Lzzy Hale (Halestorm): Alcoholism & Depression Recovery with Dr. J. Stuart Ablon (Harvard Medical School)

Mari Fong & Kat Jensen interview Lzzy Hale of Halestorm and expert J. Stuart Ablon, Ph.D., Harvard Medical School. 

Today's featured guest just came back from playing with Metallica, Slayer, Lamb of God and the great Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath, for the “Back to the Beginning” show, touted as "the greatest day in the history of heavy metal." A bigger hint? She was the only female rocker invited to perform onstage. Yes, today we have the great Lzzy Hale of Halestorm, a Grammy Award winner who’s also a mental health advocate having been a member of the Grammy Mental Health Panel, Halestorm recently dropping their 6th studio album entitled, “Everest” on August 8. Lzzy will share her story of battling depression, panic attacks, anxiety and alcoholism, and then share the solutions that managed her demons. We’ll also find out why she feared Alcoholics Anonymous, who convinced her into therapy, and how she survives and thrives as one of the greatest female metal rockers in music. I’ll also play a clip of Halestorm’s single, “Everest” at the end of our episode. 

Next, our featured expert is an award-winning psychologist from Harvard Medical School, Dr. J. Stuart Ablon. Dr. Ablon is known for his revolutionary approach for creating change, not just for our mental health and addiction but also for use in our everyday lives. We’ll tackle questions like, “How do you approach someone who may be in danger of losing their life to their addiction?” And the meaning behind his tag lines, "People do well if they can, and behavior is about skill, not will.”  But first, let’s hear Lzzy Hale of Halestorm, share her story, and for this interview, musician Kat Jensen, will be joining me. 

Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.

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The information shared during this interview is for general informational and educational purposes only and should not be considered professional medical advice. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider for any individualized medical concerns.

Transcript

CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast featuring LZZY HALE of Halestorm and J. STUART ABLON, PH.D.: 0:00

(Begins with Music)

MARI: 0:03

Welcome to the CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share stories and solutions for mental health and addiction recovery. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist, and today's featured guest just came back from playing with Metallica, Slayer, Lamb of God, and the great Ozzy Osbourne with Black Sabbath for the Back to the Beginning show, touted as the greatest day in the history of heavy metal. A bigger hint? She was the only female rocker invited to perform on stage.

Speaker 02: 0:38

Yes, today we have the great Lizzy Hale of Halestorm, a Grammy Award winner who's also a mental health advocate. Having been a member of the Grammy Mental Health Panel, Halestorm recently dropped their sixth studio album entitled Everest. Lizzy will share her story of battling depression, panic attacks, anxiety, and addiction, and then share the solutions that helped manage her demons. We'll also find out why she feared Alcoholics Anonymous, who convinced her into therapy, and how she survives and thrives as one of the greatest female rockers in music. I'll also play a clip of Halestorm's single "Everest" at the end of our episode.

Speaker 02: 1:19

Next, our featured expert is an award-winning psychologist from Harvard Medical School, Dr. J. Stuart Ablon. Dr. Ablon is known for his revolutionary approach for creating change, not just for our mental health and addiction, but also for use in our daily lives. We'll tackle questions like, how do you approach someone who might be in danger of losing their life to their addiction? And the meaning behind his taglines, people do well if they can, and behavior is all about skill, not will. But first, let's hear Lizzy Hale of Halestorm share her story. And for this interview, musician Kat Jensen will be joining me.

MARI: 2:04

You just came back from performing at the Back to the Beginning show. I

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM: 2:09

I know, right? We were so grateful to be there, and it was such a crazy mix of emotions. We've never played a concert like that before where everybody was there for the same reason. This was all just to say goodbye to Ozzy and to celebrate Black Sabbath and their legacy. So we were emotional, we cried, and then we were ready but also terrified because we're like, oh my gosh, this is nuts that we're even here.

MARI: 2:31

Not only is that super exciting, But that's also kind of scary. I would think there would be fears to be on stage with your icons and at the same time the world is watching. How do you quell those fears and get yourself on stage and put together like such an amazing performance like you did?

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM: 2:52

You know, I'm better at it most times. And then there are still some times that the anxiety creeps in. It's like, what am I doing here, you know? But for me, I have to remind myself of my 10-year-old self, if that makes any sense. My mom has a home movie of me at 10 years old before we started the band. I'm in my living room. My dad's playing the piano, some kind of Beatles-esque rock chords, and I'm just making up songs. And I think about the core of me and how I was so proud of myself. I'm like watching myself sing and make up these songs. And as a 10-year-old, I'm like, girl, you always had it. You didn't need anybody to tell you you did or not, you know?

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM: 3:33

So I try to go back to those things and trust my inner child in a weird way, you know, and let her guide me. That's easier said than done. There's always an element of excitement or nerves before a show, but I feel like I'm getting better at not having either of those things be fear because I think fear is just a wall that you end up putting up. It doesn't do anything for you. You know, what are we striving after? Perfection? That's not going to happen. We're not perfect people, you know, like we put too much pressure on ourselves to be normal or to be perfect or to be light all that really matters is what you think about yourself you know this pertains to songwriting too but it's like if I was on a desert island and there was nobody else around would I still like what I do would I still like me that's really the only question that I need to answer in those situations you know also easier said than done because giving myself a pep talk can either work or sometimes freak me out more so it's a constant journey for me.

MARI: 4:36

Well, you know, you talked about being 10 years old, and I was reading that you've had your first panic attacks around 10 or 11 years old. I mean, what did you do at that age to kind of calm yourself down?   

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM: 4:50

When I got into middle school, I got a better handle on it because I was starting to play instruments and all of that. But I remember when I was younger, I ended up tearfully confessing everything to a teacher and then just being like, I need you to call my mom now and I gotta go home. So my first instinct when I was younger was to run to try to find the way out of whatever situation because usually what happened at school when I'm alone. We're like can I do this? You know, and it's too much. I still battle those things today but I feel like there's something about now being a part of the arts and having certain outlets. And also I try to tell myself that it's just a feeling you know it's not that I'm broken or my brain is broken or that I'm just never going to be happy. You know, it's just a feeling.

Speaker 02: 5:42

Well, that must be difficult because so much is coming at you at the level that you are because you're such a popular band. I know that you started out with panic attacks, but you've also had depression and anxiety and imposter syndrome. Can you give me an idea of how that progressed in your life? Because Because I know that depression and anxiety was in your family and oftentimes it's passed down. Yeah,

Speaker 04: 6:11

I think there's something to do with that. And, you know, I was a child of the 90s and my parents' generation, nobody really talked about therapy. There was a lot of shame around that. You know, I even remember being at the Christmas table like when I was a kid and somebody would be talking about one of my aunts. Oh, she had to go see a shrink because she couldn't handle divorces. So, yeah, I mean, definitely there is a history of mental health. mental illness, depression, and some mania in my family. And there's a lot of ADHD as well. And I watched a lot of my family go through it without actually seeking help. And so my brother and I ended up having this talk about seven years ago and said, we need to be the cycle breakers and we need to help ourselves, but we can't have this mentality that our parents did. So he ended up getting me into therapy. I guess my first real bouts of depression were in middle school, not really understanding what I wanted to do in my life. And then I ended up starting the band with my little brother, finding music. And that really helped for a long period of time, especially when it was very new and where it was something that I could call my own. It was something nobody could take away from me, something that would make me feel special. But the band was a much needed distraction for myself and my little brother. We were both teased mercilessly. So it was one of those things where we'd come home from school and have a good cry about it. and we would go and jam and write a song. Then that gave me, you know, the means, a project, something to shoot for. Then years later, when I was in my 20s, we ended up giving sign to Atlantic Records and, okay, there's a new adventure. And then my depression and anxiety kind of started creeping back in through my 20s, but I had more fervor and a lot of defiance, you know, in my 20s that were kind of my armor. And in my 30s, There was a lot of saying yes to a lot of things. I've always been kind of a people pleaser. So I ended up using my career as a, oh, I guess I have to do all the things. I have to take on all the projects. And so I ended up burning myself out a bit. You know, there was I was never into this for attention. There was like a fame thing that happened where all of a sudden, like, man, am I going to be able to be this perfect person that everybody feels like they look up to now? Like, is that something that I'm going to have to take on? You know, and then from there, I ended up drinking a little more, more than I wanted to, not just casual, but an everyday thing. But it wasn't making me happy anymore, that particular substance. It was making me feel disparaging on myself. It got to the point where, like, in my late 30s, where I could have two glasses of wine and I'd be like, oh, I suck, you know? And so I ended up pulling that out of my life shortly before I turned 40. I

Speaker 03: 9:03

know that... expected to have this rock and roll lifestyle, you know, sex, drugs, rock and roll. And our fans often want us to live up to that image. So would you mind telling us more about it? Yeah,

Speaker 04: 9:19

absolutely. It's glorified within the business as well. This is the only job you can have where you want to have a beer at 10 in the morning during practice? Sure, why not? I was very lucky to have never really gotten to a point where I've completely embarrassed myself. A lot of my demons were behind closed doors. And, you know, I would sneak stuff because I didn't want anyone to think that I'm drinking too much. And then I saw myself in the mirror at one point. My guitar player ended up videoing me at one point when I was, like, just a little drunk. And I was just very sad. I didn't want to be that person. It kind of scared the bejesus out of me. And I'm like, how did it get there? Like, I watched all the behind the music. I know exactly what I'm not supposed to do. but the decision was it's no longer making me happy and it was hard to get through that there was a lot of FOMO for a while like oh they all get to do it but I think I have a problem you know and it's like it's not making me happy how come he's a happy drunk and there's something that happens with like women too because for a long time when I first started thinking well maybe I'm on a long road to sober I can't really sustain this I kept drinking because I was like you know you got can talk about. Johnny so-and-so knocked over the statue in the lobby of the hotel. They all talk about it like it's the glory days, whereas women like, oh, you got too drunk and messy last night and we were embarrassed by you. You know, it's like there's this juxtaposition between men and women too and how they're viewed as an alcoholic or how they're viewed as, you know, if they're asking for help. And that's the main reason why a lot of people don't necessarily have the support when they first really should be looking at stopping drinking their drugs.

Speaker 03: 11:06

It's not only drinking drugs, whatever it is, but when you're a female in this industry, I always found there were some differences between what the guys were able to do, what the girls could do, and what was expected of us. You know, any image to behavior to harassment. I wanted to know as a woman, how have you dealt with that yourself personally and play along with the boys and not let it bother you.

Speaker 04: 11:36

One of

Speaker 03: 11:36

my

Speaker 04: 11:36

biggest weapons is flipping the script. For example, when we were first starting to play in the bars and clubs as teenagers, you know, I'd be carrying in my equipment and, you know, literally without fail every single time, either whatever bands we were playing with or somebody who worked at the club would be like, oh, that's awesome. My girlfriend never carries in my equipment. I would have to explain like, no, I'm in the band, dude. Or they'd be like, oh, the merch table's over there. No, I'm not the girlfriend. I'm in the band. So I ended up using that to my advantage because my idea was, well, if they're not going to expect me to be in the band, we started doing this thing during our show where I would start from the audience with like a hood up and a microphone, but like not be seen and just let my voice be heard, kind of start acapella, letting my music lead first. And then another example is when we were shopping to labels, they would come and play and say, you're so consistent. We love what you do. But girls in rock aren't a thing right now. So we don't know what to do with you. At that point, I was like, that's ridiculous. You know, I'm going to do it anyway. And I'm going to play anywhere I can and get as much attention. Somebody's going to have to do something about it. But even after we got signed to a label, in the beginning of us getting our songs on radio, they'd be like, we have an Amy Lee or we have our token girl. So that's enough for our program. You know, and that's since slowly but surely been inching its way toward change. But there was still a couple radio stations on our last record cycle during Back from the Dead that wouldn't play our third single, Wicked Ways, because it was quote unquote too aggressive. But this is also the same stations that play, you know, Five Finger Death Punch or Lamb of God. And I'm like, wait, you mean too aggressive for a girl to sing that way? You know, it's like you understand the language, but nobody wants to tell you the truth. But honestly, you know, you can't be so incredibly concerned with their opinion and the And so I'm like, this may hinder my journey, maybe a little longer, maybe twice as hard as maybe my male peers, but I need to do what's right for me, you know, and eventually everything kind of works itself out. I've started flipping the script too on how I think about my plans not working out. Like, I get excited if my plans don't work out because that means that who am I to know? You know, it just leaves a space open for something great to happen. Every special thing that has ever happened to us, everything that's ever moved the needle has been some chance reaction or somebody that ended up seeing us, an opportunity that we got to just say, okay, this is who we are or this is who I am. You know, it was never from those guys that said, oh, we don't know what to do with you because that's small-minded. It's like if you like what you like, it shouldn't matter what's between my legs, you know.

Speaker 02: 14:33

Well, you know what? You actually talked about a really good solution when things go haywire or not as planned, that you had this attitude of, you know what, maybe something better is going to become of this. Maybe there's a bigger picture that I'm not aware of. Just that attitude can really have somebody feel more relaxed about what's going on.

Speaker 04: 14:57

Yeah, I'm not the be-all, end-all. You know, I don't know everything, and there is something me to this. There's a reason that I'm still here after everything that I survived. You know, I talked to my therapist about that. It's really, it's crazy. The fact that I'm able to stand here, you know, whether it's my good day or my bad day and say that I am here. You know, in those moments, you have to say, you know, who am I to know what's right or wrong? Who am I to know what the bigger picture is? What the bigger plan is? And it kind of calms me down, even if I'm having a bad day, even if I don't like myself today. I'm like, okay, that's a thing that's happening. When am I going to do about it? The only thing that I can control is my attitude and what I'm going to do next. You know, I've gone to some AA meetings and there was this guy that was talking and he said this really profound thing. He said, you're not responsible for your first thought. Your first thought can be something, you know, a disparaging thought that flies in your head like, oh, I suck. Or, oh, I want a drink right now for people in recovery. But you are responsible for your second thought and your actions thereafter. You And so we had this conversation afterward and I said, yeah, I'm just trying to do the next right thing. Whatever that is, fill in the blanks and put the pieces together and start kind of feeling better, even when you're living in the chaos, even when you have no idea. The truth is that nobody really does. We're living in this life, there's the illusion of rules and boundaries and here's how you're supposed to act, how you're supposed to feel, how you're supposed to write music. There's no actual rules and no Nobody actually knows what the hell they're doing. And that's everybody. So you're not broken. You know, we all have no idea. And we're just trying to make it out here. I'm

Speaker 03: 16:44

glad you said something about therapy because, you know, people who might be still stuck in what they've been doing with the stigma of therapy, what made you decide to go get therapy? And what would you say to those people that it's, you know, it's probably the best thing that you could ever do for yourself?

Speaker 04: 17:03

to really start going to therapy. I think it was about seven years ago, a little bit before COVID. It was my brother who got me into it. You know, I was going through a depressed moment, which does happen on tour. Sometimes you get into this downward spiral and you have to pull yourself out of it. But my brother had recently started going to therapy and he'd explained it to me. He's like, sis, you go to a dentist for your teeth. You go to a doctor for your physical well-being. This is just a brain doctor who knows how these things work. And the brilliance thing about what I've learned in therapy and it really did save my life is you're able to not let things fester and you have a person there that knows has seen a million things before you know you don't feel alone about it like it's just your problems like a lot of other people do and this is how we get out of it so here he will give you solutions I'm a very internal person so when I get into my disparaging spirals it's hard to get out of them because I feel like I have to deal with it on my own I gotta do it but when you have a professional sounding board you know sometimes I would be going through something or venting to her and she'd be like you know that wasn't your fault like just able to explain certain situations to me all of a sudden I would be like oh my gosh because you can build things up in your brain to the point that you don't even remember where it started you just feel bad now that's what I call it the festering you just let it sit too long and now it's just ridiculous you know you don't even know why you're sad right now you know and one thing that she always tells me too is don't forget about the music and I would scoff at her in the beginning I'd be like what are you talking about music is my life I can't stop thinking about the music you know I went through a phase over COVID where I just I didn't even want to look at my guitar it made me sad because I didn't know what I was doing at the time and she said with everything that you've gone through in your life and everything that you've survived That was always your life route. So she's always encouraging me to continue writing through it and also creating something out of nothing. It's such a confidence booster and it is a way to get out of your own head. I've been in this band for 28 years. A lot of times it feels like just something I do, not like this magical thing. Sometimes it feels truly magical, but that's your connection. And that's how you would figure out the messy pieces in your head as a child, even before you decided to start the band. That's how you did it. So don't forget about that. Don't take it for granted and just say, oh, it's there because it's my career. If anything, that's just going to dampen what it does for you.

Speaker 02: 19:43

There are a lot of musicians that go through depression and anxiety and panic attacks. What are some examples of what goes through your head when you're depressed and when you're anxious? Oftentimes those are illogical fears, but they're so real when we're in it.

Speaker 04: 20:00

The biggest one that would happen with me is I'm about to do something that I could say logically I've done a million different ways before I've gone through harder things but for some reason I don't believe I can and so it becomes more survival and less I'm just going to enjoy myself in the moment that's usually what ends up happening with me with my anxiety and even after I conquer it you're driven by this anxiety and this like fear of failure failure. So you muscle your way through. And even after I accomplish this thing, I still go into a bout of depression because I'm like, damn it, I've lost the magic. What is it? I've lost it. Even though that's dumb and impossible, I say that to myself a million times. Like that wasn't even the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And yet I had so much anxiety going through it. As a band, we sometimes go through some mutual nerves or anxiety depending on what's going on in our career. And we have this silly thing that we do. Either together or we do it ad each other if somebody's having a bad day you have to yell and then run in place as fast as you possibly can you know we do this whenever things are getting a little too serious because you can't keep your train of thought when you're doing both of those things at the same time and it does help snap you out every now and again sometimes it's not enough and I have to tell myself that this is just a feeling and I can get through it you know it's like I feel like for me everything comes down to whether I'm thinking way too much about what happened yesterday or waiting too much about what's happening tomorrow. You know, if I just keep myself to one thing at a time and do the next right thing, you know, I can usually calm myself down.

Speaker 02: 21:45

Yeah, I think what's important is persisting through the emotion because sometimes emotion can be strong and oftentimes we'll try to grab whatever we can to get out of that feeling. But I think to be able to persist through it and move past it could really help a lot of people that have suicidal thoughts or maybe they feel like running away when they're having a panic attack. I mean, all those feelings are normal, but just to kind of sit with it for a bit. You know, one thing you mentioned is getting out of a deep hole. And depression is really difficult. Kat and I have both been through really severe depressions, and sometimes it takes a while to get out of that hole. It can be paralyzing.

Speaker 04: 22:28

Yeah. The things that normally would make you happy just don't. It's terrifying because you feel like, oh, now this is just the way it's always going to be. That's something very wise about naming it something and calling it the feeling and just being like, okay, this is just something that's happening, but it's not going to last forever. And you can't turn to drinking or drugs because that only makes that worse. When I was still drinking, the solution would be just to try to freeze time, to try to shut it off. To quit drinking was when I that every time I would get depressed. Maybe that'll help me forget about it. Maybe that'll help me not think about it. Because all you want to do is not think about how you feel. Just getting yourself out, keeping yourself distracted. I hate it too, but it's like you have to muscle yourself to do it. I don't feel like doing this day. But you know what? It's the thing to do. I had to do it. Let's just do it and get through it. And then I find myself halfway through the task or even at the end of the task, I'll have to do something else. I have to keep my mind busy, distracted for a while. Playing guitar, a very good distraction, you know, and you end up getting better because of it. I started learning different riffs. I'm just like, you know what, this is going to make me a better player anyway, but it's going to distract me from how I'm thinking. And then all of a sudden, like an hour later, I'm like, I hadn't thought about that in an hour. That's awesome. And the more you can practice that, the more you can try to weed it out. But everybody's different, but you're not alone in thinking that way. And these things happen to so many people. Honestly, I feel like it's the majority of people. If you could find me one person that's never been depressed over anything, I'd probably call them a liar.

Speaker 02: 24:11

I was wondering, you mentioned therapy, which is amazing, but some people take medication for depression or anxiety. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 04: 24:21

You know, it's funny that you asked that because I have begun talking to my doctor about taking some antidepressants. We're going to see first how things go because I feel like it could be really helpful. But at the same time, what I ended up telling her was that I need to kind of clear my head a bit. And I wanted to get myself to a certain point where I knew that was going to be the next step for me. So we've just kind of been in this ongoing conversation about like, okay, when should we? I have so many of my friends, either in the industry or not, that take antidepressants and have done the trial period with a couple different ones to find the right situation. And it really has helped. And then I've had a I agree.

Speaker 02: 25:27

We have a website called checkyourheadpodcast.com. I have about 150 different solutions, organizations, all free and affordable because I feel like it should be accessible to everybody and everybody can have their choice on what they want to try and also what's going to align with their lifestyle and their personality. There's a lot of belief systems and sometimes they change. Like you're talking about your mental health journey. Maybe at one time you might have thought medication was not the way to go, but maybe now you might say, you know what? I think maybe that's something I'd like to try. There's

Speaker 04: 26:02

no one rule and your beliefs can change. And I was one of those people too, where it's like, oh, I'll never be medicated. I'll just figure it out. The hardest thing to do is to be honest with yourself and ask for help when you need it. I know it's tough, but literally that's the difference between saving your life and not. You don't have to carry this alone and you don't have to feel like the way that you feel. forever. There's people out there that can help you and there's no shame in asking for help. You haven't failed because now all of a sudden you need help. You know, if anything, you only fail if you don't ask for help and then something happens, you know, and you get to a point where you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. You know, that's failing. So it's a personal journey, but I feel for so many of these kids out there. I talk with them at the shows and the meet and greets and I get these beautiful letters from people and I'll tell you what if you like live music there's nothing to break you out of a dark cloud than going to a show you know either performing a show or going to a show there have been many times where I was like I don't know what I'm feeling and then one of my guys will be like hey we're going down to see this local band at this bar in downtown I'm like okay let's go fine I'll just get out of that house and the whole time I'm going there I'm like why am I getting out of the house I don't want to go anywhere and then when I get there you can physically feel that cloud being lifted Like just surrounded by people that are just like you. They're just like wanting that escape. So, you know, there are different outlets. But like I said, don't be afraid to talk to somebody if you're feeling weird.

Speaker 02: 27:38

I read about when you first really wanted to be a mental health advocate, you had something that happened that was really difficult, which is your friend Jill Janis from Huntress, who unfortunately passed from suicide. I mean, if she were alive today, what advice would you give to her as far as reaching out and, you know, getting help?

Speaker 04: 28:04

I'd probably tell her to call me and just to vent, even if I didn't understand, maybe some closer people, saw some signs, but none of us did. Nobody in her outer circle. And it's a shame she didn't reach out. It's a shame things got so bad that she didn't feel like she could. The lesson on the other side is that, unfortunately, nobody can tell her this now. But if you're feeling like you want to go away, I implore you to remind yourself, you know, how many people actually care that you exist and care that you're here? Because I felt that way too in certain ways. It's amazing how you can feel very alone and still be surrounded by a lot of people. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. You know, I feel like I can speak from experience with my depression and my anxiety. It goes in waves. I was watching some interview with Tom Hanks and we're asking people about the best advice he ever got. And he said that somebody had told him this too shall pass. And he's like, and that goes both ways. You having a bad day today? This too shall pass. You having a good day today? This too shall pass. You know, and I think that when I try to remind myself of that, it makes me feel better because everybody's going through this ebb and flow. We are complex beings. We are constantly evolving. Every seven years, your cells change. You know, it's like, give yourself some grace. You know, you don't have to be happy all the time. You don't even have to like what you do all the time. But understand that the pendulum will swing the other way as long As long as you decide to keep trying and you keep moving forward and you ask for help when needed, you know, and people are so willing to give you a hand. You know, if anything, most of us who have lost friends to suicide just wish that they had done something because we would have been willing to

Speaker 02: 29:56

help. Yes. Of course. Yeah. that if that person is kind of hell-bent on doing that.

Speaker 04: 30:41

It's kind of like if somebody has a problem with drugs or alcohol, you can't just be like, hey, just don't drink. It doesn't work that way. It has to be that person that makes that decision.

Speaker 02: 30:53

Well, you know, one thing that was really interesting is that I read that you had an idea of what AA was, but then when you got there, it became something life-changing for you. What was your image before? And then what was, that life-changing experience for you after you experienced it.

Speaker 04: 31:14

I grew up in a Christian school, so I've gotten burned by God before by the idea that this particular religion's put God into. What does that mean, getting burned by God? I consider myself a spiritual person. I believe that God is more than what man decided he was. And there's a lot of religious connotations that paint him out to be this, you know, this vengeful person in the sky just ready to, like, clamp down. fear of getting kind of wrapped up in something man-made religion based. I shied away from AA, but when I went there for the first time and then the second time, it became this fellowship and it really did become like church, but for me it was the gift of desperation where it's like you're finally ready to say, okay, I give my life over. It was amazing, just absolute amazing stories and communities and you don't feel so alone. You don't feel on in your silly stories and your mistakes and the guilt you feel for some of those things or even just the idea that you let it get to a certain point. There was no judgment or hierarchy. It was a place for us all to be ourselves and I got to meet people. I mean, I keep in contact with so many of my buddies at the A's out here on the road because that gets difficult and so I end up hooking up with some friends and keeping each other in check and it was worth it. I find myself whenever I go. It puts me on the right path and it says, okay, I made the right decision today.

Speaker 03: 32:51

It kind of raises my curiosity. Being sober, what does the after party or backstage look like for you now? Do you view it differently than you did in the past?

Speaker 04: 33:06

Yeah, and if anything, it's actually more enjoyable now because I'm able to be mentally present. It's more enjoyable to hang around everybody, even if they're getting drunk, you know, but it's like I like absorbing. you know, the energy of it. I go through phases, like I'll do the NA beer thing, but I'm really into tea. And there's actually a lot of non-alcoholic or de-alkalized wine out there that I've discovered. I think it's harder at first to get out of habit, you know? And so you tell yourself things, you're like, oh man, this sucks because I have to be better for myself. And how come they get to drink it? I don't get to drink. But when you realize that it's not really about the drinking versus not drinking, it's about You've just created a habit over years. This is what you do when you're sad, when you're happy, to celebrate. You know, it's like we're advertised all the time. And that routine and break that habit and cycle, it gets easier.

Speaker 02: 34:05

Yeah, I think it's amazing just what we grow up with and what we are led to believe, let's say with alcohol, and how it's so pervasive. You know, whether we saw it in our families or whether we thought that was part of being A rock star is sex, drugs, and rock and roll. But to start to be really conscious about what am I doing and what is this really bringing to my life and realize that sometimes drugs or alcohol can actually bring drama, break apart relationships, or make you feel like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I said that or did that. And then realizing, you know what? I kind of want to be clear and actually enjoy all the people that I'm surrounded by.

Speaker 03: 34:50

Because some people get addicted to the drama that comes with using and it can grab you in different ways.

Speaker 04: 35:00

Some people, it's more comforting to try to be miserable. It's more comforting because sometimes it might be all I've ever known. There's a comfort in the knowing versus the unknowing where sometimes the happiness, like be aware of the happy times because you're like, what is this feeling? I'm not used to this. But you absolutely hit the nail on the head. You have to check yourself and be like look this is causing more harm in my life than good this is causing me to be more depressed it compounds on itself you know that's just the way that is that's why I was saying about the gift of desperation like I was so sick of my own stuff you know like the situations I was putting myself in and sick of how it was making me feel also the things that went through my mind was like I know where this goes I don't want to be this stereotype either I And I can see the path where that might go. And alcoholism does run in my family. So I had to make that difficult decision. But you know what's great about it? For any of you listening in recovery, you're going to get to a point where you're almost going to feel bad for the functional alcoholics in your life. I feel like I could have never appreciated my highest high if I had never known my lowest low. If I'd never gotten to a point where I'm like, man, I just can't go on autopilot before I have to make some decisions in my life.

Speaker 02: 36:21

And what was the lowest low for you what was the thing that happened that's like oh my gosh I really have to do something now I

Speaker 04: 36:28

think it had to do with a combination of imposter syndrome and this depression spiral that I was in like the last year that I was still really drinking and I was using drinking to just kind of shut everything off I need an escape you know I don't necessarily want to die but I don't want to be functioning right now you know because functioning is difficult I wasn't necessarily Everything that I was looking at was more of a have to than a want to. stuff together. So that compounded on itself to the point that I lied a couple different times about whether or not I was stopping because I didn't know how to balance it. It was just a very weird, messy situation that I needed to like break apart and reorganize. And part of that was going to therapy and eventually stopping drinking because it was no longer making me happy. The latest thing that I just did in February was I went on a therapy retreat where we did a lot of psychodrama and learned how to meditate for the first And it was for seven days. It felt like I was there for 30, but it was for seven days. No phone, no internet. We did group therapy. And I encourage anybody that feels brave enough to do something like that to do it because you don't realize how much the world is just advertising at you. Just the weight of everything that you are allowing to absorb, you know? And so taking the time to take a break from social media, take a break from from the internet, the news, all of that, and try to just sit still and be okay with that kind of stillness has been really important in my life.

Speaker 02: 38:32

Well, I applaud you for doing this because that's like a self-care thing, right? You're saying, you know what, I am super busy just like everybody, and you could think of any excuse to say, you know, I'm not going to do this. I don't have the time. And I think that's what happens when musicians don't really put themselves first. And it just keeps changing, right? Because you talked about a little bit about relapse and a little bit about what you do to try to hide your addiction. I think that's really normal and natural. It just keeps changing and you just keep learning more because sometimes something worked last year, but

Speaker 04: 39:12

this is not. Exactly. And that's such a natural thing. And I think that people think like, oh, well, I'll do this and it'll fix it. That's not necessarily true. Maybe it'll fix it for a little while, but you have to kind of bob and weave and pivot. And the toughest thing for me was deciding to put myself first. Even when I went on that retreat, like I lost a full week of rehearsals, guys. You know, like there's things that I couldn't do that I had to put on hold so that I could do that for myself. Don't worry about it. Life is still going to go on. Life is still going to be here for you when you give back. I've been on kind of a warpath for self-betterment for the past 10 years. two years or so because in a way that does get addicting because the more I learn about myself, the more I want to be artistic in a different way or write songs in a different way. I get more connected with my inner child and she becomes a co-writer for one of my new songs. You know, it's like everything you can do for yourself will help Spiderweb out and help your other relationships too. You know, I'm doing some amazing healing with my mom and my relationships with my bandmates. I've never been stronger. It's just, it's a, It's an amazing thing when you start to take care of yourself.

Speaker 03: 40:26

I know that there are a lot of fans of yours, especially girls that just really want to go into music because that's how I was. I know that every time you see someone speak out, it's a great thing because it affects others. Do you have any advice for those girls that want to maybe follow in your footsteps personally? I think,

Speaker 04: 40:48

and especially in today's day and age where we are judging ourselves based on how many followers we have. Do I need to gain weight, lose weight? Is my music good enough? Whatever questions are going through your head, what I'd like to tell any young woman listening is that no matter what you do in life, no matter what you put out there, no matter what kind of music you make, you're never going to be all liked and you're never going to be all hated. And either one of those, we've streams don't actually matter at all. The only thing that matters is what you think about yourself. You know, you love yourself first and make sure that you're doing the most enjoyable thing possible, creating the music that you want to make, playing the way that you want to play, holding yourself the way you want to hold yourself. And the strange thing about that is that you actually end up finding your people. You find your friends, you find your tribe, you find your followers through just being your weird self and owning it. And the only thing that matters is loving yourself first and enjoying what you do.

Speaker 02: 41:55

Next up, we have expert Dr. Jay Stewart-Ablon, who will teach us the basics of collaborative problem solving. This helps us better understand and change challenging behavior while building the skills needed to protect our mental health. He's been a speaker for TEDx, South by Southwest, and has authored a number of books, including Changeable and and most recently writing with Mel Robbins, the parent-companion guide to her best-selling book, The Let Them Theory. Now, let's hear Dr. Avalon share his best professional advice. We just heard Lizzie Hale's interview, and she's had issues with her mental health, with addiction, particularly alcoholism. And you know, a lot of people are resistant to change, and you're known for the taglines, people do well if they can, and behavior is about skill, not will. Can you start by further explaining this?

Speaker 00: 42:54

Absolutely. That phrase even, resistant to change, you know, it seems to imply that somebody is quite capable of changing, but just doesn't really feel like it. And, you know, that's really at odds with what we've learned now about change and our human brain and behavior and our mental health. You know, it used to be the case that we just thought if people tried hard enough, you know, they could behave in whatever ways and feel whatever ways we wanted them to feel. But it's just not that simple. And what research has shown is that as people are behavior is driven much more by our skills than our motivation. And when I say skills, I mean skills in areas like problem solving and flexibility and frustration tolerance and what are called emotion regulation skills, which is just a fancy way of saying like our ability to manage our emotional responses to things. And those are skills. And they're skills that we're actually not often taught. We just sort of hope people get them naturally. And when they don't, we struggle in the world. And my work is about helping people understand that most of us are trying the best we can to manage what the world is throwing at us with the skills we have. And the notion of people do well if they can, what that means is we're all doing the best we can. Not people do well if they want to, but people do well if they can.

Speaker 02: 44:24

Well, you know, it kind of reminds me of being back in school and the child that may not be doing How that person might be working maybe three times as hard as the person that's getting an A. And I found that to be true for myself. I mean, there were classes like math and usually things with numbers that really I had a hard time with, and I was working so hard to do well. But the classes that I excelled in, I seemed to breeze through it a lot better. Let's

Speaker 00: 45:01

talk a little kids who we now know have learning disabilities. We had no idea in the past that kids had these learning disabilities. We just thought that they weren't trying hard enough to read or do math or write or things like that. And as you said, the irony there is the people who struggle with these skills are often the ones trying the hardest. People who have these skills in abundance, they come easily to them. They don't have to try that hard. So this is a big mindset shift for us to realize that when somebody's struggling, it's probably more about skill than And they're trying really hard. And what we don't want to do is send them the message that we don't think they're trying hard enough. Everybody's got their challenges. And what are mine in particular? And what we're able to do, we follow a bunch of research in the neurosciences that helps us identify the types of skills that we need to be able to manage our behavior in the world. And we can help people do a self-assessment of those. I mean, we can ask you 20-odd questions and you can reflect upon, is this something that's easy for me or hard for me? And we can sort of spit out a little graph that will say to you, okay, here's where your strengths are and here's where some of the challenges are. And again, nobody gets a clean bill of health across these categories. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. So I think self-awareness comes if you begin from a place that isn't about judgment. It's a compassionate view. And that opens the door to people being better able to look at their own strengths and weaknesses with an eye towards, well, what might I want to work on as well?

Speaker 02: 47:06

Well, I went onto your website It's stewartablon.com. And I took the test. Okay, well, there you go. Because I want to know, you know, I guess I'm one of those people that want to know what's going on with myself so that I can further improve as a person. I'm really interested also in communication and language. So if somebody gets to a point where they're like, okay, I would like to be more self-aware, they can go on your website and take that test. thing I saw is that you have experience working with people that have explosive behavior and also challenges in behavior. I mean, what do we do in those situations? Let's say if somebody is in denial of a problem that's really starting to wreck their life.

Speaker 00: 47:59

Well, I guess the way I like to think about that, whatever form of challenging or destructive behavior it is, including addiction, is to think about those things not as the problem itself but as the sort of symptoms or the flag that there is a problem. So what I do is I try to, through a nonjudgmental lens, I just try to get curious about, you know, what do you think is going well in your life? Where are some of the challenges? You know, what are the tough things for you? And really try to trace back, for instance, when it comes to addiction, you know, when does somebody find themselves using? Under what circumstances? What's going on in their life? And those are the problems to solve. And it just so happens that this person's solution to those problems may be using where another person's solutions may be to withdraw or to explode or to you name it. So I'm focused much less on the solution I don't like and instead on what are the concerns? What are the issues? What are the things they're struggling with? And that'll open the door to whether there are other potential solutions to the problem as well.

Speaker 02: 49:26

Okay, so being curious about yourself is a good start to being self-aware. But coming from the other side, let's say you're the partner of somebody who is in addiction and you want to start talking about that topic. What's a good way to approach that?

Speaker 00: 49:46

I think the tough thing about these kinds of discussions is they're so emotional and they're so fraught that we often try to sort of nuance the discussion or massage it so that that we're sort of beating around the bush a little bit so that we don't sort of set someone off or have them get defensive. And what ends up happening is it ends up a discussion that sort of really loses its focus and its original intent. And so I encourage people to be very direct, but to just wrap that directness in empathy and curiosity. So it can look as simple as, hey, you know what? I'm really concerned And I'm not blaming you. I know you're doing the best you can. I'm just worried. And I want to talk to you about it. And I want to understand what's going on for you. So I go right into a mode of empathy, which means trying to understand. I mean, this is the thing about the word empathy means to understand. So you bring up your concern and go right into that and just make sure that you're constantly reassuring the person that you're worried you're concerned about how much you're drinking lately. You know they're doing the best they can, and you're there to help. But try to be as direct as possible aside from

Speaker 02: 51:06

that. Well, let me be clear about something.

Speaker 00: 51:59

thing. Just giving advice is not going to work. We humans don't particularly like other people telling us what to do unless they tell us what we want to hear, which is why if somebody is suggesting excuses, you got to be careful not to say, well, I just don't buy that. And here's what you should do. You need to take those concerns seriously, even if they seem like excuses, and try to engage the person in collaboration so that they're trying to come up with solutions to work on this so that they have ownership and authorship so that there's some autonomy. Or else it's just going to feel like these are things that are being done to them. And nobody likes that. And nobody's particularly effective at taking other people's solutions and just sort of enacting them. It's just not something we see. And that's probably because for us to be intrinsically driven to do something, it requires feeling a sense of ownership, connection to what we're trying to achieve. It also requires us feeling some sense of competence, some sense that we can do this and that we feel good about it. And that's why our approach is, in essence, collaboration around solutions. And while I'm not an addiction expert, We have done a lot of work in settings where people are being treated for addiction amongst other very challenging behaviors. And what I'm describing is very similar to a process called motivational interviewing, which is frequently used in the context of addiction as

Speaker 02: 53:44

well. the behavior. But there's problems with that compared to, let's say, being mutually collaborative. Can you talk about why rewards and punishment really don't create lasting change or why it just really doesn't work so well?

Speaker 00: 54:06

Well, they work for some things. They don't work for other things. Rewards, incentives, consequences, what they do is they supply motivation. So if what's getting in somebody's way is that they just aren't hard enough, aren't motivated externally enough, then sure, incentives and consequences can work. But there's a big difference between what we call extrinsic outside motivation and intrinsic motivation, intrinsic drive. And if you externally motivate somebody, you may see change. You may see them try harder for a little bit of time, but it's not going to be lasting because the only things that foster sustained intrinsic drive are sense of mastery, a sense of autonomy, a sense of purpose and passion. There's actually a lot of research that shows if you try to motivate somebody from the outside, it actually eats away at their internal drive. It decreases their internal drive. So there's real dangers beyond it not working. It can backfire. And then the other piece is, you know, behavior is about skill, not will. And rewards, consequences, incentives, those things don't build skill. I mean, they don't teach people how to become better problem solvers, for instance, how to regulate their emotions better. All they do is provide incentive.

Speaker 02: 55:29

Well, one thing that you talked about is empathy. And when there's a problem, oftentimes when somebody approaches somebody else, they're thinking about what they want opposed to what the other person wants. You had talked about four ingredients of empathy. Can you go into that so that that we can have that as a foundation before we approach somebody and have this talk?

Speaker 00: 55:55

First of all, when you're approaching somebody, I would say to yourself, try to be curious, not furious, okay? And try to be curious and not judgmental. I often say to myself, okay, be open-minded. I may not love how this person is behaving, but I bet they have a good reason. I bet they have a good concern. And that's what I'm on the hunt for. But the reality is, I hate to say it, but we're not very good listeners. us humans, because as you pointed out, we tend to enter any conversation preoccupied with our point of view, and we're just waiting for the opportunity to share that. So it's really hard for us to bite our tongue and put aside our perspective and listen. But the four things you're talking about are sort of the four tools that if we do them and don't do anything else besides those four, it helps us effectively stay in empathy mode of trying to understand what's going on for somebody. And the good news is it's not rocket science, these four tools. It's asking questions. You know, think of yourself as a detective. If you don't get any information from the other person, taking some guesses, you know, educated guesses. Those two things are information gathering, questions and guesses. And then the other two things are just trying to help things stay calm. They're what I call regulating tools. And they are reflective listening, reflecting back to the person what you've heard from them in their own words, and Reassurance. You know, when you feel listened to, heard, understood, it literally changes your psychophysiology. Like your heart rate, your skin conductance, your blood pressure changes because somebody is hearing you and letting you know that they've heard you. That's empathy. And it's why I often say empathy is one of the most powerful regulators we have. It calms people. Feeling understood is calming.

Speaker 02: 57:49

Right. And kind of diffusing also if there's anger or sadness or a really strong emotion that maybe needs to be diffused in order to have a conversation that both people are going to be able to absorb. You're talking about language skills and communication. And one thing I found with musicians is that sometimes they're more comfortable speaking through their music, through their lyrics, opposed to a face-to-face interaction with somebody. What are some tips for somebody to practice better language and communication skills?

Speaker 00: 58:26

You know, it's an interesting parallel because I've done a lot of work with kids and adolescents. And one of the things you learn about kids is they have their own language that they speak. And they'll often tell you a tremendous amount, maybe a less direct, but a much more powerful way to communicate. And that's true of a lot of artists as well. And at the same time, it is important to be able to not just in your music, but in your life with your partner, with your friend, with your bandmate, to be able to express your point of view directly in words, to let somebody know what's bothering you, to let them know how you feel. And that is a skill that can be developed. And you're asking, how do you practice it? Well, one way you practice it is before you start any of these conversations we're talking about, what I tell people is, ask yourself, why do I want to have this conversation? Why is this a problem I want to work on? What am I worried about? And typically, what we're worried about is somebody's health, somebody's safety, or the impact of somebody's behavior on somebody else. And then you can actually literally write down ahead of time how you want to express your concerns. You can use, you know, different sentence starters like, I'm worried that, my concern is, what's important to me is, and fill in the blank ahead of time. And that's a good way to practice practice putting your perspective or your point of view on the table.

Speaker 02: 59:54

Good advice. I don't know why I was thinking that maybe a musician could write a song and sing it to somebody and maybe they'll get more insight. It sounds kind of silly, but you know, maybe that's a starting point.

Speaker 00: 1:00:08

Look, I have worked with musicians in therapy and being curious because, you know, one of the great things about good lyrics is you never know exactly what they mean to the musician. because they evoke all kinds of feelings and thoughts and memories for you. They're universal in some way. But that's one of the things we got to be careful about is we make assumptions about what other people feel. And so starting with curiosity, instead of saying, I read these lyrics, this chorus made me think, no, I'm curious. I have my own perspective on it, but what are you trying to communicate there? I'd love to understand. That's the curiosity I'm talking about.

Speaker 02: 1:00:48

Well, I think you brought up a good point about making assumptions. And I think that if we aren't self-aware of how we're thinking, we could start putting our own thoughts or maybe even our own traumas into what somebody else is doing. And that can get in the way of really listening and finding out what's going on with them. Yeah,

Speaker 00: 1:01:11

I have to say, I try to practice curiosity as much as possible. And one of the things I've learned is I'm constantly surprised. Every time I think I know what somebody's thinking is behind a certain choice or behavior, but I'm able to approach it open-minded and be curious, every time I do that, I invariably end up surprised. Oh, wow. I thought it was this, but it's actually something totally different that I never would have thought of. So that's why this notion of being curious, not judgmental, is crucial.

Speaker 02: 1:01:41

Okay. So let's say we're self-aware. I know Lizzie Hale was talking about mental health issues like depression. She was talking about alcoholism as part of her family history. She became self-aware through her brother who said, hey, let's break the cycle and really start to think about the whys behind what I'm doing. So when you get to that point and you want to get help, what's the next step?

Speaker 00: 1:02:10

One of the great things is that therapy is far more accessible than it's ever been these days. And some of that is because it can be delivered in like this over Zoom. Therapy in person, I think, is always more relationally connected. And I always tell people, try to find a therapist that you connect with. And if you don't, move on. Don't say, oh, therapy is not for me. No, that therapist may not have been for you. That's fine. Do a little therapy shopping. And when you find somebody that you really connect with, say to yourself, you know what? I'm going to give this several sessions before I decide, whether I think this is for me or not, because psychotherapy is overwhelmingly effective. That's one of the things we know from lots of research is therapy is really effective. So when you're trying to break a cycle, when you're trying to be more self-aware, you're going to need a coach or a guide to help you with that. And there are many qualified professionals who can help with that.

Speaker 02: 1:03:12

You know, maybe that's one way we can think about it more is that they're a coach. I'm always trying to think of ways to make it easier to say, hey, you know what? I need assistance here. I want to talk with somebody who really knows what they're doing in this specific area that I have no experience

Speaker 00: 1:03:29

in. is an important driver of physical health as well. We know that. There's nothing like exposure to chronic stress and trauma to cause terrible physical health outcomes as well. So there are many reasons that we should be working hard to normalize people seeking help and support in various ways.

Speaker 02: 1:04:07

Right. You know, and one thing that I say, especially to the guys in my life, because I think this resonates with them, is how often do you take your car into the shop? You know, you've got to get oil and you've You've got to check your tires and all of those things. It's like, are you taking your car into the shop more often than you're getting yourself checked with a doctor? You really should be doing at least as well, if not better.

Speaker 00: 1:04:31

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 02: 1:04:34

So is there anything else that you would like to say about the work that you do and also how learning the right skills, how it relates to dealing with mental health and addiction?

Speaker 00: 1:04:44

Well, one of the things that we are learning and a lot of research in psychiatry is shedding light on is that these categories of mental illness, whether we're talking about depression or anxiety or different diagnostic categories, they all share some fundamental things in common. Skills at being able to use language and communication to let people know how you feel to engage with others. Skills related to managing your impulses. Skills related to managing your emotions, flexible thinking skills, social thinking skills, these things all underlie a lot of mental health challenges, which is another way of saying if we can focus on those skills and building those skills, we might do a better job of preventing a lot of suffering that happens later on.

Speaker 02: 1:05:39

A big thank you to our musical guest, Lizzy Hale of Hailstorm, and our expert, Dr. J. Stuart Ablon. For more information on Hailstorm Visit hailstormrocks.com where you can buy their newest album Everest and purchase tickets to their worldwide Neverest tour. Stay tuned for a clip of Hailstorm's single Everest. And for more information on Dr. Ablon, visit stewartablon.com and thinkkids.org. And everyone, please follow us on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch and subscribe to Check Your Head Podcast's YouTube channel and visit checkyourheadpodcast.com for the largest list of free and affordable mental health and addiction recovery solutions. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental health and addiction recovery you

Speaker 01: 1:06:32

need.

Speaker 02: 1:07:25

Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered with Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley, Earshot Media, and Lemon Tree Studios in Los Angeles. Visit checkyourheadpodcast.com where we have over 100 solutions for mental health. Be our friends on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch us on YouTube and support us with a kind donation on checkyourheadpodcast.com. Check Your Head Podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.