Me to We Talk Podcast
🎧 Listen to the Me to We Talk Podcast! Join us as we discuss all things dating and marriage! Gain dating advice to drive your relationship towards marriage! Fun, relatable daily tips to keep your relationships on its toes! Nothing is off limits! Our goal is to help relationships move from Me to We through dating, engagement and marriage...one couple at a time. We promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...So Help Me God! Text "MetoWe" to 22828 to SUBSCRIBE to be a part of our TRIBE!
Me to We Talk Podcast
When the Holidays Hurt: Navigating Grief, Healing and Reconnection During the Holidays with Dr. Michelle Robinson, LPC, LMHCA, ADHD & CCSP
In this episode of the Me to We Talk podcast, Elders Conell & Rhonda Holllins, delve into the poignant yet powerful topic of navigating grief and the anger of loss during the holiday season. Our esteemed guest, Dr. Michelle Robinson, author of acclaimed book, “Why Hast the Mighty Fallen” (link), and licensed therapist with extensive experience in both personal and professional realms of grief, shares her insights on transforming loss into a journey of reconnection with God and loved ones.
As the festive season, often a time of joy, approaches, those who have lost loved ones may face an overwhelming wave of emotions.
Dr. Robinson emphasizes the importance of addressing grief with understanding and compassion. More importantly addressing anger with God after the loss of a loved one—don’t worry God can handle your anger.
We begin by acknowledging the stark reality that approximately 2.5 million people die annually in the United States, leaving behind an average of five grieving individuals each. This staggering statistic underscores the widespread nature of grief and the necessity for open discussions and support systems.
Learn, throughout the episode, coping strategies for managing grief, particularly during holidays, birthdays, and other significant occasions.
Check out this podcast’s episode topic chapters;
• Understanding the complexities of grief during festive seasons
• Importance of remembering and honoring the loved ones we’ve lost
• Practical coping strategies to manage grief in daily life
• Acknowledging survivor’s remorse and learning to embrace joy
• Communicating openly about grief with family and friends
• The significance of addressing anger & maintaining faith through loss
• Seeking professional support and resources for healing
• Practical steps for reconnecting with one's faith after a loss.
✔️Buy our Book 📕- Marriage Material- Pre & Post Training Guide - 2022 Amazon Bestseller for 6-weeks straight for Christian Marriage!!!: (link)
🎤 2021 Podcast Magazine Feature 4 1/2 mics out of 5!!!
🏆 2020 Best Relationship podcast - Black Podcasters Award
✔️Checkout our link tree to see latest updates from Me to We ministries & the Me to We Talk podcast here: (link).
✔️If you like this podcast or have topics you would like us to discuss on the Me to We Talk podcast please leave a message on our podcast page, follow the (link) here and click the leave a voicemail tab at the bottom right of your screen. Then leave us a message! We may invite you on the podcast!
✔️Please follow us on IG and FB at @metowelove Love you all! ❤️
welcome back everyone. It is the me too. We talk podcast and, yes, it is the truth serum series, where we promise to tell you the truth, the entire truth and nothing but the truth so help me god now we have a great episode yet again. I get excited. What?
Speaker 3:No, all of them are great. What do you mean?
Speaker 2:yet again. He's so right.
Speaker 3:You're implying that something isn't great that we do.
Speaker 2:I know, but I'm really excited about our topic today and I'm excited about our special guest.
Speaker 3:It is so many good things that are going on, but we also want to.
Speaker 2:Even though we have a very lighthearted podcast, I think we can say that often we have to be realistic and talk about all aspects Facts. So, just in case you're not aware of what this podcast is all about, we are here to help couples and families get from me to we, one couple at a time, amen. So that means if you are married yes. If you are seriously dating, yes. Yes. If you're engaged.
Speaker 3:That's the best. You are married. Yes, if you are seriously dating.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, if you're engaged right, that's the best thing you could ever do.
Speaker 2:Get engaged, yes, get engaged. Get engaged To get married, so that you can get married. Well, you have come to the right place, and so we are going to go deeper. This holiday season, there's always cheer, there's always great things that happen during the holidays, but what if I told you that the holidays, a time meant for joy and celebration, can be one of the hardest times of the year for those who have lost a loved one?
Speaker 3:No, that's facts. That's, if when you say that, me myself, it does hit home, I think about my dad this time of the year, because you know we haven't had him. What since what? 16 years? Yeah, haven't had him. What since what? 16 years? Yeah, he never met the boys. So you know, you all, you reflect, yeah, you reflect, and you kind of just wonder, what if it? Comes to, especially when it comes to holidays, yeah, especially when it comes to holidays.
Speaker 2:So, you know, my husband just brought up, you know, talking about losing his parent. But what if it's a spouse? Um, you know a significant other, a child, right. A sibling, a cousin and even a friend, right, the festive season can trigger deep feelings of grief and loneliness, you know. So we want to make sure that you all are there with us when we're talking about that. And let's not forget what this podcast title is all about, and it titled when holidays hurt. Yeah, I know, today we're joined by a licensed therapist. Uh, her name is michelle robison.
Speaker 3:Doctor, do you guys put some okay, we're gonna put that in there.
Speaker 2:License on the name doctor who has not only guided countless couples through the grief of losing a loved one, but has also experienced some profound loss herself, and we hope that we can explore that today. But she's also going to teach us today, through conversation, how to navigate through those challenging times. So I want to give them a great statistic that they may not be thinking of, but statistics show that about 2.5 million people die in the United States annually. Okay, so each are leaving an average of five grieving people behind. Wow, multiplied by 2.5 million. Wow, that's huge. That is.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm not sure what the population of the US is, but obviously let's just use round numbers and say 10 million people are grieving somebody and I'm a part of that statistic myself, Like I said earlier. Like I said, with the loss of my dad I'm a part of that. So I know what you're saying, but that's still a lot nevertheless, no matter what the number is.
Speaker 2:That's a thought that you don't really think about. And if you go further from, if you're losing a child and I'm going to give more statistics because we feel in our heart and our spirit, god dealt with us on this one. We have so many loved ones that we know of that have left this earth in this season, right, and so when, when the season comes back around, how do we equip them? You know, not our way, not the world's way, but God's way, yeah do we equip?
Speaker 2:them. You know, not our way, not the world's way, but God's way, you know. So, if you've lost a parent, if you've lost a child, if you've lost anyone, we want to make sure that you have everything you need to help you recenter and reconnect, you know, either with the rest of your family, with your spouse's family, and then, most importantly, how can you reconnect and recenter with God?
Speaker 3:man, that's deep and it hits different too, like I said, because of the fact like, for instance, losing a parent is different than losing a child, because a parent you know, they've lived a certain amount of life versus a child, no parent wants to outlive their child, no, so it just hits totally different, especially like this time of year with Thanksgiving, christmas, new Year's, when you just wonder what if, especially for a child. That's just man, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, before we dive deeper, let me introduce our esteemed guest.
Speaker 3:We want to give honor where honor is due.
Speaker 2:Michelle Robinson has been a dedicated servant of the Lord since, you know, almost childbirth.
Speaker 3:Let's just put it that way, right.
Speaker 2:And she has, since 2008, served among 100 elders at Family Christian Center, where we also serve under the guidance of our pastor, steve Muncy. Michelle has held various leadership roles, including intercessory prayer, meaning she's a prayer warrior. You want a therapist? That's a prayer warrior. Ok, you can be strategic in prayer and take the enemy down. Not only is that, but she is in the baptism ministry, she's on the elders council and as a teacher and mentor for eldership and catechism candidates. In addition to her church leadership, michelle is a licensed therapist specializing in grief counseling Amen. She's passionate about helping individuals and families navigate the complexities of loss and finding healing through faith, but on top of all of that, she is also an accomplished author.
Speaker 3:Do you hear me Give?
Speaker 2:it to me. Yes, her first book. Why has the Mighty Fallen? I love the title Right. It was published and it's available on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble and through Christian Faith Publishing Company. And she is the proud mother of one beautiful daughter, arielle Amani, and she eagerly, you know, awaits the plan for what's next for her.
Speaker 3:God has got it waiting for her right.
Speaker 2:So you know, without further ado, let's give honor where honor is due. Elder Michelle therapist. Licensed therapist extraordinaire. Thank you for joining us on the Media. We Talk podcast.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Thank you for having me. You two are one of my favorite couples at our church and I'm just honored to be here and to be a part of this event taking place at this time. Thank you so very much for having me.
Speaker 3:I receive that, we receive that. You're one of my special people too. Come on now.
Speaker 2:Yes, amen, yes you know you want to glean from someone that has experience and understanding. And that is one thing I can say 100% about you. It just pours off of you.
Speaker 3:You know you exude it right.
Speaker 2:It permeates the room. So when we get close it'll be like, ooh, let me lean in and get a little bit me lean in and get a little bit Well.
Speaker 1:I tend to say if I'm anything, it's definitely, you know, to the glory of God. I enjoy working and loving on God's people, and I think that's what we're here to do, and so, in any way that I can be of an assist, to help someone in their journey, I do believe that that's part of my God-given assignment, and so I'm always just ready to dive on in. So again, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Amen, amen. And again I want to just thank you again for what you just said there, cause I know anytime we've kind of ushered someone toward you to kind of seek that guidance, you openheartedly accept them and kind of help them maneuver through that newfound space of grief and they come out better than we gave them to you. Oh, that's true, that's so true, they always come out better you know.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you're OK with us, we're ready to dive in.
Speaker 2:Because, we have so many questions, and now not only do I feel like this is going to answer the many questions that the couples have asked us through Prep for Marriage and who just reach out to us on the regular basis. I just think I have questions myself right you know, and I know Connell does too, so you know if you're okay with it. If you wouldn't mind, can you share a bit about your personal journey with grief and how it has shaped your approach to therapy?
Speaker 1:Well, sure, sure, I'll definitely be more than willing to share with that. Well, my personal journey involving having lost two spouses, one in 1999, my daughter was just two, and then more recently, in 2019, my daughter was 22. But my journey has has been, you know, I'd always counseled a lot of times, counsel within the church, but then, when grief, you know, came, came at my door by losing a spouse, with medical complications in both instances. One of the reasons why I currently work in the underserved communities African American communities predominantly is because we tend to have difficulties and, unfortunately, our demise is because of hypertension, congestive heart failure and diabetes, and at least two of those knocked at my door with respect to my spouse and being married. But, yes, it was such a crying time when it happened because the first time my daughter was only two years old and, of course, that was very heart-wrenching because it's like well, god, what am I going to do now? Raise my daughter by myself, and I thought we'd be literally married forever. So, one of the things when life trajectory changes for you and you don't know what else to do but rely on God, yes, you have to rely on the Lord to see you through and to carry you through.
Speaker 1:Now I also believe that God uses other people and, again, I didn't always ascribe to therapy. Until that time, actually, I was taking my daughter to a pediatrician and there was a door that said serenity counseling. And I knew serenity meant peace, calm and quiet. And I poked my head in the door and the gentleman said, ma'am, may I help you? And I kind of got a little startled and I tried to turn around and go the other way and he said come on in, come on in. So he told me what he did counseling and that really started my counseling journey and I learned a lot about grief.
Speaker 1:I learned a lot that I needed to go through that I just really wasn't prepared for. I grew up in the church and church certainly had its place and helped me and individuals prayed for me and, you know, just helped me in such a myriad of ways. But I also realized that I needed to understand what was happening. I needed to understand how to process grief, and that is something that I gained in that journey and so that actually helped me for the next time and you know, years later, 2019, I would go through it right before COVID hit, and so I felt I was a little bit better prepared. But again, even when it hits, you still can't be fully, fully prepared because no one wants to get that call, no one wants to hear what they heard and see what they've seen, and so those are some areas that you know in my personal journey. But God has been faithful and always has been, but it's been tough, but he's been faithful.
Speaker 2:You know. So you said you started your journey at that point. Now I know you have quite a few accreditations behind it. If you wouldn't mind just clarifying for our listeners some of those accreditations? So I know you're an LPC, an LMHCA, adhd, ccsp. Can you, outside of it being initials right, can you help us out understand what that means? Sure, Sure.
Speaker 1:So an LPC is a licensed professional counselor. That is the tier of licensure for the state of Illinois. I'm duly licensed, meaning I hold two licenses in the state of Illinois and Indiana. Indiana's credentialing licensure is a licensed mental health counseling associate, so that's the LMHCA. I am currently working on the LCPC, which is a clinical portion of licensure, which is like a second tier licensure.
Speaker 1:I went on to get further accreditation in ADHD, which is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, as well as autism. My mentors were instructing me that it's good for a therapist to have a niche, something that they feel they can kind of focus on and become a little more knowledgeable in a particular area. And because when I did my internship in Holwood, illinois, the proprietor gave me a lot of young children and most of them had ADHD and I kind of backed myself into it. But actually I come to enjoy and to learn a lot about autism and ADHD and I was able to become certified in those areas as well. I also work with individuals dealing with grief predominantly, and as I look when they talk about the trajectory of my life, I get to see why I had to go through it, so I can now help others go through grief. But most of my population deals with grief ADHD, anxiety, depression, traumatic experiences and I actually do couple therapies, so those are and I do career counseling as well, and so those are things that you know.
Speaker 1:I'm always looking to have clients. I'm always willing to help and assist in those areas.
Speaker 3:Hey man, hey man. So you're saying Amen. So what you're saying is that you do know something about this.
Speaker 1:Just a little bit that.
Speaker 3:I do receive that, I do receive.
Speaker 1:Just a little bit.
Speaker 3:But if we're staying in the vein of the holidays, and in your opinion, what are some of the common challenges people face after losing someone? I don't want to put a time frame on it, like losing someone within a year or two or just more recently, but what are some challenges people tend to face, when the holidays do come around, when it comes to dealing with that grief?
Speaker 1:Sure, a lot of the common challenges is not only do you lose the person physically, but you lose everything that's attached to them. You lose everything that they brought with them to your life, whether it's financially, whether it's emotionally. However they supported you, you lose all of that. In cases where grandma or grandpa has passed away, they may have been the ones to pick up the kids after school while mom and dad are still working, and so you know, you lose everything. You lose the value that they brought to your family, and so life has to readjust. You have to prepare for a new norm.
Speaker 1:When you've experienced a life and a death, rather, for those that you love, and depending upon their position or their role in the family if it was father, if it was mother, if it was grandparent, if it was a child you lose what they brought to your family as well as personally. They're not there at the dinner table, you don't see them, you don't get to buy presents for them, and so it can be very daunting and very heavy around this time of the holiday and of the holiday season, and so, as therapists, we often do talk to our clients and tell them ways that they can learn to work through. You have to process through grief. It's not something that you can jump over and get over right away.
Speaker 3:I never thought about it like that. I mean I realized the truth, I realized you missed that person and you miss them in your life, but I never thought about it like that. I mean I realize you miss that person and you miss them in your life, but I never thought about the position they hold and all that they encompass, and I never thought about it like that. That's oh man.
Speaker 3:That's just a different way of thinking, you're right. So if that be the standpoint, what coping strategies would you suggest people can kind of implement during these times when they might start feeling some type of way as far as just to kind of kind of push through?
Speaker 1:sure, learning. One of the coping strategies could be learning to celebrate your loved one's legacy. Learning to celebrate who they are to you, who they are to you, who they meant to you. What type of significance, what type of impact did they have upon your life? Oftentimes we talked about your five stages of grief, which is anger, denial and shock, bargaining, depression and then acceptance. So while you're processing through, sometimes we just stay stuck on the day we learned of their demise, the day we, you know. Oftentimes we know what we were doing, you know where we were when we learned of it, and sometimes it caused us to be stuck in that dispensation of time when we learn of their death. So, holidays and their birthdays, you know, when I talk to my clients, I say their birthday is going to come every year. The day they pass is going to come every year. Father's Day, mother's Day, grandparents' Day these days are going to come every year. So what would help is learning of ways to memorialize your loved one wearing their favorite color, going to a dinner spot with the family Oftentimes there's a tendency to withdraw and isolate and so learning how to resist that desire to pull away from people.
Speaker 1:And oh, I'll just grieve by myself. I'll just cry, I'll just go visit the cemetery or do these different things, but the more we can learn to still insert ourselves with other family members, because not only who that loved one is or was to you, they were also in another role with someone else. So if it's grandma, they were your sibling's grandmother too. If it's father and you have other children, they're their father too, and so sometimes we forget that we're in these other roles. You're still mom, you're still auntie, you're still cousin, you're still brother, you're still uncle, and so other people still need you to hold that role and hold that position, even though the loved one is lost.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So sometimes knowing to try to resist that desire to pull away, isolate until nobody understands and it may not be that they understand what you're going through personally but we have to know that others are going through it as well. They may go through it in a different way, but again, they're going through as well, and so sometimes being able to talk about it in those moments, to celebrate that person, who they are to you, can be helpful when you can do it together as a family. This was so harsh to me when my first husband's birthday would come around my daughter and even with her stepdad, my second husband, we celebrated her dad's birthday every year. We'd get a cupcake, we'd light a candle and my second husband had no problem We'd sing happy birthday in his honor. So, learning how to still honor, memorialize and celebrate the life that god allowed that person to have for that season you had them amen can be very helpful.
Speaker 3:Amen and elder roberts, everything you said was amazing. Or, dr roberts, let me be, I want to address you as such. Everything you said was amazing and I think it's so true for the fact that, because people don't know how to handle you, quote unquote with kid gloves. Sometimes, depending on how you feel around certain seasons, they won't bring it up unless you do so.
Speaker 3:If you don't celebrate that loss or that person, then, like you just said, they'll internalize it as well because they don't want to upset you. And so that's you're so right. It's so important that we continue to, to celebrate the life that was lived and cherish what we've lost and allow others around us to do the same, because once you start pigeonholing somebody else in that space because you don't want to be around it or you can't deal with it, then, for lack of a better word, that memory is lost. That person has lost us even more because we can't celebrate them like we should. And I want to back up one more time. I apologize, I didn't get a chance to meet your first husband, but your second I would have never known.
Speaker 3:That was your second, because of the love you and your daughter showed for him. Yeah, when I saw her with him, I would have never thought that was anybody but his daughter for the fact of how she loved on him so I want to just commend you all on that as well, for the fact that he, like he, was able to celebrate your first husband's birthday with you all because family is family regardless, and that's how you all treat him as family and that should be a part of it as well right and it yeah
Speaker 2:and I just want to say that you had, you had such, and you still do have such a great example. That's why you can couple. Counseling should come easy to you because you know people can say they've had one great love of their life and you've had two.
Speaker 3:Right, and what does that say about you?
Speaker 2:So God has given so much to you, and I know that you have have lost so much as well too, and so I appreciate that that you are sharing with us today, and and I guess that leads me to my next question that you know, when you had two such great loves in your life, right, how was it that you were able to do this? And then, most importantly, how can someone else maintain their faith when they may feel angry or abandoned after a loss?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that's a very good question. I want to add one other thing, actually, yes, one other thing to the previous question. Learning to journal, like writing your thoughts down, can be another coping strategy. Sometimes writing what we call in psychology a goodbye letter, sometimes you may want to share hey, such and such may did well in gymnastics today, and even though you know physically of course we know you're not going to give that letter to them but just being able to offload that information in a letter to still keep them up to date, it can kind of help lift the load of grief on you to be able to write down your thoughts. That's what we do in psychotherapy, is talk therapy, but learning to journal or write down your thoughts, what you may want to say to that person, can help relieve the heaviness on your heart.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:That just made me feel so emotional Just thinking about that, just thinking about how you could write and just tell them about your day and things that you know that they would be proud of, or would have been excited to see you know, we don't know we don't know what happens afterwards, Right, Dr Michelle?
Speaker 2:But what I will say is that I believe that you know, that our loved ones know where we're at, you know in life that they may be able to, not not in all circumstances, but I do believe, if they're in Abraham's bosom, if they're, you know, in, in, in a waiting period for heaven, that they may have an opportunity to see you.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, definitely. That's a big, a big part of it being able to just share. Because, elder Hollins, you made a statement earlier when you said sometimes people don't know how to be with you and they feel sometimes they don't mention your loved one because they feel, oh, that's going to make her cry, oh, that's going to make him feel sad. But sometimes I look forward to when people do say oh, you know, I had a thought and I thought about something Elder Robinson said and I just laugh and sometimes you want someone to laugh with you, you want someone to memorialize and celebrate his life, because sometimes people don't know how to respond, so they don't say anything and you're like, wow, you're wondering.
Speaker 1:And again, transparency, sometimes I think, wow, do they remember my husband the way I did, do they? You know, when you know they don't say his name and you know. And so I like when someone comes to me and say you know what you know, elder, he mentored me and I remember this, this, this, and I just laugh and that's comforting for me. And so one of the things that I tell my clients don't be afraid to share how you feel, even in the process of grief, you know, even in that process to be able to say you know what? I remember he said something so silly and that's comforting to me.
Speaker 1:I laugh about something you say and I think about something that still, like, holds that place in my heart, you know and so sometimes other people don't know if you'll be okay with it, know if you'll be okay with it, so when you just be okay with it, then that lets them learn to be okay with it as well and that's that's another good point.
Speaker 3:You say the more often you can, the more often you can be okay in that space around other people, the more often they will be okay with doing it more.
Speaker 2:So that's a very good point.
Speaker 1:I agree with that and knowing that it's okay to cry, you know a lot of times people oh, I don't want to make them cry to. Crying is cleansing and purging. Crying is okay, it's a way to get that heaviness off of your heart. You know, and I think there's a passage in scripture that says god bottles up our tears.
Speaker 1:Oh, that how awesome is that For him, to every tear we shed, he bottles them up and he holds them. He knows what every tear is for, what every tear means. So when you think about that it's like it's okay, God can handle my tears, he knows exactly what to do with my tears and again, it helps to offload and you share in that process and you allow others to freely share in your process of grief as you both or the family members go through it together.
Speaker 2:Yes, ma'am, you know what I'll say. I do want to go back to the original question I was asking, but we went on a better path.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest with you I love that path, but it made me know it's perfect, it was. It's actually where we should have gone in the first place, but I it makes me want to jump ahead to another thought that I had, and I hope this is okay. You know you were just talking about someone laughing with you. You know and and and memorializing that person because you want to remember that they had an impact on you and this life. So what advice do you have for someone who feels guilty? You know who, who, when they experience joy or happiness after that person isn't there.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and that's very common. I'm glad that that you asked that question, because that's what we call survivor's remorse. Ask that question because that's what we call survivors remorse, survivors remorse. Sometimes we find that individuals can shut down and feel that they don't have a right to smile, to laugh, to go to the party, to show up in at engagement and and and that's that's part of that process, because you feel that you know and and again. It's just like we get a driver's license, we get a marriage license. Nobody give us a license degree right, so we have to like figure that out.
Speaker 1:And whether we go to professional help or just kind of muddle through it, we don't really know that there are ways that we can help ourselves to process through it. So the survivor's remorse is where we feel guilty for having joy and happiness, for being able to laugh, because we feel, no, I shouldn't be having fun. This is a sad time and we oftentimes don't think you know what my loved one would love for me to enjoy myself and to keep living. And sometimes this is a part that I deal with with clients and I talk about it's okay to live, it's okay to keep living your life even though they're not with you. You carry them in your heart, you carry them in your spirit, you carry parts of them, and so it's okay to still take care of yourself, to still laugh, to still do those things, to still practice self-care.
Speaker 1:Sometimes people go to the opposite and they stop taking care of themselves. Sometimes they stop, you know, honoring personal commitments. They they're not, they don't show up, they're not there because they don't feel that they just have that wherewithal to do it. But this is where God's grace comes in, because he gives us the grace, the enablement, power to do what we need to do.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's right. That's right. You know when you said that's invaluable.
Speaker 2:That is very invaluable. And when you said that, I mean first of all, I got chills and and that's not dramatic, that was for real I really got chills thinking about that and you know, it also made me think. You know, if you are that individual and we have done this through the prep for marriage course, we always ask couples to ask those deep questions while they're here, right, so we'll say, hey, how would they want you to live life If they weren't here? You know how would they want that? And remember it, write it down, take a picture. We just say it all the time.
Speaker 2:Say, just remember that moment in your mindset. What did they want for you? And then, when they are through that grieving process, and if you are listening and you're in that grieving process right now, what is the answer? You know and nine times out of 10, the answer is that they don't want you to suffer or for you to stop being you the person that they fell in love with, or or the parent that they looked up to or the child that they cared for.
Speaker 2:You know they want to see the full version of you and yeah and part of that I would, instead of calling it survivor's remorse, let's call it survivor's work is that you need to uphold that memory, that of yourself, for them. Okay, you know and, and I just think, what you just said, right there was so powerful, and if you're listening it's not by accident.
Speaker 2:And I truly believe that God wanted you to hear this today. So take that in and start the healing process while you can. And why? While you are able to? Because we don't want to ever give people their flowers when they're gone. Let's do it now.
Speaker 2:Amen, you know you brought me back again to the earlier question, and that was you know, and and this is what I would tell you Canel can jump in on this as well that how often that we see a reversal of faith when there is loss, that we see a reversal of faith when there is loss, and so you know. Going back to that, how can someone maintain that? How can they maintain their faith when they feel angry?
Speaker 3:angry with God if I'm being honest angry with God and feeling abandoned after loss.
Speaker 2:What would?
Speaker 1:you say there, yes, and I think that's a very strong point. You know, how do you maintain faith when you feel angry? One of the things, even growing up as a younger girl younger girl I remember, you know, hearing people say you know, don't, don't be angry with God, don't get you know. Just through my own relationship with God and through my own grief, I realized God can handle my anger, god can handle your anger. You know, the Bible says be angry but sin not. And so sometimes we feel angry. Anger is one of the first of the five main stages of grief. So we're going to feel angry. Sometimes you're angry at the doctors, you're angry at other family members, you're angry at the situation. Sometimes you're angry at the person who passed. Now that goes a little deeper.
Speaker 3:That does.
Speaker 1:It goes a little deeper and with the clientele that I see, oftentimes I find and again even transparency being angry that a person didn't do the things that they should have done. And then you start rationalizing, you start saying, well, maybe they would have lived longer if they did this or that, and so sometimes you're angry about those things. Sometimes you're angry about those things, you know a person who may, you know, have other substance usage that may lead to their demise. So you're angry that, oh, if they wouldn't have done that, they would still be here. They robbed me of the benefit of their life. And so the anger can go in so many different directions. Being a Christian, you have to understand that God can handle your anger.
Speaker 1:God can handle any emotion, any emotion that we go through. And so when you're honest with God and I must take a pause here to say when my second husband passed, I remember saying to God I said I know this is not your character, but I want you to know how I feel, so I'm going to say it I said I feel like I'm being punished. I said, but I know, I know, so I preface it by saying God, there's nothing in your word to support what I'm about to say Other than but I got to tell you how I feel right now, that I feel like I'm being punished. Tell you how I feel right now that I feel like I'm being punished. He says, daughter and lo, I will be with you always. And so he let me know. It's okay to tell me how you feel, it's okay to share our feelings, even with God, because he says when we're open, when we're honest you know, david was a man after God's own heart because he was open and he was honest, he said God, I did it, it was me, I did it, and so it's okay to let God know how we feel, so he can take that and then he can continue to mold you and shape you into how he's fortifying you even through your grief.
Speaker 1:Amen, grief causes you to experience God on a whole different level. It's one thing to read that he's a rock in a weary land, but when you have to know he's your rock, when you have to know that for yourself, it takes on a whole new meaning. My relationship with God deepened when I lost both spouses, and so people would look and how is that? Because now no one has to tell me that he's a way maker, a miracle worker, that when you're lonely he can be there for you, that you don't have to compromise your character and who you are, because your flesh gets a hold of you. So no one has to tell me that.
Speaker 1:I experienced that. So to have that experience on a whole nother level with God, it's just like wow. You know it's not just a song, it's not just something we hear doing praise and worship. I know it for myself now, like I never had known before. So that's how your faith can override the feeling of anger, because feeling the anger is just an emotion. We're going to experience different feelings. So oftentimes you have to not let your emotions leave you, but let your rational mind leave you, along with the word of God. God's word is going to line up Right, right, and so it's okay to have those feelings. Feelings can ebb and flow, they'll go up, they'll go down, but the fact is, my God is still a healer, my God is still able, right.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, you got me when you said God can handle your anger. I've never thought of that that way. He is the almighty God. He can handle it, all you know, and so he created the emotion.
Speaker 3:almighty god, he can handle it all you know, and so he created the emotion.
Speaker 2:So obviously he can handle the emotion you know, and so yeah you didn't, you even dropped something right there you did, you put it in your shando, it's in my shando, it's deep in my spirit now it's not going nowhere and and I and I understand others feel this as well. I'm telling you this is such healing to so many people right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like this is what they need. And can I add this Elder, yes, yes, please. When we hide our emotions, they show up in other ways. That can lead to complicated grief. There are two kinds of grief complicated and uncomplicated grief. So let's say someone is really fatal and angry and then they have a denial and shock. We know that's like we're just stuck at the point of learning of their demise. We have the depression. The bargaining is the asking why? Why, my loved one? Why this time? You know they were going to have a birthday in just two days. Why? Why you know they were going to have a birthday in just two days. Why? Why? It's the unanswered question.
Speaker 1:But when you, when you start thinking about your emotions and your feelings, it's OK to have them and experience them, but you just don't stay stuck in them. And that's where the impairment can come in. If you hide that, you feel angry and you don't want to tell somebody Like what I just shared with you. And now the masses in terms of God, I feel like you're punishing me, but I know the fact is you're not. Yeah, you see. So I put him in remembrance. I know this is not what it is. I just feel like this and I want to tell you how I feel he can handle that. He can work with that, because you're being open and you're being honest. And sometimes if we don't say that, if we don't get it out because we don't feel in a safe place or amongst safe people where we can say that to, then we start hiding it and it shows up in other areas that cause us to be impaired, whether it's substance usage, other what we call process, addiction, Process addiction.
Speaker 2:So it starts showing up.
Speaker 1:Yes, process addictions gambling, different type of things, pornography, different type of addictions that are not directly related to substance usage. So we call those processed addictions. So we hide our feelings and we mask them and we start secreting other things, because we really feel angry and somebody told us don't be angry at God, so we hide it we hide it.
Speaker 3:That's what happens when we don't have angry at God, so we hide it?
Speaker 2:Oh right, that's what happened when we don't have the full knowledge to speak on something and we just say something and not really processing the words that we're about to deliver to someone that is not in a state of process, right Like they may not be ready and you know they're dealing with quite a bit at that moment. I'm glad that you said that.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know, I I wasn't aware of that as a as a secondary emotion, like we've we've seen where people become hyper-focused on on work.
Speaker 3:Or or the, or, for instance, a parent on the next child, on that, you know, the sibling of the child. Yes, that's a child or the parent that they didn't lose yeah then they focus on the on the other parent.
Speaker 2:We've seen hyperactivity on that. We've definitely seen. When someone has lost a spouse we typically see that they have kind of lost a sense of their identity and purpose, you know, especially if they were doing multiple things in a healthy marriage. We've seen that quite a bit right when they the loss is so profound that the next step is that they have had a significant crisis of faith, right, so it's. It's both of those, it's all of those things that you said there. Oh, wow, like you got.
Speaker 1:It can be a battle. It can really be a battle that someone has to, and that's why you know it's so important having a relationship with God, but also having a relationship with other people, being around other people. Again, I think the trick of the enemy is what we know is to steal, kill and destroy, and so when he gets us to isolate and withdraw, now you're not fellowshipping with other people. I struggle with that. I struggle to come to church every Sunday knowing, you know, my husband and I would sit next to each other, right here, and now I come to church and he's not with me, and so I really went through a season of that where it was just hard to come.
Speaker 1:And sometimes we'll find that it's hard to go to the place where you all used to frequent, whether it be a restaurant or other places where you used to go. It's kind of hard to kind of get back into that because your half is not there with you, right, you know? And so you have to try to get re-acclimated to, like I said, to that new norm without them. And here's the thing it does take time. It takes time. And walking with someone during that journey, checking in with them, you know saying hey, how you doing. Hey, you want to go to lunch? Hey, let's go here, let's go there, and it's okay if they choose not to. But just knowing someone would offer to do something with you can be a great help. Yeah, it can really be a great help.
Speaker 1:That's good Dr.
Speaker 3:Robinson, I'm sorry when you said that it had me think something. I wanted to ask you Because when you had said you want to have that community, that kind of helps you do it right.
Speaker 3:And I was wondering, like, do you want someone that doesn't maybe know your loss or someone that does know your loss? So it had me go down a different rabbit hole as far as, like, let's say, if you're I don't want to say dating, but kind of just seeking out that other companionship again, how do you broach the subject with a new person as far as your loss and how you still grieving it, maybe, maybe grieving it or how to?
Speaker 3:I don't know how I'm trying to say this and make it okay to keep continuing to talk about this person you've lost but, at the same time, continue to learn this new person you're trying to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to say how do you find that balance? That's a good question, babe, that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is a good question. I think pretty much with with, with anything else, you have to use wisdom because obviously, if you're you know, if you're dating someone new, you want to make sure that you have that balance right. That's the thing of knowing when you're healed. Being healed doesn't mean you won't ever think about your loved one again. I have this pact with God. I said, okay, god. So when I go into glory and when I see, I say I'm going to have two husbands up there Because you know, am I going to say hey Jeff, hey Nathaniel, which one you know?
Speaker 1:And so that's just my little, and again that's me being humorous about it, but again that keeps me. It just keeps me laughing, even if I laughed to myself and within myself. You know, because we know, once we get up there, you know we're not in our carnal state, so we're not going to be thinking that we can all be sisters and brothers. But the other thing about it is, you know, finding that balance. Making sure you've done your healing work in terms of the great doesn't mean you're not going to. You know you're going to always have that person, especially if you love that person, going to always have them a part of your heart. But you also this is where you learn God's capacity. So God has a great capacity to love, right, and we know that because he so loved us, right. So so here it is, got two husbands and and maybe, maybe the Lord is leading another husband to find me, right. And so I believe God can still give you the capacity to love someone else, because he's God, he's big like that. Yes, he can still do that. But what is important again is that you do your work. Know that you've gone through that process of healing, because if you, if you're still in angry mode, then you're. It's not going to be as fruitful when you're meeting someone else. You may not even be ready, but you have to know if you're ready to date. You have to know if you're ready to move forward with someone else in a different way, and sometimes God uses you. Know whether it's therapists, whether it's your pastor, whether it's like you guys are in couples. You lead our couples ministry.
Speaker 1:The Bible says there's safety in a multitude of counselors. Counselors doesn't have to always be the licensed ones. You guys are in a role and position of counseling. You counsel people and so, being able to know you know what, am I ready to move ahead with someone else? And so, being open and honest with yourself in terms of where you are, your station at that point in your life, am I ready to share me with someone else? And understanding that you can have the capacity to share you with them even though you have shared with someone else?
Speaker 3:Amen and when you said that it took me someplace else. So, though you're ready, what if you have children from that previous relationship? Then you both have that loss, right? How do you know when your child is ready, or how do you get them to the point of being ready, or how can you help them deal with whatever emotions they have going on from that loss, as well to get to a space, to accept someone new, or you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And that is very, very key and that can only take time. I don't even think there's a cookie cutter answer to that. When you have like, this is where family therapy can come in. When it's time to make that next step. Before you introduce your kids, say to someone new, you know you talk to your kids, just see where they are.
Speaker 1:Sometimes kids are never ready, you know, or may have difficulty getting ready. I'll put it like that we don't never want to say never, but you know sometimes and I have clients that are adult, adult children, not like little kids, but they're adults and they just have not accepted that mom remarried. You know for various reasons that mom remarried. You know for various reasons. And that's why now, when you bring in like the LMFT, which is a, you know, a therapist that deals in family therapy, that's when you help with those types of transitions. You know when you help talk about the person and who they meant to. They will always be. This person isn't coming to take their place because their place can't be taken.
Speaker 1:And this is where you highlight you know the capacity to love is so great because God loves us, so you have to help your kids and help them see that you can learn to like this person, you know. But again, that does take time. It's not something that you can force, because if you try to force it it may not work the way it would if it was just organically. You just have to show love on all fronts and make sure you're not pushing this new person onto your kids either, or onto the whole family unit, because sometimes we see that happening like we're ready but the family may not be ready, you know.
Speaker 1:Now does that mean you don't date, or you don't introduce them, or you don't live life? No, you just have to try to find a way to navigate that, you know, taking into consideration how the kids feel, how other family members feel, you know, and through family therapy you can find that out, because sometimes people may have other reasons why they may not even want to open up to someone else. That's true, that's so true. So they may not be ready to open up for their own personal reasons. May not be that this is not a good person or that they don't like the person. It's just, I like my daddy, and that was my daddy and nobody else is going to be my daddy.
Speaker 1:That's true, and so sometimes they have to work through that Exactly. You know that takes time to work through that.
Speaker 2:Right. I will say this though that you know when you are going through the grieving process and of course you have far more expertise than I do. But some of the things that we often will say to couples that ask us for counsel is we always say you know, give it to God. He's the ultimate counselor, but he also knows grief better than anyone in the grief process because he gave up his only begotten son so
Speaker 2:he knows exactly that feeling. And if you? Stay in constant communication and, just like you said, you know it. You know grief will take you to another level of communication with the Lord you know, he'll give it to you.
Speaker 3:He'll give it to you.
Speaker 2:He'll give it to you and and what I he will, he will, and what I've often told other couples that kind of said this as well too just don't try and force someone, just like what you said. Elder michelle, dr michelle, is that you? Know, sometimes people, because they don't like the feeling of being alone and they're missing that spouse. Right, they will force someone a square a square peg into a circle peg hole right and, and so we don't want you to do that.
Speaker 2:So don't rush it Right. Take the time that you need, um and and God will always provide right he always will provide.
Speaker 1:And actually in the same way of like how you, you, you all deal with couples and married couples. But just think about, even even with couples who have been divorced, and then mom and their dad is introducing a new person, you know, the divorce is over and now someone else is coming in. It's pretty much that same process. Sometimes kids may not be willing, you know, and so it does take time. You have to help them process through that and just you know in a loving way that you're not forcing this other person into their lives, but having that understanding that they're not taking trying to take someone else's place. So that has to be cultivated and that takes time.
Speaker 2:What if the person and you want to come to them, you're the other family member that is recognizing this grief has just gone far past. It's become complicated grief, right, you know they're in that phase. But what if they don't want to see a Christian based counselor? You know what, what type of therapist like would you suggest to them? Or how would you help to cultivate that person to start to see the Lord again? You know when yes, when they've taken themselves away from them?
Speaker 1:And that's a good question as well, because you know that's one of the reasons why I have people who ask me oh well, you have a PhD in Christian counseling, but I went back to get a second master's in clinical mental health counseling because you do have to be licensed in the state. When you have a Christian counseling you don't have to be licensed, but pretty much you're kind of limited to faith-based communities or institutions so you can teach there, but again, the credentialing goes for the state that you're licensed in. And so many people, one of the things I said well, I went back to get the other, not just for degree's sake, but because the world is not all Christian yet and so I need to be able to help the atheists, I need to be able to minister to the agnostic. I don't have to quote chapter verse, but you're going to know I know a little something about Jesus.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 1:Right, so and that, and that's all of us. Right, that's all of us. Because what about the unsaved that still may come into my office out of their hurt and out of their pain? I'm not going to first ask do they know Jesus? That's not going to be my first question. They come to me out of their hurt and out of their pain and somewhere along the way God will open up a door for me to sell Jesus or tell them about a witness, Jesus.
Speaker 1:And so support groups, a lot of hospitals, a lot of behavioral mental health facilities have support groups for those who may not want the faith-based. They may not want the Christian therapist, they may not want the pastor or the you know, or the intercessor, Sometimes talking to someone that you can trust, you know a professional therapist who may not be a Christian therapist Like I said, there are many out there who don't also do Christian therapy. I have people call my office looking for a Christian therapist. They automatically give them to me, you know, because I don't shy down, because I'm a Christian, you know, and so they't shy down, because I'm a Christian, you know. And so they can go to a professional therapist, they can go to someone whom they trust. Like I said, a lot of support groups and individual behavioral health facilities also offer grief therapy. You know, sometimes through their insurance they can seek out behavioral health for grief and they can. They can still find help even if they don't seek a Christian counselor.
Speaker 3:That's so good and I think it's so important, Everything you just said there, Dr Robinson. The fact is, we don't know what we don't know. So a lot of that information just gave somebody, somebody probably doesn't know, so they're just dealing with it internally or in their own space versus realizing they do have these resources, that they can seek out, even, to a certain point, free resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's so important, yes, absolutely a lot of a lot of. I. I have clients who deal with um, you know, um, body imaging issues, a lot of my young girls, you know, still a certain way. And crown counseling uh, I think they're in Crown Point, but there's so many different resources that are available in Illinois as well as in Indiana, and they are free resources support groups, you know, for different things, and so even just trying to network and your insurance company can can oftentimes they know of a lot of resources too, and so I would just invite people to resource, I mean to network, to find those resources.
Speaker 1:I believe God will always, when you are seeking, he will always make sure that you find a way to get to him If it's something that's going to enhance your commitment, your level with him or even just your awareness of God. You know, for the people who don't know Christ, it is his desire that we come to know him, so he's going to put you in the right direction. Amen, whether you know it or not, he's going to put you on the pathway to righteousness that is so nice For his namesake right. He's going to do that for you. And where you, he said if you seek, you will find him, even if you don't even know you seeking him.
Speaker 2:He will find a way to to help you right where you are.
Speaker 2:Amen to that, you know well we do have our audience, we have a very broad audience and we thank God for that. So you know, for someone that is in a different country, or you know, or in a different state, you know, would you mind giving us maybe three practical steps for recentering or reconnecting with one's faith after this period of doubt or anger? If you can give them, like just if you can give them your top three that maybe they can do in their hometown, home country, in order to start bringing themselves?
Speaker 3:full center.
Speaker 2:Yeah, full center, healing God's way.
Speaker 1:Healing definitely takes place the more we're open and honest about where we are. Just flat out, god. This is where I am. You know, this is how I feel. You know, even with those that don't know Jesus talk and feel certain kinds of ways, and so being able to just be open and honest with where you're at ways and so being able to just be open and honest with where you're at and, again, not isolating, so that you can be able to talk to someone, someone can steer you where you need to go, someone can help, put you on on a pathway that can provide some type of assistance or support for you. And, again, that's why it's so important.
Speaker 1:It's so important to still connect with people and not again withdraw and isolate, and be able to get on the pathway. So being able to seek resources wherever you are in your community, whether it's faith based or not. We have a lot of community resources and people who sponsor people just to get support and help. So being able to reach out and to find someone that can help you. You know, understand who. You know you got to understand what is happening. What do I need to do? Getting involved in grief work, sometimes social support group, and then those of us who have been affected and impacted by grief, reaching out, being a helper being someone to help others process their grief.
Speaker 1:You know so it's like you know me. I went to school for court reporting. Everybody knows me. No, I was a court reporter for like over 20 something years. One rotator cuff, the doctor says I hope you know how to do something else. And so counseling was it. My husband would say you counseled, let's just do that. I said really. And so being able to help someone else because now I know the significance of being in therapy, going through that grief, going through the depression and the anxiety, because not only is it the grief process but it's still those other component parts that go along with that. If you've gone through it, being able to help and support others in different states and different communities, to go through it being an advocate, help someone else, just like you've been helped.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 1:Support someone else in your church. Being a part I was a part of the lay counseling ministry. I think after COVID hit, we kind of fizzled a little bit. Kind of fizzled a little bit. But being able to do the work within wherever you fit, wherever you are, whether it's on the job, I think there's always a door that can be open for you to show, to let God's light shine through you, especially if you've been through something. If you've been through something, it's for you, but it's also for someone else too. Amen, yes, I wholeheartedly agree.
Speaker 2:That was powerful in every possible aspect, and I know if I were listening on the other side though I'm listening on the inside of this podcast I would want to know, if I'm in this local community, how I could reach out to you, how could I, maybe if we wanted to get services from you or become one of your patients? Could you please share with us how they could reach out to you and what ways they could? And even if they are locally or if they're not, is there possibilities if they're not?
Speaker 3:Telehealth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you have any telehealth services?
Speaker 1:yes, actually actually telehealth. I work for a company called grow therapycom and you can look me up on grow therapycom and you can just, you know, look for dr michelle robinson and um, they'll ask you in terms of what area you want, but if you put my name in then everything will come up and so that that company is exclusively through telehealth and so it's virtual and I see clients in the evening on that side and sometimes during the day, but I also work for clients who want to do face to face. I work at a company, mid America Psychological and Counseling Services in Munster Indiana. It's right near the Red Lobster in Munster Indiana.
Speaker 1:So I see clients face-to-face as well as virtual, through Mid America, as well as growth therapy.
Speaker 2:Amen. So are there any other languages that you? Have to ask Because you know they may reach out, and so we'll tell them. Type you a message and put it through Google. Translate and we'll see what can happen work on too.
Speaker 1:I want to learn Spanish, so, but but definitely with all of the, the technology, with all of the, you know ways that people can communicate. Someone can steer you to what you need. I just, I just believe that someone can steer you to the services and to the help that you need. Sometimes we just have to open it up and ask somebody. We just have to say this and you never know someone. You know, you can just be over talking and somebody hears you and say, hey, you know what, I know that, I know that, but you just have to again. I just believe God's got a way to get to you what you need. Another resource is Psychology Today.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Psychology Today is a resource where all clinicians are listed, in that it's like a database for therapists throughout. If you live in Canada, if you live in Germany, we are everywhere, and so you just go online Psychology Today and you put in whatever area that you're from, city and state, and you can find a list of therapists in your area right near you that's a big database for for clinicians and that's where we're listed in psychology today all right.
Speaker 2:So now we have the international connection too look at god you cannot say you don't have the answers with that. So well, I just want to tell you thank you so much. Elder dr michelle robinson, I have to say both because you have multiple titles but we are so grateful that you joined us on the podcast today and, as we're concluding out, we think she did tell us the whole truth, right and nothing.
Speaker 2:And nothing but the truth. Right, it's so good, so well. We will say this once again to you, dr Robinson, thank you so much for telling us the truth.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for telling us the whole truth.
Speaker 2:And thank you for letting us tell you, and you to tell us, nothing but the truth.
Speaker 3:So help me.
Speaker 2:God. Thank you, dr Robinson, we love you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, we love you too.