Career Podcast Featuring Madhavi Rajan an engineering leader to a product manager & strategist : Women In Tech.

Have you ever wondered how to advance and grow your career in tech? How to self-advocate and lead others? Be inspired and tune in and listen to Madhavi’s point of view on diversity and inclusion and the importance of team culture, and the importance of being in an environment that gives recognition for work well done. Hear her tips on navigating relationships in your career and across organizations.

In episode #76 of the 2B Bolder Podcast,  Madhavi Rajan shares her career story from a startup to a large corporation, from engineer to product & strategy, and the importance of being agile. She talks about her love of solving problems,  the importance of having an insatiable curiosity & how having an engineering mindset has helped her move forward in her career.  She recommends that women nail down the what, then define the why and be curious, and the how will fall into place.

Madhavi Rajan builds strategic vision for Intel’s Datacenter and AI Business Unit. She is a woman leader, purpose-driven to create business impact; she shares how she has successfully integrated her tech and business skills to build executable strategies for businesses & competitive products as she transitioned from an engineering leader to a product manager & strategist.

Enjoy the podcast.  Please share this podcast with others so we can continue to share inspiring career stories for the next generation of women in business and tech.

Connect with Madhavi Rajan on LinkedIn
Connect with Madhavi through her email.

The 2B Bolder Podcast provides first-hand access to some amazing women. Guests will include women from leading enterprise companies to startups, women execs, coders, account execs, engineers, doctors, and innovators.

Listen to 2B Bolder for more career insights from women in tech and business

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Transcript

Mary Killelea  00:01
Hi there, my name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech, 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up but to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation.  Hi there. Thanks for tuning in. Today I'm joined by an amazing woman in tech Madhavi Rajan. Okay, now first off, did I pronounce your name correctly?

Madhavi Rajan  00:42
First name correctly. Second name is Rajan.

Mary Killelea  00:45
Rajan (phoentically: rah-jin). Yes. Thank you so much. 

Madhavi Rajan  00:48
Yeah, it's Rajan. Yeah. 

Mary Killelea  00:50
Okay, well, you build strategic vision for Intel's data center and AI unit. You're an accomplished and dynamic leader driven by purpose and you strive to create business impact. You're skilled at inventing new revenue opportunities, creating customer centric and market focused strategies with a clear path to execution. You love building teams through influence, provide them with a vision and weaving them into a community to solve for a common goal. You've had experience working for an early startup, fine tuning your ability to be agile, you're comfortable with shifting between engineering and business leadership hats, leveraging innovative technologies to create solutions to problems that matter. And you want to lift as you climb, which is something that's dear to my heart, you mentor through Intel and leaders in the Stanford community, on applying strategic skills to develop a growth mindset and help navigate career transitions. You, like me, believe that education will bring quality; volunteering to fund educating underprivileged kids is one of your passions, to help build a better world, and I couldn't be more thrilled that you're here. So thank you for joining us. 

Madhavi Rajan  02:01
Thanks a lot Mary, for having me. 

Mary Killelea  02:03
Okay, so as I read in the intro, you've got, you know, you're an executive leader, you're a strategist and technologists with expertise in product development, R&D, and innovation. What drives your success?

Madhavi Rajan  02:17
For me, what drives my success? My being is my hunger to make an impact, and my curiosity to learn, I have this insatiable curiosity to learn, like I, I look for something new in every single thing that I see. And that's what keeps me going. And I try to connect the dots across, you know, and, yeah, that's what keeps me going.

Mary Killelea  02:45
That's fantastic. I literally, when you send this, I am imagining us as little girls on the playground being like buddies, and just going out and trying to figure out something new. Anyway, sorry to go back there. But okay, where did the passion for working in tech come from?

Madhavi Rajan  03:01
It starts from earliest age, I would say like my grandfather had a printing, you know, press in at home, like in our backyard, right. And he is an advocate. And he used to publish books, news articles, and so on and so forth. And, as I mean, I saw all of that growing up. And when I was entering my teenage years, I would say, there was this electronic printer, how all those different components of a printing press shrunk into one single, giant mission. Now comparing to our current standards was a giant mission, everything into one and then you type everything up and you'd load up one paper and it comes out. It was like, so fascinating. I still remember the first day when we got that printer home, and then we switched it on. And it was like, whoa, were we doing all of this? And, you know, like work of, you know, months just shrunk into a day or a few hours, right? So think the fascination started from there. And, yeah, it's been going, I'm still fascinated by tech. 

Mary Killelea  04:12
So talk to us about your career path. I know that you've made transitions from engineering to product management. And I know there's a lot of women out there who would like to kind of take that same transition or path but they're not sure how to make those transitions. So tell us about your journey. And then we'll dive a little bit more into it.

Madhavi Rajan  04:35
Sure. You can see that I kind of have a very unique career path I've been in the industry for like close to 19 years now I would say. I started off as an engineer and then I switched into product and strategy. Now think about it. I'm able to say all of that in one statement, but it took me years to get to where I am at right now. I have close to like 19 years of industry experience; of that I would say more than 12 plus was as an engineer. And I always wanted to, you know, like, I'm a people person, I love meeting people. And being an engineer and being the type of engineer I was, my career path would have been, you know, publishing more patterns. I loved what I was doing, because it kept me going working on the cutting edge technology all the time. But I always had this question in my head of like, am I enabling somebody with the tech that I have? I always, I think being an engineer, you always are like solving problems. And you see all of these problems pop up right in front of you in your life. And I'm like, "am I doing things that is actually fixing this problem? Whose problem am I solving," you know, like, so being the core engineering that I kind of felt that was a gap.  

And, and they say, like, things happen in your life for a reason. I was working on a really high profile project, wherein we were in the lab fixing things, and we were supposed to provide, you know, like, updates all the way to the CEO on an hourly basis. And middle of the night, I would say like eight or nine, then at night in the lab, they just come up and say like, "Hey, the project has canceled." We thought one of them was joking, right? We were like, Oh, you're just kidding me. You know, that can never happen. You know, they're waiting for an update. You know, we're supposed to provide this to the customer in a week and all that, and like, no, the project is canceled. I'm like, what, how did that happen? So that kind of gave like, huge, you know, like, blow to me. And then I'm like, Okay, how are these decisions being made? I mean, these are products that's been planned for years. And we've been putting this together. And it's almost at the final stages. Why did this happen? So where did we go wrong? So that insatiable curiosity, again, made me go dig up and figure out like, okay, what can I do to go fix it? Right? It's the combination of my curiosity and that engineering mindset, I guess.  So you talk about the discovering, you know, like the various roles and brought in that end to end process. How did you go about, I think that kind of holds back some people sometimes because they don't know how to get to point A to point B or the various roles in between. So how in your discovery, or where in your discovery, did you learn that information? Was it through informational interviews? Or like you said, reading about different companies? What was that? 

And so I went and I hunted for, how a product comes from end to end all the way from planning to the end, and what are the different roles each person in the organization does? So what should be my role in this thing? And what can I make? How can I make things differently? So that turn to go and understand things is when I decided that you know what I want to be in the product side, I want to be in that planning side where I love reading about the companies as a hobby or like, you know, just to, you know, like, for my educational purposes, then I'm like, okay, am I using any of this. So it kind of made me think like, oh, I'm actually connecting the dots across all the end to end of my personality, and where I want to go as well and make an impact as well. So that was the reason why I made the shift. So it was always the why, I guess. And then how it, how I made it happen. It took multiple years, multiple years of like, finding the right people finding the right opportunity, and then it happened, when I least expected.  

Mary Killela 8:26
So you talk about the discovering, you know, like the various roles and brought in that end to end process. How did you go about, I think that kind of holds back some people sometimes because they don't know how to get to point A to point B or the various roles in between. So how in your discovery, or where in your discovery, did you learn that information? Was it through informational interviews? Or like you said, reading about different companies? What was that?

Madhavi Rajan 8:56
So for me, nailing down what - nailing down what and then the why was where it was. Like, you know, it was like convincing myself first. Right, like, what is that I truly want to become and what do I really want to do? That was the first step. And once I had that in me, it was convincing the others right, and that was not easy. It took me years, right. And, and I never gave up. It took me like seven years, you know, to shift into product management. I was like, Okay, finally, I'm gonna just quit everything, go do my MBA, and that's what I'm gonna do to switch to product and the opportunity showed up, like I was, you know, like talking to our VP of product because I was at a start up and like, Hey, can you write me a recommendation letter, I'm planning to quit and they're right next to Stanford, I'm gonna go do an MBA and he was like, what for? Well, I want to switch to product management. And he was like, Okay, why do you need an MBA for that? I'm like, looks like that's what I need. And that's the, you know, it was the talking to the right people, I guess as well helps, right? And, and I was doing everything the product managers do working at a startup interacting with the customers. And you know, bridging the product market fit as an engineer, and like, just wear a different hat, you know. Do you know the team? Join the team, go do it. So it's a combination of talking to the right person. Be clear about the self awareness, be clear about what you want, and be clear about what your strengths are, and making sure that comes out. And yeah, it's a combination of all of that, I guess. And they say, like, I do believe in the world listens when you keep asking. And it somehow paves the way for you to make that happen. And it has happened to me a few times in my life. So I believe in it. Yeah.

Mary Killelea  11:03
So what are some of the roles and responsibility that you have? Yeah, in your current role.

Madhavi Rajan  11:08
So it's, that's a very, very interesting question. I wish I could make a list and see that. As an engineer, I would have been able to see it very clearly. But in all my product and strategy roles, and I work for a startup, and once you work for a startup that will early stage startup like me, you never have like a set of defined roles and responsibilities. And it's the agility that startup trains you, you know, like you go, you know, like, Okay, this is a set of problems, I want you to go solve it. That's how I get hired in every role. And then I go look at it, and it's like, no, these are not your problems, your problems are these, this is your end goal. And sometimes sometimes people don't even have clear end goals, it's like go defining those end goals. And then mapping where in the end to end again, and looking at where the gaps are going and, you know, changing things. But if I would, were to summarize, it's not about just generating revenue with the current products, or solving the current customer problems, but also how the industry is changing, what is happening out in the world. Change is the constant right now, especially with the current environment that's happening. But the invention of so many different things, you know, like, the boundaries of different industries are merging. So it's in my role to look at all of these vast, wide range of changes that are happening, and that my background, I go in depth as well, to understand. And the fact that I have worked across multiple products, I try to bridge all those, you know, connection points and identify new opportunities and get more creative with, like, the new business models that are coming up out there. So that's, yeah, that's a long answer. But yeah. 

Mary Killelea  13:07
So what is one thing that are what are the things that you love about your role, and what might be one of the things that surprised you, or maybe, is a challenge that you didn't see or expect?

Madhavi Rajan  13:19
The variety and the opportunity to learn is what I love about my role. You know, today, I will be looking at a healthcare segment and figure out, okay, how does the AI products that we are making for Intel is going to be applicable here? Versus look at the finances market? How is it gonna, you know, like, and I use what we have currently? Or what are the gaps? What, you know, what are the things that we need to add, and so forth? The variety... the challenges, I would say, the variety back again, you know, like it can, initially it was like, overwhelming. Then I have to create, like a method to it. How do I catalog it? How do I categorize it? What are the processes that I can put in my own head to organize it to go solve it, you know? So that is where all these, you know, people get scared to do career transitions, and they're like, oh, okay, if I move from engineering to business, what value can I add? I don't have an MBA or you know, but some of these are like tools that comes out of your engineering training. Especially I was in research and development kind of background, so you are like, testing multiple experiments. So you are gathering a lot of data and then you have to come up and create a pattern out of it. So it is that it's those transferable skills, right? Before it was like a particular tech industry, but now you're looking at multiple tech industries. So what are the key things that you need to be thinking about what-what matters and what doesn't matter? You know, it's the same thing. It's just different targets, I guess. Yeah.

Mary Killelea  14:56
Mentors are very important. Have you had mentors in your life? And if you have, how have you attracted them? Or built those relationships?

Madhavi Rajan  15:07
That's an interesting question. I know like, I get this a lot how, because when people see my career transitions and stuff, like, oh, somebody, you know, like, mentored and, you know, like, fine tuned my methodology and all that, it's, it's just the opposite. I never had a single mentor in my career. I never asked somebody to be like, you know, be my lifelong mentor or something like that. I've always learned from people, right, maybe I could call it a spot mentorship, or, you know, something that I learned, but there are a lot of folks who inspire me, and you know, whom I follow a lot, something that I find in common, and I go learn from them. Sometimes something that they have published and sometimes it's just observing them. So it's a lot of people during different circumstances, right, I mean, I learn from my toddler as well. I keep telling people, she's a constant reminder of like, ask, I know, like, she has figured out a way to ask her what she wants, even though she cannot talk yet. Like, you know, yeah, thanks. Thanks for reminding me. I have to ask anybody don't ask people don't know what I want. So it's that. So yeah.

Mary Killelea  16:23
How have you dealt with setbacks over the years? Or how do you approach challenges or obstacles?

Madhavi Rajan  16:29
It is hard. I think, especially right now, when I open my LinkedIn, everybody is posting about having their job being lost. If I am like, in search of words, to console them, some of them I'm really short, like, how did YOU lose the job? You know, it is it is some of that. So, yes, like life just definitely throws a lot of surprises at you, or, you know, setbacks, like you said. I've had a ton of those, both in my personal and my career life. But interestingly, something best, something I had never even expected of has come out of it. You know, like, it took me more than- it took my husband and I to have a kid more than seven years again, right? Somehow the six and seven plays quite a bit in my life. You know, so and I actually moved to a startup and I was trying to have a kid and you know, I developed a long time relationship with my team, and my boss and boss's bosses at my previous company, and they were like, Madhavi you don't want to change in go to a startup at this time, you know, like... But I was like, I need to change, you know, like, I need some kind of movement in my life. And like, yeah, so Okay, whenever you decide you want to come back, just give us a call. And I'm still in touch with all my, you know, previous, company colleagues. So that's how it happened. And interestingly, I had my baby when I was at the startup, and I was able to manage everything, you know, in life preps, you, I guess, you know, first stop. So, yes, it hurts as it is difficult, but just believe in you, and believe in yourself, believe in who you are, and what you bring to the table. That's what it has come down to for me at least. I go and take stock of all the things that uniquely me, that builds my confidence to propel myself ahead.

Mary Killelea  18:28
That's awesome. What advice do you have for working in ambiguous situations where you're building the plane, let's say, while you're flying it. Since to me that seems like so every day in tech.

Madhavi Rajan  18:42
It is, it is. And especially for people who do that career transition, right? It was hard initially for me, because there is a lot of unknowns. And sometimes you don't know what you don't know. And that's where the startup really helps, because you're facing that on an everyday basis. And then you kind of start getting comfortable with it, because everybody around you is facing the same thing. So you just got to be open about it, start talking about it. And that kind of helped me with my strategy roles as well, right? Because it's much more broader strategy. It's not you looking at one single product or one single roadmap or stuff, but it is more broad and more of like, long term, right. So then there is lot more ambiguity out there. I started putting things in paper when I'm like having a discussion. I mean, it scares me even think to think about that right now. I started putting blank slides with just frameworks, you know, like, okay, dot-dot-dot, equals to a straight line. So what are all the dots where the gaps are, then you start putting things it starts shaping things up. It's it's like solving a jigsaw puzzle for me. You know, I put a LinkedIn post about it as well. You start collecting groups of things that start to show some kind of match either color or character, or you know, things like that, and you start putting it and you start talking to people, you will be surprised how it resonates. And, you know, like, I've had conversations where one of the execs was like, Madhavi, just forward that to me now. And I forwarded it and he started filling it for me, we started discussing it like, okay, these are the things that I know of, let's start putting this together. And let's start collecting that. So it just opens up conversations where the puzzle starts coming together, just be comfortable with the ambiguity, just acknowledge it first, and then start working on it. It will start, you know, like, coming together.

Mary Killelea  20:46
Being a woman in tech, you're a minority. What advice do you have for women to not let that hold them back?

Madhavi Rajan  20:57
You know, it's so interesting when you say it, I never heard of that until four years back. They said, like, oh, you're a URM. I'm like, what is the URM? Or you're an underrepresented minority? Like, in what way? I mean, I come from India, we are like, the most populous country? What are you talking about? I don't understand, you know, I started thinking, like, minority is like, my race or something. And then they have to sit down and explain it to me, like you are a woman in tech, that's a minority. Interesting, nobody told me about that. Even in India, you know, like, Yes, we had a lesser number of female engineers in my engineering school, but that was more related to people not able to afford is what i thought.  It's interesting, right? But it is a real problem here. It is a real problem. I mean, my dad never, you know, like, saw me and my brother differently. He just saw us like, hey, I want you to like study, right? That was more important for him. And he was okay with whichever interest my brother and I were developing it, and he funded it. And now I see that as a problem. And I'm like, this is interesting. And I have two daughters. And my daughter comes and says, like, you know, girls are supposed to do this, and boys are supposed to do do this, I'm like, where did you get that from? You know, then I have to sit and explain to her, you know, like, this is what I do. This is what dad does. And these are the things you know, my husband and I have like equal partnership with everything. Like I cook, he cooks, I clean, he cleans. And but whoever has time to do what. So it's sitting and explaining all that.  

And tech is not scary. And I think more women need to get into tech to solve some real problems. You know, like, I know, founders who are looking at, you know, like creating tech for fertility treatments and stuff. So if you don't know, then you can't solve the problem. So we need more women in tech to solve real problems. And when you solve those problems, it's not just women's problems, you're solving human problems as well, because it's a family problem. You know, once you reduce those things, I think, for me, DEI, women in tech, all those need to have measurable and accountable stuff as the end result. It's not, you know, still, hey, I'm going to help you with your imposter syndrome. Like it's not just a women's problem, men have imposter syndrome too. Men have confidence issues too. So are we measuring? Or do programs based on that? It needs to be more on like, okay, why don't we create some small okay- how do you run a startup? How do you get onto boards? You know, those are the things that you need to help more women to get involved with to create real changes, right, because it's a, it's a ripple effect, that's going to happen. Once you have women leaders in these places, they are going to be solving problems, which they see more of compared to men, and then it's going to help all of us together.

Mary Killelea  23:57
That's great. And I'm going to shift a little bit here. When you're looking at a new role or throughout your career path, when you're considering a role, do you have like non negotiables? Like it has to meet these certain things in order for me to consider taking this role.

Madhavi Rajan  24:13
From all my experience, if I have to name a couple of things, I would say the team culture and being recognized for the value that I get I bring to the table. So I like, especially in the business roles, there are not a lot of women, you know, like we talk about STEM a lot, but actually it should be business roles that women need to be a lot more of, I would say. Because, you know, I get asked multiple times, like I haven't grown enough gray hair and they're like, oh, you just come from the startup. I'm like, no, no, no. I've been in the industry for close to 19 years startup was just my previous experience, you know. Like so it's the fact that you have to explain to people more and more of and so I realize like when the team understands the value that you bring in, and for me, it's like I said, I learned from my kids too. It's not about the number of years of experience, it's what your life has exposed you to. Every single person has a unique perspective based on the things that they have learned in their life. So that's what inclusion means for me. A true inclusive team would recognize that and value every single person. So that is very important. And they say strategy eats culture any time, which is really, really, really true. Through those experience, however good the tech, maybe if you don't have the right culture, there is no business. So those things are really important. Yeah.

Mary Killelea  25:48
That's awesome. So navigating big organizations and cross team collaboration is a big factor. Quite challenging, but especially in a big business, it's hard work. Any tips on building strong relationships and influencing people? The map idea is fabulous. And I love that because you know, people are moving around. And so having a constant updated, like, Who's Who and who do I need to nourish, and touch in with? That's really great advice. Speaking of advice, what's the best career advice that you've ever received?

Madhavi Rajan  26:05
It's not one thing, I would say it's a lot of things. But to recognize, I mean, you have to make sure that it's not a transactional relationship. You know, it could start off as a transactional one, but you need to understand, again, the value each person is bringing to the table. You might encounter a person who might not be adding a lot of value in a particular given conversation. But that doesn't mean that you could discount who that person is or what that person is bringing in. So it's recognizing that and thinking long term, you know, like, okay, I tried to, you know, include this person, and this or try to get this particular data from this person, I'm not giving it to discount it, nourish that relationship, I would say. And for me, it's like, I create a stakeholder map, you know, like, and it could vary based on the projects that you're running, but at a broader level, if you are representing a business unit, you have a stakeholder map, right? Like there are similar representatives that you need to work with across the different business unit, teams within your business unit, people who would be your peer, people who would be reporting to you. Create that, you know, like different concentric circles, right, and where each person plays and how when what you could leverage that person's help, what you could contribute as well. Give as much as you can, so that you could leverage, right. So that is that is really important, nourish the relationship. Don't be a perfectionist. It was a very difficult one for me, especially with my heavy heavy tech background, I guess. Be comfortable being uncomfortable and understanding that as you grow and take up more responsibilities, the ambiguity is a very, very natural thing. Right, acknowledging that, yeah.

Mary Killelea  28:29
Let's focus on transitioning through kind of navigating your career. Like when you transition into a new role, do you approach it with like, a 30-60-90 day measurement or goal? What is your advice around that?

Madhavi Rajan  28:45
I always try that, but it never worked for me. It definitely helps, people say like, you know, concentrate on those small wins, and so on. And I've tried that, it helps. But strategy roles are much, much more ambiguous than that. You can create structure maybe for a few things, if something that you're working on already has some feet to it, yes. But if there are some things which are like my, like, I worked on an acquisition for Intel, right? Then I had to look at like the go to market strategy, start recording a 30-60-90 plan. And then you were working with, you know, like, completely existing money making industry with Intel and you're integrating a new software business. Never had a SaaS business at Intel, and you're acquiring that. So how do you put those two together and start putting, like actionable 30-60-90? It started with one. It helped me get my stakeholders look and stare at something. But we went into all sorts of tangents and different ways to prioritize, so they started getting comfortable with it. I'm like, okay, at least I gave them like something to you know, like, name down and start putting steps together. So that's where being okay with changes and that agility helps I guess.


Mary Killelea  30:15
Great! How do you deal with career work/life balance?

Madhavi Rajan  30:20
Magic (laughs). I wouldn't say I have perfected it. Definitely... but I've learned to prioritize things. You know, like everybody has 24 hours in a day. It's about how you are balancing it. Sometimes I, you know, you do have to prioritize on an hourly basis, right? It's one of those like- okay this hour I'm going to be doing this, the next hour I'm going do be doing this. And getting that focus. I'm going to switch off all the windows and I'm going to be looking at just that. That's a hard one to do, so I keep trying to practice it as much as I can. So that's the only way. You know, like, focus and prioritize.

Mary Killelea  31:12
Is there anything that you would do differently if you were starting over again today?

Madhavi Rajan  31:18
No, no, not really. I've had those things in my head before in the past and then interestingly, life has all these darts that it keeps throwing at you in different parts of your life. And it starts to connect somehow. You know even a small piece you would've learned from this place somewhere in a completely even non work-related, and we don't know that you would be using it at work. So, no. I don't think so, I don't think so.

Mary Killelea  31:52
That's a beautiful thing! That's a beautiful thing that you can say, there's nothing I would do differently, I'm very happy with the path I took. What advice do you have for women who want to build their tech acumen?

Madhavi Rajan  32:04
Don't be afraid of it! Especially tech acumen... I would say I kind of see that as a skill than a talent. You know, like you've got to be able to acknowledge it. Your soft skills, I don't know why people call it as a soft skill, I think it came from the military terms right? But, those are the hard ones to get. Those should be the hard skills, you know? Like you can't change an extrovert from being an introvert or vice versa. But each one has their strengths, you've got to know how to play it. So that is a completely different one, those are the ones much more harder to train one personally. But tech, it's a skill. Right? You want to get into programming? There are multiple certificates out there, go learn about that. You want to learn about AI? Go learn about it. It's about dedicating the time for it and going and learning that. That's the way I see it. It's probably the training that I had as an engineer, I'm able to see it more comfortably, but once a person faces and does it, it would be the same. I'm sure in 6 months or a year, once they have done it, they're going to be telling me the same thing. It's like, okay learn ABCD's. Learn from the book, so you start doing programming, it's the same thing. You have a certain set of like instruction sets, you've got to start learning them, putting them together, and there you go! You're a tech person now. Right? So yeah.

Mary Killelea  33:35
Alright so we're at our last question, my favorite question. What does 2B Bolder mean to you?

Madhavi Rajan  33:41
2B Bolder means, take chances. You know, for me, it's one life. I don't want to fit into somebody else's mold. I want to define the mold myself. You know, like, yes that person has done that, or this is the norm, this is what people do. I'm like, okay fine. I don't have to follow that now. I can create my own. What if I don't follow it and do something, what would happen? Try it. So that's what being bold means. I've done that all my life and I would love to continue it, I would continue it. Yeah.

Mary Killelea  34:18
Amazing. Amazing, amazing. You are amazing! How can someone get in touch with you?

Madhavi Rajan  34:24
My LinkedIn. My LinkedIn is my Facebook, so yes. I'll share the link with you.

Mary Killelea  34:33
I'll include it. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your journey.

Madhavi Rajan  34:38
Thanks Mary.

Mary Killelea  34:42
Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website, at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little b, bolder, .com.