296: Flipping Away From Leadership; with Jenny Dempsey

Getting laid off can scramble more than your finances. It can shake your identity, your confidence, and the story you’ve been told about what “success” in customer support leadership is supposed to look like. That’s why this conversation with Jenny Dempsey hit so hard: she went from a clear leadership path in customer experience to two years of uncertainty, experimenting with consulting, and rebuilding from a place that felt anything but predictable.

We talk about the moment she realized a leadership title no longer matched her values. Jenny shares what it was like to apply for individual contributor roles with 20 years of experience, get judged as “overqualified,” and wrestle with the temptation to downplay her background just to get hired. We also unpack a healthier approach: owning the choice, leading without the org-chart label, and focusing on skills that actually create impact like clear communication, customer empathy, and making work easier for the team.

Then we zoom out to the unexpected parallel that ties it all together: her furniture flipping business. The product is different, but the customer journey is the same. Setting expectations, choosing the right channel, giving progress updates, and protecting trust when timelines are long. Charlotte puts it simply: silence kills trust. If you’re navigating layoffs, a career pivot, burnout, or a non-linear support career path, you’ll leave with practical mindset shifts and a better way to tell your story.

Subscribe for more real conversations about customer support careers, share this with a friend who’s rethinking their next move, and leave a review with the title you’re ready to stop chasing.

Transcript

Welcome Back And What Changed

Charlotte Ward 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode 296 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Jenny Dempsey talking about flipping away from a leadership career. I'd like to welcome back today. Jenny Dempsey, Jenny, it is so lovely to have you back. It's been such a long time since we spoke on the podcast, and I have seen you in person since then, which maybe we'll touch on because we've had a couple of exciting adventures together. But we're in for another exciting adventure. But first, would you mind reintroducing yourself?

Jenny Dempsey 0:54

Oh, thank you, Charlotte. It is so awesome to be back here. I mean, considering that the last episode that I did with you was in what, January 2020. So so much has happened in the world, in our lives since then. And so to be back and really uh talk about everything is super cool. But yeah, for everyone who doesn't know me, I'm Jenny Dempsey. I'm here in San Diego, California. And my current title, and I say title in air quotes, because we'll get into what that actually means. Um, I'm a brand reputation specialist for a multifamily company. And um basically I also have a furniture business, furniture flipping business on the side. And so I'm kind of across the board now. Didn't see any of this happening in 2020. If someone would have told me that would be my intro in 2026, I would have probably laughed at them, but here we are.

Charlotte Ward 1:49

Indeed, here we are. Um, and I've watched your progress, and I know we've been in touch uh in other forums, other channels, other walks of life in the intervening six years. But um, I just recall you having like such a like a really great and personal approach to our discussions. We had a few early in 2020, I think, and you were my very, very, very first guest on the podcast. So um, and I know you came back for a couple of episodes in quick succession, but it's so lovely to see you back, uh, particularly following a personal adventure last year where we finally got to meet up in person in San Diego. That was that was great fun, and I know you were super helpful um on that. It's the leg of my journey with my child at that point. We had such a fun day with you in San Diego. It was so lovely to see you on Home Turf. So um, here we are on my home turf, if you will, or back on the podcast. So lovely to have you back. Um, and you have been uh to your point, you have been on quite a wild ride, quite an adventure over the last five five to six years, right? It's been transformative, I suppose, would be one word. I I think sort of uh would experimental to some degree be a fair word to put on the last six years. Absolutely, both of those would be in surprising is probably another surprising, all good adjectives, yeah. Um, and and what I really love about watching how you've uh developed both both personally and professionally over the last six years is in some ways you that experimental word uh I think has been very evident in some of the things you've talked about on LinkedIn in particular, and certainly when you and I have talked over the last few years uh off any kind of recorded or social platform, you know, when we've kept in touch. Um, so experimental has led you down a few paths, but also intentional as well, right? Like intentional making decisions that suited you where you were in the moment you were in, um, and having particularly, and I know this is what we're here to talk about today, particularly like making the decision to step out of a leadership role and seek it seek a new role that was doing something a little bit adjacent, a little bit different. Um

Leadership Track In 2020

Charlotte Ward 4:05

I would love to dig into that more with you. I mean, maybe first a good place to start is to give us a refresh of where you were in 2020, what you were doing in that leadership role when we first talked.

Jenny Dempsey 4:18

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've worked in the customer service, customer experience space for over, well, at this point, about 20 years, which sounds wild. Um, I was in a management role uh in 2020. I was doing some consulting on the side, as well as speaking about customer service, customer experience, writing on a blog. Like there were, there was a whole list of things that was going on in 2020. And I saw my career path really propelling into more higher leadership roles. I was definitely, you know, looking for the title. I was really leaning into that, but also leaning into what I liked about customer service and experience was just people helping people and finding more ways to do better work to do that. And so flash forward to 2022. Um, you know, COVID is kind of in this place where we're back out in the world a little bit. Um, and I got laid off and um it was very shocking. I didn't expect it a couple of weeks before the layoff, I got a raise. Like, I mean, it was it was unexpected. Um and they laid off 70% of the company at that time. So it wasn't just me. There were a lot of other people really struggling. And for anyone listening who has also been in a layoff situation, it's very hard to find a new role. So I was really kind of grasping at straws at this point to figure out what to do. And so I had to get creative. And the experimental part kind of kicked in here where I was like, well, I have this knowledge and experience. Maybe I could do some consulting, or maybe I could do this, maybe I could do this. So it's kind of trying different things, landing in a few different roles here and there. But, you know, in consulting, sometimes that they end like there's not this, you're not there. You're paying your own benefits. Like there are things that are coming up that you're responsible for in a way when you don't have an employer. So that was a really interesting time, but it opened up my mind to, okay, well, what is it that I really want to do here? And I learned through these consulting projects that being so far removed from the customer was maybe not the best for me. Maybe I was really leaning into roles where I wanted to do more working with the people. And I've had leadership experience, I've been director level, like done all this and that. And that's wonderful. But I knew that when I went back into the workforce that I needed to do something more aligned. And I think after getting laid off and really struggling in that time, I had lost my dad during that time and then also, you know, just felt really low mood-wise and then was picking up furniture from the side of the road and starting to work with my hands and learn that, um, which I could talk about more, but I'll kind of leave it at that for now because otherwise I will go up on a tangent and talk about furniture and this. But essentially, when it did come time to find a new role, I was really applying for more independent contributor roles or, you know, more not necessarily frontline, but roles that supported the company in a way that was more customer or team focused as opposed to being in a leadership role. And I got laughed at in interviews. Um, there were times where I'd be on the Zoom call and they're like, and this literally, literally happened during a call. They looked at me and they're like, we just wanted to be on this interview to see who you were and why you would apply with 20 years experience for a customer service agent role. And I was like, Well, I really like helping people and I'm really good at it, and I have a lot of experience. Like, and they're laughing at me. So I started to manipulate my resume. I'm not putting dates on there, I'm changing things, I'm dumbing things down in a way. But then I realized that that is doing me a disservice because I do have a lot of great experience, and it's okay to call that out. And it's also okay to own that a leadership role doesn't align with my values anymore. It's not that I can't do it, it's that I didn't want to. I wanted to be in a role where I was able to focus on certain things. And when I found that role and, you know, two years later was able to start that job, it kind of became evident that this is a good fit for me. I can do great work here and make an impact in a way that makes sense for me without having to worry about marking someone's time off or without having to worry about these things that kind of take away from the values. And so maybe that makes me sound a little like selfish and bougie, but I just really like working with the people and being able to see how things that maybe I can create make their lives a little bit easier, that their jobs are a little bit easier. And being able to do that is what I feel more most aligned in. But I definitely get comments from people of like, oh, but you have so much experience. Shouldn't you be like a VP now? I'm like, that is not on I I don't care. Like I have zero interest. What is a title, anyways, when a company can just lay you off at the end of the day. What matters most are the skills that I bring to the table, the work that I do, and how I show up with my team and support. And so when I kind of peeled back those layers, I was like, I could be any title. It doesn't matter. I could be a leader in a role that is not necessarily a leadership role. And that's just what works for me.

Charlotte Ward 9:40

Wow, yeah, yeah, wow. Um, there's such a lot to dive into there, but um, you know, I th I think thinking about the early part of your story in particular, um when we're talking like 2022,

Layoff Shock And Experimenting To Survive

Charlotte Ward 9:55

2023, actually it almost feels like I mean, in terms of the like the employment landscape, particularly as it looks now from 2026, it feels almost like dinosaur times, right? Not much had changed in terms of the the structure of organizations, the way organizations were delivering support. Okay, AI existed, you know, but but it it was sort of it was chatbots, it was, you know, fairly yeah, like management structures were still fairly old school, all of those things, you know, the hierarchy was what it had been for 20 years before that, right? And so I think that the the landscape of looking for a role back then while tough was at least somewhat predictable. Um, in terms of to your point, what people what hiring managers or hiring execs at least would have been expecting to walk through the door. Um, but also in terms of like the the difficulties in the landscape were also fairly predictable, right? There there's a lot of experienced people, particularly at that time, a lot of people being let go, um, with very few roles available to them. Um the thing that strikes me now thinking about the landscape is that there are even fewer leadership roles. Um, organizations are getting flatter, they are looking for a different profile of individual contributor, which listening to you talk actually actually makes me think that maybe there is maybe this makes more sense in 2026 than it even did. Not that it was nonsensical two to three years ago, but it was more unusual. And I think we'll see more of this in the coming few years, right? We'll see more of people choosing roles that align with their values, that aren't necessarily leadership by title, that aren't people leadership roles, because because those those roles are going to become fewer on the ground anyway in the current landscape, with the changing shape of organizations and hierarchies and flatter orgs. And so being more creative, being less title focused has to be the way forward, I would think.

Jenny Dempsey 12:13

Yeah, I mean, that is such a great point right there. It is definitely changing. You can feel it in an organization, you can see it even on LinkedIn, people's posts, like it's it's evolving. And I think a lot of people, you know, might be like, oh, I got laid off, I can't find a job, I need to take the first available one. And I get it, like not having the income, you feel that need. And throughout the time, like I would, you know, the it might happen. And I think that some of those people may not want to take that entry level or lower role simply because, like, well, I have this amount of experience, I should be doing this. But if you really take that step back of, well, what is it that you really want to do? Can you go into this, you know, maybe lower role and it's a stepping stone? Can you go into that? Like, I think there's just different ways to think about it without it. I don't know, determining your self-worth anymore. You can choose to have, even with limited things. And I say choose lightly because I get it, there's not a lot of things available. And I went for two years without that. So choosing makes me sound like I should just pick whatever, you know. Um, I didn't even get the jobs at the coffee shop that I was applying to. Like, I mean, so I was, I felt like my choices were very limited. And so, but still having that, you know, intentional decision-making process behind I can take this role that might be a lower role and still show up with the leadership skills that I have built over X amount of years. And, you know, who knows what growth could come out of that down the road. But really stepping into it without that, maybe a little less ego, or maybe it's a little just mindset shift. I had to essentially detach the identity of work from myself in order to be able to do that. And that was a crazy process. But uh, I mean, it's hard. I thought work was all I was good at. I thought that's it, that was it. But when I kind of detached, I was like, I can be good at these things without having to make it my life. It can be a part of it, and I can do really well at it.

Charlotte Ward 14:23

And to your point earlier, like you can you can deliver and do good at the things that you care about, and you can let go the things that you care less about. Um I I have yet to meet any leader at any level who loves managing PTO, you know? Like that's not the people who are in leadership roles don't say, Man, I want to make VP so I can manage more of PTO.

Choosing Non-Leadership Roles On Purpose

Charlotte Ward 14:56

Like, and and and so like I think this notion of like even higher and lower and uh you know more tenured being being a natural like fit for having more direct reports, like and all of those things are just notions that we have to let go of. And and doing the things that we enjoy, so long as we can achieve a sustainable income for our needs and a sustainable, you know, lifestyle for our desires, which is different things for different people. Some people, like me, love work and hate sleep, other people are are the flip of that, right? Um, and I get that.

Jenny Dempsey 15:34

I'm in bed by 8 30 every night. Sorry, that's late.

Charlotte Ward 15:38

I'm just getting warmed up. Um and so I think like I I think that the idea that climbing the ladder is a measure of success is something that we have been, particularly of a certain generation, uh uh, and I know I'm probably a generation beyond you, Jenny, but like that that like we're socially conditioned to titles, we're socially conditioned to income, we're socially conditioned, particularly as women in the workforce, to ch achieve and overachieve and strive and strive harder. Um, and uh we let go of so many things that could otherwise make us happy or happier and um more fulfilled, you know. Um, and they aren't all managing PTOs, prize, prize.

Jenny Dempsey 16:30

Right, right. And I think that's a good point, Charlotte, because there's always even in work that we enjoy, there's always things that we don't want to do. Like there's that quote, whatever, if you if you love what you do, you never work a day. I personally hate that quote because I feel like it is so untrue. I believe that if you love what you do, there's still gonna be things that you don't want to do. I love my furniture work, I love you know that. But there are pieces of it that are very frustrating and complicated and tedious that I'm like, oh, if I could outsource this part, I would. And so it's just like the I'm gonna guess.

Charlotte Ward 17:03

I'm gonna guess tax and invoicing.

Jenny Dempsey 17:06

Yes. Oh, it's so gross. But also, um, if someone wants to help me, like saw, saws really intimidate me, they're a little scary. So I'm like, if I can have someone help me or this, yeah, taxes and saws, like right there.

Charlotte Ward 17:20

Okay. Okay.

Jenny Dempsey 17:23

I feel like there that's something to remember, but it's the way that I've kind of reframed it is like in any of these roles, there's gonna be those things. What are the things that you are willing to to deal with? Like, what are the things like there I don't want to deal with P, I really don't want to deal with PTO, but I am okay if I gotta figure out the taxes because I'm running a business of my own um that you know saves furniture from the landfill. So I feel like there's this toss-up and this kind of reframing that you have to do, or um, you know, it's it's kind of a work in in progress, but I I think that there's always gonna be something like that. And remembering that when you step into the role that you enjoy what 95% of it, but there's that 5% that will keep you having night.

Charlotte Ward 18:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I yeah, I think the same is true of any any part of life, right? The nothing you you get not, yeah. There's no such thing as a free lunch and and all of those other kind of associated proverbs and uh idioms and everything. Like, yeah, I mean ultimately, ultimately, uh um there's so many ways I could take this. I'm gonna shut up about it. But but ultimately, like the you're absolutely right. Like, I think even the people who love leadership hate managing PTO, there are legitimately people who love, you know, I mean, maybe love is a strong word, but but who enjoy growing people, but there's a flip side to growing people, which is performance management. Like, everything has a flip side, you know, and you you have to look on the positives and and out and and do do the checks and balances ultimately. Do to you know, stick everything on the scale to your point. If it's 95% or 70%, is the is the 70% or 95% enough to outweigh the things that you just have to do to be able to do the bit you enjoy. The same is true, whatever your role, whatever your title, and ultimately, if that balance doesn't add up, it's time to consider a different path, right? Um I'm super interested in your um furniture flipping. Um as a I know it's a side hustle, but it's not, it's it's become an increasingly significant part of your life, right? And um, I think the thing that I love, like when I look at

Detaching Identity From Job Titles

Charlotte Ward 19:45

um people I'm hiring, for instance, uh for my team, I try and come into interviews with a fairly open mind about their employment history. Um, and I I particularly enjoy hearing about other situations where they've dealt with customers. You know, uh everyone, I mean, the typical one that we hear in support is well, if you've worked in Starbucks or your local coffee shop or whatever, then you've dealt with customers, you're going to make a good customer service rep. But there's so many different ways to deal with customers, and I think what I sense from you is, and and in fact, I think you said it quite explicitly earlier, you love working with customers, so you've managed to craft two completely different facets of your um income-generating life, your professional career, your your uh employment, um, and and uh occupation that are ultimately doing the work but also working quite heavily with customers, I would imagine. And do you get as much joy out of working with customers on the career on the furniture flipping side as you do on your uh you know your day job, as it were, would you say?

Jenny Dempsey 20:58

That's such a great question. Yes, definitely, but they are very different. The customer journey, and there's different pipelines for those customers who either are finding drunk furniture on the road or they have a piece in their garage. It's just collecting dust, or you know, and sometimes having to craft a way to tell them no, like I can't take in all these pieces. I am only doing this about 10 hours a week on a Sunday, you know. So I I really have limited availability and my client pipeline is very backed up. I'm backed up till July right now with client projects, which is amazing. But having to craft ways to share your limitations has been something that has been the biggest learning because in working in the tech startup space, you want to say, Oh, I'll check with the boss, I'll check with, you know, so and so, I'll get engineering to work on that, I'll get that bug fixed. Here it is just me where I'm like, oh, I have to say no because I can't take that in right now. My client pipeline is this, or you know, my turnaround time for projects is six to eight weeks just because it's uh limited availability. And so Having to learn to craft your limitations to customers and in a way that makes them still feel valued and heard and respected has been one of the biggest learnings. But I feel like all of these things that I learned up to this point in my career, whether it was on the front lines in my early days or in leadership roles, has helped me create an experience for my customers. Like when I give them a piece of furniture, when they pick it up, there is a little gift bag that has, you know, maybe a paint little bit in there. So they if they need touch-ups and a towel and a card and I do checkups and, you know, there, there's just lots of things that can be curated. But I never really saw that part coming. And it to get very creative with that has been fun. But there are different ways to see it more instantaneous with the day job, like being able to say, Oh, I'll get so and so on this, or I'll be able to do this right now. Let me fix this for you in, you know, a few minutes is so satisfying. And knowing that that supported someone and made their day, as opposed to, oh, I'll get back to you in six to eight weeks. But in the meantime, I'm texting them pictures of progress and it's you know messy, and I'm sharing on Instagram and they're sharing and it's just it's very different. But at the end of the day, it is people helping people. I say that all the time. It's just to dial it all back, that's what it means to me. And that's what keeps me kind of moving forward, knowing that there's a way to help, whether it takes several weeks in my garage or you know, it's just 24 hours in my uh day job.

Charlotte Ward 23:34

I mean, it's highly communicative, right? In in both scenarios, and uh which means it has to be people focused and you have to be energized by people and those kind of interactions. Do you know what um just occurred to me as you were talking about like the updates you were giving your uh your furniture flipper customers, particularly and how like the parallels between that and your day job? Um a phrase I've started using recently uh in my day job, particularly is silence uh kills trust. Oh yeah, and so you know, being communicative, whether we're talking about updates on that, you know, that sideboard that you're innovating for somebody, um, or on a support ticket, silence kills trust. Like people, customers want to know progress. And I think you've just summed it up perfectly. Like you've got two completely different situations, two completely different customers, two completely different products and services. But it does, doesn't it? Silence kills trust, and those updates are so important.

Jenny Dempsey 24:41

Oh, absolutely, especially when that sideboard that they're bringing to you belong to their late grandma who passed away, and they, you know, it has so much

Furniture Flipping As Customer Work

Jenny Dempsey 24:50

meaning. I think that's also the big thing, is it it's so charged, right? These pieces of furniture are parts of their their homes, their lives. And so people get really connected to that. And if you just drop the ball and you don't don't message them, you know, and especially the other thing, messaging on the channel that they reached out to. You know, if they text, I'm gonna text. If they're gonna Instagram DM, I'll Instagram DM. Like keeping it kind of consistent if they email, email. And so being very clear, but also having in mind of not overwhelming them um with too much. Like I'm very much, I'm gonna how I talk to my customers is how I'm talking to you. Like I'm very more authentic and less scripted. And so I'm sending pictures, I'm sending updates. I'm also, you know, checking in and then asking how their lives are going with their days or that they have something in mind, or, you know, there's there's a conversation happening. And that's kind of how I've always been when I've worked in support. And I feel like with uh, you know, AI is so great, but I feel like there's still that human element that people really want to see. And with the furniture, it's very much a visual hands-on like experience for them to see something transform, going back to what we were talking about. I mean, the whole transformation of something like that, it's incredibly meaningful. And so to be able to be part of that experience and and communicate it without that, because they trusted you to bring that to them, and I take that very, very uh important. I mean, that's it's a big responsibility.

Charlotte Ward 26:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, so Jenny, going back to uh 2022 Jenny, 2023 journey, um tough times, right? And and like I completely empathize um because I went through a similar experience in 2015 to 2018, 2019. Like I had uh a four-year period where I was employed fully for just over a year. Um, I went through two incredibly difficult layoffs, um, very similar to yours. And you know, like searching and searching for that leadership role, going through the consulting, going through like, you know, being creative about what else I could do in the meantime was a significant part of that time away from the day job. Um so I went through a similar kind of year and a half period in that time twice. So I I completely empathize with where you where you were. Um, I know I I kind of and I was um I don't enjoy approving PTO, but I enjoy a lot else about leading teams, and I am one of the people that kind of sees perfor successful performance management, for instance, as something that is, you know, something I want to achieve, work, you know, accomplish, I suppose is the right term. Uh so the difficult sides of leadership sort of appeal to me, they're part and parcel of the job, you know. Uh, I feel like doing them well is worth doing. Yes. Um uh if that's uh the best lens I can put on that. I enjoy a leadership role. Um uh I guess where I'm going with this, it's like if you were to look back to that period of your life where you were evaluating what was important to you, what you really enjoyed, what you really didn't enjoy. Is there any advice you would give 2022 journey, 2023 journey in terms of changing the narrative, going into those interviews, how you would shape your resume, how you would approach the search, how you would structure your life differently now, knowing what you know now compared to how you were inventing it? And I guess uh like there are there was periods of invention during that time, right?

Jenny Dempsey 28:39

Yeah. Oh, that's a that's a big question. And I think, all right, I'm gonna share the first thing that comes to mind. And when I was searching for these jobs, I kept, I remember very vividly thinking all these things that I need to be

Silence Kills Trust And Better Updates

Jenny Dempsey 28:55

able to do and show that I did, and being very tactical and you know, whatever resume updates and stuff. But when I started to get all those rejections and ghostings, I was like, well, what is it that I need to do? And one of the things that was really helpful for me was going back and not necessarily looking at the things that I, you know, things on the resume are good, but reframing them in a way of like, what are the things that I'm most proud of doing and and why? Like, what were those projects, you know? But going back throughout my career or what were the other things of like for me, like I would go to like ICMI conferences and bring my guitar and sing. Like I'd write songs about customer service. And um, you know, I would do things like that, or I loved to write. I would write all the time on customer service stuff, or um looking at different ways that I would, you know, it and work, infuse music. Someone actually just sent me a video the other day of there was a stand-up meeting that we had in our organization. This was from like 2015, and I was singing a song instead of presenting. I wrote a song about it. And so looking back at the things that were kind of these golden threads that were always being woven through that I might not consider as skills. Um, for example, you know, in that creativity, writing, you know, translating, and in my mind, taking data and making it into a story. That's really all I was doing. Um, and using that and then putting that on the resume instead, but being very clear of like, you know, here's how I did it. Being different, it's okay. Um, putting those things out there, but really going back and seeing, well, what are the things that I did and how did I do them? But what's that golden thread woven through? And that was really helpful for me. I updated my resume. And instead of putting, you know, made X amount of this, like, of course, that's important. But there's also the important part of like, I translated, you know, this data into this story, and then I also sang about it. And the stakeholders thought it was great, and then it turned into this, and this is what happened. And like seeing the ripple effect of showing up as your true self, doing things instead of stuffing it down, um, and thinking that you have to be super pro. And I know that doesn't apply in every single industry. Um, but for me in the tech world space, it definitely made sense and it really helped me kind of become okay, a little bit more okay with these things as opposed to I don't know, trying to hide them. Um, and that's also why I talk so openly about furniture, because I'm like, it is part of who I am. It's a creative thing. There's a lot of skills that I learned from this that help me in my day job, which sounds crazy, but you know, it's it is very much something like that. I have that entrepreneurial kind of mindset, and I can use that in both worlds.

Charlotte Ward 31:42

And yeah, so hopefully that's helpful to someone, but no, but I I think it is, and I think I think that um what's what's interesting is that you know, you talked

The Golden Threads Resume Strategy

Charlotte Ward 31:55

about um showing up as your true self, like being authentic and and those kind of things. I think I I completely see what you're trying to get at and and like what you are getting at. And and what I what I take from that really is that not everyone can play guitar first of all They can do other things, yeah. Exactly, exactly that, and and that ultimately w I think particularly like I you know, I think unless you are fairly brand new to the workforce right now, um there has been a lot for decades, a lot of conditioning around separating your professional self from the rest of you, uh how you project, how you uh develop certain skills, what's appropriate, all of those things. Um they don't uh uh and like breaking down that social conditioning, breaking down some of those barriers, looking for quite intentionally to your point, looking for the golden threads, looking for the things that make you who you are, make you not only an active contributor in any space you turn up, but also an enthusiastic contributor in any space you turn up, uh, and show like your skills and your capabilities and your your you know uh individuality and your um insight are I think um I think is truly I think the unlock that you're talking about. It it's like the the willingness to say this isn't just about me, Jenny, the customer support leader, or me, Charlotte, the customer support leader. This is about everything I've done. And this is about everything I can bring, everything I've accomplished, everything that I do well, everything that I'm passionate about. And I mean, maybe looking for one role to fulfill all of those skills and desires. It might seem a little bit of a unicorn, but you but you might actually land it. Um, or or it meets a significant number of them, and the rest you can make up as you go along, which I think you've certainly achieved. Um and uh being willing to talk about everything that I would have historically called extracurricular. It's really it's really, you know, it really informs our um interviews, our resume, um, our our success, right?

Jenny Dempsey 34:51

Totally, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.

Charlotte Ward 34:56

Jenny, thank you so much for being so willing to share this experience with us. I know you've been on a real journey the last few years. It's been a joy to watch and and in some small ways to be a part of because we got to meet occasionally uh one way or another on Zoom or in person through this, um, in in different locations from from rainy UK to sunny San Diego and and other spots in between. Um, thank you so much for your generosity again, and um I look forward to another conversation, but thank you for joining me today and uh good luck with with both halves of your your professional uh uh uh uh

Thanks, Goodbye, And Where To Find Notes

Charlotte Ward 35:35

occupations going forward. Thank you so much.

Jenny Dempsey 35:38

Thank you so much, Charlotte. This was so cool to be on here. Come back to San Diego soon.

Charlotte Ward 35:43

Oh, I will, I will. I'll be bringing uh a small child again with me to uh to meet the dog and uh go to the city for sure.

Jenny Dempsey 35:51

White will be very excited about this, and so will we, so will we.

Charlotte Ward 35:55

Thank you so much, Jenny. Thank you so much.

Jenny Dempsey 35:57

Thank you, Charlotte.

Charlotte Ward 36:02

That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two nine six for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.