Jared Watson (Dirty Heads): Alcoholism & Depression Recovery w/Dave Schools (Neal Casal Music Foundation)

Mari Fong interviews Jared Watson of Dirty Heads and Dave Schools of and the Neal Casal Foundation and Widespread Panic. Jared Watson shares how his hard partying ways with Dirty Heads ("Lay Me Down," "Stand Tall") descended into alcohol and drug abuse. He recollects his wake up call when rushed to the hospital, barely able to move from his tour bunk bed. Depression and anxiety followed, with his road to recovery being a remarkable one. Their latest album, 'The Best of Dirty Heads' features the single "Rage" with Travis Barker and Aimee Allen of The Interrupters.
 
Next, we have Dave Schools of Widespread Panic talk about Neal Casal, a musician who died from mental illness in 2019, and the  Neal Casal Music Foundation.  Dave explains the mental rigors of being a touring musician and the foundation's mission to improve the lives of others also battling mental illness. The tribute album 'Highway Butterfly: The Songs of Neal Casal' is out now, with 41 incredible musicians singing the songs of this beloved musician.   

“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Check Your Head Podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and May is Mental Health Awareness Month. It's also Asian Heritage Month, and being half Japanese and half Chinese, gotta give a shout out to the Asian community who's been a great support of the Check Your Head Podcast. Also, stay tuned for lots of positivity and healing for May, and great guests like Jewel, a long-time mental health advocate. For today's guests, we have the frontman for a reggae rock band from Huntington Beach, celebrating 16 years in music. Songs like Lay Me Down, Vacation, and Stand Tall are featured on their latest album, The Best of Dirty Heads. Today we have Jared Watson of Dirty Heads, whose life came to a screeching halt when after being rushed to the hospital due to a long decade of hard partying. Depression and anxiety came along with his alcohol abuse, and Jared will share his best advice for recovery. Next, we have the bass player of Widespread Panic, Dave Schools, who was also a good friend to Neil Casale, a musician who lost his life to mental illness in 2019. Dave will talk about the mission behind the Neil Casale Music Foundation and also how the new tribute album, Highway Butterfly, The Songs of Neil Casale, will help improve the lives of other musicians with mental illness. But first, let's hear Jared Watson of Dirty Heads share his story. I know you've spoken out on your journey and issues that you've had with addiction, depression, anxiety. And I was wondering if you think of those three things, depression, anxiety, and addiction, which of those came first for you?

SPEAKER_03: 1:57

Looking back, I always thought I was pretty happy-go-lucky. And then depression and anxiety really became a problem after the addiction. I looked back and talking with my mom. I did have anxiety as a kid. I just didn't really know anything about it. I didn't even know it was an issue. I just thought that's how I was. Mental health really wasn't talked about. But the addiction came first, and on my journey to get out of addiction is when the depression and the anxiety really became a thing, probably an after effect of that. So I think addiction came first, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 2:33

You know, one thing I read about something you said, which I thought was really on point, was you said that as an entertainer, you bring the party to the crowd. Yeah. And so with that came a certain lifestyle. So everybody, when they party, they have their favorites with drugs and alcohol. What were some of the favorites that you were doing on a regular basis?

SPEAKER_03: 2:58

It was pretty much just booze. So for me, booze was an upper physically. Like obviously it's a depressant on the back end. A lot of people drink and they get tired and they go to bed early or they, you know, for some reason, booze for me was like, It was just fuel. I could go for days and days and days. And that was another part about it. Why I used so much is because I needed to be on a lot, whether it's interviews or on stage and just in life in general, I needed to be on wherever I was. And I thought that alcohol helped with that. Being on the other side of it now, I can be on all the time, all day. I just have different means of getting there. I just have different tools, healthy ones.

SPEAKER_00: 3:42

Well, you know what? I mean, I think there is that party like a rock star image that is put upon a musician opposed to their actual personality. I mean, did you ever feel like there was a disconnect between the image that you wanted to portray on stage versus the person that you are, let's say, at home?

SPEAKER_03: 4:02

Luckily, no. I've always been really, really outgoing. You know, class clown. super social like all that I always took pride in making everybody have a good time and I think that's why music and being an entertainer came easy because it was just built into my personality already the allure of being a rock star was cool because there's no dark side of it yet you don't know the dark side like as a kid growing up there was already in a culture where we drank and smoked and you know I grew up skateboarding that was like my one passion and we drank 40s every day and we smoked weed every day so like Drugs and alcohol, it was fine. It was something that was accepted and it was never a bad thing. If anything, it was the cool thing. But to have a job where I could party all day, not knowing that there was a dark side to partying, not knowing that there was a downside to that, I was like, yes. What does everybody do when they go on a vacation? They usually go on vacation, they have drinks, they get to party, they get to let loose, and 100% they should. So that just seemed like a goal. It just seemed so amazing to have a job where I can party all day. Partying is my job. It was the best. It was the best because I didn't know that if you didn't do it responsibly, there could be consequences.

SPEAKER_00: 5:18

Yeah, I think with drugs and alcohol, it's easy to get baited by it because just even you describing the lifestyle, it sounds so amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 5:27

But there comes a point where the consequences of that

UNKNOWN: 5:31

in the long term, you know, affects your body, affects your mind. I mean, when did you first start noticing that it was affecting you in a negative way?

SPEAKER_03: 5:41

It took a while. So I'd say the first eight years of touring from about 20 to 28, it was hard partying. But you're young and you're resilient and your body bounces back and I can take breaks and I wouldn't come home from tour and it wasn't a regular everyday thing. And then the further that got along, I think around 28, you go on tour for a really long time and you party and you party and you party and you come home and you don't have anything to do. You don't have a nine to five. You don't have a job. I just could sit at home and do whatever. So I started drinking really early because I just, it was fun. I'd wake up and start drinking at one or two or three or stay up all night and go out with my friends. And it was just like this continual thing where I didn't have any responsibilities off the road. So when I have no responsibilities off the road and my habits are in that party mode, that's what I would just keep doing. And then around 28 is really when I think the hooks got set in from alcohol. And it slowly got to a point where I started drinking earlier and earlier. It's probably not that great to drink multiple days in a row, especially heavy drinking, right? You have a couple glasses of wine, whatever. But I was drinking heavily every day in a row. And that went from just nighttime to afternoon to morning to eventually I couldn't get out of bed. I would get out of bed, get a beer, get in the shower, finish the beer in the shower. That's how I started my day. Once that started happening, it was no longer fun. It was like survival. Because at that point, I'm not drinking to enjoy. I was drinking to function. And if you're drinking to function, that's a problem. And that really bothered me. That's where the anxiety sets in and shame sets in. And how did I let myself get here? And then you try and stop and you try and stop. But withdrawals are so gnarly. And you're like, I can't. I have things to do. I have a show to play. I have work. I got to go to the studio. You just made excuses to not ever have to really go through that hard withdrawal, which is scary. And I understand why people don't want to. So it really set in slowly over about eight years to 10 years, got to the point to where I couldn't start my day without drinking.

SPEAKER_00: 7:50

You know, you talked about the shame and I think it's important to talk about because there's hiding that happens when there's shame with addiction or with mental health issues. Can you explain a little bit more about that? You know, what did you do to hide and what were some of the thoughts that you had that had to do with shame?

SPEAKER_03: 8:09

I don't think you want to admit to anybody that you have a problem. We call it a problem. On its face, you're telling people that something's wrong with you. Also, I think it's something that you did to yourself, something that you might have been able to avoid. Maybe your parents haven't talked to you about genetics. Your parents haven't talked to you about your grandparents or your great-grandparents or that it runs in your family. There's no information. You have no information. You don't know that you're biologically just set to be this way. So it's all on you. And I was hiding it. I was hiding little wine bottles in my car. There was booze hidden everywhere. I was hiding it from my band because at that level, it's not accepted. Even at that level in the music industry where you're literally drinking in bed before you're getting out of bed. But yeah, the shame comes from realizing that you have a problem and you think that you did it to yourself and that You know, it's scary. And then you're so used to drinking. I remember thinking, man, I'm not going to be able to drink again. What do I do? What am I going to do? My life is going to be miserable. I think that was one of the biggest hurdles was to be like, I'm never going to be able to drink again because I was so used to it. It was such a part of my life. Looking back now, and I'm so glad it's such a blessing in disguise, especially for my kids. Everything that we did revolved around alcohol. And I think as a society, most things that we do revolve around alcohol. Super Bowls, parties, dinners, you just go out and get drinks, camping, vacations. What do you do on the weekend? Everything that at least my friends did, we added alcohol on top of it. We're going fishing. Who's bringing the beers? We're going surfing. Who's bringing the beers? We're going skating. Who's bringing the beers? Everything we did revolved around booze. And all of a sudden, for that to just be ripped out of your life, you're like... how am I going to even have fun? One, how am I going to have fun? How am I going to be an entertainer? How am I going to be creative? It just seemed like my world would end. So not only the shame, it's scary to think that you're going to have to change your lifestyle so drastically and it's not going to be as good.

SPEAKER_00: 10:21

Well, I think you brought up something really important, which is in the American culture and in other cultures as well, sometimes drinking and drugs is associated with a happy life, a good time. And we may not talk about other things like traveling and relationships and other things in life that bring us so much joy and happiness, especially if we've seen it in our families where alcohol was around during the parties, everybody was laughing. And so I could see how this could be like a mountain of change for you. But during this time, maybe there was somebody close to you. Maybe it was your wife. or maybe your bandmates, did any of them ever come up to you and question you about your drinking or about drug use?

SPEAKER_03: 11:12

The band, no. I knew that they were concerned, but I think it was more like, let's just let them hopefully figure it out. And I don't think they wanted to cause problems on the road, but I know that they were aware of it. My wife, definitely. She got to a point where I was like, hey man, are you going to figure this out? The best part about her is there was zero judgment. There was no ultimatum. Maybe it was kind of an ultimatum, but in the best way. It was just like, I know you can figure this out, and I know that you're not happy, and I have faith that you can figure this out. I'll be here for however long that takes. But if you're not doing the things to figure it out, if you're not actually actively doing it, then I don't know if I can be around. And that's really when it set in. I was like, well, I'm not going to lose you over this. So that was an easy choice for me.

SPEAKER_00: 12:05

Also, drugs and alcohol can sometimes change your personality in different ways. And sometimes when we drink too much, we could pass out and not remember some of the things that we've said or did. Were there ever times where, I mean, a relationship or an event was affected negatively due to you having drank too much.

SPEAKER_03: 12:30

I could write a book. There's no way that I could pick out one. And that's where a lot of shame comes from too. Who the fuck, sorry, excuse me. Who wants to wake up and send out the text message of, oh my God, was I okay last night? And then you get the text messages back. No, you weren't. You should call this person and this person. When that happened, it was like, oh my God. And usually it was, no, we understand. Everybody does it. Because I wasn't an angry drunk. I think that's why it was so easy for me to, because my happy-go-luckiness, my funniness, my outgoingness was just magnified with booze. Even my partner will say, they automatically think that just because you're an alcoholic that you beat your wife or that you become angry. And that's not true. I was really fun. But yeah, there was a lot of times where I was maybe too much fun. And you do shit that you shouldn't and you say things that you shouldn't. And waking up those mornings and having to call people or getting text messages from people, that was the worst. And there's just so much shame that comes with that because you know that it's not you. And what's really fascinating is it's helping me now actually with my three-year-old. When I got clean and I went to a therapist, I went to a doctor, he showed me this big graph of the brain. This helped a lot. He showed me a picture of the brain and he made it more about my body and my brain than about me and just biologically what's happening, physiologically what's happening when I put Boost on my body. And he showed me the brain and he said, see this little area back here? That's where your brain fires when you're drunk. That's also where your brain fires when you're three years old. And I was like, shut the fuck up. He's like, yeah, exactly. So now that I have a three-year-old, I get it. I can deal with her better because it's, oh, I get where your mind is at. I understand why you can't calm down. I understand why you're upset because you couldn't have that cookie. You're not able to control your emotions at this point because when you're drunk, you're not. I understand why you just said that silly thing you said that you maybe shouldn't have said. And it just gives you a little bit better perspective to deal with it. I

SPEAKER_00: 14:39

guess that's a good way to look at it because children really have no filter. They will say and do whatever they think at the moment's notice. And, you know, there you go. You're tapping into a subconscious or even when you're kind of unconscious and doing and saying things that you normally would filter out.

SPEAKER_03: 14:58

When I saw that diagram of the brain and we really went into those things, I started reading and that helped with the shame a lot. I realized that there's me, there's Jared, right? And then there's my brain and there's my body. And I feel like I'm three different things. Sometimes me and my body are connected. Sometimes me and my brain are connected. And sometimes we don't get along. So when I got into the physiology, the science of it, it took away a lot of the shame because genetically, a lot of people in my family are alcoholics. It's a genetic thing. I didn't know that. That took away some shame. And when your brain is firing really isn't necessarily... You know, it's almost three-year-old you. So when I started to look at it that way and started to look at it like this alcohol affecting my brain and getting his hooks in, it kind of took a bit of the weight off that it was completely my fault. And I 100% will take the blame or fault. I'm okay with that. But also people need to not beat themselves up so much because when those hooks do get in, it's hard to get them out. And it's not 100% you that's doing those things. It's not 100% you that's controlling them. I would feel like a zombie. I would sit on my couch and say, I'm not drinking today. I'm not drinking today. And five minutes later, my body would get up and walk to the fridge. And in my mind, Jared is going, why am I walking to the fridge? Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this. That's why I feel like there's me saying, don't do this. Then there's my brain and my body saying, we need this right now, pal. For some reason, when the hooks get in, it tricks your brain into thinking this is the only way to do it. You're giving your brain a day off. You're giving all the little factory workers up there that are making your happy juice and doing all the things that your brain needs to do. You're essentially telling them like, hey, guys, you don't need to do this. You can go sit on lawn chairs and just relax and do nothing. Take the day off because these drugs that we're putting in right now are going to do what you have to do. And then when you tell them to get back to work, they don't want to get back to work. Like, you know what's easier? If you just keep putting in those drugs because we don't have to do anything. When you look at it that way, it seems easier for me.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

I've talked to an addiction specialist about this because I'm really interested myself. She was talking about how addiction can hijack your brain and will tell you things so that it continues to live. That's why we call it a disease is because we don't have the control necessarily, but we can get help. And there are ways, to get out of it. So I'm glad that you were able to find ways to get better for yourself. And I was reading that there was a rock bottom for you. It was very interesting. Can you tell me what happened that really got you in to see a doctor and to get help?

SPEAKER_03: 17:55

Yeah, there was no other option. So I woke up in my bunk. I can't remember what city it was. And I woke up and I tried to get up. I just tried to get out of my bunk. And it was extremely hard to stand up. It was extremely hard to walk down the hall. I was so just shot. It felt like nothing was working. The anxiety was, if there's a scale from 1 to 10, it was at 100. The depression, if there's a scale from 1 to 10, it was at 100. I just couldn't function. Nothing was working. And I was like, something is really wrong with me to my tour manager. I was like, bro, I can't. really even move. I have to go to the emergency room. Something's really wrong. So I got to the emergency room and the doctor just said, yeah, man, you're fried. Your liver's fried. You're malnourished. You're extremely dehydrated. He was like, when's the last time you drank water? And I was like, I couldn't remember the last time I drank water. And the weird hijacking thing is that water would almost make me throw up. I was drinking so much that if I drank water, it would make me sick. It probably had been days since I drank water. Essentially, I was just shot. My body was just completely fried and just shutting down. He said, this is really dangerous. Obviously, I can tell something's up. You're an alcoholic? And I said, yeah, I'm an alcoholic, I guess. And that was the first time I said it, when the doctor was like, you're an alcoholic. I was like, I am? And he was like, yes. You have to be truthful. It was the first person I admitted it to. It was the first person I told how much I drank, because I have to. I felt like I was dying. I really wanted to be safe, so I was telling the doctor what the fuck was up. And he was like, man, that's not good. And I said, I have to play a show tonight. And he's like, I don't think that's going to happen. And I said, it's going to happen no matter what. He said, okay, I'm going to give you some IVs. And I sat in the ER all day and they pumped me full of fluid. And I went back and I played the show. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I got through it. Because once you get on stage, everything goes away. So I think I really powered through it. The next day I woke up and I was taking painkillers at the time. I would drink, try and stop drinking, and I would take painkillers to help with the hangover. And then as soon as I got done with the painkillers, I would start drinking again. It was just that cycle. So the next day, we're in Atlantic City, and I threw my painkillers in a trash can. And I was like, oh my God, this is crazy. This was the day. And I just made a decision. It made me realize that there's five other band members that have wives mortgages, kids, apartments, whatever, at the time that I'm essentially going to ruin their life if I die or if I can't play shows. Also, my wife, my rent, my mortgage. If I continue down this path, I'm not only affecting me, I'm affecting two dozen other people. My manager. I went over the list. I was like, so many people that I'm affecting right now. So I just said, this is it. I'm black and white, made a decision. I can't do this anymore. And I... Finished up the tour. It was about a month. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done.

SPEAKER_00: 21:12

Well, I'm really curious because you kind of went cold turkey.

SPEAKER_02: 21:15

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:17

And you were frightened enough from that doctor's visit and what he told you about what was going on in your body. And thank goodness that he explained things. Can you tell me how that whole process was? Yeah. That must have been a real shock to your body.

SPEAKER_03: 21:34

It was rough. It was like the first day when I couldn't get up. It was just a groundhog's day of that. A groundhog's day of me waking up in the morning, pretty much laying in my bunk all day, just sweating, shaking, crying, taking walks, just mentally dealing with things. It was terrifying. It was the worst fucking time of my life. It was the worst four weeks of my life. I don't wish that on my worst enemy, on anybody to go through that. Withdrawals are no fucking joke. I think personally, I'm the type of person that had to go through that because it made me never want to go back there. I had to hit a bottom. If I weaned off, if I got medication, if I had somebody there, if I went to rehab and it was a little bit easier and not so intense and not so huge and detrimental of a time and so terrifying that I probably would have started drinking again. But it was just so... fucking gnarly that I was like, that's done. You could not pay me enough money to start drinking again. It was that bad. I look back on that time with a lot of empathy and almost a lot of love. I almost look back in a positive way to that, in a very thankful way. I'm very thankful that I went through that. I'm very thankful that I had that. Luckily, it did work for me. It was a long road after, and I got a lot of help. But luckily, that worked for me because I would never go back there. It was very easy after that to be like, that stage of my life is done. I'm essentially allergic to alcohol. And if that's what happens when I start drinking, there's no fucking way of going back there. So it made it easy for me. It made the options not an option. There was no options. It was black or white. So it was so shocking. that there are no cravings anymore. I have booze in my house right now for my friends and family. It doesn't bother me. I can go to a bar. I'm so lucky in that aspect because I have friends that are still going day by day, by week. And for some thing, it was just so heavy that it just really knocked it out to where it's like, that was fun. I'm glad I did it. Now this is a new stage of my life to where alcohol just doesn't even register.

SPEAKER_00: 23:57

Congratulations on getting through that. That's tough. That's really tough. That's tough. I can't even imagine. You did it on your own. You did it on your own. It

SPEAKER_03: 24:06

probably wasn't very safe, by the

SPEAKER_00: 24:08

way. It probably wasn't, only from what I've read, because you can have some severe reactions.

SPEAKER_03: 24:18

Yeah. Luckily, there was nothing wrong, but also I read- So anybody out there that is thinking about doing cold turkey, it might obviously be the best way. And if you are going to do it, at least be supervised.

SPEAKER_00: 24:32

Yes, and it's okay to ask for help during that time because it is sort of a medical thing. But I'm glad you got through it. And now you have healthier routines through a lot of trial and error, I'm sure. I mean, the podcast really is about recovery and about new routines and new addictions that are healthy, that are healing. What are some of your favorites?

SPEAKER_03: 24:57

I'm a huge breathwork advocate, gigantic breathwork advocate. Breathwork, hot and cold therapy, and exercise, for me, 100% saved my life. No amount of therapy did what exercise, hot and cold therapy, and breathwork did for me. The therapy helped. It did. I needed somebody to talk to. My therapists were great. It was working, but I was missing something. When I was getting clean, I was going to a therapist. I wasn't exercising. I wasn't doing anything. The depression was so gnarly. Suicidal thoughts. I couldn't live that way anymore. I couldn't be that depressed anymore. It was months and months and months of depression and anxiety that I never had. God, therapy is helping, but it's bringing out more and this and that. And one day, my friend, he's an ex-MMA fighter. I said, I've been there, man. Come to the gym. You've got to come to the gym. There's no way I can go to the gym right now. He picked me up. I went to the gym. There was a little tiny window of 20 minutes after the gym where I felt like myself again. I was like, what is this? What the fuck is this? Oh my God. I actually feel good. I feel like Jared, what is going on? He's like, dude, I'm telling you. I went to the gym twice a day, every day after that for like a year. And then just going on my path, I found Wim Hof from friends that surfed with. And then as an addict, There was that like, what am I going to do? I can't get a head change anymore. I can no longer get high. I was scared of weed. I was scared of psychedelics. I was scared of everything because I thought I'd relapse. So I was like, what can I do? My friend was like, dude, have you ever done breath work? Like you get pretty high. So I was just trying to like cheat the system. So I did this web half breath work and I fucking got zoinked. I like to the moon. I had this full mini little like Molly trip. I was like, what is this? I can do this as many times as I want. So I started doing Wim Hof, and I started getting high and euphoric feelings, and I started having psychedelic trips just through breathwork, just through 30 minutes of breathing. That made me interested, so I started reading about breathwork. I just did a 12-week mentorship with this guy, Brian McKenzie, with breathwork. He trains the Navy SEALs. He trains Laird Hamilton. Really cool. So now we get to do all these cool things with breathwork. And then... Once I started getting serious with breath work, there was the cold baths, right? The ice baths. And I was like, man, I hate the cold. I don't snowboard. I don't go to the mountains. I live in Southern California. If it was 80 degrees every day, I'd be happy. I hate being cold. So this ice bath, what is this ice bath? You're crazy. I did an ice bath. I powered through it. I did my breath work. I sat in there for three minutes. It was very cool because I overcame something like a fear of mine. And for an hour or two after the ice bath, I felt like a million bucks. I felt invincible. Mentally, I felt insane. Physically, I felt like I could do anything. I was like, what is going on? I started reading about physiology. Once I started exercising daily, doing the ice baths daily, and doing breath works daily, that's when therapy started getting easier. I stopped having to go as much. I stopped having as much depression, anxiety. It all just started to fall off because I kept doing these things that would give me the relief. And then the relief eventually turned into a lifestyle. I found a group where I kind of fixed myself. The depression and anxiety kind of went away. It comes and goes still, but it was very severe. And I really can't give more props to just getting in the gym and doing something every day that you don't want to do. But if you are that addict that's missing something and missing getting high or whatever, the gym can do that. And then you get a six-pack. And then your wife is like, ooh, I like your body. You're like, I'm just trying to get high.

SPEAKER_00: 28:41

You know, I think you are a wonderful example of how the body can recover and repair itself. Not to make this sound too dramatic, but, you know, you were really at possibly death's door, but you've been able to get better and find your solutions that work for you. It

SPEAKER_03: 29:02

was not good until I found exercise. We're human beings. We're supposed to be moving. We're supposed to be exercising. We're supposed to be in the sun. I don't know if we're supposed to be in freezing cold water, but it sure as fuck does something for you. I started making serotonin. I started making dopamine. From the reading that I've done with the ice baths is that it does shock your system. And after the ice bath, I can definitely feel a dump of endorphins. And then it seems to last. And the more you do it, the more consistent it is. And the more I was happy on a consistent basis. I want to be happy because I'm happy, because my brain is happy, because Jared is happy, and his body is happy. The only way I've personally found to do that was through exercise. Even now, it's been over eight years since I've had a drink, but it's a lot of work. It's diet. It's exercise. It's drinking enough water. I think water is really important. That was one of the things that took me forever to realize. Most of my problems that I was having throughout the day is because I don't drink enough water. It's as easy as that. That's what the beauty about breath work and drinking enough water is. You don't think about it, right? Are you breathing properly and are you drinking enough water? The two things that your body needs to live, right? So give your body the two things that it needs, the two essential things that your body needs to live. Why don't you give them more of that and give it to them the right way? And when I figured that out, it's so simple. If you do those two things, you'll see an improvement.

SPEAKER_00: 30:25

I know. Isn't it funny how as you get older, you realize that all those things that you were told when you were little were actually true, was actually good advice.

SPEAKER_03: 30:34

I know, I hated it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

When you're young, you're like, no, they don't know what they're talking about. But we all come to realize that there are natural highs, and the natural highs feel so good. And though it does take work, like to eat the right foods, to exercise, it takes time, but you get so much back from it, especially when you've gone to the edge and have seen some really dark times. One thing that I was curious about is that, you know, Dirty Heads, you had this whole party atmosphere with the band and the music. What do you do now, now that drugs and alcohol are not a major part of your life? How did you make that change or that transition with the band and the music?

SPEAKER_03: 31:17

That's the thing is what I was saying is I thought I needed all this booze to be on. If I exercise, I'm more on, I'm sharper, I'm happier, and I have more energy with exercise than I did with booze. I don't need it. I'm still happy. I still go out and party. I just partied last weekend. I can still go out with my friends and have a great time. At a certain point when I know things are going to get dumb, I'm out. And then I go home and I wake up the next day happy and healthy. And my buddies are hurting. And, you know, even on the road, I look at the guy sometimes. I'm like, how are you feeling today, dude? We have a show tonight. Was it worth it? Like, what did we do last night? Nothing. But we got smashed for no reason. It's part of my job to make people happy and not try and get everybody drunk, but definitely still be the life of the party. It's better now. It's just a better way of partying.

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

One thing I wanted to talk about, when you had the perception of drugs and alcohol as being like the party lifestyle, thinking about not having in your life, I think there is a grieving process that happens when something that has been part of your life for so long Even though it might have been an abusive relationship, it was still a long-term relationship. Can you tell me how that was, that whole grieving process?

SPEAKER_03: 32:36

Yeah, that was rough. I remember having conversations with Kate, my partner. That was the biggest hurdle. Just this whole idea that I could never drink again. It was a really hard pill to swallow. It seemed so devastating. Looking back on it now, it's silly. It's such a silly idea. Who cares? It really does not matter. Nothing has changed. Actually, everything has changed. I'm sorry. Everything just got better. Nothing got worse. That's what I want to tell people. There's no con. There's pros and cons to most things, right? There was no con for me to stop drinking. I've yet to find it. I didn't become less fun. I didn't become less creative. Everything just got better. It just took a while. But for some reason, I couldn't let go like this death in the family or this grieving process that was just so hard for me to let go. I was so scared because I didn't know who I would be without it because it was such a big part of my life and what I thought was such a big part of my identity that I didn't know who I was going to be without it or how my life was going to be without it because I started drinking at 14 regularly. So, It was crazy to even think that I would not be able to have it. But I just know that that was the hardest part. That was the hardest part to let go. It

SPEAKER_00: 33:57

also seems that when you have something like that so much a part of your life, you almost start to think that it is part of your personality. Did you ever think before you stopped that your relationships might change or just how you interacted with people would change?

SPEAKER_03: 34:15

Yeah, I thought nobody was going to

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

like me. Yeah, you know... I'm glad you said that because I do think that that is a common thought.

SPEAKER_03: 34:23

Yeah. That was the first thought. I was like, nobody's going to like me. I don't even know who I am. So how are other people going to like me? And it was the complete opposite. The absolute complete opposite. My band has said it. My close personal friends have said it. I've asked them, hey man, do you find out fun anymore? They're like, you were too much fun. Oh man, we're partying Jared tonight? Oh boy. They didn't have to worry about me. They were like, no, we would much rather have you be this Jared than the old Jared. Nobody misses him. So that's a myth, if anybody out there is feeling that way. It's a 100% myth.

SPEAKER_00: 34:59

I'm so glad to hear that you're married with children now. And you've gone to the other side of depression, anxiety, and addiction. Because I do believe that there is more appreciation for the beautiful life that you've created after you've gone through that. And that kind of is the gift. But is there anything else that you would like to say about mental health or about dirty heads?

SPEAKER_03: 35:25

If anybody's out there struggling, just know that the other side is, it's beautiful. The other side, it's not this scary, spooky place where you're not going to be yourself and you're not going to have fun and happiness isn't going to be there. Like I said, there's no con to getting through something and asking for help. That was a big thing for me too, is I didn't want to ask for help and do it because everybody will help you. People want to help. And everybody that told me that it will get better, that I didn't believe, it gets better. It's so much better over here.

SPEAKER_00: 35:58

Next up, we have a bass player, a studio veteran, and board member of the Neil Casale Music Foundation, Dave Schools. Dave will talk about the foundation's mission to improve mental health among musicians and the recent tribute album, Highway Butterfly, The Songs of Neil Casale. Dave was also a good friend of Neil's and shares how life as a touring musician can be especially tough. You know, your friend Neil was a guitarist, singer-songwriter, a photographer. He released 14 solo albums along with playing with a variety of musicians, Ryan Adams, Shooter Jennings, Chris Robinson of the Black Crows, and of course yourself in the band Hardworking Americans. I kind of wanted to start by you telling me what you found to be So special about your friend, Neil.

SPEAKER_01: 36:47

I like to say that Neil had a lot of secrets. He played his cards close to his chest. I met him on the first day of recording the Hardworking Americans record at the studio in San Rafael, California. He came up from Ventura in his pickup truck, which is usually filled with, if not guitars, surfboards, and unloaded. And we just got right down to it. And he was quiet. He was self-assured, confident. and an extraordinary session musician. Those qualities are calmness, just having the right idea all the time, simplification, encouraging those around him to be their best. And so we recorded about 12 songs in two or three days, and I was just like wowed by this guy. And he's super friendly and laid back and charming. Then the band got out on the road, and you learn a lot about a person when you're on a tour bus. with them and spending a lot of time in dingy dressing rooms and then getting that couple of hours of blissful release on stage and then a long night in the tour bus. And we just had so much in common, music that we loved and people that we loved. Neil was what I call a king mixer. He loved putting people together that he respected and enjoyed working with. So he was all about connections and just a sweet and super creative guy. Never took himself too seriously, but took what he did very seriously.

SPEAKER_00: 38:17

You mentioned him being kind of a private guy and getting to know him. And sometimes when people are going through challenges, they don't want to talk about that. Was there anything about his personality where you felt like he was having challenges with his mental health or even life challenges in general?

SPEAKER_01: 38:38

No, it took a lot of us by surprise when he ended his own life. Musicians and performers are really adept at putting on a game face because it can be like acting in a certain degree. And sometimes for a person who is dealing with mental challenges, being on the road is hard. And just getting on stage and just being with people in such a close environment, even though you appear to be normal, you might be doing a good bit of acting. Neil, he kept his secrets. And when it comes to mental health or the struggles he was having, he did not really want to share those. He found peace in surfing. His photography, I feel, was a really great visual representation of the loneliness he felt. If you look through some of his photography, a lot of it is black and white, which sort of lends itself in its monochromaticness to melancholy. If you listen to his songs... There's a really good bit of melancholy minor chords. There's a lot of where do I fit in? Why does my heart hurt? And with Hindsight being 2020, after he left us and we began to put this tribute record together, we realized that he left clues. There's a song called Lost Satellite where, you know, and he said in his manifesto that sometimes he felt like he was on an outer orbit looking in at everyone else. He got lucky and was able to fill the hole that existed in him with his artistry. And he could leak these messages out, but I wish that he had sought out some professional help because depression is painful mentally and physically. But there's a good bit of delusion that goes along with it. And I think that's an important thing to talk about when we talk about normalizing talking about this stuff. Depression, for instance, let's just hit it on the nose. Bam. The bluegrass artist Jeff Austin committed suicide, and he did it on vacation with his family. And I was talking to my wife about how I always thought that suicide was probably the most selfish act a person could commit. And my wife brought something up that made me think. She said, what if the person who is depressed is so delusional that they feel that the lives of their loved ones would be better without them in it? And that really struck me. So Neil reached out to me. In fact, this is one of the last text threads we had. He's like, hey, how are you doing in the wake of this Jeff Austin thing? And I told him what I just expressed in the exchange with my wife. When I said the person is so delusional that they really legitimately feel that their loved ones would be better off without them, he simply texted, I get it. And I wish that I had thought about that. But this is another byproduct of the hindsight when someone commits suicide, there's a lot of, could I have prevented this? I think it's natural for us to feel that way. We've lost someone that we love dearly, and there's a big gaping hole. But really, no, I don't think I could have. I think what we're doing here, Mari, is providing something that folks will hopefully hear. And every time they hear a conversation like this, there's a little more hope and a little more motivation to reach out to someone who really can help. You can share with your friends and you can spill with them all you want, but I think there's always a filter on because they're your friends. Are they judging me? If I tell them these deep, dark secrets about myself, are they going to think less of me? Are they going to pity me? Are they going to bully me by trying to help me? But a professional, you're not going to have that lens. A good listening therapist knows how to listen. and provide feedback in a nonjudgmental way. People need to know that these things are available.

SPEAKER_00: 42:40

And oftentimes when you're having thoughts like that, you could just be by yourself with your phone, whether it's a text message or whether it's calling somebody. These are things that people can do, but it is hard really to see signs if somebody is not really expressing what's going on with them. I want to get to the Neil Cassell Foundation, which was a nonprofit created in his name. Can you tell me about the mission behind the nonprofit and what you're trying to do there?

SPEAKER_01: 43:12

Sure. It's a two-pronged mission. And the first one is something that's so incredibly important, which is getting instruments into the hands of kids at schools. We're primarily getting guitars and keyboards and other instruments into the hands of middle school, high school kids. in areas of New York and New Jersey where Neil grew up. This is so important. I can personally vouch for the importance of having an instrument with which to express ourselves. But the secondary is the mental health benefit. And we hope to donate money and bring awareness to Music Cares, Backline.Care, Nucci Space in Athens, Georgia, which is very near and dear to my heart. Nucci Phillips was a musician who committed suicide, but his mom died. Found a warehouse and turned it into a place with rehearsal bins, free mental health care, once or twice a month, free physical health care, coffee shop, performances, auctions, just a great community resource. And we just want to help in any way we can. Part of the message that I always want to impart whenever I speak to someone about this subject is we just talk about it. The more we talk about it and the more we can shed light positive light or the fact that you're not alone and it's important to talk about it to someone who may be suffering and also bring about the knowledge of the availability of backline.care what music cares is doing also sweet relief and i think we're going to see a lot more of these types of organizations and a lot more sort of organic reaching out to where there will be a network there's a whole resource of hotlines and internet sites with just information. And anyone who's been in any kind of recovery knows that the most important tool you might have in a moment of crisis is a cell phone with a number of someone that says, don't hesitate to call me. And people have reached out, and I'm always very thankful when they do.

SPEAKER_00: 45:20

Yeah, it's really something very special and something that is always memorable. When you're able to talk to a friend during a really dark time, and I've gone through depression, I've experienced anxiety, so I know what it feels like when you talk about the delusions. We call them lies that depression will tell you, like your family is better off without you, or you're worthless, or you're alone. You feel alone. That's the thing about this disorder is that even if you're surrounded by people who love you, There's a disconnection that happens and it's difficult. I mean, if you could imagine being disconnected to music, something that you love or being disconnected to your children, it's very painful. So opening up the discussion and all of the organizations that you mentioned are on our website at checkaheadpodcast.com. And of course, we're going to include the Neil Casale Foundation. I do feel like we're starting to all work together because we're really all on the same mission. which is helping people in the music community find their solutions for recovery. Now, I'm really excited about Highway Butterfly, the songs of Neil Casale that recently dropped. Can you tell me about some of the artists on that album and what you want to do with it?

SPEAKER_01: 46:41

There are 41 artists on this album, each one doing a different Casale song, and backing them up are over 100 other musicians involved. Artists, Hall of Famers like Bob Weir and Phil Lesh, Terrapin Family Band, household names like Steve Earle, people you've just beginning to hear a lot about, Marcus King, Billy Strings, Leslie Mendelsohn. It goes on and on, and everybody did such an amazing job, whether it's Aaron Lee Tashin coming in to interpret Neil's song, Traveling After Dark, and then sticking around the next day to play a scorching guitar solo on Jesse Aycock's Losing End Again. Everybody just came in with nothing but love and respect for Neil. This is about four or five months after Neil passed away. So a lot of us, especially people who played in circles around the sun with Neil, were still hurting. So to get together and record these songs was fellowship and celebration and remembrance of all the healing things that I didn't get angry at Neil until a year after he passed away. I never was in denial. It's obvious. I was depressed about it, but I kept myself busy. I never bargained because it was too late to bargain. So those stages of grief was pretty much anger and acceptance was really all I was going to have. And it took me a while to get angry. But as people came through the studio making the record, some barely knew Neil. Billy Strings had met Neil at a festival. They had a mutual admiration. And Billy was talking about how he was having a tough time dealing with the pressure of his fans expecting him to sort of help them with their crises. And I've got my own crises to deal with. How do we do that? And so we had a long talk about these things and boundaries and taking time, self-care, doing the things. For him, it's fishing. He loves fishing. Get away from the grind and Get some air in your lungs. And we had a wonderful day. And then I got back to my hotel room and Chris Robinson called me and said, Neil hung himself. I mean, that's blunt, but it's the truth. And I think we have to be blunt when it comes to these things. So Billy, to me, is important. And having him be the first artist to record his song for Highway Butterfly was vindication of not only an idea, but an idea that Neil and Billy had been working on. Just to go back a little bit to when we were talking about life on the road and how it can affect mental health, I think a lot of people have one of two ways of thinking about musicians on the road. They either think it's a constant party, like the three hours of celebratory entertainment that happens on stage just continues on the tour bus and in the hotel rooms, and maybe it does if you're Guns N' Roses in the 1989 tour, but we can't keep that up forever, so They either know that it's drudgery and hard work, or they think it's a 24-hour party. But what they don't realize often is that no matter which one of those it is, it's hard to get home. A lot of musicians, they don't know what to do with themselves when they're home, regardless of whether they have a family or a side project or, I don't know, maybe they, like Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull has a salmon farm. But it's different, and it's different enough to where if you aren't aware of What touring does to your muscles. You're like an athlete at the top of the game. You come home and stop. Your body is still doing the long jump. You're laying in bed going, why can't I sleep? But your body's muscles and the adrenaline that you would associate with a routine is preparing for a long jump. I used to sit at home watching Seinfeld and going, why do I feel so anxious? And finally it dawned on me. That was when I would be preparing for a show. And so I For me, I would medicate that part away. I would self-medicate at home. It got to where I was self-medicating on the road, but it wasn't because it was hard. It wasn't hard for me to go to stage. It wasn't hard for me to be in a tour bus and a nice hotel. It was boring. Ronnie Millsaps, a country artist, is famous for saying, the gig is free. You pay me for the schlep. For the airplane ride and for the endless hours on the bus and sitting around in a hotel room or at a venue experiencing what they call hurry up and wait, where you have to be there at four, but guess what? Things are running late and you're not going to do anything until six, but you can't leave and we don't serve food. We do, however, serve alcohol. Those things, I don't think everyday people think about that. And so when the COVID shutdown happened, it was not unlike getting home from a tour. And it's like, oh my God, what do I do with myself?

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

And you said that at one point you were self-medicating when you got home. How did you get out of that and get healthier? It

SPEAKER_01: 51:52

was like quicksand. It looked like it might be nice to step on, and then it was a slow descent until I was about to suffocate. Substance abuse happens slowly over time, and then it wants to push your head under the water. And I had what was commonly referred to as a moment of clarity, where I was just like, I got into the music business so that people couldn't tell me what to do. Why am I letting a white powder, why am I letting a substance run me like a puppet and telling me what to do? This is dumb. And I'm really lucky that I woke up every day until I had that revelation, and then I sought help. And I went to a rehab and I learned some things. I think it's all about filling the toolbox. If I want to be better equipped to deal with things in a different and more positive way than I had in the past, I need a better toolbox. And that's what I learned from people who are like me. And I'm not here to espouse 12-step programs. I'm here to espouse the experience, strength, and hope of other people who've been through the same thing. Because some of the best meetings I ever went to was talking to somebody backstage who had been through what I had been through. And so that's the long and short of it. I sunk into the muck until it was up to my eyeballs. And I pulled myself out. And then I had a lot of people helping me brush that muck off and keeping me pointed in the direction away from it. And I will proudly say that my mental health was not the best. That's why I started self-medicating. I didn't feel like I had anyone to talk to. I do believe that mental health, depression, and addiction are all insidiously intertwined. It's very important that in the Highway Butterfly record, we have the information for the Neil Casale Foundation, which then leads to more information. It's important that there's that linkage there because when you're floundering, the times when I've been floundering in a dark space, There might be a million resources out there, but you can only maybe see one of them. And that's the one that can save your life.

SPEAKER_00: 54:10

And sometimes when you're in that space, it's hard to even reach out to one because you're just exhausted. You're tired and you just feel like nothing is going to work. But that's the part where you really have to push yourself and keep trying. And, you know, thank you so much for bringing Neil's music and kind of resurrecting it and putting it out in a different way with all his friends. Because Even though Neil put out 14 soul albums, he's not necessarily a household name. But I feel like this is giving his songs new life through the people that he loved most. And that really is special. So I hope everyone picks up Highway Butterfly, the songs of Neil Casale. And Dave Schools, I want to know if there's anything else that you would like to say about the foundation or about mental health in general.

SPEAKER_01: 55:00

Let's just all talk. Let's be brutally honest about how we feel. It's the hardest thing in the world to do, but let's give it a shot. Let musicians stick around longer so that they can grace us with their gifts.

SPEAKER_00: 55:14

A big thank you to our musical guest, Jared Watson of Dirty Heads, and Dave Schools of the Neil Casale Foundation and Widespread Panic. For more information on Dirty Heads, visit DirtyHeads.com. Dirty Heads will be playing the California Roots Festival on May 26, and their Let's Get It Crackin' tour starts in June 2022. For more information on the Neil Casale Music Foundation and to purchase Highway Butterfly, The Songs of Neil Casale, visit neilcasalemusicfoundation.org. For more on Dave Scholl's band, Widespread Panic, and their upcoming tour, visit widespreadpanic.com. So until next time, be brave. Ask for help and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.