Matt Brandyberry (From Ashes to New): Living w/Panic Attacks w/Eva Marie (Psychotherapist, Eva Under Fire)

Mari Fong interviews Matt Brandyberry of From Ashes to New and Eva Marie AKA Amanda Lyberg, psychotherapist and lead singer of Eva Under Fire.  Matt Brandyberry shares his story what led to his personal breakdown which triggered panic attacks, anxiety and depression. The pros and cons of competitiveness. From Ashes to New's single and latest album "Panic" is an insight to these moods along with 3 EPs dropped in 2021 entitled "Quarantine Chronicles." Listen to a clip of "Panic" after Matt's interview.

Next, our mental health expert is a psychotherapist, clinical psychologist and lead singer of the band Eva Under Fire, Eva Marie AKA Amanda Lyberg. Eva Marie shares panic attack solutions, how to advocate for your mental health on tour, and why facing our demons is hard, but better than drowning our sorrows. Listen to a clip of Eva Under Fire's single "Unstoppable" off their debut album, Love, Drugs & Misery.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and we're in the month of March, which is Women's History Month. And in celebration, the Tubi Channel is featuring a new music documentary entitled Gone Before Her Time about four iconic female musicians. Amy Winehouse, Selena, Aaliyah, and Lisa Left Eye Lopez of TLC. I was thrilled and honored as both a mental health advocate and a music journalist to be interviewed for this documentary to comment on these four incredible artists and play a part in telling their stories. So please download the Tubi channel to watch free streaming movies and TV shows, including the new documentary, Gone Before Her Time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Skrillex, with the lead singer even naming his beloved dog Chester after Chester Bennington of Linkin Park, another admired band. Their third and latest album, Panic, dropped alongside the Pandemic Anxiety in 2020, yet the song was actually about the panic attacks experienced by lead singer Matt Brandeberry of From Ashes to New. Matt shares his story of panic attacks and alcohol abuse, along with his solutions for recovery. From Ashes to New also dropped three EPs in 2021 called Quarantine Chronicles, and we'll hear a clip of their single Panic at the end of Matt's interview. Next, our featured expert is a psychotherapist and clinical psychologist specializing in anxiety and addiction recovery, who also happens to be a singer of rock band Eva Under Fire. Our mental health expert slash musician today is Amanda Lyberg, also known as Eva Marie. lead singer of Eva Under Fire. Eva Marie will talk about panic attack solutions, advocating for your own mental health on tour, and facing our demons versus drowning our sorrows. We'll also hear a clip of Eva Under Fire's new single, Unstoppable, off their upcoming debut album, Love, Drugs, and Misery. But first, let's hear Matt Brandeberry of From Ashes to New share his story. The last album that she put out called Panic, actually started out as a song dealing with anxiety. When you look back, when was the first time that you noticed anxiety being a problem or an issue in your life?

SPEAKER_01: 3:04

So growing up, my grandmother was a very strong-willed person. And she used to tell me anytime that I would get sick with a stomachache or a headache, she would say, oh, Matthew, it's all in your head. Now that I'm a little older, I look back and realize that was her tradition. trying to create a positive out of a negative. And obviously, we're all familiar with the placebo effect. So she was just trying to take my mind off things. But as I grew up, I kind of kept that mentality that she instilled in me. And I applied that to almost everything that I did in life. So when I would have an anxious moment, or I would have a scenario where I was feeling anxious, I would just tell myself, oh, it's just nerves are going to be fine, you can move forward. So I never really knew exactly what anxiety was. And I was actually guilty early on of telling people that were close to me who had dealt with these types of things that it was all in their head because that's what I had learned. I had learned it's all in your head. You can defeat this on your own and you're making the worst out of a scenario that you don't have to. But then I had a scenario several years ago where I kind of had a bit of a breakdown. And from that point forward, I started dealing with panic attacks and That's when I realized like, wow, this is really real. And this is really something I'm trying my best to control by telling myself that it's all in my head and it's not working. So what is going on? So that's when I realized around 2016 is when I really realized, okay, this is a real thing. And now I know exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_03: 4:35

Well, I'm glad you did the research that the education needed to kind of find out what was going on because it's a scary thing. One thing you said was that sometimes it comes on Without any rhyme or reason, without any kind of trigger, it just happens.

SPEAKER_02: 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:51

Can you give me an example of what that's like and maybe a time where that happened kind of out of the blue?

SPEAKER_01: 4:57

Sure. My anxiety early on stemmed from something that would trigger it. Yeah. The biggest trigger that I'm familiar with in mind was heart palpitations. And that came from underlying stress or overconsumption of caffeine while having underlying stress. And I would have a heart palpitation and that would send my mind into overdrive, fight or flight. And I would just spiral out of control. That would happen. And then I'd have to lay down and take a nap and try and start my day all over again because I was already at the point where it just felt like it all came crashing down. But I mean, that all stemmed from A scenario in my life where I felt like I put all my eggs in one basket and that basket kind of tipped over and all those eggs broke. So that was the underlying problem that was stressing me out to the point where I was dealing with these physical ailments that were creating panic attacks.

SPEAKER_03: 5:51

We've had quite a few musicians talk about panic attacks on the podcast. Now you talked about that situation that happened a few years back. Was that when the band was going through changes in its members? Can you tell me about what was going on there?

SPEAKER_01: 6:05

It's exactly what it was. You know, I started the American dream backwards. So like most people, they'll get the job and they'll have the family and they'll get the house with the fence and the yard and the dogs. And that's what I did. And then I had the opportunity with music to risk it all, really. It was putting all of your money on red and let the wheel spin and hoping that it hit. And that's what I did with my music career. I traded in the security for my family, the house, and I traded all that in for a shot at something greater. And the band was given a rare opportunity out of nowhere. It kind of just happened for us. It was one of those luck stories that people talk about, and we were off and running. Everything wasn't so smooth. We weren't making a lot of money, but the goal was to continue working as hard as we could to get to the point where money didn't become an issue anymore. I'd gone from having a pretty cushy career to going to a place where it wasn't as secure and knowing that I had to work through it because I didn't have any other options. I believe in if you want to do something in life, you can't have a plan B. If you have a plan B, you'll never focus hard on your plan A. I left all my plan Bs behind and I focused all on the band. When we went through member changes in 2016 and That was a wake-up call for me. This could all end in the blink of an eye. If it all ends, what's my next step? Because everything else is behind me. I don't have anything else ahead of me except for this. There was one very specific night that I realized that. And that very specific night, I don't know what a nervous breakdown is. I can assume that what happened to me is a nervous breakdown. But that was the night that I kind of realized that it really didn't matter. If I die here tonight, What does it really matter? That was an eye-opener to me. I'm at a point in life where I don't care. What just happened? I cared about everything, and now I'm at a point in life where it feels like it's over anyway, so whatever. I

SPEAKER_03: 8:08

think I also read that there was a time where you signed with Better Noise, and a couple of the members decided to drop out for whatever reasons. Was that the incident that made you feel that way, or what was it exactly that you feel better? triggered this nervous breakdown?

SPEAKER_01: 8:26

We had spent a lot of time on tour in 2015 and 2016. We had just dropped day one and we were out a lot. So we didn't spend a lot of time at home and we were touring in an RV. We weren't making a lot of money. Temperaments were running on high and we had gotten at each other a lot. Some people were partying harder than others. I was that person. There was a lot of different things that played into the band splitting ways. And I am not exempt of fault by any means. I think that we all played an equal part in what happened. But we had a lot of important things lined up. And our singer was quitting. We're a two vocalist band. I'm one of them. And then we have another singer. So our singer was quitting. We had a lot of things lined up. Expectations were really high for the band. And I couldn't get him to stay. I'm like, hey, can I Just get you to stay for this show and this tour that we have lined up. And then after that, we'll figure it out. And I couldn't find a replacement. I had a lot of people that were relying on me. They were relying on the band. And I just felt like I failed everything. As a leader, I felt like I was just a failure. And failure is not something that I take kindly. I've grown up through sports. And I've grown up competitive. And my competitive nature is that you can't fail. That was a big failure to me. So having that big failure was a lot of stress. That was that moment when I realized that I was hopeless. I realized I wasn't going to be able to do anything. And I'm always the guy, I was like, you can find a solution to every problem. And I had run into a problem that I couldn't find a solution for.

SPEAKER_03: 10:08

Would you consider that nervous breakdown like a depression? Because it sounded like you felt hopeless and you felt, oh gosh, this is the end of the road for me. What's left? Nothing. Would you describe it as that? Or did you... Would you describe it as something else?

SPEAKER_01: 10:23

I mean, I guess it could be described that way. Honestly, I just know that I was a mess. And I had seen doctors and they diagnosed me with certain things and prescribed me certain medications to overcome those things. I'm not really sure exactly what I was dealing with. I just know that it was a really dark place. So if depression is a really dark place, that's where I was. And I know that anxiety was a big part of it because I couldn't get full sentences out. I couldn't get full thoughts out. I thought I was dying every hour. life was miserable. And there was so much behind the scenes that people didn't see that I was dealing with. And I felt like I couldn't open myself up to certain people because they would, you know, I'd be opening myself up for judgment in a very vulnerable place in my life that I didn't think that I was going to be able to tolerate that judgment.

SPEAKER_03: 11:10

You know, you're talking about what a lot of people feel when they're in the midst of depression and anxiety often comes with depression. But you said that you talked to some doctors to find out what you can do about the situation. What were some of the things that you came across that actually helped?

SPEAKER_01: 11:30

Everything that I had was a band-aid. It was a short-term solution to a long-term problem. They gave me Xanadix. They gave me Zoloft. They gave me Welbutrin. They gave me... You name it, I had it. And it was all... a short-term solution to a long-term problem. I mean, could I have used it long-term? Absolutely. And I'm not faulting anybody that does because some people's scenarios are worse than others and different than others. You know, everyone's wired differently. But for me, it was a short-term solution to a long-term problem. And that seemed to be the only fix that I could get from anybody was, here, take this medicine. So I began taking Zoloft, which I hated. So I gave that up for just taking Xanax as needed. And then I started taking Xanax almost daily, not as needed, just because it made me feel like there wasn't a care in the world. I'm like, oh, okay. I don't care about anything. This is great. But then I realized as I was trying to put my life back together, that that was inhibiting me from doing that. That was keeping me from caring enough to voyage forward. It was just keeping me kind of complacent and saying, hey, you feel good right now. Why do you need to do anything else? So then I started looking for holistic alternatives to better my well-being and my state of mind and move myself forward on my own behalf and at my own pace with what felt comfortable to me. And that's when I found yoga. I found meditation. I found healthy lifestyles and eating and stopping with substances and different things that I had been using. I had to get past that. Toxic relationships. Basically starting all over, but from a very clean place and just trying to clean up my lifestyle and clean up my mind at the same time. And those are the things that I found that worked best for me.

SPEAKER_03: 13:16

Well, that's a long journey. Just what you've said right there. I can only imagine some of the things that you went through and experienced during that time. I know that sometimes Xanax is used for panic attacks as needed, but it can also have an addictive quality. But then you said you also tried Zoloft and you hated it. What is it about that experience that didn't work for you?

SPEAKER_01: 13:40

It was more or less the same as Xanax for me. Those types of drugs just made me feel like, they made me feel better per se. They made me feel like, oh, okay, the world is not crashing down around you. But they also made me not really care if the world came crashing down around me. And I didn't like that because I'm tenacious about it. I'm a go-getter. I'm a person who wakes up every morning with a plan to go in and carpe diem. You know what I mean? I need to go and I need to seize the day. And that's been my mentality for almost all my life. So something that takes that away from me, sure, is masking one problem that I'm currently having, but it's taking away everything that I love about my life. And that was just horrible to me.

SPEAKER_03: 14:26

Going back to that time, you mentioned about partying too much. doing different substances. How did that play a factor in the turbulence during that time? I

SPEAKER_01: 14:38

used to party pretty hard when I was younger, in my teens. I actually started smoking cigarettes when I was 13. I grew up in the era of smoking cigarettes was cool, and I had an older sister and older friends. I guess I never really thought about addiction. I just did it. Then as I got into my 20s, I started drinking a lot. I drank really heavy for the better part of a decade. Some nights, lucky to be alive. And some of the decisions that I had made, lucky to be alive the next day. Those types of scenarios. And my personality is already a type A personality. So I'm already pretty confident in myself to the point where I feel like I can take the world on. And when I mixed that with alcohol, I was like Thanos. I could take on the universe. It didn't matter. That doesn't blend well with every personality. You know, it already doesn't blend well with every personality when it comes down to sober. But when you mix it with alcohol, it just becomes a whole different animal. And I think that's the best way to describe it is I was an animal. And I didn't take into consideration everybody around me. I only took myself into consideration. And it became pretty selfish of me. And I guess I didn't really see it because I feel like I'm an unselfish person sober. But when I'm drunk, I'm selfish as can be. It's kind of like Dr. Jekyll and Hyde. It was just a scenario where I guess I didn't really see it, but I would also drink to the point of blacking out all the time, so I didn't really know exactly what I was doing. I would only go on people's stories that they would tell me afterwards. It was when that regret really finally started to pile up of all the decisions that I made that I looked back and went, wow, I need to do something differently. The problem is that I did that twice in my life. It wasn't like I did it Once and then quit and I was done. I did that before I started the band. I had problems with alcohol. I had problems with personal relationships because of alcohol. From ashes to new, burning my life down and going to something new. That was where the band name came from. So I had started a healthy lifestyle and the band was the forefront of that. I had gone through having drinking problems and problems with friends and things because of my drinking problems. Being overweight because of my drinking problems. To quitting that, stopping that, going to the gym, getting into better shape and keeping my head clean and writing songs about my struggles. So that's how this all started. And then I fell down that hole again. And when I fell down that hole again, it kind of put me back in that same place, just with different relationships.

SPEAKER_03: 17:14

We have a lot of musicians that kind of fall into drugs, alcohol, self-medicating, different scenarios like that. Why do you think you took the drinking to that extent? I'm just wondering if there's any mental health issues underlying that or if it was just, you know, partying like a rock star.

SPEAKER_01: 17:33

Maybe a little bit of both. So, like I said earlier, I'm an all-in person. My mentality is to go out and get it, right? And that's what I write about. That's how I live my life. My lyrics aren't fiction. And when you would mix that with anything, I'm all in. I just go. The only thing that usually stops me is physically being stopped. That's the way that I've always been in my life. I just have a switch. Once I turn that switch on, the only thing that turns that switch off is the physical motion of turning that switch off. I know that sometimes drinking can mask personality problems. not being able to come out of your shell. And I know that drinking is a social activity because some people have a hard time socializing. For me, I didn't have that problem. I didn't have a problem socializing. I just know that when I drank, that just went tenfold. Like I socialized with literally everybody. It didn't matter. Sometimes that was a good thing and brought a good story out that you can tell people for years to come. And sometimes it was a bad thing. I just think that my personality changed. My personality is all in.

SPEAKER_03: 18:45

Taking things to the extreme, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01: 18:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 18:49

Okay, so when things crashed and burned with the band, how did you pick yourself up and put things back together? To

SPEAKER_01: 18:59

be honest, I still struggle with it to this day. And that was six years ago. Wow, that's a long time. But I still have those lingering effects from everything that happened to this day. So it's not like it's not a daily grind. It's definitely changed who I am. And I struggled daily to try and find that person again, or at least the better part of that person, because there was a bad part of that person. So I struggled daily to try to find that. But I just had to get back to doing what I do. I just had to get back to doing what I know best, competing. That's what I've done my entire life. I've played sports my entire life. So I had to get back to competing. I had to get back to looking for the truth in the world and the truth in myself. And I had to get back to writing music, creating songs. channeling that energy into an outlet that's better than any other outlet that I've ever had. That's what music really is to me. I say it on stage and I say it everywhere I go. It's therapy. It's the best therapy. It's cool because it's therapy for the listener and the creator. It's therapeutic. That's how I started the ball rolling forward was to just get back to doing what I know how to do best.

SPEAKER_03: 20:08

You're absolutely right. I do think musicians are healers. There was a social media post that I read of yours, and it read, after having my anxiety scream at me all day, this is exactly what I need, which was the panic music video. When your anxiety screams at you, what does it say?

SPEAKER_01: 20:25

That's hard. Stop. Give up. Quit. You're not good enough. Sucks. But that's what it is. That's an emotional question. Sorry, go ahead. No, it's

SPEAKER_03: 20:42

okay. Sometimes when we have to really stop and think, it maybe gives us some more insight on ourselves. But you talked about some of the ways that you've learned how to deal with these thoughts in your mind. Can you talk about how you put that at bay and some of the healthy things that you're doing now? Can

SPEAKER_01: 21:04

you just give me one second? Sorry. I'm going to choke up on everything I say now. Just give me one second to compose myself here. Wow. I don't think I've ever really talked about these things so much.

SPEAKER_03: 21:16

Tell me about how you're feeling. Why did that choke you up so much?

SPEAKER_01: 21:20

Like I said, I come from a competitive background, so everything for me is just win, win, win, win, win. When you feel like you're losing, it's like, how do you win? I'm just looking for ways to win. I think that's what my anxiety stems from is competitiveness. How do you win? How do you win when you don't really have the ability to do anything other than what you're capable of doing? That's what makes it difficult is that you can only do what you can do. And you can only get so good at what you can do. And you can become the best, really. I really feel like everybody has the opportunity to be able to become the best. But it's a grind getting there. And how long does it take, really? And I think that's what is screaming at you all the time is like, be better, do better, get better. When I was a kid, everyone just naysayed me, really. I had a hard time believing in myself because I couldn't find people that believed in me. I think that's why that question hit me so hard is it kind of just took me back to when I was a kid. It was like, you know, what does that anxiety scream at you? And it's do better, be better. To answer that question is like, how do you do that? Besides working your ass off all day, every day, how do you do that? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03: 22:28

And also, what is the win? What is it that represents a winner? There's so many different ways to describe what that means to you. And I guess it's personal for every person. But also being brought up in whether it's a society or whether it's a household that really encourages winning versus losing, that's very black and white. We all know that as we try to win, we can lose. There's a lot of mistakes that are made that teach us how to get better. How do you deal with that? Because there are losses and sometimes you have to step back. What is it? You fall back two steps. To go forward three steps.

SPEAKER_01: 23:12

So I'm like, yeah, I don't really know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:15

I guess the thing is, we all mess up. We all mess up.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

Yeah. I have a lyric in a song of ours called My Name. It's, you're only going to lose if you don't learn from your defeats. And that comes from a place of wisdom. That's not something that I always knew. I didn't know that our defeats were going to be the best learning tool for me to be able to move forward. But I guess it's like an NFL team watching tape at the end of the game that they just lost. Just trying to figure out, okay, how did we lose this game and how can we correct those mistakes? And that's just been a big part of my life since then is just trying to correct the errors and not make the same mistakes and not fall down. Like I said, I had a scenario where I had fallen down a hole and then I got back out and I fell down again. I'm trying not to do that. But my mentality, it's a winner's mentality. You have to win. Probably why I like Cobra Kai so much. It's kind of like with drinking, I guess. Maybe I'm just realizing this right now, but I don't know how to turn that off. So when I win something, okay, I got that. Now what? I'm the type of personality that's never really satisfied with each victory that I have. I see that as a victory, but I need another one. That's where my happiness stems from. It really is victory.

SPEAKER_03: 24:34

So that's almost like an obsession. okay, where's my next one? Just this feeling of, okay, I'm a winner, I'm a winner. But then there's the flip side when things don't work out that could also be like the double-edged sword. But it also sounds maybe like your self-esteem is wrapped up in the ability to win versus maybe other things about your personality.

SPEAKER_01: 24:56

Yeah, I think so. I think that just comes from years of being competitive. And that's just how it was wired. When you're young and you're, A sponge. You absorb everything. Young people are very impressionable. And I guess the impression that was left on me being competitive in sports was I have to win. You have to be the best. You know, I wasn't like the cool kid in school. I didn't have the circle of cool friends. So I wasn't winning there. At that point in time, it plays a big part on your psyche. So I looked for other outlets to just be a winner in everything else that I could do. Now I've found what I do is my comfort zone. being a musician. So I've been able to take those two things and put them together. And stemming back to the band and the onset of some of these issues, that's why the whole world came crashing down around me is because I found those two things that I really love and they both seem to be ripped from my grasp at one moment.

SPEAKER_03: 25:56

It sounds like the love and acceptance made you feel like you didn't have to prove yourself with winning. But there's also situations, I'm sure you can look back, where it seems like a door closes and slams in your face really hard. But then another opportunity comes up that's unexpected that might even be better and take you down a different road that might even be better in the long run.

SPEAKER_01: 26:23

Yeah, we're definitely in that scenario now from that door that closed. I know that now. But it also brought some things out that I didn't realize were there. That made it hard, but it still makes it hard. But I know that the overarching problem that we had at that point in time is now fixed and better. So I'm obviously good there. This industry in particular, it's actually really difficult to be yourself, believe it or not. That's one of the things that I struggle with every day is that I really just want to be myself. But then when I do that, I open myself to judgment. And I'm not necessarily concerned about the judgment, but the people that I work with or work for are... scared of the judgment that i could potentially have to endure and that makes them think a different way which then could shape my career in a different way because they pull strings on my career so it's just a big spider web and trying to navigate through a spider web is not easy

SPEAKER_03: 27:23

i mean especially being on tour that's a whole other thing how do you keep your mental health in check while you're on tour i

SPEAKER_01: 27:33

think i do all right on tour The longing for home, I think, helps you get through it. At the same time, it drives you mad. So when you're at home, you're just like, oh, man, I want to get back out. I can't wait to get back out. And then when you get back out, you're like, oh, man, I can't wait to get back home. I can't wait to get back home. So I think that it always kind of kept me on my toes. And it was just like, all right, this is a cool balance in life. There's no better therapy than being on stage in front of thousands of people and delivering your message or rocking out to your own music. I mean, it's killing. Of course, you butt heads with your bandmates and your crew and stuff like that, but that's to be expected. You're living with a group of people in a small room for an extended period of time. You're going to have that. I mean, that can get stressful, but knowing that I'm going to get back home to my family and to my comfort zone, that just makes it a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_03: 28:23

You mentioned things like meditation, exercise, diet, positive thinking. Can you touch on some of those as far as maintenance things you do for your mental health?

SPEAKER_01: 28:33

Positive thinking is the biggest thing because every thought compounds. It doesn't matter if it's a positive thought or a negative thought. Every thought that you have compounds and it escalates. Mentally, it's a scale. Any scale that's at 51% gets tipped that way. The more you think that way, the more that continues to happen. I was fortunate enough to go into the place that I was and get out of it. Still there, you know what I mean? Not as bad as it was, but still there. But I was fortunate enough to learn these things because, like you said, one door closes, another one opens. I was able to learn positive affirmation and manifestation. And if I didn't go through that, I may not have realized what it was. Now, looking back in hindsight, I think that my competitive nature and my always wanting to win, I think I was already manifesting without knowing. But now I know exactly why certain things worked and certain things didn't work. And it stems to positive thinking. The more negative you think, the more negative things are going to happen. The more positive you think, the more positive things are going to happen. And that doesn't mean that you're continuing to think positively something negative won't happen. That just means that it'll happen less frequently. That's where I try to stay. And it's, oh, it's not easy. It sucks. It sucks, especially when you're like, no, everything sucks. Everything's broken and everything sucks. It's hard to get out of that. We're creatures of habit. I try to look at that too and understand that I can continue to tell myself, no, it doesn't work that way. This is how it works. The more that I tell myself that, the deeper of a hole I dig. I just try to tell myself when I'm spiraling out of control, okay, Matt, you can continue spiraling out of control by Telling yourself that bad things keep happening, bad things keep happening. Or you can say, all right, this is enough of this bad stuff. I need to get out of this hole and I need to move forward. And this might come with me, but I need to defeat it.

SPEAKER_03: 30:44

Yeah, because it's like a battle in your mind where the tide is going down. I'm losing here. What's wrong with me? Why isn't this working? And then you've got to go against the tide by saying these positive things and putting yourself on a different track.

SPEAKER_01: 31:00

Our song, Forgotten, if you read the lyrics to Forgotten, using the tide reference,

SPEAKER_02: 31:06

it

SPEAKER_01: 31:06

says to feel like you're drowning. I wrote an ocean of its own from a perspective of having a cinder block tied around my ankle and at the bottom of a big body of water. I visualized what it would look like at the bottom of that body of water, peaceful, with the sky bright above me and me looking up from the bottom, knowing that maybe I'm 30 feet from the surface, and looking up and going, how do I get out of this? This is a situation where I feel like I'm way in over my head. I'm cinderblocked to the bottom of a lake, and how do I get out?

SPEAKER_03: 31:47

That's really poetic. And it actually is a great description of how we can feel at times when we feel like we're sinking. and having to find ways to come up for air or find ways to stay above the tide so that we don't sink. One thing that interests me is you mentioned meditation as something that you do. Tell me how you got into that and what it does for you.

SPEAKER_01: 32:10

So I used frequencies to start. So like binary sounds and different waveform frequencies. I was turned on to that because I actually had two different reasons. I had panic attacks that were waking me up at night. while I was sleeping, my brain was just waking me up out of a dead sleep. And then I also had tinnitus in my ear really bad. So my ear would ring really loudly and it would make it difficult to sleep because it was so loud. So I decided that I would start using frequencies that kind of mimicked the sound that was in my ear to try and sleep at night so that I would use that to drown out the sound that was in my ears. And then I realized the more that I researched, I realized that those frequencies actually were positively affecting my life. I didn't realize that I was just using it to try and stay asleep. And then I realized that particular frequencies work with different chakras. And I decided one day I was like, you know what? I'm going to try this frequency and I'm going to try and relax my mind because that's a really hard thing for me to do. I'm going to try and relax my mind and see where I go. I ended up venturing back to a time earlier on in life when I was really, really happy. I was like, wow, breakthrough. It wasn't like I thought about it. I was actually there. It was almost like I was asleep, but I wasn't asleep. I actually ventured back there. I felt like I was there in physical form. That was when I realized, wow, this actually works. That made me really happy. I'm really happy right now. How do I continue that? How do I continue this trend of happiness? Through those different types of exercises, I've been able to. And again, I steer up that path. I know that it works. And then for some reason, I decide to just not do it for a while. And then I get into a bad headspace. I'm like, I need to go back and I need to do that again.

SPEAKER_03: 34:06

You've obviously done some research and reading or maybe it's therapy that you found these different techniques. Where do you normally find these kind of techniques that help you? I

SPEAKER_01: 34:19

know that some people think it's foo-foo, but Danny, when he came in, He solved how bad of a headspace I was in. He didn't know anything that was going on. He was singing and we selected him to be in this band. So as we were working on the record and he got to know me personally, he realized how much I had been struggling and he recommended The Secret. And he was like, hey, I don't know what your thoughts are on something like this. But I know that this has worked for some people that I know. They've read this book and they've been able to pull themselves out of pretty dark places by what this book has to tell. Oddly enough, my wife, prior to that, told me that I should read that book because Jim Carrey had recommended it. She's like, you should read this book. I have a friend that's reading it. I think you would really like it. And I brushed it off. I'm like, nah. So finally, I listened and I decided to read it. And it was just the things in the book were just so specific. to the things that I was going through. But I was like, oh man, like maybe I'm creating this. I'm creating this for myself. And maybe if I change the way that I'm approaching, you know, trying to get out of this mess, maybe if I change my approach, I can actually get through this. That book was the forefront of me. And then there were just some other ones that were just about positive manifestation and affirmation that I read to try and stay in the headspace.

SPEAKER_03: 35:42

Thank you for that. One thing you talk about is panic attacks. What is one really good suggestion or a way that you deal with those panic attacks when they come on? What do you do to help quell those?

SPEAKER_01: 36:00

One of the things that I have learned over the course of the last couple years that have really helped me, and this might sound morbid, but it's to not care so much about dying, which Sounds terrible. But at the same sense, I've realized that my panic has always come from, oh man, this scenario is going to lead to this scenario, which is going to lead to ultimately death. So I had the doom, is what some people call it. I had the doom. And I realized to not care so much, because as long as I'm not inflicting that on myself, I have no control over it. I've been in a position my entire life, competitively, I have to control everything. That's not a good place to be in when it comes to things that you can't control at all. So one of the things that has made it easy for me is to let go of control of it and just go, you know what? I can't control this. And if this is going to happen, it's going to happen. But me thinking about it over and over and over again is just going to make it worse. And while I'm here and I'm alive and I'm doing the things that I love doing, I should enjoy them and not let these negative things come in and affect that. That's been the best therapy for me is to realize that I'm not in control of everything and I can only control the things that I can control and that we are all quite alike when it comes down to the actual fiber of our being. And that makes you feel not so alone.

SPEAKER_03: 37:31

Right. And one thing that you did with Panic is that you donated the proceeds to Crew Nation, the industry crews that are struggling during this pandemic. which I really praise you for. Do you have any other plans to spread this mental health message through actions in 2022? I

SPEAKER_01: 37:54

think a big thing for me is that helping people realize that it's okay to reach their hand out and go, hey, I'm struggling here. So that's what I try and do through music. That's the way that it comes out. And I've been told that that's the way that it is. Hey, do you realize that you opened my mind to this? Maybe that was me opening my mind and then you went, oh, aha. I'm just going to continue that really and just reach my hand out and say, hey, we're not alone. And I'm going to be a little bit more angsty too, to be honest, a little bit more to the edgy side of my personality and hope that helps everyone else realize that sometimes a good scream really, really, really helps.

UNKNOWN: 38:35

Make it go away.

SPEAKER_00: 38:36

I'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_03: 39:03

Next up, our expert is a clinical psychologist, psychotherapist, and lead singer of rock band Eva Under Fire. Eva Marie, also known as Amanda Lyberg, has the clinical experience as a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety and substance abuse recovery with the added experience of being a touring musician. Eva Marie will share her professional insight on panic attacks, alcohol abuse recovery, and more. Now let's hear expert Eva Marie, a.k.a. Amanda Lyberg, share her knowledge and advice. I just love your unique perspective on being a musician and a psychotherapist. I feel like you have this really calming presence about you, which is so important as a psychotherapist to feel like this care and trust at the same time. I love that, and I appreciate you. Going back to Matt Brandenberry's interview earlier, What is it that kind of stuck out to you as he was talking?

SPEAKER_04: 40:06

What I really like about From Ashes to New is that they've always been authentic. Their story is what they've written about, and they're very honest in their lyricism, and they're very honest in the emotions that they portray in their music. And it was very interesting to me to read that panic was not built around the pandemic, that it was a real story, an honest story about a personal journey through anxiety. And then it just so happened to be that the world went through this terrible time and now it's so applicable on such a giant, massive scale. So I thought that was really interesting that I really hadn't realized that it was more so about a personal coming through anxiety type of moment than it was about the pandemic.

SPEAKER_03: 40:49

When I was doing my research, I read that he had a breakdown and during that time, panic attacks were triggered for him. With your experience, What are some ways that musicians can deal with panic attacks?

SPEAKER_04: 41:03

One of the things that you alluded to is really important about reframing where this comes from. That it's not because you yourself are making this up, right? That it is something in your body. We like patterns. Our human body, our human brain likes patterns. So when there's fear that's introduced, you immediately avoid what you are fearful of. And so that avoidance becomes habitual. So your brain is misfiring at everything that it perceives as a threat. And it could be that something is completely miswired, that this is not threatening. The food is not threatening. The performance is not threatening. Leaving home is not threatening. But your body responds to it as though it is. So I guess the three things that I would say would be to reframe your ideas about where this comes from. and to get some knowledge about how it may have occurred for you. But also, getting support in that is important. Talk about it. Find someone that you trust. Find someone that you can reach out to that's reliable and that you count as trustworthy and reasonable, that you can be honest with them about this. Be honest with self is great. Be honest with other people is also a challenge, but it's so beneficial to have support. And then the third thing that I would consider obviously is clinical treatment. So a lot of things for people now are all accessible with telehealth. You can talk to a therapist and you can keep in touch just as easily as we do on Zoom meetings. I know our particular practice uses basically FaceTime for physicians. It's doxy.me, just a website, but it's HIPAA compliant. And the other part of clinical treatment might be medication. I don't usually recommend just medication. Pills are kind of like misinterpreted as the magic wand that they're going to fix everything. That's not how it goes. But medication with therapy can be very effective. The reason is because medication can bring you down to a baseline that is more tolerable and allows you to think through it. Because if you can imagine, for example, some people who have health anxiety, may be triggered by whatever food exists. Dinner could be a trigger. And if that person perceives that food as life-threatening right there in the moment, your trigger is a reaction. It's not something that you think about. Your body responds, which is why it's very difficult to control and very difficult to think through. What medication can do is make that reaction lesser. and bring you closer to a baseline so that you can access your reasoning ability to remember what you went through in therapy. Okay, this is an opportunity for me to reframe. Let's challenge what's happening in my body. Let me talk to my body and tell it that it's okay to calm down. I'm going to focus on my breathing, my mindfulness, right? All of a sudden, you have access to all these things, these tools that you know about. If you're afraid to immediately and you're on 10, all that reasoning goes out the window because you're scared.

SPEAKER_03: 44:23

I know there are breathing techniques or different things you can learn through therapy, like being more aware of what's triggering you. I think Matt even mentioned using Xanax, which can sometimes act quickly to calm you down. But the flip side is that it does have an addictive property. And if you start to rely on that too often, then it could be a problem. But Matt also alluded to this breakdown triggered by being on tour and having one of his singers suddenly quit the band. And there was no backup. He didn't know what to do. And I think back on some musicians that I've worked with, and oftentimes when things change like that suddenly, members leave for whatever reasons, it's a huge letdown. It's an upheaval. What are your thoughts on how to deal with these changes that can happen within bands?

SPEAKER_04: 45:21

Sure. Just situational things, right? If they're not really tied to something that is uniquely you, maybe then it would be less threatening. But if whatever is changed and it's changed drastically and you identify that as being part of who you are, then it shakes you to your core. And when I look at And I look at Matt's lyricism and I look at what his music means to him and the things that I've heard in interviews. It's not just that it changed drastically. It's that it changed drastically and it meant so much to him that it was a part of who he was and his identity. So I feel like when stuff like that changes, first of all, maybe just expect that it's going to be hard and that it should be. When anything shakes you to the core, it's not going to be easy like that. So you can't just expect yourself to shut it off and move on. You might need some time to process this. You might need to find a physical outlet. If you've got a punching bag, that might be the time, right? And then try and give yourself space to simply be blindly confident in who you are and why you got there in the first place. I will figure this out. It will get taken care of because I trust in my own work ethic. I trust in my own values and I trust in my ability to ask questions of myself, ask questions of others. So to sort of fortify yourself and be ready for potentially life-changing moments, do internal work. Take self-inventory. Make sure that you can stand on your own two feet no matter what situational thing goes wrong.

SPEAKER_03: 47:11

The other thing with being in a band, there are things that you can control in your own life, but it's hard to control other people in your band and what circumstances they're going through. And if you look at so many different bands, a lot of them have had to go through member changes. Some people end up going solo or for whatever reasons, changes happen. And to be proactive in having that thought in your head in case something happens, what are we going to do? I think it's really important and to give yourself time because I know this is really hard to think of, but you know, when they say one door closes and the new one opens and sometimes that new door might even be better for you in the long run. It's hard to know that while you're in it because you're so frustrated or so down and Yeah, because when

SPEAKER_04: 48:07

I say have patience with yourself, it's okay to grieve the path that you thought was going to be your path. And now that door is closed because those people aren't going to be the same or the situation has changed drastically. Allow yourself to grieve that that's not going to be how it goes for you. And you thought it would be. And you've banked on this and you've worked toward this. You put blood, sweat, and tears into that path. And the fact that the rug gets ripped out from under you for one reason or another is devastating. And so you're going to need time to process that devastation. And just to clarify, too, I want to make sure I'm not suggesting that we visualize all of the ways that this could be better or all of the ways that, well, if it goes wrong, then I will. Because that's also an anxiety loop. I feel like people try oftentimes to be prepared for every and all situations. Don't do that to yourself. There are endless ways for this to go right and wrong. But what I mean to say is just know that whatever happens, if and when it occurs, that you are strong and capable and let that be enough.

SPEAKER_03: 49:22

Well, you know, it's funny you said the words, let that be enough. One thing that stuck out to me when we're talking about how Matt started getting choked up And I asked him about what he thought of when he was in an anxious moment. And one thing he said was that I'm not enough. And that's a thought that goes through a lot of people's minds, different times in their life. What kind of advice would you give to somebody if they have this constant feeling of not being enough?

SPEAKER_04: 49:51

There are probably several reasons. Many of them might be historical that you must have learned to doubt yourself. Somewhere along the line that you got that idea. Maybe identifying that moment is important. Maybe it doesn't have any importance on your healing. But simply knowing that it's there and having affirmations, whether it's just something that you remind yourself, which I think people find counterintuitive, but it's true. What we say about ourselves matters so, so much. So if you can tell yourself, All of the ways that you feel like you have done your best and you can remind yourself of moments when you were validated. I am enough because I got married. I had kids. I've got my career is fairly successful and I've gone through these problems, but I figured out how to do that then and move through it. So I'm sure this next problem I could get through too. But you might need to have an intentional effort in affirming to yourself that I can do this. I might be scared that I can't. And sometimes maybe that fear is overwhelming that you're not enough, that you are somehow insufficient as a person. And that maybe that's the reason why this bad thing happened. But if you can take a step outside of yourself and write down those affirmations and remember what is really going on here, You're allowing the real world to supersede your fear. And I think that's very healing because you can reason with yourself in that moment. But you know what? I know my anxiety is just toying with me at this moment because there are so much evidence I have that lets me know that I am doing a good job. So I need to challenge that voice in my head and replace it with a different voice in my head for my own narrative. be it neutral or positive. Just stay away from all the negative stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 52:00

Right. And I think life is just a lot of figuring things out because most of the things that we go through, obstacles and challenges, we don't have any experience with. And whether we get advice from other people or whether we have to improvise and figure it out, it becomes this exercise that Hopefully, the more we do, the better attitude we have about it when we come across these challenges. One thing that Matt mentioned is that he grew up in a household where competition was really highly regarded. He had this whole idea of winning and losing that was kind of tied to a self-image. What are some of the negative consequences that can happen with this kind of thinking?

SPEAKER_04: 52:49

that your value is built on your achievement and that achievement is somehow gauged by someone else's opinion. Someone else's got the score sheet and you're trying to hit someone else's benchmarks and that every time you hit that benchmark, that's when you know you're valuable, but only then. So now you've got a couple of things working against you. First, that someone else, gets to define whether or not you've achieved what you were working toward. And second, that there's this constant competition and that the only way that you can feel like you are valuable is by winning. And that's not going to teach resilience. I think it teaches brutality, that you are supposed to always be above everyone else. And that is the only way that you can have value. If everyone is beneath you, if you're number one all the time, then everybody else is two and below. But also that there is constant competition everywhere. You begin to perceive everything and everyone as competition. So there's no relaxing. And every new situation or new person is a next challenge. And that's just exhausting. That's exhausting. I don't think anyone can live with their value being tied to constant performance.

SPEAKER_03: 54:20

Well, I think the other thing he mentioned was that once he had a victory, he would need another victory and it keeps going and going, let's say, in order for someone to feel good about themselves. And I could see as you were talking, it sounds like everything becomes a threat if everything becomes a competition. And then also all those really wonderful qualities that we love in people like friendship and compassion and a giving nature, all of those things. are almost discounted when you only look at competition, right? All those human qualities that we all love about people.

SPEAKER_04: 54:57

Yeah, you become more of a performance robot than you become a well-rounded, comfortable in your own skin human. You're never taught those things. A lot of people have this sort of story where they feel like, I got to a place where I needed to have a certain skill set And I didn't have it. So it made me feel like less of a person or that I was behind in some way. And being a person that's always so focused on performance, I was in denial. I got really angry about it. Almost like I felt like I turned my insecurities inward and beat myself up about it because I should have done this. I should have known how to be compassionate or kind or patient right now that I'm a parent or now that I am working alongside other people in my career, whatever the situation is. But when you can validate for them or at least normalize that, you know, you were never taught that. That was never important to you. That was not even written in where you came from. So how could you have learned? And then they go, I guess I couldn't have. Right, but you have the opportunity to now. And as you stated, and I love that, comment that you made about, we're all just figuring it out, then you can normalize that for them too. Don't worry about it. There's a lot of people that don't have certain skill sets and it's fine for you to learn it now.

SPEAKER_03: 56:28

One thing that Matt talked about was how alcohol was part of his story. It came in and out of his life and sometimes really affected his relationships, affected working with his band. We've had so many musicians come on and talk about battles with substance abuse. What can you say about addiction to kind of help steer others away from using substances as a fix? Because it's kind of an easy thing to

SPEAKER_04: 56:57

fall into, right? So easy. And that was going to be my comment, too, was that it is the biggest, most convincing liar you will ever know. It's so easy to fall into because it numbs. That pain or that sadness, that suffering, that anger, it just dulls whatever you don't want to feel, which can be great in the moment. And I'm so confident that it only lasts a moment. Not even from my own personal experience with it, but all of the loved ones that I know have told me that same story about using anything as a band-aid. I don't care if it's gambling or if it's drugs or if it's alcohol or if it's relationships. People fall into bed with each other all the time. You are trying to avoid something and it's not going anywhere. So the more that you use in order to avoid it, you are stuck. You are prolonging dealing with that thing that's going to allow you to move on. And I think when you talk about People not really being able to feel like they have value in their own lives or they're not really focused on being a well-rounded person that is confident in what they're learning or at least able to challenge themselves when they need to learn something else. It's because maybe those stuck moments. People that use substances, it just really brings you down, really brings you down. You're not able to do the things that you want, interact with people the way that you'd like to. You're no longer in control. And that's the total opposite of what it's going to tell you that it's going to do.

SPEAKER_03: 58:56

Right. And you're probably not able to process the emotions that you really need to process. What are some things that musicians can do to keep mental health a priority while they're on tour?

SPEAKER_04: 59:09

Small things. Noticing when you're having a moment and you need to take some time for you is probably of utmost importance. I don't really care what the rules are or what society says or what tour life is expecting of you. Well, you're not going to be able to take a lot of breaks and you're not going to be able to get a lot of sleep and you're not going to be... You need to sleep. You need to eat. Basic human needs are still priority, right? No matter what anybody says, that's going to challenge you for that because you're a brand and many people are focused on your brand continuing to operate at a thousand percent every moment of every day, because then you are more profitable and more marketable. They are not worried. I say they, because it could be any one of several brands. bajillion people in that whole process. They're not worried about you the way that you need to worry about you. And the people close to you should be able to validate that for you and encourage you to worry about you the way you need to, period. Whether you need another nap or you need to take a walk or you need to, right? It was weird for me when I was first in the van with Six or seven people, eight maybe, in a 15-passenger van for months at a time. You have to be patient. And when you cannot be patient, you need to verbalize. Take a moment. Because I really think it's not a lot. You're not asking a lot. You're asking to be human. And everybody needs to be able to be human.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:58

A big thank you to our musical guest, Matt Brandeberry of From Ashes to New. and our mental health expert, Eva Marie, a.k.a. Amanda Lyberg, of Eva Under Fire. For more information on From Ashes to New, their tour, their album, Panic, and the Quarantine Chronicles EPs, visit FromAshesToNew.com and be sure to follow them on their socials, at From Ashes to New. For more information on Amanda Lyberg, a.k.a. Eva Marie of Eva Under Fire, their tour, and upcoming debut album, Love, Drugs, and Misery, visit EvaUnderFire.com. Follow them on their socials at EvaUnderFire and stay tuned for a clip of their single, Unstoppable. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental health that

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:56

you need.

UNKNOWN: 1:01:57

Unstoppable

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:08

Check Your Head Podcast.com. Check Your Head podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.