Trapper Schoepp: Opioid Addiction & Mania Recovery with Bill Taylor, The Phoenix

Mari Fong interviews singer-songwriter Trapper Schoepp and expert Bill Taylor of The Phoenix. 

Today's featured musical guest, Trapper Schoepp, boosted his career after discovering old lyrics of an unfinished song written by Bob Dylan about his home state of Wisconsin. Trapper took those lyrics and decided to finish the song he called “On Wisconsin.” So when Bob Dylan heard about this, Trapper officially became a co-writer with Bob Dylan for this song, news that spread quickly by Rolling Stone and newspapers across the country. When Trapper finally got to meet his boyhood hero, Bob Dylan, this happy moment happened during the most miserable time in his life. Trapper was battling a serious opioid addiction. In our interview, Trapper shares how he fought a 10 year addiction to opioids, his recent stay at the Hazelden Betty Ford clinic and while there, wrote all the songs on his new album “Osborne,” and how music was a big part of his healing. We’ll also play a clip of his song, “Satan Is Real (Satan is a Sackler)” at the end of our episode.      

Next, we spotlight an organization that has made sobriety cool and fun, growing a community that’s close to a million strong. Today I talk with Bill Taylor, Director of Music Programs for The Phoenix, a sober community that’s focused on activities along with ongoing support and healing. Bill shares how the upcoming events by The Phoenix not only supports music fans, but also the artists who perform onstage.Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.

THANK YOU for supporting our podcast on www.checkyourheadpodcast.com Every dollar is appreciated, every listener is appreciated. For the largest online list of free and affordable mental and addiction recovery help, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/

Support us! On Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/checkyourheadpodcast

Follow Us! On social media @checkyourheadpodcast

Watch & Subscribe on our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@checkyourheadpodcast5174

You rock and we love you at checkyourheadpodcast.com ❤️🤘

The information shared during this interview is for general informational and educational purposes only and should not be considered professional medical advice. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider for any individualized medical concerns.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:03

Welcome to the Check In Podcast, the podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and addiction recovery. I'm your host, Mari Fong, and today our musical guest, Trapper Shepp, boosted his career after discovering old lyrics of an unfinished song written by Bob Dylan about his home state of Wisconsin. Trapper took those lyrics and decided to finish the song he called On Wisconsin. So when Bob Dylan heard about this, Trapper officially became a co-writer with Bob Dylan for the song On Wisconsin. News that quickly spread to Rolling Stone and newspapers across the country. When Trapper finally got to meet his boyhood hero, Bob Dylan, this happy moment actually happened during the most miserable time in his life. Trapper was battling a serious opioid addiction. And in our interview, Trapper shares how he fought a 10-year addiction to opioids, his recent stay at the Hazleton Betty Ford Clinic, and while there, wrote all the songs on his new album, Osborne, and also how music played a big part in his healing. We'll also play a clip of his song, Satan is Real, Satan is a Sackler, at the end of our episode. Next, we spotlight an organization that has made sobriety cool and fun, growing a community that's close to a million strong. Today I talk with Bill Taylor, director of music programs for the Phoenix, a sober community that's focused on activities along with ongoing support and healing. Bill shares how the upcoming events by the Phoenix not only supports music fans, but also the artists who perform on stage. But first, let's hear our featured musician, Trapper Shep, share his story. You did that song on Wisconsin, lyrics with Bob Dylan, and you finished part of it, and then he contacted you, and you guys ended up finishing that song together.

SPEAKER_02: 2:18

So in 1960, on the day he went into the recording studio to begin work on his first album, he wrote a song about my home state of Wisconsin. And uh he did not finish the song, and the producer didn't choose it for the album. And 57 years later, I was scrolling through Facebook and I saw this article that said long lost lyrics by Bob Dylan about Wisconsin up for auction$30,000. And I thought, well, damn, I can't afford that. But what about if I finish the song for Bob instead? So I just took that upon myself. I finished the song, I put it out there, and uh eventually, yeah, Rolling Stone took notice, Billboard took notice, then Bob Dylan's lawyers took notice. And uh we ended up reaching an agreement to where I was the official co-writer of On Wisconsin, as we called it. But yeah, it it kind of ties into my recovery journey as well, because I think in 2019 was the year when I realized that I really had an issue with all these different prescription painkillers that were prescribed to me. And uh it it all started physical with spinal decompression surgery, and then these things turn out psychological. So it was that year which was a year of many congratulations in order for that momentous childhood dream coming to fruition. But really behind the scenes, I was struggling pretty bad. I got to the end of a tour and uh called my mom and I said, Mom, you know, I'm really struggling with this, this, and I also need a haircut. She was like, go get a haircut to start and then we'll work on the rest. But I ended up just white knuckling it, and I kind of got through that period on my own. And later is uh when I realized that I needed more outside help. Even though I had uh kind of cleared the painkillers out of my system years later, other addictions slipped through, and I ended up getting some help at the uh Hazelden Betty Ford Center, the Osborne unit.

SPEAKER_00: 4:53

Let me stop you there, because I find it really interesting. I read you were into BMX biking, you got into an accident, you had to do multiple spinal surgeries, and you were prescribed opioids for painkillers.

SPEAKER_02: 5:10

Yeah, and after I left the Mayo clinic after having really just one intensive surgery, they gave me two different prescriptions, and they almost kind of said, Hey, you'll get a tolerance to one very quickly, so then alternate to the other, and then take them both at the same time. And I was like, whoa, okay. And I was really naive, to be honest. And I think a lot of people were naive who were struggling with chronic pain in that time period of the opioid epidemic where they were just kind of blindly prescribing a lot of these substances. And while many of them do have use in a clinical setting, they're very hard to manage outside of that. And that was that was my experience.

SPEAKER_00: 6:07

Well, one thing that really s stuck out is you said that the prescribing doctor says that he prescribes a lot of these medications, but he doesn't get people off of them. And then he gave you kind of an open prescription and refills and just pretty much was really kind of giving you free reign to take this medication, which is really sketchy. I mean, at that time, what were you thinking when the doctor said that to you? And then looking back, what do you think about it now?

SPEAKER_02: 6:44

Well, I do think that just pointing fingers is kind of the easy way out, right? Because if you just say, well, it's it's this person's fault or this doctor's fault, it's a bigger societal issue and problem. And the doctor is just a product of that environment. And if they see someone who's suffering, they are going to try to treat that in a way that they have been taught to do. But it did really stick with me when I brought up to one of the doctors, hey, I think I'm addicted to these medications, and I'll never forget him saying, you know, well, I've I've never had a patient become addicted to these medications. You're you're just dependent. I'm like, well, the line between dependency and addiction is is blurry at best. He also said to me, We we help people get on these medications. We don't help people get off of them. I was like, whoa, that that's kind of evil. Because these prescriptions really alter the way your brain interprets pain. It makes you so much more sensitive to pain. That's the irony of painkillers and long-term use, is that your body becomes so much more sensitive to pain, and you have to take more and more of these to treat the pain. And then you find yourself in this vicious cycle.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Let me ask you something, because you know, fortunately, I've I've never really tried any kind of opioid. I fortunately haven't had any situation where I've had a lot of pain. But I do remember when I was in pharmaceuticals, I was in pharmaceuticals for 13 years. And I remember, thankfully, I never had to promote an addictive drug, but I do remember there were certain physicians that were always prescribing the addictive drugs, you know, and it was like this mill where people would go in and get the prescription and, you know, pay the doctor for that office visit. And, you know, we always really just looked down on those doctors because we knew what was going on. I mean, that is a real interesting description that a painkiller is actually causing you more sensitivity to pain. Do you feel like maybe this medication was set up to get people addicted?

SPEAKER_02: 9:24

I cannot answer that. You know, I'm a work in progress still in my recovery, and I don't have all the answers, but I do think that, say, the Sagler family, you know, they created drugs knowing that they were highly addictive, and they helped implement the pain scale one to ten and promoted the idea of chronic incurable pain. So I think that too kind of keeps someone feeling like they're in this victim loop of like, well, it's it's chronic incurable pain. But I think that it's really easy to villainize big pharma, it's easy to villainize doctors, it's easy to villainize the drugs themselves, but they're all a product of a much bigger environment and a societal issue. And I'm just a work in progress. I don't have all the answers, but as someone who has gotten through that part of my addiction, the opioid part, I can say that they are hard as hell to come off. And I don't wish that upon anyone.

SPEAKER_00: 10:48

Well, that's why I gave you a big congratulations, because I just heard it was just one of the most difficult drugs to get off of.

SPEAKER_02: 11:10

And other substances crept in.

SPEAKER_00: 11:13

Like what?

SPEAKER_02: 11:15

Well, I can say this. I had fully gotten through all of the opioids, and I felt that I was in a good place to treat my chronic pain and try to work on some of my anxiety with cannabis. And I think that the cannabis of Bob Marley's years is much different than the cannabis, like the high octane stuff. And uh, I got really lost in that. And what had happened was I was on a tour and using using that a lot. And what happened was I ended up mixing that with steroids that I was legally prescribed and going into just going mad, like completely going into mania, going into a state of psychosis and mania.

SPEAKER_00: 12:23

Did you have hallucinations or no? I mean, what were some of the things that happened to you that you know, some people even black out, they don't even remember. What was maybe a couple things that you did that you even look back and were really shocked or maybe even embarrassed?

SPEAKER_02: 12:40

Oh, I mean, a lot. But it presented itself in the lack of situational awareness to speak, generally, a lack of need of sleep at all, you know, basically delusions of grandeur, putting myself in dangerous situations. You know, if there was a cop who was wearing a flag on his vest, I would speak very candidly to that uh policeman. I just found myself getting into situations where in this manic state, my body could not keep up with my brain, and I would act on impulses. Basically, though, you speak to people with addiction, and the common denominator is them because we talk about opioids, we talk about alcohol, talk about cannabis, amphetamines, whatever you want to talk about, the common denominator is the person using part of recovery is working through your resentments and trying to get down to the root of what made you want to use to begin with.

SPEAKER_00: 14:09

And what was that for you?

SPEAKER_02: 14:11

Well, it did start with chronic pain, and oftentimes throughout my life, it has been treating a physical ailment, and then it becomes psychological, and the wheels are in motion, and the vicious cycle starts, and you get on that wheel, and it's hard to get off it, you know. I do think that oftentimes drugs are a symptom of something else, and that it's not a moral failure upon the person who uses the substance. And I just think talking about it like me and you are right now is important because it destigmatizes the issues surrounding addiction and destigmatizes the shame, the isolation, and uh those are two things that really keep people from asking for help, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 15:13

Right. It's true. And that was the other thing you had mentioned about being psychological. I hear so many stories, and the hard part also about addiction is going through the therapy to kind of find out what the wounds you might have or what it was that your addiction was covering up or soothing you. So I was gonna ask you, were there any mental health challenges that you had before or even after your treatment, your addiction?

SPEAKER_02: 15:45

And continue to have. I'm a work in progress. And I think you know, it's okay to be a work in progress. It's okay to feel like a dumpster fire sometimes. It's okay to be a hot mess. I think we're all working on ourselves. And and as long as you can extend some grace and compassion towards yourself, it's much easier along that path. And I think early on in my recovery, I felt like it was this race that I had to sort of check all these boxes and then enlightenment, or I would be cured, or I wouldn't have cravings. But that's typically not the reality. That happens with time. The three Ts, things take time. I just don't think it's black and white, these issues surrounding addiction. It's very complicated and very individual.

SPEAKER_00: 16:49

I mean, that's why, you know, they call it a journey because you're always discovering something new, you're always managing and even changing different ways to manage whatever it is that we're all going through. I know you mentioned a time where you had some mania, but you know, there are things like depression and anxiety and ADHD or panic attacks. Were any of those things part of your journey, you know, as you were going through all of this?

SPEAKER_02: 17:21

Yeah, I think coming off of substances definitely has led to depression, and I think that's okay. And change is really hard. It's not just change, it's being open to change. And I heard once that a drunken horse thief who gets sober is still a horse thief, and I loved that because it it uh you're able to see your issues much more clearly when you peel the substances away. And there were a lot of things going on in my life leading up to going to Hazleton that contributed toward some of that mania. It's not always as easy as saying, well, this is the drugs, or it's because of this, it's because of this. I learned in early recovery that things aren't black and white, they're gray. You know, is this a test? Is this torture like going to rehab or early recovery? It's a little bit of both. And if this wasn't hard, then you probably wouldn't have needed it to begin with, right? Because if it was easy, then light bulb, then you're fine. But in a sense, it seems hard, it's a sign that you need to keep going and find an alignment in your life that's clear without substances, but it's hard. It's just hard.

SPEAKER_00: 19:03

Well, you know, one thing that stuck out to me is you said before you went to Hazleton, you Googled a quote and you found that Ozzie Osbourne said about Hazleton, you said that was a tough one. They don't fuck around. In your experience, he was very succinct about it. In your experience, would you agree or disagree with that?

SPEAKER_02: 19:29

Hazleton does not fuck around. And I learned there very early on that it is not a place that caters to uh people wanting to feel comfortable. That's not what it's about. Getting clean and sober is not about personal comfort. If you want comfort, you can go to Malibu and sit on a beach and get clean. And there's tons of rehab centers where you can do that. And I don't think one person's path needs to be like the other person's path. But Hazleton, Minnesota, is not a hold your hand, everything's gonna be okay. It's a little bit more tough love. Yeah, I think Ozzie, when he showed up to Hazleton, he was like, Where's the cocktail? You know, he thought that they were gonna help him drink like a gentleman, you know. I think that was his quote. I went to Hazleton because I was born in Minnesota, and my old drummer had gone to Hazleton, and I had actually performed at Hazleton once for an alumni event that they had. So I felt some sort of bond. I'd known that there were some um musicians who had gone there, and that was definitely not the reason I went there, but on the train ride there, yeah, I Googled Ozzie Hazelden because I had heard he had gone there and I stumbled upon that quote. And then lo and behold, I was placed in the Osborne unit. There were like heavy metal artwork and copies of the Osborns on DVD. So Ozzie became sort of this spiritual guide for the album. Pretty funny for a folk rocker from Wisconsin. Yeah, I kind of thought, well, if Ozzie can do it, I can do it.

SPEAKER_00: 21:36

There you go. That's all we're trying to do here. Nice. Yeah, Ozzy was on so many drugs. I think they had a scientific study to see how he actually was able to live, you know, as long as he did. But here's the thing about Hazleton, it's well known, but if it's tough love, I mean, what's the experience when you first get in? You know, like the first couple things that they do as far as tough love.

SPEAKER_02: 22:03

Well, I don't necessarily think tough love is always bad love. I just mean that they're pretty old school, they're no bullshit. They don't put up with people bending their rules, you know. Like for many years, people were door-dashing in meals, and then they realized that was a way that people were sneaking in substances, and there are the woods there at Hazleton, and people were meeting at the edge of the woods, and there's a famous story about Eric Clapton who swam across the lake at Hazleton to go to a bar, you know. But as far as the treatment and care there, I think it is really good. You know, staying in a room with other patients for accountability, I think things like that are good. And sticking to their meals and their programming, and there is an element to recovery which demands a bit of rigorous honesty with yourself and being a bit uncomfortable, but I think their level of care is is pretty, pretty remarkable in that the people there are loving and very educated and at the top of their field. Just the speakers that they would bring in every day was just remarkable. Everybody wants to get clean and sober, but nobody wants to do the dishes. And the dishes are the everyday maintenance work. You know, that's the hard, mundane work that comes after your recovery. But post-acute withdrawal syndrome, which can last years, which is the physical and psychological withdrawals that you have from medications. So oftentimes people think that you just sort of get sober and then it's you're good, right? So for me, I've been trying to meditate more. I've been trying to swim in Lake Michigan, take cold showers, the cold exposure therapy in the Wim Hof has been powerful for me. That's a nice way to kind of shock your system.

SPEAKER_00: 24:32

And yeah, we had an expert actually talk about the Wim Hof method. He was he was a trainer that actually trained with Wim Hof. So we had him on the podcast. So yeah, it's uh it's something a lot a lot of people do, and I think it's gotten more popular. So, how does that help you?

SPEAKER_02: 24:50

It's just a reset. You know, it's like this quick physical reset where you take 30 fast inhalations, exhalations, and you breathe out and you hold for up to two minutes. That's kind of the the longest time I've been able to do it. And then you breathe out, and then you kind of restart the process over and over and do it as many times as you want. But then in cold exposure therapy, whether that's just cold showers or cold plunges, or for me, I try to go in like Michigan as long as I can tolerate it. And it's just about slowing down your breathing, because I think a lot of people, when you get into cold water, you hyperventilate or your breathing starts to get really fast. And when you're able to slow down your breathing, you're training your mind to it's basically a stress response form of therapy. That physical work that you do in your recovery. I mean, that that's huge because it is such a physical game. There's a lot of things that you can do in in recovery, I think, to soften the blow and make it a little bit easier for yourself. But yeah, those are a few things for me: the cold exposure, breath work, meditation, trying to eat right, trying to sleep right, working out. Yeah. Those have been important for me.

SPEAKER_00: 26:35

Yeah, those are really great things to reset, you know, anxiety reduction, kind of calming your body down, and long-term benefits too, especially with meditation. Sleep is super important because you're healing, you know, during that time.

SPEAKER_02: 26:50

Remember, I wasn't withdrawing from opioids when I was at Hazleton. It was in 2019. That was when I was white knuckling and trying to get off of those, right? That was at home. But I don't know, it's kind of hell.

SPEAKER_00: 27:09

Wait, wait, so what were you being treated for at Hazleton while you were there?

SPEAKER_02: 27:14

The mania, the sort of psychosis I was in, and it was from there were multiple things, but it was mostly because I had been overdoing the cannabis big time and mixing it with steroids, and I was sick. There were other medications I was prescribed at that time. But here's the thing: when you go to a rehab facility, you're not just treating what you have, what you're coming off at that moment. You're treating the person as a whole, right? They take into account all of your past substance use, it's not just one thing. With addiction, we often oversimplify and we say, oh, well, he's an alcoholic, or he's, you know, a junkie or whatever it is. And it's it's always more complicated than that. You know, there's always more at play. But when I first was coming off of painkillers, it was very, very difficult to, you know, the basic things, eat, sleep, you know, move about. It was very, very difficult having increased anxiety and depression and all the things you hear people talk about when they come off of those meds, just feeling kind of shaky and totally off-kilter and off balance. I want to be clear too, you know, I was someone that was taking these medications typically as prescribed. I was taking them for a long period to try to treat a physical ailment. But it says on the bottle, take one with breakfast, take one with lunch, take one with dinner. And usually I didn't even do that, but it's the length that you're taking these medications, and it's like you're just putting these little band-aids all over your your issues when you're using. And they can be useful for people, and there's a lot of people suffering and struggling, and I don't want to negate that either.

SPEAKER_00: 29:36

Right. Sometimes the hardest part is, you know, going to therapy and, you know, talking about those things that issues where you put band-aids on them using addiction or other things, you know, it could be shopping, it could be sex. And you had mentioned that there were situations before you went into Hazleton that really kind of encouraged you to to go in. I mean, what were those issues that were you putting band-aids on, like the big issues that you were having to deal with at the time?

SPEAKER_02: 30:07

Oh man. One, I had a stalker at the time. It was not fun. And it definitely took its toll on me and was making me extremely paranoid. That was frightening. That was a component where I felt very uncomfortable. And I felt like I was in this fight or flight mode. And yeah, I'm kind of going back to that moment now. And I feel like I would wake up really early in the morning and just like my body would awaken to try to protect myself. And then when you're using substances that increase paranoia, you're you're getting extremely paranoid. And I think there are unresolved bits of PTSD from BMX bicycle accidents of my youth. One that I had spinal decompression surgery on, one of which I will not disclose due to its graphic content. Another really bad BMX bike accident. A lot of people want to suppress negative things. And, you know, there's that book, The Body Keeps a Score. It definitely kept the score for me. And that's that's why I say that when you go to treatment, when you go to rehab, they tend to treat the whole person, not just the addiction that is, you know, at the surface, because that addiction is typically a symptom. And I think that's really important to recognize that addiction and dependence is not a moral failure. It's oftentimes a way that someone is trying to solve a problem. And like I said, it started physical with me and it turned psychological. That's a tough spot to be in, but I think that's very, very common.

SPEAKER_00: 32:15

You know, I was talking about therapy, and you were talking about how it became psychological. I mean, what were the discoveries that you found in therapy for yourself?

SPEAKER_02: 32:27

There is unresolved trauma from bicycle accidents of my youth, and I never really wanted to sit with the uncomfortable feelings there. It sort of laid the groundwork for some of my abuse that I wanted to just push away those negative emotions. And then also just that quick fix, you know, that happens with these opioid medications. It's such a band-aid. And there have just been far too many moments in my 20s where, yes, I had back pain, but you know, if there was something going on, you put a band-aid over that. And you put a band-aid over that, and then you become a human band-aid. You become a band-aid mummy. I mean, there's a lot of things I've uncovered, and and it's like you peel back all the layers of the onion, and onions can kind of make you cry. And yeah, sometimes when you keep digging and you keep digging into your yourself, that isn't always helpful either. So in addiction recovery, there's a big emphasis on our moral defects. And I try not to focus entirely on that because I think you need a level of compassion and grace and humility and kindness with yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 33:58

Right. Well, thank you for letting me know about that.

SPEAKER_02: 34:02

I think too that oftentimes we look at people who have addiction issues, and we think, oh, well, they all had a bad childhood, or it's because of the way they were raised. And for me, it never was that. I I did have a good, a good childhood and good parents and a good family. But I have endured quite a bit of physical pain in my life. And the body keeps the score.

SPEAKER_00: 34:36

What does that mean though? The body keeps the score.

SPEAKER_02: 34:38

The body keeps the score. It means that you have trauma and pain that's stored up in your body unconsciously, and that it's there. It's there in you, whether you like it or not. So the BMX bicycle accidents I mentioned in my youth, you know, all that pain, the trauma of not just the events, but the pain afterwards and all the medications and going on and off them, it's a lot of pain that you're carrying around. I mean, you hear a lot about generational trauma, of passing down that trauma unconsciously. That's what I'm speaking of too is your body holds what it cannot handle. What you don't want to emotionally deal with, your body will physically hold on to that. And it will find ways to arise at a later date.

SPEAKER_00: 35:45

Right. You know, everybody that ends up going to to treatment and going through this psychological part, yeah, it is difficult. It's difficult and it's scary because, you know, sometimes we don't even know what's going on, and it's confusing for other people too, because we might not be acting the way that we normally act. I mean, because I've gone through depression, I've gone through anxiety, I'm doing really good now, you know. But the thing is you never know, you know, when something else is gonna crop up. And then again, time to think about managing and all that. So now that, yay, you're out of rehab, you mentioned something about cannabis, which I think is really important because I think sometimes when people talk about cannabis, especially now that it's legal in a lot of states, that it's much safer than some of the other drugs. And it can be, you know, in some circumstances, but but I've heard of other people that have actually come on the podcast that say if you take cannabis on a regular basis or too much, that you can like flip into psychosis. And, you know, you had that experience. So it's I'm just reminding people that, you know, it's not as innocent as it looks, you know, sometimes that it can really have some bad effects. So now you just got out of Hazleton not that long ago.

SPEAKER_02: 37:07

April or May of last year. So about a year and a half. I went straight from Hazleton, went on tour not long after that, and it was actually pretty great. The tour was fine, and uh I have really good support. I have a great fiance, my bandmates are all really solid, and I think that's important too.

SPEAKER_00: 37:34

Yeah, that's great. I mean, you've gotten to a point where you you have a taste of this new life for yourself. You know, what are some of the things that you find that are really different? Maybe good or bad. Things that are joyous or things that are like, oh wow, I didn't expect that.

SPEAKER_02: 37:52

Yeah, I think I've just learned that you have to work harder to feel good, you know, especially after you've kind of put your brain through this this rigmarole for a while where you're used to kind of the quick fixes. You have to work harder to feel better. And it's not all that challenging for many people to get sober, it's kind of regaining your equilibrium and sense of stability and joy outside of that. That takes work, and I am a work in progress.

SPEAKER_00: 38:30

So, last question I'm gonna ask about treatment, because I again I'm really curious about this. What are some methods that you've tried that have worked to release all that subconscious body counting? How do you do that?

SPEAKER_02: 38:46

Well, I think like my album, right? Like why we're here, you know, the album called Osborne, written in early recovery, it was extremely raw, you know, very vulnerable and very honest. That kind of felt like an atonement in a way. It's like you're paying a toll to yourself and maybe to the greater universe when you kind of create that artwork that reflects on what's been stored up inside you. And I think making art is a really powerful way to express what you've been through.

SPEAKER_00: 39:30

Do you have a final message you would give your fans or other people that are struggling with addictions, you know, as far as regaining their life again?

SPEAKER_02: 39:40

Don't waste your suffering. Just because you're going through the darkness doesn't mean that there won't be light. You can be of use to other people. You can be there for people who are going through what you're going through, and that that's of great value, you know. There's good in that. You know, I don't have all the answers, but I think that's okay too.

SPEAKER_00: 40:09

Next up, we'll talk about the Phoenix with Bill Taylor, the man in charge of the organization's sober music events. Their first event started in a little town in Vermont, and now these events are spreading across the country. Bill is also in recovery, and we'll talk about how the Phoenix is building an active sober community that thrives on connection, support, and healing while also having a ton of fun. Now let's hear Bill Taylor talk about this new sobriety shift, and while you don't need drugs or alcohol, to party hard. Can you give me a brief story on your story with addiction and recovery?

SPEAKER_01: 40:50

Yeah, absolutely. So, real briefly, I moved to New Orleans right after college. I was drawn there. I went to my first jazz fest and was just blown away by the city, by the culture, by the people. So I would say a struggle I was having, you know, with alcohol became more than that. And that went on for a number of years after Katrina. And finally in 2011, I asked for help from a musician who's a very well-known New Orleans musician, Anders Osborne, who had been sober for a couple of years. And he started me on the path to sobriety. And that relationship, that partnership with Anders has been a very significant one, both for me professionally as well as in my recovery. So once I hit that moment where I knew I needed help, it opened up a door to a whole new world that I could never have imagined because things were pretty, pretty desperate at that time.

SPEAKER_00: 41:51

You know, I hear a lot about the sober community and how it's so important to be connected to that community while you're maintaining your sobriety. And I want to get into that, but I do want everyone to know up front what the Phoenix is about.

SPEAKER_01: 42:08

Yeah, the Phoenix is a national organization. So we have a footprint all over the country. It's a sober community that focuses on activities, whether it's rock climbing or going to concerts. Now we're coming very close to reaching a million members of the Phoenix, which that's a really powerful community of people that are sober who are willing to not just support each other, but actually go out and do things together. So it ranges on activities, oftentimes depending on the area. You know, in Colorado, there's rock climbing, and it's really just about people coming together through activities they're passionate about and lifting each other up. And I think it's resonated. Like for me, when I got sober, I had no idea that there were communities out there that could lift me up and support me through that journey. I just, I knew I had an issue. I made a phone call to somebody I knew who had made some changes in his life. And then all of a sudden, these new worlds opened up to me. In my experience, it's very hard to navigate that on your own. It's finding communities of people that you can share the journey with that really allowed me to start to flourish in my sobriety. So Phoenix has been building that community over many years. And with a focus on music, relatively recently, so I've been with the organization for four years. I was really the first person to dig into the music side of it. I think music is one of the areas that we can all agree, we all share that passion on some level. It brings people together in a way that is pretty special. So being able to bring music into the community of Phoenix members has been awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 43:54

Well, thank you for doing that because any music lover can tell you that when you are at a show or a festival with a bunch of like-minded music lovers, there is something special. There's a feeling, there's an excitement, there's an understanding that doesn't even have to be talked about. And the energy that you get from the music, you know, the musicians, the artists, and what those artists also receive from the audience is really it's kind of magical, the healing that takes place. So I'm excited to hear about some of the music events on your website.

SPEAKER_01: 44:32

Just to piggyback on what you were saying as we segue into the events, I do think music is everything you just said. And I think when you really boil it down, that's what music does. But it's also can be a very hard industry to navigate. If you're a musician, you have to live a pretty grueling lifestyle, being on tour all the time, going from city to city to city. It can be a really difficult lifestyle. And there's obviously drugs and alcohol everywhere. Same thing if you're going to see music. I remember when I initially started to go see concerts again, I was scared, you know, because I would go into venues where there was alcohol everywhere and it was daunting. So I think it's really important as there becomes more of a focus on mental health, overall wellness, supporting those in recovery in this industry, making space for that is really important because it can, it can feel isolating, whether you work in the industry or you just really love going to see concerts to enter that world, especially if you're newly sober. So that's important to note. And a lot of the work we do is aimed at making sure there are safe spaces at events that people can be connected with others in sobriety when they go out and see music. Or the musicians who are out there filling our cup every night, they have the necessary support that they need while they're out on the road.

SPEAKER_00: 46:04

Right. I'm glad you brought that up. It was a lot of things that came together that really made me want to focus on the Phoenix. You know, as part of the podcast, I have a friend who is sober from an alcohol addiction, and he invited me to it was a music retreat, sort of like yoga meditation. And he told me that he only goes to sober events. And I'm like, oh wow, that's cool. You know, I would think that the joy of being at a music event and then putting on top of that the support and the atmosphere of having uh sober people around you while you're, you know, managing your sobriety would even take it to a higher level, even feeling more safe, supported, secure, and you know, all those good things.

SPEAKER_01: 46:57

Yes, right. But without the community of people that you can surround yourself with, that becomes really hard. One of the focuses we've had is saying, okay, where in the music space can we add value and help to nurture the community of people who are seeking others, you know, who are walking the same path of recovery, or even those that are, you know, dealing with mental health challenges. Where are my people out there so that I can get back to doing the things I love, whether performing music or going to see music? So we've done a lot of sober spaces at events, big events, small events. You know, we've been at the New Orleans Jazz Fest, which is a very large event. We've been at Coachella and smaller ones too. Then two years ago, we started our own substance-free festival. And this is in partnership with an organization called the Divided Sky Foundation, which was founded by Trey Anastasio from the band Fish. And we do this substance-free festival. It's called Music on the Mountain, right there in Ludlow, Vermont, right near where the treatment center is located. And it's a weekend's worth of music, no alcohol, substance-free. And our idea behind this was what if we could start doing our own events that showed how much fun people could have if you just eliminate, you know, the booze, et cetera. And it has taken off in a really powerful way. We've had thousands of people every year come to this. So we do it at like a ski resort right at the base of the mountain. We do singer-songwriter, like an in the rounds on Friday night. There's a run in the morning on Saturday, followed by a full-day festival. And then we do an acoustic brunch on Sunday morning. So this has been a really cool undertaking because it's kind of different. There, there are not many of these. Like finding music events that don't serve alcohol is not easy to do. So it was a bit of a leap of faith in year one, but we got our concept after that first year. Then this past spring, it was just, it was just beautiful. So trying to show people, like create environments for people where they feel safe. It's almost like if you remove the alcohol, the goal is can we still have the same experience, same fun, same vibe, the joy, and all that? And the answer to that question is yes. I think the biggest win about this event is that you don't even feel like you're missing it. It's like a non-issue because it is such a wonderful experience.

SPEAKER_00: 49:42

Well, the funny thing is, is you know, people grow up with these ideas on what it means to have fun. And maybe their family history or maybe, you know, just the tagline sex, drugs, and rock and roll, might equate to them, hey, this is what I need to do in order to have fun.

SPEAKER_01: 49:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:00

But we don't even consciously think about it sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_01: 50:03

I mean, no, we we we grow up with that sort of ingrained in our thinking.

SPEAKER_00: 50:07

Right. It's everywhere. So the thing that I found with a lot of people that I've asked this is, you know, what is sober partying like now? And you know what? All of them say it's so much better because I'm clear, I can express my emotions and be with my friends and be present instead of being clouded or maybe distracted by you know, drugs and alcohol or whatever it is. So I could see where that's a shift in thinking. But I think once you're on board and you experience it, you realize, hey, there's something to this.

SPEAKER_01: 50:50

Yeah. The shift is an important, that's an important word that you use because we talk about more broadly at the Phoenix about creating a movement. So it's not just for people who are, you know, straight up sober. It's for anybody that is on board with being supportive of this experience. Like everybody has a loved one or a friend, or, you know, they're in some way touched by alcoholism and addiction. It's just everywhere in our society. So by providing sort of an on-ramp for people to do something about that, to support their loved ones or seek the help they need or find the community they need, it's so important. It's so important. And having these experiences where we bring people together, we talk about in the music industry, like, what would a paradigm shift look like? What you said, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Maybe there's another way to look at this music world that tilts a little more in the direction of why don't we support each other? Why don't we focus on wellness and healing? That's what music does. That's at the heart of it, I think, or that connects us so deeply to music is that it gives meaning to our lives. So more and more we're looking at our work as hopefully being a part of a paradigm shift in the industry and then more broadly as well in society. But I think music and musicians and artists really help shape our culture in the world we live in. It's been that way for a very long time, maybe forever. They help shine a light on the issues we're dealing with. They speak the truth, they connect us to our souls and to one another. And the idea that maybe this music world could shift a little bit, you know, and the focus can be really on the art and the connection and the community rather than I need to go out and blow it out with drugs and alcohol.

SPEAKER_00: 52:48

Well, you know, as you were talking, it made me think that, you know, there really should be a new tagline instead of sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

SPEAKER_01: 52:56

We need to come up with one.

SPEAKER_00: 52:57

Yeah, and I'm not trying to damper anyone's party, but you know, we want to keep people safe. We want people to live long enough so that they can enjoy all these moments, you know, being clear. And one thing that you mentioned as you were talking about their festival is predictions are often a symptom of a deeper problem, but it's somebody's choice for a solution. An unhealthy choice. So talking about mental health, like how does that play a part with the Phoenix?

SPEAKER_01: 53:29

Well, I mean, I think it's just deeply connected. What you just described, that oftentimes drugs and alcohol are somebody's solution to deeper problems, you know? Everybody's story is different. I should start by saying that. I know that was the case for me. I can certainly speak for myself that that was a solution that I turned to because I didn't have a better one. And luckily, I found one through community, through recovery. So I think you can't separate addiction from mental health. To me, they are they are deeply intertwined. So it's very much a part of it for us. But I know in the music world that both mental health and addiction, you know, those challenges are everywhere. Everywhere. And one of the things we also do, now this gets back to the guy Anders Osborne that I mentioned. After I got sober, I was sober a couple of years, he reached out to me and said, Hey, I have an idea for a program that would support musicians who were having to get on the road and tour, who are in early recovery, who are struggling. You know, that first year of recovery is often very hard, almost always. And it was called Send Me a Friend, which is the name of one of his songs. And we created a national network of people who had a year plus sobriety who were basically on call to go support musicians at their shows who needed help. And this was based on Anders' experience in early recovery when he had some people who had long-term sobriety. They would come to his concerts and just be there for him. So we brought that program to the Phoenix. And this is an example, I think, on the music making side. I often try to like illustrate how hard that life is because a lot of us go to concerts and see a band perform and it looks very glamorous, right? Seeing somebody on stage rocking out. But the reality is that lifestyle is city to city to city, night after night after night, on a bus, eating poorly, staying oftentimes in not very nice places, like rinse, repeat over and over again. And if you are prone to addiction or have challenges related to mental health, that's going to exacerbate it. That is not a lifestyle that is conducive to healthy living.

SPEAKER_00: 56:06

But, you know, while we were doing the interview, he was very hesitant to share his story. And I, you know, I kept like, you know, trying to dig, trying to dig, and I'm thinking, oh gosh, this is a recovery story. And he seems to be really hesitant to share details. But then I realized when he told me that he was only a year out from being at Hazleton, Betty Ford, I realized that he wasn't comfortable yet. He was still processing the whole experience. And sometimes it's hard to it's hard to share when you're so close to it still. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01: 56:48

I think very much so. Yeah. I mean, if you think a lot of people who got sober spend years and years and years, you know, actively using whatever their substance of choice might be. So to think that, you know, one gets sober and all of a sudden life becomes, you know, rainbows and lollipops is not realistic. So I think a lot of us, most of us, have to undergo a real transformation. It's a major life shift. And it's a beautiful life shift. But finding your community, finding your people, becoming comfortable with yourself again in a different way, figuring out how to enter new environments, you know, whether it's work or going to concerts or, you know, going to a party, these things for me, it took me years before I felt truly okay with it. You know, and that's part of the journey of recovery, I think. It takes time. And so I'm almost 14 years into this. It's just, you know, a part of who I am. And I'm kind of an open book with my recovery. But it wasn't always that way, that's for sure. I was really self-conscious and scared for a while.

SPEAKER_00: 58:01

Yeah. I mean, it's it's understandable for someone to feel that way, you know, going through traumas actually, sometimes having to emotionally get down deep into what's maybe causing an addiction or changing routines, changing friends. I mean, there's so much that you have to adjust to. And then on top of that, you know, Trapper would say, I'm a work in progress.

SPEAKER_01: 58:27

The goal is for recovery to be fun, right? Like that's when the magic happens. When you recognize, wait a minute, if I make this change and I've surround myself with the right people, my life can be more full than I ever imagined. Wow. That's the real good stuff there. So finding ways to connect with the Phoenix with almost a million people that have found each other through that organization. I would say come check us out at thephoenix.org. We also have an app called New Form. All of our programs are free. There's no cost to join. And I would encourage everybody that is listening to check out what's available. You know, I do think everybody's sober experience is finding what works for you and surrounding yourself with a community of people that you're on the same page with. And this is a great way to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 59:27

A big thank you to our musical guest, Trapper Shep, and our expert, Bill Taylor of the Phoenix. For more information on Trapper Shep, his tour, and his latest album, Osborne, visit Trappershep.com and also stay tuned to listen to a clip of Trapper's song Satan is Real, Satan is a Sackler at the end of our episode. For more information on the Phoenix and their sober events, visit the Phoenix.org. And for the largest online list of free and affordable mental health Help in Addiction Recovery Solutions, visit Check Your Head Podcast.com. Also, be our friends and like us on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help and addiction recovery you need.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:19

They took all my joy, they took all my laughter, they took all the hope. The child could be the after. They started it all. They started the battle that I want to do.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:11

Visit Check Your Head Podcast.com where we have over 100 solutions for mental help. Be our friends on social media at Check Your Head Podcast. Watch us on YouTube and support us with a kind donation on CheckYourhead Podcast.com. Check Your Head Podcast is sponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit with all donations being tax deductible. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.