Tower of Power (Emilio Castillo) "Reboot": Drug & Sex Addiction Recovery with Tim Ringgold (Music Therapist, Sonic Recovery)

CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast "Reboot" of Tower of Power (Emilio Castillo) & Tim Ringgold (Music Therapist, Sonic Recovery) speaking on Drug & Sex Addiction Recovery for National Counseling Awareness Month, April 2025.

Mari Fong interviews Emilio Castillo (Tower of Power) and Tim Ringgold, MT-BC (Music Therapist & Author of Sonic Recovery: Harness the Power of Music to Stay Sober) on addiction and mental health. Emilio Castillo shares his story of addiction to alcohol, heroin, marijuana, cocaine, eating, and more. 

Hear why Emilio would create drug recipes and party with bandmate “Doc” Kupka, and why singer Rick Stevens went to prison for 36 years. Emilio finds hope in recovery with the 12-steps and finally listening to others. Emilio shares his four words of advice to musicians who desire a long career in music.

Music therapist Tim Ringgold shares his story of sex addiction and finding healing through music therapy. He shares the importance of trying many tools for recovery until you find what's right for you.  Listen to Tower of Power's “Look In My Eyes" from Step Up which dropped March 2020.

“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” * Thank you for subscribing to our podcast and supporting us through Patreon or on checkyourheadpodcast.com. Every dollar is appreciated, every listener is appreciated.  For free or affordable mental help, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast where notable musicians come and share their mental health stories, their experiences, and most importantly, their solutions. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and we're still in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic and racial protests, and with that can come some incredible stress. Our lockdowns have caused loneliness and boredom, which has increased the use of alcohol and drugs, and this can really be a slippery slope. There are so many great musicians who've slid down that slope, such as Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis Presley, Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse, Tom Petty, Whitney Houston and Prince, and they all lost their lives to it. So today we'll be focusing on the addictions that are often tied to mental health issues and how to get healthy help. So whether it's alcohol, cocaine, heroin, pot, sex, eating, or whatever the drug of choice may be, we have an interview today with a musician that admits to taking and doing all of the above and almost lost his life, not just once, but a number of times before finally getting clean and sober. He's the co-founder and band leader of one of the legendary R&B bands of our time, one with an iconic horn section with hits like You're Still a Young Man and So Very Hard to Go, which were always favorites back in the day and today. Our special guest is Emilio Castillo of the band Tower of Power, who will be sharing his story, his solutions, and a new song from their album called Step Up, which dropped in March of 2020. Next, we'll have our expert interview with music therapist, TEDx speaker, and author of the book, Sonic Recovery, Harness the Power of Music to Stay Sober, Tim Ringgold, who'll share his solution of using music as therapy. So let's start with the great Emilio Castillo and his story of addiction, mental health, and recovery.

SPEAKER_01: 2:09

I've hired and fired countless great musicians and musicians And some have quit and left to go on to other things. And I'm proud to say that I have a good relationship with every one of them, even today. All these years later, I stay in touch with all those guys, and they're all great friends. And I have very cherished memories of all those musicians that went in and out. And people ask me that question all the time. What is it that helps you keep it all together? My patented answer these days is God did it, I just showed up. Because the first 20 years of my career, which we'll get into a little bit later, I made every mistake I could possibly make. But God had a different plan for me. And around 1988, I was brought to my knees behind addiction. to drugs and alcohol. And I got sober that year. And then within a year, my partner, Doc, whenever he shares at any recovery meetings, he always likes to say, I'm glad Emilio's here tonight because he made my life a living hell the last year of my drinking and using. So I leaned on him pretty hard after I got sober. And a year later, he got sober. And I think that the two of us, being the main members of the band, getting sober and setting that bar for sobriety and a spiritual path really sort of set the direction of the band for the next 30 years. And along the way, learned a lot of things in sobriety.

SPEAKER_03: 3:54

Well, I'm so glad. Thank you so much for... admitting that and talking about it because so many other musicians and people in general are also, you know, have fallen into addiction for whatever reasons. What do you think led to your addiction?

SPEAKER_01: 4:11

Well, you know, now that I'm on this side of it, I can look back and, you know, I know a lot of the triggers that drove me. But, you know, when I started to drink and use, It literally was like a light switch went off. The very first time I drank and used, I drank everything there was, threw up, passed out, said I'm never going to do it again. And then a year later, Doc actually showed me how to drink rum and Coke and smoke pot. And we started to write songs. And then I learned to control all that and keep it going. But I mean, even from the first time that I got loaded with him, I wanted to do everything I was and, you know, start again the next day and do it all again. And I did that. Literally, I blinked my eyes and 20 years went by. And along the way, different types of drugs and pretty soon hard narcotics came in. And, you know, I can tell you my story. It's a progression for sure, you know. But if I look back on it, From this side, being sober a lot of years, I realized that I had abandonment issues. I remember when I was 14, I fell in love with this beautiful girl. I mean, even my father was like, you did good, son. And then out of the blue, we broke up. It really devastated me. I remember my brother sort of comforting me through that. And then at the time, I think I was... not quite 16 but you know i in my relationships throughout my life afterward whenever i would be in a relationship and it would break up i would have those feelings you know that i got that first time when we broke up and uh when i was 17 just before i turned 18 years old You know, I had the band. Doc was in the band. We were aiming for the Fillmore West. I was serious, you know. My mother says, we're moving to Detroit. You know, my parents had financial issues all their lives. And so one of the main reasons we wound up in the Bay Area was because back in those days, if you had a lot of bills, you could move to the other side of the country and the bills were gone. You know, there were no computers anymore. or nothing like that. So that's what they did. They moved to the Bay Area and they lived there for a few years. And pretty soon they had a lot of bills again. I'm 17 years old. I'm really passionate about this band that I have. And they say, we're moving to Detroit. The next thing I know, I'm an immature 17-year-old. I had never lived on my own. I had never had a job. All I did was play music. And next thing I knew, they were gone. You know, and that's right when I started to drink and use, and I stuffed those feelings down with the alcohol and drugs.

SPEAKER_03: 7:20

A lot of addicts, you know, they say that the drugs kind of help them stuff the emotions that they don't want to deal with, which, you know, sounds like the easy way. But oftentimes, just like you said, you said, well, I lost 10 years of my life, or I lost this. but you eventually have to deal with those emotions because that's really the foundation of of the issue

SPEAKER_01: 7:46

you know i work with a lot of uh recovering uh alcoholics and addicts and sponsored them and i always tell them god will get your attention you know it will happen and that's what happened to me you know uh that's the other thing too you know looking back on it as i say After being sober 32 years, I can look back and one of the things I hear people in meetings say, you know, when I was out there, I was high, I was drunk. I didn't know what I was doing. I always tell them I always knew what I was doing. I always knew what I was doing. I knew I was not living right. And I had a lot of guilt and a lot of shame. And the way you deal with guilt and shame when you're an addict and alcoholic, you drink more and you use more. Just stuck the feelings down once again. And one of the things I used to say, I always believed in God, but that's not true. I didn't believe in God. I believed that he existed. And I knew, and I don't know where I got this from because I didn't have a religious background, but I knew I was going to have to face him and sort of admit all the things I'd done. In other words, you know, Stand in front of the judge. I knew God was a judge. I didn't have that all formulated in my mind, but I knew that, you know, God existed and I was going to have to face him and that I hadn't been living right. I had this shame and this guilt. And so every time that thought came in my mind, it's just like, stuff them feelings down by using drugs or

SPEAKER_03: 9:21

alcohol. Yeah. And what were your drugs of choice? What was...

SPEAKER_01: 9:24

I started on... alcohol and marijuana but what happened for me is I started when I was not quite 18 and at 21 years old I woke up one morning and we had been drinking all night me and Doc writing songs and I woke up I had a really bad stomach ache and I drank some Pepto Bismol and it's getting worse and And pretty soon, I was like, I just took the bottle of Pepto-Bismol. I drank the whole thing. And the next thing I know, I'm on the porch. This is in East Oakland. We lived in the ghetto at the time. And I'm on the front porch, bent over the wall of the porch, throwing up all this pink Pepto-Bismol and screaming. in agony, you know, and Doc got me to Kaiser Hospital in Oakland, and I was in there, and you know, and they're asking you questions, and I just started screaming. I was in excruciating pain because my pancreas was inflamed.

SPEAKER_02: 10:21

Oh, my gosh.

SPEAKER_01: 10:22

Pancreatitis. Uh-huh. You know, they hit me up with some Demerol, and I passed out and came to, you know, like a day later, and they said, you have pancreatitis. And I remember... an older woman coming in my room with a blue book and her saying, son, are you having a problem with your alcohol? And I looked at her like this is a Jehovah Witness or something. I said, you know, get out of my room. I don't want to talk to you. And, you know, I didn't think of myself as having a problem with alcohol because I thought I drank better than all my friends. You know, I could drink a great amount of alcohol and not throw up and pass out, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 11:04

Isn't it funny, though, how that's like a badge of honor? It really shouldn't be, but people are like, you know, I could drink you under the table or I can drink all this alcohol and that makes me more of a strong man or something.

SPEAKER_01: 11:18

Or even women are like, you know, they like to say, you know, I can drink a man under the table and stuff, you know. So, yeah, that's typical alcoholic addict behavior, you know. And so anyway, you know, I got hospitalized for pancreatitis. And they said, you know, you may or may not be an alcoholic, but you have a pancreas that says no to alcohol. And if you continue drinking, you know, it can burst. It can turn black. We have to cut part of it off. You could explode while you're standing on the corner and you'll just die. You know, all these bleak, you know. Right, scary things. Yeah, and... And, you know, I laughed. I was a little upset. But in my mind, I'm justifying, nah, not me. I can do it. And within a week, I was drinking again. And within a month, I was in the hospital again. Really painful, you know. And then the second time, it's like, okay, like, this is real. And I'm trying not to drink. But I only lasted about two weeks. And I'm smoking pot like a fiend, you know. And, yeah. I drank again and within three months I was hospitalized again. After that, I knew I was an alcoholic because I couldn't keep myself from alcohol. And then what I tried to do is I got into all these other drugs, you know, to try, you know, I was doing recipes, you know,

SPEAKER_02: 12:49

like

SPEAKER_01: 12:50

this much cocaine and this much heroin. A little pot for euphoria, you know, maybe a bite of some acid to help me get, you know, creative with songwriting. You know, I'm trying to make a recipe that makes me feel like three and a half drinks and try to sustain it, you know. But I'm doing this so that I drink. Because every time I drink, I go to the hospital, you know. And what happened is it never worked. Sometimes I could go long periods of time. using these different recipes of drugs. But pretty soon, I was addicted to heroin. I was addicted to the needle. You know, I'm shooting coke, speedballs. I'm doing all this stuff. But I always went back to the booze. And every time, I'd go back in the hospital with pancreatitis.

UNKNOWN: 13:40

Oh.

SPEAKER_01: 13:41

Vicious cycle. 17 more years, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 13:44

17 more years

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

of... Yeah, because that was the first time I had been drinking for like three years. I guess 15 more years, 15 more years. But what happened for me is towards the end, it all quit working. I was drinking again all day long, and I'm doing all these drugs, and I had money at the time I was touring with a famous band and my band as well. I was making money, and I'm spending it all on drugs, and I'm not getting high. I can't. Oh, you

SPEAKER_03: 14:15

tapped out.

SPEAKER_01: 14:17

No, no, I'm not passed out.

SPEAKER_03: 14:18

No, no, I was saying the feelings of getting high from drugs or alcohol was not working.

SPEAKER_01: 14:25

Not working. I felt like I was in withdrawals. My eyes were running and my nose was running and chicken skin and chills and sweats constantly. And yet I had drugs, so I wasn't withdrawing. Because I had drugs. It just wasn't working anymore. I had a real problem. And I was hopeless. And I got to the place where I accepted the fact that I couldn't stop myself. I knew I was an addict. I knew I was an alcoholic. And I knew I was going to die before I was 40. And I was 37 years old. And I knew that I was going to die. And I had this feeling I was going to make the papers and hurt everyone I loved. And I just had to accept it. I was hopeless. And what happened is I went into this treatment facility, and I didn't go in there to find the 12 steps or the AA or NA program. I went in there to dry out. And I knew that after 28 days of sleeping and eating, they were going to push me out the door. I knew I was going to drink and use again, and I knew I was going to die. But what happened is I walked into a lecture room, on those 12 steps. I realized that day that there was something they do besides those meetings. I had gone to one meeting. I was like, hang out with these people and not drink and use, just shoot me. But that day I saw this lecture on the 12 steps. I realized there's a way to quit drinking and using and not be miserable. I always thought that my experience taught me that when I didn't drink and use, I was miserable. But I learned that day that there's something they do so that you can stop and not be miserable. And I wanted it. And I never drank and used again. But I did every single thing they suggested. Everything. And I've been sober now 32 years.

SPEAKER_03: 16:18

All right. So at that point, you decided to listen and take their advice. And it was almost like your way out, right? To saying that you could have a happy life. Because you were at a point where... you were almost choosing drugs and choosing that, you know what, I'm going to die.

SPEAKER_01: 16:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 16:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 16:40

I didn't feel I had a choice at all. I was...

SPEAKER_03: 16:43

That it was just going to happen.

SPEAKER_01: 16:44

It was going to happen and I couldn't stop it. And, you know, I just did what they suggested. They told me I was least likely to succeed. That's what they said in the facility. Yeah. They said, you guys, intravenous users, you know, the chances of your getting sober and staying sober are nil. And I felt like a death sentence had been proclaimed, you know. But, you know, I just, I got a sponsor. I started to work those steps. I read the book. I started to pray. I did everything that they suggested. And it's worked all these years.

SPEAKER_03: 17:21

Now, during this whole time, I mean, it was a long period of time that you were taking drugs. Who were the people that were trying to help you? I mean, because I'm sure there were people, family, friends, maybe even your band members that were saying, you know, did anyone really sit down and say, look, you need help?

SPEAKER_01: 17:40

You know, back then there wasn't a lot of interventions and stuff like that. But, you know, I remember when I was really strung out on heroin and living in the Berkeley Hills, and my wife at the time also was really strung out, you know, and my dad came over. And we were passed out in the bed sleeping, you know, we used to sleep in late. Typical drug addict behavior, you know. And there was a banging on the door and I looked out the window and I saw it was my dad. You know, you can't say no to dad, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 18:12

You

SPEAKER_01: 18:13

will. And he confronted me, you know, and he said, what are you going to do? And I said, well, I'm going to stop. You know, what else am I going to say? You know, but I couldn't, you know. And I remember years later him telling me that, you know, he felt like it was his fault that he allowed me to become so strung out and everything. I said, dad, there was nothing in heaven and earth that was gonna keep me from doing what I was doing. I had to go until I was done, you know? And you know, at the time, you know, we bottomed out, left there, went to LA, we did what they call it, just kind of changed seats in the Titanic.

SPEAKER_03: 18:52

There was another band member, Rick Stevens.

SPEAKER_01: 18:55

who also got into drugs and he sang, you know, some of the classics.

SPEAKER_03: 19:00

You're Still a Young Man and he also had a drug addiction and unfortunately ended up going to prison. He

SPEAKER_01: 19:13

killed either three or four people in a drug-induced... you know, rage, over drug deals, you know. This was four years after he left the band.

SPEAKER_02: 19:25

Yeah. You

SPEAKER_01: 19:25

know, it looked good in the press to say Tower of Power, so we got all the credit for it. But, you know, he did 37 years in prison, and he had more than one lifetime sentence. He was not supposed to get out.

SPEAKER_03: 19:40

Yeah. But

SPEAKER_01: 19:40

he found the Lord in prison. and he he truly did uh become a reborn christian and i remember when he got out he called me and i was concerned you know like you hear a lot about prisoners coming to jesus and you know and is it real you know and but he uh he came out and i told him i said rick you know i want to give you the benefit of the doubt uh but i need you to know something you know this is your opportunity to help a lot of young people not make the mistakes that you make. And I really hope you do that. And he's like, you know, I'm going to do my best, man. And we let him sit in with us several times and we became great friends. He used to call me, we pray together, you know, and then, you know, he helped a lot of people when he got out of prison, you know, and then he got a little cancer and it's in the marrow of his bones and he passed a couple years ago.

UNKNOWN: 20:36

But

SPEAKER_01: 20:36

Yeah, it was a great success story of what the Lord can do for you.

SPEAKER_03: 20:40

Well, you know, I saw the YouTube videos of when he came on stage, I think at Yoshi's in Oakland. And I thought that was so wonderful that you reconnected and he was able to sing this song that, you know, his voice was still amazing. And you guys all sounded fantastic. It was a very special moment.

SPEAKER_02: 21:04

The crowd loved it.

SPEAKER_03: 21:06

Yeah, and I think it's really important to note that he spent 36 years in prison, from what I read, but he found a purpose in prison, you know, to be very religious and talk with other prisoners. And he also sang. And, you know, one thing they say as far as like, you know, when you feel really down and out, is to find the purpose, you know, to find the purpose behind what you're doing and having that, I guess, greater good be what keeps you going. So it was really, like you said, a success story. It was really a wonderful thing that he was able to find that purpose and then also continue that after he got out.

SPEAKER_01: 22:00

Oh, it was a beautiful ending to a tragic story is what it was. You know, I mean... You know, when he went into jail, just before, you know, when he was with us, he was a fabulous performer. And he was a great guy. When he first came in the band, you know, he wasn't doing a lot of drugs because he wasn't officially in. We had Rufus Miller was our singer. And he was filling in for Rufus, who also had drug problems. But he had had a nodes operation, Rufus did. And we needed, back then, we were doing five sets a night. So Rick was filling in, he was doing a great job and he wanted the job. So he's doing everything right. But then as soon as Rufus went off the deep end and we let him go and Rick became the main guy, then, you know, money came in and, you know, uh, the ego kicked in and pride. And, uh, next thing we knew his attitude was really dark, you know, and, uh, And, you know, I didn't know a lot about hard narcotics at that point. I was still early in my addiction. I didn't get into hard narcotics until after he left the band. But, you know, I realized that, you know, he was strung out. And, you know, I fired him like two or three times. But we loved him. You know, we'd bring him back. But finally one day he couldn't, or he wouldn't rather, come in to sing all the songs on the Tarapara. One with what is hip. That album was for him, you know. And I already knew Lenny Williams. And because I had let Rick go a few times, I had asked Lenny to come in. But he knew us. We were friends. And he said, you know, he didn't want to get in between that. He liked us both. But finally I called him. I said, look, this guy, we're not going to deal with him. We hope you'll come in. And he finally did. And that's when Rick really got deep in his addiction. He was with another band for a while. I forget their name. You know, it was like four years, and then he went on that rampage. I was on the East Coast. It had broke national news. And I called my dad. I go, Dad, how bad is it? He goes, it's bad, son. You're on every news program there is. And I'll never forget. He said to me, just remember this, son. No publicity is bad publicity.

UNKNOWN: 24:24

Oh, my gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 24:24

You know, that must have been a tough time for the band. Tough for you also to see your friend kind of go down this path.

SPEAKER_01: 24:31

Yeah, I mean, it was sad to see. But, you know, as I said, we were already all sort of in our addictions as well. We weren't doing that type of thing. But, you know, we were definitely caught up in the addiction.

SPEAKER_03: 24:44

When you were in rehab and, you know, it got to the point where you had to face your issues and emotions and all that. You were talking about abandonment issues. How was that for you to kind of like really dig deep and find out why you were in the place that you were in?

SPEAKER_01: 25:02

To be real honest, you know, I don't think I realized my abandonment issues until I was sober over 20 years.

SPEAKER_03: 25:09

Really?

SPEAKER_01: 25:10

No, I didn't even deal with them in treatment. In treatment, I did my inventory process. And I just basically, I just barfed up all the stuff I was ashamed of, you know. things that I had done that I was ashamed of. There were sexual situations and ethical situations and, you know, greed and envy and resentment. And I wrote all that stuff down, and I didn't have to, like, scratch my head and go, what should I put? It was all there, boiling for 20 years. It just came out. I was on a flight to Korea, a nine-hour flight, And I just wrote it all out in like two and a half hours and went back and shared it with my sponsor. And he pointed out all these different character defects that were running like a thread through my life. And, you know, when I was in my addiction, I remember just, you know, being baffled. You know, they say alcoholism, you know, it's cunning, baffling, and powerful. I remember... The last time I was hospitalized for pancreatitis in Santa Monica, my wife came in, brought my two little girls, and my little girl looked at me and she said, Daddy, why are you in here? And I had no answer. I had no idea why I couldn't stop myself. I knew it was killing me. I knew every time I drank, I'd get pancreatitis and the pain was excruciating. I knew it was wrong. I knew I had to stop. I knew all these things, but I couldn't. So I used to have this incredible shame and guilt, like, Why can't I, you know, my brother at the time, you know, he had a son and, you know, they'd throw them all in the van and go to Disneyland. They lived like normal people. And I used to wonder, why can't I, you know, why? And what happened for me is I found out that, you know, I have alcoholism. And, you know, they say ism, I-S-M, I-self-ism. Me. It's all about self-centeredness, self-pity, self-exaltation, self-righteousness, self-deprecation. And I never knew that. So all those years when I was going, why, why, why? I had no idea. But once I did the steps with a sponsor and wrote all that stuff out and he pointed out my defects of character and became willing to give that stuff up and give it away to a power greater than myself. I started to realize, oh, this is why. These are the things in your life that are objectionable, that we need to cast aside and replace with things that are more positive. It's a process. It takes a long time. But things immediately started to get better. And they've continued to progressively get better for over three decades.

SPEAKER_03: 28:11

So that was the... positive process for you or was there a difficult part that was really uncomfortable for you because you know so many people are going through that and they fear rehab or they don't want to go but it's good to talk about like the positive changes in your life and how it made you feel you know all of these great steps forward

SPEAKER_01: 28:36

like like i said before you know god will get your attention the way he gets your attention is he he he brings you to the place where there's nothing that you want in your life more than to just stop living that way i just want to stop and it was like i didn't care what i had to do you know i mean years before that When I wasn't quite as bad as I was towards the end, I just wanted to figure out a way to get clean and maintain a normal drug use. But by the end, there wasn't nothing about that. I wanted it out of my life. It was not working. I was spending all my money on it. It was hurting everyone I loved and my career was going down the drain and I knew I was going to die. So I was just like, tell me somebody, tell me what to do, please. I'll do anything. And I think that's very important for any alcoholic or addict that is endeavoring to get clean is that, you know, you have to have that willingness. Like you want it more than anything. I got to the place where I wanted to not use alcohol. more than I wanted to use. I had a complete mind switch. And I take no credit for that. It wasn't like one day I woke up and became a good person. That wasn't the deal at all. It wasn't a matter of being a good or a bad person. I have alcoholism. I'm an addict. And what happened is God, by his grace, decided to get my attention, cause a change in my thinking and eventually come into my life in a powerful way. That also was a process. It wasn't like, oh, I believe in Jesus. It wasn't like that. For me, for one, I didn't want to hear about God. I did not. But one of the things about that 12-step program, they don't shove it down your throat. They allow you to find your way a power greater than yourself what those people in la told me and they got great recovery in la i'm so grateful i got sober there they told me look for the people that have what you want and try their god on for signs and you know i was always good i like my guys used to follow me around because i could always find the drugs i was like a divining rod for drugs you know and uh I used that same mentality, that addict mentality in the rooms. I could tell who had the good recovery. And they were all praying, and they were praying to God with a capital G. And I was like, I'm doing that. There are people... younger than me, you know, that were in the treatment facility. And they were like, well, I believe in the cosmos. And I believe in this tree that I really are. I believe in the ocean, you know. And I was like, no, that ain't going to help me. I need some supernatural, powerful being, you know. And I couldn't put into words what that was at the time. But I knew it wasn't going to be nature. It was going to be God with a capital G. And I tried to emphasize that it worked, and I've been doing it ever since.

SPEAKER_03: 31:51

So why do you think God put you through this? Because, I mean, you were at the brink of losing your life.

SPEAKER_01: 32:00

I don't look at it as God put me through it. God gave me over to my will. God will try to get your attention here and there. And if you keep on saying, no, no, I want to do it my way, eventually he goes, I'm going to let you have it your way. And then you...

SPEAKER_03: 32:20

Turn it down, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 32:22

And then, okay, I've had my way. I don't want to do it my way no more. I'll do whatever you say. And at first, it's just like, somebody tell me. But eventually it became, no. It's just power greater than myself.

SPEAKER_03: 32:36

Now, since then, since you've turned your life around, I'm sure you've come across people in your own band, people that you've worked with, that are going through addictions or maybe they need help i mean how have you used your experience to help other people in the industry i

SPEAKER_01: 32:56

find the most effective way to uh make sure that when someone has a problem they'll feel good about coming to you is never to ever call them on their stuff i i live as an example in their presence i'm sober in their presence it's not that i don't talk about my sobriety because i talk about it just like i talk about you know i had some good breakfast this morning or whatever i talk like a normal person but i'm never like you know what man you need to check this out or you know that stuff alcoholics and addicts they don't want to hear that but if you're just humble if you just live your life sober in the sight of men, when the time comes that those men may need some help, they will come to you. And so that's what I do. I lead by example, not by preaching. That's not going to work.

SPEAKER_03: 33:50

That's a really good thing to say. People have to come to their own conclusion. And, you know, everyone has a turning point when they let go and they finally listen to others that may have gone the same road. And if you know, change their lives.

SPEAKER_01: 34:08

You know, I've had to approach people about their drinking and using at different times, but I have a maxim that I go by, which my sponsor taught me. He said, you know, if the way they're living is affecting your business, then it's not only your right, but your duty to let them know that they can't continue to do that. And so, for instance, you know, if somebody is getting high or getting drunk and they don't show up for a gig you know then as the leader of the band it's my job to say you know what you can't do that here you can drink and use on your own time do whatever you need to do but you can't miss gigs you can't affect my business like this and what i generally do is i say you know look that stuff has had its way with us and so around here they're not going to allow it i go i'm just I'm just a leader. I'm not like the dictator. They're going to make me fire you if you don't look at this. And I try to put it in that respect, like, allow me to help you if you will, but one thing you cannot do, you can't miss the gig, and you can't affect my business with your addiction.

SPEAKER_03: 35:22

Now, when you were going through the abandonment issues, What was it that helped you? Was it counseling or a type of therapy? Or was it basically just saying the words and admitting to it? Or what is it that really helped you kind of heal that part?

SPEAKER_01: 35:43

Kind of all the above, you know. Sobriety and recovery from addiction is a constant growing thing in your life. If you're really committed to staying sober, you know, it's got to be growing because alcoholism is growing every day. My addiction is growing every day. So I have to make sure my recovery is also growing. So as I'm in that process, I'm constantly inventorying myself. So I do what's called a spot check inventory. During the day, my mouth gets loose or my attitude gets dark for a moment. I'll just have a little talk with God for a second and say, you know what? God, help me get back. One of the things I tell my guys, you can start your day over anytime you want. And you can start it over as many times as you want. You know, and I do that all the time. But the other thing is, you know, every night I do a step 10. I look at my day, you know, what did I do that I could have done better? And so I'm always looking at myself as my point. And I started to notice things about myself and I did some therapy. I had some, therapy years ago when i was divorced from my first wife and you know a couple years ago i was divorced again and you know that brought up some issues for me these are relationship issues and i need to look at them so i went they got some professional help of two kinds christian biblical professional help and also a therapist and uh in going to therapy you know they always want to know you know, your past. I'm sorry. I'm going through a lot of this stuff that I'm telling you. And it came up about that first girl who broke my heart and also about my parents leaving me at the age of 17. And I sort of, I had the, like, it was like a movie. I was talking through it. And I was standing in front of my My sister-in-law's house, my brother and his girlfriend, they weren't married yet, but she was like a sister to me. And we were saying goodbye to my parents, and my little brother was in the back seat. And he was like eight or nine years old. And we were his whole world, me and my brother Jack. And they're moving to Detroit from the Bay Area. That's a long way, you know. And as they're driving away, you know, we're all crying and I see my little brother crying. And as I'm talking through this with the therapist, you know, the feelings are just like, ah, just, you know, it's like, cause I had stuffed them down for so many years, you know? And then even like, I dealt with a little bit, you know, years ago, my first divorce, but then even all those 25 years later, I dealt with it again. And, you know, it's like, I realized, you know what, I stuffed it down more again. And then I really started to look at that, and I really, I sort of put a name to it, as it were, you know. I said, all right, you know what, I have abandonment issues, I do. And I started to look at all my relationships, you know, and I just realized, and that was very helpful to me, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 39:03

Yeah, it's funny how a painful trauma can really affect your relationships, and it's almost like, those emotions need attention and the respect to really be recognized. And I think maybe once they're recognized and really looked at, that maybe that's when the healing process begins. Giving that experience the respect and really just looking at it and thinking about how badly it hurt you. I

SPEAKER_01: 39:37

think it's an integral healing. that's needed there. And you're right. It doesn't begin until you actually unearth it, as it were. And that means let those feelings up. And I tell you, I remember a few times going through that, probably three or four times, talking through that and just crying. It was like I had stuffed it down for so many years. And I was just like, ah, I came out, you know. I remember leaving the therapist's office and just being tired, you know, like really crying hard and your emotions are just, you know, emerging so profoundly, you know. But, you know, it was helpful, you know. And now I can see certain behaviors that are objectionable to me and I can say, you know what, that is related to this abandonment issue and you need to, You know, make amends, and you need to change that behavior and right the wrong. And, you know, it helps. Helps you to live a life that's more pleasing in God's sight.

SPEAKER_03: 40:50

Well, I do think that emotions are the color of life. And all the emotion that you put in your music is, you know, what makes people feel so good. And even, I'm sure, when you cried over that abandonment, that... there's something about it that's so freeing, right? It's almost like letting it out to the world and letting it go. And it's just a great example of really the beauty of emotions and how important it is to really respect them and that there's strength in emotion. Because I do think sometimes, especially with men, that they do have a tendency to stuff down emotion That is hurtful or where you should be crying. That's very painful and that's a natural reaction to something that is painful.

SPEAKER_01: 41:45

And what happens when you do that is it becomes like a regular thing. And so pretty soon you're like this stoic, hard person. And I see that in myself a lot. And over the years, many people have told me, like I used to work in Sausalito at this place called Record Plant. I did a lot of records there. And, you know, I was friends with everybody there. I loved everybody that worked there. And I remember one time I was at a Christmas party and And a couple of the girls were talking to me and they were saying, you know, the first two years I know you, I thought you hated me, you know? And I was like, what? Why would you think that? You know? And she goes, because you'd be walking down the hall and like your face, you know? And I, I tell people often when I share my story that I have an F you face, you know? And I, my dad was the same way. I did. I think I would get that a lot from him. And I've, figured out ways to use that to my advantage over the years but it's also been very disadvantageous in many ways you know and i think that comes from you know like you're stuffing emotion you're stuffing emotion you stand pretty soon you become this stoic hard person you know and uh and i don't know that that can ever be completely undone it becomes such a part of your makeup you know but it's just so helpful to acknowledge it and to be on a quest to deal with it regularly. It doesn't mean it goes away. You can put it in check and you can just acknowledge, all right, I got the F you face on and there's no reason for that. Smile, man, and bring some joy into this person's life before you scare them away. Well,

SPEAKER_03: 43:30

you seem like a very joyous, very easily sociable person. I

SPEAKER_01: 43:36

can be. I got a lot of different sides to me, but we all do.

SPEAKER_03: 43:41

Well, one of the things I was listening to the new album, Step Up, and I love the theme behind it because it's like step up, don't give up, which is kind of like the whole idea behind the podcast too. It's, you know, telling your story, but encouraging people to persist and find the solution, whatever that solution may be, but just to keep trying and And once you do find what fits for you, whether it's for addiction or mental health or mood disorder, that really can lead to such a happy, healthy life. And that is what feels good, right? That natural high. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:22

They used to have a phrase in the recovery community in Los Angeles. really popular, you know, they would always say, you know, get in the solution, you

SPEAKER_02: 44:31

know,

SPEAKER_01: 44:32

stay in the solution. You know, when I, when I share, I like to share the solution, you know, I mean, you know, I was new in recovery and I was like, you know, I just, I didn't know what the solution was, you know, learning, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 44:44

Well, you are a survivor and, uh, thank you so much for sharing your story. I mean, 52 years, um, in, in tower of power, uh, What are some closing words of wisdom for a musician who wants to have a long, successful career in music?

SPEAKER_01: 45:04

There's four words. I can boil it down to four words. Live right. Feel right. And that's it. If you're living the right way, you're going to feel good. And if you're not, you're not going to be feeling good. So that's the short story. I will say for people that are early in recovery, we have addictive personalities. And so what happened for me was I started looking for all these other avenues to act out addictively. So one of the first one was food. You know, and in my first year of sobriety, I gained like 100 pounds, you know, and I dealt with the food issue for years. You know, I'm an overeater. I went to Overeaters Anonymous and did that for a while. But, you know, it's an issue. And that's just your addiction is trying to find another way, another outlet. You know, for a while it was sex. You know, I was, you know, having all these little, know relationships on the road that you know i knew they weren't right and i didn't feel good about them and i talked with my sponsor about them and they weren't going to fix me and eventually i got that in order but you know your addiction will find all these different ways you know it could be shopping it could be working out it could be positive addicted to like i'm eating healthy and i'm working out i mean Whatever I do, I do to the max. So that's one thing I'll say about from a mental health aspect. If you're early in addiction, the thing to seek is balance. And that's an elusive thing. It takes a lot of work. But we should have moderation and balance in our lives.

SPEAKER_03: 46:54

Next up, we have music therapist and author of the book Sonic Recovery, Harness the Power of Music to Stay Sober, and host of his own podcast called Reduce Your Stress with Tim Ringgold. Tim shares a solution of using music as therapy in addiction recovery, and we start with Tim actually sharing his own story of addiction.

SPEAKER_00: 47:15

I love his story because I got sober in 12 Steps as well. And one of my friends, Tommy Rosen, one of the things he says is, I wouldn't want to imagine a world without the 12 Steps. Where people are when they find the 12 Steps is not exactly at the top of their game. And there's that moment where you finally, like he said, he used the phrase, was brought to his knees in I was brought to my knees. I know what that's like. It's humbling. And then you're finally willing. And you're like, oh, oh, I'm actually going to go to a meeting. Oh, God, how did it come to this? And I remember Pat Carnes, who's an expert on sex addiction. That's what I got sober from. He said, you know, the average guy from the moment he's aware that he should go to a 12-step meeting

SPEAKER_03: 48:06

is

SPEAKER_00: 48:08

like two years before between the awareness and the action.

SPEAKER_03: 48:11

One thing I read in your book, Sonic History, was that you did come to a point where you were at the edge of a bridge. And you called somebody, thankfully, and that person helped you off.

SPEAKER_00: 48:32

Literally walked me off the bridge.

SPEAKER_03: 48:33

Yeah. Now, what mindset were you at the time? I mean, what were you... I

SPEAKER_00: 48:40

could tell you exactly. I mean, I can see it. I

SPEAKER_03: 48:43

really do want to start with your addiction because that's really the foundation of everything, right?

SPEAKER_00: 48:47

Yeah, and I'm an open book on it. So I could tell you exactly where I was. I was in Jacksonville, Florida. I know exactly where I was walking, what side of the bridge, everything that had just happened. I had just screwed up with a female colleague of mine. And in my head, as I was walking back to my hotel, which was on the other side of the river, In my head, the way that it was going to go was she was going to disclose and tell everybody. I had just been like, not awarded, but recognized for my TED Talk at that same conference that morning. So I'm at the pinnacle of my career that morning,

SPEAKER_02: 49:25

which

SPEAKER_00: 49:26

seems to be when I tend to act out is when things are actually going really well for me. It's almost like a self-sabotage thing. And in my head, I only see one future. And the future is I'm going to get kicked out of my field. There is just this, I just ruined my career. And this is going to ruin my marriage. And as my brain is in this feedback loop of terror, and stress and emotional pain from all this anxiety of this imagined future, because you know how that is. We're all mind readers and we're all future fortune tellers. We know how it's going to go. I only saw one outcome, which was it was all going to blow up. And as I'm walking over the bridge, I look down at the water, Mari, and the water just says, I can make it all go away. I can make it all go away right now. If you want this pain to end, I could just, all you have to do is come to me. And it felt like the force of gravity was like pulling me into the river from the bridge. And I got scared because I was like, I thought about it and I entertained it. And I was like, that would be really easy. And this could all end. and you know the stressed brain is not a rational brain the amygdala is at is at work it's not considering future consequences all it wants to do is self-soothe in the moment and so i saw that as an easy way that was the fastest way to self-soothe

SPEAKER_02: 51:07

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 51:08

and I luckily, I grabbed my phone and I have this thing about, I call it my five faves, which is, you know, you have that, like those, your, your favorites on your phone. And I just looked at the list and it was like, mom, can't call mom, wife, can't call wife, sponsor, voicemail. And then my recovery buddy, Joe, and he picked up and he started to put in my ear alternate futures that he saw and he's the one who just kind of calmed my nerves. But really what it was, was it was that connection between me and him in that moment of like pain. The connection is what kept me going. And I think that's one of the most important things in a recovery journey is it's all about reconnection and connection is how we, that's how we do life. And that was like, it's like medicine. Connection is like social, spiritual medicine.

SPEAKER_03: 52:05

It is, and it's amazing how many musicians start writing music, playing music, when they're in the depths of depression or anxiety or going through a really challenging, hard time. They turn to music to soothe themselves and also to distract their mind. I mean, all the wonderful feeling things that music brings. And once you pour that emotion into your music, it just does connect. to all the fans, the audience, and when people can feel like, oh wow, somebody understands what I'm going through right now, it's that feeling of, oh my gosh, I'm not alone anymore. The

SPEAKER_00: 52:47

number one existential question we all have is, am I alone? And it's terrifying. And when it's answered, and with the answer no, it's one of the most deeply soothing, satisfying, and comforting experiences we have. as mammals because we're social animals so we by design do life in groups in connection that's all the point that's the whole plan we're not like bears who go off and do their own thing once we're 18 not humans no humans live in groups humans depend on each other the whole way so that's that is what it's all about

SPEAKER_03: 53:23

okay so music therapy let's just break that down to the basics okay what How would you describe music therapy?

SPEAKER_00: 53:36

Short answer. So it's the targeted use of music to affect change in another individual. And the change really isn't about becoming a better musician or learning how. It's not educational, right? It's not about performance. It's really about they want to get better in some area of their life and the music's going to facilitate that.

SPEAKER_03: 53:56

So what are some of the exercises or homework that you would do that you maybe give your clients as a music therapist? Is that how it works? Or does it kind of happen within your interaction with them?

SPEAKER_00: 54:10

Yeah, so music therapy, you have three players involved in music therapy. You've got a client or a group of clients. You've got a music therapist. And then the music therapist is using... the whole of music and its elements as like a toolkit. And so we're pulling out the different elements of music and using them in a session, therapy session, with the clients to achieve very specific goals. So let's talk about it in the context of mental health. Okay. So I work with teens and adults who are struggling with anxiety, depression, self-harm, addiction. And for me, addiction is just an umbrella. It's within mental health. It's not a co-occurring. It's not a separate thing. You don't have addiction without some sort of mental health issue because addiction isn't a problem. It's a solution to a problem. It's just a poor solution because the part of the brain that triggers it's not too bright. So when I'm working with patients and let's say there's kind of five things we want patients to be able to do to help them with their mental health. And if you spell them out, they spell the word sober. So it's a nice little easy mnemonic phrase. So we want patients to be able to stay present. Why? Because if you're tripping out over the future or you're ruminating over the past, you have no control over the future or past and the brain finds that stressful. So we don't like to be in places where we don't have any control. So we want our thoughts and our attention in the present moment because that's where we can move our body. So when you make music, Music takes place in the present moment. It's time-based. So we're going to engage in live music making. And it might look like improvisation with rhythmic instruments. So oftentimes I'll bring West African and Central and South American drums and percussion into a room. And I'll bring a bass drum and I'll introduce the instruments. They're super easy to play. And then I'll lay down a steady heartbeat and I'll say, just connect the instrument to the beat. It's your only job. explore the sounds, connect to the beat. And as they explore the sounds and the instruments, and then they connect the sounds to the beat, what they find is some instruments they connect with more than others. So they're trying to connect the instrument to the beat and they try, let's say three, and I tell them, you got to try at least three different instruments. So I'll try this one, I'll try this one, I'll try this one, and I'll connect the instrument to the beat. but they don't necessarily feel connected to that instrument. But usually there's one that they feel the most connected out of the three. And so they're now connected to the instrument. The instrument's connected to the beat. Well, who's playing the beat? Me. So now they're connected to me. Who else are they now connected to? They're connected to everybody in the room because everybody else is also busy trying to connect with the beat. And what they have their eye on is just trying to connect their instrument to the beat. But what's really happening therapeutically is without words, I'm creating a space of psychological safety, connection, and presence where we're all in the present moment connecting together to something outside of ourselves. And when that happens, they don't recognize that, wow, like A, I'm present, B, I'm connected. C, I'm moving energy through my body and I'm moving energy out of my body and emotions are just energy in motion. So they're just moving emotion out of their body. Didn't even notice that. They're not thinking about the problems in the future or the past. So they're escaping the things that are stressing them out. All of these things are happening in real time. And the piece de resistance is when we engage in music making as human beings, our brains love it and our brains release which is the feeling of being connected and it releases dopamine, which is the pleasure chemical when we eat chocolate or have sex. So we have this wonderful pleasure response in the brain and this feeling of being present and connected. And yet all we're just focusing on is a simple instruction, which is take these claves and connect them to the drum. And then when we wrap it up, we'll say, all right, what instrument did you connect with the most? And everybody has one.

SPEAKER_02: 58:34

And

SPEAKER_00: 58:35

then we just look at, the tools of recovery. And we say, listen, that's a metaphor for recovery. There are all kinds of tools in recovery, but you're not going to connect with all of them equally.

SPEAKER_03: 58:48

You know, I think that's really important to point out that, of course, connection is really important, but the fact that it's not just people that we connect with, but we can connect to different energies, whether that is a musical instrument or a sport or, you know, Even when you have an addiction, there are certain drugs or certain things that you gravitate to. And one thing with when you have a mood disorder, you can feel disconnected. I mean, that can be part of the condition. So just any kind of connection is almost like a bridge to healing. It's almost like the light at the end of the tunnel. So, you know, whether it's, like you said, music therapy or an online support group or, you know, face-to-face interaction with a therapist, that's really important.

SPEAKER_00: 59:47

Totally. And, you know, there's like, I love the, I like to hang out with people who are in the many paths philosophy club of recovery because there's a reason why the 12 steps exist and smart recovery exists is And Celebrate Recovery exists, which is like the polar opposite of Smart Recovery. There is a place for all of them because we are not all wired identically. We are wired similarly, but not identically. What you connect with isn't as important as the fact that you're connecting. But one of the things as musicians that playing allows us to do is move a lot of emotion out of ourselves without having to use words. And this is really important for guys particularly because words to express emotions. One, we live in a culture where we're reinforced not to, and this idea of being, you know, macho and stoic and strong, um, really doesn't serve somebody in addiction. This is not the time for that. We want to be able to open up and express, which just means to squeeze out. We want to squeeze out this energy, get it out of our body. But language becomes a tollbooth because you got to have the right words. Otherwise you're like, and then you got to have the right listener, which can be challenging because A, you don't want to go find a therapist. I don't know any guy who has any interest in pursuing a therapist. I'm a music therapist. I have no interest in like what it would take to go find a therapist. Forget it. That's heavy lifting. I don't want to do it. Just the logistics of it. I don't want to do much less. Oh God, is this person, are we going to connect?

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:30

It takes time to find the right person. And that also is going to be challenging. That's why like part of the podcast, one of the key things is be persistent.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:41

I need the help that you need because there's, Times where you try things and it's like, what is this? This is not for me. Yeah, totally. You've got to pick through and try so many different things until you find what connects with you, whether it's a therapist or medication or, you know. Even

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:00

a home group. You'll have guys finally go to a meeting and they didn't like the personalities in the room or they didn't like the style of the meeting. And I'm like, go to six different meetings before you make up your mind because every meeting is its own subculture.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:14

One thing about songwriting and creating music, not only is music nonjudgmental, but there is something really amazing if you do get with the right person to play with.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:30

Yes. Whether you play music with them or you sing with them.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:34

I mean, I've played piano and I've taken vocal lessons and I have gotten a joy that is indescribable, such a high when you connect with somebody musically. Yes. You know? Yes. Oh, yeah. And that is really exciting and that can kind of like wake up your whole body and mind. The other thing I find is that, you know, And I think this is, especially with men, but it's okay to express that in a song. It's okay to write lyrics as if it were a diary and spill all of that on stage. And people love that, right? Because it's so honest and truthful and vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:22

Yeah, that's a really good insight.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:23

Yeah, and they're not judged for it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:25

Nope. Yeah, it totally is. It's a socially acceptable way to be vulnerable, to talk about your feelings, and just to lift the performance anxiety from anybody. You don't ever have to perform your music on stage for it to help you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:45

A big thank you to our featured guest, Amelia Castillo of Tower of Power, and our expert, Tim Ringgold. Pick up Tower of Power's new album, Step Up, and catch them live on September 6th at Ventura County Fairgrounds for their Concerts in Your Car series. For more information, go to towerofpower.com. And for more information on Tim Ringgold, go to timringgold.com. We'll close the episode with a clip of Tower of Power's new single called Look in My Eyes. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:23

I know that you want me

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:59

Check Your Head is kindly supported by DBSA San Gabriel Valley, Lemon Tree Studios in Los Angeles, Blue Oak Podcasting, and other kind donors and sponsors. Visit CheckYourHeadPodcast.com where you'll find more resources for mental health. Subscribe$2 to our podcast on our Patreon page and be our friends on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Check Your Head Podcast is a 501c3 sponsored nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you so much for listening.