Jesse Leach (Killswitch Engage, Times of Grace): Toxic Relationship Recovery, Living w/Anxiety & Depression w/Dr. Dan Reidenberg (Suicide Prevention, SAVE.org)

Mari Fong interviews musical guest Jesse Leach of Killswitch Engage, Times of Grace and The Weapon, and suicide prevention expert Dr. Dan Reidenberg of SAVE.org. Jesse Leach talks about how a toxic relationship triggered his anxiety and depression, how he came to realize the abuse, and what it took  for him to finally break away. 

Jesse talks about his mental health solutions which include therapy, micro-dosing, and power of nature. Next, world-renowned suicide prevention expert from SAVE.org, Dr. Dan Reidenberg, talks about how to spot the warning signs of someone who may be at risk for suicide. We also talk on what to do and say to that person that could possibly save a life. We play a clip of “The Burden of Belief,” the new single from Times of Grace’s album, Songs of Loss and Separation which dropped in July 2021. 

“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free or affordable mental help, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast. The podcast where notable musicians and experts share their stories and solutions for mental health and wellness. I'm your host, Mari Fong, a music journalist and life coach for musicians. And today I wanted to start by giving a special thank you to all the listeners of the Check Your Head podcast. Thank you so much for being a listener and for your reviews. Now to our featured guests. Have you ever been in a bad relationship where you felt unappreciated, put down, or were fighting so much that you were constantly anxious or depressed? Our musical guest has been in that relationship and finally found his solutions to separate from toxic people, along with ways to soothe his anxiety and depression to find a better, happier life. Our musical guest today is a veteran in the metalcore scene, a band with eight studio albums and over four million records sold. Grammy nominated and considered one of the early founders of metalcore music. Our guest today is Jesse Leach, lead singer and guitarist of Killswitch Engage and Times of Grace. Jesse will not only share his solutions for mental wellness, but also a clip from The Burden of Belief, a single from the New Times of Grace album entitled Songs of Loss and Separation that dropped on July 16, 2021. Next, our featured mental health expert is an internationally recognized leader and educator on the topic of suicide, Dr. Dan Reidenberg. Dr. Dan is also the Executive Director of SAVE.org, which stands for Suicide Awareness, Voices of Education. Dr. Dan will share some of the warning signs for someone who may be at risk for suicide, and also what we can do and say that can possibly save a life. But first, let's hear Jesse Leach of Killswitch Engage and Times of Grace share his story. I want to congratulate you on this new album, Songs of Loss and Separation. It sounds really personal to you.

SPEAKER_04: 2:35

Times of Grace, man. That record, I would have to say it's probably my best work to date, if I could be so bold to say such a thing. And potentially a good therapy for people who are suffering, because I know it was good therapy for me. For Adam and I, we were both going through a a difficult time. Adam was dealing with depression, and we were both dealing with loss as well, which is really ironic that the name of the title is the same. But yeah, I was going through a pretty brutal divorce and just realizing that you don't need somebody in your life anymore after many years of being together. So that was part of it. And unraveling and rediscovering who I was alone, that entire process is captured on this record, as well as coming out on the other side, finding a light at the end of the tunnel. Because the process of making this record was Oh, about a year and a half, two years. We really take our time with this project because it is such personal music and we couldn't have it any other way. I don't think we could write a Times of Grace record without some sort of tragedy or something heavy to go through. And that's the beauty of this project. I'm very proud of it. And part of that is just it's therapeutic to just let it out and also to think that people will hopefully find something to relate to and find their own therapy through this music.

SPEAKER_00: 3:57

Well, you said something really great, which is letting it out. And that feels good to be honest and open and vulnerable. And oftentimes that's difficult when you're dealing with mental issues and mood disorders, because sometimes we can be embarrassed or sometimes we feel like, gosh, I don't even feel like myself right now. I don't even want to go outside and talk with people because I could barely talk myself. But that also connects people, that honesty and

SPEAKER_04: 4:26

Yeah, I think it's important because I find for me those times when I hear somebody say something I can relate to and I don't feel so alone, that's a huge thing. That's huge. Because it almost gives you a bit of an exhale amidst what you're going through. You're reading something or hearing somebody say, yeah, I get this. It's such a relief. And I've been through that so much. I continue to go through that. That's why for me, it's something important to share, whether or not it's comfortable to do so.

SPEAKER_00: 4:54

Yeah, I was reading, you were saying that loneliness and disconnection of not feeling like anyone understands, and then finally finding those people that do. Where did you find those people for yourself as you're going through this mental health journey? I

SPEAKER_04: 5:11

think it all started for me as a... teenager getting into hardcore music and punk rock and eventually metal as well just the social misfits especially back then in the early 90s before the internet was all over the place when you really if you were disconnected you really felt disconnected you know and going to a therapist back then that wasn't really something that was I mean it's still an odd thing but it's a lot more in the public dialogue than it was back then so if you felt like an outcast you were pretty outcast it's like There was no online forum. There was nothing to reach out to. And the stigma behind calling a suicide hotline is like, that's not me. I would never do that, even though at times I was suicidal. So finding punk rockers and hardcore kids and even ravers, just subcultures, kids who were into subcultures, they were the misfits. Those are the people that you could go out and have a lot of fun with and do crazy stuff with and be yourself. Be that person that doesn't fit into the norm of Johnny and Susie High School. I never... got along with any of those normal type of people. I didn't get it. I wasn't into sports. I wasn't into going to dances and doing all that stuff. I didn't get it. I didn't fit in. So subcultures really was my start. But I didn't develop an actual language or even admit to myself that I was having issues till probably my 30s. And that's when I started to start to lose it a little bit. And right around that time, I started to see people, organizations coming up. The more I dug online, the more I found. I think just learning what was going on inside of my head, having a language for it, that was the start of everything. And it's a journey that I continue to go on to this day and help me feel like I'm not alone. And I'm so not alone. There's so many of us are affected by mental illness and addiction and whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

Yeah, absolutely true. And it's not something that normally would come up in conversation, but it's something that's so important to talk about, especially when you recognize symptoms or behaviors or words from others that can tip you off that something is not quite right. And you said that there was a turning point in your 30s. It sounds like almost forced you to look at what was going on. What was that experience? incident or time in your life about?

SPEAKER_04: 7:34

Yeah. In retrospect, it was definitely something that had to do with my relationship at the time that was causing anxiety. Because not all anxiety... Listen, people have disorders and mental illness. We all know this. But sometimes you have outside sources that those things. And I was being triggered a lot by somebody who was pretty toxic for me, somebody that just wasn't right for me. I wasn't supposed to be with that person. And the energy that person was giving off was causing me a ton of anxiety to the point where suicide seems like an option because you're so tortured by it. You just want peace. And to get to that point where you are sort of accepting the That taking yourself out would be an option. That's when you know you're in a rough spot. There's so many other ways I know now to cope with it or to sever relationships or to have enough self-love to just pick yourself up and move on. But when you're in the midst of a toxic or abusive relationship, It's hard to see outside of it. And I knew things were starting to unravel for me back then. And that's when I just reached out for help to friends, to people that I knew were in my community, in the hardcore and metal community, that were saying to people, it's okay to not be okay. For example, it's one of the hashtags that is used for my friend Johnny and Hope for the Day. And I started to see my peers speaking up about it. So it became... a necessity. And then after that necessity, I saw it as very much something I needed to do, not just for myself, but for others. And I did that through my lyrics as well. I started to really inject mental health issues into my lyrics with Kill, Switch, Engage and Times of Grace around that time. And since then, I've written a ton of songs. I mean, one that I've got tattooed on my arm here, I Am Broken Too, which is the anthem for letting people know that you're not alone. And initially just Being forced into that situation where I was so desperate for release, so desperate to figure out what the hell was going on with me and why I was having this chronic anxiety, which led to depression, which led to suicidal thoughts and almost fantasizing about the peace that death would give me. Yeah, that's when I knew I had some real heavy issues to deal with.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

I do understand what you're saying because when you're in a lot of pain and nobody... to see it from the outside or nobody seems to understand it. You just want the pain to stop. And sometimes when you're in that dark place, you feel like I've tried everything and nothing is working, but there's always hope and there's always solutions. And that's it is that sometimes we don't know what those solutions are, but you talked about something I thought was really important was that you were in a toxic relationship to the point where it was being abusive. And I'm bringing this up because I think this happens a lot.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:37

Why do you think you stayed in that relationship for so long to the point where you were having suicidal thoughts?

SPEAKER_04: 10:45

Yeah, it's really hard. At the time when I was going through it, it's crazy because you have this trauma bond with this person. What you think is love is your definition of love is so warped at that point. Because for me, it was 18 years with this person. This isn't just a couple of years. This is like a half a lifetime. And the things that go on that are unhealthy, you're so used to them. So it's almost like, oh, this is what it's like to be in a marriage or a relationship. This is what happens. And I didn't speak much about that stuff. But the more I started to talk to people and the more I started to speak with other people who were in similar situations, you realize, oh, this isn't what everybody does. And then I started to see other relationships in a different light and started to realize how much work and how much pain was being caused. I think when you're abused, You're just that. You're abused. It's hard to see outside of that. And then when you finally pull out of it, you look back and there was a good chunk of time after my separation and divorce where I was like, how? How did I stay that long? How? And I still can't come to grips with it. So it's really hard to answer that question. But that just goes to show you when you're abused, sometimes you don't realize how bad it is till you get out. And that's the scary part. I know people that have gotten put in the hospital by their spouses. bloody in the hospital, still making excuses for the behavior. And thankfully with my relationship, it wasn't physical for the most part, the abuse, it was more mental, but it does a number on your head. It really messes you up. And if you already are dealing with mental illness and then you're in a relationship that's toxic with somebody who's triggering you constantly, it gets pretty dark and you get really confused. What's right, what's wrong, what's up, what's down. You forgive chronic behaviors that after so many times, it's not a mistake anymore. Yeah, all those things compounded. You just get into this really fragile, strange state where I was finding excuses using language that was very defensive when the talk of what's going on with me came up. So it's something I had to really deprogram and unravel from. And I still sift through those issues and I still have issues with anxiety and trust issues. Like that's still there. It's just learning how to deal with them and allowing yourself to, to relax a little bit and to trust and to find peace again. So it's been quite a journey, but yeah, that's a difficult question to answer. And I'm sure many people who deal with abuse would say the same thing. You're kind of just blind to it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:26

Yeah. You know, it reminds me of one of your songs, which is Medusa. And you say it's about an abusive, broken relationship. And one of the things you said is keeping your heart and spirit alive after feeling broken and beaten down. You know, I know your life is different now because you just mentioned you have a girlfriend.

SPEAKER_02: 13:49

Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 13:50

yeah. How did you keep your heart and spirit alive after that separation and so many years of that?

SPEAKER_04: 13:58

Yeah, I think... my sort of survival skills started to kick in, I would say, years before the actual divorce and split up, on tour with my band, Living My Dream. That's something that really helped, number one, pursuing my dreams and being out there traveling and being around my friends, seeing new things every day, change of scenery. That whole lifestyle is beautiful. It can be great for your mental health, as tough as it can be. On the flip side, if you've got a great home life and you miss your home life, if you're out there escaping something, it's pretty amazing. So that helped. And then the days off in random cities or towns or countries, I would really take my time and do what I wanted to do. So I would escape and have me time. And I would take myself out to dinner. I started to find self-love. I started to figure out who I was despite my scars and despite my abuse. And it sounds cheesy, but the only way I can say this is I started to fall in love with who I am and realizing that, yeah, I do deserve good love. I do deserve all these things. You know, I learned very quickly that I had to find self-love. And that's truly what led me to finally putting my foot down and going, I'm done with this. So it was years of just figuring out who I was and learning how to love myself again and giving me the strength to just be like, no, I'm not putting up with this anymore. Once I started to say that out loud, I saw the spiral happen. She went one way, I went the other. And I was like, you know what? Good. You know, there was a moment, and Medusa's is about this. There was a moment where it was just staring me in the face. I was looking in the eyes of this demonic energy, if you will, and saying to myself, you're not going to kill me. I'm not going down with you. I'm out. I'm out. And the spoken word part in that song Medusa's directly about that. Seeing the situation for what it truly is and not having that film of abuse or that film of guilt or Whatever the case may be, when you're carrying it with you for so long, when it's lifted off of your eyes and you see it for what it is. And to me, Medusa was a perfect analogy for like, whoa, my heart is turning into stone. I'm becoming a dark figure because of this. And I won't let that happen. So at the end of Medusa, you won't kill the love in me. From demon eyes, I'm finally free. You won't kill the love in me. It's just... The whole song is dark and right at the end there, when I had to scream that line, I couldn't just sing it. It was like, I'm free. I'm out. And that's one of the best decisions I've made in my life. And that did lead me to where I'm now, where this is the happiest I've ever been that I can remember. And I'm with somebody who is amazing and builds me up and challenges me and has been through the ringer herself with her issues and her relationships. So we both met as broken human beings in a very dark place and very quickly found love and we are both doing great. It's amazing what actual love and trust and someone who supports you can do for you. So it's been a hell of a journey, but I couldn't be happier and I wouldn't change a thing. As crazy as she got, it made me who I am, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 17:26

Well,

SPEAKER_00: 17:29

I'm really glad that Your life is different now that that was the light at the end of the tunnel is finding a better relationship and realizing that these things that are broken with us actually provide the color within people. It provides part of their personality and provides also compassion. And one thing that you said was you found compassion. the love for yourself and get out of a relationship because of the love that you found for yourself. I do think that's the core to a lot of issues in life. And some people never get out of that. They never learn to love themselves or forgive themselves. How were you able to do that for yourself? Was that something you did on your own? Was that something you realized or therapy or how did you come to that conclusion?

SPEAKER_04: 18:20

Yeah, it's a mixture of things. The first thing that I did that really helped me was riding my bicycle. So it sounds funny, but anyone who knows, exercise is incredible for the brain. And I've never been a guy that can just go to a gym and stare at a mirror and pump iron. I can't do that, just not who I am. I'm a nature guy. So I actually found an old 10-speed bicycle while recording the first Times of Grace record in the back of the studio in Western Mass, like halfway in the stream and in the woods, just overgrown. It was this old bicycle. 10 speed, probably from the 80s, like just a huffy, like not a good bike at all. And I took it home. I don't know. It was just something about it. I was walking, writing lyrics, and I saw it. I'm like, I'm going to take this home and fix it up. I remember that first bike ride. I'm in tears, and I feel like a kid again. It was this moment of like, why have I not been riding bikes for– This is amazing. And where I used to live in Yonkers, New York, there was a huge bike trail. And I just started doing that bike trail. Every other day when I would start to feel anxiety or panic or anything pop up, I would get on this bike trail. And I'd go further and further. And finally, I was doing 20 miles, and I ended up buying a nice bike. And that became such a buzz, the endorphins that kicked in. I'd get off these bike rides, and my anxiety would dissipate. I felt better. I felt stronger physically. And that sort of translated into mentally as well. And that was the first thing that I was like, oh, this is good for me. This is a healthy habit that I need to make. Instead of drinking myself into a black hole, which I was definitely self-medicating a lot during this time. And it actually reduced my desire to drink too. So cycling has stuck with me to this day. I did it last week when I was feeling off and it really helped, especially with anxiety. It's huge for anxiety. Depression, that's hard because sometimes... I won't even make it out the door to get to my bike on those dark days because I still suffer. My life is good, but my mental illness didn't go anywhere. I still have to manage it and deal with it. For me, if I go into a dark thing, it might take a week to come out. It's hard. So physical activity is huge. And then starting to talk to friends who have been through similar situations. And that did eventually lead me to a therapy session, which was one of those mind-blowing moments when I sat with somebody who was educated. and empathetic and caring, but also firm and just speaking about it, having a conversation that's ongoing, reading about it, researching, and again, exercise, swimming, hiking, biking, things that just really help reset my brain.

SPEAKER_00: 20:59

It takes a while for someone to get from a mood disorder to getting therapy. Was there something in particular that happened that said, okay, I'm making the call. I'm going to try this out. What was that for you?

SPEAKER_04: 21:15

Yeah. And it's funny too, because I actually made it public. I mean, there were articles written about it. I had just moved up here from Brooklyn. I was living in Brooklyn, New York, and I moved up here where I live now in Woodstock up here in the Catskill Mountains. It was the first weekend I was alone and I went out to do a hike and And I had this moment of darkness once again, where I was looking down this waterfall and thinking to myself, yeah, this might be the way to do it. And I was back there again to that dark place where, you know, but it was different this time. There was something there. There was a different voice of like, no, look where you are. Like you're in this beautiful place. There is beauty. There's more like life has so much to offer you. What do you want to call that? God, divine intervention, or, you know, I don't know what it was, but it, I wasn't alone at that moment. I know I wasn't. And that's when it just dawned on me. I was like, why have I never done this therapy thing? I've got to reach out. So I reached out for help. And thankfully, where I live, there's a bunch of healers, whether you're talking about sound therapy, which I did, singing bowls, I did acupuncture, I did massage therapy, and then I finally went to see and talk to an actual therapist. recommended by another healer here. And I said, I'm going to do all of it. Any suggestion somebody gives me to figure out how to move forward with my life, I'm going to do it. I'm not naysaying it anymore. I'm not going, I got this. I just surrendered. And I said, whatever someone puts in front of me, I will do it. So I did all of it. And all of it was incredible. Acupuncture, eh, not so much. It was a little weird. A little uncomfortable, but apparently it's great for you. So that one therapist just changed everything. In a very quick amount of time. Thankfully for me, the first one was the right one. And it blew my mind. And I walked out of there sobbing for joy because I felt this relief. Somebody who validated what I went through and gave me a language, like the word abuse never entered my mouth. And she said, you have been abused. You're mentally abused. The way you're speaking, I can tell somebody who really has beaten you down. She used better words than that, but... That was one of those aha moments like, I'm an abused spouse. That sucks. And it's funny where society doesn't normally put males in that category. Usually, it's the female. And for me, it was like, I had to own that. And I remember going online and being like, hey, I just sent all my fans. I'm going away. I'm not going to be on social media because I was super active back then. And I just announced it. And I wasn't embarrassed about it. People made fun of me. I'm sure there was snickering. I read a few articles that were like, he's lost it. But the amount of people that empowered to actually go see a therapist and to say that they're not okay, it was one of those earth-shattering moments where I'm like, oh, I've got to do this more. I've got to keep talking about this. When I came out of the therapist's office, I was like, that's it. From now on, I call myself a mental health advocate. I'm going to talk about this. I'm going to work with organizations. When someone asks me to volunteer time, I'm going to do it. So I haven't said no to any opportunity that I've had to continue to talk about mental illness. And it's been so rewarding, not only just for my own walk, but friends and family, people that I grew up with that would reach out to me and say, hey, because of you, this is what I did. And I've been dealing with depression for 25 years. I didn't know what it was. So stuff like that, it just constantly keeps coming back around to remind me that this is important. And I've got to do it. And I love to do it. It's so fulfilling. I go to bed at night thinking, at least I'm pitching in. It really helps my mental state of mind to know that I'm helping. And in turn, that helps me. It's a win-win situation.

SPEAKER_00: 25:35

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I feel the same way. I feel very passionate about it. Because when you've been in a really dark place, and you come out of it, and you do find your solutions like you have, you want to give that to somebody else, because you know how much it can hurt. You don't want anyone to go through that. You know, I read something that I thought was interesting. You said that your grandfather probably had bipolar, but it was put under the rug. And then In high school, you started to go through some hormonal changes and were going through high highs and some low lows. Did you ever feel like you might've been having symptoms of bipolar or was that ever something that crossed your mind?

SPEAKER_04: 26:16

So as far as my grandfather's concerned, I couldn't figure out why grandpa would just go into his room and watch TV for weeks. And then he'd come out and he'd put on like a summer dress because he was a funny guy. He was a champion water skier and he'd get on water skis and go around the pond where my grandparents live with a dress on and pass out frozen Snickers bars to the kids. He was the life of the party and then he would just disappear. So the high highs and low lows. So I started to go through that, but When I was going through high school, the amount of drugs I was putting into my body, I wouldn't have known what was going on with me because I was self-medicating for a long time with not just marijuana and drinking, but like psychedelics, like lots of acid. So I didn't know what way it was up for a long time there. I think that hindered my growth. But I look back on that and I don't regret any of that either because I discovered so much about myself. Bipolarism is something I've been concerned with, but I am not bipolar. And if I am, it's minor. I'm depressive and anxiety. But it does run in my family, and some of my family members do have it.

SPEAKER_00: 27:29

Submedication is something that happens often, and also medication is something that can happen. Was there ever any trial and error for you with medication?

SPEAKER_04: 27:39

Yeah, I briefly tried medication for depression. I just... Didn't like the way it made me feel. And I didn't give it more of a chance. I've got friends who, if they're not on it, it's bad. It's dangerous. And they have found the right dosage where they don't get numb. See, I was feeling numb too much. And I didn't want that at that point in my life. And now I don't numb anymore. I want to feel it. I want to work through it. I want to talk about it. For me, medication can either be something you stay on or something you're on temporarily just to get yourself right. And I think I probably could have benefited from staying on something for a small amount of time to sort of write myself but i never did that i think it was part of me just being stubborn like no i'm going to do it on my own which it's the long road but i'm glad i took that but that being said i've got dear friends that need that medication um dealing with more severe stuff And I've got friends who've been on it temporarily and they come off, they wean off it and the neurons or whatever have connected differently. And that's what it is too. I've been learning so much about the pathway of neurons and how the brain works and the pathway to anxiety and what makes you spiral and triggers and all these amazing terminologies that I've been learning, especially anxiety. Anxiety to me is so complex.

SPEAKER_02: 28:57

It's

SPEAKER_04: 28:57

so broad. And a lot of the behaviors that Are based off anxiety. And I never knew that I've got friends too, who get snappy and angry. And there's a whole bunch of anger that's tied to anxiety. And I never connected those dots to even just in the past couple of years. And I have a friend of mine who always loses his mind and gets so angry. And I'm like, Hey man, take it from somebody who's got it. You're dealing with anxiety. And once I gave him that language and he was humble enough to look it up, and eventually get on medication and like changed his whole world, rocked his world. Everybody knew him as this guy was just explosive and angry and don't piss him off. And now he's, he still has his moments, but for the most part, he's a pretty balanced guy. I have a very anxious brain and that's what spirals me into depression as well. So the power of getting to learn the language and knowing what works for you, whether it's medication or not medication or all those tools, like that's just, So powerful. It's so powerful.

SPEAKER_00: 30:01

It's really interesting too. I mean, we have experts come on to the podcast and I learn something new every single time I do an interview and I'm just, my mind is blown by some of the therapies and the research part that you're doing is so important because it's very individual for each person, what they're going through.

SPEAKER_04: 30:20

Totally. Yeah. I agree with that a hundred percent. And that's the beauty of talking about it. That's the beauty of being in a community of people or being online or having a podcast where you can continue that education and wisdom through experience and dealing with people and hearing other people's stories and having those aha moments where you're like, oh, I get it. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I love that we have that. And that's why this conversation is so important to continue and to normalize is because we It could potentially save lives. It could potentially save somebody from getting to that point where they're even thinking about suicide. Because there's so many things to do. There's so many options. There's so many beautiful things that can happen to you to prevent you from getting to that place. And 99% of that is just talking about it.

SPEAKER_00: 31:09

There are people that say, you know what, I'm going to do it my way. I'm doing it my way. They get very stubborn about wanting to Turn to a professional. And the thing with mental situations and mood disorders is that it's so complex. There's no way that someone can really have that kind of knowledge to deal with it. What do you say to somebody who says, you know what, I'm going to try it my way. I can do it after years and years of trying. How do you convince that person?

SPEAKER_04: 31:41

That's difficult because you've got to want the help. You can't force it. But what I would say is, to people is, would you want to spend 10 years figuring out your issues or maybe two years? The fact is, if you reach out to somebody and you're humble enough to just accept that help and give it a shot, what's the worst that could happen? You don't like your therapist and you stop or you switch. It's not that big of a deal, is it? But you could fast track this. You could truly gain so much more wisdom and reduce your suffering if you just accept some help. I think that's the bottom line with it, is how bad do you want to deal with your issues? And some people don't want to hear it, but I think if you dangle that in front of their face, if they truly are suffering and you want to alleviate that suffering... What's the backside, the dark side to just seeing a therapist? I mean, the worst case scenario is you stop seeing them.

SPEAKER_03: 32:37

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04: 32:39

People say money, and it's like, okay, well, money. I mean, how much do you care about your mental health? And that's the thing, too, is people don't prioritize. Because there comes a time when you're dealing with this where you need to put yourself first for a while. You need to be selfish because you're no good self. to the people that you love or that surround you that need you and want to know you're doing your best if you're not doing okay. And that's what I have learned to do is I have moments where I dig my heels in and I tell people I'm canceling plans. I'm not going to do this. I'm uncomfortable with this. And putting up those boundaries and protecting my mental well-being has been huge because I would just say yes to everything. And I'm a people pleaser, which is part of... my personality and I'll people please to the point where it's a detriment to my mental health and I'll start resenting people and I get angry and all these things start to happen. So once I just started to stick up for myself and that's it, you have to prioritize it. Do you really wanna get better? Do you wanna navigate this? Well, here's some things you can do. If you're gonna be stubborn about it, it might take you three or four times longer to get to where you could if you just accepted some help.

SPEAKER_00: 33:48

Right, and making yourself a priority. By taking control. And that's a hard part, too, is to take control and actually realize that I don't want to say being manipulated, but oftentimes if we don't take control, other people's wants and needs surpass our own. And that could be detrimental to us if we are not conscious of it. You know, one thing that was really interesting is you were talking about using mushrooms and micro dosing. Is that something that you still are doing and believe in?

SPEAKER_04: 34:22

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a firm believer in microdosing. And I always have to preface this with, obviously, some of that stuff is illegal, so you got to be careful with that. But just because it's illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't help. There's a lot of political reasons behind some of this stuff being illegal. But a mushroom that grows out of the ground that has been used for thousands of years by our ancestors for various spiritual practices is It is a beautiful and amazing tool if used properly. Microdosing, and a lot of people don't know, you're talking about very small amounts. We're not talking about seeing psychedelic images and losing yourself and freaking out. There's none of that at all. For example, if I'm going to go on a hike on a Saturday, I'll wake up, have my breakfast, have my coffee, and I'll take a small piece of a mushroom, a cap or a stem, small, and I'll munch on that just as I hit the trail. And within an hour and a half or so, it's this calmness that washes over you. It's not intense at all. It's just a very calm feeling. And the best way I could describe it, it's like someone's giving you a shoulder rub and you're just like, oh, there it is. So nice. And that'll last for a good couple hours. And then for the next few days... That residual stays. My social anxiety, my anxiety, it just calms down, and I see the world slightly different, and I feel more wonderment towards nature, and I feel more creative. And again, this is slight, but if you're microdosing regularly, which I have for, I would say, going on five years now, and I'll take breaks. I'll take breaks where I don't touch it at all. I'm a firm believer in it. I think it's absolutely wonderful. It can change everything and help you be more engaged, more present, more appreciative, and again, more creative. It's helped me with writer's block and I've gotten off it by microdosing. I've been in really dark places and I'll microdose and I come out of it so much quicker. than if I didn't do that. So to me, it's nature's medicine. But you got to be really careful with that. You have to know who you're getting it from. You have to know the science behind it, how much. So there's a lot that goes into it. You can't just jump in and go, yeah, I'm going to microdose. Don't. Don't take it. Because if you take too much and you're not in a good mental state, it can exacerbate that situation. So you've got to be really careful with that. But I'm a firm believer in it. I think nature provides us, whether that's cannabis, edibles. I can't smoke anything because it's my voice. But cannabis is beautiful too. certain amounts and certain strains. Do your research though, for sure. And then be careful of the legalities.

SPEAKER_00: 36:56

Yeah, there's definitely things you have to think about there. Now you mentioned edibles also. Is that something that you do on occasion or how does that play a part with your mental health?

SPEAKER_04: 37:08

Yeah, that's definitely on occasion. Because with marijuana edibles, that can cause anxiety big time for me. So I have to know what strain it is, how many milligrams. That stuff is super important because some of the worst feelings in places I've ever been were for taking too many and too high of a dosage in the wrong type of edible. That can be bad if you've got anxiety. It can cause panic attacks, which it did for me. So yeah, when I find the right dosage and the right edible, because I've experimented with a bunch of different types, and I like to make it myself too if I can. Because I like to make sure it's organic, doesn't have chemicals in it. There's so many factors that go into this, but I try to be as healthy as I can. So recently, a friend of mine gave me these little caramel ones. They're really nice, and I just bite like a little one-fourth piece off, and it's just perfect. It's just a nice, warm, fuzzy, relaxed feeling. Anxiety goes away. I'm thinking clearer. I have aha moments. It's really good medicine. but it's different for everybody. So it's trial and error for sure. And I would always say start small. So everything in moderation, I believe that's where I'm at these days, everything in moderation.

SPEAKER_00: 38:21

Yeah, that's good advice. You know, one thing I read was that when you were going through your depression and anxiety, that you would mention it to people and they would say things like, Oh, snap out of it. It's not that bad. You're overreacting. All of those things that can be so hurtful when you're not doing well. If somebody came up to you today and said that to you, like, I'm not feeling well. I feel like I'm depressed. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04: 38:52

Talk to me about it. What's going on? Sit there and listen. I've had those moments. I've had those moments with the fans and it stops me in my tracks. And I'm like, okay. I'm going to make time right now. That's happened to me where I will say out loud because this person's saying it out loud. Give me a few minutes, guys. I'll get to everybody. And within two to five minutes, just that person telling their story, you can almost see the exhale. Like they just needed to share that. And sometimes that's all it is. It's just listening. And you don't always have to give advice. You don't always have to try to fix it. And that's something I had to learn. It's something I'm still learning. Being present to someone when they're speaking. without the, you're ready to say something, you're ready to counteract, you're ready to argue, you're ready to fix or give advice. Most people do that. I was definitely, I'm still partially one of those people. I stop myself and I look at their face and I watch their body language and I just, I'm present. And then I will interject with things, letting them know I'm listening. Yeah, I hear you. Oh man, that's terrible. That stuff is powerful. If you're just listening to somebody talk, That could be the difference between a really bad night and a night where they're like, oh, I'm not so alone here. And if it's a dear friend, spend the evening with them, go take them out to dinner. And it's important to give people that time if you can, because that could make a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00: 40:21

Right. It not only shows you care, but it allows them to let out. everything that they've been holding in and just like when you go to a metal show or one of your shows kids are going nuts they're in the mosh pit that's a release at a show it's a physical release it's an emotional release but listening to somebody is a release of what's honestly going on with them. And I do think that once we're really honest with ourselves and honest with somebody else that is caring and compassionate, that really can make the difference between somebody getting help and even going for another day. Because depression does bring along thoughts, suicidal thoughts. Whether we like it or not, it's part of the condition. And if we start believing those thoughts, of course it could be fatal. And we don't want that. We don't want to believe those thoughts that really are lies that depression is telling you.

SPEAKER_04: 41:20

Yeah, 100%. Because when you go through those situations and you come out of them and you look back on them, there's a part of you that doesn't understand how you got there. You're like, how did I get to that point? And I think that's been the whole journey for me is understanding how you get to that point and how you can prevent getting to that point. And suicide is the end game. There's no turning back from that. There's no turning back. You can do stupid things. You can make poor decisions and learn your lesson. But with suicide, it's like there's no lesson to be learned. That's it. So that's, to me, been my biggest motivator for speaking up is trying to prevent people from that. And then you get to somebody who is in that dark place, finds the way out. They become... a catalyst for change. They become somebody who's going to help the next person. That's the beauty of the people I meet in this field, is there's so much compassion and love. Some of the sweetest, most kind-hearted, amazing, solid human beings are people who work in the mental health field and have become friends of mine. They're like-minded people. And that's what's beautiful about it. If you're driven by demons to this dark place, and you find your angel to help pull you up out of it, you're going to spread the word. You're going to be like, oh, there is help. I got help. You can get help. Here's how it works. Let's talk about this shit. That's powerful. And it's an energy that continues to reciprocate. And once you get into that energy, that beautiful reciprocated energy of people who work in the mental health field, it's addictive. You want to be around these people and you want to help because it just fulfills your soul. It's a beautiful cycle that starts once you're pulled out of that dark place and you see the light, you can't not talk about it. It's like being born again, Christian, you know, I can't stop talking about Jesus. Like I get it. Yep. I get it.

SPEAKER_00: 43:13

Yeah. And what you're saying about give and take is the perfect thing with anything you love really is this beautiful give and take, you know, giving and receiving that can also relate to, you know, loving partner and friendships and things like that. And There are times in our life where we thought something was a good friend or something was good for us. And it may have been at one point, but things change. People change or things get clearer to you. You change and people may be detrimental to us to be able to recognize that and part with them. And it's hard. I think even when we part with something that is not good for us, there's grieving sometimes. Because it was part of our life for a long time. And having to go through that process and come out of it and be a better person and have better experiences is really the part that makes it all worth it, right?

SPEAKER_04: 44:14

Yeah, that and protection of yourself. The whole learning to read the signs with friendships, especially new friendships, which I'm very wary when I make new friends. But when you've got people who are latching on to you that... are not contributing to your friendship. I call them vampires, bloodsuckers, these people who just, they just drain you. And I've had enough of those people in my life and through my circle of friends where you just get to that point where you just can't, you can't invest energy in that anymore. And as difficult as it is, you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but you just can't do it. I think a lot of people struggle with that. We all have those people in our lives that are just, they're not good for you. And the best thing you can do is, especially if you're suffering, is cut them off. And it sounds cruel, but man, some of the best decisions I've ever made are just deading people. Like, I don't wish you harm. I'm not angry. Just go. Go that way. I don't need it anymore. Easier said than done, but what a crucial power move it is for your soul. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:19

You've talked a lot about your life, and I want to focus on how you are today and what makes you happy.

SPEAKER_04: 45:27

Yeah, I was talking about this recently. Time. It's something that I've always taken for granted, especially when you have a life that is nonstop. The life of a touring musician... you can't catch your breath. You're out for a month and a half, two months, you're back for two weeks, and you're back out for two months, three months. As amazing as that is to somebody who's going through it, and then people from the outside being like, you live the ideal life, rock star, I get all of it. I get it, but it's tough. It's really tough. And you miss out on so many things, so many moments. And one thing I was saying right before The world shut down and I was forced to stay home. I remember venting to my girlfriend with tears in my eyes saying, all I want to do is just be here long enough to watch the seasons change. I want to see winter turn to spring. Something so simple and it seems so funny to some people, but I want enough time to watch a season change. And little did I know, I would get my wish. And at first, it was hard to deal with because I'm so not used to staying still. And you go through the process of, wow, this is my life now. The world's going to shit. What are we going through? All the anxieties. And then I finally got to a point where I saw the seasons change. And my girlfriend reminded me, hey, do you remember what you said six months ago when you were exhausted from the road? Here you are. And it was like a light bulb went off in my head. And I was like, oh, yeah. I've got time. I don't have a schedule. I don't have any tours. For now, my bills are being paid, thankfully, because I had some money put away. So there was a chunk of time where I was able to just be still and go out in nature and watch bees pollinate the flowers, birds. And I would spend hours very meditatively sitting, sitting by a stream and just listening and watching. And it became this ritual, which is very much a part of what I need nowadays. I do it on a regular basis now because I've realized what a luxury that is. Who gets to do that? You got people pulling you in all these different directions. And that was my life forever. And this past year and a half or so, I experienced for the first time, absolute, complete Zen-like stillness. And time has become such a precious thing to me. Taking moments for myself to be at peace and having a sense of gratitude for all the things that have been bestowed upon me. Those two things are super important to me now. And I will continue to practice them.

SPEAKER_00: 48:14

Hopefully we can continue these wonderful things that we've learned in the pandemic and have a nice, beautiful hybrid of being able to enjoy the outside world and also keep that inside world really nice and beautiful too.

SPEAKER_04: 48:31

That's the plan. I like that. Hybrid. I like that. I'm going to steal that. Hybrid me. I know. When I get back on the road, I'm a hybrid now. That's good. I like that. It's a gift. Every morning when we wake up, it is a gift. And if you view it as such, with gratitude in your heart, it'll change your whole day. I promise you.

SPEAKER_00: 48:50

Next up, we have the world-renowned expert on suicide prevention, who also received the Service to Humanity Award as a Champion of Change by President Barack Obama. Our expert today is Dr. Dan Ridenberg. Dr. Dan also heads up the nonprofit Save.org, which stands for Suicide Awareness, Voices of Education. Dr. Dan will share with us the key warning signs and behaviors of someone who may be at risk for suicide, and also what we can do and say to someone at risk that can possibly save a life. You know, Jesse Leach talked about the importance of listening to others, especially when they're going through a tough time. But it's also really important to know what to look for if somebody is hurting and also how to respond to that person. So first of all, what are some of the warning signs of someone who may be at risk for suicide?

SPEAKER_01: 49:44

Some of those risk factors might be family history of mental health issues, family history of chemical health issues, family history of suicide. We have warning signs. These are the things that we know that people have done in the past prior to their suicide. The ones that are most important are, number one, anybody communicating their intent to die. Now, most people don't just come out and say, I'm going to go kill myself tomorrow at this time, at this place, and this is how I'm going to do it. It's often far more disguised than that. It's far more indirect. It might be a statement like, my family would be better off without me, or my team would be better off without me, or I'm just a burden on everybody's plate. Those are suicidal kinds of communications, and we need to pay attention to those just as much as we do Those direct statements that do happen, just not as frequently. So anybody communicating their intent is a number one warning sign. Now the second and equally important warning sign has to do with looking for a way to die. We know that those people who died by suicide looked for a way to die they might have searched online for methods on how to take their life they might have gone around their house and looked for whether it was a weapon or with something sharp or a rope or a place where they could do this they might have looked for medicines that they could take all different kinds of ways to die by suicide of course but they somehow searched out and looked for a way to die so if we have any idea any inclination any observation of somebody communicating their intent and looking for a way to die. Those are the two primary warning signs. The next set of warning signs that we really want people to pay attention to are statements that somebody might make such as, I feel like I'm just a burden. There's no hope for me anymore. I don't really have a future in front of me. There's no purpose for me to be around any longer. I feel really trapped by everything and there's no way out. These kinds of statements, combined with some of those risk factors, not having enough protective factors, maybe a mental health issue, maybe some other problems in their life, that's when we know that these warning signs really set off a triggering set of events. Those are the kinds of things we really want people to pay attention to when it comes to warning signs.

SPEAKER_00: 51:58

So once we start to hear warning signs and behaviors of somebody that we feel is a suicide risk, what are some of the things that we can do to help those people or to guide them in the right direction? So

SPEAKER_01: 52:13

there are some simple things that everybody can do because we know that for about half of the people that make a final decision that they want to die by suicide and they carry it out or attempt at suicide, it's less than 10 minutes. not enough time to get to a doctor, not enough time to get to a hospital. What that means is that everybody has to know some of these warning signs. Everybody's got to be able to do a few things. First thing is we need to know that it's okay to ask about suicide. Most people still are very afraid to ask about suicide. They think that if they ask about it, it's going to lead somebody down that path, or it's going to make them want to do it more, or it's going to put an idea in their head that wasn't there before. We have a wealth of data that tells us that isn't true. And in fact, The opposite can be true. If you ask somebody who might be thinking about suicide, you can actually reduce their level of distress. You can reduce their level of anxiety. So we need to know that it is okay to ask and we need to know how to ask the question. So that's the second thing. If you're worried about somebody, If you have a gut feeling that something isn't right, there's been a change in behavior, there's been a change in things that they're saying, and you're worried about it, and you decide you're going to ask about it, that's a good thing. You must ask the question with a fatality component to it. That's really important, but I've got to back up one second here. If you're just not sure what's going on, if you just think something might be going on, but you're not sure exactly what it is, start a conversation with somebody. How are you doing? It doesn't seem like you've been yourself lately. Are there things going on that are really troubling you? Are you really struggling through? You can ask these more broad questions just to see where their thinking is at, their emotions. That's okay. If you are concerned that somebody really might be at risk of suicide, have those risk factors. They have warning signs. We've got to ask the question. It's got to be very direct. We've got to make sure that we say something about death or dying. And the reason for that is if somebody is actually thinking about death or dying by their own hand, we don't ask about that. We're going to miss where their brain is at. We've got to be really clear with them. Is this what you're thinking? Would you just rather be dead? Do you don't want to live any longer? You just don't like life anymore? That's okay. So now that you've asked, the next thing is to listen. And we need to make sure that when we're listening to people, we spend more time listening than we do talking. We need to listen more. We need to listen for things like, Do they think about the future? Do they have any hope for the future or hope for getting better? Have they ever been in treatment before? Has it ever worked for them? Were they compliant with treatment, taking their meds or seeing their doctors? We need to listen for, do they have specific reasons to live? I want to get to this graduation or I want to see my kids have children or I want to get to my wedding date or my retirement, whatever it is, because those reasons to live are the kinds of things that we can actually use to have a conversation with them. And that can deescalate people very quickly. We want to make sure that we're listening non-judgmentally. We don't want to judge somebody who's thinking about suicide or struggling with mental health issues. Whatever their thoughts are, whatever their feelings are, they're theirs and we need to acknowledge them and recognize them and say, look, I may not understand what you're going through. I may not be able to feel what you're feeling right now, but that doesn't mean I don't care. And it doesn't mean I can't support you. And it doesn't mean I don't want to be here for you because I do. So we want to listen. We want to make sure that we reflect that back to them. And then we want to respond to them. We want to make sure that they know that we're going to be there to support them. We want to make sure that they know that there's resources out there. The ones that you mentioned, the ones that are on your website. Those are the kinds of things we want to give them. to somebody who has that tunnel vision that doesn't know that there are alternatives and options. The more we can give that to someone who's struggling, the more they're going to believe in us and the more that they're going to want to have a conversation with us. Now, one more thing that's really important here. If you're having a conversation with someone and they're really struggling and they may say, you know, I've thought about it. I wouldn't ever do it. But I've thought about it. And they're talking about suicide. Make sure you don't leave them alone. We know that if you leave somebody alone that just discloses this and you say, okay, this is really important. You and I need to talk about this. Let's meet an hour. Let's meet in two hours. Tragically, sometimes that two hours is too late. And it increases their shame. around this when you put that off. If somebody's talking to you about a life or death thing, it's no different than if they're having a heart attack. You don't say, I'm going to get back to you and perform CPR in a couple hours, or I'm going to get you to a doctor in a couple hours. We shouldn't do that here either. We need to be ready to say, look, if that's what you're thinking about, we need to talk to somebody else right now. Let's get you to a professional. Let's get you connected to somebody. I'm not going to leave you alone until we know that everything's going to be safe. Those are really important things to do if somebody's at risk of suicide.

SPEAKER_00: 57:27

Yeah, I want people to know too that it may not even be a loved one that has care and compassion for you. It could be somebody in a support group. Because there are people out there that feel like they don't have anyone that they can depend on. But people do care out there. And I do think that those questions show care and compassion. Oftentimes, just that feeling can help somebody really rethink ending their life. The other thing is depression, as an example, other mood disorders as well. One of the symptoms, it can be fixating on suicide as part of the disorder. So... If somebody is going through that and scared that they're thinking this way, it's part of the disorder. Once you're back into balance, you may not have those thoughts anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 58:13

That's exactly right. There are a number of symptoms of these various illnesses. Obviously, most people think about depression and depression obviously has a depressed mood where you're unhappy and you're very sad. You might be very tearful. You might have physical symptoms such as you don't want to eat or you eat too much or your sleep is off. Either you sleep too much or too little or it's very distressed kind of sleep. You might have no energy. You might have no drive, no interest in anything any longer. But you're exactly right. Some people that live with depression do think about suicide. It is one of the symptoms of it. Not everybody does, but some people do. So we need to make sure that When we're talking to somebody who is in any way struggling with a mental health issue, we want to check things out. We want to make sure we're asking the right questions and keeping people safe and getting them through the crisis. And most of the time, it is true that anybody can be a support system.

SPEAKER_00: 59:11

So, Dr. Dan, is there anything else that you would like to say about Save.org or about suicide prevention?

SPEAKER_01: 59:20

We know that suicide is a preventable death. And if we can all be involved in this, if we can all get over that shame and those negative words that are attributed to mental health issues, and we can be honest and compassionate with those that are struggling, they're going to open up to us. And if they open up to us, it's an opportunity to save a life. Anytime we can do that, make that connection and save somebody's life, we know it has ripple effects, not just for that person and their family and their work or their school, their friends, their community, the world. It changes the world when somebody stays alive. And that all just takes a little bit of time and a little bit of compassion and a little bit of willingness to stand up and say, I'm going to be there for you. And the more people that we can come on board with that, the more lives we're going to save. So we all have a part in this and we all have an opportunity to save lives. And you're doing this and bringing this to light really does make a difference. And so I'm grateful for you and your words and the Check Your Head podcast. And I hope everybody that's out there hears this says, if I can do one thing and save somebody's life today, I'm going to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:28

A big thank you to our musical guest, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For more information, visit killswitchengage.com. For more information on Times of Grace and to purchase their new album, Songs of Loss and Separation, visit timesofgraceband.com. We'll also be playing a clip of Times of Grace's single, The Burden of Belief, soon, so stay tuned for that. For more information on Dr. Dan Reidenberg and his nonprofit, Suicide Awareness Voices of Education, visit save.org. So until next time, be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental health that you need.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:37

This journey has brought me to my I

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:10

still believe I cannot let go Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.