CHECK YOUR HEAD: Mental Help for Musicians

Katelyn Tarver "Reboot": Living w/Anxiety & Teen Self-Doubt w/Dr. Adi Jaffe (Psychologist, The Abstinence Myth)

• Mari Fong • Season 4 • Episode 4

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CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast "Reboot" of Katelyn Tarver speaking on Anxiety & Teen Self-Doubt for World Teen Mental Health Day, celebrated on March 2, 2025.

Mari Fong interviews Katelyn Tarver, singer-songwriter and actress, and Dr. Adi Jaffe, psychologist, addiction specialist, and author of The Abstinence Myth. 

Katelyn Tarver shares her story and solutions for living with anxiety and teen self-doubt, growing up in the spotlight as a young girl. Katelyn was only 16 when her first EP was released, followed by 5 more EPs before winning NBC's "Songland" in 2019.  Katelyn was only 14 when she first debuted on television, often feeling overwhelming fear and nervousness throughout her career.  

Next, we have Part 2 of the interview with expert Dr. Adi Jaffe, Ph.D, psychologist and author of the book,The Abstinence Myth.  Dr. Jaffe shares the importance of finding the root causes of addiction and how therapy can be essential to longtime recovery and sobriety. He explains his unique approach with the IGNTD program.

“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/

* Donate to our mission at checkyourheadpodcast.com or on our patreon.com page. Every dollar is appreciated, every listener is appreciated.

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SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and November is the month of Thanksgiving when we show our thanks and gratitude to those around us with our words and our actions. With Thanksgiving, we think of family, but anyone can really be our family if we let them into our lives. So let's make it a habit to let others know how you feel, what their friendship means to you, or why you love them. Show them with your actions by spending time, helping out, and being there for them. Expressing my gratitude is something I enjoy because it's a meaningful way to brighten up someone's day. So today I'd like to show you my appreciation to all the listeners, guests, and supporters of the Check Your Head podcast. I'm truly grateful for this experience, and I'm proud to say that we're now in the top 3% of podcasts worldwide, and that is all thanks to you. Thank you for your reviews, your follows and likes on our socials, YouTube views, and especially for being part of the positive difference of better mental health for us all. You are my Check Your Head superheroes. Now to our featured guests. You may have first seen this singer-songwriter and actress on the Nickelodeon series Big Time Rush or on the HBO series Ballers, but her first taste of musical fame was co-writing Cheryl Cole's number one UK single Crazy Stupid Love and then released six EPs of her own music before winning NBC's Songland in 2019. Today's musical guest is indie pop artist Caitlin Tarver, whose album Subject to Change dropped on November 12, 2021, and we'll play a clip of her single Shit Happens at the end of our episode. Caitlin shares her real-world solutions for dealing with the anxiety and self-doubt that comes with her career, and how she spills her moods into songs like You Don't Know, a song that captured how it feels when you're not okay, and the many songs on her new album filled with emotional honesty and vulnerability. Next, we have part two of our interview with expert Dr. Adi Jaffe, a Ph.D. psychologist and author of the book The Abstinence Myth. Dr. Jaffe shares the importance of playing detective when finding the root causes of addiction and also how therapy can be essential to long-term recovery and sobriety. But first, let's hear Kaitlyn Tarver share her story. Kaitlyn, congratulations on your upcoming album that's called Subject to Change. Some people know you as an actress, but you are also a longtime singer-songwriter. Mm-hmm. And one thing I read that I really loved was that you wanted to write songs currently that make people feel less crazy for feeling how they feel. And haven't we all gone through times like that? Haven't we? You know, and I do believe that albums kind of represent a chapter in our lives. How do the songs on subject to change sort of represent this chapter of your life? You know, I

SPEAKER_02:

think even with what I was saying of making people feel less crazy, I've just, in the past few years, really been drawn to art that is, you know, more vulnerable, more saying things that are like... maybe small things that have been in my head and things that I don't really feel comfortable saying out loud or wonder if I'm allowed to say out loud. And when you hear it, it just gives you such a sense of comfort because you're like, okay, I'm not alone. I'm not crazy. I'm not the only one who feels this way. And, you know, that's kind of an elementary concept, but... I just got more and more drawn to this idea of trying to dig deeper within myself and find those things that I was thinking and figure out how to say them out loud through my songs. And I looked up to other artists that were doing that. And so with this album in particular, I started therapy last summer. So it helped just unlock a lot of I don't know, just the courage to just put stuff out there and into the songs that I normally would have shied away from. And you know, I still feel like in a lot of ways, I'm just starting to scratch the surface of this. But I do feel like these songs capture a side of me that feels a little more raw, if you will. So yeah, it's Everything you could imagine I'm feeling, I am feeling, which is excitement, nerves across the board. But yeah, it's happening. No going back now.

SPEAKER_03:

That's true. And it takes a lot of bravery to peel back the layers. And so I congratulate you on that. You also mentioned starting therapy last summer. So big props to you on that also. What is it that's prompted you to start therapy?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I've been in this industry essentially since I was 13 years old. And now I'm 31, so basically half my life. And it was just a lot of what I was experiencing with... trying to pursue this career and while also growing up and you know graduating high school and then moving to LA and then I got married young and being a few years into a marriage and sort of hitting that late 20s slump of just like okay I'm old enough to have made certain decisions that I am now can either look back and be happy I did or look back and be like, oh, I wish I would have done that a little bit differently. And just kind of trying to make sense of the choices I have made and how they affect my life and what I want to keep and what I want to shift. Just all that stuff that was a lot of reevaluation of my life of like, why am I doing this? Do I want to still keep pursuing music? Do I want to still keep pursuing acting? In what way? What do I even like about this? Why am I doing it? Am I just doing it for fame? It was just all those questions started coming up. It's a lot of work to kind of take stock of your life and be like, okay, I feel a little out of sorts. What am I going to do about it? And for me, I put off therapy for years because I was like well I'm fine I'm just having a moody week because I didn't get this part I auditioned for and whatever I'll get over it and then I think you realize years pass and you're still feeling in this funk and you're like well I gotta face it at some point or another and then obviously throw a pandemic on top of it and that was enough to make me make the call

SPEAKER_03:

Good for you. I mean, it almost sounds like you've got to a point where you really want to plan out the next few years of your life. And you know, the 20s are really turbulent. I think sometimes we just kind of go with the flow, not really stopping to think, what do we really want to do? Because so much is coming at us and we have so much of this energy, almost like nervous energy. Well, what did you discover now that you're in therapy about

SPEAKER_02:

yourself? It's interesting that you say the 20s are turbulent because they are. But for me, I think I kind of unconsciously was a person that was like, I want to make all the right moves. I want to plan my life out so I don't experience any turbulence. I am going to move to LA. I'm going to do this career. I'm going to get married. I'm going to like check all these boxes so that I don't have any surprises that will throw me off course. And obviously that's just not realistic for me unconsciously just craving certainty craving control craving a path that felt secure and all the while being in a career that is none of those things and also realizing that life is none of those things i think a big thing for me in the past few years and even in going through therapy is like how much i want certainty about things and I want solid ground and I don't like unknown and I don't like change and I don't like when things throw me off and life just kept doing that that's a lot of what I learned and honestly what the album is touching on and even why I called it subject to change is just sort of wanting to learn how to be open to life's uncertainty and realizing that it's okay to not know everything or not be sure or not have a mapped out path like it's okay to make mistakes it's okay to like not be a perfectionist like all that kind of stuff I'm you know trying to rework in my brain and a lot of what I was working through while making this album

SPEAKER_03:

it comes with experience and with with maturity yeah to realize that you know that we only have so much Right. Right. And you know, you had a song. It was called You Don't Know. And that's the one that got 56 million views. And it was voted by Parade Magazine as one of the depression songs that will help you feel less alone. And from that, can you remember some of the comments or messages that you received from your fans about the song?

SPEAKER_02:

My God, there's been so many at this point, which is just so crazy. It can be easy for me and all artists to kind of forget like what we're all ultimately after is to try and connect with people and try to offer some sort of connection through our art and what we write or say. And it can get clouded by trying to measure your success against other people or like how many streams or numbers or popularity, you know. I can get so overtaken with wanting all of these markers of success and forgetting that really the marker of success should be getting these messages from fans that are like, this song helped me make sense of my anxiety or my depression or helped me feel less alone. I mean, I've gotten hundreds and hundreds, even the comments on the video, still to this day, they're still piling up of people just saying how much it's helped them it helps me to continue to press into that feeling of trying to communicate what that song is about which is essentially it's okay to feel sadness to feel heaviness to feel you know kind of these quote unquote negative emotions like We all feel those things and it's okay to not just like gloss over them and put a bandaid and present this version of yourself that's happy, perfect person. That's what that song tapped into was just, you know, there's almost like a frustration in the lyrics of, hey, like, just let me feel this for a second. I'm not saying I want to live here forever or that I should live here forever, but I don't know. That's kind of the sense that I get when people talk to me about it is like it helps them feel something in a way that maybe helped it feel a little less heavy. So it's really meaningful.

SPEAKER_03:

A lot of that song is about acceptance, acceptance of the full range of emotions that we all have. Because I do find that sometimes there are certain people that will only accept us when we have the acceptable emotions, according to them. And when you you approach them and you're honest, they will be like, well, snap out of this. Or how could you feel that way when your life is going so good? And all of these comments that can be really hurtful when you're in a bad place. And we all have certain people, special people in our lives where we have that bond where we can be our true selves. Who is that for you? And how did that trust bond develop?

SPEAKER_02:

Gosh, I mean, I've always had a really supportive family. I got married young, so I've been with my husband. We've been married seven years. We've been together for 11. So, I mean, I started dating him when I was 20. So we definitely have a pretty deep bond of acceptance, and he's very encouraging of me doing exactly what I want to do and saying exactly what I want to say and putting my work out there. which I think has really helped me have the confidence to keep doing it. And I feel very lucky. I feel like I am surrounded by a lot of people who allow me to be myself and have these emotions. You're right. It does make a huge difference when you have that in your life as opposed to not. You just feel a lot safer to have these messy emotions and be able to kind of put it out there and not, you know, be judged for it or feel like you're too much. I mean, a lot of reason of why I started therapy too, is like, you can have someone that you pay to say these things too. Cause yeah, eventually your family's like, all right, yeah, we get it enough. It's hard. But I think ultimately I do feel like I have their support, which I'm really grateful for.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, you have that song called You Can Fall Apart Too. Yeah. And that's kind of what it reminds me of is this, the ability to be able to fall apart to somebody and that they are going to be there for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, that was honestly kind of about my marriage and my relationship. I felt like I was becoming the one that was always there complaining or having these big feelings and putting them on to him and expecting him to be able to carry it. And then realize having this moment of like, oh, I want to be that for you too. I want to be able to make sure I'm a place that you can feel safe to come to as well. And I had to kind of think about that and reassess how I was unloading a lot of my emotions all the time. And maybe it wasn't even a But we also just have different personalities. And I think that was kind of the sentiment. It's like a song about wanting to be a safe space for someone or a safe place for someone to land. Yeah, that's a special one to me.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, you know, the one song I've been able to hear from your new album, it's called Shit Happens. Yes. And that happens to all of us in our lives, sometimes on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

There's a habit that happens is that we look for blame.

SPEAKER_04:

What

SPEAKER_03:

do you think the danger is in doing that? Looking for blame when things go wrong.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, man. It can just be a habit. It can be kind of like an unconscious thing. It's like an attempt for control. It's an attempt for control. okay, if I can figure out who to blame here, then I can put the blame on them. Therefore, this shitty thing that happened makes sense. So I don't feel like everything is chaos or random. It's one thing when it's like, I spilled coffee on my shirt earlier. It's like, oh, shoot, you know, there's like these lighthearted, every take kind of shit happens moments. And then There's tragic, awful, horrific experiences that humans face that that's what can be really challenging. Like, well, who are you going to blame for this? Because most things like that don't have anyone to blame. And that's kind of the heart of the song is just talking about that balance of, okay, is it really going to make it better if you find someone to blame? Usually not. For me, it doesn't. I mean, oh, okay, I guess I know now who to blame. Is that really that helpful? With the bigger kind of tragic events in life, most of the time, those have no explanation. And anyone who tries to make it seem like it does is just uncomfortable with the fact that that can happen, which I totally connect to. It's scary to think of things that could happen or things that will never make sense. I feel like I've been chipping away at this message since I wrote You Don't Know, which I wrote a long time ago. It's sort of like this, hey, let's all just not try to gloss over the hard parts of life because ultimately they can be healing if you face them. I

SPEAKER_03:

think there's also a bond that happens when we share something really tough about our lives with somebody. And I feel sometimes that It's kind of a special moment when someone trusts me to tell me about that. And when you're going through something with somebody as trying your best to help each other, it's something that you don't forget because you know that person has been with you during the good times, which is easy, and during the bad times, which can be tough. But that person was there. They didn't go away. And it's so easy to step away. Oh

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, for sure. It is hard to make it through the times that are challenging because when you go through a hard time, it's not like you can guarantee you'll have a week where you feel down and then you'll snap back into your old self. I mean, some things linger for years and I think that's really uncomfortable. It's really challenging to deal with in yourself and with people close to you But it is bonding, and it almost feels like the point of life to be there for each other.

SPEAKER_03:

You started to do these Instagram live streams during the pandemic, and they've gotten really popular. What was your initial purpose for coming up with this whole idea? Everyone

SPEAKER_02:

was going live at the time. You know, the pandemic hit, like tours were getting canceled. Everything was going insane. And everyone was like, let's go live and try to talk to each other. Oh, that could be fun. I was putting some music out. I was about to go on tour and then that got canceled. So it was also just something to do because everything came to a screeching halt. And then I kind of just kept doing it because I was like, well, this is kind of, fun for me I like getting to talk to people and having a good time doing this people seem to still want to talk to me and people are watching it so I'm just going to keep doing it but yeah it kind of became this really cool outlet for me to talk about creativity and music and I mean some of them were really light and fun the whole time some of them got a little more in depth and I got to meet a lot of new people by doing it too because I eventually ran out of you know friends It's like, oh, I wonder if this person I like their music or like their writing or whatever would do it. And so I got to interview a lot of cool people, which ended up in us, you know, now knowing each other and kind of keeping in touch, which has been which has been cool.

SPEAKER_03:

I was reading somewhere that you were starting to write more songs that have a message, which, you know, shows your depth. I was wondering with these Instagram live streams, can you remember some of the conversations that had heavier topics and what were those topics about? I

SPEAKER_02:

have a terrible memory, but I remember, I'm just a huge fan of this author named Jedediah Jenkins. We ended up having a really cool conversation and I was so excited to get to talk to him. And I feel like a lot of what he said was, What's kind of touching on a lot of what we've talked about here so far, you know, like no one's got it figured out. We're all just kind of learning as we go. I feel like that's just a powerful thing to remember when you're sort of getting locked in a comparison or feeling like you're not quite where you want to be or you want to get to a certain place and you're hitting all these roadblocks. Like it can just be a lot to get caught up in. And I felt like a lot of his writing was sort of touching on a lot of these themes of, yeah, like no one's got to figure it out. We're all learning. We're all in process. We're all trying to figure it out, which I'm just always really drawn to people that are open like that and not super certain with like, this is how it is. This is how things work. Sometimes

SPEAKER_03:

we get competitive with other people. And then sometimes we get competitive trying to reach the goals that we've set for ourselves, which may not even be realistic without factoring in all of the obstacles along the way. And that could be frustrating. Sometimes when we go through these obstacles, it's really hard to hear things like, well, what did you learn from that? Until it's way past that you're like, okay, now I can finally talk about that. Totally. But I do feel like, you know, sometimes these obstacles teach us to go in a different direction that we may not have expected to go to. Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

for sure. I mean, I think that's such a hard part of life. life is all the unexpected things that you weren't planning on entering your path like inevitably do and it can really derail you or you can learn how to roll with it and go okay how do i take this and let it teach me something and eventually you end up in a place totally different that you weren't expecting, but that is maybe more rewarding than the thing you had set out to do. I'm really trying to remain open. I think it's so easy to have a one-track mind and be like, this is what I'm after, this is what I'm trying to accomplish, and I'm going to do anything I can to get there. And yeah, you get competitive, you get obsessed with these very specific markers, and they never... feel as good as you think they're going to feel. And then you get there and you're like, I did it. And then you're like, what's next? For sure. Or you don't get those markers and it's really disappointing and it makes you really down on yourself and have to deal with those emotions coming up and these feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt. It's funny what you said. It reminded me, like I always get a little frustrated with People coming on and talking about their success stories, you know, everyone comes on and I didn't think I was going to get to this point. And then right when I gave up, I got it. And it's just sort of creates this feeling of, wait, okay, so what? It's always easier in hindsight to like share your success stories. I think in general, things rarely turn out exactly how you expect they're going to. And that can be really disappointing and really hard to deal with. And I think it's hard to talk about because it's like, well, things aren't going bad. They're just different than what I thought. And it's hard to know how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, just having the flexibility to kind of go with what's going on and maybe try to turn it in your favor. It comes with maturity and with experience. Yeah. One thing you mentioned was appearances. And sometimes on social media, it's like the perfect place where people kind of put on appearances, making it look like everything is perfect. Right. But one thing I'm wondering, especially from somebody who's been in music and also who's been an actress, sometimes the comments can really be hurtful and come out of left field. How do you manage that? And what is your attitude toward negative social media comments? You know, I

SPEAKER_02:

feel pretty lucky so far. I don't feel like that's been a huge part of my story. There have definitely been negative comments. And I am a huge baby when they happen and I get very hurt and I will literally treat it as if this person has known me my whole life and what they're saying holds so much weight and I can be like what they don't even know me and it will just stick in your brain so long but that's something that I have not had to deal with a lot, thankfully, because I don't deal with that many haters. I've gotten the occasional hater and it has ruined my week. So I'll probably really fall apart when I start getting real haters. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But yeah, I hear bigger celebrities talk about haters and negative comments and It really is so hurtful. I do think it's just so interesting how some people can get behind a screen and say things so mean and negative towards someone they've never met. Even if they are famous, it's cool for celebrities to come out and be like, hey, we are actually just human beings and we are very fragile and sensitive just like you are. So this is hurtful.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think you're right. People don't think maybe that person is going to read it and it's maybe their way of venting in some way, but it could be very harsh because it's completely unfiltered. And when we talk with people like on a regular normal basis, no one will say something like what is said in social media. So it's kind of just an unrealistic medium,

SPEAKER_02:

I suppose. You have to kind of do your own assessment of what you can handle. Because for me, and I'm not good at this, by the way, I hardly put any restrictions on it because I'm addicted. But when I wake up and I start scrolling and I see something that set off something in me that's made me now feel bad about myself. And then I'll take that, I'll try to brush it off, but I'll sort of be irritated. And I'll be like, why am I irritated? It's always kind of tracing back to something that I saw that then made me compare myself to them and compare my path to them. And now I'm somehow thinking that my whole trajectory is doomed. And I'm like, what? How did this happen? You know, I'm exaggerating slightly, but it is such a hard thing. thing to know how to balance and I mean I can't imagine growing up on it for my whole life like kids today having to deal with social media and the effects of it and the ramifications it's a lot for me to deal with as an adult

SPEAKER_03:

you know George Clooney said something once he said his father said You know, when they say really, really great things about you, just kind of take that with a grain of salt. And then on the flip side, if people say like really horrible, horrible things about you, just take it with a grain of salt. You know, because, yeah, maybe you're like somewhere in the middle. Yeah, exactly. Just try to have those comments, maybe not take them as seriously as we could sometimes feel them. Right, yeah, for sure. One thing you said was you talked about spiraling and usually can be compared to when you talk about anxiety.

SPEAKER_04:

And

SPEAKER_03:

then there's also depression. Do you feel like you have experienced either or any of those during your life or career?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think so. I think definitely. Yeah. recognizing that habit of spiraling and creating scenarios, naming that as anxiety was helpful for me because sometimes the perception with mental health, with anxiety, with depression, it can be like very real for some people like depression. I can't, I can't get out of bed. I have no motivation. You know, These very obvious signs and same with anxiety. It's like I have panic attacks, which means I can't breathe. So I wasn't relating to any of those. So I was like, well, I guess I don't deal with anxiety, but then sort of seeing the patterns in my life. Oh, like I tend to do a lot of projecting what is going to happen in the future and trying to find all the ways that it's going to go wrong or it's going to be hard or I'm not going to get what I want. You know, I was experiencing anxiety and I still do. Being like, oh no, that is anxiety was helpful for me because it was... oh, okay, that's not just a bad day. That is a form of anxiety. Spiraling and going out of control in your head into all these scenarios and all of a sudden you're convinced that all this bad stuff is going to happen or you've made every wrong choice in your past and if you would have done it differently, you would have ended up somewhere differently. All those kind of mental things that I deal with I definitely view as anxiety and it's hard to get a handle on it. It's interesting that you say that about musicians dealing with this because this is something I've been talking with friends about lately is I want to put everything I have into the music and to the songs and to my work and create something that I feel great about and to do that you have to go so far and put all of your energy and you know bleed for the art and then you're supposed to just let it come out and okay well hands off like now I just detach from all of that and I just am fine with whatever happens I'm easy breezy like I don't even care that's so unrealistic I don't understand and now you're getting an earful of me in a therapy session but like It's just interesting because so much of the music we love and the art we love came from, you know, putting a lot of hours, a lot of work, a lot of tears and sweat and all of the stuff. And you're kind of offering up your heart on a platter for everyone to have an opinion about. I mean, it's hard to talk about this even now. I'm like, oh, wow, wow, hard life. I'm just, I'm getting into the head of a listener being like, oh oh what a tough life you have to make music

SPEAKER_03:

but you know it's it's it is tough that is the misconception that from the outside people say oh well well look at you how sad but it's tough because you know I used to interview also for film and actors and actresses, and oftentimes it almost sounded like they had more of a prepared speech about what the movie's about, their character. But with music, it was different. Music is every part of that is you. The lyrics, the melodies, the stage performance, everything. You are laying yourself bare. And it means everything to you. And that's why I love interviewing musicians because of that. But on the flip side, when things don't work out, especially if you're like a perfectionist, then it hits a little harder, right? It hits harder. It's so personal because you're like, oh, you

SPEAKER_02:

hate me. All of me you hate. So thanks so much. No, it's a hard thing to handle at every level. Maybe you've reached the height of success and you played this arena and you're like, wow, I really did it. I think there's still probably, and if not even more, of a nagging feeling of just like, what now that's just kind of always there even if you're not a musician even if you're a person i just think that's such a human thing with music and making something and putting it out there and wanting it to be received in a certain way and and then if it's not yeah it's hard not to take that personally well

SPEAKER_03:

i'm glad that you don't have any haters

SPEAKER_02:

though

SPEAKER_03:

So our podcast also is about solutions. You talked about therapy, which is really good. But what are some things that you do on a daily basis for self-care, for your mental health?

SPEAKER_02:

I am a very extroverted person. I get a lot of... comfort out of talking to friends, hanging out, going out for a drink, going out for a dinner, hosting a party, having people over. That, to me, I've realized because I was like, yeah, what is self-care for me? Do I want to go get my nails done? Not really. Do I want to get a massage? I mean, sure, but I don't really want to do it. A lot of times what I wanted was to hang out with people and to remember Oh, yeah, my music, work, all that stress is not the end-all be-all in my life. And my life is about the people in it and being there for them and just sort of having real people in front of me in real life and reminding myself of that helps me snap out of that spiral sometimes of what's going to happen? What am I doing? It just helps me get out of my head and into... just enjoying life. So that's a lot of what I do. Or I'll go on a walk. I'll get out of the house. I mean, it's so hard not to talk about pandemic life because that's been our last year and a half, which really threw a wrench into being able to hang out with people. So as you can imagine, it was pretty tough. But going on long walks, I'll listen to a podcast or I'll listen to music or I'll journal. Anything that can get me out of my head is pretty helpful. And a lot of times that means either processing it out loud with someone who I trust or physically moving my body. I don't get a ton of relief from being still. Not that I don't like a massage or a bath, but those are some things I like to try. But I'm also an extroverted person. So if you're an introvert, it's maybe not for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Before the pandemic, I realized how much I got out of the house, sometimes just to escape the thoughts that we could have when we're just by ourself. Exactly. Then you're just, okay. But one thing you mentioned is journaling. And journaling is something that helps you focus and also kind of review your day or whatever it is. Tell me about that. What do you do with your journaling? I mean, I

SPEAKER_02:

go through spurts of journaling. Like, I don't want it to make it sound like I'm so good about it and I do it every single day. I don't. But when I can set aside time to do it and actually make myself do it, it is a nice way to just get whatever the mess is in my head. When I put it out on a page, it's like writing songs, too. it helps get it out of my head. And then it either just lives there or it becomes a song or it helps me sort of get to another place with whatever the worry is I have most of the time. So it is helpful. I mean, it's funny. I've talked to people about journaling and this is just something that I wonder if other people experience. It's like, it's not totally easy to detach from it also being a performance. Like this is actually crazy because you're like, what if someone finds this and reads this? What are they going to say? I can almost censor what I'm writing in a journal sometimes because what if I die and someone picks it up and reads it and what are they going to think? And are they going to judge me? I'm literally going to be dead. Why do I care? I

SPEAKER_03:

just thought That was hilarious. I seriously think that's the big fear, like somebody breaking into your diary. That's what it is. It's a diary. I know. And

SPEAKER_02:

I can eventually get past that fear out of necessity of needing to do it. But yeah, every time I'm able to write it down in some way, even if it's just in my notes app, it's usually helpful in trying to process it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I do think

SPEAKER_02:

that's true.

SPEAKER_03:

It's funny how when something comes out of your head, whether it's your words or words on a piece of paper, that you could stop thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, you can kind of stop thinking about it. I don't know if it makes you stop thinking about it entirely, but at least helps you get to a different place with it. So you're not obsessing over the one detail that you've been playing on loop in your head for however long.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, one thing I wanted to ask you about perfectionism, because this is a theme that's come up with some other musicians. And I get like that myself. Do you feel like you ever put that on other people?

SPEAKER_02:

Gosh, I feel like most of my perfectionism is all directed at me. I feel like I could probably cut other people a ton of slack and be like, oh, it's fine. You're only human. Don't worry about it. And then if I do some sort of misstep, it's like, how could you do that? You're an idiot. All the bad talk is directed at me and all the pressure is put on me. to be perfect. I don't know that I put that on other people unless it's someone really, really close to me. I don't know. That's something to think about for sure. I'll be directed at myself, which is not good.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, you want to treat yourself like your best friend. I'm trying to, but that's really hard. I know because sometimes it's automatic or we've been doing it for so long.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's kind of like that blame thing. Well, as long as there's someone to blame, even if it's myself, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, Caitlin, you have been very open and honest. Is there anything else that you would like to say about mental health or about your music?

SPEAKER_02:

Gosh, I feel excited about the album and just excited that people to get a chance to hopefully know me a little bit more better. deeply than they have before. I'm excited to share these songs and yeah, you know, hopefully by the end of this, I'll have some haters. Maybe I'll become one. I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_03:

Next up, we have part two of our interview with Dr. Adi Jaffe, a psychologist who still speaks at his alma mater of UCLA and is a nationally recognized expert on mental health and addiction. In part one of our interview, Dr. Jaffe shared his own story and techniques from his book, The Abstinence Myth, a new approach for overcoming addiction without shame, judgment, or rules. Now let's hear Dr. Jaffe share more insight into long-lasting recovery.

SPEAKER_00:

All the addiction is is a coping strategy and a symptom of the actual underlying issue. So if you keep addressing addiction, The alcohol or the gambling or the drugs or the sex, it's like playing whack-a-mole. Really, what you're getting at is a symptom. And what we need to do is we need to get honest. Exploration is the first part of what we do. We explore why you're really here. So that can be early developmental issues. It can be physical problems. It can be trauma. I think there are a lot of environmental influences, right? People are in troubling relationships. Explore why you're here. One of our big models at Ignited is F-Shame. I'll use the PG version of it. And the reason I say that is when people understand and connect back to why they're actually here, there's a lot of shame that comes up. I was running a group yesterday and we talked about something called ACEs, which is adverse childhood experiences. People with more than four adverse childhood experiences have been shown to have a two to three time greater likelihood of struggling with severe mental health and addiction issues later on in life. But it makes sense when you think about it. If you were sexually abused or physically abused or lived in a violent environment or were bullied heavily when you were young, I don't doubt why you develop mental health and addiction issues. I understand them. So we went through this in a group, and I had about 25, 30 people in this group. About half the people had 10 or 11 of these experiences in their childhood. And you saw the impact in our group of people realizing the depths of the trauma that they had been through in life. Now, some of these people have been to rehab before. They've tried AA before. They've been to therapy for years. But to have an assessment right there laid out in front of them, we had these really emotional conversations. And the conversation went like this. Okay, now you know. You know that trauma plays a major part in your life. And you have a list of those things. If you want to fix your drinking, you've got to go fix the trauma. And it made so much more sense to a lot of these people than what they had been trying to do for years before, which was they were trying to stop the drinking and then go address the trauma. But what happened is they would stop drinking and then have panic attacks and anxiety, and then they would drink again. Everybody would say, well, why you drank? Because you're an alcoholic. So I think what we're doing right now at Ignited is we're giving people a voice where unlike what happened to me in treatment and in therapy, their lived experience and the reasons why they are suffering come to the forefront so they can deal with those first and foremost. And so what ends up happening is the vast majority of people do our work and they're excited about it. They're happy about it. Why? Because it's giving them freedom before asking them for anything.

SPEAKER_03:

It sounds like the psychotherapy part of your program really is more of the focus, whereas kind of talking about addiction it's like a symptom to the core problem and the core problem being having to deal with issues which can be like you said it could be trauma but it can also be something biological let's say something physical that's happening i know like thyroid conditions can cause mood disorders uh different hormonal changes can cause mood disorders you're talking about labels that call shame And the thing is, is I think because people may not understand about mood disorders or about addiction, that people might say, okay, I'm an addict, but they might be sober for 28 years. And maybe that label is uncomfortable to wear for 28 years. But I do think it's great that you're going... to the core of the problem because that's really where it all starts. And oftentimes doctors don't even take the time to find out what that is. They just want to give you like a quick fix to

SPEAKER_00:

fix the other symptom. So for instance, you were talking about physical aspects. Like I found out that Hashimoto's low thyroid activity, and I was coming to my primary physician who I'd known for years, by the way, and was saying, look, I don't know what's going on, but I wake up and I'm tired all day. Even if I get eight hours of sleep, I'm tired all day. I have no motivation. It took him three years to find this low thyroid function, which is, by the way, really upsetting. You know, I was living with it before I came to him. So four to five years that I'm living, essentially feeling depressed.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, and I totally agree with you because I had hormonal issues. Not one doctor or psychiatrist talked to me about that while I was going through menopause. They knew what my age was, never brought that up, and I said nothing specifically sad or traumatic has gone on in my life currently or even so much in the past. I mean, so I was confused. I had to play detective to do that, and that's it. It's like if you have this thyroid condition, that's causing you depression, all the counseling in the world is not going to make a difference unless you find out what that biological reason is.

SPEAKER_00:

We talk about nutrition. We talk about exercise and movement. We talk about thyroid and other hormonal functions. I think part of the big things we do for people is we help them Stop having to play detective. And we say, look, here are all the things that we've seen create an effect. So like if you struggle with sleep, here are some of the things that may be causing an impact here. Do any of these fit? If they fit, go do that work. But some of it is nutrition. You know, one of the craziest things, and to this day, it makes me laugh, right? You'll go to an AA meeting and like everybody's smoking and everybody's drinking or everybody's vaping. No problem with that, apparently. It's going to disturb people's sleep. It's going to cause them anxiety. It's going to cause adrenal fatigue and make their body feel tired all the time. But that's fine. Just go to another meeting. And so I tell people all the time, I say, look, if you consume a lot of sugar, that's going to cause mood dysregulation for you. So if you're feeling down and sad and distressed and upset, play around with sugar intake. Just because you just stopped alcohol or you dropped alcohol doesn't mean you have to take something else to fix those aspects of your mood, right? And so what you're saying is so right on in terms of the way that we talk to people because we do the same with spirituality and environment. You know how many people I talk to who come to me for alcohol issues? And when we get into it, I find out they've been in an unhappy marriage for 18 years. And they're like, look, I'm an alcoholic. I don't know why I drink. And I go, I know why you drink. You drink because you've been unhappy in your marriage for 18 years. I'm not going to be able to fix your drinking unless we fix your marriage or you leave this relationship. But people don't think about this. So that's not trauma. Being in an unhappy marriage is not traumatic per se, but it causes stress and it causes anxiety. It causes dissociation. It causes massive environmental stress. So All these things, sometimes it's the first time because oftentimes it's the partner who's telling this person to stop drinking. And so all of these aspects are the things we present to our people. So what's beautiful about our groups is you'll have people who... fix their issue through medication and other people who fix it because they got out of a bad relationship and other people who change jobs and other people who are dealing with their trauma. They all did their own work, but what brings them together is that they're focused on the solution instead of what happens in traditional recovery oftentimes, which is constantly focusing on the problem, right? Hey, my name is this, I'm an addict, and let me tell you about how I got here and how bad it was. And for me, it's like, okay, I don't need to dwell on the past. Let's understand that we have a problem and work forward and make ourselves better.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And also finding out what the problem is, is a huge thing. And there's a lot of trial and error. And then also a lot of introspection that sometimes it's hard for people to kind of look at themselves or even talk about what happened in the past that they're still carrying. But I do think that's a really important service because that whole journey, that whole trial and error period to find out what works for your body, what works for your lifestyle, what works for your personality, takes a lot of time. And that's the time that some people can lose their lives.

SPEAKER_00:

100%. And that's why I'm against making people feel like if they had a drink, they failed. Whereas if they were sober, they succeeded. Because we know the vast majority of people will slip up. And while people who've been sober for a very long time tell me, hey, you know, we don't shame people who get into relapse. That's not what happens when you talk to the people who are actually relapsing. They feel very much like they're being shamed. You know, go back to the beginning of the line. Reset your counter to zero. And so what I always say is, look, if we're here to help, then let's put the help first. Let's not create requirements for help. Let's not tell somebody, look, I will only help you if. My argument at Ignite is very simple. And by the way, we're not free like AA, but some of our solutions are like$1.90 a day. We try to make it as cheap as humanly possible for us to be able to offer this help because I totally agree. We have to make it easy for people. and then let them roll in. And if they slip up, say, hey, what happened? Tell us, let's just talk about it. Explore, let's talk about what happened, what went wrong so we can get better and do better next time.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's sort of the principle of, you know, when we learn how to do anything new, we make mistakes. And as we make mistakes, we hopefully learn from them and try to do something different to finally get to the point where you get to be healthy. Now you have the Ignited program, but you call it the Ignited Hero program, which I like because it focuses on the positive things that you're doing and also understanding that there could be slip-ups.

SPEAKER_00:

I'll tell you the reason I call it the Hero program. When I listen to the stories of some of the people who made it to our program, I what I try to point out to them is you already won. Like the fact that you're even here right now and you're working on yourself is already a huge testament to how big of a person you are. The hero part is partially recognizing the internal persona that is within them and that they're just trying to uncover. Because while everybody else has talked down to them their entire life, what I've noticed is a lot of these people are incredibly resilient and full of grit They were born into circumstances or they had experiences or they made erroneous choices in the middle of their life that led them down the wrong path. But they're incredibly strong human beings that have a lot to offer the world.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I'm glad you do that because I also have something. I'm going to show you my T-shirt here. It's called Superhero. We call the people that come on to the show, check your head superheroes, because the thing is something like mood disorders, which is often tied to addiction. These are silent struggles. It's a battle. It's a war that is won by somebody who's still standing there and looking for their answers. But that war is the battle of our lives. And to win that, to even be alive, is the greatest battle of your life.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the thing that sucks so much about stigma and shame, which is why I fight against it so badly, is all those things you mentioned, you understand the external circumstances that are leading to the problem. Like if you have a bad marriage, there's something about the partner, there's something about the interaction. You can see it happening. But when it's in between your ears, you start believing there's something deeply wrong with you. You start thinking of yourself as a broken human being. And I'm sorry if anybody's listening right now and has this sentiment for themselves. You're not a broken human being. You're imperfect, but newsflash, everybody's imperfect. So this is one of the things I love about musicians. But if you really listen to what a lot of the people you're paying attention to are speaking and writing, it's about pain. They're expressing things that most of us are uncomfortable saying out loud, which is why music touches people so deeply, is there is this emotional connection. But now let's... Let's extend that a little bit and say, well, why can't we all become more expressive about the struggles that we go through? Why can't we all become brave and say, you know what? I'm not going to hide. I know that other people around me are struggling right now. And by me pretending to be perfect, by me pretending to have it all together, I'm actually exacerbating the problem. Thankfully, we now live in an age where a lot of people who have celebrity, who have status, who have a voice, a loud and large voice, have expressed something about their own struggles or about the struggles of those around them, because that gets served as a beacon, a connecting sort of anchor.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. I mean, that really is what we're trying to do with the podcast, as well as providing a lot of different solutions like your program, because there's a variety of different mood disorders. There's a variety of different addictions and there's a variety of different therapies and things you can try. But just to keep persistent, to find the one that finally works and to feel good about that, to really congratulate yourself and say, you know, I I'm like a survivor and a thriver.

SPEAKER_00:

So that is what we love about the work that we do is we get to see these people who came in broken and hopeless and they leave or stay with us. A lot of them stay and serve as coaches or guides within our community to new people to say, look, you can have anything you want. It's going to take some work. It's going to require exploration. It's going to be a little uncomfortable sometimes, but you're going to come out on the other side so much happier and so much more complete than you are right now.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, what is the joy that you feel right now, now that you look back from where you were and who you are today? Because I really think that that's important for people to realize that once you get to the other side, that there is a joy and a contentment that is so different from when you were using. So

SPEAKER_00:

I have a practice of gratitude every morning. And the number of things that I'm grateful for and that bring me joy would be hard to count now. I write three to four to five of them down a day. But I have three amazing children. I get to cuddle and read to my three-year-old and listen to her asking for me when she wants me instead of her mom. I get to go snowboarding during the winter with my boys, who they love it. I coach my son's soccer team. I get to have conversations like this and help hundreds and thousands of people every year around addiction and some of the same struggles I had. I get to travel. I get to read amazing books. I get to eat amazing food. I mean, there's so much to enjoy in my day to day. The shift just moved from the old version of me and instead moving towards a new place where I can say to myself two things at the same time. I want to get better. I want to learn more. I want to do more in the world. And I get to completely enjoy the present moment and what's happening to me right now. And that, you know, there's a huge amount of joy and contentment that I get from that every day.

SPEAKER_03:

That's great to hear. Well, Dr. Jaffe, is there anything else that you'd like to say about addiction or mental health or about the Ignited program?

SPEAKER_00:

I'll just say, look, if you're struggling right now, let me just be very clear. There's a solution out there that'll work for you. You may need to look a little harder and you may need to dig a little bit deeper than what everybody else is talking about to find the solution that is right for you. If what I'm talking about sounds anywhere near familiar or something that you'd want to try out, we have the Ignited podcast and that's spelled I-G-N-T-D. And if you go to ignited.com, I-G-N-T-D.com, not only do we give two weeks free of our help And so much in the podcast and so much support in that way. We also have a free seven-day sober experiment that people can take on to uncover some of these underlying reasons. So that is videos where I walk you through every single day of how to get under the hood and understand what it is that I'm talking about. So that's completely free. And in general, just reach out. This is my purpose in life. This is what I do now. And so if there's anything that I can do to help, just know you never lose hope. There's always hope that you will find the set of tools that will help you.

SPEAKER_03:

A big thank you to our musical guest, Caitlin Tarver, and our mental health and addiction expert, Dr. Adi Jaffe. For more information on Caitlin Tarver and to purchase her new album, Subject to Change, visit CaitlinTarver.com. And be sure to catch Caitlin on tour with Johnny Swim starting December 7, 2021. Follow Caitlin on our socials, at Caitlin Tarver and at Caitlin Tarver Online, and stay tuned to listen to a clip of Caitlin's single, Shit Happens, at the end of our episode. For more information on Dr. Adi Jaffe, visit ignited.com, that's I-G-N-T-D dot com, and follow Dr. Jaffe on his socials, at Dr. Adi Jaffe. If you'd like to partner, raise funds, or give feedback on the podcast, email us at checkyourheadpodcast at gmail.com or visit us at checkyourheadpodcast.com to find free and affordable mental help. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.

SPEAKER_01:

Sometimes shit just happens worse than you can imagine.

SPEAKER_03:

Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered with Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley, Earshot Media, and Lemon Tree Studios in Los Angeles. Visit checkyourheadpodcast.com where we have over 100 solutions for mental health. Be our friends on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch us on YouTube and support us with a kind donation on checkyourheadpodcast.com. Check Your Head podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.

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Mari Fong

Host
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Kat Jensen

Producer