Amos Lee: Agoraphobia & Panic Attack Recovery w/Dr. Melissa Boudin (PsyD, Choosing Therapy)

Mari Fong interviews singer-songwriter Amos Lee and Dr. Melissa Boudin, psychologist and Clinical Director of Choosing Therapy. Amos Lee spent his life coping with anxiety and panic attacks which led him to be agoraphobic at the tender age of 10 years-old.  Lee shares his panic attack recovery tools, and also how to best support someone with mood disorders.  We'll also play a clip of his single, "Worry No More" from his 6th album, 'Dreamland.'

Next, Dr. Melissa Boudin, psychologist and Clinical Director of Choosing Therapy explains the breathing techniques and other skills that can be learned to effectively calm panic attacks.  Dr. Boudin also shares how online therapy or telehealth is effective and convenient whether you're on tour or at home.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and today I have a question for you. Have you ever experienced a panic attack? Well, our featured musician today has spent his life coping with panic attacks and even became agoraphobic, unable to leave his house at the tender age of 10. Yet this artist has learned to cope and overcome his anxiety to tour with the likes of Norah Jones, Van Morrison, Adele, and even the boss, Bruce Springsteen. Today we have the great Amos Lee, who will share his panic attack tools for recovery, and who recently dropped his sixth album called Dreamland. We'll also play a clip of his single, Worry No More, at the end of our episode. Next, we have clinical psychologist Dr. Melissa Boudin, who will explain the breathing exercises and other skills taught in therapy that are most effective to calm panic attacks. Dr. Boudin will also share how telehealth or online therapy using your computer or phone screen can be especially helpful and effective while on tour or in the comfort of your home. But first, let's hear Amos Lee share his story.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26

So, Worry No More, the vulnerable space in that song was my experience with agoraphobia, which when I was 10, I had. And it was pretty young to be agoraphobic. And I know that the definition of agoraphobia has changed over the years. I think in the beginning, it was more where like you don't leave the house and you're peeking out the windows. And I think agoraphobia now is more defined as an extreme level of avoidant behavior. It's not just about not leaving the house. My version was not leaving the house. So since then, I've worked really hard to get past that level of anxiety in myself. It takes a lot of work, but music has afforded me the bridge to get past all of that stuff. It helps connect me to people. It helps connect me to myself. And so the message of the song is like, there's an open door. It's there for you if you want it. No one's going to push you out. No one's going to say, get out. No one's going to tell you that it's too scary to leave but it's just there when you need it and sometimes when you're experiencing extreme anxiety i honestly just need someone to see you and to hear you and to be there and listen and be soft with you because so many folks who struggle with anxiety are hard on themselves and their internal language is so intense at times that it's just like hey you know it's cool it's there for you when you need it

SPEAKER_03: 3:00

well you know i'm really was curious about that time in your life because you mentioned trauma during that time. And I'm wondering, did that lead to the agoraphobia and what was going on during that time?

SPEAKER_00: 3:12

There was a lot of transitions for me at that time. We moved a bunch. We had new people in our lives, which I would prefer not specify, but I had some physical trauma that was going on with me at the time that was just too much. And I didn't know... At that time, really how to process it. So I created this intense understanding of the world that would protect me. So in other words, I created a monster outside of myself so I didn't have to go and experience any more trauma.

SPEAKER_03: 3:53

So it was a way of protection for you. I think

SPEAKER_00: 3:56

it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 3:57

You know, being agoraphobic at that age would be difficult because you got to go to school. I mean, how did you get to a point where you were able to get out of the house?

SPEAKER_00: 4:10

So fortunately or unfortunately, my main time of my agoraphobia as a child was during the summer. And when school came back around, I was better. I wasn't completely reacclimated, but I was more... open to going out and doing stuff. And that was cool. I wasn't a super troubled kid. So I just want to make that clear. Like, I was a pretty happy kid. We all have our struggles. We all have our demons. But some of us just are born with these kind of sensitivities. And my depression, I mean, it was my whole life. I'm pretty sure I was born with a level of that and with anxiety. And so I was a pretty happy kid overall. But when I experienced some of the traumas, when I was like, nope, not going out for a little while. I'm going to sit right here and not freak out. But I got better. Then I started experiencing, as I got older, more of the classic anxiety. depression symptoms. Being in the 90s, we didn't really think of mental health the same way we think of it now. I didn't tell anybody about it. And when your parents are busy and when you don't really have any siblings, you can hide a lot. And I've listened to a lot of podcasts about kids and teenagers who have gone through traumas and a lot of how it's hidden, how it stays hidden. So I really applaud people for coming out and talking about it. especially young people who make themselves vulnerable, just expressing it is a huge thing. And honestly, just seeing it is a huge thing.

SPEAKER_03: 5:58

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, as a child, there's so many things that we are not aware of. And if there is family history of depression or anxiety, there are different things that could trigger it. And we're never prepared for that. And I know you had mentioned something about how anxiety and depression is part of your family history.

SPEAKER_00: 6:20

Just getting to the root of it is like so important. And I'm just going to just be completely open with you. Like I was loved as a child. Like I wasn't cast aside and I had good parenting and lots of love. But sometimes anxiety and depression are just part of how some people live. Like, that's just how it works. I can just tell you about my own experience. And with anxiety, especially, when I just allow myself to embrace the fact that I've had this my whole life and I might have it to some degree for the rest of it, it doesn't freak me out. It's just like, this is going to come and go. You're going to feel bad sometimes. You're going to feel better sometimes. Just understand that it's not going to destroy you. And you don't have to let it destroy you. You can live a healthy life. You can be happy and well-adjusted and be loved and love other people. But you also have to have the understanding that at times this is going to come back and it's going to flare up and you're going to have to find ways to treat yourself even better during those times.

SPEAKER_03: 7:29

Yeah, it's a lot of trial and error. And one thing that I always say about mental health is to play detective because that's what I had to do with mine. I have depression and anxiety, and like you said, it flares up at times. But to try to figure out what's going on with me physically, what's going on with me mentally, and also what is triggering me. You also talked about your college years where things got rough with panic attacks. Can you talk about that and what was going on during that time?

SPEAKER_00: 8:02

Yeah, so that was like a whole different era of my good times with my anxiety. Sometimes we self-medicate, right? And it's understandable, especially when you're younger. I mean, I have friends and some family members, frankly, who have been self-medicating for years, who are undiagnosed whatever. And some folks need more. Some folks need less. At that time, it was a big adjustment period. Something that I've definitely come to terms with in myself is that when I'm in transitional periods, college, moving, whatever, my anxiety is going to flare up. It just is. And things can get to be out of control. And my college experience was a lot of changes. I moved to South Carolina. I moved away from all of my support system. I stopped playing basketball. I was smoking a ton of weed. I was drinking probably 700 Mountain Dews a day. It was just like I was just getting high and drinking Mountain Dew. Anyone would probably get a panic attack from that. But it was interesting because when my panic attack started, first of all, I had no idea what it was. I was just like, what's happening with me? This is out there. And they were kind of nonstop. for the better part of a year like i would have multiple panic attacks a day they talk about anticipatory anxiety a lot when it comes to panic attacks oh i feel that symptom like oh it's coming again it's coming again and you freeze and it takes you over sometimes i think of it like a wave like if you're in the ocean and you're staring at a wave and you tense up it just knocks you over you have no sense of balance Whereas if you can just stand there and be like, all right, cool, the wave's going to pass through me and I'll be fine. That's a way to really get in touch with that thing. Like, I don't think the physical symptoms always change. I mean, they get better as you get older, the more you deal with it. But I think there was something else going on. Like I was dissociative a bit also. And a panic attacks were part of that. I don't know how I got through it. And the wild thing about that is, I was in absolute mental agony during this time. Like truly, it was truly agony. The only time in my life I ever got straight A's.

SPEAKER_03: 10:29

What?

SPEAKER_00: 10:31

Yeah. That is

SPEAKER_03: 10:33

really wild.

SPEAKER_00: 10:35

It was wild. Yeah. One thing that when things are very intense for me, I can really focus because I need to get away from the feelings like music. really has been a savior for me in a lot of ways. Because when I have those feelings now, I can go to a song and a guitar or someone else's song and just get lost in it. And that's been a real beautiful escape for me. It's not even just an escape. It's like a pathway. It's a passage.

SPEAKER_03: 11:11

Well, it's so funny because when we talk about music, when you play music, we don't necessarily think about the healing properties of it. We just know that we love it. We enjoy it. It distracts us from everyday worries. When we're in it, we're almost like this cloud of protection and you can escape in so many different ways and you can express in so many different ways. And then the people that receive that also feel like a lightened load with music. Can you describe, for people like myself who've never had one, how it feels physically and mentally to have a panic attack?

SPEAKER_00: 11:49

Like the symptoms of anxiety and panic are different for everybody. We all sort of have our own flavor profile to say so much. So really what happens is I look in the mirror and be like, I don't know who that is. I don't get it. And I'll like see my mom and I'll be like, who is, I don't get it. So what happens is from what I understand physiologically, like you're flooded with adrenaline. So your body is in this, fight or flight hyper state, like when you would be getting chased by some kind of big cat or some predator, we have these mechanisms in our body that activate. And when that happens too much, I just know for myself that part of you just has to shut down because there's too much happening. And I don't know what causes that. I think it's a protection thing. I don't know, have you ever been really high And you look at your hand and you're like, dude, what? Is this my hand? It's so weird. You can kind of dissociate a little bit when you're super stoned or tripping. And it's sort of the same way with a panic attack where you're just like, I don't get it. I'm in a fog. Things are feeling really weird and I'm spaced out and I can reach out for things, but I can't touch them. They just don't seem quite real to me. That's how my whole sophomore year of college was, that exact feeling. And you calm down and your system calms, and then you can be like, okay, cool, I'm good. But then once the adrenaline recedes, it's sort of like when you run a race or when you've been through an exercise, you just get exhausted. I feel crap now because my body gets so keyed up. And it's really hard to explain this. And one thing... If your partner is a person who suffers from panic or anxiety, it's really hard to explain to your romantic partner what's happening to you. Because I've been through this and I have friends who go through this where they're like, I just don't get it. Like she just freaks out and she can't calm down. It's like, just be with her. She will calm down. This is temporary and she's going to be okay. But instead of antagonizing her and trying to fix her or fix him, Just be there. Just be present and be supportive. And if you need to be assertive, be assertive. I'm not saying let someone run all over you if they're having an anxiety attack. So it's complicated because it is so difficult to explain to someone who doesn't have it. It's so personal and at the same time so abstract.

SPEAKER_03: 14:40

Yeah. I mean, I know some people have said that it's hard for them to catch their breath. They feel like they're almost drowning. And this feeling of dying, like they're going to die or something. But I'm wondering, what are the thoughts that are going through your head? Like the fears that are going through your head?

SPEAKER_00: 14:59

Well, there's an abundance of options here. There's a lot of them. It depends on the situation or the time. The classic panic attack stuff, or you're going to lose your mind. You're going to die. You're going to hurt yourself. You're going to hurt somebody else. These are classic panic attack things. A lot of people will get a panic attack when they're driving or when they're going into a social situation. I've had so many panic attacks going into a social situation where I just have to calm myself down and self-talk and be like, things are going to be cool. It's control and being out of control and It's challenging. Look, I won't sit here and tell you that it's not challenging for your friends and for your parents and for your partners to understand you. You hit on something that I think is really relevant, which is it's not just about the people talking about their own mental health issues. It's about your partnerships that surround your mental health issues as well. And the way that you interact with your mental health and the people around you and the way that your people interact with you, being that you may have some challenging things that get between things like relationships, work relationships. People who have anxiety and depression tend to be self-sabotaging a lot of the times. So it's a really complicated and big thing. And I love talking about it and I love supporting my friends because like a lot of my friends who do have anxiety and depression stuff call me because they know like I get it and I'm here and I don't judge you. And I understand that the struggle is very real.

SPEAKER_03: 16:48

Well, you know, as you spoke, it reminds me of your song Hold You because I felt the lyrics were like, let's say somebody is feeling down. And sometimes when you're down, you don't want to have help or you say, I'm okay. But in response, it's like, I'm here for you. I'm here to support you. You know, I love you. And when you're in that space, how is it that, you know, your support system, how can they best help you during those times?

SPEAKER_00: 17:21

You know, it's just being present, being thoughtful and having compassion and empathy. for yourself and for the people around you. A lot of times when I'm really having a hard time, I just go into another place. Like I'll go into another room or I'll hold off for a day or two and just chill depending on how intense it gets. But for the most part, let's just say you have your inner child, right? Let's just hypothetically. And if you do inner child work, you know what this is about. And I kind of recommend it. If you can stomach doing it, you can dog yourself into it. It's pretty interesting to go back and visualize what your little self might be feeling and how you could support that person. And sometimes when I have a friend in need or when I feel in need, there are just very simple things. You know, we have basic human needs, right? We have sleep, we have food, we have... connection we have social needs and sometimes we just need to be held sometimes we just need to be loved and it's just the ultimate support like when you're a child you cry why is he crying he's eaten his diapers clean he slept fine i need to be held i'm crying i need to be touched like all those studies about touch deprivation and physical deprivation that happened to those children and how negatively affected them. It's like we, in our society, especially in the last two years, we've overlooked some of that stuff in ourselves. So there's a basic human connection that is reassuring to us. And so that's part of it. It varies. Sometimes I need to be left alone. Sometimes I just want to vent. I'm not so sure I have a handbook on how to help me, but I have a little manual that I check every time I have a friend who might be having a hard time. Oh

SPEAKER_03: 19:28

my gosh, you have a manual? That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 19:31

What is some of the check marks? It's inserted in my brain. It's in my brain. I have to get it out. Hold on, let me see if I can get the PDF. I think

SPEAKER_03: 19:37

you can.

SPEAKER_00: 19:37

Yeah, it's really just like, don't overreact to their overreaction. Because a lot of times with anxiety... they're just feeling overwhelmed. Don't overreact to their overreaction. Try not to take it personally. If they're feeling anxious and they're just going off the rails a little bit, like try to be objective, but not cold. That's a hard thing is how to be objective when you're with someone who you love or you care for, and they're having a hard time and you can be objective, but not aloof. I think being aloof is not good, but I think being supportive and objective is and present at the same time. It's not the secret sauce, but it's pretty close. I think it's really helpful for people. And depression is the same. Sometimes people want to yank it out of you. They want to say, why aren't you smiling? What's wrong with you? And you're like, can we just chill and talk? Because that would help.

SPEAKER_03: 20:37

Yeah, because sometimes there may not be a main reason for that. It could be your body chemistry or Different little triggers and it's hard to understand, but when you're in it, it feels really bad. It feels terrible. But one thing you've talked about is perseverance and persistence, which is what I talk a lot about with mood disorders because it takes a lot of that sometimes to find your solutions. Let's say when you're in a depression, what is it that you do to kind of survive those times or even try to help yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 21:13

Music. awareness, talking about it. Trying to understand what you're putting in your brain is important too. Like, let's just say you're at a point where you can spot your depression and you can acknowledge it and be proactive in self-healing. That's a pretty huge thing because I also think there's part of the anxiety and depression that wants someone else to fix it for us. And I know early in my anxiety days, there are safe people that you go to who you go, I need you to fix this. Like I can't do it, only you can do it. And the truth is that they can't. That the person who really holds the keys is you. And so if you have to find some way to communicate with yourself about your self-healing, the real kingdom is like, this is in me. This is not coming from them. They're not creating this problem for me. It's me. And without being self harmful and saying, oh, I'm a piece of shit. Like I keep doing this to myself. I'm like, I hate me. The balance there is it's fine. It's like archery. You have to shoot a bow, like just the right amount of tension and the right amount of letting go is just the right place to acknowledge that in yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 22:36

Well, you know, one thing I read about your song, Seeing Ghosts, is it says it reflects on anxiety that can often warp our perceptions. And I totally believe that, right? Because you get into a fear that even logically you might know it's weird to be fearful of this, but on the other hand, you're feeling this fear and it's real. Can you think of some examples of anxious thoughts that warped your perception on something?

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

I mean, everything, all of them, probably 97% of all the thoughts I've ever had are anxious, warped thoughts. I mean, that's just the truth in the song. It's kind of particular to what I'm saying. Like in the song, it's a bit more of a relationship and it really stems from like, there is this fear of, and I also think this relates to artists and writers or painters. Like you're completely, engrossed in your work like you're disappearing into your work and there are times where you're living your life and you're in this fog of existence be it in your art or be it in a relationship and you're just not sure where you are anymore you feel very uncertain of your state and what your relationship to the things around you are and the big fear of the narrator in that song it's not even a fear it's There's a deep acceptance in that song. This person in that song, which is sort of me, is existing clearly in this world but doesn't quite understand what's happening in the periphery and is afraid that if this world of fog, this is getting really esoteric, but if this world of fog is real or if he goes into it, does he ever reappear again? How do you get in and out of these states and For me, it's a lot about love. That song is a love song, believe it or not, strangely. It's about seeing someone who you love who doesn't recognize you or see you anymore. And that's a bad feeling. It's just a bad feeling to be like, my heart is still with you, but I don't even exist to you anymore. I'm nothing. So yeah, it's a complicated song, but it is a love song.

SPEAKER_03: 25:03

Well, you know, you said one thing that I think is so important, and that's to see and hear people. And I was reading somewhere where they said to be seen and heard is one of the most important things about relationships, about connections. And if you're not, it's really painful. I noticed that a lot of the things that you say are things that you've learned throughout your life to deal with anxiety and depression. But there are other ways, you know, some people go to therapy or they might have experience with a support group or they may even try medication that can work for them. Have you used any of those other types of ways to help with your mood conditions?

SPEAKER_00: 25:45

I've been in therapy a bunch of times. I've never really gone the medication route. I'm not against it. I think for some people, it's very helpful. Like I have people in my life who I love dearly, whose lives are really much better because of meds. And I have people who have been on meds who have just decided it's not right for them and that they didn't feel like that was the healing path they wanted to be on. The one place where I would land with this is if you've tried exercise and diet and you've really made a lot of changes in your life and you're not feeling like you're getting any better. maybe consider a short term on medication or if you need it longer term. The place that I am most sensitive to for other people is that despondency where they feel completely like nothing is ever going to help. I'm never getting better. This is it. My life, like everything is just a disaster because I feel that way sometimes. I think we all do, but you shouldn't feel that way. all the time every day you know if it ebbs and flows cool but i can experience pleasure and i can experience joy and i can experience gratefulness and gratitude there have been times in my life where i could not and that's when i really have sought out talk therapy and i've made major changes to what i'm putting in my body and what i'm doing exercise wise and What kind of TV I'm watching? Because I tend to like really dark stuff. The darker, the more intense, the more I like it. But there's a point where my brain's like, all right, dude, this is a bit much. We need to stop and chill and watch some more Arrested Development and chill out. So I think a big part of this is being self-aware and finding a place where you can recognize your symptoms and recognize how bad they might be, but I haven't gone the meds route, but I've done tons of therapy and talk therapy and CBT and EDMR. And I actually really think that for some very specific trauma-related stuff, that psychedelic therapy is extremely helpful and should be thought about seriously.

SPEAKER_03: 28:04

Well, you know, we had Jesse Leach of Kill Switch Engage come on and talk about microdosing with mushrooms. And I've also had... Other people talk about EMDR. What has really worked for you in those, I guess, alternate therapies?

SPEAKER_00: 28:23

I haven't had a single experience where I was like, revelation! Oh my god! Other than being consistently motivated to try to heal myself. Therapy has been really helpful. Honestly, it's like playing music is the biggest thing for me. Being able to create and play music is the greatest medicine for me. And it's been the greatest medicine for me. Music for me is really the place that I go to that's the most healing.

SPEAKER_03: 28:58

Well, that's wonderful that you're able to have a career with this and at the same time just feel so good. I mean, is there anything else that you want to say about mental health or about your music?

SPEAKER_00: 29:10

Well, one thing that really helped me in the beginning was just knowing that I wasn't the only one. It wasn't only me who had anxiety and depression. It wasn't only me who was having panic attacks. It wasn't only me who felt these terrible ways that felt completely out of control. So it's important. I would always just say, you're not alone. It's really important for someone in your life, family, friend, loved one, partner, child. it's important for them to know that they're not alone. Even if you can't share it with them, and even if you can't necessarily fix it, they're not alone. And that's an important message because our ultimate existential fear is aloneness. So I would share that as my one more thing.

SPEAKER_03: 29:58

That sounds like, what is it called? Those commercials with

SPEAKER_00: 30:01

the star? Exactly. The more you know. The

SPEAKER_03: 30:04

more you know. Well, thank you so much, Amos Lee. Dreamland is now available, and make sure to go and catch Amos Lee on tour.

SPEAKER_00: 30:14

Please come out. I will give you the good vibes, I promise. I will be there for you and all of your mental health needs on stage.

SPEAKER_03: 30:27

Next, clinical psychologist Dr. Melissa Boudin will educate us on panic attacks and the methods you can learn to calm them. Dr. Boudin is also the clinical director of ChoosingTherapy.com and will explain how online therapy can be an effective alternative to in-person office visits. I'm also excited to announce a benefit show to raise funds for mental health. On April 24th at the Hard Rock Cafe in Hollywood, the LA Rock Collective will host the Rock for Life show, an all-ages show featuring some of the best local bands in Los Angeles. The show will benefit the Mental Health Fund for Sweet Relief and the Check Your Head podcast, and for$20 pre-sale tickets, visit checkyourheadpodcast.com or rockcollective.net. Now let's hear our mental health expert, Dr. Melissa Boudin, share her knowledge and advice on panic attacks. You know, after listening to Amos Lee's interview, was there anything that stood out to you about his mental health journey? First, it's very

SPEAKER_02: 31:30

inspiring, but what stood out to me the most was his self-awareness and his openness in his story and also just his encouragement of others through his journey. And towards the end, and he talked about the most important thing for people to know is that they're not alone and that they hold the key to their own healing. And I love that he encourages others to be proactive in their healing and to not expect or want others to fix it for them. As a psychologist, that's really important to the work that I do because therapists are there to support and to be your sounding board and to help you in learning skills that we can't learn them for you when we can't do them for you. So when people have that particular perspective, they almost always have good outcomes, not just in therapy, but in their mental health journey.

SPEAKER_03: 32:21

The thing is, is that when you're in a mood disorder, it's difficult. to reach your hand out and ask for help and really take the steps to get help because you're exhausted and you're scared. But just the importance of taking that first step in believing that there's therapy that can help. We've had quite a few musicians on the podcast talk about panic attacks. Can you first explain what a panic attack is?

SPEAKER_02: 32:50

Panic attacks are... These relatively short periods of really overwhelming fear or anxiety. And I say relatively short because while they last typically around 10 minutes, that 10 minutes can feel like a really long time to the person who is experiencing it. And the intensity of a panic attack goes well beyond normal anxiety. And it can include a number of physical symptoms like your heart pounding, sweating, trembling, shaking. shortness of breath, chest pain, all of these things. It can even include feeling detached from yourself. You can see why during panic attacks, especially during first panic attacks, they often fear that they're having a heart attack or they can't breathe or they're dying or losing control. So it can be scary. There are bodies alarm system or fight or flight system going haywire. And we all have this built-in fight or flight system. powered by adrenaline. It's meant to do these things very purposefully. Increase your heart rate, your breathing, get blood flowing to your body in response to danger. It's key to our survival. And ordinarily, it works really well. And some people, though, the response is either totally out of proportion to whatever stress is going on, or it can even come on without stress at all, causing a panic attack.

SPEAKER_03: 34:15

Right. Just kind of like out of the blue, seemingly out of the blue. Yes,

SPEAKER_02: 34:19

absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 34:21

Amos was talking about how depression and anxiety is a family history thing for him. Throughout his life, he's figured out different ways to kind of soothe himself. He did talk about a time when he started getting panic attacks in college. He mentioned drinking tons of Mountain Dew, doing tons of pot, not exercising. Can you tell us some of the common triggers that can preclude panic

SPEAKER_02: 34:48

attacks? First, caffeine is certainly one. It's a stimulant and it has the same effects on your body that a frightening or threatening event would. So very much can stimulate that fight or flight response. And the same with both caffeine and cannabis have recognized disorders from the American Psychiatric Association that are related to anxiety. There's caffeine-induced anxiety and cannabis-induced anxiety. So those are both certainly triggers. Stressful situations as well, you know, a fight with a spouse or work stress can contribute to them. Other things you ingest can contribute to them as well. Some over-the-counter medications, prescription medications, weight loss drugs, alcohol. There's several things outside of the typical stressful situations as well.

SPEAKER_03: 35:40

And he also mentioned social situations, like social anxiety, where people can get really nervous, you know, with a crowd of people or whatever the situation is.

SPEAKER_02: 35:50

100%. It can be something that you and I might take for granted. Going to the grocery store, taking even your dog for a walk and being fearful you might run into somebody. These super simple things can be really challenging and anxiety provoking for people and they end up then avoiding them.

SPEAKER_03: 36:07

Sometimes I think when people think of coffee or caffeine or Mountain Dew, they think of something that's going to give them energy opposed to something that might cause them anxiety and get them jittery. And I'm just going to speak from my own experience because I take supplements. I take a B-complex, and I find that not only does the B-complex give me energy, but it also seems to calm me at the same time. It keeps me very level mentally. It

SPEAKER_02: 36:39

really just depends on your body chemistry as well. For example, individuals with ADHD, they need a stimulant in order to be calm and level. So it depends on body chemistry and then also depends on the supplement and the way that your body metabolizes it. But there are certain things and certain people who can have that jolt of energy and remain calm and there are others and particularly in combination with other situations or other stressors that that same B complex or that same regular cup of coffee mixed with something else going on in their life can then cause panic or anxiety.

SPEAKER_03: 37:16

Okay. And as a psychologist, somebody is experiencing a panic attack. What are some methods that people can use that they can also learn in therapy to soothe that panic attack while it's happening?

SPEAKER_02: 37:29

The most classic techniques are cognitive behavioral techniques, and they're focused around either retraining your breathing, grounding your body or your mind, or having some type of mindfulness. So The three that I think are the most popular are retraining your breathing. When people have panic attacks, they almost always show some signs of hyperventilating or over-breathing. And when this happens, your brain gets less oxygen and then that can lead to dizziness and confusion and the other symptoms that we see with panic attacks, as well as your body gets less oxygen, then you get numb or tingly. It's this kind of vicious cycle that starts with hyperventilating or the breathing. And so breathing retraining teaches you to breathe slowly from your diaphragm. And it's really this quick, simple way to reach a relaxed state or to tap into your relaxation response. And it's super easy. It's sitting down comfortably, laying on a bed, breathing in through your nose for four seconds, holding it for two, breathing out for six, and repeat and exhaling for longer and longer each time. And you want to practice it for the first times, not while you're having a panic attack, to build up that confidence and build up the skills so that you're able to use it to calm your breathing, which then in turn calms the rest of the symptoms that are happening, the bodily sensations. And then two big things that I love that they're really popular right now, and there's all these apps out right now for them, are practicing mindfulness and also meditation. Those two things go hand in hand. And then muscle relaxation. So learning to tense and release muscles on command, getting to the point where you're able just to release your muscle tension, and that reduces the anxiety.

SPEAKER_03: 39:20

I'm really curious about meditation. I always seem to ask about it because people, that do it, swear by it, as far as helping their anxiety and panic attacks, what is really the mechanism of meditation by doing that on a regular basis on our minds and our brains? So

SPEAKER_02: 39:41

it grounds you in the moment and in your present reality. It also helps you to recognize the emotional state that you're in and reduces stress and helps you relax because you're in that moment. You're shutting out the rest of the world. We don't focus on our current moment. We're always thinking about the next thing or what is the to-do list or whatever it may be. And we are not present to our emotions. We're not present to our physical sensations in our body. And when we do that, things can go awry. So it's just about being present in your body, being present in the moment, and recognizing your body signals, recognizing your emotions and what your needs are.

SPEAKER_03: 40:23

The thing that I'm curious about is when somebody is in a panic attack, they're not in the middle of a meditation. Let's say they meditate in the morning or they meditate at night. The mindfulness, is it also slowing down the racing brain with meditation? Because I noticed that with myself is that it almost forces you to not only relax your mind, but also relax your body and all the other parts of your body. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 40:51

And also a piece of it is, in part of Amos' interview, he was talking about feeling outside of his body. And mindfulness can be something that helps you connect back to your body and into your present reality. And where am I? What room am I in? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 41:08

One thing I really loved about Amos Lee is that he talked about his support system. What are some ways a loved one could support somebody who is experiencing a panic attack?

SPEAKER_02: 41:21

The big things are asking how you can help, validating their distress, validating them just in general. Asking how you can help is important and ask not during the middle of a panic attack, but if you know that somebody you love experiences them, asking them ahead of time when one occurs, how can you help them? These are individuals who, you know, we always have to remember they know best what they need. They have go-to coping methods. it just may be difficult for them to think of what they are in the moment. And so if you know them and you ask them how you can help and you know what those coping strategies are, you can remind them in the moment when it happens. And then validating is so important because people typically have a really hard time sharing their experiences with mental health issues. And that includes panic attacks because they think others may judge them or they won't understand or they don't really bother by talking about it. So just validating someone and saying, no, that is really tough. I'm sorry that you experienced that. let me know what I can do to support you, can be so meaningful to people and let them know that they have a safe space to go to. Other things are remaining calm. It's a scary situation, but if you can remain calm and be that face of calm, that's going to be important for the person. Yeah, I think that those are the big things.

SPEAKER_03: 42:34

I love the fact you talk about validating because I think sometimes when people are going through anxiety or depression, it may not make sense to the other person. For instance, We're talking about panic attacks that seem to come out of the blue or clinical depression that may not be caused by trauma. It could be caused by something physical. It could be caused by hormonal imbalance. But what happens sometimes is people will say, well, don't feel that way or don't be depressed. What do you have to be depressed about? Or why are you nervous? There's nothing to be nervous about. And that can be, it can be hurtful because it's not validating how they're actually feeling.

SPEAKER_02: 43:15

Yeah, and creating a space where they don't have a person to trust and they were trusting in you by sharing it with you. And then each person that shuts them down that way makes it harder and harder for them to talk about it typically.

SPEAKER_03: 43:27

Well, I know support groups are really important for depression and anxiety. I know I went to one when I was in a really bad space, but I wanted to know what you believe the importance is in sharing your story with somebody else. The big

SPEAKER_02: 43:46

things are outside of validation, but it's also normalizing your experience. Is my experience normal? I think a lot of people are questioning that when they have a panic attack, particularly for the first time, and they may think they're very alone. It's a very lonely feeling. And so knowing that you're not alone and that other people are experiencing the same thing you are in the same way, and having that group to go through that experience with and learn with and talk about coping strategies with and what's working for them, and just having that community.

SPEAKER_03: 44:17

It really is kind of a therapeutic process because of all those things that you said. There's so much knowledge and experience that can be shared and especially compassion and empathy because they've gone through it themselves. And who better to learn from but somebody who's had the experience? And I also wanted to emphasize that sometimes people, when they think of therapy, they think, oh, it's just talking. But it's also about learning different strategies and being guided on how to practice these strategies. And just, you know, somebody there to kind of lead you and guide you.

SPEAKER_02: 44:58

The therapist isn't going to be able to fix it for you, but they will lead the way, you know, shine the light on the path and you have to do the work. And sometimes you have to climb the hill and strap on the gear and all of the things, but you have to do the work, but it is so worth it.

SPEAKER_03: 45:15

Right. It's work that really allows you to have a better, brighter life that you can take with you throughout your life. One thing that Amos did during his panic attacks is that he would use positive self-talk. Can you give me some examples of positive self-talk that you can do while you're in a panic attack?

SPEAKER_02: 45:37

Yeah, and also why it works, right? Like when someone's having a panic attack, there's a lot of negative self-talk that goes through their mind. You know, I'm going crazy, I'm going to die, I'm having a heart attack. So knowing what those negative self-talk statements are and being able to replace them with positive ones can be very healing. Some of them can be, this is not an emergency, or I can feel like this and still be okay. This has happened before and I was okay, I'll be okay this time too. I can handle these symptoms. I can handle these sensations. Nothing dangerous is happening right now. All of those things and just repeating those to yourself over and over again.

SPEAKER_03: 46:15

Amos Lee said music was one of the best therapies for him. And I know that when I was playing music and when I listened to music, there's something about it that puts you in a very present state. In other words, you really can't think of anything else but the music when you're playing or when you're listening to it because it's so engaging. And I feel like it kind of gives your mind a break, you know, if you're in distress or something.

SPEAKER_02: 46:44

I mean, music is one of the number one things that comes up in therapy. When I talk to somebody about coping strategies for someone who might be depressed or experiencing anxiety and what used to make them happy, One of the things that falls off, but one of the easiest things to put back in to your life is music. And you would be so shocked. You wouldn't be so shocked, but I think many people would be shocked at what a difference it can make because of those things. Music not only can bring you into a present moment, but it can also bring back memories. So if you're playing music, from a time in your life when you were really happy or you felt joy, it ignites those same feelings and emotions in you. It's really powerful. Just like certain smells can do, or you have these deja vu moments, music can be that as well.

SPEAKER_03: 47:31

Right. And also to be conscious about the kind of music that you put in your head, because that can also affect how you think and how you feel. If you want to be uplifted, it's good to choose music that's going to do that for you, opposed to something really sad. Although sometimes sad songs can make us happy. Totally. And the same thing goes with

SPEAKER_02: 47:54

music, TV as well, social media. Being really mindful of what you're ingesting just through your mind and your eyes is really important because you want it to match the mood you want to have, particularly if you're feeling down or you're feeling anxious.

SPEAKER_03: 48:08

Well, you know, you're also the clinical director of Choosing Therapy, an online telehealth therapy And I wanted to thank you so much for the article on the Best Mental Health Podcast for 2022. I was honored and thrilled that the Check Your Head podcast was included in that list. And I wanted to have you explain more about choosing therapy because with a pandemic and even going forward, there are a lot of musicians on tour or people in general that just can't go into an office for whatever reasons. Can you tell us a little bit more about how choosing therapy is different?

SPEAKER_02: 48:47

You know, video therapy is so convenient. There's no commute. You can fit in any part of the day. If you travel like many musicians do, you can take the call from the road. So it's really increasing access to that care. But in terms of what makes things so unique about our platform, really the biggest thing is that our director makes it really easy to find a great therapist and quickly. So we have hundreds of independently licensed therapists. We cover 27 states in the US. So we have a really broad range of therapists and we can really tailor a match to what somebody is looking for. But our directory also shows real-time availability of our therapists and allows you to book with them completely online. So you're busy, right? If you're on the road or you're a musician, you have time to call 15 or 20 therapists to find out if they're taking clients, to find out if they take your... insurance, whatever it may be, to find out where their next appointment is. With ours, you can go online. You can find the therapist you want. You can book with them as soon as the next day, completely online. You don't have to talk to a person if you don't want to. But if you do, we also have this amazing team of client navigators that will help you find the best match for yourself, answer any questions you have, and help you get booked.

SPEAKER_03: 49:59

That's really great because when somebody's in a mood disorder, it's important to get immediate attention because You never know when that desire might lapse. And there's also a lot of conditions like agoraphobia or even depression where it's hard to get out of the house and different situations where people may just have their phone or their computer in front of them and may not have the way to get to somebody's office. And I do find that thankfully with the pandemic, we've gotten used to Zoom and doing this thing online. And we're finding that it's very personal. We don't necessarily have to be in a room with somebody to have a personal connection.

SPEAKER_02: 50:42

Absolutely. And just speaking for many people in my profession, we were all a little bit worried moving into the video space because for so many years has really classically been you in the same room with somebody. But a couple months in, we were all so... pleasantly surprised by the outcomes and by the connections we were able to make with people via video. And that it was just as good, if not better, because then you sold their space. Now we're seeing the client's space in their lives in a much different way than we would in our office. And it can actually be more advantageous to the healing process than having them in an office where it's not their space.

SPEAKER_03: 51:20

Another thing that can be an advantage is that some people might want to stay anonymous. And they may not want to turn on their video, but they may want to talk with you. Maybe it's a celebrity or somebody that is a notable musician that wants to keep things on the down low. You're able to do that a little better online. Is there anything else that you would like to say about mental health or about choosing therapy? The biggest thing that I want to say is

SPEAKER_02: 51:48

very similar to Amos, is that you hold the key to your healing. And there are people who want to help you, who are literally dedicating their lives to helping you. And with choosing therapy, you can go and you can find a therapist. You don't need to talk to anybody. If you're nervous about talking to someone, you can book with that therapist. You can be seen the next day. You can begin healing as quickly as possible. So if they're on the fence, if they've been thinking about it for a long time or short time, just to try it because it's an incredible experience.

SPEAKER_03: 52:22

A big thank you to our musical guest, Amos Lee, and our mental health expert, Dr. Melissa Boudin. For more information on Amos Lee, his Dreamland Tour, and his Tickets for Teachers program that gives away free tickets to teachers and also raises funds for school supplies, visit amoslee.com. Stay tuned to listen to a clip of his single, Worry No More. And for more information on Dr. Melissa Boudin and Choosing Therapy, visit choosingtherapy.com. And purchase your tickets to the April 24th Benefit Show for Mental Health at checkyourheadpodcast.com or rockcollective.net. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental health that you

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need.

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Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered with Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley, Earshot Media, and Lemon Tree Studios in Los Angeles. Visit checkyourheadpodcast.com where we have over 100 solutions for mental health. Be our friends on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch us on YouTube and support us with a kind donation on checkyourheadpodcast.com. Check Your Head podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.