2B Bolder Podcast : Career Insights for the Next Generation of Women in Business & Tech

#123 Dagnija 'Daggie' Lacis, A Pioneer in Tech: From Refugee to VP

• Dagnija 'Daggie' Lacis • Season 6 • Episode 123

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Daggie Lacey's life reads like a Hollywood script, yet her remarkable journey from refugee to tech pioneer is 100% real. In this captivating conversation, Daggie shares how fleeing Latvia as a one-year-old set her on an unexpected path toward breaking unimaginable barriers in the technology industry.

With disarming candor, she reveals how she became the first female programmer at Burroughs Corporation based on a $25 monthly salary difference—a decision that led to a series of glass-ceiling-shattering achievements. She recalls the moment when her boss confessed they'd never hired a female programmer before, explaining the battery of special tests she had to pass simply because of her gender.

The stories flow like chapters in an adventure novel: being blocked from presenting in Japan because "women cannot address business meetings" only to have executives later fly to meet her; founding her own technology company in 1991 that employed remote workers before the World Wide Web existed; and her unforgettable boardroom showdown with a notoriously difficult chairman where her boldness carried the day.

Most compelling is Daggie's definition of boldness itself—speaking out for your cause, refusing to back down when challenged, and maintaining unwavering belief in your solution. At 81, still running her international technology company, she delivers a powerful message for women considering careers in tech: "Don't be afraid. You can do anything you want if you commit yourself to it."

What truly makes Daggie's story shine is hearing how her leadership transformed careers. After publishing her book "The Wall Falls, a Woman Rises," former employees reached out to share how working with her 35 years ago changed their lives—a testament to the lasting impact of authentic, bold leadership.

Ready for a dose of inspiration and practical wisdom from a true pioneer? This episode delivers exactly that. Share your thoughts after listening—we'd love to hear which part of Daggie's journey resonates most with you.

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Mary Killelea:

Hi there, my name is Mary Kiloalea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of it's totally possible. So sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation. Hi there and welcome to the show.

Mary Killelea:

Today we are so lucky to be joined by an extraordinary woman who has been a pioneer in so many ways Daggie Lacey. Daggie is what she goes by, embodies resilience and bold leadership, from being a refugee to shattering glass ceilings as the first woman programmer at the Burroughs Corporation and later its first female vice president in such a male-dominated tech world of the 1980s. When the Berlin Wall fell, she was invited back to her homeland as the first official Western visitor, where she helped modernize Lativia's technology infrastructure, playing a crucial role in the country's acceptance into NATO and the EU. At 81, and I'm telling you she looks 31, dagy continues to run the international technology company she founded back in 1991. Remarkably, one of the first to employ remote workers before the World Wide Web even existed, which okay. The fact that she did that makes me love her even more. I'm dedicated to remote work forever. Daggie, it is such an honor to speak with you. Thank you for being here.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Thank you so much, Mary, for having me.

Mary Killelea:

You're welcome, Okay, so let's start by having you tell us in your words, from a high level kind of, what was your career journey. And I know that's probably an impossible question, but let's try.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

I'll start Well. First of all, the country is Latvia, and I don't know if people know where it is, but it's south of the Scandinavian countries, so it's right across the Baltic Sea from Sweden and from Norway and Finland. Okay, so that's where the country Latvia is, and it was an independent country since 1918. And during World War Two the communists took it over. I was born in Latvia, but we fled.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

When I was a year old, dad, who was a public prosecutor at the time, knew he was on the wanted list, and by that what I mean is, um, what the communists basically did when they inva, invaded all the baltic. The other three countries is estonia, latvia is the middle, and lithuania, and of course you know. Then you got poland and and you've got germ Germany and France, all that going west. But what they did is they would, in the middle of the night, come in and they would knock on the doors and give the family half an hour to pack whatever they could carry and then put them on trains where they put men in one boxcar, women in another and kids in another. So of course it was a horrible experience and many died on the way and so forth. So my dad didn't want to experience that, and so they held out in Latvia as long as they could. And when he came back he told my mom look, we got to get out of here. There's a last ship going to Germany from Latvia that will take refugees. So we boarded that ship and we ended up in Germany in a town called Würzburg, germany, and we were vetted there. We were lucky to be in the American zone. There was a British zone, american zone and a Russian zone. So in the American zone we were there about five years, vetted, and finally we were given three choices to go To immigrate to Australia, to go to California or to Indiana. And my mom said she looked at the map and she thought Australia is way too far, california could fall off into the ocean and Indiana was the center of the United States. So they chose Indiana and that's how it all started. So we got to Indiana. Our sponsor that's another point. So we got to Indiana Our sponsor that's another point. You had to have a sponsor in order to get out and that sponsor had to give you a guarantee of a job. So they guaranteed my dad employment and it was a Lutheran church that sponsored us in Indianapolis.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

And so we arrived in Indianapolis and I didn't really know any English. So I had interesting experiences at the Indianapolis public school system. In the very beginning I was a little shocked. You know, I had these long pigtail break with bows in them and none of the other kids did have that. And I remember being so different and not knowing English. The kids would stare at me with big eyes. The teacher was writing red, blue, green. So that was the beginning. But I picked up English very quickly. They gave me, I think, a third grade child who spent time with me and it just seemed just like that. I understood the teacher and everything was good. So, yeah, so I went through the Indianapolis school system.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

I went to Arsenal Technical High School and I went to Butler University where I graduated with mathematics and chemistry. I worked my way all the way through. I would help my parents, I worked evenings at department stores and so forth in order to help them, because not that they asked me, but I saw they needed it. So but everything went fine, I graduated and then in the meantime, my husband, andres and I, who was also a Latvian, we got engaged. He went to Purdue University, which is another school in Indiana, and he had accepted a job on the East Coast. But we agreed why don't I get a job in Indianapolis, just for a year to save some money? So that's what we agreed and that's what I did. So upon graduation I asked my math professor I said well, what do you recommend? Because I really didn't want to use chemistry, because I hated lab work, didn't like it at all.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

An insurance company where they're looking for actuary type work, or there's an up and coming thing now called programming. And he said for example, here at Indianapolis we have IBM and Burroughs. So that's what I did. I applied to both insurance company and to Burroughs and the interesting thing in terms of how I selected my career was $25 a month. I knew nothing about programming because at Butler I took theoretical math and I hadn't really. I'd seen a computer but didn't know much about it. So I chose because of $25 a month. I chose my career as a programmer and that's how it all started.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

But I didn't realize I was the first female programmer until much later my boss apologized for me and he said I really have to apologize for the barrage of tests that we gave you, because you see, he said, the company Burroughs never had any programmers. They're women. So he said, we called the headquarters here in Detroit to check is it okay to hire a girl? And they said, well, there's no rules against it, just give her these tests. So that's how it started. So that's how. But then they told me I was the first female programmer. But uh, yeah, so that's how it started. In indianapolis they then transferred me to uh headquarters here in michigan to use my math skills. I developed a mathematical optimization program. That's another story. That's actually the first time I realized the difference between women and guys in business. But I could tell an hour later no doubt, let's hear it now.

Mary Killelea:

I think that's great hear it now.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

I think that the story was this I had developed this optimization program that basically oil companies really needed. And in those days, you see, the computers were, you know, big a room filled with equipment. There was a separate box for mag tape units and there was a box for your disk files, there was a printer box and there was a central processor and everything was connected underneath these raised floors and everything had to be air conditioned. So it was, and these big computer systems, any programs that worked on these computer systems, at least at Burroughs, were free of charge. So many times, because of the software, the programs, the client would buy the big system.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

So in my case I finished my program optimization, and my boss calls me and said hey, daggy, how would you like to present it in Japan? And I said, what Japan? He said yeah, mitsubishi oil has this need for figuring out the cheapest ingredients. And see what this math program thing does. It solves mathematical equations over and, over and over again until you get the cheapest price. So you get the ingredients that meet the. So that was the essence of it. So I said great, and I called my husband. He had since then joined the tire industry. I said, guess what? I got to go to Japan. And he said, well, okay, great. So we got a passport. And I got to go to Japan. And he said, well, okay, great. So we got a passport and I really was ready to go.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Boss calls me in. He was red as a beet and I knew there was something. He said Daggy, I hate to tell you, but they found out you're a woman and in Japan women cannot address a business meeting. So basically I was really disappointed. See, my name is really D-A-G-N-I-J-A. They couldn't tell initially if it was a guy or a girl, so, anyway, so I was disappointed. But then the most interesting thing was, a couple of weeks later I lost Doug Wayne Nelson calls me and he was smiling and I knew it was something good. He said guess what you won? And I looked at him. He said, yes, the Mitsubishi oil. They're going to come to the Getty Estate. John was a JP Getty Estate in California to meet you. So and I've arranged the use of the company plane. So so, long story short, we, the sales guy and I were the only two on this private jet going morning to Detroit, to Los Angeles area, to the Getty estate, and, and when I got there, these two Japanese gentlemen rushed up to me and they were bowing like this and they gave me each gave me a box, a gift wrap box, and on the plane back I opened it and it was two beautiful sets of pearls. It was just one. So I forgave them, basically because I'd never been in a private jet. But that was my.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

That's when I first realized really the women guy issue, because at that time, at that time, uh, I didn't really think about it that way. I was just doing my job. And then, and then, but at Burroughs, um, I continued to be promoted, but it was merit-based. I became the manager of math programming and then I became manager of scientific programming and then I became manager of commercial business systems this is all software development stuff. And then finally, I remember the vice president of our whole area called me in. He said Daggy, we're setting up things by line of business and we would like to open a branch for schools in the state of Michigan. How would you like to staff it and be branch manager? And of course, at that point I didn't know what to do.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

I before I always hated salespeople. I mean, I just didn't like salespeople and I had no background in sales and so I talked to my husband and he said look, hey, if you don't like it, you can always quit. So because we always had this deal that both of us were professionals and we would always do what's best for the company, do the job and not play politics that's how we started. Anyway, I took the job and I loved it. I loved the sales. I mean it was great. I learned how to write sales contracts, how to install computers and anyway. So there's a lot of fun. And after that then I was promoted to industry marketing and then vice president. Actually, I have an interesting story. Yes, were you talking about bold?

Mary Killelea:

Yes, please share your bold story.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

My bold story was this See, my job as vice president of the education line of business was to increase the number of users in schools and universities. Okay, and in those days we still remember, we had these bigger computers, so you needed a program to attract them, like for schools. We needed, particularly in the US, I forgot now it was like 64,000 or 36 opportunities and in this public school system you have grade reporting, you have classroom scheduling, you have student records, you have payroll personnel, and so I knew I needed something and my team and I decided well, why don't we look around and see what schools use? I mean, that time it was Unisys equipment. And we did, and we found a software company. But Unisys had never purchased any software company. They had their own teams. But I knew it would take forever to start building a team and and I probably wouldn't get the right funding anyway.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

So what I did? I presented to, uh, to. I presented a proposal of purchasing it and you know the interesting thing is, when I presented it, I presented it to the sales district managers and the vice president. They all loved it and they said hey, that's great, because I don't want to be bothered with any programming support, because this company that would support the software and all I have to worry is about the boxes, the hardware. So they all loved it. And so then the funny thing is they. But you see, this was a risk-taking thing and everyone was playing politics, no one you know, uh. So, but I really believed in it. I had created a nice business plan.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

So, uh, then finally they said they, their group, said to my boss, who was then an executive vice president well, why don't you, bill, go ahead and present it to the chairman? And the next thing I know, bill calls me and says I got an appointment two days later at the chairman's office and I said, great, what do you need for your presentation? He said, no, you, you present, I will listen, you see it's, it would be me taking the risk. And and then, okay, so then, um, so then I said, well, okay, and I remember arriving that morning and I was kind of nervous about the presentation because I'd heard this chairman was really rude and rough. So anyway, the time came and I went up to the executive office and my boss was there, and it was me. My boss and I had, in those days he had a projector I don't remember a projector with cells. That's how we made presentations.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Okay, so I had my first cell up which said commitment to education and income. As the chairman, what do you mean? Commitment, I have you have to convince me. And you know he was so rude and you know what I did. I said so I forgot everything, all my charts, and we started arguing. I was telling him the benefits, the numbers which I knew, and we sort of yelled at each other, I don't know, for about 45 minutes and then all of a sudden he says, oh, I got to go. And he walks out. So I thought, oh my God, I'm going to be fired. You know, I really did. And you know my boss just kind of shrugged his shoulders and walked away.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

I gathered my cells and dropped them off at my office and walked out to the parking lot and really I was sort of, really almost in tears. I think I probably cried, I'm not sure Andy says. My husband said, hey, don't worry, they're not going to fire you. And you know, the funny thing is the next morning now I go to my office and there's a note to see the chairman. I thought, oh no. But I go in and he is, all smiles a totally different man than the day before and he started telling me his story about how he started his career and he said OK, fine, how do you want to negotiate the deal? We agree with you. How do you want to negotiate? And he gave me some tips. He said deal with the liars and get the deal going. So anyway, we did that, but that was being bold, because I really I believed in it so much that I did raise my voice. He was yelling and I was yelling.

Mary Killelea:

It is. It is such a great story of boldness, you know, but I think some of the lessons that I heard was that you came in prepared and you were, you know you had yes. Conviction in the benefits and the value it brought the company yes, and and, and you know what the result was?

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

we increased the market share of the users, of education users, by 20, so I felt really good about that. But that showed boldness because actually I I believed it so strongly. I wasn't thinking about my job, I just thought it was best for the company.

Mary Killelea:

What does to be bolder mean to you?

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

To be bolder means you speak out for your cause. Whatever the cause is, you have to have a. You can't just be bold. You have to believe in what your cause is and you have to fight for it. And to me, that means to be bold, not to not to shy away if people are against it. You have to explain your. You have to explain your um, uh, your issue, your problem that you're trying to solve to others and your solution. You have to be confident in your solution. All right, and other people have to recognize that. And that, to me, is being you need to be bold in terms of standing up for it. Be strong and not just, you know, give up at the first question or at the first negative response, because there'll always be negative responses. Yeah Well, I mean it's, but you have to, because there'll always be negative responses.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Yeah Well, I mean it's, but you have to. You know life is filled with people good people and bad people. Other people want to make you look bad. You have to understand that. But you just to me, everyone should get a job that they believe in. And if they believe in, they have to be good at it. They have to understand it, and you got to keep fighting for it. And if they believe in they have to be good at it. They have to understand it. You got to keep fighting for it and you get recognized.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

But I don't see any reason why a woman cannot start in tech today. Even though I stumbled into it by accident, I never really felt any different. When I was a VP Now over in Latvia, they did tell me when I first see, when I first went over there, I spoke Latvian and I was a woman, and they said they've never seen a woman know so much about technology and spoke Latvian. People told me that afterward no people. I think, if anything, women should be encouraged to go into technology and into engineering. They should do that, and especially now when we see who knows what's going to happen in the AI. There's a lot of many opportunities there to participate in the development of AI. I mean that's an exciting field going forward for anyone.

Mary Killelea:

I mean and then that's interesting, that you because that is one of the questions I wanted to ask you about was your thoughts on AI and the speed in which it is like infiltrating, you know, the industries right now. How do you see AI enhancing what we do and, I guess, what are the pros and cons in your mind?

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Well, no, in my mind, AI is just wonderful, All the opportunities there. See, some of the stuff I was involved in my programming was part of what now is AI's decision support stuff, but automatic and that stuff like that. So, yeah, no, I think the concepts are great. I think what everybody has to watch out for is what I see, what people, especially in mimicking someone's voice and someone else. I mean, that's something that I think needs to be addressed. You see these movie stars saying they are the singers, saying someone else duped my voice, you know, and you got to worry about that.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

But I think that can all be controlled. But there should be, you know, some controls on it. But no, I think it's going to help the world going forward, but it does need to be monitored somewhat. Just, you know you don't want someone representing you calling around doing things in your name when it's not you, and that's the kind of stuff. I think that all can be controlled with the proper technology too. But you know that's the kind of stuff. I think that all can be controlled with the proper technology too. But you know that's yeah, but that's an area that women can go into right now.

Mary Killelea:

Absolutely, absolutely no. I think it's an incredible opportunity. You know from AI policy ethical, unbiased. You know as well as you know the development et cetera. You know cybersecurity is another one where I think women can get into it's a huge growth area.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Yes, it is. Yes, it is, and it's very expensive. I've seen that we have to get all the cybersecurity at our company in Latvia. It's very costly you very costly to be insured. So that's because work needs to be done more in that area and it's going on.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

It's a good area to get into, but no, I think women in general and you should not be afraid. See, that's one of the things you know. Even in my area, where I was asked to create, after my scientific programming thing, I was asked to create business, a commercial accounting system. So I had the right buzzwords down. But so don't be afraid. Yeah, we got it. I had the right people and we just follow along and the development. You have to trust your people, but you got to hire the right people. But yeah, I mean you shouldn't be afraid. I was afraid of sales but I loved it. You know, one can do anything one wants to do if you put your mind to it. I think that's the one thing I didn't mention, which is really something that I think in my life is my way. I always remember this.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

When I was in charge of the universities, we had university conferences throughout the world and one I had in Michigan. I invited the father of the computer and at that time this was in 1986. And I had it here at University of Michigan and this person who was John Vincent Atanasa he was then, I think, 83 years old and he looked like you know the movie, that's what was it? The uh, uh, what's his name? Emmett, emmett, somebody, the absent-minded professor in that movie, back to the future, okay, looks just like that. Anyway, he was so cute and he his story about. He's the one that invented the four principles that are every computer and he had to go to court to get the rights back Because in the meantime this guy at the University of Pennsylvania stole the credit. But he had visited Atanasoff. John Vincent Atanasoff was at Iowa State and he invited Mockley from University of Pennsylvania to visit. He had taken all his drawings and the court finally awarded him the recognition he deserved.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

But the interesting story was how he came up with it. First of all, he said again, he said I had this feeling, anything I wanted I could do. And he said my mom had a, a, his mother was a math teacher and she had a book other than base 10, and so that's where base, he said, that's where base 2 comes in the computers, which is buying it, which is zero, one boolean, that's what happens. The electronics, okay. So he, he was just uh, his whole story about how he actually ended up finding the solution.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

And the anecdote is really the funny part is when he actually figured it all out was that he? He said I was thinking, thinking, thinking and I was missing something. And he said I just had to get off my mind. I get in my car and I do something I seldom do. And he said I was going 100 miles an hour down the freeway and all of a sudden he realized he was in the state of Illinois, he said, and I wanted a drink. So he said he saw a roadhouse.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

He went into the roadhouse, he remembered his coat was really heavy, hung it up and he ordered a bourbon of soda and he took a napkin. All of a sudden he said my mind was clearer. He said after the second bourbon of soda he knew exactly what he was going to do and his principles were he's going to have memory that can be refreshed, that memory and logic, and be separate. He'll use the electronics and everything will be based to the four principles, he says every computer. He was so cute. And then afterward one of the questions I was taking questions for, he said a doctor had nice stuff. What was the brand of the bourbon that you I don't know, I just know it was bourbon soda. But he was really cute and I have a whole video of the whole session. But how he came up with it, the challenges he faced, I think, was I'll remember that forever.

Mary Killelea:

Your book is called the Wall Falls, a Woman Rises. Yes, and it's available today on Amazon and I think it's you know. I encourage everyone to get it because your story is magnificent. What did you? What was your biggest takeaway from writing this book?

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

I have to say, the thing that makes everything worthwhile is getting notes now from my former employees the ones that hired, the 60 ones how working at BTG 35 years ago changed their lives, cry, because that, to me, makes my whole uh, the work that I did really worthwhile, that I did make a difference, at least in these people's lives in terms of their careers. Yeah, many of them now are executives and companies, but he's he said, I think one guy just this morning I looked at one, he, he said you showed us the way that's amazing yeah.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

So I I kind of uh, I really appreciate that, but I I wanted to write it because you know my own mind. Uh, I thought it was very interesting and really I wanted people to see in in the book the wall falls, I go step by step and each of my disappointments and challenges that are facing how I reacted to it and, I think, anyone. I would like people to see that they should never give up that's probably the way I would put it, because there's always a solution. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of new challenges when you may not be certain that you can do this, but believe me, you can. One can do anything they want, but you have to commit yourself to it and dedicate yourself to it. So that's been my motto and I've enjoyed it writing it.

Mary Killelea:

Daggy, it has been such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Your story is interesting. Your contributions are so impressive and so impactful. Thank you for being on the show.

Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis:

Thank you, Mary.

Mary Killelea:

Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2BBouldercom. That's the number 2, little b, bouldercom.