done that job. And she's like, uh, you're taking the job can I was like, I okay again. I'm thinking, Well, worst case scenario, I can fall back. Shelly's an advocate, and she's a trusted advisor, and I should trust her. And I'm excited about it because it is new, Right? Um, nobody's ever done it before, and it does need help, and I like to kind of like I've always realized Now, also, at this point, I like to take on that hard undergone project that everybody else feels like they can't D'oh! Um, but has a lot of potential, you know, like the much that just needs a haircut. Shampoo. I like
need the money with that. Needs the bathroom. But in
this and the cuts, right,
Adam and the haircut in the mail. Done. So I took the job and I went into it, and I still like, there are All these people were like, I started meeting, and they're like, No, we don't need that role. Why are you here? And then, you know, and then why are you here? Especially people that didn't know me. You don't know anything about this? Who who died and gave you
right? Like, how did you inherit this and, uh, that every first time really facing skepticism. And that was hard. Like, um, you don't have the pedigree for this. You don't come from Harvard. You don't come from m i t. Um, you don't have a tech degree. Um, why are you taking the sun? And and I really struggled for the first few months. Um, and the 19 English Or he thought non non speaking English speaker. Right. He he was clearly just a cheerleader. No, you stay the course. You know what this needs? They don't. You're in a lane, they don't understand. And you just need to stay the course. And he was getting better, Of course, all the time. Um, and he was speaking final with the understanding was struggling, So I stayed in it. And that is that being the next six years of my life, the longest job I've ever done. And, um, I was the We didn't know what the title was my boss at the time, but I moved to a new box, kind of moved two departments the whole tech, moved to a new department and moved into the digital business group had been telling. And they titled me The Ecosystem enabling product Marketing Engineer? Yes. Oh, yes, if you're it. And so I think if you're in accounting me of
engineering and title
and and I, uh, thought I'm not a marketer, I'm not an engineer. I'm probably an ecosystem enabler. That made sense, but I just rolled with it, and I just started making friends with the Iast needs, like again that I approach it from a friendship angle and they I don't know. Guys, what I'm doing here. How have you done partnerships in the past? Help me understand how to work with you. Uh, and again, it was like the developers going back toe Hollywood days. Oh, my gosh. You are asking us
like us to work
We love you already because no one ever asked. Um and I think that's a key takeaway. Ask other people how they want you to work with them because most people don't ask that.
That's it. Come in, young Blade. This?
Yeah. And, um, if you think about it, really, you appreciate it yourself. If anybody ever asks you like, how can I help you be successful? It's sort of refreshing. You don't get that a lot in tech. A lot of people in Tiger really knowledgeable and come in, and they're like, I know the right thing to do. We're going to do it this way. And, um and I don't think any of us really particularly loved that. It's funny. I think a lot of people act that way, but they don't love it themselves, right? And I'm And so we spent the next six years together, a company called Land Us Now Avanti Semantic. Um, Microsoft was involved All these manageability players that kind of like, how do we manage computers in the data in A in an enterprise, right. Both servers and clients, four sugars and desktops and laptops. And I just I kept learning that is such a vast area of knowledge that I I never stop learning for six years, But all things come to an end, then you have to accept that in career and a life and in tech, you know, it was a season for me, and it was time to change. And then I kind of hit a phase again. We're like, Oh, now what? E I don't know what to do. So I think, uh, I went back to my network again
said, Guys, now what? I really it's not I'm not looking for you to get me a drive I'm looking for I don't know what to do next. And there was my former manager of names, Edo Kitty, and, uh, I said, Ah, I don't know, You know, you know me well, what do you think? And he's like, Well, I have a job open in the server group, and I went t I know nothing about servers, Really. He's like, Awesome. You'll have a lot to learn because
really good at pay gain, people's personalities. And so he was like, That's great for you. Like to learn. So I took the job and it ended up being a deep dive and security and firmer security. But pretty quick, it came timeto like we were. I had learned kind of what I could learn to help the project, and I had advanced to the point I could, and I I felt like I wasn't learning anymore. And then it was just refining at that point. You know, it's like, just keeps saying the same thing and helping people understand and keep getting people to find up like this. 20 really realized I loved development, and I love taking things that were, um, a bunch of parts and put them together. I like making a pie, you know, take the apples, take the sugar, take the flower, take the shortening and put it all together. You get a pie. But one surprise done. I'm not interested in making 100 guys and, um e So I did the same thing. Reached out to the networking. Funny thing. I, um I was talking to a couple different outside of intelligent first time, and I looked back and I was like, Oh, my God, I've been here for 14 years. What happened? There's all these different careers, and I've enjoyed it, but I like I've been here a long time, you know? Maybe I need to try outside until and a process to begin talking to different people. And I finally kind of settled on if I truly loved building, making the pie the first time, I probably need to be in this group called the New Business Organization and Intel, which is what they did when I did that for three years. When I get too crazy, projects like Genomex is a service. Um, all Brandon for me. Health care? How did how the process of mapping our DNA. I got to meet the genetic analysis tool kit. Creator, Inventor like the guy one of the four people who now who invented the ability to map the genomes. Uh, it was incredible. It was whole way outside my lane, but it was so far outside my lane that I went Ah, um, I pivoting to health care. Now I love health care. I really do. But I love tech, and I was like, I don't think I want to make that far of a pivot like, I really think I need to stay in the pure tech kind of enterprise asked me 10 years and I might have changed my mind. But at this point, this was 2000 17 ish 16 and I realized, like, I probably like I may be too far outside my happy place for Tech because because it helped kind of actually a little bit behind in Texas. So it's sort of like taking a step back up in a way. And until I decided, start looking. And that's when I found out about the job at Amazon and it was running as strategic partners. Building a business on the Amazon Web service is marketplace, which was an interesting things I done inside gigs about consumer ization of I t. When I was in that after Solutions Group and I realized then this is like eight years, 98 years ago, probably that I P is having this broader consumer ization of I t happening, which is processes that you and I lived through in our daily lives of consumers of just everything you know, buying on Amazon, whatever buying absent or phone that was coming. So I t in a giant wave that was crashing down, and I was trying to grapple that and change their processes in there and the way they did things to still be secure. But offer that, you know, can you get on your phone and download an app for work kind of style of, um, of deploying, delivering solutions. Tiu the enterprise users like you and I and our jobs, Right? And, um and I realized that that was what this marketplace offered was the ability to just click to buy software and cloud together. And I had spent a bunch of time on the cloud that was doing well all the way back to SS tree again in 2009. So when club wishes developing and virtual ization and all that and so I thought, Well, that's an interesting next step because it really is making life easier for procurement of people. Nike. So I took that job and that I did that for 2.5 years. And, um, it was time for a change again. And I took the job at Microsoft, go work for them and an azure marketplace again, but in a different capacity. But again, that seems to me that, to me is still nation and knew that paradigm of, um, I see is not on mass yet. Buying and marketplaces. The cloud is still new ish for
Andi, I think, personally, I believe that this change the paradigm shift that marketplaces bring to, um, Enterprise that he is a new exceptional change that is just very much at the beginning on. So it brings all together all the things I love. So that was a long description. But that is how I got now. And, um, I love what I do. And I'm never bored.
Never, ever, ever bored. Well, thank you for that. I mean, I love it, and I think it's fascinating to hear your journey. Um, you know, I'm jotting notes, and I think a couple things that came across when you were talking with self awareness, trust and network being so vital. Um, yeah, the fact that you've reached out to your network, built those relationships. And then they, too care enough about you to steer you in directions where they see growth. And you trusted that. And that's a big deal. And then even just being self aware of does this turn me on? Do I like this is this category? Is this the minds? Is this gonna make me wanna wake up in the morning? And if not, then I'm gonna shift and pivot and having the ability to shift in pitch these. I mean, these air key things that are so valuable for the next generation of women looking to get into business or tech. These are skills that just are invaluable. Really.
Thank you. Yeah, I agree. And I think a lot of people get head down into I think women especially married Get in that. I have to, um, proved myself. And they put their heads down and they work and they work and they work. And I see so many women that sacrifice themselves
their personal time, their family time. Um uh, who they are, what drives them? Because they're show head down and deliver, deliver, deliver. But they. It's like swimming in a giant lake and never coming up for air or just barely getting air going back under. And you never get up a notice that, like days have gone by years have gone by. Um, the seasons have changed like life has changed around you and you're not. And you're really not doing anybody a service When you do that, you're not doing a service to your job either, because you're not aware of where your true North is if you're never looking up and taking a breath
it really is a limiter. And I think a lot of women do that.
So I agree with you completely. And I know you touched on a couple of mentors that you've had along the way. What advice would you give someone looking to find a matter for the mentor for their own career? And, you know, it's not just something you can dial, you know, 1 800 mentor, and it happens. Good business idea, Mary. Let's go. I'm buying the domain. Okay.
What? It had been dry like Oh,
yeah, P M. Um,
it's a good question. Um, I think It's just taking a moment to stop and think about who you have seen that you perceive doing it well. And I was actually thinking about it last night. I was kind of thinking about people who have run across in my life and, you know, maybe I didn't actually uses them in turn. And at the time, though, I thought, man, they had it dialed in. And, um, maybe I even have some missed opportunities. I think, as I may be 1st 8 years, I accidentally got mentors. I didn't realize they were mentors. Um, it was just survival. I just felt very much the impostor syndrome, and I I needed to know what to do. And I needed guidance and people. I just had no other scoping skill but to ask my friends and I have a naturally social person, and I see this all the time. People are not naturally social, and they kind of say, I just don't know how to do that And so I think lengthen offer some good opportunities for that. You know, there's things that force people who are less social to get out of their shell like Technology Association of Oregon for example. So I guess that's the advice isn't clear cut. It's not. You are following my path
if you try to follow my path and you're not naturally social and you're not naturally comfortable asking questions and developing relationships, you're gonna not have success. You're going, you're going to struggle. But there are a lot of ways that there exists out there. I think more people are not like me, and they need help. And there are all these plate professional societies. Um, going back to my early first job, right? That, uh, lawyer, you know, Sorry, legal assistant job. I didn't know I was very insecure. Was 22 years old. I 21. I think I felt like I can't just talk to the lawyers in my office that'll show me is not knowing what I want to do. And so, joining the Oregon when the lawyers Association was a lifeline for
and just, you know, I mean, we're all humans on the planet trying to get through our day,
right, as they say, putting putting her pants on one leg. That's just what I was envisioning in my head. Absolutely. Yeah. And so
you know, I think that because not everybody is the same socially, there are professional organizations just for that and them. I encourage people to do that, you know? And, um, you know, I heard somebody say one time. Oh, I don't go to the Technology Association of Oregon meetings because it's just a bunch of people looking for jobs. And I said to the person, Well, why is that a problem? Well, none of them can help me find a job. And I said, Oh, well, if you're just getting to the point of networking at the point, you need a job. You're not doing it right. You don't network when you need a job that's too late.
Right now, you're actually right now
it's too late. You know that? Sort of like Christmas shopping at 11.
59 on Christmas
Eve, you're not going to get good gift
slant ahead a little
like even the week before a sign. But I mean, I think the networking some people see it as a destination
don't I see it as, uh, every day. You know, um, I work from home. I have for 14 years, uh, the dog and I don't have very good water Cooler conversations. Way try, but it's not great. Um, so I set lunches. I have no intention of acting any of these people for jobs. They have become my friends. But, you know, I've got a friend that works at Pala Lawful networks. We go to lunch once a month, got another friend, um, in another business, and we go to lunch once every two months, and I don't even think it has to be a prescribed thing where you kind of set it on occasion, but making sure you do it, you know, every few weeks that you touch base with other people and get out of your office. Networking is not having you can have your in office networking. And that's important, right? Cause you might want another job that the company Rhett. But but you need to get outside of your company. You cannot just network inside. And so you gotta find what your natural ways of kind of negotiating the world socially And that's the thing you go. D'oh! It doesn't have to be anything innovative and different. You know,
you play tennis, if you play tennis, find a woman in your field that place in it. You know,
it's great advice. So, what would you say have been some of the biggest challenges along the way in your career? Or that you even face today?
Ah, the hard question. I mean, there's biggest challenge is purely as an employee. Um, And then there's the biggest challenges of the woman. Um, what would you like? You want to
focus on the woman after you get out of my
and my clear
Let's go is woman because I think the audience is clearly women who are tuning in. So I think, yeah, we can all really
Okay, So I mean, there's some people there like it's the same women and man weeks. We have the same issues and yeah, we d'oh, but women particularly. I feel like, you know, um, there is and ever changing landscape of politics at any given company that are totally different for us. You know what it's like to have a baby, um, and come back to work, right? Those kinds of things, but, um, just artist, much of happening to men, it's different. And by the way, men have their own issues like I'm not saying it's Men don't have their own right. They've got their own things to navigate. We don't understand,
Um, I think the biggest challenges have been for me. Some of it is overcoming my own worry that I might be perceived as not working this hard of men because I have a family. And a lot of that is honestly, I think, culture of the company and making the right choice. But it's also a bit in my own head of worrying. People worry about things that they don't write. And so I think early in my career, that was very real. I had a coworker once told me that I needed to be less personal. This entire interview has been about me telling you to be personal. So you know, it depends again that had to do the culture of the company that, um, I think it's that it's checking myself. Am I doing? Am I acting a different way because I'm worried about perception of me balancing my working life? Um, and being authentic and true to myself, My kids and my husband are my most important there. My wife. Why do anything you know I love check. It's my second. Why my number one? Where is my family? I cannot work somewhere That does not support my way. Um, and I think people need to be really true to themselves about that. Like it. There's always another job in a good economy. In a bad economy. We can have another discussion about that surviving about economy.
in a good economy. If it's not the right fit, don't stay. It's
worth your time.
You and I work in the tech space. How would you say? Yeah, heck is changing the future landscape of the jobs for the upcoming women who are looking to get into business in Tech. And I know that's a huge question.
Yeah, it is a huge question having this discussion with someone just this last week. Actually, um, we're getting more and more automated, right? A eyes here. If you don't know that, it let me be clear. Jobs repetitive. Even if you're a general practitioner as a medical doctor rate the that job, that job will be heavily automated in the next 10 years. Um, you have to recognize that, um, you know, You know what? You're good at him. What's your secret sauce? And be willing to evolve that over time. And if your secret sauce of who you are, what makes you special becomes very repetitive. It is likely. But it would be something that could be, you know, turned over to Annie. I type application or or, you know, server machine learning like Watson or something
Right? Um, you know, for example, workflow automation, Um, your project manager and you have always just kept track of schedules. And that's kind of what you're saying is probably not too far off in the next 10 years that something will be able to do that. And they're already products to do that right? But not usually need a human to kind of like ride on top and make sure everything's accurate. But, you know, I think automation Israel and it's coming. I think some women coming out of school right now. What I see happening is that data I remember and you and I have this conversation and that really, like around 2011 Remember in Intel, according the term big data, my perception was it started Intel big data and remember about a year later, I started telling people I would be clear. Data is no longer big.
It's huge. It's
and then about
a year later,
like, I'd like to let you all know
that we have reached the point
of data being enormous.
It is no longer here just now in Northern,
right, and now it's just
ridiculous. Great. Yeah, it's just a joke.
How big anus, right? And why that's relevant to your question is that there's so much data now that, like, I think, as I'm sitting here in my office, I can't even count the number of connected devices.
literally, I think I'm sitting around in a 10 by 10 office. I am sitting around probably 15 devices. Now, that might seem extreme to you, but you would be surprised. I have a digital frame. That's a device that has firmer capturing and collecting its own data. Right? I've got an electric that's on you
to call. I've
got a phone. Oh, I've got two printers. Uh, you know, these things are all in their own, right? Right? Got my peds could in front of me again. Apple watch. They're all collecting and sending data and connecting out to the world of the Internet to get up, to tell the world what's happening to them Right now, they're all trying to fix themselves. There's a problem. My printer here probably talking to China right now to get the latest and greatest former
updates. And and so
I'm kind of for about the last five years realized that like our lives have becoming about managing these machines, and it is really complicated and that we're scratching the surface. So for your audience of women out there, the jobs that are going to be available and are available around managing data, it's only going to get bigger, right? I think we've barely scratched the surface, so I think automation I o t data. If you find yourself into those areas, um, that's where it that if you had asked me this question 10 years ago, I would have been It's all about the personal computing devices becoming like ipads and, you
know, sell phone will get bigger.
All right. Uh, cell phones are getting bigger. Watches are becoming phone aware. And, um, connecting to your phones and computers are becoming tablets. Right hand held. No, keyboard, maybe even 12 years ago, right? And I'll tell about that kind of evolution and change that, that the future is all about data. Um, and how that date is gonna, like both complicate our lives and make him better. You know, unfortunately, I'll text sort of brings a layer of management with it if
you could find
your way into that. Yeah, that I think, is really where things were going. And there won't be any jobs in that letter. Redundant because it's new.
Uh, you know, I think it's important to, though, that they prepare themselves or recognized or, I guess, align themselves. If they are self aware that tech is fast paced, it's changing. Are they good with that? Because you do have to be fast, too. Good morning. Yeah, multitask. You need to be able to Mira learn constantly learning. So you think
a point. I've read a lot. I read a lot. I read a lot about the changing. I'm reading a book right now called soon ish. Um, it's not because of my job. I just really like Mason Emerging technology, right? It's some it's interesting, and this thing is all about like different categories of, like, space exploration and all kinds of things. Oh, just constantly reading and late can I hate to keep? You know, that's not because I work for Microsoft. Lengthen is just a great way to stay up on new It just it. Just see trends. Be aware and reach out to your network. You're having lunch. What do you see? Changing. Oh, like honestly, when I was in college, I don't know, maybe business development, like I do now existed. I couldn't see it. If you had asked me if I wanted to be in business development, I would've laughed and said, What are you talking about? I wonder what that is, right? I
idea what you're taught, What that is. Um and, you know, it's even marketing is changing. You know,
you'll have their marketing
tools, right that are becoming very canned and easy. You and put your information. It spits out websites, right? You can use square now and get a pretty decent website in about half an hour. Like when you and I first met, Uh, what, 10 years ago. Now?
yeah, I think it's been 10 years ago exactly. Making a website was like You had to hire a person and they, like, used code and built a website. It took a while.
Oh, absolutely, definitely was entrenched in that world for a while. Yes, so let let me shift gears a little bit because I want to play a position, a question that I think aligns with one of your strongest skills, too. When it comes to negotiating, I think you're really good at that. Um, negotiating plays an important role in daily work from having to get, you know, other organizations within a company to either, like your ideas supported financially or just not be a roadblock. But I think for the audience here negotiating your salary, what tips do you have for someone young who might be hungry for a job, or even someone who's been in the business a while but just doesn't like to talk about money? What is your eyes around negotiating?
Oh, that's hard for people. My goodness, there's a couple things I see is re occurring. Same than all my friends, not just women. Uh, they have a hard time singing their praises. I had a friend, a male friend, meaning well the other day and he said, Should I talk about my MBA in my Lincoln profile? Did you not get your MBA goes? Yeah, but I shouldn't brag about it. And I'm like, if you can't brag about it on your length in profile, where can you if you didn't think you should brag about it? Why did you spend the $150,000 to go to Kellogg? Right? What's the point? If you weren't gonna tell people So you know, first off, you are only as good at negotiating as you. You're the other parties, perceived value of you. So your job is to help them understand
you are the person you know. Why are you the car they should buy? And we don't like to think of ourselves as a product. But in this world, that is exactly what we are. We are products, and we're trying to tell ourselves to someone else. And so therefore, you need to create every possible laying you can to create awareness about who you are and and to sell yourself. Okay, that starts. You cannot negotiate from a power position If you have not made clear why you are strong and important. You know why you are so it's sort of like when you go in any job interviewer, any salary negotiation, negotiation or anything, you want to go in with a position of impact. So if you're in a job and you're trying to get a new salary you go in with, here's my impact. Like, this is Andy, By the way, you should be thinking about your impact and everything. You do everything you d'oh! Because any task like I had a friend once that said she read every single email every day. Sometimes she would work 16 hours a day to do so. I thought, Oh, I didn't notice until hire you to reading up? What do you mean, even the really good friends? And she does. What do you mean a genuine would understand And I said was every one of those e mails directly did it directly impact the company and what you were trying to accomplish that you had agreed with your boss through your goals? Well, no. Well, then why did you read them all?
why did you spend time reading and responding? I get skimming and making sure that you you know, But we all could probably say at least 1/3 of the email we get at least is B s and has nothing to do with what we have to accomplish in the daily. Given, you know, any given day that's your life to you. You don't read every single email in your personal life. If you did, you'd never have time to do your job. So, um so anyway, so I think you have to start with that basis like no, your own value. No, your impact. Write it down, write it down monthly Right down. I actually do it once a week. Very down. The things I did that week that were impactful it helps me for him the next week and then But the end of a month or a six month period, I'm able to say, Here's the impact I haven't I'm on the right path now. I'm going into that negotiation on the salary. Know what people are making around? You don't have to ask your friends that can be very hard for people. There are websites that you can look it up. They they tend to all be a little on the low side. So if you're making 75,000 or 100,000 for eating math $100,000 a year in the website, you know salary dot com or whatever for your area says. But 120 is average. That's usually just salary. That's not bonuses. Do you can kind of assume it's anywhere from 20 to 50% low.
No, no, what? The value is your value. Know what people are making and then go in with that? And then the negotiating part comes in in be strong And what, you know, your worth is if you feel like you're underpaid, you probably are. So be ready. You've got to sort of be ready to take the step like Okay, if I can't get what I need, I'm gonna go somewhere else, and you don't have to threaten. You just kind of go like, if I you know, this is what I need to do this job. And, um, if that's not possible, that I need to start looking elsewhere, you don't even have to say it. You need to know it intrinsically. You need to know your value. Um, but I think negotiated in general is, um, is always very important to tryto help the other person really want and desire what you have and that put you in a position of power, right? It's a little bit hard. We could have a whole hour on negotiate. Really? Because I do that every day in my drop. Right? I'm in business development at night. You know, I think whether you're negotiating a car deal or your condition for your salary, it's the same principles of psychology. And and I'm not even hurt to have people take a class on negotiating, right, Because But the biggest thing I see women do is they undervalue themselves. They do not want to market themselves. Don't want to say what they're good at. Um, they, uh, will routinely, um, just just kind of undervalue themselves. And And that's just you shouldn't do that.
You didn't do that. Those are great tips. Ah, and they hit home, you know, for me personally, I I see myself, you know, probably every year, evolving and taking some of these action steps that just didn't come naturally to me because I was raised to be quieter or take my God or be thankful. Or so it's a struggle. You threw me at my age. I mean, this isn't easy. This is something you have to work on.
Well, you know what? You're right. And I think sometimes, um, I sometimes think Okay. What? I feel like I'm underpaid. What? Maybe why don't I think about exactly, like, what do I do for the business? What does this job do you know, and what could I quantify? My impact. Sometimes that's hard to do. But sometimes it depends on the role you're in, right? Well, for sales people, it's really easy. I have sold $10 million last quarter for last year. Whatever it is, right, I killed a $1,000,000. My salary is $200,000. That absolutely I am worse that salary, because I'm making so much money. But maybe you're not a sales person. Maybe your product manager. Okay, well, that product is expected to make $20 million in the first year. And my without my guidance, we wouldn't hit the, you know, really, States. And the thing I see time and time again is people do not write about themselves in in terms of impact. They just don't know how to do it. And and I think it's because they've learned to use adjectives in a soft way. And women especially have learned, like collaborate right
would drive. I
drive. She resumes all time drove,
collaborated, build, Um, but
it's like I'll read these resumes a lot and go. And when I mentor women, I go, What did you actually D'oh. So you drop some stuff and collaborated. What does that mean in the big picture? And when you begin to see that and start to frame the way you talk about your accomplishments, sometimes you don't need to negotiate anymore because they speak for themselves. You're sending a status report to your boss. It says, like I you know, I completed a course on, you know, strength based training, the strength finder. So what? So we all took that class, and I used that to affect my relationship with my partners. And now I am, you know, focusing on building the portfolio in a different way. And that had the this impact. And it is not easy. It is not easy. And it takes time. It really does. It doesn't come naturally to anybody. Um,
that is, if
you have already been freezing your worth in that way, your day to day cop accomplishments, you will shine and then a time for review and you'll get the bigger, um, you know, truly, you will get a bigger salary. Um, the other thing is, in one time in my entire career one time. And I think I've told you this. Did I get offered a race? One. No one comes knocking on
your door and says, You're amazing. You
are all right. It goes against the grain of every company. If I can get you to do it for less, I will. By
the way, if you
work 70 hours and we can do it for less, that's even better. Because I'm really getting my arrow I out of this employee. Right, So nobody ever is gonna come and bring you that race. I have talked to so many people that like Well, I'm just working really hard, and I'm gonna get a raise because I'm working hard. You can work really hard and get fired.
working hard on the wrong things or you're not making that impact that you should be making right? So And if you don't ask court, you won't get it.
So Well, we only have time for maybe one, maybe two questions. So I'm gonna ask you, uh, do you work on your personal brand? And if so, why is it so important? I mean, I think we've kind of it's kind of been a story throughout this, but let me let me ask you that for yourself.
Yes. It's an easy answer. Yes, 100%. I work on my personal brand here. Um, take opportunities to be visible both in your company and outside your company. It's scary people, cause that puts you on, like, a bit of, you know, the people who are risk averse. That's like, Oh, everybody's gonna be watching one. If I feel if you don't do it, you're definitely not going to rise up. You will stay right where you are. If not anything, nothing else. Actually, probably you will decline in your career. If you don't look for opportunities to work on your Brent, you must have a public present. Langston is a great way to do that. I highly recommend the premium account because it lets you see how when you make a change on your lengthen. You go and look and see how people are viewing you, and that is a direct easy. It's just like a website you can see. Okay, I added to my job description that I negotiate with partners and my Lincoln and I Post posted an article about negotiating with partners and my lengthen went way up. Okay, so it's very easy to see direct correlation when you have it. If it is expensive, I think it's like 40 bucks a month. But if you're trying to really work on your career, it is really the best way to get direct feedback. Like you'll see, you'll also developed a network of people that are liking your stuff. I've got a woman and Australia that follows me, and she reached out to me and said, I just want to follow you and be able to stay in touch of you. I'm learning and I was like a great I don't know you at all, but I'm happy to help, right? So, um, and I consider that part of my network now. I needed advice and hurry of expertise, which happens to be financial. I would absolutely not feel one bit awkward about e mailing her and saying, Hey, can you give me some of my firm it? So, yes, the answer is yes. 100%. Um, there are other ways that I think you could do. You could have a personal website. Um, you can look for speaking opportunities, you know, but it starts with having the table. Stakes are linked in profile. The other thing, I tell people, Please recognize that just because a company gave you a job title 20 years ago,
years ago, a year ago does not mean that it is relevant to the rest of the world. So if you were chief collector of data and information at 80 and T, but you worked as an operator, E. I don't know what that really means. And so titles are really not to change your title to be more appropriate for the rest of us to understand what you do, it's OK. It's not lying. Don't go say you were chief information officer when you were really an operator.
Making relevant. I mean, it's silly. Nobody cares that it Look, if I'm trying to hire you today as a business analyst. That could mean a lot of things. I want their specific. I've got a friend right now whom he is an amazing, amazing business development person in cloud partnerships. And he there was a job opening another company, and I referred him in and they said, G, I'm sorry. I don't know why you sent us this guy.
What are you talking about? He's amazing. I worked with him for 2.5 years and we build programs together. He, like, really knows how to do this if he is literally your perfect candidate. And they said, Well, his title said Senior director of
Management. We're looking for big, dumb a guy. Go. Ah, I called him up. Change your
title? Just flat. He still had started
manager. Well, technically, my internal title code is senior director of product Management. Four cloud partnerships. Do you ever write requirements? Any point in the day? Are you actually creating a product roadmap? Know what do you do? I'm business moment. Okay. Could we agree that your actual outside title of senior director of
Well, yeah, but I can't change that. And why
is there a
title, please. I don't
know about that. Runs around checking people.
You know, Phil.
embarking on updating his Lincoln.
you know, But that's gonna help you both internally and
into inside jobs. Yoshino said
Yes. All right, Time for last question. If you could tell your 20 year old self anything, what would it be?
Oh, wow. I think, honestly, that is very specific to me. I am a comply of an obsessive need toe Hold on. Not like go tell something is solved. I am tenacious to a fault and it said it is the biggest thing I have I had to work on to. The person is knowing when to let go and say I can't do that. I can't do it because I can't do it or I can't do it because coming on allowing me to do it or I can't the bigger one Marias. I can't win that person over. I really like to kind of help everyone I'm working with. See what I'm working on. A specific project is good for them and get them to like want to be excited about it, just like me and knowing myself. This is also very important learning. I've learned about who I am. I'm a expressive, happy, want everybody to enjoy the job and a driver. I want to get it done. And I don't if you give me a desk, a deadline on the destination, come hell or high water. I want to meet that deadline in that destination. It's really an important part of who I am. But there are times that I have hope myself because I have been so tenacious. I've changed to get their different ways. But like, you know, sometimes you have to know when you're baking a souffle and you have just put too much saying flour in it. And I don't care how many minutes to bake it for how you stop in the middle and takeaway flower or you've just gotten on the wrong path. And that could be said for me and stain and jobs for too long that I shouldn't have. It could be said for me in sticking with a person who is tearing me down and in work. Um, personal life, too, right where you you know, my friend calls, um, emotional vampires, uh, at work and at home, right? Not my my husband's not. But you know what I mean
In my personal
life, Um, and just knowing when to sort of say, I can't win that it's okay to say uncle, right? It's okay to like, don't let somebody break your arm to be say, I finish it like sometimes I need to let go. That's my biggest advice to myself. A 20 is like, see the situation for what it really is and pivot and change direction because, you know, staying on that course. I only ended up in you hitting a giant iceberg and it was never gonna be any different. And you could have seen that four months ahead or eight months before and and you saw it. But you still stayed on that same course. She could see the iceberg coming, But you didn't stop.
That is so great. It's been awesome having you on the show. If someone wanted to connect with you. I know you mentioned linked in, but we'll make it if
you like Facebook, the work and it has the private messages and I treat mine as I do text messages and, um, Facebook messages. It's gonna work. So if I get a message, I see it just like I see any other message, and I will respond. So, yeah, um, feel free. And it's called up. I think it's called private message. Some people call it direct message, so yeah, the feel free to connect with me. Um, I will say I don't accept every connection on like this, but you can send me a message and asked me to connect with your reason, and then I'll accept it. But there is fraud on lengthen,
I don't just blindly accept friend requests or sort of a connection. Credit requests, I should say, by the way, P s a don't accept every lengthen you get. Validate. Validate Why they're asking you to connect. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate your time and support and sharing in signs from your career. This is gonna help the next generation of women in business and tech and just thanks for being there for me over the years.
Oh, I mean so much to be marrying for you having me out and also our friendship and longtime collaboration and that you have taught me so much. So it's, uh, you know, it's definitely you're one of my experts,
know that when I have questions, I call you. So thank you for doing that all these years to cause I've learned an enormous amount from you.
Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you like their show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at to be bolder dot com. That's the number two little be bolder dot com.