Creative Spirits Unleashed
Creative Spirits Unleashed
#93: Traveling with Bernie Harberts
My guest for this episode is Bernie Harberts. We covered so much ground in this podcast, much like Bernie has done for much of his life. When I say covering ground, that’s for real. Bernie has taken several cross country trips with his mules over the years, covering over 10,000 miles and 1,000 nights.
In our conversation, he offers his hard-earned wisdom on approaching life on the road, life with horses and mules, and living a full and meaningful life in general.
One of the themes that has helped him take to the road is giving up perfection and learning to live with vulnerability. We explored this and many of the themes that have informed his journeys.
Here’s what Bernie has to say about himself:
Author and Long Rider Bernie Harberts is the subject of the Emmy award-winning PBS North Carolina program “The Mule Rider” and the author of “Two Mules to Triumph”, about his 7-month mule voyage from North Carolina to Idaho. Even though he has traveled both ways across the United States and Newfoundland by mule, he still can’t keep his mule Cracker from occasionally bolting.
Bernie lives in a small cabin in western North Carolina with his wife Julia, two border collies, three mules, two ponies and eight thousand wild-caught honey bees. When he’s not writing or rambling, he enjoys bee lining, planting ginseng and 23-minute naps.
More about Bernie’s books, films and journeys at RiverEarth.com.
Lynn, Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life and now here's your host. Lynn Carnes,
Lynn:Welcome to the Creative Spirits Unleash Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Bernie Harberts, we covered so much ground in this podcast, much like Bernie has done for much of his life. When I say covering ground, that's for real, Bernie has taken several cross country trips with his mules over the years, covering over 10,000 miles and 1000 nights. That's a lot of coverage in our conversation, he offers his hard earned wisdom on approaching life on the road, life with horses and mules, and living a full and meaningful life in general, one of the themes that has helped him take to the road is giving up perfection and learning to live with vulnerability. We explored this and many other themes that have informed his journeys over his travels he now here's what Bernie has to say about himself. Author and long writer. Bernie harberts is the subject of the Emmy award winning PBS North Carolina program, the mule writer and the author of two mules to triumph about his seven month mule voyage from North Carolina to Idaho. Even though he has traveled both ways across the United States and Newfoundland by his mule, he still can't keep his mule cracker from occasionally bolting. Bernie lives in a small cabin in western North Carolina with his wife Julia, two Border Collies, three mules, two ponies and 8000 wild caught honey bees. When he's not riding or rambling, he enjoys bee lining, planting ginseng and 23 minute naps. More about Bernie's books, films and journeys are at River earth.com so I really hope you enjoy this podcast as much as I did with Bernie harberts. Bernie harberts, welcome to the creative spirits, unleash podcast.
Unknown:Thank you so much. Great to be here. I'm so
Lynn:I'm so happy that we were able to make this finally work. There's been some scheduling stuff and so forth. And what I was thinking, it just strikes me to start is, as we as I was looking at something you're doing on YouTube with getting boots together for mules, you talked about how much riding you have done, and I would love for you to just do a brief flyover, or maybe walk over of all the trips you have taken and who you've taken them with, because you've taken some long riding trips.
Unknown:Yeah, so this the long distance riding, and by that, I mean hundreds and 1000s miles that days and months, right? Days and months and into the years. Sometimes that's what really drives me, and something I really feel strongly about sharing with others, because I've been able to help other people get out on their own long ride or walk or bicycle or business journey. And so the the trips, in a nutshell, were traveling. My first long voyage was from oriental North Carolina in San Diego. That was 13 months with a mule named Woody and 14 two and a pony mate named Maggie, who was 13 hands, Little Pony, like little black and white pony with a blue eye and a crooked foot that money walked across the map with me. Wow. He ended up in such good shape. People wanted to buy the foal when she didn't. They thought she was pregnant. It's a testament to the generosity of America. That's tip one. The next trip was with a mule named Polly, traveling from Canada to Mexico in a wagon looking for an ancient seed across the Great Plains. That was 400 days. I've never used a chase vehicle or support crew in any of my trips. I filmed that whole journey, which became the lost the expedition. I wrote two books about the journey before planet Pacific. One was called too proud, dried a cow, grown up, book and Woody and Maggie walk across America. And then the third voyage was across Newfoundland looking for the for some photos on a record cover, I found a record album. I found at Goodwill. Tiny wagon went to Luke for half a year looking for the photos on this wagon. After that, I got married 51 and I took off on my next voyage to go see Julia, my wife's brother. I live in western North Carolina. We live in West. North Carolina. He lives in Haiti, Hailey, Idaho, Sun Valley. Saddled up brick and cracker my mules. Brick was very young, probably too young. We'll get into this a little bit later. Mistakes I made, things I learned that was seven months, 2300 miles. Wrote a book called Two Mules to triumph, which has just come out right now. And then Julie and I to prove this, this can actually be done with a spouse. We took an incredible one of my favorite trips with mules, a lot of borrowed year, like two of the three mules we took on this trip was borrowed to talk about. Just don't let imperfection stop. Left here in western North Carolina, outside of the north and road to Virginia and back. So that's well over 10,000 long distance miles, over 1000 nights no support vehicle, and it's done barefoot or with hoof boots. And really supported by the generosity of Americans that we meet total strangers and we'll get into this like we're in a really divided country, a very fearful country, but it is good to know that you can still walk up to some strange door, and literally knock on it, like, hello, knock, knock, knock, I'm Bernie Harper, and they'll let you stay. It helps to have a mule. Don't do this in the backpack. Yeah,
Lynn:because you are I think that probably is very much true. Yeah,
Unknown:it's possible. Wow.
Lynn:10,000 miles and 1000 nights, and I, you know, I read two mules to triumph. Could not put it down, because you have this amazing way to bring us on the trip with you. And something you just said really struck me, because what when you were out there asking each night for a place to stop and water your mules and camp and sort of be in the care of the people, whoever you were stopping with along the way, you had this way of eliciting their generosity, not 100% of the people, and not 100% of the time, but mostly, you elicited such a spirit of generosity. And I'm curious what that was like, because I think my fearful spirit would be every day starting to look for a place to stop by noon, because I'd be afraid to find something. You know,
Unknown:I thought a lot about this, and what, what I kind of boil it down to, is vulnerability. So I'm going to offend all the big God, all the people have these big RVs, the with all these crazy names I write about in the book, the Prowler, the lurker, like with all these aggressive names, you know, okay, there's some Winnebagos in there. But when you show up with everything you need, like you're you're kind of an impenetrable island in some way. You can bounce from RV site to campground, which is fine. I've done it myself. But when you show up vulnerable, stripped down, you have two mules, and it's just you. You have nothing to hide behind, and you are vulnerable and you're imperfect. People see that. You know your gears is a bit worn, but your animals are in good shape, and it is just incredible how people drop their guard, because we're incredibly guarded country. Mm, hmm. And you'll see and think a little bit like, you know, imagine I'm standing at your front door, or, what are your listeners front door? And there's a guy that Mueller pony, and you think a moment like and then you have a closer look. And the the vast majority of time, and this is wild, people will say, Yeah, I think we got a place for you, yeah. And often it starts, it's very much like in our personal relationships. It's fascinating. So imagine I'm standing at your front porch, and let's say you've got a big yard with the past child back. What what you and a lot of people will say, well, they'll say, Well, you know, let me talk to my my, my husband, wife, whatever, see if they feel cool with it. And you just wait, just wait, just wait. And they'll come back and they'll say, you know, I got a place, or we have a place. There's a piece of pasture out behind the house, kind of far away from the house. You'd be okay. And see, it's just like with a relationship. Sometimes we start far away. We don't need to just crawl in and become you know, intimate with people, just yeah, just be there. Have a quiet presence. And then as people get to know you, they see your camp, they really open up, they thaw out, invite you to supper, perhaps. And it's an incredibly cathartic and I think therapeutic thing for both parties. So that's kind of how it works. It's a lot more than camping with a mural. It's much deeper than that. And I've had people tell me, like, wow, we didn't know when he showed up, and by the next morning, they're like, Oh, wonderful. I just really kind of renewed our faith. It's okay. Doesn't always work out that way. This is the Disney version.
Lynn:Well, that, I mean, that was the thing that was evident to me when I watched the the Lost Sea expedition on Amazon, as well as reading your book, because it didn't always work that way, but one of the things that you seem to do really well is not let ideological differences become a wall. And you know, many times you were with people who you might not have agreed with, you know, because, like, for example, on the on the basis of religion, or on the basis of, like, I remember you talk, you had that picture in your book of the catfish. It was kind of ironic, the dead catfish that was long as your leg hanging off the sign that said, high fat, high high speed internet. And there was something really like, it was like, twisted my brain, because I was like, here we are. You know, like nothing wrong with eating food from nature. We're allowed to do that, but to hang it on a sign, like with pride. It was just something about that, and yet you saw those things, and you accepted them, along with people's hospitality, like you accepted the differences. And I think that's something we've all I think there's a lost art in that as well,
Unknown:you know, but it's kind of a two part thing. I think first of all, the acceptance is really important. In my first book, too proud to ride a cow, this is my first big, long trip, I had a really hard time accepting people's generosity. Let's take the example of money. Like people would want to give me money. I was like, no, no, no. I don't need I don't need it, but, but, like, I'll stay at your at your place so I can, you know, help you chores, but I won't take the money. And I found that was really, actually kind of, it was hurting people, because there have been, on the flip side, there have been people who who've traveled on bikes. If I see somebody on a bike traveling, I'll usually stop and chat and maybe give them a couple bucks, because I've been on the other side of that, and I know just how good it feels to give, but for someone to give, you have to be a graceful receiver that makes sense, And you have to learn to accept and accepting hospitality was easy for me, but accepting money really hard, really hard, and because I thought, well, I got enough to get through, you know, today or up the road, maybe these people don't. And you know, there were people that had, you know, less money than I did that were incredibly generous and that that took a while to digest, that, you know, just be grateful and pass it on. That's why I took, like, dollar bills in the shirts I bring them off, just bring them to Goodwill. Wow.
Lynn:They got their little surprise. Yeah,
Unknown:so yeah, that's as far as the generosity and the the bigger discussion, and we can get into this as much as we want, is the difference in this country, a beloved country, is incredibly split along ideological line politically and also along lines of religion. Yeah, and one of the really cathartic trips, things about this trip was it was the first time I was able to share my views with people, if they ask, stand behind them, but but really accept them and actually, really feel accepted. And this is incredibly important for me. And what I mean by that is, I guess I should establish a baseline and in fact, you know, came out in the book about my spiritual beliefs. I grew up in a Presbyterian Church. Went through all the Christian you know, training in school, Miss night, bless her, she would come into mulberry elementary school, and she would reenact, like all these. Things from the Bible. And as kids, we couldn't wait till we got to the plagues. You know, people had, you know, frogs jumping around. It was great. But this is really wired into my brain, this this spiritual way of seeing things as it is, into many, many, many, many people in the state. I took me into my 50s to finally, and I'm even just taking a deep breath here, say, Okay, I'm not, I don't believe in this, this god that many, many people in the States believe many, many people in the world. I simply don't. I just don't see that. I don't understand that. It took me until well into my 50s for me to be able to tell someone, you know, I'm not a Christian. I I believe in generosity. I believe in many of the tenants from the Bible. Be generous, you know, be kind, you know, don't steal, don't cheat, don't do I believe in all that. I don't believe in this larger guy with a vehicle. So it was amazing to me on this trip that, first of all, people didn't ask about that. They they assumed I was, you know, religious. But they really didn't get into the politics or the religion, which I I found fascinating that they gave me the space for that, because if you tune in to the social media or the news, I damn well guarantee you politics are going to be in it. I got no fear of stirring that pot. So that was the first beautiful thing. And the second thing that just gobsmacked me was when I finally spoke with people who were it's on stay on religious basis, on the other side of the spectrum, like they're Christian or really Evangelical, fundamental Christians. And I'm not. I was finally, for the first time in my life, able to have these really beautiful discussions. There was a guy named odd curry in Illinois, and I remember having this beautiful discussion on why I didn't believe in the same God he did, and he was so accepting. And I thought, wow, you know, I've been building this other side up as these rabid, you know, Hellfire brimstone, you know, smite thee in the Old Testament way people. And it was like, if we just open up project solidity. And yet flexibility make that room for that discussion. Wow, that heals. I'm getting goosebumps because I had heels.
Lynn:I am too
Unknown:both sides, and that's what we need, and that gave gobs this get I can just feel the shivers going up my neck, and I'm sorry for rattling on, but I feel this is so important that insight, and I hope this helps people. You know, your listeners, or you, I will speak directly to you as a listener out there if you listen to this hate comfort in this because this experience, I'm just thinking of speaking with Todd liberty, Illinois, and then we'll get back to the horse a little bit. That gave me the reassurance that I could reach across the divide. And as recently as last Sunday, Julie and I had guests that were probably on the opposite spectrum. But you know, if you can remember very evangelical background upbringing that gave me the my experience on my trip, what I learned and I had in the book gave me the encouragement to start speaking with her, and pretty soon we had discussion about her really conservative evangelical upbringing, and I was able to say, wow, you know, I do not believe in a god, or that God really any God, and I consider myself a possibility, I told him, but we had this wonderful discussion that just enriched everything. Instead of not talking about, yeah, that came out of this trip, and that was a absolutely precious and hugely changing, you know, part of that, how it changed my life,
Lynn:you know, that's so beautiful, because I feel like we. We watch each other through this lens of social media, which is like looking at the world through fun house mirrors everything's the thing. It's it is a reflection of what's there, but it's very distorted, and what you got was a much more pure experience of what the hearts of people are really about and that makes me it gives me a lot of hope for our country and for us as a as a human race, to hear that we can still be generous and accepting. And, you know, I know people who can't even accept a compliment, much less money, right? And, and, and the thing is, like you said, if you are giving and somebody won't accept it, you've blocked them from their life force, because giving is part of our life force. And, and how we work together is that we're vulnerable, right? You know, we have there's a given a take, humans are no humans are designed to live alone with these, you know, imaginary walls, be it social media walls, or those RV or something like that. You know, walk with our own walls. So I got chills as you told your story, because it gave me a ton of hope. And you know where I've come down on the presence or issue of of God or the greater being, or whatever is it, whatever it is it is, yeah, it's a fascinating whatever it is it is, and and belief does not, especially a God that almost anybody wants you To believe in cannot be created by virtue of our belief that God is greater than anything that we could believe into being as mere humans. So whatever it is doesn't it's not my job to figure out what it is. It's my job to listen not to people, but to whatever way that type of God might speak. Yeah. And
Unknown:Rick Rubin, who I love. He's a producer. I love Rick Rubin. Amazingly, it's funny. I'm plugging Rick Rubin's book when I should be plugging mine two meals to try. But Rick he refers to, you know, source, you know the source. This, this stuff from the outside that comes in. We need to open ourselves up. It's a, you know, these receivers that we have, and it's a very personal thing. What source manifests itself to the Christian God, to one person might manifest itself as Muhammad or Buddha or the purple spaghetti monster to someone else, or it could be a then state, which is more, I'm more of this stuff. It's more connected to everything person. That's what source is like to me. But we can't dictate that each other. And I think what, what really helped me was taking this trip to get back to this vulnerability thing, because we put up so many defenses, wall budgets, perfection. Yes,
Lynn:perfection, perfection. Just,
Unknown:you know, there's time for perfection. When I'm flying in a plane, perfection. I like perfection is good. Then I want to perfection. But, you know, we can be too perfect. And you know, I've been listening to to your, your audio book is reading about reading it this, this your earlier corporate days where you really trying to, you know, oh yeah, be the good corporate control things and stuff. Well, there's a place for that, I guess, not really in my life anymore, but let that go, fine, wow. That introduces perfections, and then you get cracks in your life. And I think the light comes in through those cracks. Yes, it does. You just don't want to have too many to break your life apart or your relationship The Balancing Act, which it's
Lynn:a balancing act well, and as a pilot, it's interesting even, even with flying, I flew in my early 20s and took flying lessons and got all the way to the license point, and then stopped because I wasn't going to be able to stay current. And then I waited for almost 40 years and went back to flying, but with a whole new mindset, because I had been through this journey of like I'm talking about in my book, of of trying to let go of perfection, and what I realized is, in flying, you're really not perfect. Perfect, but you are operating within the bounds of the laws of flight, if you will. And as long as you can fly the airplane, as long as you keep flying that airplane, you have a really good chance of putting it on the ground if something goes wrong. And we go up there and practice things going wrong, you know, they pull the power and say, land the plane, and, you know, make you stall and almost go into a spin and all of those things. And if you're stuck in perfection, when that the sensations of the the plane rolling over, like it's going to spin, or buffeting in the wind, or getting caught, you know, little bit floating off the runway or whatever, if you're if you're so caught in perfection, that that your body can't take those bubbles, that's when you lose it. And, and so what I began to realize is the the more we're looking for how to recover from those baubles, the better you are. And, and there's any premise in my book, it's that actually you want as much imperfection as you can get, because that's actually how you grow. Like the best pilots are the ones who've seen a lot of things go wrong and landed that plane
Unknown:anyway. And it's a very fine line. It's a very
Lynn:you don't want to be too far, because you got to crash right. And the line
Unknown:is different for everyone, the line is different for everyone. So and I, I'm probably a little bit, you know, far out on one side of the spectrum. Let's just say, as far as horse horseback riding, I was really fortunate. I started young. I rode dressage in Switzerland with proud Anthony, and I rode the steeplechase jockey, and did pony club in Texas, in Salem done a lot of early riding, good reflexes, and so I feel comfortable taking these long, long trips, as imperfect as they are, with all the things go wrong, and yet someone else, their thing might be, you know, Warwick Schiller's 50 foot trail rock, you know, but you but that's, that's getting out, and that's, that's enough, but you've got to get out. You've got to get out. And I think that's one of the things that I gotta say sometimes it frustrates me, but I'm getting it better, better, and I'm really trying to understand how there's so many people, there's so much fear right now in the in our country, there's always been fear. This manifests itself differently, whether there's a war on, or there's a you know, or we're in the present, but it always it's something I really would like to know more about and help people out, is people who are afraid to ride their horses. I see that as such a big issue. And this is where my wife, Julia, Julie Carpenter, with a two step wise has really helped me see it from her saw where she's much more about whereas I'd be like, well, you can get through this. You can get through a lot. I'm telling myself, personally, as I write about in the book, but by the end of the book, I'm like, that probably wasn't the way to do it. I would do things differently in the sense of taking our imperfections and just spending a little more time, you know, becoming present, learning to read the horse or the airplane or the situation, and approaching it with that steady mind And and getting a feel for the horse, for example, that we're going to get on that I think is, is a really a good gateway to moving ahead through these fields, because it's tough, you know? Yeah, my big thing is, if there's one thing I would like to tell people, tell whoever's listening is like, if you ride a horse, I would love you just a gallon horse. Yeah. And if you are afraid of riding, or there's intention in that, I wish you everything so all the tools you need to get get by that. Or if you know your personal life, business relationship, get out there. Yeah, feeling of that out
Lynn:Yeah. Fear. Fear is such an interesting thing because it I feel like it's an essential nutrient of life, because it is what keeps us alive, is to not go jump off buildings or things that we have no business doing but but I think it if we can learn to use it as something that informs us rather than controls us. And I got to give your wife a shout out, Julia, Julia carpenter of the two step technique, you know, she works with. Over with us at rain rescue, and just this week, I watched her. She she's doing this without being having a demonstration, but I we walked out of having worked with a couple of horses, and she's over with our babies in the pasture, and she has, she's such a master of getting present that she had all the babies laying down sleeping next to her, like she just takes them, like she's so present. And I always love when she comes, because I feel like I get a little bit more present every time I am taught by her or work with her. And that's one side of the tightrope is just like create amazing safety bubble, you know, for the horses to say you are okay, and then on the other side, there's this other side. And this is something Stevie Delahunt, and I've talked about before, she does endurance riding, takes the horses out long rides, is there's also these moments. And this is, like, you said, it's a fine line where it's like, yeah, I know you're afraid, and we're still going to walk across that bridge, or we're still going to run up that or whatever, and I've been out with her doing that, and the horses, so appreciate having somebody there to, like, be with them as they get tested a little bit. You know, it's, it's like, two sides of the same coin. When did
Unknown:Yeah? And, you know, it's a great question. So let's go to the bridge example, because this is a great learning thing that I came out of the trip with. So it's this balance between, let's say old school is like, rah, rah. Let's say with horses. Old school kick on. Complete horse. Yeah, complete horse. You know, you got your whip, your spur, if you're riding, you know, cross country, you got your double bridge and you just die, whereas maybe the other side would be what I imagine, like a Zen master would be working with a horse, maybe just or Julia just going up, getting present. And the horses, you know, they just bliss out and lie down, which is amazing. But if you're a guy or a woman trying to ride across America, it's wonderful if your horses are as zenned out in the place was you all, but I need to get, you know, to a place to stay tonight.
Lynn:Yeah, and you, you came up on some bridges
Unknown:like, oh man, there's this one bridge. I remember it so well that it illustrates this point perfectly. It was outside of Science Hill, Kentucky. So I get to this bridge. I've been there a lot of bridges between here and Idaho, I think California. So I'd be getting across, you know, I'd gone across, you know, four lane bridges, fine, but I get to this particular bridge, it has got its expanded metal. So what that means is, when you walk out on it, you look right down through the slats at the creek, and it's like, oh, wow, look at those minnows down there, right under my feet. Well, for us, that's a novelty. For a mule, we can terrify
Lynn:well, and for Lynn, who doesn't like
Unknown:heights, so imagine, so you're looking down at these fish, and you're like, it's getting dark. I gotta get gotta move on. Because, actually, some people told me I could spend the night with him. I take cracker my my main sound of me up at the bridge. He's like, ain't no way. Digs his feet in. You know, I lead him up. He won't come close. I try with brick. I think maybe I can use her bait. She's like, No, no. Crack is not doing it. I'm not
Lynn:doing I don't like a fish
Unknown:either. Oh, like they took one look, stop, you know, just huge and thick as buckets. And so this is where I'm not proud of this. But what I did, but I did it, and this illustrates the gut through it thing I took the picket, which is like a 30 foot rope that I tied about at night with so they could graze, so they could eat well, and they did. It. Worked great. I took the picket, one in, and I tied it to the about 10 feet out, maybe 15 feet out, into the bridge, tied into the middle of the bridge. Ran listeners, I apologize for this, but it happened, so this is pretty tough. So I ran the rope through the halter, back through that, in effect, the ring the bridge, and made a kind of a, you know, in effect, a pulley system, which is like, you can do it. It will work like it's the old school way of getting a horse into a trailer. I've done it. I've done a lot of things that I'm not proud of now, and I wouldn't do again, some of mine. But in this case, it was like cracker. We got to go. So once he's hooked up like this, he couldn't step back. Backwards. So I would clamp my hands on the rope, and he would get up to the base of the bridge. He could pull back, but I had the leverage to hold him. And eventually he put one foot on the bridge, another foot, and then took this huge leap right onto the bridge, and like scrambled around, he was terrified, and then he kind of settled down, undid this spaghetti or ropes that led him across the bridge, to cut the story short, Rick would not go across. I ended up having to lead her through the little creek. Well, that is not the kind of horse person I want to be. I don't. It's not, and yet in that particular moment, it's what we needed to do to get up the road and keep moving. Yeah, and it worked. And one of the things I had to do this less and less as I went, because I grew my bond with my mules on the road, because I didn't rely purely on that kind of a ham fisted mechanical approach to get forward. But what I did notice is by at the end of my trip, especially brick, who was the pack mu, who's actually our best rider. Now, it was a bit of a divide between her and me, where she just she felt kind of pissed off. And I thought, okay, you know, she's kind of packed off with me for maybe pushing a little too much on this trip, I started kind of rethinking all of this, and then Julia with a two step way, really getting it's kind of a two, a two step system of first being absolutely in the present, which you've seen, and then seeing that there's a there's a case of a Horse. There's a horse behind those two eyes and that body looking at you like, looking for cues. It's, it's almost like an an Alzheimer person, who you write off as just some, you know, diuretic, vomiting, babbling person. There's a human person. My mom was in there. That's what I dealt with. And so it really made me rethink and deepen my approach with with horses and mules, to the point where I thought right about this at the end of the book, it would be fascinating to go back to that bridge with brick and crafts, the one that we had our big blow up over and say, right this time, we're not going to do it, by the way, I do the things. I'm just going to get very present. I'm going to just acknowledge that, that you're afraid now, because last time, you were scared and I pushed you through it, and this time, I'm going to acknowledge that. I'm just going to wait. I'm gonna wait. I waited an hour throughout and then maybe nothing happened. I'd say, right, let's go to camp here. Someone come talk with me. I'd interview we talk about life in Kentucky and science field, and just feel what that approach would be to really listen to brick and cracker and help them through that across that bridge. It's a fascinating thought experiment. I haven't taken it that far, but I've really it's really changed the way I interact with them now. Made the difference from seeing when she tipped her nose a little bit away from me since not reach around as I was taught, as many of my generation were taught, I'm 57 was to reach around, grab that nose, pull it toward us, right, take it in the altar. I don't do that now. I just wait. Make me look awake. Get present. It's beautiful. Brick has really coming. It's what, yeah, that's the kind of that was one of my starting spiritual voids, the the equine voids, and it took five years after the trip to distance. It's pretty cool. Well, you know, I
Lynn:feel like, in a nutshell, you have, you have described the journey of a number of horse people who were taught one way and were not taught that really, that there was a horse in there, that it was just get it done. Yeah. And you've also described a lot of the people I work with in the corporate world who are charged with getting people from here to there, especially when they don't want to, yes, crossing virtual bridges of going from this system to that system. And you know, when I the premise of dancing the tightrope came from my days in corporate where. Where I would see leaders do what you described, which is, we're getting across the bridge, period, paragraph, I'm yanking you if I have to, and that creates a tremendous amount of resentment, yes. And then the other kind of leader, which says, Oh, you don't have to, I'm just going to leave you on this side of the bridge. Or if we have to get across, I'm going to pick up the imagine the human trying to pick up the mule across their back, like you would a dog, and I'll just carry you across because you're too scared. And both leaders end up getting crushed. One gets crushed by the burden they put on themselves because they're not requiring anything of anybody, and one gets crushed by the burden of the resentments that are coming down on them. And the same can happen with horses, because if you don't ask anything of a horse, they can become very dangerous, you know, so So dancing that tightrope is that beautiful thing of I get it. This is tough, and I still need you to cross that bridge right, and I count on you, and then I'll work with you at your pace and in your way to get you across. That's the beautiful balance of the work, because, you know, y'all would have otherwise if you didn't somehow get those horses across that bridge, or those mules across that bridge, you're turning around and going back to Lenore,
Unknown:yeah, yeah. I mean, that would be And again, there are different ways of looking at that. You could either say, oh, that's the other trip, or you could, and I would, and I throw this out there. Let's say there's someone that didn't maybe think the way I did, and but was maybe a little bit more of a lateral thinker, thinker, or thought like I did, because I was so focused on getting the mules across the bridge, and that in that across that bridge, there are many right across that bridge. Half an hour later, I thought, Damn, you know, I could have either led them through the creek or I could have gotten a horse trailer. You know. Stop
Lynn:absolutely, absolutely lateral thinking. It doesn't mean it has to be this way. Oh,
Unknown:and I was in my lateral thinking, and I write about this in the book, I was like, Okay, this may have been right or wrong. I said, Okay, if I the creek that this bridge was over was a foot deep. Cracker and bricks front legs that I've measured are 32 inches. They could have gotten through without barely getting their knees wet. Yeah. And my thinking was, well, if I, if I let them know that they can get around this obstacle. They're not going to go across the next bridge. Well, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe you've made such a debacle and scared the crap out of the fat bridge. They're not going to go across any bridges, whereas they used to go across cement bridges. So it's a really personal thing. It's a trade off. And the lateral thinking is vital. It's
Lynn:vital. And you just touched on. The reason that the old way is such a detriment is if your identity gets caught in I've got to get these horses, these mules, across this bridge, or that means something horrible happens to me. I'm not a good person. I'll never get them across another bridge. They're they're not respecting me, whatever of that nonsense, yeah, it's in the middle of it. That's your Achilles heel, yeah, and it's happening in my example, on both sides. I'm going to either force you, because if I can't get you to do it, there's something wrong with me, or I'm going to carry you, because that makes me a good person, because I'm helping so much. And neither of those are actually useful thoughts. We want to help them, help themselves, to do this thing.
Unknown:And I think many, many people are kind of you to one side or the other. You know, Julia talks about, you know, in her horse work, you know, are you a beer or are you a steer? You know, are you that present person, or do you really see the horse in there? And we just need to kind of make those corrections to, you know, kind of centers ideally, I think between those and I come more from that hard ass. My mom was Swiss. We spoke Swiss, and her at home, my writing teacher, Frau Ernie, she's like she drilled me in German. In a part of Switzerland speaks Swiss. So I'm like, I'm trotting around. The horse's name was Sam, and this, this is in Bern. And yet I lived there, and it's the Swiss speaking part of burn. And yet, when I went in that writing school, we spoke German. And. Posting shot was like writing and walk was schnit and they were stood up and come up and life threatened, and it was this just grinding thing, which I kind of grew up with. But at this point in my life, as you say, I'm really looking at the other spectrum of it. Yeah, it's a it's a whole new, wonderful voyage that I would encourage everyone to really look at, because maybe someone else is much more on the well, the insightful side of it, but has trouble sometimes just kicking on, as they say, gutting it, helping
Lynn:too much. Yeah, it's, you know, sometimes we help people for the wrong reasons and we disable them, yeah, from making choices that they need to make for themselves. Yeah. So it is. It's so fascinating because, like you said, it's a balancing act. And the other piece that I want to pull out, though, for everyone listening, is the forgiveness side, because we've all made mistakes. Yeah, and we did the best we could given the circumstances within our level of of awareness and knowledge at that time. And it's something that's big out there right now, because there's an unforgiving thread going in the horse world about, if you've ever been heavy handed with a horse, you're almost like permanently canceled. And we've just recently had a vet who killed himself because he got caught on video trying to work with a feral horse. And I'm not going to argue the merits of that case. What I would say is there were very unforgiving things said about him, and he took his own life, right and and there's something off about that too, especially the the slathering of guilt over the heavy handedness, as opposed to what I really hear in the way you speak, is a forgiveness of a of an awareness of an of a joyfulness of finding the other side while at the same time recognizing you did the best you could at the time. Yeah, you know, that came through in your book, too. And I found that so refreshing,
Unknown:you know. And I can't speak for the vet, because my trip and my actions were very much a personal in the private realm. But what I really didn't want to do was just kind of masquerade all that, and had this little Disney five version of the trip. I really wanted to make people feel what it was like to take this trip right to the point of what it is like to ride a saddle like, what is it like for a man to ride a saddle? You know, what do your parts do? Can't speak for a woman, but like that, yeah, and I, but I also part of that was sharing some of the things I was just not proud of. And I'll go back to this issue with cracker, where I, you know, used a rope to get him across the bridge, not a proud moment. I left it in there, though, just to let people know this was really imperfect, and I really regretted it. I regretted I regretted doing that, and I think where the forgiveness is, because I can't speak to the public realm. It came through my mule brick. Yeah, fascinating. My mule cracker. He is just his head is just as big as a log, and he's broken two pairs of my sunglasses by walking right into the back of me when I stop. He's got, not great. You know, situation awareness is not his thing. He doesn't have life. No
Lynn:collision avoidance.
Unknown:He will flatten you, and he's done it. He rung my bell last week, and Julie heard me and my and his skull make contact. She was like, wow. So he's a block, but there's a, there's a being in there, and I really respect that Rick. What I found with brick was as I really started seeing her in there as a, you know, in effect, let's say, as another person. And she started tipping her nose toward me because, because she felt, you know, seeing I wasn't just rushing up on her. I felt this tension between us just really dissolve, and we can call this forgiveness, which I really felt that a neuroscientist might say that. Was a rewiring of neural networks. That's fine, too, but it was definitely a better place. And the fascinating thing was, through seeing her, and really, you know, being present, that's when I was finally able to kind of forgive myself for some of the stuff that I did, like, you know, forcing an effect cracker to step onto that bridge. So it was through an animal that I came to that forgiving myself. So you were talking about forgiveness here. I think forgive, forgiveness in the public eye is a that's a whole different thing. And I think it's something like every politician wants to know how to do that, and it's brutal. It's brutal in this age of social media. You mentioned this the vet, I guess, with his with his stance, or with his issues. That is, that is, unfortunately, a, perhaps a curse of our time with all this super awareness of everything that's going on, Good the Bad people's history get all mixed in well intended things that were maybe a little forceful, get go sideways. I'm not familiar enough with that situation to comment on it, but it's a real challenge of our time. It really is. It really is. Well,
Lynn:you I want to pull on something you said about your approach and how you now approach horses, because this is something that has changed with me from my childhood, for sure. When I was, I guess, 13, when my dad bought us a horse, it was our one, three month experience having a horse, and we we found an old video where my sister and I are, like, chasing the horse around with a brush, you know, just That's right, that's right. We had the right to just be up on him, to do anything. And I can look at that video today through the eyes of of many, many years later, and so much more wisdom to say, the poor guy, he was like, I'm over. It fine brush me for the first few minutes. But Can you tell I'm like, done, right? Not listening to me. You could. He wasn't. You know, the thing is, most horses, if they get loud enough for us to hear they're really annoyed because they Oh, yeah, that subtlety and and as I've learned to let the horse tell me what to do, when to do, how to do and how to approach in a relationship way, I'm much like you. I don't walk up to a horse and just start petting them, in fact, right? Most of the horse, most of the time, I ask you, would you like to be greeted? And, you know, they let you know if you pay attention, oh yeah. And yeah. Sometimes they're like, get on in here, yeah.
Unknown:Oh yeah, you know. And it because, because it's fascinating, it brings up a whole discussion that is a discussion for a whole different episode of a podcast. Is like, the horses really even want to be ridden? Like, and people ask me this, like, yeah, do they want to be ridden? And I look at brick and cracker, they're out grazing in the pasture right now. I've never seen one saddle itself or bridle itself. I've never seen it, and I think that's again, we have to make peace where we are on the spectrum. I know I absolutely enjoy and it brings me great depth to my life traveling with horses and mules. There will be another trip I will settle up and I will go out. I fantasize of going to the deep south with my recorder and going to Pentecostal churches in Alabama with a mule on a Sunday and listening to the music and being moved by the Spirit. You know, this is from a guy that's not, you know, a Christian, but it's real. That feeling I was in a Pentecostal church a month ago with my niece from Paris. It was amazing. Like there were testament. There were people testifying. Some woman went to the front of the church, testified, passed out in just a raptures fit. They put a purple blanket on her and kept on preaching. That's what I want to go or fantasize about visiting and learning about with a mule. But again, it's this trade off. It's this balance. Like, cracker, I don't know that he wants to go to the Pentecostal Church of Birmingham to, you know, have me do an audio recording. I think it'd be kind of cool. So it's something that's a very personal thing. Decision. This is an extreme case, but it's, you know, it's something I grapple with now that I used to not grapple with. Be like, Ah, come on, let's go. It's that old school thing tempered within with a newer way, a different way doing it. Yeah. I mean, you think force
Lynn:really isn't a very satisfying thing, but when you're in a dance of her, yeah, you know. And, and someone once asked me, way before I was into horses, I was in the middle of New York City, and we were working with a team of a Wall Street bank. And they said, What do you think the essence of teaming is? And out of nowhere, what came out of my mouth was the extent, to which the team is willing to yield to each other for the sake of a common goal. Yeah, the operative word will yield. Yeah. Think of every great team. It's, you know, they throw the pass to each other in basketball, or allow the other one to shine, or they don't take, you know, take their moment in the best way, in a blend. And there is nothing like being in harmony with a horse and I when I've been there, and it's been less than I'd like for it to have been, but it's been there. I do feel like they love it when we're together. Yes, I feel like they're having as much fun and as much joy as I am if we are both yielding to each other. I make an ask, they give. They make an ask. I give.
Unknown:Yes, it's absolutely it's that going back and forth and when, when I when I think of that question that I just asked you, like, should we be doing this? Should I be going on another trip somewhere else? I think of all the times, and it's probably the majority of times where I'm riding along on a trip, brick and crackers. Ears, they're long, they're mules. Crackers. Ears are down in front of me. They're flopping back and forth. I'm riding brick on a trail ride here at home, her eye is just totally blissed out. I've had friends ride her. You look at her, that eye is just, it's, it's, it's rapturous. As she's walking along under saddle, she's really happy to be there. And yet, if we come to a creek, we don't boot her across. We just let her wait. Take a look. It's break time. We're going to take a moment we're on cracker time. Take a moment we're on cracker time. We've come to a log. Okay, and that's feels good for both sides. It's that yield. It is back and forth that I've really, really come to respect much farther up my journey with horses,
Lynn:yeah, yeah, yeah, and watching them love it like one of my first times. This was actually last year with Stevie. We had, you know, I had, I had a pretty bad accident that started Yes, but yes, just mounting the horse on our ride in June, I actually came off and landed on my tailbone, yeah, yeah, and had to get back on but a different horse, and I was nervous about this horse, but we were about to go out for what was going to be. We didn't know how long, but it turned out to be a 15 mile ride that day. Yeah, sore tailbone. And now I didn't know it was gonna be 15 at the moment, but what I did know was I could get back on and immediately I could sense that Chuck was like, I've got you, yeah. And we rode. We didn't do too much trotting, because trotting just look good on my tailbone. Yeah, yeah. Eight miles of mostly walking, a little bit of trotting. But what was so cool when we finished, and as we were going, but even when we finished, you know, you would think if the horse didn't want to be there, he'd be like, Oh, thank God, get the saddle off. I'm done. And it was anything. It was like, are we done? You want another 10 miles? I'll go. And it was, it's just beautiful to see that we were in this partnership, and that he almost like he knew that he needed to take care of and I tell you what that meant and and so maybe I'm making it all up, but I really do believe horses are sentient beings without the mental junk that we put on top of things. Yeah, and yeah, they're just showing up moment by moment, and they let moments go fairly quickly as well.
Unknown:And, you know, it's fascinating. You mentioned the coming back from a ride, and you felt, wow, this was, was great. And you get the sense that the horse was like, you know, feels the same way. And there's, there's a wonderful, I wouldn't even call it could be a test. It could be observation is, and I've noticed this. I noticed this with Rick, when they're all and you go for your ride, you turn them loose, maybe you go away for half an hour, and then you come back, and you're you. Back in with a herd. We've got three horses, Two Mules there. They're just out in the pasture during the day, and at night they come in because they eat too much them off the grass. But there's a there's a wonderful test just on yourself and your presence is one year with those horses like and Pharaoh, Mustangs are great at pointing this out. Do they walk away? Are they indifferent? Do they come towards you? And I've seen various people using various training methods where they can, they can get results that it looks like the horses you know may be enjoying it, or looks like there's a bond, but when they're free in the pasture, that person walks up, they go to the other side of the pasture. That's a tail. Yeah, it's just, it's an observation. So it's neat to spend the time with these horses, and then when they're on their own in a pasture, no treats, none of that. How do they react to
Lynn:you? How do they react?
Unknown:How do they react? They pick it up. They know this is what very cool
Lynn:at rain rescue, when Julia comes out and you know you said, Vera, we have both ferals and Mustangs, domestic horses who were unhandled, and Mustangs that came from the BLM. We have a number of both, and there's even, even, even our most nervous Mustang, after a while, became he just needed, he just needed us to help him get over the hump, because he he wanted to be with us. It was just hard for him, and it's taken longer with him than any of them for him to be willing to put his head in the halter, but he does now, and when we walk out in any of the fields, every single horse comes up to us, yeah, not but because they want to engage. Because, you know, I have to give a huge shout out to joy Baker for really knowing how to offer these horses what they're looking for. Yes, yes. Julia comes and helps us a lot as well. And it's just amazing to see how much they're willing to engage when we give them a relationship.
Unknown:And you know, Julian, Julian, I've talked about this, and I'm going to, I'm going to come back to rain rescue for for listeners who are not familiar with rain rescue, it is a wonderful rescue. And Lynn, you know, kind of gave me some guardrails here, but it's in tri North Carolina, run by Joy Baker and a host of wonderful volunteers, including you Lynn and what I enjoy, and I've talked about this, it's a fascinating kind of mix or ecosystem of little bit different approaches. So Julia with a two step way, as you've described, and has observed, very grounded, you know, horses lie down with her. She teach, she can teach other people this, which is wonderful that you it's great if somebody's, you know, all woo, woo. But then a lot of those people kind of want to keep that on your wonder, if they want to keep it that spiritual, mystical secret, she doesn't. She's God, I don't know how to teach you, right, right? And she does. So that's the beautiful thing about her. So she's on one side or on one approach. And then we, we have to mention Bruce Anderson, because Bruce also works with rain rescue and joy Baker, and he has a different approach, but still gets when everything is combined, amazing results. So he's too, and I'm not going to, you know, Bruce is going to give you a much clearer description of this, but I do want to touch on it briefly. And I know you've had him on, you know, he's more of the, the React versus respond, with the alpha, the tyrant mindset working a little more with in round pens, or installs a little more pressure release. And it's beautiful to see this collection. And it comes to a balance at rain rescue. And it works. It works. Yes, so, ah, I'm getting goosebumps again, not, not quite like in a runaway with a mule, but it's wonderful to see how these different pieces they they work well.
Lynn:And, you know, I don't remember
Unknown:that Bruce
Lynn:would call what he does pressure and release, because what he's looking for,
Unknown:that's why, yeah, get him on.
Lynn:He's gonna kill me next time he's been on, he's been on the podcast. I've often been a translator for him, because it's hard for people to see what's happening. He gets very misinterpreted. What he has recognized is, I call this, and I've used this for years in my corporate world a pro. Improving versus improving mindset. And I noticed it when I was doing my TED Talk in 2015, long before my horse accident, where as we were coaching people, there were two mindsets when the pressure TED talks are high pressure, right? Very much pressure because they're putting a camera on you. You get one shot. It's going on the internet. Like it or not, no read, no redo. You're in front of an audience. It's got the TED brand. And in the group, I noticed that about half the people were so busy trying to prove they belonged there that they were not able to rise to the pressure of the moment. And actually, if you think about it, we're just asking him to do a skill that we know they can do. They can talk right. They learn to do that when they were young, but the skill went offline under the pressure of the moment, and other half had an improving mindset, meaning they were more vulnerable, more accepting of feedback, more willing to sort of look a little bit bad and recover and and their mindset was, I will rise to the pressure of the moment, and I can still speak. So those two distinctions. When I met Bruce, I was like, that's a very much of a parallel between this alpha and tyrant mindset, where you know his Tyrant is you're over or under reacting, whereas Alpha mindset means you're letting the situation tell you what to do, when to do, how to do. So, when he's applying pressure to a horse, he's only applying as much pressure. I've seen him apply almost no pressure if a horse is having a really hard time. But if a horse is sort of going, I don't want to, he'll, he'll add a little bit of pressure till the horse is like, oh, never mind. I can do this. I'm happy to do this for you. But he's looking for that very subtle, unseen mindset shift, which then helps that horse help himself when the pressure is on. And boy, I'll tell you I was grateful for that. I'm reading in my book, and then I'll finish the story and we'll move on. But this week, today, my book came out, chapters 10 and 11, and I'm for the first time, riding his horse, Marley, and I'm on a saddle with no stirrups. He's walking in front of me. And you know, you've been listening to my book. I frankly, it's a miracle I've ever gotten back on a horse. I was scared shitless. Yes, oh, Jesus. And so I'm wrong for the very first time, this horse is half Arabian. I'm aware that Arabians are more spirited. We've already been through a lot of stuff, and as we're coming back, one of his horses in the other pasture kicked a gate, and it made a huge ruckus, and sounded like a gunshot going off, and what was under me could have been any number of things. Any horse. Person knows when these these things happen. You hope the horse under you has a good mind. You hope they can stay present. You hope that horse can go yes, even in this pressure I've got you not. I'm shut down, not, I'm frozen, not. I'm too scared to act, but I am with you. I hear that, and I've got you, and that's what happened with me. I was on his horse. This horse kicked, and his horse was like, Yeah, I'm here. I fucked you, and you've got me. And to me, that is the beauty of his work, and it gets misunderstood because it looks like a lot if you're not aware that he's so tuned into that horse and what the horse is needing from him like a big brother teaching a Navy Seal how to do something difficult. Not he's not like he's not using that old school method, although it looks like it is. He's more like that big brother is what I've seen, right,
Unknown:right? And that attunement, it's so, so vital, because without, and this comes back to seeing that horse in there, yes, and that's through just, and I keep coming to my my mother, who really had struggled with Alzheimer's, that to me that seeing, there's, there's a being in there, there's a being in there, and that connection that has really, I think that's my route to, you know, getting this stronger bond with my animals. And I have done round pen work. I had been able to have the luck and the fortune of working with Ty Evans, who's mule trainer, great guy working on the, you know, the next thing you know, the physical moving the legs and stuff. But that connection that that comes first, whether it's, you know, through Bruce or Julia's work or another source, and I think that is where the the fresh growth on the. Uh, the tree of Equus. That's where it is, yeah,
Lynn:attunement all kind of comes down to it is, and recognition that there's a sentient being in there and, and frankly, I'm going to flip this right over to humans, because again, when we get behind the wall of social media, or when I'm working with leaders who get so caught up in needing to get to the end and having it be that I've got to get this thing done, and we do it in the horse world. I've got to get this move for the judges. I've got to get this horse across the bridge, or I've got to get these people to do this project, we forget that there's a sentient being, yeah, and I like to think of it as calling people up, not calling them out, like, help them rise into their very best. And again, frankly, under the very real pressures of this world, because we are pressure to horses and, you know, the corporate world isn't going to get any easier just because we want to acknowledge that it's difficult.
Unknown:But see, and this is the, this is a fascinating I'm going to take a little kind of a branch off this discussion where we talked about the pressure, you know, the corporate world, or the pressure of writing. What I found on my trip was there was a, there was a lot of pressure in the sense of, imagine you were riding out of North Carolina, western North Carolina, you're heading into Tennessee. It's a little skinny highway, two lanes. You're up against a guardrail, and here
Lynn:comes nervous for you reading those things, yes, an
Unknown:Amazon truck. Now imagine you're riding up the road. You got a guardrail on the right. You're leading your Pack Mule right up against a guardrail, facing traffic. And the reason I rode facing traffic was a semi when it when you're walking up the road at three miles an hour, you hear it way before it comes and it's like and then coming down the hill, puts on the Jake brakes, compression brakes, and he starts, and it blows by you. The front of the engine, or the motor, pushes wind the sides, buff you out, and then the back of the truck sucks you right into the road. Yeah, this happened hundreds and hundreds of times a week. Amazon gets its stuff to us in semis, the truck the roads were not built to ride up with a mule on a pack horse. It's really stressful. And then you get onto a gravel road. You're walking on loose rain, everything's chill. So it's this cycle of going through lots of pressure and then very blissful. Birds are chirping. A Cardinals up there, a scarlet chant. Tanager is singing, chimpan. Chimpan.
Lynn:Oh, how beautiful. You soak
Unknown:this up. And the reason I say this is because there's a tremendous amount of pressure. I got to Nebraska, and Julia came out to visit me. So in the sandy hills of Nebraska, place called Hyannis, and the mules were at their absolute peak of physical condition, mental condition. They were, I mean, cracker, who's just a skinny Tennessee Walker mule. He looked incredible. Muscled up, relaxed. Brick was just shiny as you know, as polished copper. So the the reason I mentioned this is, yes, there's a lot of pressure, but also it can lead to greatness, like, if you're going with that, yes, it's not yet this was like their greatest moments were act in many cases, depending on you measure it. On this trip, because we did something different. We rode down the gate, out the front gate. I was kind of freaking out, but I broke it into little pieces and did this. And wow, I wouldn't have gotten there if I would have enjoyed, as I often enjoy, my kind of blissed out. I've got a empty head. It's a lovely place to be. You also have to be aware that there's a story of the Lotus Eaters, who just live in bliss perpetual bliss. That's not for me. I mean, I just have a naturally either empty brain. Joyce says, sometimes, like, part of your brains may be missing, like some of the dangerous that's just gone, but, and okay, but. I think we need some of that pressure. I personally, I need a bit of that tension. And, you know, I was at the rodeo with Julia writing the book, was like, these guys are ranch rodeo. They're bucking out Broncos. They're, you know, there's other ranch roads had, like a wild cow milking event, and it's supposed to reflect things that ranchers do. They don't milk wild cows anymore. And I thought, this is just crazy. And then I was like, okay, but be honest. Now you've ridden to Hyannis, and when those when crackers sometimes bolts or boogers a little bit or takes off. You get a little adrenaline rush, don't? You know? It's like, yeah, it's, it's kind of alluring. So I don't want to live a life that's just perfectly zenned out. I just, I don't. I need both. I need both. So
Lynn:with you. I actually think pressure is the thing that elevates that. And something I will tell you this, or your, your book was Philippe MAZZETTI, who, I know, yes,
Unknown:who interviewed awesome guy, awesome
Lynn:guy. He was on works podcast, and so I got to meet him. I was, I actually, we got to hang out both at the at the podcast summit in 2023 and then at echoes Film Festival. He was there or not. Yeah, it was Equis Film Festival, so we got a chance to visit. But here's the big insight, big aha moment I had as he was describing his long ride he talked about after, I think, he wrote something like a combination of 17,000 miles on a horse from north to south, like Canada to Brazil, I think. And then he said he kind of had a bit of depression, yes. And all of a sudden, Bernie, I had this moment. I wrote it on a note while I was sitting in there when he gave the speech. And I will, I said deep pressure equals depression, and I just think we need pressure. Our ancestors, when they lived off the land, had the pressure that you had on your ride every night, the hunter gatherers every night had to find out complete where will we get how will we care for ourselves and each other? And I think down into our very bone marrow, we're designed for that kind of pressure more than the life we live now, yes,
Unknown:and you're absolutely right. I think we need the range. And I think and scientists are understand this. Julie understands a lot better than I do. But we need that range of pressure. Some, you know, a mix of of sympathetic, which is the fight or flight, and the parasympathetic, the rest and digest. We need that range. And I think sometimes it's easy in the in the current culture that is very much about. And I'm all for this understanding, enlightenment, P inner peace. I'm I'm for every bit of this. And this is actually the part of the journey that I'm on now. It can be easy to tip, I wouldn't say too far into this, you can never be too peaceful, but maybe focus almost exclusively on that at the expense of not getting into those other that other side, where there is some more pressure and there is the unexpected, then things are imperfect, and you set off, and you're you're uncomfortable, and, you know, maybe you're cold, your feet hurt. Maybe you have to, you know, walk your horse because you can't ride him, but, but that opens up, I think, a whole flexibility that we really need in our lives. I couldn't agree more, but it's really hard to volunteer, and I'll get this moment, but it's really hard to challenge ourselves to do that. By nature. I love to travel. I've I just I, I travel, you know, long distances on horses. I've done a lot of it, but it's comfortable at home. It's nice. And sometimes it's like, okay, you need to get out a little. Of course, I want to do it, but we have to push ourselves a little bit, whether it's business or ski, water skiing, or riding a horse, like, I mean, do you see what I'm saying? It's one it's very important to be grounded, centered, but sometimes you just need to, you know, do some batshit crazy stuff.
Lynn:That's the dancing, the tightrope that I'm talking and experience as I was just in so sort of total burnout of my corporate life, and just really kind of running on one. Kind of mode. I started waking up and went the other way. And I was doing meditation retreats, and, you know, journaling and burning candles and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right, trying to, I was like, Oh, wonderful stuff. Yoga, candles, meditation, I found it. And, you know, I kind of wanted to go into bliss, and that was it. And what started happening was the seesaw of I'd go to a meditation retreat, I'd find my bliss. I'd hold my fingers together, I'd be home, whatever, and then I'd have road rage on the way home, right?
Unknown:It was awful. That's good. That makes such a great cartoon. Yeah,
Lynn:have I changed anything now? I just know this other thing. But where is it when I need it under pressure? Yeah, this moment you mentioned Bruce, and I tell the story in my book, but I was coming back from his, from his place, and got caught in traffic on a on an exit ramp, and the next day I was telling him about it, and said, Yeah, I wish I could have had my James Bond car to blow the cars up. Because, guess what? I had my road rage again, and he had one simple sentence that changed everything. He goes, great opportunity to work on patients. Yeah, and not this. This one isn't in the book, but a few times later, maybe three or four visits later, I was leaving his place and got caught in a massive thunderstorm, and it's the kind of storm that in the past would have caused me to panic and probably like, maybe have a wreck, because I hadn't had a wreck before, but, but maybe because I was so panicked. And what was interesting is I was able to take what he had just been teaching me at his place to the car, right pressure. And I was like, that's why this is different, right? Because I can bring the peace of mind from the retreat into real life. And I had road rage at all since I just put that hat on and say, take it. Moment by moment, show up.
Unknown:And I think that's why it's so important to view these, these practices, meditation, lighting candles, you know, all these dot, meditation, whatever. I think it is so important. And I think, I think we're sometimes tempted to see these more as like app endeavors or tools, discrete tools. But there we need to remember this is a way of being, a way of being, always, not just when you're doing it. It's a way of being, yeah, and sometimes when we see meditation or prayer or lighting a candle. We we we think of it as a tool, because that's a very handy way of labeling things. But the problem with that is it defines it as a discrete object, and then the candle goes out. You stop your prayer. It's like you put that tool on the workbench and then you walk out of the shop and tell somebody to piss off because they cut you off. But it's a way. Yes, it's a way. And that is the where it really hit me, the way was haltering brick, like it's more than about not tipping her nose. It's more than about seeing her. It's about, you know, living a life where that tipping the nose towards you because she wants to translates into the grocery checkout lane when someone forgets their wallet, which happened to me, God, forgot his wallet two weeks ago at a grocery store, and usually I would just walk away. And I was so moved by brick that I to see her. I was like, No, don't worry about that. At least I said, I'll get you groceries. Just what do you got paid for his groceries that way came from this more seeing it. So we need to remember these. These aren't discrete tools. As you say, you don't put them down until somebody piss off in traffic and honk your horn. It's yeah, which is what I was doing. Yeah, it's very easy. I've done it, and I still do
Lynn:it. Actually really changed. But what I discovered is if while I'm agitated under pressure, and this is the critical part, because pressure creates an internal agitation, Stevie Delahunt calls it productive distress, I think that's the moment to make a different choice than I normally make, and then I get a new neural rewiring. Yeah? Because you the neurology is fire it twice, it's wired. And so you get a chance for your brain to create a new neural pathway. If you do it under pressure, which you're not doing in the meditation retreat, you're kind of, yeah, getting rid of the pressure there. And so it's different when you do it under pressure. So yeah. And. Right? And speaking of, I have this question I've wanted to ask you, because I can't even pick out all the moments to move. And I'm going to pick this, this trip, of all your trips, two meals to triumph, where for you on that trip was your greatest moment of personal pressure.
Unknown:It felt like not a moment at all, which is why it freaked me out. Okay, so I was been on the road six months. I'd, you know, when you take these long trips, you start out first night in the ground is like, Oh, damn, it's hard. I feel like a skeleton lying here. I feel every bone in my body, and I Miss Julia, and I miss Snooki, and I Miss Polly and you know, and Friday night dates, and you think you still have your home life. And as the trip progresses, you know that the trip starts becoming your new life. Roaming feels more like home than home was and and I was in Wyoming, very close to South Pass, which is this, this divide where the Great Migration went over the Rocky Mountains. It was cold. It was very close Ice, ice out and upon is middle of nowhere, and I wasn't feeling the cold anymore. I wasn't thinking of anything but nothing. And so some people would say, Wow, you have arrived at what people really strive to do, like, this is enlightenment. Isn't this amazing? And I just was, there was some antelope out front in my tent. I looked at him. Those are antelope. Those are just, it was just perfect. One of the most blissful times in my life. The next morning, it's freezing cold, I slept with all my clothes on. It's getting to be winter, you know, coming into the Rockies. The next moment, the next morning, I woke up, had all my clothes on, made a cup of coffee in my sleeping bag, blew in the cup, it made this big cloud of steam. I had my little wool cap on to keep warm. I took a photo of it, and I thought, I'm going to look at this photo later, because I can't look at it now. So I took the photo to I was in um pond outside a place called Daniel Wyoming, staying with a vet, getting health papers. And I sent the photo to Julia. And I looked at the photo, and I was really proud of it, because it to me, it looked like this, this man who was just absolutely blissed out, just blissed out. That was my take on it, because that's why I felt I didn't feel cold. I didn't feel think of home. I was just the invite. I was just the universe. Julie looked at the photo, and she wrote, My brother that we're all very close. She's She said, in effect, I hate that photo, and it scares me, because that's a photo of a man who's tuned out. He doesn't know where home is he. He will keep going. What is going to stop you? Do you have to come to an ocean like? I hate that photo. It scares me. Wow. And I was like, all damn in, in and it's fascinating. This is this, this bliss thing. The flip side of that is, this was my peak, personal bliss out there, dissolution of the self moment and to the most important person in my life, it looked like something totally different. And so that was a really big wake up, wow, call on my trip, and that's when I knew it was time to go home. It was time to go home. And so I rode another month, or month and a half, and called a trip in Sun Valley, just as it got brutally cold and all the passes snowed
Lynn:shut. Yeah, wow, you made it,
Unknown:yeah, yeah. So, so I made it. But that was really the that was the moment, that was the moment that was the moment it was fascinating. On, you know, we're all, we're all, or many people are striving for this, this Zen being. Being perfect, whatever piece, but it also it can affect us, and it can also affect those around us. You know, I wasn't maybe paying attention to Julie's I should have so, yeah, it's good to be home. When I asked
Lynn:you the question, I was like, is he gonna tell me about the night he found all the ticks on himself? Or that guy?
Unknown:Um, Jay Thompson, oh, this club outside my tent, hockey with
Lynn:the club, and you don't have any clothes on in your tent. And he's, like, thinking you're getting a gun or whatever. Like, those are the kind of might have thought were your big pressure, but it was sort of the moment you went, like you said, too far the way, other way think about this theme that we've been talking about. It's like, back and forth across the line. Yeah, right. There's a balance we move. We're always moving back and forth across that balance point and so too far, yeah.
Unknown:And that was, that was the that was the inner far, because that was the, the closest to my being, my heart, my existence, my existence, my relationship with Julie. That's the the core of who I am. You'd mentioned the ticks in the club. Those were more freak out. Oh, my God, I got you know, am I going to bolt or run? But those, those moments, they pass, they're fleeting. They can be terrifying, but then your heart races, and your your body fills up full of adrenaline, yeah, and then things settle back down. But when you're when you've gone too far, potentially inside yourself, can't outrun that once, yeah, I mean, the freak out, the physical. Great example of this was I was, as you just mentioned, I was lying naked in a tent in Kentucky. I thought I'd gotten permission to spend the night here in this tent. It was hot. I was naked by Riverside, and I hear this, who are you? And I'm like, oh, man, oh, I've been found out. And he's like, who are you? And I'm naked. I've got on, like nothing, but I'm wearing so on my trip, I wear these, like, quick dry shirts. I'm a khaki shirt and Canvas, you know, or khaki blue shirt, khaki pants. Kind of guy, I can slip into that anywhere. But I wasn't really familiar with these quick dry pants and shirts, and the damn sleeves on the shirts were knotted in the x and, you know, the pants were inside out, and I'm struggling to get in. And I'm like, biggest thought was like, Don't get shot. Don't get shot. So I'm like, Hey, be right out. I'm Bernie Harper. I don't know why he's supposed to know who I am, but I was just trying to talk with him, you know, keep that connection. Just voice. He couldn't see me. I'm like, and Bernie Roberts, I'll be right out. It's like, who are you? Told him again. So I crawl out of my tent, and I look out and there's this guy with a club, and just a silhouette standing over my head. Oh my god. I'm like, oh man. I'm like, and it was just total. It was supplication. At that point, it was supplication. It was like, you know, stayed on my knees. It was very much like begging for forgiveness. It was not, I did not come out with, like, this huge show of strength. We don't know how we're going to react. And I was literally on my knees, you know, saying my name, saying, you know, hi, trying to keep him to talk. And he ended up I didn't get clubbed to death. He was a convicted felon. This is why I had a club and not a gun. He knew whose camp, whose land I was camping on, and so that worked out, even that really terrifying moment, nothing happened like that. Is many people's ultimate fear to be killed, stabbed, shot, beaten to death. It looked like it had the potential of that, but it didn't happen. Never had a problem, like, you know, on the trip. But again, that is a that's more of a physical freak out moment. Yeah, it's, it's the spiritual drifting too far that really, you know, I thought about a lot after that.
Lynn:Yeah, isn't it interesting that distinction between the scene and the unseen? You know, the physically and the tangible world is often what we get caught up in. But what's driving it, I believe, is that unseen that fit that that spiritual side, and that's what Julia saw in that picture and going, wow. Yeah, that, if that thing is driving him there, I don't like where that goes, yeah,
Unknown:yeah, that is the, that's the deep stuff, because the, you know, traveling with mules, like you mentioned, the ticks, I woke up because I slept naked. It was hot and fac woke up just covered in what I thought were bacon bits. And I'm and I'm like, they're like, in my crotch and my legs everywhere. And I'm like, I don't have skin tags down there. Yeah. Start picking on them, and they're like, Oh man, they're full of they're ticks. So I crush them, and they come off the horse, the saddle pads I'd been sleeping on, those things, the close calls, you know, with tractor trailers being you know, I was chased by dog in riding up a highway in Tennessee. White dog runs off a guy's porch. Imagine you're riding along. You're not only riding a horse, but you're leading a pack animal or a mule. You leading a pack mule off to your right side, and you've got to hold on to that animal on the road. You don't want your pack animal to get loose because they get hit on the road. This this dog chases out into the road. The Pack Mule brick runs behind my back, wraps the lead rope around my back, and so we're galloping between cars coming our way, and I can't pull her up, because if I pull her up, the lead rope is going to rip me off the back of the saddle. So I have to keep it's like you got to gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop. And so I finally get her pulled up without it getting ripped out of the saddle or hit by a car. Their car swerving around. Get her pulled over on the side of the road, the dog is barking at us, and it's like pandemonium. But it that passed. That moment passed. There's a freak out, you know, half an hour after like that, you just, I just reeked from all the endorphins and adrenaline and the sweat and the stress, and that was a was a freak out. But interestingly enough, by that evening, I'd long forgotten about that. It's just that was a physical thing. You know, I got, I got thrown in Kentucky, and I had been wearing my top hat because it was the land of Lincoln. Fortunately, taking my top hat off, put my helmet on, smashed my head into the ground so hard it broke my helmet into three pieces. Wow, that's how hard I hit right on my temple, destroyed the helmet. It's a bad accident, you know, it kind of knocked me silly for a day or two. I having some trouble remembering names of places I'd been, and Julia talked me through, you know, checking my eyes. It was a bad accident. But the reason I say that that was a physical thing, the personally, the bigger thing was that spiritual thing, of like, you've gone too far on this thing, this string of sometimes very crazy looking experiences, that wasn't ultimately what really got my attention. It was that that that drift too far into my, into myself, into nothingness. Wow. I mean, does that? Does that make sense? The difference between that physical,
Lynn:it makes tremendous sense and and actually, I also picked up on something as you were galloping away from the white dog. You actually, while you called it a freak out, you had the presence of mind to recognize the lead rope was wrapped around you couldn't do what your instinct would tell you to do, because it would cause even a bigger problem, you know, and the fact that you're able to gallop and Dodge cars and keep from pulling yourself off with a lead rope in the middle of the road tells me you're pretty present under pressure. Doesn't mean you're causing you tremendous discomfort, right? You kept your you stayed within yourself. It sounds like you were actually present. Minded Yes,
Unknown:yes, in that case. And I think this goes back to what you're talking about, you know, rewiring those neural networks, the net networks. This is, these are learned skills. I didn't come out knowing this. I mean, I had to learn how to saddle a horse, saddle a pony called snowflake. My brother and I bought it for $25 we split the cost. This was 1974 so the Christmas card 75 so the Christmas card of her bucking, you learn to post. You learn to you know, ride with one hand, this is all built up. These were intentional steps that led to this, this muscle memory, and I think it's within all of us to do that. If someone is afraid of going on a trail ride because they're unsure. Sure their their horse, which usually means they're unsure themselves. The good news is there are steps to to do this, whether it's working with Bruce, whether it's working with Julia, whether it's working with a host of other very qualified people. To build these steps. My case was kind of extreme, and I come at from it, I bring to it of just a very, I guess, a strong physicality. I've always been very physical, yeah, but where I maybe don't see as much as the seeing, you know, the spiritual thing. It took a lot to get to that point. So, so yes, these are all things that people can can build up. And I would encourage people to do
Lynn:it absolutely. You mentioned the 50 foot trail ride from Warwick, sure, and then have a quote from him, because when I had my accident on a trail, of course, I thought it was, quote, unquote, just trail riding, and because I'd seen all from trying to Equestrian Center, all these arena horses that are doing fancy things like jumping and dressage and so forth. I thought trail riding was just trail riding. And then, you know, you find out, yeah, if you're prepared. But he has this whole quote in my book that that about what it takes to be prepared to do those things. But why not? It's worth the journey. And you know, as you've heard, I have become quite the trail rider now, and love being out on horses, and have faced wild and dramatic things, but because I was prepared, like you, I'm not. I've not been galloping down the horse leading a mule in the middle of the road. But, you know, I've had a turkey fly nose. I've had a horse that decided that he really hated cows and decided to run, you know, which we didn't do, but that was his preference, and all it all
Unknown:feels the same. Lynn, yeah, running up the road with traffic and a pack mule feels exactly the same way as when a turkey flies up in front of you, that the unexpected and that burst of white energy, or whatever, it's all the same. It's all the same. And
Lynn:then are you present? Are you going to do and see what happened when I realized on my accident was my my neural wiring to that point had been freak out, panic, hope you don't die. And this journey, which, you know, Bruce Anderson, has been a huge, huge piece of, is there's another thing to do when you're under pressure, which is, be there, yeah. And build your mental schools so that you can actually be there, yeah. And, you know, and, and, yeah, so,
Unknown:and this being there, this being there, I think so much of it gets done. That's background work. I think that's, that's the way that we live daily. I think that's, that's kind of putting the skills into the account for when you need it, it's it's just there,
Lynn:it's just there. And it's helped me a lot, is to learn. You said this earlier. I didn't really pull it out at the moment, but breaking it down into the tiny steps without being so attached to the goal that that that only thing that counts is the end. Like I can't imagine what it would have been like for you if you're seven months from Lenore to Haley. Would have been only successful if you just made it to Haley, because you had right 1000s, if not millions, of moments to capture. Yeah, the goodness of Yes, which were survival after the guy with the club and survival after the run, but also the the bliss of hearing the Cardinals and seeing the butterflies and yes, so you in the book, just so take us into those moments where Haley was the reason for the journey, but getting there wasn't the only thing that mattered. In fact, it was the last thing that mattered,
Unknown:right, right? And you know, when I set out on this trip, I gave the mules and I they come first. The mules needs comes first, absolutely, food, water, shelter. And that's why I chose those words, the mules and I had the right to stop at any time, whether for weather or whatever reasons, lameness. And I've traveled enough to know I really wanted to take the pressure off saying we're going to Haley, Idaho, if we drag ourselves, if I have to drag the mules there across the finish line, we're gonna go. I've learned this that's not the way you do it. And taking that pressure off and giving me and us the freedom to stop at any time, it was incredibly liberating. And I think we live in a. A goal oriented society. You know, I love the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. You know, these are wonderful, great books, but sometimes we get so wound up in ABC priorities, right? No Covey planning and again, these are all wonderful, wonderful tools. We forget that it's okay just to, like, not have goals just or just flow ahead. Have a light, easy hold on the direction your life is taking. You have a don't hold on to your life too hard?
Lynn:Yeah, wow. That is amazing advice, and a great way for us to begin sort of taking this, this train home from this conversation, because holding on to your life lightly. Look what a rich life that's given. Yeah, interesting. Sometimes
Unknown:when you hold the reins lightly, you get a runaway. Sometimes when you hold the reins lightly, you hear the the scarlet Tanager singing, chimpan. Chimpan,
Lynn:yeah, but
Unknown:you gotta kind of hold him lightly, but keep steering. Don't let the horse eat too much. The
Lynn:point is you can always adjust and yes, yes, my takeaway from that is that your identity was not caught in the end of your goal, that you just were there each moment. And I can't recommend that book, and actually also the lossy expedition. I'm going to have to go read your other books too, but both the visual of the lost the expedition and two mules to triumph were just fascinating stories. I'm actually going to go back and read two mules to triumph again. Wow, because I I read it a few months ago. Get You know, you gave me a copy. I gave it to a friend to read. I got myself another copy in preparation for this conversation, and started going back in. It's like I need to read this again, because I'm going to read it with a whole new set of eyes, especially after this conversation.
Unknown:Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank and I'm working on the audio book, which I know is going to be a great recording, because about a third of it is me laughing.
Lynn:I am so glad you're such a fun book to be allowed, and we can't make this conversation without me saying aloud my gratitude for you helping me and reading my own book. I've started doing that on my podcast, as people know, and if, because it'll when this comes out, I will have just finished reading the last chapter of it, and then it'll come out as an audible book. But you were an incredible piece of that journey of me deciding because, ironically, as you heard me saying, reasons why I shouldn't do it. You did this beautiful holding the reins lightly, moment where you said, Well, maybe it's just not for you to read an audible book, yeah, and somehow that gave me the space to say and maybe it is, and it was up or two or three weeks after you said that, that I started reading
Unknown:the book. Well, I'm incredibly honored. I've really enjoyed listening to it. I know you had some when we talked on you had some concerns. But the thing is, sometimes the things that concern us people, they don't, first of all, they don't notice and they're thrilled. So forget about it. Put it out. Give yourself room and do it like
Lynn:you said, with your journey, you know, you gave yourself permission to turn around at any time. And I started by just breaking it down, saying, okay, I can sit in front of my computer with a recording on for reading one chapter. It's not going to kill me, yeah? And when I finished it, I was like, That wasn't so bad. I'll try another one. And then I started to hear people we really like it, and next thing I knew, I was liking it. And so, you know, that's what I would say to anybody, is hold the reins lightly and just take one
Unknown:step. Yeah, the world will thank you. Forget about you. The world will thank you. I loved it. I've really enjoyed listening
Lynn:to surprise me more. I was like, Really, but they did. They have and so, and I know lesson there. So tell me what's coming next for you, and then how people can find you, but you've got some things cooking, so tell everybody what's going on.
Unknown:Yeah. So the, the next immediate thing is getting the audio book out for two mules to triumph, which is absolute blast. And then immediately, immediately, I've, I'm fascinated and really good at fitting hoof boots to mules. It's just, it's something I know a lot about. I really this gets to imagining like, if I was a horse from you, I don't want to wear steel shoes to bed. Would it be barefoot? Well, I do it. So I'll be giving at Mule Days at Leatherwood on Thursday, May. May 1, I believe it is, this is very soon, a hoof book program on hoof booting for mules and horses, be giving individual sessions for that. I know that's some people may not be able to make that, but that'll be really helpful for people with hoof boots on their mules and horses as well. And then I always dream of the next trip running off with brick and cracker somewhere down south, to go to Pentecostal churches and listen to great music and listen to back porch music. And I just, I fantasize of just bringing a little recorder and just listening to people you know, hearing about their lives, their music, and showing up with two mules in their lives. That's my fantasy. I don't know if I do it or not.
Lynn:Well, I hope if you do, you'll, you'll record some fashion like you did, yeah, video, because I think we're going to want to share that journey with
Unknown:you. Thanks. Yeah, it's going to be something, something is building
Lynn:and and tell us what's the best way for people to find you, because I guarantee you they're going to watch these shows and read this book, these books.
Unknown:Yeah, sure. So there, there are a couple of places my kind of my home is river earth.com that's the website where I do most of my or do all my blogging. I blog or post everything there before I put it on social media, I am on Facebook at Bernie Harper's, the Book Two Mules to triumph is available on Amazon. The Lost Sea expedition, which is about going Canada, Mexico. It's a four part series when it was premiered on Rocky Mountain. PBS, that's available on Amazon as well. Another really fascinating project I've just finished little while back a couple years ago, PBS North Carolina accompanied my mule poly through a little ramble through eastern North Carolina. It ran on PBS North Carolina was very, very well received. It won a Emmy Award for Morgan Potts, who directed it. And this two months ago, mule Paul and I, you'll probably 33 now, we did a week long ramble through eastern North Carolina's Lake madam, mesquite area, right as folks may remember, we had a really cold snap, then we had six inches of snow. Got snowed in in 100 year old wagon with the film gear. I filmed this at the PBS North Carolina film crew there. This is coming out in July, and it is bonkers extraordinary, both from life in a mule wagon to the people the that we met on this trip. And again, it exposes that that vulnerability on both sides my vulnerability and the people I met, vulnerability and meeting, and the incredibly rare opportunity to have this filmed and documented that should be showing early July on PBS, North Carolina, lot of really cool stuff coming up. And I do need to, definitely want, want to mention again, rain rescue doing absolutely wonderful work. Bruce Anderson, integral part. All the volunteers down. Don't forget. And of course, I'm saving her for last. I'm sorry, remind me when her birthday was again. And of course, Julia Carpenter, my wife, she's the founder of the two step way, formerly known as the two step technique. Now it's the two step way. The tagline of that is a two step way to be and to see, oh, I love it absolutely helped me out. You know, well, along on my trip, and that is like, Oh, we got a new trip. So Julia Carpenter, wonderful, wonderful influence. I'm glad I came home to her from Wyoming. I'm glad she hated that picture. I thought it was all enlightened. She's like, I hate that.
Lynn:I want you back burning, not the numbed out version. No, I actually can't say enough good things about you. I'm along for the ride into what joy? Baker, yes, fantastic. And we have, we have several future, I hope, podcast guests that we've mentioned on this podcast, including joy and, oh, you got to get joy on,
Unknown:yeah, and Bruce again, and you got to get Julie on, because she so, so Julia will tell you, like the inverse of what I just told you. She can tell you know, well, she's fascinating, and she will. Have her take on what I do and what she does. You know, it's, it's, it's helped me tremendously, and it will, will help your listeners. Well, we're
Lynn:all individuals, and I think we're all here to do our work, and it's not the same. So he is for us to shine as brightly as we possibly can with what we're here to do, yes, yes, and let other people be their own bright lights, which I think you do. Well,
Unknown:yeah, well, thanks. I've I've really enjoyed this. I have
Lynn:to. Bernie, thank you so much for being here. And for those of you who've been listening, thank you listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends. Make your comments rate the podcast so the word can get out there. If you want to continue to follow me, you can find me@lyncarns.com and subscribe to the coaching digest where I do my regular blogging and where the podcast comes out. So on that, look forward to seeing you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations, and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be of value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and, of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today. You.