2B Bolder Podcast : Career Visibility Strategies & Leadership Stories from Women in Business, Tech & Sports

#123 Dagnija 'Daggie' Lacis, A Pioneer in Tech: From Refugee to VP

• Dagnija 'Daggie' Lacis • Season 6 • Episode 123

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Daggie Lacey's life reads like a Hollywood script, yet her remarkable journey from refugee to tech pioneer is 100% real. In this captivating conversation, Daggie shares how fleeing Latvia as a one-year-old set her on an unexpected path toward breaking unimaginable barriers in the technology industry.

With disarming candor, she reveals how she became the first female programmer at Burroughs Corporation based on a $25 monthly salary difference—a decision that led to a series of glass-ceiling-shattering achievements. She recalls the moment when her boss confessed they'd never hired a female programmer before, explaining the battery of special tests she had to pass simply because of her gender.

The stories flow like chapters in an adventure novel: being blocked from presenting in Japan because "women cannot address business meetings" only to have executives later fly to meet her; founding her own technology company in 1991 that employed remote workers before the World Wide Web existed; and her unforgettable boardroom showdown with a notoriously difficult chairman where her boldness carried the day.

Most compelling is Daggie's definition of boldness itself—speaking out for your cause, refusing to back down when challenged, and maintaining unwavering belief in your solution. At 81, still running her international technology company, she delivers a powerful message for women considering careers in tech: "Don't be afraid. You can do anything you want if you commit yourself to it."

What truly makes Daggie's story shine is hearing how her leadership transformed careers. After publishing her book "The Wall Falls, a Woman Rises," former employees reached out to share how working with her 35 years ago changed their lives—a testament to the lasting impact of authentic, bold leadership.

Ready for a dose of inspiration and practical wisdom from a true pioneer? This episode delivers exactly that. Share your thoughts after listening—we'd love to hear which part of Daggie's journey resonates most with you.

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Dagnija "Daggie" Lacis's Career Tips for Women Transcript


The 2B Bolder Podcast provides first-hand access to some amazing women. Guests will include women from leading enterprise companies to startups, women execs, coders, account execs, engineers, doctors, and innovators.

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Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hi there, and welcome to the show today. We are so lucky to be joined by an extraordinary woman who has been a pioneer in so many ways. Daggie Lacis, Daggie is what she goes by, embodies resilience and bold leadership. From being a refugee to shattering glass ceilings as the first woman programmer at the Burroughs Corporation and later its first female vice president in such a male-dominated tech world of the 1980s. When the Berlin Wall fell, she was invited back to her homeland as the first official Western visitor, where she helped modernize Latvia's technology infrastructure, playing a crucial role in the country's acceptance into NATO and the EU. At 81, and I'm telling you, she looks 31, Daggie continues to run the International Technology Company, which she founded back in 1991. Remarkably, one of the first to employ remote workers before the World Wide Web even existed, which, okay, the fact that she did that makes me love her even more. I'm dedicated to remote work forever. Daggie, it is such an honor to speak with you. Thank you for being here.

Dagnija Lacis (Guest): Well, thank you so much, Mary for having me.

Mary Killelea: You're welcome. Okay, so let's start by having you tell us, in your words, from a high level, kind of what was your career journey? And I know that's probably an impossible question, but let's try.

Dagnija Lacis: I'll start. Well, first of all, the country is Latvia. And I don't know if people know where it is, but it's south of the Scandinavian countries. So it's right across the Baltic Sea from Sweden and from Norway and Finland. Okay, so that's where the country Latvia is. And it was an independent country. And it was a country that was a part of the Soviet Union. And it was a part of a huge Soviet champion country since 1918. And during World War Two, the communists took it over.

Dagnija Lacis: I was born in Latvia. But we fled when I was a year old. And the reason for that is that my dad, who was a public prosecutor at the time, knew he was on the wanted list. And by that, what I mean is, what the communists basically did when they invaded all the Baltic. The other three countries are Estonia, Latvia in the middle, and Lithuania and of course, you know, then you've got Poland and you've got Germany and France, all that going west. But what they did is they would, in the middle of the night, come in and they would knock on the doors and give the family half an hour to pack whatever they could carry. And then put them on trains where they put men in one boxcar, women in another, and kids in another. So, of course, it was a horrible experience and many died on the way and so forth. So my dad didn't want to experience that. And so they held out in Latvia as long as they could. And when he came back, he told my mom, look, we got to get out of here. There's a last ship going to Germany from Latvia that will take refugees. So. We boarded that ship and we ended up in Germany in a town called Würzburg, Germany. And we were vetted there. We were lucky to be in the American zone. There was a British zone, American zone, and a Russian zone. So in the American zone, we were there for about five years, vetted. And finally, we were given three choices to go. To immigrate to Australia. To go to California or to Indiana. And my mom said she looked at the map and she thought Australia is way too far. California could fall off into the ocean. And Indiana was the center of the United States. So they chose Indiana. And that's how it all started.

Dagnija Lacis: So we got to Indiana. Our sponsor, that's another point. You have to have a sponsor. In order to. Get out. And that sponsor had to give you a guarantee of a job. So they guaranteed my dad employment. And it was a Lutheran church that sponsored us in Indianapolis. And so we arrived in Indianapolis and I didn't really know any English. So I had interesting experiences at the Indianapolis public school system. In the very beginning, I was a little shocked. You know. I had these long pigtails with bows in them. And no, none of the other kids did have that. And I remember being so different and not knowing English. The kids would stare at me with big eyes. The teacher was writing red, blue, and green. So that was the beginning. But I picked up English very quickly. They gave me, I think, a third grade child who spent time with me. And it just seemed. Just like that. I understood the teacher and everything was good.

Dagnija Lacis: So, yeah. So I went through the Indianapolis school system. I went to Arsenal Technical High School and I went to Butler University where I graduated with mathematics and chemistry. I worked my way all the way through. I would help my parents. I worked evenings at department stores and so forth in order to help them because not that they asked me, but I saw they needed it. So. But everything. Everything went fine. I graduated. And then in the meantime, my husband, Andres and I, who was also a Latvian got engaged. He went to Purdue University, which is another school in Indiana, and he had accepted a job on the East Coast. But we agreed, why don't I get a job in Indianapolis just for a year to save some money? So that's what we agreed. And that's what I did. So upon graduation, I asked my math professor, I said, well, what do you recommend because I really didn't want to use chemistry because I hated lab work. I didn't like it at all. So he said, well, they're looking at you. You could get a job at an insurance company where they're looking for actuary type work or there's an up and coming thing now called programming. And he said, for example, here in Indianapolis, we have IBM and Burroughs. So that's what I did. I applied to both. The insurance company and Burroughs. And the interesting thing in terms of how I selected my career was twenty five dollars a month. I knew nothing about programming because a butler I took theoretical math and I hadn't really seen a computer, but didn't know much about it. So I chose it because of twenty five dollars a month. I chose my career as a programmer and that's how it all started. But I didn't realize I was the first female programmer until much later. My boss apologized to me and he said, I really have to apologize for the barrage of tests that we gave you because you see, he said the company Burroughs never had any programmers. They're women. So he said we called the headquarters here in Detroit. And they said, well, we're going to hire a woman to check. Is it OK to hire a girl? And they said, well, there's there are no rules against it. Just give her these tests. So that's how it started. So that's how. But then they told me I was the first female programmer. But yeah, so that's how it started in Indianapolis. They then transferred me to the headquarters here in Michigan to use my math skills. I developed a mathematical optimization program. That's another skill that I learned. And I'm going to be a professor. That's another story. That's actually the first time I realized the difference between women and guys in business. But I could tell an hour later. But let's hear it now. I think that the story was this. I had developed this optimization program that basically oil companies really needed. And in those days, you see the computers. They were, you know, big, a room filled with equipment. The there was a separate box for her, her mag tape units, and there was box for for your disk files. There was a printer box and there was a central processor and everything was connected underneath these these raised floors and everything had to be air conditioned. So it was in these big computer systems. Any programs that went. Well, I'm doing one thing. I'm doing one thing on these computer systems, at least at Burroughs, free of charge. So many times, because of the software, the programs, the client would buy the computer, the big system. So in my case, I finished my program optimization, and my boss calls me and he said, hey, Daggy, how would you like to present it in Japan? And I said, what, Japan? He said, yeah, Mitsubishi Oil has this need for figuring out the cheapest ingredients and see what this math program thing does. It solves mathematical equations over and over and over again until you get the cheapest price. So you get the ingredients that meet the... So that was the essence of it. So I said, great. And I called my husband. He had since then joined the tire industry. I said, guess what? I got to go to Japan. And he said, well, okay, great. So we got a passport. And I really was ready to go. But my boss calls me in. He was red as a beet. And I knew there was something wrong. He said, Daggy, I hate to tell you, but they found out you're a woman. And in Japan, women cannot address a business meeting. So basically, I was really disappointed. See, my name is really... D-A-G-N-I-J-A. They couldn't tell initially if it was a guy or a girl. So anyway, I was disappointed. But then the most interesting thing was a couple of weeks later, I lost Doug. Wayne Nelson called me in and he was smiling. And I knew it was something good. He said, guess what? You won. And I looked at him. He said, yes. The Mitsubishi Oil, they're going to come to the Getty Estate. JP. It was a JP Getty Estate in California to meet you. So I've arranged the use of the company plane. So long story short, the sales guy and I were the only two on this private jet going from Detroit to the Los Angeles area to the Getty Estate. And when I got there, these two Japanese gentlemen rushed up to me and they were bowing like this. And they gave me. Each gave me a box, a gift wrap box. And on the plane back, I opened it and it was two beautiful sets of pearls. It was just one. So I forgave them basically because I'd never been in a private jet. But that was my. That's when I first realized, really, the women guy issue, because at that time. At that time, I didn't really think about it that way. I was just doing my job. And then. And then at Burroughs, I continued to be promoted, but it was merit based. Basically, I became the manager of math programming, and then I became manager of scientific programming, and then I became manager of commercial business systems. This is all software development stuff. And then finally, I remember the vice president of our whole area called me in. He said, Daggy, he said, we're setting up things by line of business. And we would like to open a branch for schools in the state of Michigan. How would you like to staff it and be branch manager? And of course, at that point, I didn't know what to do. Before, I always hated salespeople. I mean, I just didn't like it. And I had no background in sales. And so I talked to my husband and he said, look, hey, if you don't like it, you can always quit. So because we always had this deal. That both of us were professionals and we would always do what's best for the company, do the job and not play politics. That's how we started.

Dagnija Lacis: Anyway, I took the job and I loved it. I love the sales. I mean, it was great. I learned how to write sales contracts, how you install computers. And anyway, so there's a lot of fun. And after that, then I was promoted to industry marketing and then vice president. Actually, I have. Interesting story. If you.

Mary Killelea: Yes.

Dagnija Lacis: Were you talking about bold?

Mary Killelea: Yes, please. Share your bold story.

Dagnija Lacis: My bold story was this. What would see my job as vice president of the education line of business was to increase the number of users in schools and universities. OK. And in those days, we still remember we had these bigger computers. So you needed a program to attract them. Like for schools. We needed it particularly in the US. There was something I forgot. Now it was like 64,000 or 36 opportunities. And in this public school system, you have great reporting, you have classroom scheduling, you have student records, you have payroll personnel, and so. I knew I needed something and my team and I decided, well, why don't we look around and see what schools? I mean, we're always at that time. It was Ulysses' equipment and we did and we found a software company. But Ulysses had never purchased any software company. They had their own teams. But I knew it would take forever to start building a team. And I probably wouldn't get the right funding anyway. So what I did and I presented to you. The proposal of purchasing it and you know, the interesting thing is when I presented it, I presented it to the sales district managers and the vice president. They all loved it. And they said, hey, that's great, because I don't want to be bothered with any programming support because this company would support the software and all I have to worry about is the boxes, the hardware. So they all loved it. And so then the funny thing is they. But you see this. This is. This was a risk taking thing. And everyone was playing politics. No one, you know. So I really believed in it. I had created a nice business plan. So then finally they said their group said to my boss, who was then an executive vice president. Well, why don't you, Bill, go ahead and present it to the chairman? And the next thing I know. Bill calls me. And says, I got an appointment two days later at the chairman's office. How? And I said, great. What do you need for your presentation? He said, no, you present. I will listen. You see, it would be me taking the risk and then. OK, so then I said, OK. And I remember arriving that morning and I was kind of nervous about the presentation because I'd heard this chairman was really rude and rough. And I said, OK. I'm going to do this. And I'll let you know if you guys are worried about it. And I said, OK. So anyway, that time came and I went up to the executive office and my boss was there and it was me, my boss. And I had in those days he had a projector. I don't remember a projector with cells. That's how we made presentations. OK, so I had my first sell up, which said commitment to education and income as the chairman.

Dagnija Lacis: What do you mean, commitment? I have. You have to convince me. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, he was so rude. And you know what I did? I said, so I forgot everything, all my charts. And we started arguing. I was telling him the benefits, the numbers, which I knew. And we sort of yelled at each other. I don't know, for about 45 minutes. And then all of a sudden he says, oh, I got to go. And he walks out. So I thought, oh, my God, I'm going to be fired. You know, I really did. And, you know, my boss just kind of shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I gathered my cells and dropped them off my office and walked out to the parking lot. And really, I was sort of really almost in tears. I think I probably cried. I'm not sure. Andy says, my husband said, hey, don't worry. They're not going to fire you. And, you know, the funny thing is the next morning now, I go to my office and there's a note to see the chairman. I thought, oh. No. But I go in and he is all smiles, a totally different man than the day before. And he started telling me his story about how he started his career. And he said, OK, fine. How do you want to negotiate the deal? We agree with you. How do you want to negotiate? And I, you know, he gave me some tips. He said, deal with the liars and, you know, get the deal going. So anyway, we did that. But that was being bold because I really believed in it so much that I did raise my voice. He was yelling and I was yelling.

Mary Killelea: It is such a great story of boldness, you know. But I think some of the lessons that I heard was that you came in prepared and you were, you know, you had.

Dagnija Lacis: Yes.

Mary Killelea: Conviction of the benefits and the value it brought the company.

Dagnija Lacis: Yes. Yes. And you know what? The result was we increased the market share of the users of education by 20 percent. So I felt really good about that. But that showed boldness because actually I believed it so strongly. I wasn't thinking about my job. I just thought it was best for the company.

Mary Killelea: What does to be bolder mean to you?

Dagnija Lacis: To be bolder means you speak out for your cause, whatever the cause is, whatever you have to have. You can't just be bold. Just. You have to believe in your causes and you have to fight for it. And to me, that means to be bold, not to not to shy away. People are against that. You have to explain your issue, your problem that you're trying to solve to others and your solution. You have to be confident in your solution. All right. And other people have to recognize that. And that to me is being. You need to be bold. In terms of standing up for it. Be strong and not just, you know, give up at the first at the first question or at the first negative response, because there will always be negative responses.

Mary Killelea: Yeah.

Dagnija Lacis: Well, I mean, it's but you have to. You know, life is filled with people, good people and bad people. Other people want to make you look bad. You have to understand that. But you just to me. Everyone should get it and I think that's the job that they believe in and if they believe in, they have to be good at it. They have to understand it. You've got to keep fighting for it and you get recognized. But I don't see any reason why a woman cannot start in tech today, even though I stumbled into it by accident. I never really felt any different when I was a VP. Now, now over in Latvia, they did tell me when I first saw when I first went over there, I spoke Latvian. And they and I were women. And they said they've never seen a woman know so much about technology and spoke Latvian. People told me that after. But I mean, it's no people. I think of anything. Women should be encouraged to go into technology and into engineering. They should do that. And especially now, we see who knows what's going to happen in the air. There's a lot of. There's a lot of opportunities there to participate in the development of AI. I mean, that's an exciting field going forward for anyone. I mean.

Mary Killelea: And then that's interesting to you because that is one of the questions I wanted to ask you about was your thoughts on AI and the speed in which it is like. In infiltrating, you know, the industries right now. How do you see AI enhancing? Enhancing what we do? And I guess what are the pros and cons in your mind?

Dagnija Lacis: Well, no, in my mind, AI is just wonderful. All the opportunities there. See, some of the stuff I was involved in my program was part of what now is AI decision support stuff, but automatic and stuff like that. So, yeah, no, I think the concepts are great. I think what everybody has to watch out for is what I see of people. Especially it mimicking someone's voice and someone else. I mean, that's something that I think needs to be addressed. You see these movie stars saying they are the singers saying someone else does my voice, you know, and you got to worry about that. But I think that can all be controlled. But there should be, you know, some controls on it. But no, I think it is going to help the world going forward. But it does need to be. My. Monitor. Somewhat just, you know, you don't want you don't want someone representing you calling around doing things in your name when it's not you. And that's the kind of stuff I think that's all can be controlled with the proper technology, too. But, you know, that's yeah. But that's an area that women can go into right now.

Mary Killelea: Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I think it's an incredible opportunity. You know, from AI policy, ethical, unbiased, you know, as well as, you know, the development, et cetera. You know, cybersecurity is another one where I think women can get into. It's a huge growth area.

Dagnija Lacis: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And it's very expensive. I've seen that we have to get all the cybersecurity at our company in the lab. It's very costly, you know, to be insured. So that's because, yeah, our work needs to be done more in that area. And it's going on. It's a good area to get into. But no, I think women in general. She should not be afraid. See, that's one of the things, you know, even in my area where I was asked to create after my scientific programming thing, I was asked to create a business, a commercial accounting system. So I knew nothing about accounting. I remember getting it. My husband's MBA books out. What is the accounts receivable payable? So I had the right buzzwords down. But so don't be afraid. Yeah, we got it. I had the right people. And we just follow along and develop. You have to trust your people, but you got to hire the right people. But yeah, I mean, you shouldn't be afraid. I was afraid of sales, but I loved it. You know, one can do anything one wants to do. If you put your mind to it. I think that's the one thing I didn't. I think that's the one thing I didn't mention, which is really something that I think. In my life is my. I always remember this. When I was in charge of the universities, we had university conferences throughout the world. And when I was in Michigan, I invited the father of the computer. And at that time, this was in 1986. And I had it here at University of Michigan. And this person who was. John Vincent at NASA. He was then, I think, 83 years old. And he looked like, you know, the movie that was at the. What's his name? Emmett Emmett. Somebody that's a minor professor in that movie. Back to the future.

Mary Killelea: OK,

Dagnija Lacis: Just like that. Anyway, he was so cute. And his story about. He's the one that invented the four principles that are every computer. And he had to go. Court to get the rights back because in the meantime, this guy at the University of Pennsylvania stole the credit. But he had come. He had visited NASA. John Vincent at NASA was at Iowa Stat and he invited me. Blockly from University of Pennsylvania to visit. He had taken all his drawings. OK, so the court finally awarded him the recognition he deserved. But the interesting story was how he came up with it. First of all he said again, I had this feeling. Anything I wanted I could do and he said my mom had a math teacher and she had a book other than base 10. And so that's where he said. That's where base two comes in the computers, which is buying it, which is 01 Boolean.

Dagnija Lacis: That's what happens. The electronics. OK, so. He just told his whole story. How he actually ended up finding the solution. And the anecdote is really the funny part is when they actually figured it all out. He said I was thinking and I was missing something. And he said, I just had to get off my mind. I get in my car and I do something I seldom do. And he said I was going nine or 100 miles an hour down the freeway. And all of a sudden he realized he was in the state of Illinois. He said, and I wanted to drive, I wanted to drink. So he said he saw a roadhouse. He went into the roadhouse. He remembered his coat was really heavy, hung it up and he ordered a bourbon, a soda and he took a napkin and all of a sudden he said my mind was clear. He said after the second bourbon is soda. He knew exactly what he was going to do. And his principles were he's going to have memories that can be refreshed. That memory and loudness. That's what he said. He said, I'm going to have magic. It's going to be separate. It'll use electronics and everything we use based on the four principles. He says every computer. He was so cute. And then afterward, what are the questions I was taking questions for? He said, Dr. And I saw what brand of the bourbon you didn't know. I just know it's bourbon soda. But he was really cute. I and I have a whole video of the whole session. But how he came up with it. Just to see what he does. He's got such confidence he comes right out of his floodgates and into the sperm cycles. And then finally when he fell asleep. And that's really when I read the stroke. And so I felt very... I don't it felt like I was saying how situations that I'm going through and I saw if we change our ways of thinking. But even though I don't want to speak about lies, I like to read why I think I get more questions. No, I don't know where you were being so ferried. But we had a match Dizzy recently made because he will never forget this. And when we lie down on the mat of 7-Eleven, we woke up to do the next painting and got back there when we saw them in the shower. When we turn onto the screen and I see him get his gig, everything falls into the emotions writing this book?

Dagnija Lacis: I have to say the thing that makes everything worthwhile is getting notes now from my former employees, the ones that hired the 60 ones, how working at BTG 35 years ago changed their lives. And they appreciate, I mean, to me, I started to cry because that to me makes my whole, the work that I did really worthwhile, that I did make a difference, at least in these people's lives in terms of their careers. Yeah, many of them now are executives and companies, but he said, one guy just this morning, I looked at one, he said, you showed us the way.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing.

Dagnija Lacis: Yeah. So I kind of, I really appreciate that. But I wanted to write it because in my own mind, I thought it was very interesting. And really, I wanted people to see in the book, The Wall Falls, I go step by step at each of my disappointments and challenges that I faced and how I reacted to it. And I think anyone, I would like people to see that they should never give up. That's probably the way I would put it, because there's always a solution. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of new challenges when you're not going to be able to do it. And I think that's the way I would put it. You may not be certain that you can do this, but believe me, you can. One can do anything they want, but you have to commit yourself to it and dedicate yourself to it. So that's been my motto. And I've enjoyed writing it.

Mary Killelea: Daggy, it has been such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Your story is interesting. Your contributions are so impressive and so impactful. Thank you for being on the show.

Dagnija Lacis: Thank you, Mary. Thank you.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2, little b, bolder.com.