298: Returning to the Office; with Andrew Rios

The office can be a productivity killer or a leadership advantage, and the difference usually comes down to one thing: whether we design the day or let the day design us. I’m joined by Andrew Rios to get real about returning to the office after years of remote work, and what it takes to make that shift sustainable for customer support leaders running busy teams.

We dig into the practical mechanics that decide whether office life works: owning your calendar from day one, carrying over non negotiables like school runs and family time, and factoring in commute time so your week doesn’t silently stretch. Andrew shares how he protects evenings over the long haul even in a role where outages and service interruptions can happen, and why it can take time to build the right rules of engagement.

Then we get into the hard part: getting work done when people can see you. We talk deep work blocks, the hidden cost of context switching, and how “Do you have a minute?” can derail an entire morning. Andrew explains how he sets office norms, sometimes even stepping into a coffee shop to recreate a remote focus setup, and how he turns walk up escalations into coaching moments that build team autonomy over time.

If you’re navigating return to office, hybrid work, or simply trying to protect focus and work life balance in a contact center or support environment, this one is packed with tactics you can use immediately. Subscribe for more practical customer support leadership conversations, share this with a leader who’s struggling with office interruptions, and leave a review with your best calendar boundary.

Transcript

Welcome And The Return Question

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And then we'll get to the colour.

Charlotte Ward 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode 298 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Andrew Rios to talk about returning to the office. Today, welcome back. Coach Rios. Coach, lovely to see you again. Um, I think um last time we spoke, you mentioned that you had moved on to a new place and you you were back to the office, right? Which is what we're talking about today.

Andrew Rios 0:47

Yeah, yeah. Hey, Charlotte, thanks for having me back. I figured after a long hiatus, I'd just jump back on real quick and we can continue the talk. So thanks again. Yeah, we briefly touched on that. You know, I think two years ago, the last time we spoke before the previous episode, uh, I was a remote employee in transition as well. And then happened to land at a great opportunity local to my city. And it is an in-office role. Um, and I think after two years, I've I know I've learned a lot, um, things to share with other leaders who are who are thinking about it or who are maybe just started it and are trying to navigate it. And maybe I can uh share a little bit about my experience of navigating that.

Charlotte Ward 1:27

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? You know, I think that um when we think about going remote, for so many people that means COVID and being forced out of the office, but then kind of acclimatizing to that and getting used to that and being seduced by working from home and remote work generally. Um and and for me, um, I've been 100% remote since 2004, I think.

Andrew Rios 1:54

Oh wow, 20 years, huh? 20 years.

Charlotte Ward 1:58

22 years, 100% remote. Imagine that. Um, I can imagine nothing worse than returning to the office full-time. Um, but I but sorry, but but but I know for many people, you know, since COVID, it's been something, there's been a lure to go back to the office, both a pull from organizations, but also like it being at home doesn't suit everyone. Does it suit me, it's not for everyone, right? So I there's there's that kind of uh I guess internal struggle, like it works being remote for so many reasons, but I'd love to be back in the office for so many reasons. What's good about it is where I'm going with that long stick, that long uh uh monologue is first of all, sell it to me, Andrew. Sell it to me.

Andrew Rios 2:46

Oh, wow, sell it, sell it to you, sell it to you. So let me see. Um if you're close to the office, right, you can still be able to have some of that uh that family time. One of the things I do is I have my calendar set up to where there's certain lunch, lunch uh hours during the month that I come back and have lunch with my partner, have lunch with my kids with another on the minimum day. So that's that's one thing is you get an opportunity to kind of control um somewhat of your calendar. Somewhat of your calendar, I will say. I think the other thing is, and you mentioned this too, is um some people love being in the office, right? And even if they had the opportunity to work remote or hybrid, they are office folks. They love it. They have the energy, the camaraderie, the water cooler talks. They can operate and navigate in that kind of world. So I think connecting with folks like that is a great thing if I had to sell it to you. But I would I always say this because I want to uh write on what you opened up with because there's some truth there. I think it was about four years ago, I was lucky enough to give a talk at Elevate CX, and I was talking about what it was like to build a team fully remote from scratch. So it was in the COVID years, fully remote, new industry, build it up. And I remember starting the talk with like, yeah, and after those three and a half, four years, one of my things is I'm never gonna go back to work in the office. And here I am, two years later working in the office, right?

Charlotte Ward 4:06

Um you're all selling it to me.

Andrew Rios 4:09

And here I

Non Negotiables And Commute Reality

Andrew Rios 4:10

am letting letting you know. I think one of the things I've learned though that was really important when you decide to return back to the office, whether it's in a hybrid role or fully, or fully in the office, is really controlling that calendar from the beginning, right? The calendar is blank when you start there, but it's really not. It's blank because it's a new calendar, but you have a calendar. And there are probably some non-negotiables that you should, must carry over there that, you know, if you're a salaried employee and whatnot, you should just build in as meetings, right? And subject them as such, right? You know, I have I have my my uh 75 minutes in the morning that is dedicated to getting my kids ready to go to school. And it literally says, you know, get kids ready to go to school. So that's whether it's the bath, the breakfast, the clothes, the wrangling them, getting them. So no, no one books a calendar meeting or a meeting over that calendar spot. So really owning the calendar is kind of the most important thing to be successful.

Charlotte Ward 5:12

Yeah. Actually, and and as you talk, it kind of strikes me that it's probably almost the flip of working remotely, right? I think that when you work remotely, everything has to be arranged. And so you are really tied to your calendar. Every meeting is a meeting on your calendar. There's no there's no kind of have you got five minutes, let's go. I mean, there's a bit of that, but like there's so much arrangement. Um, and so I know most days what the next day is gonna look like. Whereas I would imagine, to your point, like when you start a role and you've got that, you know, in little air quotes here, that kind of empty calendar, there's also a lot that you don't know because even though it's not on your calendar, it's gonna happen in the office because you're around people and you're gonna have engagements and conversations that are that would be arranged if you were remote.

Andrew Rios 6:07

Absolutely. It's a great way to the next pro tip, right butt it against that is and then understand the company calendar, right? So if you're part of a your boss's staff meeting, when is that? You've probably already established, right? If there's some already cross-functional team meetings that have the cultural norm or in place, figure out what those are right away so you can kind of work around those, right? But I say I always go in with these are my non's, okay. Now what are the other ones to start to gauge how was the how is my calendar gonna look, right? How is that gonna look? Because now you got to factor in the commute time, right? If you're like me and you coach, you're lucky enough to coach kids in the after in the evenings. Well, what does the commute time look like to then go coach the kids, right? Because sometimes we do have those late meetings. So kind of building that into the calendar as well, too.

Charlotte Ward 6:56

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Um what about the evenings? Uh are they kind of uh are they more your own once you're back in the office? Because I I work remote, have done for 22 years. My evenings are uh as fluid as my days.

Andrew Rios 7:13

They they are, they are. Now, I also I I run the experience team for an internet service provider, right? So outages can occur, service interruptions, and there might be some later meetings, but they but they are, um, but they weren't at first. So I had to build that at first, right? And I had to work a little bit. I knew that also coming in, right? It wasn't just gonna be uh, this is it, here you go. Now I was a scheduling, turn it off. It's you got to assess, you gotta understand, right? And then start to say, okay, yeah, it looks like once I set these few processes in place or or cultural norms in place or rules of engagement, you know, communication flows, they are gonna be mine. So I'll say this the first year, they weren't, right? Even at soccer practice, I'd be messaging a team member because I'm I'm coaching them through how to work through a escalation, right? So kind of working through those. But I put that goal in my head that was like, all right, in a year from now, and that's a sounds like a long time, but time flies, they will all be mine. I'll have someone else that is able to coach the team on this and work on these items with this. Um, so they could become, they should become yours, depending on the role, right?

Charlotte Ward 8:22

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes

Protecting Evenings In An On Call Role

Charlotte Ward 8:25

sense. Yeah. All right. So you've got control of your calendar, you've got your evenings back, or intend at least a plan to get them back. How how do you get any work done in the office?

Andrew Rios 8:38

Oh, yeah. I I knew you'd asked that question. So where's the work happening? Because you also got to remind yourself of people do the if the doors open, they see you. Do you have a minute? Do you have five? Can I talk to you for a second? So I uh have three days of the week. And I great example of the pro tip, but great segue. That's my deep work time. So on these three days, I have you know, a two-hour block, a 90-minute block, and another two and a half hour block. And they're at the times of the day that I'm on that day at where I focus. Usually for me, it's the morning. I'm at my best from the 6 a.m. time up until 12, 2. And then after that, put me in some meetings, let me do those things where it's now just kind of planning. So I block those off, right? Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And then you learn the also the environment. So you go in knowing you have to do that, and then you learn what are the busy days here, right? Because you can't just wedge yourself into there. You're gonna kind of have to adapt in and kind of figure it all out. So that's that's what I do. And I've also done this, and this is what I did the first year. I went across the street to the coffee shop. So I recreated my remote world. I said, all right, I got the team settled in, we had our daily stand-up, team lead knows what to do. Everybody's kind of working the queues, all the escalations are good, calendar sweet. Let me block it off now. Deep work, I'm going across the street. And I would just tell the team that I'm gonna go across the street. Starbucks, coffee shop, Capital One Cafe, whatever. I kind of mix it up a little bit because it gave me that sense of getting out, getting air, getting out of my office, and just saying, okay, now I'm gonna sit down. And in that three hours, right, leading up to lunch or even through lunch, um, all dedicated work. Because the little just I don't want to call them distractions, but the the impromptu meetings. So let's chat about this, let's do that, where we didn't have like an agenda set, a goal set, because that's what you learned in the remote world. I think that's another thing is understanding that you're gonna have a different mindset than those that come from the office and have never not had anything but the office role. Is you learn in the remote world, hey, I'm gonna call a meeting with this person, I'm gonna talk to Charlotte. The calendar's gonna have an agenda, really quick bullets, a goal of what, and if there's anything prep work we had to do, here's do this, please. So in this little 20-minute window, we can discuss, chit-chat, okay, and then move on. Learning that mindset and bringing it back in and go, okay, not not everybody has that, so let's uh help with that. I think that's the opportunity.

Charlotte Ward 11:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um when you're across the road in the coffee shop, do you still get those? I'm gonna call them not distractions but demands. Do you uh did it take some time to coach the team to say, I'm across the road, don't interrupt me, or do people cross the street and come and find you anyway if you're that close?

Andrew Rios 11:35

Well, they they could sometimes come and get a cup of coffee, maybe.

Deep Work Blocks Despite Drop Ins

Andrew Rios 11:40

But I think what what they've uh learned is um I trust them and I'm empowering them. So those first few, right? Can you take a look at this? Take a look at what? Right? I'll look at it and go, what do they want to look at? Okay, we'll technically look at kind of thing. I then use those examples. Here's a great scenario. I would cue them up, I'd see them come in, and I'd be like, Well, that's not an emergency thing. That's okay that I'm gonna coach that. Okay, oh, there's a theme here. The soft scale that I want to talk about is how do you navigate answering this question that has just happened for the first time. So it's like, okay, let me take that back and reply, we're gonna go over this after lunch, right? So set the expectation and then kind of bring them around and go, all right, let's talk about this request, right? What would you have done if I was on vacation? You eventually land there, but it becomes a coaching opportunity. So I think a lot of it is earlier on, even more coaching and kind of the mindset of urgency, right? And that I trust you to make this decision. And here's what I would do. You tell me. And and also having the tough conversations sometimes too, where then you separate it and go, Well, now you're just asking. So let me change the behavior, right? Let me just change the culture, which is I'm not there. I would use this example too. I'm not there to answer every escalation of every case. That's that's I could not even do half of my job if that was what I did every single day. So let's get you in a position to do that and let's you know talk about these themes. And the beauty of that was then I knew how to build what what I'd be working on at the coffee shop is all right, what's the training module? Right? Because I had this goal in line that was like, all right, in four months, we're gonna do a whole back-to-basics training that these experiences I'm gonna use and leverage to develop that training. Oh, conflict management, oh, resident support, you know, and then start to kind of problem-solving mentality and then just create the training with that. But it took a year, right? Go back to that. That first year was the investment.

Charlotte Ward 13:50

Yeah, yeah, it's an investment, isn't it? And and we're leaning a little bit on the topic we just talked about last time a little bit here in terms of like coaching the team. And but it's it's interesting that you um you you you sort of navigated around those kinds of conversations in in a couple of ways, I think, there. One was the kind of coaching, what would Andrew do, which has been for maybe, maybe for reasons I'll talk about on another podcast myself at some point. But it's been the topic of my my week actually this last week, because I've been sort of thinking about how I bring my leaders on to because ultimately I want them to deliver the support experience and support vision that is in my head that I've written on various slide decks over the years. But that comes with a lot of coaching and a lot of like them being able to understand and navigate situations in a way that I would understand and navigate those situations simply because it's the experience I want to deliver and it's the you know, it's shaped by battle scars that I have uh, you know, um suffered uh, you know, over 30 years in the business. Like it's a lot of experience. And so this kind of idea of like, what would Andrew do, what would Charlotte do in these situations is if you can get that across to your team, however, um that gets you out of some of those repeat conversations, enabling some of that deep work in and empowering them. But um, you know, you also talked talked a little bit about making it more formal, formalized training and handing off to them. And both are important, I think.

Andrew Rios 15:31

Absolutely. And I think one of the things I'll um is even helping folks respect their own time in an office environment, right? Uh one of the things is I I take my break every day, right? I take my lunch, and lunch is and my breaks, right? So for I'll do the whole California law thing. You gotta take two 15-minute breaks, one before lunch, one after lunch, and you tell her take at least a half hour lunch. Well, you know, on my calendar, you know, between 11:50 and 1.15, right, is lunch. And just simply says lunch. And I know that nobody people respect it, right? And that's and then take your lunch. Don't sit at your desk and try to

Coaching Interruptions Into Team Ownership

Andrew Rios 16:10

work and eat your lunch at the same time. Like check out. Sometimes I read a book, sometimes I call my mom, you know, sometimes I just sit there and aimlessly wander LinkedIn. You know, sometimes I'll just I'll I'll take a nap, right? I go to my class, I'm gonna take a 30-minute nap. Take that lunch, and then your team, right? This is one of the big things in the office, will see that too. And they'll understand that to be the norm. Same thing with the brakes, and I'll do that, right? I'm running on the contact center, right? There are agents out there. I have the office, I walk out, hey, I'm gonna take a lunch, take a 20-minute walk, be right back. Right? And and I don't say, even though they know it's implied, if people do reach out to me, they need an emergency, right? Like my car broke down. Oh, be safe, get home safe, right? Something like that. Um, let me know if you need anything, because I'm just gonna walk around. They know that, but it's kind of that changing that mindset too, which is oh, the boss is taking a break. I should also take my break too. Not just because the law says, but that's important. And I've seen that change over the course of the year too, where people, it was the badge of honor. No, I worked through my breaks and my lunch, and I'm like, all right.

Charlotte Ward 17:17

Like I don't.

Andrew Rios 17:21

I didn't. I didn't ask you to, I don't expect so I follows up with that. I don't, I don't ask you to, I don't expect you to, I don't want you to. Is there any other adjective that I can, you know, help deliver that message with?

Charlotte Ward 17:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. The the other thing that you touched on um was the kind of wandering up to people's desks and having people wander up to your desk. That's my biggest fear of going back to the office, I think. Maybe my second biggest fear, I won't tell you my first is, but my second biggest fear of going back to the office is is the catch casual wandering around kind of conversations. And I do recall when I was in the office being as guilty as other people were to me, of like just wandering up to somebody's desk and saying, Have you got a minute? Um, you know, which you can do in remote. I do pop into people's DMs and say, Have you got a minute to chat about this? But there's there's the natural barrier there of like we hop both have to agree that we're available, even if it's even if it's impromptu, right? And you don't get that opportunity to agree if somebody comes up to your desk. And uh I was I was very interrupted when I was in an office. I was also very guilty of interrupting other people. I remember I remember in my like maybe two or three years into my career when I was at Oracle, one guy took to like that was one of our senior support engineers who I lent on quite a lot for really complex cases. He pinned a sign up at his desk saying, uh, you know, effectively, busy, don't interrupt me. I just walked right past it. I just walked right past it and asked my question, you know, guilty as charged. He was he's like, Did you see that? I was like, yeah, sort of. Still need help.

Andrew Rios 19:10

Oh yeah. And and um that two great stories there, but you know, I try, guilty still, but not as much as I was when I worked in an office full-time before this, right? But I try, because cubicles and offices and stuff is not to do that. And I I I I'm pretty good at it because I've been on the other side. So I try never to do that. If I see someone at the the water cooler or the you know, the coffee machine or come into the lobby, I'm gonna say, Hey, do you think I do you think I can get on your calendar later 15 minutes and chat about something? Try to be more specific, letting them know, hey, I'm gonna put this on the calendar. And then it what's about, oh, it's about X. Oh, okay, cool. And then be done with it. And I try to also model it by if my door's open and you see the earbuds in, then I'm probably listening to my house music, working on paperwork, doing stuff to keep myself going, right? If you see the door closed, you know that I'm in a meeting because I don't want anybody hearing it and you gotta close the door. So there's kind of those little norms that I've helped, you know, uh you lead with, right? Just okay, so people don't, but you say that and I will be ready for that. Be ready for that. So I I tell the leaders or I spoke with some about this a few weeks ago, which was like, hey, you gotta either adapt to it or

Lunch Breaks And Modeling Healthy Norms

Andrew Rios 20:30

let them adapt to you, which is be firm and like if they ask you, do you have a minute? And you don't say, I actually don't. I need to finish this. Uh, what is it you want to go over and feel comfortable with it not being a feel like you're rejecting them? You're just answering the question because it's true. If then it's not, and and I think it's the ultimate context switching thing. You know, I use it with my team as well, too. Takes you what, 10, 15 minutes to switch back after being. I mean, if you're working on something, then all do I have a minute? You've already okay now. So that's its own talk on its own. Navigating the soft skill of saying no to do you have oh man, it really is.

Charlotte Ward 21:09

And do you know what? That's as much a problem in domestic life as it is in work life. Um, my and my by domestic life, I mean remote work life when you've got family around, you know. I I have I have a uh I'm lucky enough to have an office with a door at home, uh, very much operating the same way. If I've got the door closed, I'm on a call. Nobody comes in. There's not a lock, but they know I've conditioned them to use your word. But it but if the door's open, you know, I'm sort of notionally interruptible, but I might be in deep work. I might just be not even like calendarized deep work, but I just might have gone down some kind of technical rabbit hole or operational rabbit hole. Um and, you know, some kid turns up at the door, usually one of mine, and I will feel like I'm being pulled out of like a A foxhole backwards by the tail. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I can just feel myself kind of being jerked backwards and like getting all my heckles up in the meantime because I I was somewhere else, like you know, cognitively I was gone, but the door was open. And I think that's uh to your point, that's a a different sort of conditioning. Like, and and sometimes they have to adapt to you, and sometimes you have to adapt to them. And it it cuts both ways, right?

Andrew Rios 22:26

It it it really does. I think that's by having that open communication about it and being comfortable having that first little uncomfortable conversation about behavioral norms and why this is the approach you like versus the approach that's happening. And that would also be hard. Another one is like, remember, there are folks, you know, who who they need to work from the office. They love working in an office. That's who they are. And that's okay. Right. So remember, there's also gonna be those, which then can lead to someone like myself who was adjusting to it. And I all the factors worked for me because it's two exits away, it's home, it's kind of opportunity I was looking for. So they all worked out. It doesn't mean it wasn't hard the first six months, because you know, your schedule will be different, right? Your schedule you will find yourself thinking about where it was easy. Uh all the little things add up to pile up, the laundry, the dishes, the quick, the quick closet clean out you would do, the quick, okay, I got 15 minutes between this. I'm gonna get some water, I'm gonna quickly load the dishes and be moving on, right? Those things will start to pile up, but don't let them burden you.

Charlotte Ward 23:34

Just plan them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the it's just a matter of like uh, you know, one of those like little 15 puzzles, you know, the 15 square puzzles. They you just move the tiles around. You just have to arrange things differently, right?

Andrew Rios 23:48

Yeah, and and I always say the most like if we have the you know, what's what's the big one? What's the big one? Don't be afraid to own your calendar, right? I think we're all trying to be taught that always, even the even in the remote world. But don't be afraid to. And because of that, make sure you put everything on your calendar. Don't forget to put that doctor's appointment, though, because then a meeting shows up and then you put your decision.

Charlotte Ward 24:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree. I think that's uh I

Bringing Hybrid Flexibility To The Office

Charlotte Ward 24:20

think that's the most empowerment you can give anyone, actually, remote or or in the office, is own your calendar, be responsive to your calendar, both in terms of keeping it up to date, responding to other people's invitations, blocking out time, um, and and just really structure your week around around that tool. And and I actually think not many support people are very good at doing that. They get driven by tickets and they forget the calendar. Leaders are a different breed, and we do need to be respectful of calendars more so, I think.

Andrew Rios 24:57

Absolutely, absolutely. And that was the big thing going into it was balancing it for the folks that are coming in new that have been there, and then myself who kind of wanted to see a culture of, and I've been able to do that here now, which is it's semi-hybrid because I have it created and enabled a work from home program for the folks who now. So it kind of opened it up the other way, which is life happens. I understand that sometimes it might be easier to start your shift at home because you have a long commute, have your doctor's appointment, and then come back and finish your shift at home rather than once you drive in, drive back, then maybe I'll make you drive back or maybe I'll let you stay. So I think there's been a a great learning in bringing that mindset into people too, which has turned out pretty well. Gives people more freedom.

Charlotte Ward 25:50

Yeah, good for you, good for you. Well, coach, it's been a really great exploration of getting back to the office. I'm not sure you've sold it to me 100%, but you've given me food for thought. Maybe maybe I'll venture in a bit more. Who knows? Who knows?

Andrew Rios 26:04

Once a quarter, you'll be just fine, Charlotte.

Charlotte Ward 26:07

Once a quarter is trying to man, so much, so much.

Andrew Rios 26:13

Always. Thank you so much. As always, thank you. Always good talking with you. Looking forward to the next one and looking forward to the next one with some other support leaders. So come on out, talk to Charlotte, have those deep conversations and let others learn from them.

Charlotte Ward 26:26

Now you're selling the podcast. I think you I think you need a career change. It's not support, it's selling from now on. Thank you so much. Well, I'll see you on Customer Support Sellers or something next time.

Andrew Rios 26:38

Thank you. Do good, do well, everyone.

Charlotte Ward 26:40

Thanks so much, Andrew. Great talking to you as always. Bye now. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two nine eight for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.