While She Sleeps (Sean Long) "Reboot": Panic Disorder & Agoraphobia Recovery with Therapist Andrea Vassilev (DBSA)

CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast "Reboot" of While She Sleeps (Sean Long) & Therapist Andrea Vassilev (DBSA) speaking on Panic Attacks & Agoraphobia Recovery for Mental Health Awareness Month, May 2025.

Mari Fong interviews guitarist Sean Long of While She Sleeps and Andrea Vassilev of DBSA, San Gabriel Valley. Sean Long share his story and solutions for recovery for anxiety, panic attacks, panic disorder and agoraphobia. While She Sleeps’s single “Nervous” off their new album Sleeps Society is based on Sean’s mental health journey and admits the song is the most important one he’s ever written. 

Andrea Vassilev of DBSA San Gabriel Valley explains panic disorder and how it can easily escalate to agoraphobia if untreated. She shares her thoughts on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and medication as treatment for panic disorder.  

“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.”
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts come and share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians, and today I'm thrilled to interview an amazing guitarist from the metalcore band While She Sleeps, whose latest single, Nervous, is based on guitarist Sean Long's own mental health journey and calls it the most important song he's ever written. Sean's journey includes living with anxiety, which also includes panic attacks, panic disorder, and agoraphobia. While She Sleeps' single, Nervous, is off their fifth album called Sleep Society, which just dropped on April 16th. And we'll be playing a clip of the song at the end of our episode. Next, we'll be speaking with mental health expert Andrea Vasilev from the Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance, who'll give us insight on panic attacks, panic disorder, and agoraphobia, and how cognitive behavioral therapy can play a part in the road to recovery. But first, let's hear Sean Long of While She Sleeps share his story. And you know, now that we're on the topic of live shows, that is such a wonderful feeling for the fans, but I also know it's a wonderful feeling for the band. During this pandemic, how have you dealt with not having that part of your life?

SPEAKER_03: 1:33

I think most artists are now really feeling the sting of this. I know I've been feeling it rather subconsciously and now i've kind of added it all together and maybe this is why i've been feeling certain things like a lot of what we do as a band is we spend an hour on stage kind of exerting all this energy that we've been building up whether it's personal or whether it's the energy we want to get out in the songs or whatever if you have this moment where your personality goes out the window and you get to really just express yourself freely and there's not much not much suffering and not many problems can get in those moments and especially for a metal band like us we go mental on stage so there's a lot of there's a lot of energy release there and i think i'm missing that now and that's what a lot of artists are going to start to notice is that a lot of angst building up and some kind of energy release that we're missing out of

SPEAKER_00: 2:22

well i think especially for metal bands and the kind of live show that you put on. I mean, everybody's jumping, everybody's like expressing and they're just having a great time. And I realized that kind of expression of emotion, we don't normally get to do that in our everyday lives. I mean, we just don't get to do that. But with music, whether it's playing or whether it's expressing yourself during the live show, just letting all of that out, it just makes you feel so good.

SPEAKER_03: 2:55

Well, think about that from a fan's perspective as well. How many people would feel comfortable just screaming or singing a song really loud? You don't ever do that. And I think that's an important part of being a human. I think there's so many spiritual practices that involve screaming and letting out. I think there's a reason behind that. And I think for the average person, they don't get to do that ever. When do they get to jump around and just scream without being... looked at as like a mental person in the street or something. I think everyone needs that. Like everyone needs that release.

SPEAKER_00: 3:29

Absolutely. And speaking of your new album, you have a song called Nervous on it, which you wrote. And you said that it's the single most important song I've ever written in my life. And it's about acute anxiety. And I'm wondering, can you describe how acute anxiety shows up in your life?

SPEAKER_03: 3:50

I can. Where it manifests for me in terms of my expression, especially music and the way I speak about these things, it comes from a moment in my life a few years ago, actually. So acute anxiety and really deep anxiety doesn't affect me as much anymore. I found a way out of that. And the reason why I'm so empowered to talk about it So I experience all kinds of anxieties all the time. Like I get nervous for interviews. This is a common thing that I say a lot and just stuff like social anxieties. These are things that I can deal with. Cause I think everyone deals with these things on different levels, but it's just, sometimes they may go a little bit deeper for a specific individual. And for me, it went that way. It went quite deep. So, and I found a way out. So that's how I speak about it in terms of acute, because there was a moment where it went really bad for me and now having come through the other end that's where my inspiration comes to talk about it because i know whilst you're in that place it's very easy to believe that you can never never get out of it that's what i believe hand on heart i didn't believe anything other than that i didn't think i'd ever make it out and i did so that's where the inspiration comes from but i i deal with anxiety daily but it's not problematic anymore it's more just it is what it is kind of thing but out of that hole, which is where I'd like to give my inspiration to people stuck in a similar position?

SPEAKER_00: 5:11

Well, I think you used some words that really describe what it feels like when you fall into an acute anxiety or a severe depression. It's like you fall into a hole, like you're at the bottom of a dark well and you're trying to get help, but you're not able to see the light or it's very hard to see the light. And you're trying to find a way out of that. I know you've also talked about depression in the past and they often go hand in hand, depression and anxiety. But you mentioned that a few years ago that it got really bad for you. Was there something that triggered that or something that was going on in your life that kind of made you spiral to a depression? deeper, darker place.

SPEAKER_03: 6:01

Yeah. And I think this is very common for a lot of people in this situation too. It's usually some traumatic event that kind of sets this ongoing struggle off. It's usually some kind of pinnacle event, not for everyone, but I know it was for me. I'll try not to go too deep into it. It's quite a big story. The short version of it is, now I don't put this all down to drinking and partying and stuff like that. But as I was growing up and we were getting more successful in the band, it was very common and very normal for If you live in England, basically you get, you party. It's quite normal for people to drink and party in England. And if you're in a band, you party a little bit more. And in retrospect, I do feel like it might've got a little bit out of hand, but I was never like an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything like that. It's not, that's not my story, but I do think it played a part. So I think it was 2015 Warped Tour, basically partying every night, nonstop. I used to smoke as well. My diet was terrible. But before this, I had a problem with shortness of breath. Every now and then I had asthma, but really mild asthma. And I had this problem with shortness of breath that I completely ignored my entire life. I never saw it as a problem. And then I played this show. It was in Vegas. It was the hottest show today in history on Warped Tour that day. So I basically had this panic attack and I'd never had a panic attack in my life and I couldn't breathe without going too deep into that moment because that was the traumatic moment for me. It was one of the worst moments of my life. Really, really terrifying, especially when I'd never really touched suffering like that. And it just came at me like, like a million knives all at once but the interesting thing it was from that moment my nightmare started actually so that moment was terrible but then it was two to three years after that which really destroyed my life from that moment from then my mind completely consumed me and almost all the common symptoms of anxiety and depression and agoraphobia and all these things just followed me after that i've obviously experienced pain and suffering and anxiety before that, but never to this extent whatsoever. Nothing that I would see as like a landmark in my life. So it was this event. And then afterwards life got a little bit difficult.

SPEAKER_00: 8:06

The thing with anxiety too, is that, you know, there's worrying and there's concern, but anxiety is like, off the charts. And it can also include irrational fears, fears that you know that don't even make sense, but in your mind, it feels real. So what were some of the anxieties or the thoughts in your head that were consuming your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03: 8:32

Because I'd never had a panic attack. I'd never had this negative rush of pain just completely consume me so quick because I've never been faced with such a scenario. My mind just said, I can't breathe. So then obviously what comes after that is pure panic. What would you mean I can't breathe? Isn't that not the end then? So afterwards, I developed this fear of having a panic attack or fainting or this thing would come, which was the anxiety, of course, would come. I'd have this big attack and I'd die. It's a lot more complicated than that. But the short version is that I was scared that this would happen again, but I would die this time. So it was always this peak. I was always worried about reaching its peak. But the interesting thing is what I've realized years later is that there was never no peak to be reached. This was the anxiety. It was the worrying about the peak. So I was always scared of it was going to get to this end game, big faint. They're going to have to call the ambulance so I can't breathe or something like that was creating this worry inside me. But years later, I found out that was the anxiety. That was the peak. And that was the thing I had to deal with. I mean, I could have got diagnosed with a lot of things. I think agoraphobia would have been one of them. I was very afraid to go too far away from my house because I thought the further I got away, the more the panic would come thinking that this thing would happen and no one would be around to save me. So that kind of kept me bedridden and home ridden for quite some time. At the very beginning of it, I was actually so frightened to go outside. I'd even drink a little bit to go outside. But this time, for the first time in my life, I drink because I knew it was going to take the pain away. Whereas before, I was drinking just because I thought it was fun. I mean, I never knew I was covering up a subconscious problem. But the shit your mind makes up and how... It doesn't matter how irrational it is. It's from the individual perspective. And those are the things that bothered me, this whole thing about not being able to catch my breath, about fainting, about this thing coming. So then your mind just runs away with that and creates the most nightmarish things for you, specifically for you. So everyone's is completely different. So now I could give someone my problems and it wouldn't affect them because they haven't had my experiences. So I think it's very individual, but yeah, that's the short version of it.

SPEAKER_00: 10:45

Yeah, I totally get that. I mean, I remember when I was going through bad anxiety, for some reason, I was so afraid that I could never find a parking spot. And for some reason, that was just a disaster. And so these fears that don't even make sense to us, but feel real, the agoraphobia comes from the safety of being at home, thinking that if you stay at home, all of these thoughts, all of these fears, you have a better chance of them not happening. But then you're stuck at home. How did that affect your work and your career as a musician?

SPEAKER_03: 11:26

Yeah, I was out of the game for quite some time when this happened. It was a very serious thing in my life at the time. It was very I couldn't work. It wasn't, it's very hard for me to talk about and articulate how bad it was for me personally, but I know people would relate. Like I mentioned agoraphobia, but there was no remedy for me staying at home and making me feel a little bit safer. It was just whenever I wanted to try and maybe just go to the woods and get some fresh air, I couldn't even do that. So I'm still at home. It was a really strange thing because every moment of the day was me facing this new problem. So it was almost like I had this life before and then I woke up and then it was all anxiety. So I'd open my eyes and it was instant, straight thinking about my breathing. Am I breathing right? Maybe I'm going to have this panic attack. And it was relentless. So the agoraphobia was just the cherry on top. In terms of the career aspect, that was just gone. And that was on hold for as long as it took for me to kind of figure out what the fuck was going on. And like I went to the doctors for help and they offered me some tablets, which I denied. I was in a really bad place and I really wanted something to take. Like when this is this new fear that comes out of nowhere, you kind of, you want that secret pill because it's so complicated. You just want, give me that pill and let me get rid of it. But I knew deep down, that's not really what I wanted, but I went down to the doctors to get it anyway, because I was just like, look, you need to give me some, I'm freaking, I thought I was losing my mind kind of thing. So they gave me the tablets and then I went home and read the side effects and that just made my anxiety trip out even more. And it was that moment where I realized I can't take the tablets because I just don't agree with that being the answer for me. So it was that moment where I turned another way.

SPEAKER_00: 13:07

There must have been family or your bandmates or friends that knew about this. How did they react to what you were going through?

SPEAKER_03: 13:16

Everyone was supportive, but I think everyone was very worried because like I say, was one day to the next so i know my friends there was a lot of conversations with even our management because we were all very close at the time we didn't know what to do because even my closest friends didn't have a clue and didn't have an answer and that's the terrifying thing about it really is that even you don't have the answer and so it's very worrying for everyone else and one of the scariest things about it is that for me it was so i was so endowed in it that no one external would really be able to help me I had to figure this out myself because all the love and support around me wasn't really giving me any help. It was so confusing for me. And I remember to illustrate how strange it was for my friends is the day it happened, I had the panic attack. I kind of came down from this insane fear. And I remember talking to my tour manager before I went back to the bus. I told my tour manager specifically, please tell the lads not to speak to me or ask me what happened because I was so worried their question would fire off this new mind thing I've got, which would, the thoughts would roll and snowball into this new panic attack and it'd happen again. So my fear was that high. I said, please, I can't have anyone speak to me about it. And it was really weird because the way I was walking, I remember after the panic attack, I was walking like I was physically sick. I almost couldn't walk right because it hit me so hard. It was so weird. And then obviously my friends see me walk on the bus after not knowing what happened. And then the tour manager saying, don't speak to him. I think it was a very confusing time for everyone. So I definitely have sympathy for people's loved ones and friends. When it comes so radically out of the blue, it's a scary time for everyone.

SPEAKER_00: 15:02

Yeah, it's scary. And that's it. It's like people on the outside don't know what's going on, but yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 15:09

You

SPEAKER_00: 15:09

don't know what's going on either. You're confused. The thoughts in your head aren't making sense to you, but you're still feeling them. So you were in a place where you felt trapped. I mean, if you're agoraphobic and you feel like, oh gosh, how am I going to get out of this if I don't want to get out of the house? I mean, what finally made you see the light to, and I'm sure you tried a few different things, right? To help yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 15:36

When it was really bad, I was still having alcohol every now and then, but I was very aware that this was the wrong way to go. I was very sure that I shouldn't be doing this. I need to figure something out soon. So then that's when I went to the doctors and trying to get some synthetic help from the Western angle. And I knew it wasn't at heart what I wanted to do. So it was that moment when I was like, I've got to stop smoking, stop drinking. And that's when I turned to natural healing. And this is when I got really drawn to spirituality and Eastern teaching and meditation and all that world, but it was not like I just turned over to it and I'm like, oh, I found the answer. It was a real grind to try and, because I was faced with the real question. It was like, I can't take these tablets. I'm struggling right now. I don't know what to do, but I'm also not in a position to end my life or anything like that. So those, I got given those paths and I'm like, I'm not going to let this thing beat me, even though suicidal thoughts did present themselves to me at times, but I was in a place to kind of observe them. not let them consume me so when it's this deep you really don't want to spend your time working on it because there's so much pain involved so that's what i meant by going head on i'm like i have to look there's no other way out for me and it was the spirituality i don't know if that's the best word but it was that angle the alternative healing angle i knew it was the way i had to go and then it was through much research and i follow a lot of teachers that really gave me the power to look in myself which ultimately for me is the answer to these problems fundamentally. It's not the cure that everyone wants to hear, that everyone wants to take something or drink some tea, but the remedy that no one really wants is that you've got to look within with some honest eyes and it's very hard to do and I'm working on it still myself, but it's evaporated the bulk of this disgusting suffering that just came out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00: 17:25

Well, I know you've talked about Eastern medicine and Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts that you read. And I really appreciate that because the podcast was about finding the solutions that work for you because you have to have a lot of persistence. You've got to try a lot of things and a lot of things may not work for you. And sometimes it takes time, right? Whether it's medication or whether it's a therapy or whether it's a mindset.

SPEAKER_03: 17:52

And I'd say as well, like you're saying, I don't think there's anything wrong with any method that people choose. Everyone's so individual. It varies from person to person so vastly. My answer is not the right answer. And the things that I detest in my life also aren't the wrong answers. I think that's important to promote as well. Like it's different things work for different people for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 18:12

Yeah. Have you ever had issues with depression? Cause I said that it does often come with anxiety.

SPEAKER_03: 18:19

Well, I don't promote to know too much about depression only for the fact that I know that predominantly my problems came from this fear. I was depressed because of my anxiety. I was very aware of how much it was destroying my life, even to the point of I can't even go to sleep. I have an old lyric in a song which was, don't want to be awake, don't want to sleep, which was pretty negative lyric because I couldn't sleep and it was a traumatic time trying to sleep. But in the day, it was just pain all day. Do you know what I mean? So

SPEAKER_00: 18:48

with the anxiety, now living with it what are some of the triggers that you have to watch out for

SPEAKER_03: 18:57

so the triggers when i was kind of on the mend basically your mind's designed these little ways of you over so it's a good idea not to put yourselves in those situations not to give your mind a head start so one of them for me was don't drink because this entire thing happened for me during a hangover so if you drink you're trying to drink away your problems you're basically giving your negative energy or your mind a head start the next day so if you have attended a tendency to have these negative thoughts and you haven't you're in a hungover state you've given your problem an incredible head start so stop doing that it's a good bit of advice and it does hurt a lot more to stop that but it'll be worth it in the long run and things like i was very afraid to like lose my breath i mean and being in tight spaces and being constricted so i just avoid things like that but these are temporary so whilst you're on the mend it's just about awareness is key i think in all of this so when you start to realize the way your mind keeps trying to play tricks on you because it when it realizes it's kind of winning you over in certain circumstances it will do it again and again and some over time your awareness gains a little bit of control this situation makes me feel that way I think those are the real triumphant moments for people on the mend is when it's bravery, man. It's not, it doesn't seem like bravery to anyone else, but to put yourself in those situations, I had to basically relive my life again, which was really annoying because I had no problem with flying. I was okay. I was an okay flyer. It's like, no problem. It's my life. I travel around the world and play gigs. It's just what I do. After this event, it's like I had to do it all again, but with anxiety. It was really awful to go back through my life and do normal things, but now with this fear of, of fucking dying any second or something like that. So sometimes you have to throw yourself in there to prove that your fears will not come to fruition. Sometimes throw yourself in there. And for me, over time, I'm like, it never happens. This thing never fucking happens. And my mind's still getting me to invest my time into believing that this thing's gonna happen. So throw yourself in the deep end and really be like, is it really gonna take me down like I keep dreaming it up to?

SPEAKER_00: 21:09

Well, I think you sort of described the battles that can happen in your head. And that's an ongoing battle. And you're constantly also learning about yourself and what works. And I read somewhere that you said to look inside to find what the core of the problem is. When you looked inside, what did you discover?

SPEAKER_03: 21:30

So the predominant factor of a lot of this pain was a very physical emotion in my chest. So when I develop this anxiety of shortness of breath, it's a very physical sensation that I can't breathe. But clearly I have enough oxygen. I'm literally sat at home doing nothing. I can't be running out of air, but it really feels like I need more air. That's what it generates for me. And putting your attention on that whilst you've got this monkey mind kind of trying to, the mind likes to suffer. I learned this from Eckhart Tolle, like it really enjoys to suffer and it's true. Once it's in pain, it will do its best to keep you in pain. So whilst you've got this mind that's trying to bring you down, whilst I was putting my attention on basically the scariest part of my life, which was the shortness of breath center, when you put your attention there, it doesn't stop, but it stops it growing any further. So that's why awareness is key. oh, there's the thought that usually brings me down to that place. I recognize this pattern now. And then you're almost given, in a weird way to put it, you're given a choice sometimes to decide whether or not, do I want to go down that rabbit hole? Because you can have positive rabbit holes as well. I think that's where creation comes from. You have an idea and then it snowballs. And then the next thing you know, you've made an album. So it's your choice to go down that rabbit hole sometimes. Just like when you're in bed and you can't sleep and you're just thinking up some crazy fucking idea or something. But then the negative rabbit holes are the ones that bring you down. There's no time to put your attention in and try and look inwards. And deep down, I know that was the answer to look at it, but I always was confused as what does that even mean to look at it? How do I look at it? Where is it? It feels like it's everywhere. As soon as you put your attention on anything internally, you give your mind a little break. And it's usually the mind that's making up a lot of these stories, which then evoke a terrible reaction emotionally. And that's the sensation that we don't like. So that awareness, it slowly starts to bring you to some peace. And that is easier said than done for sure. It's definitely not an easy thing to do.

SPEAKER_00: 23:37

So when this feeling starts coming up, what kind of strategies and coping skills have you learned that worked for you? Because you did talk about self-awareness. So now you've come to the point where you are aware of the feeling of it and the thoughts of it.

SPEAKER_03: 23:55

Well, let me just say, the reason I enjoy talking about these things is because I don't think it's a mental health problem we're all dealing with. I think it's a spiritual problem. And there's a reason why we're all in so much pain on so many different levels. So it could be insecurities. It could be jealousy. It could be anger. These are emotions I feel. These are emotions everyone feels at some point in their life, along with happiness and these negatively charged emotions, which are not to be thrown away because they're telling you something about yourself. And they're there to be looked at. For me, it's when you're in a great mood and and you're filled with joy, there's no need to look inward and find out more about yourself because you're in a great state. So there's a lot of benefit in feeling these negative emotions because it's a wake-up call to look a little bit deeper. It doesn't have to be just depression here and just anxiety here. Feeling sad is a form of depression, but sometimes it goes too deep for some people and that's when it becomes a problem. So I think there's immense benefits from experiencing these things. It's a good thing because it's making you look deeper into the nature of being alive and existence in general. I think it goes for me anyway, it goes a lot deeper than just an anxiety attack. I think it's saying a lot more about who we are as people and any emotion or emotional response to anything external or internal is a wake up call to look inside. Why is all this insecurity coming up me? Why is this feeling consuming me? That's what I've learned a lot through looking inward. I still feel a lot of these emotions, but I'm very aware of them the second they present themselves. So I almost get given this choice whether to go along with emotions and be a very jealous person or be a very angry person, or I have a choice to subside and kind of be aware of it while it consumes me, but don't go any further with my mind. But again, I'm on a journey too. Sometimes I fuck up and my anger will get the best of me. And it's too quick because the anger comes too quick and your awareness has no chance to grab it. And before you know it, you're already in the angry state. You're thinking angry thoughts. When you're happy, you think happy thoughts. When you're angry, you think angry thoughts. You're consumed. It's too late. The awareness has gone.

SPEAKER_00: 26:03

Yeah. That's the challenge, right? Emotions can be very reactive and some people have emotions that go one to 10 and some people have emotions that go one to a thousand. And in those moments where they get really big, you may not be as much in control of them unless you are aware of what's happening and what you're thinking. And if you think about the cause of those emotions, I call it giving respect to your emotions. Like there are a lot of people that try to stuff those away or put them away. And I think what happens when you do that, it just slowly starts to grow bigger and bigger and come out in very unhealthy ways. But once we really look at it and talk with it and find out why, I think it's giving respect to your emotions. And I feel that all emotions are sort of like the colors of the rainbow. It makes us who we are and it creates our personality.

SPEAKER_03: 27:03

I agree. I think emotions are emotions. It's this whole idea of, oh, I have these good emotions, I have these bad emotions. I think this is the entire concept of Zen Buddhism. You have the good on the one side, the bad on the other side, and there's a place in the middle, which I think they call Ananda. I'm reading this audiobook recently called Radical Forgiveness, and there's something in it I really love. He's talking about basically anything that you detest in someone else or something that you really dislike in someone else, it really creates an emotional reaction in yourself. There's something in you that is very similar to what you're detesting so much. So when you get these reactions, these people that are causing them are actually your guardian angels to show you it's telling you something about yourself. And I think it's very true. So if you get really angry or if you get really jealous with this one person, it's a mirror. They're showing you something about yourself and therefore it's a wake-up call to look in. So I like to promote that idea. Anything that you perceive as negative, That is the wake-up call to have a look inside. That's what it's there for.

SPEAKER_00: 28:07

Right. Good advice. You know, you talked about forgiveness. And I think sometimes when people go through bouts of depression or anxiety, they can act in a way that maybe afterwards they feel like, oh gosh, maybe I need to apologize. Have you ever been in those situations where you really feel like I need to explain what happened there?

SPEAKER_03: 28:32

no for me it was like the life or death situation for me that's what it felt like so i became quite selfish like i need to fix this it's very this is really destroying me i need to fix it so there was never any need for me to apologize and i knew everyone around me understood and i think everyone has a right to be selfish man i don't think apology is necessary sometimes so i've never felt the need to apologize maybe if it's an anger thing for sure i'll have to apologize for that

SPEAKER_00: 28:59

Well, that's good that a lot of people in your circle understand what you're going through. And it's been a process. You talked about being in a really bad place. And when people are in that bad place, what were some of the things that you started to do that started to work that helped you get out of that hole?

SPEAKER_03: 29:19

One of the things I really got interested in was Chinese medicine. and herbal remedies and stuff. I really fell into that world. I've got a book to recommend as well here. We'll recommend it now, now we're on the subject. This is The Ancient Wisdom of Chinese Tonic Herbs by Ron Tiergarden. And it's basically everything you need to know about tonic herbs. And now I never think that they cured me, but I'll tell you what they did do, which I think is really important on this journey. They gave me like optimism and they were like, I fucking found something that I really believe that this might help me in a specific herb called reishi mushroom. I really connected with it and I really thought this was gonna help me. And I started taking these herbs along with the meditation and stuff. And the good thing about tonic herbs and herbal remedies, this is my theory on it anyway. So yeah, what herbal remedies are really good for is not curing the problem, But you can take things to help with the feelings of anxiety, which is something that herbal remedies help with, in the same way that synthetic medicine helps with too. But in my opinion, I don't think it will get rid of the problem, but they're very good allies and tools to have when you're feeling these sensations. When I started to leave the house, I'd never leave the house without some valerian root and some reishi mushroom, just because I feel like I've got a friend with me, like a herb that can help me. Natural sedatives was a good way if it got too sharp, like valerian root or chamomile or passion flower or astralagus, lots of things like that. So I think they're really good helpers. And the reason I got drawn to reishi mushrooms so much is just the concept that mushrooms basically grow on dying matter. And what they do is they... break that down for new life to grow so they they feed on the negative they feed on the shadow they feed on the dark side of life to bring new life in and i read a few things about reishi mushroom they call it the mushroom of immortality for multiple reasons one of them being a spiritual reason and it just made sense to me like and again whether or not this is true it helped me because i had optimism and it empowered me to to help myself so just the idea that mushrooms can start to work on your subconscious level, the dark side that you don't like. Maybe the mushrooms can break that down to make it more malleable and manageable throughout the day. And that's what it felt like it did for me. It wasn't consuming me as much. It was there, but I could manage through my day. So I think finding something that you feel Strongly, I think this is a good thing for me. I'm going to give this a go. That's what I like about this. And I want people to get into is finding something to help yourself that you feel really passionate about. Like, I've got a good feeling about this thing. I'm going to try that. Fuck, that didn't work. I'm going to try something else. I'm going to go again. So I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00: 32:09

Yeah, I love natural remedies. And I drink all kinds of teas and things like that. And the thing with herbal medicine is that it's been... tried and true for a long time. So we know that there's some safety in the body. However, you have to also watch out. There are some things, of course, that are also natural that can harm you. But have you ever tried, I mean, conventionally there's therapy and there's medication. Have you ever tried the conventional types of things that have worked?

SPEAKER_03: 32:43

No, I'm not against it. It's just for me personally, it's not what I wanted to do. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just couldn't get on board with these tablets that can only help with the symptoms of anxiety, which is the feelings and stuff. They cannot, in my opinion, solve the issue of the fundamental problem. Like, why am I overthinking these things? But I do know for a fact that they really do help a lot of people. So I'm not against them whatsoever. This is just a personal thing for me. And in terms of therapy, I got offered CBD. cbt

SPEAKER_00: 33:14

right cognitive behavioral therapy which is like talk therapy

SPEAKER_03: 33:18

yeah yeah so i got offered that very in the early stages of this thing and i was tripping balls over and i was like give me the fucking tablets basically but i think that kind of therapy anything that kind of directs your attention inwards and you're working with yourself and on yourself in that way i think it's more than beneficial and so the spectrum is so wide because it's so different from person to person because i follow so many spiritual teachers i get a lot of inspiration from those kind of people but they all say something that the other one didn't even though they're all talking about the same thing i can i hope to be that for someone because i think i'm a relatively common person i'm nothing special at all i'm just a dude from sheffield i hope to say something that just hits that nail for someone. Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes words pass people all the time. I can read something and it just doesn't resonate with me for some reason, but just a few words and I'm like, oh, fuck, I really get that. That makes sense to me. So I hope that's what I want to do for people, really. Even if it's just a few words of encouragement, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 34:19

Well, hope and encouragement and support, those are all really important words for mood disorders, especially when you're going through them. Speaking out is such a wonderful thing. So I really thank you for sharing all that. But it really helps your fans, people that listen to you and admire your music. What are some of the things that you hear on the road from fans that make you feel like you've made a positive difference?

SPEAKER_03: 34:46

Yeah, it's a weird life we're living in. And people tell me that I've saved their life and stuff. And I really don't want to say that with any kind of egotistical undertones or anything like that because it's not like that. But when you hear that shit, I'm like, wow, really? Like, really? And not just me because of the anxiety things I talk about. They'll say just the band has saved their life. That's something, you know what I mean? We're all alive. We get born here and we die here and there's this thing in the middle. So just to do something like that for someone, just to relieve a bit of pain just for that moment is just mad special, do you know what I mean? Especially when that's not always the main intention. Our main intention isn't just to save lives. Sometimes we're just having fun. We want to make some fucking riffs. But then there's other times we're trying to put some deep stuff in the music and we want it to help, like the Nervous song we're talking about. But when people say that shit, it makes it all worth it. Like I say, it's just a weird life. And to soothe someone's pain just like that, I think, what more can you ask for? I think we're all in this strange world together. And that's why it interests me to talk about this shit.

SPEAKER_00: 35:53

Great, great. You know, is there anything else that you would like to say about your band while she sleeps or about mental health?

SPEAKER_03: 36:03

The thing I'd just say is like, never be ashamed of your emotions. We're all in this thing together. It's very confusing. It's a very strange life. When people walk around as if they know what's what and they know how life is and what it's all about, I think those people are a little bit delusional. It's very confusing for all of us and we're all in it together. Everyone's just doing their best. And that's why I get drawn to the spiritual world. And the suffering pushed me there. I don't know what to say to my fans other than just if you are struggling with these things, just know I think there's something a lot deeper that's calling you. I don't think it's just about you're in pain and why is the world doing this to me. I think it's a much deeper message for you that you need to look a little bit deeper to find out. And I think those things are... They're screaming at you to take a look at yourself. So it's not all doom and gloom, even though I know for a fact, personally, it feels like that. This is a strange thing to say, but I will say this, try and get excited about your problems. Try and get empowered and try and get optimistic about your bad negative depressions and anxieties. Because if you can get excited about taking care of yourself, that optimism and that empowerment is mad powerful. That's what I think got me out of my hole the most. Just the attitude of like, I cannot let this beat me. And I think that goes a long way. Like have a look at it in that sense. If the depression and the anxieties are always coming and going all the time, What harm is it to try something different at one time and then try something different at another time? There's no harm because you're going to experience it anyway. It's going to keep coming. So just keep searching and have some faith, man. I think the answers are there for everyone. I truly do. And there's a short period of time where we're alive. And I think it's our job to find out a little bit more about why we're in so much pain.

SPEAKER_00: 37:53

Well, I also find, I'm going to speak for myself here, that when we get to the other side and play detective, which is what we have to do when something like this happens, because it's hard for somebody else, really, even a doctor or a good friend to know exactly what you're going through. You have to get the strength, even if it's the little bit of strength left to find play detective and keep trying and knowing that there is going to be an answer for you. And after you find that answer, you get to a different level. It's funny because it sounds like a video game, but you get to a level where you have even greater joy because you have an appreciation for life and you have an appreciation for life. what you went through to get to where you are today. And you have a greater sense of confidence and maybe even appreciation for yourself because you constantly learn something new about yourself as you go through this.

SPEAKER_03: 38:55

I could not agree more because I felt peace before this event. Of course, I felt peace. I felt happiness. But it tastes so much better after these things I've gone through because when you're in this pain, no longer want money you no longer want sex drugs all you want is not to suffer you know i mean you don't want any material things like a new guitar or clothes whatever it may be you don't want anything all you want is to not be in pain anymore so once going through that post these depressions and anxieties when you do feel the the peace That peace tastes so much better because you know that's all you ever wanted. And it actually grounds you a little bit more. You start to realize that all the things that you were chasing previously externally don't really solve those problems and scratch those itches. It's worth it in that sense because the Buddha said this. It doesn't say what enlightenment is. He said what it's not. And it's the end of suffering. It's an interesting quote. That's all we need is not to suffer. But the mind's always on a fucking rampage to cause some shit. You know what I mean? I agree with you. It tastes a lot better having once experienced that shit.

SPEAKER_00: 40:08

Yeah. And it seems like all the little things that might have bothered you in your younger years just don't bother you at all because you've gone through the big one, right? You've gone beyond the mountain and, you know, life does get sweeter. Yeah. Life gets sweeter. I say that because I want to remind people that there is beyond the mountain and there's a beautiful life there. Next up, we talk with Andrea Vasiliev, a speaker, educator, and support group leader for the Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance, San Gabriel Valley Chapter in Los Angeles. Andrea will share her thoughts on therapy, medication, and more for panic disorder and agoraphobia. So Andrea, there was a study in 2019 that was done with 1500 musicians and they called it the 73% study. And what they did was they questioned musicians and asked them about different mood disorders. And they found that about a third of them suffered from panic attacks, which is a really high percentage. So I'm really glad that we're talking about panic attacks and also panic disorder. Can you tell me the difference between the two?

SPEAKER_01: 41:26

So that's really interesting. You would think that musicians of all people would have such great stage presence and love being in the spotlight. That it's interesting for me to learn that they in fact are more likely to have panic attacks. So most people in their lifetime will experience a panic attack or a panic like attack. If it's the real deal, it is an overwhelming experience in which you feel Your body goes into fight or flight mode. Your whole body, you feel like you're gonna die, your heart starts racing, you get dizzy, you get nauseous, you're shaking, you get tingling in your arms and in your legs and your blood sugar spikes and it's like everything. And you really feel like you're gonna die in that moment. But there's no actual threat. That's the attack. And panic disorder, it becomes a disorder when a month or so later, if you're still worried, that it's going to happen again and so worried that it's impacting your life and your functioning, that's a panic disorder. So people are most likely to have some kind of genetic predisposition where this starts and then something may trigger it, something hormonal or when they're older, maybe something, a trigger of something that's in the past.

SPEAKER_00: 42:46

So with Sean, his trigger seemed to be his drinking, drinking alcohol. And in fact, his first attacks happened after a long night of drinking. So I wanted to talk a little about anxiety and alcohol because they sort of are sometimes interconnected. People drink for a lot of different reasons, but anxiety is really a common reason. And at first, drinking alcohol can help relieve anxiety. You know, we feel looser and relaxed and more confident. But what happens is as we continue to drink, the alcohol can actually exacerbate anxiety and make it worse. And what they're finding is that it can actually induce panic attacks in the same way that happened with Sean. What happens is the alcohol actually changes the level of serotonin and other neurotransmitters in the brain so that it can worsen anxiety. And the anxiety can last for several hours, even up to a day after drinking. Because with Sean... His first anxiety attack happened during a hangover, and they actually have something called hangxiety, which is that feeling of being on edge after a night of drinking. You might feel a little paranoid or scared, and you can't explain why. They call that hangxiety, and it can make panic attacks more likely. In fact, it says about 25% of people with panic disorder actually have a history of alcohol dependence. So this whole cycle of drinking because you're anxious and then the drinking causes you to become more anxious, it becomes this spiral that just tends to get worse, which looks like happened with Shawn. So Sean, he was offered cognitive behavioral therapy, which I heard is really good to help relieve panic attacks. Can you describe what is a common CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy method that's used for panic attacks? That is

SPEAKER_01: 44:58

possibly, I don't want to say the best because I don't want to start a riot. That is a really great treatment for panic disorder. Specifically for panic disorder because it helps you figure out that even this this attack is happening Like it's okay. You're not necessarily gonna have another attack and even if this attack is happening. You're not gonna die Basically, you've got this idea. You've got this experience that happens to you. You're flooded by emotions. You think oh my god I'm gonna die right that thought is not true this automatic thought then leads to feelings and In this case, they might lead to feelings of fear and anxiety and freaking out. And these feelings lead to behaviors. Behaviors like staying in your room, avoiding stuff, running away, whatever it is. So you've got this circle of thoughts, feelings, behavior, and you get stuck in this loop. And the only way to break this is to go back to the automatic thought and reason with it and take it to court and say, what evidence do I have for this thought? Everything's good. I'm not going to die. I'm just experiencing anxiety. That makes you feel calmer, doesn't it? And from there, you can take that into a better behavior, something like I'm going to take a walk. And that is really helpful for panic disorder because if you go back and you say, I'm perfectly safe here. I have my friends. I have my phone. I have my dinner, whatever. Then your next feeling will be safety and your next behavior will be walking down the street doing something happy.

SPEAKER_00: 46:30

Does that

SPEAKER_01: 46:30

make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 46:31

Yeah. I think it's just like anything, you know, whether it's riding a bike or driving a car, to learn something new like that, it's practice.

SPEAKER_01: 46:41

Yeah, it's really great. In fact, I've been through the 12-week program for CBT for panic attacks. So I have it from both a patient's perspective and I have it from a clinical perspective. If you go for a pure CBT course, they send you for about 12 weeks. with the CBT practitioner. You get these worksheets to fill out about the thought you were having, what kind of panic or anxiety it was producing, how you challenged it. They give you ways you can challenge it. Are you generalizing? Are you catastrophizing? And you have to take every one of your thoughts to trial and hash it out on the page. And it's really kind of mind blowing. And of course they give you relaxation techniques and breathing and mindfulness to help you in that moment. But to get down to the bedrock of it and undo some of the mechanism, they give you these ways to unravel your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00: 47:38

Yeah, and put a stop to going down this downward spiral.

SPEAKER_01: 47:43

Yeah, and it's so important to know in the moment that it's not interminable, although it certainly feels interminable. Panic attack, usually it'll peak at about 10 minutes, come down at about 30 or 40, but it does not last forever.

SPEAKER_00: 47:58

That's always good to hear. But when you're in it, it's pretty bad. Yeah. Okay. So we talked a little about therapy. What kind of medications can people take for panic attacks? And what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01: 48:13

This is a subject that people have lots of opinions on. You can take medication for panic disorder. People take Xanax for panic disorder. Like any medications, there are problems, there are side effects. I'm not anti-medication. I am pro-medication as needed. I think people are often quick to say, give me the pill, it's the quickest solution. However, this is one of those you will get better and longer, more lasting relief from something like CBT than you will from a pill. And pills like Xanax are, in fact, habit forming coming off of them can be very difficult so you set yourself up with a lot of other problems you have to put in the work to learn about yourself and to do the skills and learn the skills but then you have those skills forever it's like you learned a whole new language to help yourself you can apply those cbt skills to so many things ocd anxiety depression eating disorders if you're really depressed and you're thinking i'm so worthless okay that's a thought that you're having But you got to go back and examine, is that a true thought? If you can go back to the thought and deal with the thought and why it's not rational and why it's not true, then the rest of these dominoes will fall into place. And that will make you feel better and that will make you behave better. So you can apply those CBT skills to so many things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:42

So Sean's panic attacks then became a panic disorder and then it escalated to agoraphobia. Can you explain like in simple terms what agoraphobia is and how it happens?

SPEAKER_01: 49:56

What happens is if you have a panic disorder and you are afraid that you're going to have another panic attack, you often develop the next step, which is agoraphobia. You don't want to go outside of the house into a crowd or in a line or in an open space or anywhere from where you won't be able to escape if you do have a panic attack.

SPEAKER_00: 50:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 50:17

So that's like, you have a panic attack, then you have a panic disorder, and then you develop agoraphobia, and if you don't treat it, it just keeps escalating.

SPEAKER_00: 50:24

I see.

SPEAKER_01: 50:25

And that's why people end up being shut in their homes, really panicky, because they don't want to go, oh my god, what if I get on a bus, and I have a panic attack on the bus, and I'm going to die on the bus, then what happens?

SPEAKER_00: 50:38

Yeah, I guess just the whole idea of hiding away and not being with people is it's just a dangerous position to be in because as humans we need to connect right and when somebody has a mood disorder it's important to not only connect you know with people and family and friends but also to connect with people that might be going through the same thing you're going through support groups can really assist in so many ways not just the connection but also just with so many different solutions it's always good to hear from somebody who's going through what you're going through, what has worked for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 51:19

And that commonality is so powerful because you don't get that in everyday life. And when you're dealing with a mental illness, you feel like it's the whole world. But if you look at the numbers, the rates for bipolar disorder are not even 1%. So chances are, unless you're going to a group like this, you don't know anybody in your everyday life who also has bipolar disorder. The odds are pretty unlikely. So making those connections is just so invaluable because it validates your experience of what's going on.

SPEAKER_00: 51:50

Yes, and if you're looking for a local support group, visit checkyourheadpodcast.com. Well, you'll find contact information for NAMI, which is the National Alliance for Mental Illness, and DBSA, which is the Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance. Both of these organizations can help you get in touch with free local support groups. And for musicians in particular, you can contact Backline or Tour Support to find additional mental health resources. You can find those on our website at checkyourheadpodcast.com. And if you need help in paying for your treatment, there are organizations like Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, a nonprofit specifically for musicians in need that can assist in helping you pay. A big thank you to our musical guests, Sean Long of While She Sleeps and Andrew Vasiliev from DBSA San Gabriel Valley. For more information on While She Sleeps, their new album Sleep Society, and their upcoming UK tour dates, visit WhileSheSleeps.com and follow them on their socials at WhileSheSleeps. And be sure to stay tuned to hear a clip of their latest single, Nervous, at the end of our episode. For more information on Andrea Vasiliev and DBSA San Gabriel Valley, visit dbsasgv.org or find them and over 100 other mental health resources on our website at checkyourheadpodcast.com. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental health that you need.

SPEAKER_02: 53:33

All this pain we undertake Learn now Check

SPEAKER_00: 53:59

Your Head podcast is kindly supported and partnered with Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley, Earshot Media and Lemon Tree Studios in Los Angeles. Visit checkyourheadpodcast.com where we have over 100 solutions for mental health. Be our friends on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch us on YouTube and support us with a kind donation on checkyourheadpodcast.com. Check Your Head Podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.