Hello and welcome to episode 144 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. This week we're talking about diversity and inclusion, so stay tuned for Five Leaders talking about that very topic. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast today, Stacy Justino. Stacey, lovely to have you back after quite a long break. Um I just feel like I'm saying this so much this week to everyone, guests and all, but just 2020 has been quite a ride, and it feels like such a long time since we spoke. But thank you for joining me to talk about what I am finding is a slightly uncomfortable week, but that I a week that I'm getting increasingly comfortable with. Thank you for joining me again. Happy to be here. We had we had a little chat before I hit record. Um, and I know that you have a couple of key points that you want to talk about when it comes to diversity and equity and inclusion. Um and uh I think one theme that has come up in so many discussions, both on the podcast and uh and elsewhere recently, is how we hire um in a manner to support the kind of workforce, the kind of skills, the kind of uh values that we we hope our organizations will benefit from. Um and and I know that you have uh a couple of things that you'd like to talk about, particularly in in that realm, right?
Stacy JustinoYeah, um, this is an area where I think that um companies are doing better about this, but I think a lot of job descriptions and job postings are written in a way that have people have been doing forever and not really considering what is the point of your job description. It's to attract um in, you know, I think these days a diverse um candidate base, and it shouldn't exclude people who would be great candidates for your job. So for example, for a long time, even in entry-level support roles, a lot of them would say bachelor's degree required or associate's degree required. And I remember working with some great uh recruiters at my last company to actually question is that really a requirement to do the job? And I thought to myself, well, yeah, people have that's where they learn how to write papers, and that's where they learn um how to like manage their time because they don't have their mom or dad telling them to go to school on time. You have to make the choice whether you're gonna go to class or not. They don't make you. Um, and so that made me really think, what is that a proxy for? Why do we put that on there? And should we we should really be able to articulate what those things are? You know, somebody who's a curious learner, right? That's something that you can explore and um grow deeper into as a college student. Um, writing skills, critical thinking skills, but college is not the only way somebody can get those skills. And putting that on there, um, even though you might not, you know, always say, well, we we'll look at people who maybe don't have that, you are definitely uh deterring a lot of people and in a lot of cases, minorities and women who, as we know, if they don't meet most of the requirements, won't apply for a job. Um, so to me, it's super critical to look at your job description and make sure that you're only including the things that are truly required to succeed in the role. Um, and so for example, at Wistia, we had had that technical support, SaaS support experience was preferred. And well, that's going to deter some people who are probably going to be great candidates. And if we looked at the people we hired, we didn't generally go with people who necessarily had SaaS experience. Um, so we took that out. Um, and we tried to take out the things that were um not really true about what we needed in that role and look back at who were the successful candidates. And um, I think that was really helpful for us to write a job description that um was not going to exclude folks because that's one way to limit your pool and the diversity in your pool. And if you can prevent that, it's as easy as making sure your job description is written in a way that is not exclusionary. Um and then you could run it through something like Textio, which is you know software you can use to look for those biases.
Charlotte WardYeah, I really like that actually. That's such a simple thing, is looking at the most successful people on your team and where they began. I I I think particularly if you're looking for candidates that will will grow with you, that's such a powerful thing to do. Um I've I've done a little of this in my in my current role when I'm hiring. I I very carefully describe uh I very carefully crafted a job description, which granted now we're talking, maybe does contain some of those shorthands for those proxies for other skills I was looking for. Nonetheless, I I was very, very careful because I'm super aware of that uh that limitation that quite often women place on themselves as applicants by not uh applying for something that they're 110% qualified for. Um and I felt the very, very, very small thing I could do was say something to the effect of you may not have all these skills, but if you if you match, you know, uh like half of them, we'd love to talk to you about the rest, you know. And and I think that that's kind of like even just that sentence I would be somewhat comforted by, at least I like to think so because I wrote it mostly, but if I want to.
Stacy JustinoI think so. I think so. When I see that on a job posting, I'm like, yes, yes, because people need to read that. Um and so yeah, I think that's really um a good trend that I hope continues as well.
Charlotte WardYeah, yeah. I think I think the um the other thing that you mentioned is is really interesting, though, you know, removing those requirements that are often a shorthand for other skills that we really do want and we really are interested in. I wonder how far we can take this because um we've seen a lot of big companies have been very vocal on um places like LinkedIn about the fact they're removing degrees as a requirement from their from their job postings. And yet on the other hand, they are such an easy shorthand for the kind of skills we might be looking for. And and I think the same is true probably as somebody who is going into college now or is just coming out of college now and feeling, you know what, I went and got that degree just so that I didn't have to demonstrate all these other skills. What are you what are your thoughts there for for kind of college students right now thinking about all of those all of those roles that suddenly didn't no longer require a degree?
Stacy JustinoUm, I think that it goes back to this idea that like that college prepared people for the real world. There's a lot of parts that don't. So I think it's like this bigger, like it that's like a symptom of like a bigger problem, right? Um, and when a lot of people when they start college, they don't know what they want to do. And so um, you know, we've kind of set up a situation that makes it, you know, you spend one or two years trying to figure it out, and then you have two years left to really dive deep into something, and then you're supposed to be ready for an adult job. Um, I think trying to figure out like how you can influence the either the people you know and like as a hiring manager, I know what skills that I'm looking for. And so I try to share that with the people I know, whether it's a younger sibling or my little cousins, because um I'm I'm always here to look over their resume and cover letter and help them with interview questions. Um, because I think that's the real part that they're missing, is like they need to be able to connect the dots. They probably did uh do all that stuff in college and shouldn't feel bad that um other folks who don't have a degree don't have that opportunity. I think that's that goes back to the problem of privilege, right? Um but we built this whole society around, oh, a college degree is necessary to make uh multiply your like earning capability and um the world is changing, right? A lot of people are going to boot camps to learn how to be software engineers instead of going to four-year university to get a degree in computer science. So I think it's just changing. And we need to help, you know, the younger folks who are going into the workforce to you know come along, right? Because I think that is where it's going.
Charlotte WardYeah, yeah. It's about uh actually being prepared to diversify your own skills and and the way you acquire skills and and it becoming a more of a lifelong journey, right, rather than just that four-year degree, which I I feel somewhat ashamed to say now is what I did back in the 90s. I just followed that straight through school to university, four-year degree, straight into a tech job. Um, and uh and the world is changing, you know. And I I having been through that process myself, and now as a mother, I never, ever, ever thought that I would say to my children, a degree might not be that important. It feels very, very alien. I I can't believe those words come out of my mouth to my children, you know, it's a very, very strange thing for me to say and and accept. And yet I have accepted it because that's what I tell them.
Stacy JustinoI agree. Like as a mom, even though I have a young child, that seemed like in my head, I was like, yeah, just like me, and just like my dad before me, um, they're gonna go to college and then they're gonna get a job. And well, that might not be the best track for them. And I'm okay with that too.
Charlotte WardYeah, yeah. Thinking about how those kids grow up then and and the the world into which they are moving, my my eldest isn't so very far off, you know, uh scarily. Um, but thinking about the kind of organizations that you might go into, whether they be tech organizations or whatever, whatever path he chooses to take, uh, I think the conversation is the same. What's the sort of environment that you think um of your child potentially going into? What sort of organizations do you think would be the sort of organizations you would like to see your child work in and grow in and succeed in?
Stacy JustinoUh that's a great question. Um, I think what I tried to do, and I think um I would hope for my kids or anybody going into the workforce is an inclusive environment. So, you know, I was talking about making sure you're not cutting people off from applying, but once you get those people in the door, um we don't want to just listen to the loudest voice in the room. So um some people aren't good about speaking up, but it doesn't mean they don't have good ideas, and it doesn't mean that you shouldn't give them space or opportunity to do that. So, like at Wistia, we've been working to make sure our meetings are more inclusive. And when we were coming up with that task force, um they wanted someone from the customer happiness team. And I said, hey, I want to actually suggest someone who's a little quieter, but is really bright, has good ideas, but doesn't speak up as much as I would, you know, hope they would, because when they do say something, it's a good, um, solid idea. And so um building your meeting so that introverts have a space to speak. So having an agenda that everybody can add to beforehand. Um, if you look, I like to see like if somebody looks like they want to say something, uh, making sure that I say, Hey, Joe, it looks like you were gonna say something and give them that space. Um, especially with Zoom, it's really hard to sort of you keep everybody else can't see everybody. And as a person, sort of as the manager or watching the meeting, I'm always kind of keeping an eye on people's uh, you know, facial expressions or uh motions to make sure that I am keeping an eye on people who are just about to speak when somebody else started to speak up.
Charlotte WardI actually think um that maybe operating remotely gives us some advantages in this respect. I I think I think it's a very equalizing, I won't say it levels the playing field entirely, but I think speaking as an introvert, which people don't believe, but but I am honestly an introvert with a podcast. Um but but I think speaking as someone whose natural place is that, um I find it much easier to operate in a remote environment, even if I'm in a meeting with 20 other people, than I would in a meeting room with 20 other people in. I think I think it has some equalizing effect, which I think is interesting.
Stacy JustinoI think one other way it has an equalizing effect, and I think it's made people think more critically about when something could be like an email or like a shared doc that people can edit and ask questions on. Um and I try to like make sure we have a balance of those things and making sure you ask yourself, well, what is the right medium to have this conversation? Can it be async? Um, because sometimes people are a lot better about having some time to sit with their thoughts after they read something, give their feedback, um, rather than just having people do it on the fly in a meeting.
Charlotte WardYeah, that totally makes sense. That totally makes sense. I I love uh I just the thing that I'm really driving for is to gather more around artifacts and documentation than than get on a meeting all the time. The meetings should be the things that that develop those social connections rather than necessarily and have quick discussions rather than necessarily require you all to bring a fully formed vocal opinion to. Um so I mean that sounds like a great environment for you for uh a child to and a great world for a child to grow up into and be be encouraged in uh to to form as well as as well as join. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash one four four for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.