CHECK YOUR HEAD: Mental Help for Musicians

Kills Birds: Depression & Toxic Relationship Recovery w/Johanna Kandel (Natnl Alliance For Eating Disorders)

• Mari Fong / Kills Birds, Johanna Kandel • Season 3 • Episode 3

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Mari Fong interviews Nina Ljeti and Jacob Loeb of Kills Birds, and Johanna Kandel of the National Alliance For Eating Disorders.  Nina and Jacob of the band Kills Birds share their  pandemic challenges, depression solutions, Nina's toxic relationship recovery, and the story behind Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters inviting the band to record their latest album, "Married," at his studio and as an opening act for the Foos. We play a clip of their single, "Rabbit" inspired by Nina's abusive relationship.

Next, we have mental health expert Johanna Kandel, founder and CEO of the National Alliance For Eating Disorders and author of "Life Beyond Your Eating Disorder." A former ballerina and 10-year survivor of eating disorders, Johanna gives recovery advice, how The Alliance can help, and their "Not One More" Weekend,  Feb. 25-27, 2022, which features advocates like singer-songwriter Demi Lovato as a part of National Eating Disorders Awareness Week.

“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/

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SPEAKER_04:

Welcome to the Check Your Head Podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and February is a month that brings thoughts of love and romance with Valentine's Day, celebrations with Chinese New Year and Black History Month, and awareness with National Eating Disorders Month. With musicians such as Lindsey Stirling and Brian Wheat of Tesla sharing their eating disorder experiences on the Check Your Head podcast, today we're excited to feature Joanna Kendall, the founder and CEO of the National Alliance for Eating Disorders, as today's mental health expert. Now to our featured musical guests. Today we have an up-and-coming band that dropped their self-titled debut album in 2019 and quickly generated buzz for their wild and unpredictable shows with the LA Times calling lead singer Nina Letty LA's most electrifying new rock singer. This band has become a favorite with musicians like Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth, Reggie Watts, and In fact, Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters was so impressed, he not only invited them to record their newest album, Married, at his 606 recording studio, but also invited them out on the road as a Foo Fighters opening act. Today's musical guests are Nina Letty and Jacob Loeb of the band Kills Birds, who will share their stories and solutions for depression and toxic relationships, and will also listen to a clip of their single, Rabbit, which is about Nina's abusive relationship and its emotionally devastating consequences. Next, our featured expert is Joanna Candle, the founder of the National Alliance for Eating Disorders, a former ballerina who also experienced a 10-year battle with multiple eating disorders. With musicians such as Karen Carpenter and Amy Winehouse having eating disorders that eventually led to their early deaths, we'll talk about how musicians and other performers can be at higher risk the steps to recovery, and also information about their annual Not One More Weekend, happening February 25th to 27th, featuring notable advocates, such as singer-songwriter Demi Lovato. But first, let's hear Nina Letty and Jacob Loeb of Kills Birds share their stories. We were talking about the COVID pandemic and how it's affected us mentally, but But can you talk about a couple songs that really hit the nail on the head with the way you were feeling at that time? I

SPEAKER_02:

think that's a tough question to answer, especially given what just happened five minutes ago, because I feel like in a lot of ways, at least lyrically, I'm still trying to wrap my head around exactly how I'm feeling. It's really hard. You know, I think every musician right now can attest to constantly hearing the news. You know, things are getting pushed back. So I'm sure that when we go into writing the third record, we are still going to be tackling a lot of those feelings. But I think for album two, the song that sticks out for me as representing that is our song Cough Up Cherries, which is going to be the third single that comes out on this record. You know, the feelings of loneliness, isolation, anxiety, and anger that everybody was feeling over the course of 2020. You know, having to go through it, whether you were like alone in your apartment or you were with somebody. And then, you know, the anger that kind of culminated halfway through the year with the Black Lives Matter protests, the confusion everybody was feeling. over that, the heartbreak, but also just in general, like watching people die, like watching this virus unfold that nobody was really expecting. So I think Cherries really encapsulates a lot of that frustration. It's boiling. Something's coming out of that.

SPEAKER_04:

And Nina, you mentioned something that happened five minutes ago. Can you explain a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, we just got some bad news. Our show with the Foo Fighters, it's been postponed to March. It was just announced. But yeah, we found out five minutes ago that the show we're supposed to play with the Foo Fighters in Mexico City got postponed to March of 2022. It's like a weird combination of feelings where it's like, that's okay. We will play that show in March 2022. It will happen. Better to be safe than sorry. And we're so lucky that we're even in a position where we get to say a show that we're playing with the Foo Fighters got pushed by a couple months. But it is disheartening. At the same time, I think every musician, artist relates to it in some way. You want life to start back up again. We want so badly to go back to this normal, but we're just not there yet. There's so many anxieties around whether tours will go forward, whether they won't, how safe you are on these tours, how safe you are in general. fears that time is going by and we don't have the opportunity to be what we want to be, which is artists. That, to me at least, is the most painful thing. We have just lost a year and a half of our lives as artists. So in some ways, yes, we got to make our second album, but also we were unable to really go to the next step of our careers, which is a tragedy. There's a lot of frustration with that. But at the same time that we were lucky to have the opportunity to make Mary throughout COVID.

SPEAKER_00:

So much to be grateful for. Yeah. And there's so many silver linings that can be found, but getting news like that, it's still, it's upsetting. What's difficult about it is that it who's to say where we'll be at that time that it's been rescheduled for. We didn't know six months ago that we'd be here now today. And really the test of this, uh, whole experience on a personal level. It's been a test in learning how to navigate and straddle uncertainty and still maintain my own sense of well-being. And doing that in the face of just complete confusion and lack of any real certainty has been difficult and a thing to really practice over the last year and a half.

SPEAKER_04:

Speaking about mental health, have either of you ever been diagnosed or treated with any kind of a mood disorder currently or in the past?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I have been diagnosed as having, well, I have anxiety disorder and I struggle with depression and I have for the majority of my life. I used to be very bad when I was younger. In my early 20s, I did some things that were very harmful to myself as a result of this. I had a hard time dealing with my emotions. I really struggle. I still struggle with depression especially and anxiety. And then the last year was very much like a turning point for me in addressing my mental health because I'm so used to having it. And I have a difficult time even talking about it. But I got so used to having depression and living with anxiety that it became something that I just accepted as a part of me. that I would very often ignore until it got very bad, until I was in a situation where I was harming myself as a result of it.

SPEAKER_04:

Was that like cutting or was that, you don't have to get into detail, but we've had people come on talking about harming themselves in order to help relieve the pain in a different way.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I guess I would, I don't want to go into detail about it because I'm quite ashamed. some of the ways that I would treat my body. But I did, when I was younger, I did want to end my life. When I was in my early 20s, I was in that very dark place. I've gotten better about it over the years, but I still very much struggle with depression. Even now, I'm working through it again with my therapist. And COVID really brought that demon version of myself up to the forefront because I was living alone during the pandemic. That must have been hard. It was very difficult because you're dealing with this thing that doesn't even happen in a lot of people's lifetimes, a pandemic of such magnitude. So having to go through those motions and experience that fear and isolation on my own in combination with The heartbreak and disappointment from all of our plans being canceled and then to the eventual political and social unrest that happened. In a lot of ways, I'm proud of myself because I had to face my demons in that period of time and I became cognizant of how courageous I actually am that I can live through such a moment. But I also have to be honest in saying that I had to work very hard to get to that point. And I'm still dealing with the aftershocks of that, even into the latter half of this year, the anxiety that came as a result of that. I became consumed with this fear that I was going to lose everything, more so than I ever have before. I became afraid that we were going to somehow lose our record. We were going to lose opportunities, that I was going to lose my partner, that I was going to lose my friends, my job. I just became consumed with fear. That what happened last year was just going to repeat itself again. And I'm working through that right now. Obviously, what happened just when our call started is like playing into my anxieties right now. But I'm still working through it. I hope I'm making sense. It's difficult to obviously talk about these things. But yes, just to cut a long story short, I do deal with depression and anxiety. I have for my whole life. I'm getting better at it. But yes, it's hard. Well, I'm going to give you

SPEAKER_04:

big props for speaking about it and accepting that as part of your being. Like I said, I've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and it's sometimes hard to talk about that and accept that as part of who you are. But the other side of it is that you are strong. I mean, you have gone through a lot and have come out the other side. And through a lot of experience and practice, you've been able to live with your depression and anxiety and have got so far with your music. And you've been able to express that so well in your music.

SPEAKER_02:

I just want to say I have this person, Jacob, and I'm just reflecting on how many times I've been in a situation where this person, Jacob... My bandmate and my friend has had my back when I've been lower than I've ever been. We have been in situations together that have just been so disappointing and dark. Even before COVID, we've just gone through so much together. So I just really count myself lucky that I have Jacob and Fielder to help me deal with these things and ultimately not just help me deal with it, but they provide me with a platform to write lyrics in which I get to express these feelings. And that's so rare. Not a lot of people get that opportunity and have that kind of good fortune. So in saying all of these things about how I struggle, I'm also very much aware that I'm so lucky. My therapy is my band. And getting to sit and write music with Jacob and have dinner with Fielder, that's so great. And ultimately, if I'm going to look back at the one thing that helped me more than anything during COVID... is that I got to make an album with them. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00:

I feel the same way, of course, Nina. And that's something that's at the core of our band. To be honest, we all have our struggles with mental health and emotional health. And this has been such an incredible catharsis for us. And particularly this album, I'm so proud of it because it really... My grandpa Bill used to say this a lot. It's like turning lemons into lemonade, you know? But it really perfectly exemplified that. It's a really rewarding process and incredibly empowering to channel that frustration into something positive, to build something with it with your friends and then share it. It's kind of what it's all about for us, you know?

SPEAKER_04:

You know, another thing you mentioned is that sharing your mental health challenges with each other, there's a special bond that happens when there's understanding. And when somebody is going through a tough time and you let your bandmate know, they will be able to support you in a much more compassionate way. And that really is healing. Sometimes when we are going through a mood disorder, we can reach for things to try to make us feel better. Sometimes those things are not necessarily good for us. It could be drugs, alcohol. It could be porn. It could be shopping. It could be anything that gives us kind of that rush. And then I heard that you were in sobriety. Was that something that happened with you? Yeah. Damn.

SPEAKER_00:

You know what? It's funny. Actually, just yesterday, I'm two years sober. I forgot to celebrate it. Yeah. As of yesterday. Yeah. I feel good today. Quitting drinking and using drugs was a really positive thing for me. And I'm so glad that I was able to slay that dragon before COVID really hit. I have so many friends that really struggled through COVID with drinking and drug abuse. Of course, so many people did. That whole situation, it's set up to basically have you reaching for the quickest way out of your reality that you can find. It was a total trap. So I'm really grateful to have landed myself in a comfortably sober place before COVID. And I can honestly say that for me, I was really able to steer clear of temptation or anything like that to go back into drinking or using drugs. I was able to really direct a lot of that energy into exercise, playing music. Those things totally rescued me from falling back into drinking during COVID. And meditation too is a really big practice for me, mindfulness meditation. So those tools really helped me from relapsing into drinking or using drugs.

SPEAKER_04:

What was the turning point for you to put the drugs and alcohol away?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I didn't have a big aha moment. There were a series of events that had to take place for me to slowly realize that I needed to make a change. But there were a number of events where I put myself in danger. Oh my God. Things that now when I think back, I can't believe that I would allow myself to do. Drinking, you know, it all stemmed from drinking, to be honest. But yeah, I was starting to get into like, gnarlier drugs. And I was starting to feel myself slip down that path. There were just a few consecutive events of waking up in places that I didn't want to wake up and like nearly getting myself in like serious trouble and putting myself at risk. Just like enough of those happened that I started to realize. And my sister was a big part in helping me. She recognized that problem before I did. And literally took stuff away from me that I had. Like, come on, let's get control here. Sort of hearing her say that was a big moment for me, for sure. I continued to mess up a bit after that, but I'd say that if there was like a turning point, it was her intervening. And so I always encourage people to do that for their loved ones. If they have a feeling that they should, because it made a huge difference in my life, having her there and, and, Having the courage to say, this isn't right. What you're doing is wrong.

SPEAKER_04:

Oftentimes, it's that person that loves you, cares about you, knows you, that gets in your face and is very honest with you in a very caring way. And maybe at the time, a lot of people may say, be surprised at the conversation or it might be awkward or maybe it gets them angry and they're not prepared to hear all of it. But thankfully, you listened. You had enough love and respect for your sister to really think about what was going on. So I congratulate you. Two years is a long, good amount of time. Did you do that on your own? Did you go to rehab?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. For me, I actually found a lot of support from AA. I was helped a lot just by... hearing people's stories and talking with people and meeting people. I didn't have to become like married to the doctrine of AA or become very zealous about it. But a lot of the core principles and the community around it was super helpful. So that was a great tool for me. There were a number of books that I read that helped shift my perspective on it. And then really thinking of it less of giving up something and And more about gaining something. When I got into that mindset of gaining from not using or drinking, again, it sounds simple, but that really felt like the key for me. Because I'm not waking up sick and hungover or getting drunk at two in the afternoon every day or whatever. Look at these other things I get. Look at these other things I'm able to invite into my life, which sounds simple. It's not. Easier said than done, I guess. But that mindset was a huge key for me, along with the support from AA and other people and books.

SPEAKER_04:

I think that's really important because, you know, drugs and alcohol might've been your friend for a long time. And there's probably also a grieving process to letting that go, but to really focus on what you're gaining and the healthier, better life and better relationships, better music, all of these things really kind of opens up the perspective and focuses it on the right things. But thank you so much for sharing that, Jacob. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

hell yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And Nina, I wanted to get to your song, Rabbit. And you said that it was about an abusive relationship with a powerful person. And there are a lot of people that get into abusive relationships and there are consequences to that emotionally. What were some of the things that you had to deal with as the aftermath of that relationship.

SPEAKER_02:

I was with this person for quite a long time on and off from the time that I was 18 to about 25. And not only was he influential and powerful, he was also much older than me. He was over a decade older than me. There was a lot of power play happening there and the relationship itself was marked by a lot of emotional and sexual abuse primarily, which was anchored by this idea that he instilled within me that if I had ever left the relationship, you know, I would fail to do anything, my life would be over, that I was worth nothing without him. which in retrospect, you kind of have to experience that to really understand. But if somebody tells you that enough times and with enough frequency and you start to believe it wholeheartedly, you really do. And especially when you are insecure and young like I was. So I believed that for a very long time. In fact, even after I left, which was part courage, part just growing apart, I felt the repercussions of that for a long time. I felt like I had to really rebuild my life. I didn't have the confidence to do anything. I was very much lost in the world for quite some time without him being there to define me, which is what he was. He defined a huge chunk of my young adult life and suddenly he was gone. So that was hard to deal with. And in combination, the trauma that I experienced from being with him carried itself over into my personal relationships with other people and more predominantly my romantic relationships with other people. The shockwaves of which I'm still dealing with, learning to accept the love that I deserve. trusting my partner implicitly, not assuming that this concept of sex is a monetary exchange or something that can be demanded of me. These are all things that I had to learn and talk through largely with myself and my close friends. And I made a very clear decision not to ever go into specifics publicly about my experience and who it was and what exactly I went through in order to save myself mentally and protect myself and the people around me. But yeah, it was a long process. A lot of conversation went into that. I'm still having conversations about it. It's getting better. I feel like for the first time in many years, I don't really find myself thinking about him very much anymore. He feels like a distant memory. I also recognize that I am who I am because of him, in spite of all the the bad things that happened. There are many wonderful things that came of it as well that I hold on to and cherish and I'm thankful for. And I'm finally coming to a place in my life where it's a part of the fabric of who I am and ultimately for that I am grateful.

SPEAKER_00:

A witness to Nina's experiences and growth over the years is that it was so cool to share Rabbit, to share that song from the upcoming album because it It so directly addresses suffering that Nina has experienced and many other people can share, but frames it in such an active and empowering way. That just felt like such a wholly exciting and positive thing to share right now. It's an act of courage, like we're building a world where you can just fucking freak out and cry and scream and release your suffering together here with us at our show, listening to our song. It's about come here and let's just scream our pain together. That's like the most beautiful thing to me. And it's so important right now, I feel like more than ever, to be a voice in that direction of building things up instead of tearing things down. Even when you have every reason to tear somebody down, you know, Putting our energy as a band collectively into creating that space for people and making something beautiful out of our suffering, that's it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I felt all of that. I mean, every band brings a different energy to their fans, but to be able to release those emotions during a show, how great does that feel? You've had a lot of really great musicians praise your work. We talked about Dave Grohl. I read PJ Harvey from Sonic Youth, Kim Gordon. And you also recorded your second album at Dave Grohl's studio, 606. And you're going to be performing with them. How did that connection with the Foo Fighters happen?

SPEAKER_02:

I have a friend, Virginia, who was friends with him and she sent him our music randomly and he became a fan and eventually I had the opportunity to meet him in person. Very briefly, he just came forward and he was like, do you guys want to record your album at Studio 606? They'll let you guys do it here for free. It's very sudden, unexpected. I remember I texted Jacob and he didn't even believe me. I think it was like the vibe. We were all just like, what? This is crazy. And then nine months later, and we were doing exactly that. We were recording at Studio 606, you know, for free. And then all the amazing sound engineers and we were surrounded by all this history, not just the history of the Foo Fighters, but of Nirvana and so many other incredible bands and the ghosts of the bands that all recorded on this unique soundboard that we were recording on too. So it was a very, like, unreal experience. And what a beautiful way to turn the page on what 2020 was to take all the songs we wrote come to this incredible studio as this young band and make our music in that space you know and then release that to the world if you told like the teenage version of us that would be happening we would like die because it's just it's so cool

SPEAKER_00:

it was just such a triumph for us on a personal and emotional level too and uh Such an act of incredible generosity for them to open the doors to us. It was like the high point of our year as a band, but as individuals too. It was so healing for us to do that.

SPEAKER_04:

That's super exciting. Like I was telling Nina earlier, I feel like Dave Grohl is like the top of the rock pyramid, being in the Foo Fighters, Nirvana, and then also being like a super cool guy. But Nina, you mentioned therapy. as a way to talk through some of the things that are going on with you. Do you have any other methods that you do to keep yourself mentally healthy and make your mental health a priority?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there's a couple things I do. I find that I'm at peace when I'm in nature. So at times when I'm feeling very overwhelmed or more depressed than normal, I like to take off, go somewhere where I can be you know, isolated around trees or near the ocean. That grounds me immediately, particularly the ocean. I feel like I'm so connected to the water. So I go there a lot when I'm feeling down. But I think the most important thing that I do for myself, and it's something that I learned from my father, who's also struggled with depression his whole life. It's going to sound a He always told me ever since I was a little girl that the best way to deal with my problems is to talk to myself out loud and give a name to that version of myself that I'm talking to. So my dad has this character that he calls Giovanni and he talks to Giovanni in the mirror every morning and Giovanni will tell him like, I hate you, you know, whatever's bringing my dad down. And my dad will tell Giovanni like, no, you're wrong. This is how it should be. And in that process of talking to himself, he feels better. And I carry that with me as well. I find a lot of empowerment in self-reflection, saying my feelings out loud to myself. Even if I can't give myself love in that moment, even if I can't say, it's okay, Nina, you're incredible. I think just acknowledging how I'm feeling allows me to understand myself. And I can get through situations a lot easier that way. I did that a lot during COVID. I'd have these conversations with myself, and I'd call my mom and my dad, and I'd talk through it with them. And that helped me massively. This is the first time that I've

SPEAKER_04:

actually heard saying to talk out loud to yourself, almost thinking of ways to battle those negative emotions. that can sometimes bring us down, you know, that may not even be true, but sometimes come up when we're in a depression.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's funny to say that, like this concept of talking to yourself, but I always recommend that to my friends. I think it's such a cathartic way to handle any emotion that you're feeling, you know, joy, anger, sadness, anxiety, because even if you don't get anywhere, which is very often how I feel after I have a conversation with myself, it makes the feelings that you're feeling in your head, you know, they become less monstrous. They become tangible because you can say what it is out loud. And ultimately by doing that, I discovered that I actually have a lot more trust in myself than I ever allowed myself to have before. And I'm a lot stronger than I think I am, you know, just by virtue of the fact that I'm able to address that I'm feeling to myself in an honest and open way.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

it's

SPEAKER_04:

also good when you're alone because there's something about having voices out loud that makes you feel like there's more than one person. Is there anything else that you would like to say about mental health or about Kills Birds?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think one thing that I recognize just from us having this conversation is for me, I think there is a lot of like, it still is like this inherent shame and admitting that you do have a mental disorder, you do struggle with depression and anxiety. I think that stigma still exists and it's very common, you know, and I think it's hard to be open about that because, you know, it requires a certain level of vulnerability and openness that can be scary. But even just us having this conversation today, I feel so much better because you find that so many people are dealing with these issues. So many people are going through so much pain and heartache and difficulty on a daily basis. And I'm finding that the more open that we can all be, like the more we can help each other, that is what your podcast is really doing. And I think that's really great because yeah, in talking to you today, I'm remembering and realizing again that that's kind of the key really in maintaining a healthy mental state is having somebody to talk to and I hope everybody has that. And if they don't, you know, they can find somebody or reach out to somebody or they can find some solace in our music. I hope Kills Burrs offers some solace as well.

SPEAKER_00:

In some ways, personal suffering is part of what constitutes life. It's a part of life. And for many people, it's mental health, emotional health. Learning how to navigate that suffering and to channel it into something positive constructive into a vision that you can get behind or believe in has been, for me, it feels like the only way to sustain and to move forward is to be thinking of my suffering as a way to build. And art has been the way for me. Being in this band, writing songs, performing, that's my vision. That's the way that I can do it. There are so many ways to do it. And in a very open, friendly way, just invite anyone and everyone to try to find that for themselves.

SPEAKER_04:

Next up, in preparation for National Eating Disorders Awareness Week, we have the founder and CEO of the National Alliance for Eating Disorders, Joanna Kendall. Joanna is author of the book, Life Beyond Your Eating Disorder, and shares her own 10-year experience with eating disorders. She talks about recovery, how the Alliance can help, and more information on their Not One More Weekend on February 25th to 27th, featuring advocates like Demi Lovato. Now let's hear Joanna Kendall share her knowledge and advice. We've had quite a few musicians that come on the podcast that have talked about eating disorders. The most recent was Lindsey Stirling. We've also had Gabby Hanna and Brian Wheat of Tesla talk about eating disorders. So Being in the performing arts, people might be more conscious of the way that they look and about their weight. Would you say

SPEAKER_03:

that's true? So I think it's a combination of a lot of things. When you take a look at the temperament that typically individuals that experience eating disorders have, it's that perfectionistic, going at all costs, the hard worker. And a lot of those traits are actually what makes a really good musician, that persistence. So you have individuals that have these character traits that end up in the music field, and then you have the added pressure of needing to look a certain way, appearing a certain way. And that perfect storm, along with genetics, with other mental health issues like depression and anxiety, it all comes together. And that's why it makes individuals, particularly musicians, performers, dancers, individuals where their body is part of their instrument, we'll see more incidence rates of eating disorders.

SPEAKER_04:

You used to be a ballerina. And I was wondering if you could tell me why you first decided to create the National Alliance for Eating

SPEAKER_03:

Disorders. Great question. As you said, I was a professional ballet dancer. And unfortunately, for over 10 years of my life, when I was 11 and a half, actually, I experienced various types of eating disorders. I tend to call myself a very non-discriminatory eating disorder human, meaning I experienced many of them. It wasn't just one type. And for me, it was absolutely very similar to what I just shared. All of those things that came together to make that perfect storm. Eating disorders ran in my family. I was anxious. I I don't even remember a time in my life where I didn't struggle with anxiety. I was a perfectionist. I was a people pleaser. I live in the world that's very weight conscious, fat phobic. And then I was a ballet dancer. And unfortunately, there's still many truths about what you need to look like. And for me, it was a very simple diet that I went on to lose weight before an audition that turned into an almost deadly eating disorder. And it's really important for me to say, I never had this choice to have an eating disorder. And I think that's a very big misnomer with individuals who are like, oh, you chose this, but I'm here to tell you that eating disorders are not disorders of choice. They're biopsychosocial illness, and people don't choose to have eating disorders. They don't choose to have diabetes or cancer or any other physical ailment. So for me, I experienced my eating disorder for over a decade. There were many things that happened during my struggle that really laid out the blueprint for me starting the Alliance further down the road. I wasn't able to get access to care because at that time when I finally reached out for help, I was experiencing binge eating disorder. I was living life in a much higher weight body. So insurance wouldn't pay for it. And my family, unfortunately, didn't have the means to pay for it. So I wasn't able to get access to care. I didn't know where to turn for help. There wasn't this group or organization where I could call up and say, I'm struggling with an eating disorder. Where do I go? So I ended up going to see a therapist who didn't work with eating disorders, but worked with substance use. And there's a lot of similarities between substance use and eating disorders, but there's a lot of differences also. And when I went and I saw her, she said to me, I'm really happy that you're here, but I need you to know that you're going to be struggling with this for the rest of your life. But in that moment, what I really needed was for someone to say, it gets better. I really knew at that moment that why am I going to even try? And so I continued to experience my eating disorder for a while longer. Ultimately, I found my way to a specialist that worked with eating disorders and it was a game changer. My journey to recovery wasn't linear. It was full of trips and falls and very messy. But ultimately, I found my recovery about 22 years ago. And after I found my recovery, what I knew that I wanted to do more than anything was speak to that seventh grade me who felt like she didn't deserve to be seen and heard or didn't deserve to take up space. And that led me to founding the Alliance.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, thank you for being a superhero. Because, you know, we have something called check your head superheroes, because these are the silent battles of our lives, mental health conditions, eating disorders, and oftentimes there are co-current things that are happening. Like you mentioned binge eating, but I also read that there were times where you were anorexic and also suffered with bulimia. One thing I think is really important is that family genetics is a strong tie because I think there's a lot of myths out there with eating disorders and the same thing with mood disorders. Oftentimes they're passed down. through families. And I think it's important to note because sometimes when people think that you have control or you wanted to have this eating disorder, there's a level of guilt that you can feel, you know, as if you have control and you don't, because nobody would want to have that. It's such a hard, difficult struggle. And I know that with eating disorders, it's one of the highest, if not the highest rate of losing your life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, absolutely. So eating disorders have the second highest lethality rate. It's just behind opioid addiction with every 52 minutes, someone losing their life as a direct result of their eating disorder. And I'm so happy that you brought up control, you know, eating disorders, their coping mechanisms, their maladaptive coping mechanisms that can be very unhealthy and very deadly, but they are coping mechanisms. An individual will oftentimes start experiencing an eating disorder just very similarly to someone using drugs or alcohol or gambling or sex or whatever it is when they're trying to just cope with life. A lot of individuals with eating disorders have experienced trauma, specifically with post-traumatic stress disorder. You'll have individuals that don't feel enough or feel less than, and this is the way that they're trying to make it through. And the crazy thing about eating disorders, which was So huge for me is that my eating disorder was so much about control. But what I've learned in my recovery is that it was a very elusive form of control. For so long when I was in my eating disorder, I thought I was driving that proverbial car. But in reality, my eating disorder was driving the car. And I was just a really bad backseat driver that thought I was controlling where it was going. And it wasn't until my recovery that I actually was able to climb over and grab a hold of the wheel and And I will tell you, for anyone who's listening who's experiencing eating disorder, recovery was the scariest and hardest thing I ever did. Because even though it was my worst enemy and it was the thing that was going to kill me, it also was my safety blanket. It still was how I got through life. For me, it was just... One step forward, three steps back, two steps forward and one step back. And the difference between eating disorder recovery and like substance use recovery, the majority of folks believe in abstinence to substances. You can't abstain from food, right? You have to experience it numerous times a day. So it's going to be a little trickier in that respect. I think all recoveries are very difficult, but in that respect, you can't just abstain from your drug of choice, if you will.

SPEAKER_04:

So you have to learn how to eat in a healthy way. You were saying at the time, it was hard to find organizations that focused on eating disorders. And thankfully now, I think on our website on checkyardpodcast.com, we probably have about four or five. So thank you for starting getting that ball rolling. In your recovery, were you able to find a therapist or someone to help guide you through that whole

SPEAKER_03:

learning process? Yeah, absolutely. I finally was able to get access to care through a therapist and higher levels of care. And eating disorders are not something that you can fix or heal on your own. For so long, I thought, here I am. I've got moderate intelligence. I have willpower. I should be able to do this on my own. And I had to know and hear. It's not up to you to fix or heal on your own. You absolutely need help. You need the assistance of a therapist, possibly a dietician, possibly a physician, a psychiatrist, a team to help get you through because you're going to be doing so much unlearning and you're also going to be needing to fill up that proverbial toolbox with other tools. And as much as I would love to say, oh, you can just one day like flip the switch and It doesn't happen that way because that didn't happen for me and it hasn't happened for anyone that I worked with over the last 20 some years. You'd actually

SPEAKER_04:

talked about a lot of myths around eating disorders.

SPEAKER_03:

So one of the things that I like to always bring in is that eating disorders do not discriminate. I still think in 2022, we have this archaic stereotype of who develops eating disorders and what they look like. And so I'm here to say that eating disorders do not discriminate between age, gender, race, class, sexual orientation, body shape, and size. Everyone is at risk of developing an eating disorder. And unfortunately, because so much of our society and our healthcare professionals have this idea of that lifetime after school special, that's who develops eating disorders, so many individuals are missed. In fact, out of all humans that experience eating disorders, only 6% are medically underweight. So one of the things that we talk about whenever you're relaying information about eating disorders, do not only focus on body weight, shape, and size, because someone can be an average size or higher weight body and they could be dying from their eating disorder. In fact, there's a type of eating disorder called atypical anorexia, which follows all the characteristics of anorexia nervosa. The only difference is that there's not that extremely underweight body type. And one of the things that research has showed is that Folks can be in higher weight bodies and be dying of malnutrition and starvation. So again, that number on the scale is not the only telltale. It's actually one of many because you could have someone who lives life in a much higher weight body that has a very slow heart rate, that has all of these things that we see in very low weight restricting anorexia nervosa.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, one thing you mentioned is that it took a while for people to really get diagnosed for eating disorders and you just mentioned how it could be hidden in so many ways. What are some signs or symptoms that you should look for with somebody that might have an eating disorder?

SPEAKER_03:

We can definitely say like a change in weight, right? If there's a diminishment or an increase in fluctuation, that may be a sign. You're going to look for change in temperament. Like how is their mood? Are they more depressed? Are they more isolated? Are they, for example, making excuses around food and mealtime? Oh, I already had a big meal or I have a stomachache. I have a headache and like avoiding food. For example, if they're experiencing bulimia nervosa, if you notice that after they've consumed food, that they get up and go to the restroom, that might be a telltale sign. It just means they have to use the restroom, but it could be that as well. If, for example, they're hiding food under their bed or in drawers to anticipate a binge, but as far as temperament, more depression, higher anxiety, a lot of detachment, and just very erratic being or mood.

SPEAKER_04:

One thing I thought was really exciting is that you were part of the first ever roundtable at the White House to speak about eating disorders. What were your goals and what

SPEAKER_03:

were you able to accomplish with that? I was so honored that I was able to go to the White House under the Obama administration and I was able to be there in the capacity of being someone of lived experience because as much as I would love to say that I'm a clinician, I'm not. I'm a two-time grad school dropout. I thought I wanted to be a psychologist, but I realized that what makes me really excited is to be an advocate, to use my voice and to be able to share with someone, I see you, I hear you, I know what you're going through. You're not alone and it does get better. And basically it was the first time in the history of our country that there was a conversation like that. And it was more of an information session of here's the issue. This is why insurances are still not covering eating disorders. This is what we need. And it's been really phenomenal to see that growth So we're working very closely now with the Biden administration. I was given the opportunity to sit on a special committee of serious mental illness, where we're able to really talk about the fact that eating disorders really are serious mental illness. And so it's been really amazing just to see that from 2016, when we passed the first ever piece of legislation in the history of our country surrounding eating disorders to now, all these different branches of government, we still have so far to go. But it's just really amazing to see the conversation go in that direction.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, thank you so much for all that great hard work that you're doing and moving the needle in a positive direction. I want to get to the upcoming Not One More Weekend, February 25th to the 27th, 2022. Can you give me a brief description on what it's about and what you're trying

SPEAKER_03:

to do there? Yeah, absolutely. So February is Eating Disorders Awareness Month, with the last week of February being National Eating Disorders Awareness Week. We started this Not One More weekend. And the reason why we call it Not One More is I had been working with this family that had a young son, and I found out in between interviews that he had passed away. And I looked at my colleague and I said, that's it, not one more life being stolen from this insidious disease. And that really became the backbone of what this weekend is. It's a three-day global event that's based on our pillars of health, support, and recovery. So Friday, February 25th is our National Day of Help. And we remind everyone that it is okay to reach out for help. Not only is it okay, it's necessary. And then Saturday, February 26th is our National Day of Support. And we have a 16-hour support group marathon. So from 8 a.m. Eastern Standard Time to midnight, Every hour on the hour is a different support group. So general eating disorder group, a group for individuals that are male identifying, loved one support group, an obsessive compulsive disorder group, and a special group from our facilitators that are living their lives in recovery. So we're hoping to have about 3,000 people this year attend our groups. And then Friday, February 27th is our national day of recovery where we're We're urging people to live their life beyond their eating disorder and to live life. And it all ends with our rally for recovery. And we have the fabulous and amazing Demi Lovato. They are going to be speaking. We also have amazing speakers like Asia Mayrock. We have a fabulous panel discussion on eating disorders. So really excited about it. It's our big event of the year. And people can find out all information about it at notonemore.co.co. So hope you'll join us.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm definitely going to join you. And the Check Your Head podcast is a partner and we are definitely supporting you all. Is there anything else you'd like to say about the Alliance or about eating disorders

SPEAKER_03:

in general? First, thank you so much for having me on today. And if you are struggling with an eating disorder, please know that you're not alone. Please know that it does get better. Please know that there's help and support, that you don't have to go through this on your own and by yourself. And also, if your loved one is experiencing an eating disorder, please know that we are here to support you. So please reach out to the Alliance. We're very easy to connect with. If you go to allianceforeatingdisorders.com, you can find out all about our services. We have a toll-free helpline. You call us, you can talk to an expert in the treatment of eating disorders. We have weekly free therapist-led support groups, and we're just here to walk alongside you on you and your loved one's journey to recovery. But know that it definitely gets better. There is life beyond your eating disorder and that you're not alone on this journey.

SPEAKER_04:

A big thank you to our musical guests, Nina Letty and Jacob Loeb of the band Kills Birds, and our mental health expert, Joanna Kendall from the National Alliance for Eating Disorders. For more information on Kills Birds, their new album Married, and upcoming tour, visit killsbirds.com and follow them on their socials at killsbirdsmusic. Stay tuned to listen to a clip of their single Rabbit at the end of our episode. And for more information on Joanna Kendall and the National Alliance for Eating Disorders, visit allianceforeatingdisorders.com or checkyourheadpodcast.com. For more information on their Not One More Weekend, visit notonemore.co. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental health that you need.

SPEAKER_01:

How could I let you? How could I?

UNKNOWN:

How could I?

SPEAKER_01:

Check

SPEAKER_04:

Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered with Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley, Ear Shop Media, and Lemon Tree Studios in Los Angeles. Visit checkyourheadpodcast.com where we have over 100 solutions for mental health. Be our friends on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch us on YouTube and support us with a kind donation on checkyourheadpodcast.com. Check Your Head Podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.

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Mari Fong

Host
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Kat Jensen

Producer