#94 Julia Carpenter: The Two Step Way

My guest for this episode of the podcast is Julia Carpenter. This episode started unlike any other I’ve done. Julia read a passage from a non-published book she calls the Prologue to the Unwritten Memoir. The passage was a launching point for touching on many, many themes. Perhaps the most important was the theme of finding our true nature and purpose in this world.

 Julia also happens to be the wife of my last podcast guest, Bernie Harberts, and in this conversation, we touched on some of the same stories as Bernie’s podcast, but from the angle of the one staying at home. 

Here’s a little more about Julia:

Julia Carpenter is the founder of The Two Step Way, twostepway.com. The Two Step Way helps horse owners and caregivers learn how to be with their horses and how to really see them to promote connection, trust and health. Julia is interested in helping animals, particularly horses, heal from trauma and has studied intently with that goal in mind.

She grew up on a horse farm in Vermont and has been a licensed riding instructor and trainer working with racehorses, hunter jumpers, polo ponies and field hunters.

Julia has had a lifelong friendship and association, researching, training and caring for animals. She loves volunteering to help out animal rescues with her knowledge. She has a private practice helping people and their equines learn and benefit from her Two Step Way.

Julia has degrees in wildlife management and environmental policy from Boston University and Tufts and has worked in the wildlife and environmental fields. She is a painter, and her animal paintings have been shown in galleries and shops in the Boston area and western NC. She is the author of one little cookbook called Pet Food: 16 Dessert Recipes to Make You Smile.

Julia lives on a small farm in the mountains of western North Carolina with her husband Bernie Harberts, the Long Rider, filmmaker, and author, in addition to two rescue border collies, three mules, a rescue pony and her halflinger. She enjoys riding in the mountains around her farm and on longer rides with Bernie. She blogs about her life with the animals, equine rambling and the Two Step Way at ConsideringAnimals.com. She also blogs about working with horses at her twostepway.com website.

Transcript

Intro: 0:02

Lynn, Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now here's your host. Lynn Carnes,

Lynn: 0:19

welcome to the Creative Spirits Unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode of the podcast is Julia carpenter. This episode started unlike any other I've ever done. Julia read a passage from a non published book she calls the PROLOG to the unwritten memoir. The passage was a launching point for many, many themes for this podcast. Perhaps the most important was the theme of finding our true nature and purpose in this world. Julia also happens to be the wife of my last podcast guest, Bernie Harbert, and in this conversation, we touched on some of the same stories as we did in Bernie's podcast, but from the angle of the one staying at home. Now, here's a little bit more about Julia. Julia carpenter is the founder of the two step way, which is at the two step way.com. The two step way helps horse owners and caregivers learn how to be with their horses and how to really see them, to promote connection trust and health. Julia is interested in helping animals, particularly horses, heal from trauma, and has studied intently with that goal in mind. She grew up on a horse farm in Vermont and has been a licensed riding instructor and trainer working with race horses, Hunter jumpers, polo ponies and field hunters. Julia has had a lifelong friendship and association, researching training and caring for animals. She loves volunteering to help out animal rescues with her knowledge. She has a private practice helping people and their equines learn and benefit from her two step way. Julia has degrees in wildlife management and environmental policy from Boston University and Tufts, and has worked in the wildlife and environmental fields. She is a painter, and her animal paintings have been shown in galleries and shops in the Boston area and western North Carolina. She is the author of one little cookbook called pet food, 16 dessert recipes to make you smile. Julia lives on a small farm in the mountains of western North Carolina with her husband, Bernie harberts, the long rider, filmmaker and author, in addition to two rescue Border Collies, three mules, a rescue pony and her halflinger, she enjoys riding in the mountains around her farm and on longer rides with burning she blogs about her life with animals, equine rambling and the two step way at considering animals.com she also blogs about working with horses at her two stepway.com website. I will say this, I'm on the board of rain rescue, and we have found Julia's work to be just life changing for both the humans and the horses. So she is someone who walks her talk, and as you know, that's the kind of people I love to have on my podcast. I hope you enjoy this episode with Julia carpenter. Julia Carpenter, welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast.

Unknown: 3:07

Thank you. Lynn. I'm so happy to be here.

Lynn: 3:10

I've been wanting to do this with you for a while. We'll we'll let the listeners know later how we've been working together off and on for quite a while now. But we when we started talking about doing this, you sent me a piece of writing, and you call it the PROLOG to an unwritten memoir. When I read it, I immediately was like, there's so many threads and so many beautiful things here that. And you suggested that we might start this way. So I'm going to actually start by saying, can we take this unwritten memoir, Prolog and speak it into being on the beginning of this podcast, and then we'll go from there?

Julia: 3:52

Sure. Thank you for the opportunity to read it. I think it's found its purpose. It was written a few years back. But then when I was reading the description of what your podcast was about and what your intention for your podcast is, it just kept coming up in my mind. And otherwise, I mean, it has been buried in my computer. And I thought, Oh, I wonder if I even can find that. And so when I did, it seemed like a good fit. And particularly, I know you recently had my husband Bernie on, and it just sort of ties us together and and it just seemed fitting to read, so I will read it. Thank you so much. Prolog to an unwritten memoir. When you are seven, you know who you wish to become when you are 50, you are lucky if you remember who that was. The lucky few travel straight and fast to their destination. For the rest of us. Route winds. The route becomes obscure. The route is blocked. The route lies. The route demands more money than we have. The route wishes to please others. The route gets distracted. The route leads to a different destination, or finds its way back again after many switchbacks and turnarounds, sometimes later in life, you must walk yourself back to find the child and ask her again what the dream was. You are lucky if you can find her again this time, if you do find her, grab a hold of her hand and walk with her to that destination that was once her powerful dream, a dream that made her bursting to grow up and to set out, if only the child had been brave enough, bold enough, full of enough courage and self assurance to yell at you when you went off course, if she could have whispered to you, don't listen to that. Come on. Follow me. I am your heart. Let's keep going. We'll find our way. We're not wrong. We know best where we are going, if only that child could have solved up like a mule and refused to go any other way but her own. Because now life feels short and years feel robbed. Now, though the child has been found and allowed to speak, listen intently to her as this is you follow her, organize your priorities around her dreams. Re establish your values, question your fears, Buck your naysayers. Understand that time is fleeting, and the child in you is bursting to realize as much of the dream as is still possible. Please help her. There is nothing, nothing more precious or urgent for you to understand. This is the way to live. This is the way to die with less regrets. This is the way to self expression. This is the way to create. This is the way to best be you when all of us from a young age, something whispers at us, something beckons or calls to us, we want to explore the sea, perhaps, or ride horses fast at the wind. We want to write books or climb mountains, paint huge, colorful canvases, or become rock stars, discover new planets, or dance so beautifully that it makes people cry. These are big dreams with no walls around them. The entry is open and we are hooked. They are just beyond our childhood. We say we will become these, the people who do these things. We follow our dreams until finally, they disappear under a pile of obstacles. Few dig them out again, but more is buried there than just the childhood dream. A piece of your soul has been covered in this dirt. Find a way to wipe it free an old gray Dodge pickup pulling a flatbed with a rusty horse trailer welded to it and a red covered wagon strapped on the back, pulls out of my driveway. Inside the horse box is a small, stout mule, and in the in the truck driving away is a man who listens to his dreams. He is on his way to walk across Newfoundland with his mule and wagon. I am jealous of him. I am in awe of him. I am in love with him. Although I am married and I have only barely known this man for three days, his dreams feel familiar. He has slept nights out under the stars with his animals. He has traveled with them. He has spent days with only them. They have walked through wilderness together. He has raced steeplechase horses. These dreams are familiar. They smack of my childhood dreams, and he has awakened their echo deep within me. These dreams of mine lay buried. His are realized. I watch with sadness as the truck and trailer pull away. I wish I were go. I was going. I wish I was free to leave. I wish I had found my way to where he is in life. I wish the story forward was about us. I wish I had understood I was off my path before I had woven others into the fabric of my life. Now I need to dig and tear to dig and dig and unearth all that is piled up on top of these dreams to tear myself out of the fabric others have come to depend on. It will hurt. It will wrench good people who do not deserve it will be hurt in the process. It seems almost better to leave it all alone. Yet I cannot. I want to go back and to find the path the one I started out on. I want to shake myself free. I have gone off course by influence to please others, from lack of courage, from loyalty, from grief, from love, from poor self confidence, from circumstance, from half lives, I have told myself from compromise and from uncertainty.

Lynn: 9:46

I don't even know where to start. I knew hearing you read it would get me verklempt, because I think of, I think of all the people I know, including myself, who. Who allowed our obligations to cover up our dreams and, and then, you know, had have had to wrench our way free and, and in a way, that's why I love the name of my business, creative spirits unleashed, because the there's a leashing process that happens on this planet when we come in to live and to be part of our family. So how long ago did you write that?

Unknown: 10:32

I probably wrote that four or five years ago.

Lynn: 10:37

Wow. And when did the story happen that you were watching Bernie go, Oh, that was

Julia: 10:44

12 years ago. So

Lynn: 10:46

that was just as you were meeting him. I take it yes,

Unknown: 10:50

there was rumbling in my ground. I was feeling stuck in a place that needed a transition, but not one that I was going to know how to do anything with or take. I had, you know, what I would probably consider a beautiful life with a lot of good friends. But somewhere long ago, it wasn't really my path I was following. It was and and I'd known that for a very, very long time. I used to say in my 20s and 30s that I felt that I was on a set of train tracks running parallel to the ones that I was supposed to be on. So so that I always had images of a a path that had weeds growing all over it, like a very old railroad bed. I uh, but it was a happy life. I mean, it was a very, very good life. I was with a great friend who was supposed to be a great friend and not a husband, but we so and a really knit group of friends around it in New England, where I'd spent most of my childhood, in various states of New England, but always in that location. And I guess the reason I the part that's relation, I think, for everyone, is how sometimes you can feel in your life that if you try to move into something that feels more authentic to you, that you sometimes will block it just by the fact that you seem such a part of a bigger fabric, and just no idea how you tow yourself out of, out of a frat fabric, whether, I mean, whether It's leaving a job you've had for a long time and wondering the repercussions of everything you know, maybe you know feeding, still feeding your horse, or the schedule, or the fact that you don't really want to disrupt this company, but You feel you need change. So, I mean, it can apply to anything, anyone. And the funny thing is, I've read it to several women who are around the same age as you and I, and they they have a similar reaction to it. They somehow can really relate it like just to what you had just said when you spoke after I finished reading,

Lynn: 13:45

I think we I think we identify with it if we're willing to look and recognize that that longing I've heard I met an author again, it must be this age thing you start seeing the end. You know when you read, when you're past 50, you know what you're in the second half of life, pretty much. And she called it the the hole in the garden, and talked about the beautiful garden that was built for her. But it wasn't her garden. It was, it was that of the of the world, of her mother, of whoever wanted her to be in their fabric, if you will. And just to make some metaphors, but, but that there's like this secret hole in the garden wall, which is the place that we all long to be, which is we really are, that unique divine spark that only that, only we can bring. And, you know, hearing the way different people describe that, to me is it's, it's so uplifting, because it makes me realize I'm not alone. And you've all, you know, sort of, we're sort of all on this journey, like that parallel path you describe. And. We get those glimpses of it, and then it's like, how do we find our way there? So, you know, and it seems to me like you are now finding your way there. Oh, yeah,

Unknown: 15:12

I might not have stopped writing the book if I were where I am today, because I feel, yeah, I feel like I've hit the ending of it now. I feel now that I'm in resonance, complete joy harmony. Have found the authentic path, the one that was my childhood purpose. It's just all lines up again, and boy, that's just an amazing feeling when that all drops into place. And so I think the final chapter would be better written. Now it was originally the idea of the book was the unearthing process. And now it would be giving somebody be able to present the resolve. And the problem with the book before is there was not a resolve yet. It was gonna, it was gonna have to have been forced so I I could start it in authenticity to where I was, but I wouldn't have been able to end it there. Well,

Lynn: 16:21

you were in, you could almost hear when I when I heard you read the piece, that you're still in that tension of finding your way out of it, if you will. And you almost have to write in that place. I don't know about you, but my experience is, if I don't capture the moments while they're having happening later, it's very hard for me to capture. That's

Unknown: 16:41

right, yeah, yeah. So it's lucky that beginning was written then, but the end would have had to come five years to come

Lynn: 16:50

later. Like, it's not like my dancing the tightrope book I wrote. I wrote many of those stories as they were happening, and then I can look back on them now. And I was like, I could not have written them from the place I am now, because this thing that happens, I love the word, you just use resonance. There's this thing that happens on the other side of the uncertainty, the fear and so forth that you can look at that thing, that this looks so daunting from the other side, and you're like, Oh, it was an illusion bomb. Yeah.

Unknown: 17:22

And when I was back there five years ago, when I wanted to write the joyful, you know, ending in resonance, it was inauthentic because I wasn't there, yeah, and that's and then as soon as it felt inauthentic, I got too scared to write it like I didn't want to write it because I knew it wasn't, you know you're having trouble writing is because you haven't hit that. You know authenticity, what you really believe back up feels right. So I couldn't do it then,

Lynn: 17:49

yeah, and we could talk for days and days about finding and calibrating your nervous system to understand the difference between what truly feels right to you and what you've been told is supposed to feel right to you, you know, the signal versus the noise. But I would like to back up a little bit into a little bit about how you and I have have met, and what I've seen you do, because I think that puts some practical, tactical reality around what does it look like when Julia carpenter is living her authentic life with the horses we I'll just say we, we met through our work at rain rescue, which we talked about a little bit in the podcast with Bernie. And it comes up a lot in my podcast now, because I'm down there a lot say a little bit about the kind of work you do now with horses, and I'm going to give the headline you'd be for those. For those listening, it's not unusual to find Julia in a pasture with horses that she has got sleeping all around her because they feel so darn comfortable. So say a little bit about what you do that brings horses sort of into this amazing state of presence.

Unknown: 19:08

Yeah. Okay, so I have something I call the two step way, and it's two step way to how to be with and how to really see. So it's being and seeing, in this case, your horse. But I'm starting to think it's as large as life is those two things, how to be and how to see. And what I've learned with horses is they like us to be incredibly present and and so that is bringing making sure you check in with yourself and that you aren't having a lot of thoughts that keep the mind busy, that cause you your nervous system to pick up your whatever it is anxiety or or. So forth, and we're so busy these days living either in the past or the future, and we're rarely, rarely, rarely, just really present and that. And so I do a lot of inner work meditation when I'm with an animal. I'll make sure that I check in with me and the environment around me, and then I really make sure I'm very aware of myself, and then very aware of the being in front of me. And then it's in that seeing that the horse on such a micro level. It's an, it's a it's an amazing language, and a way to let another being feel comfortable and secure is to have them feel truly listened to. And that's in a very deep way. And I know a number of your guests talk about this stuff, certainly your conversation with Warwick, but it's, it's seeing these creatures on such a micro level, and then responding by by saying, I see you, and that's in a number of ways. So say, I'm walking across a pastor to a horse, and the horse picks its head up because it sees me coming. And I'll note the amount of energy or sympathetic tone that this horse has taken on. And that is really an orange orienting response from a horse to tell to say, how safe am I? Is they are a, you know, prey animal, so they'll say, how safe Am I with this novel creature approaching, and the moment I see that orienting with the head come up, I'll stop moment I see it, and then I'll watch very carefully, to see, is the tension starting to relax, or is the tension getting a little more? Is he looking a little more? If he's standing with another one, is another head coming up? Is there an increase in the amount of energy of worry? And if there's even a little I'll take a step or two back, and if there isn't, and they go back to eating, and I see a more relaxed posture coming on, I'll move farther into the space. And this causes a lot of curiosity in something like a horse. So if they start to notice that you are not an aggressor. And sometimes with the ones that I'm trying to give the upper hand, like the Wild Mustangs, when we first start approaching them, I'll actually back off a little and shrink and so that that gives them more energy for curiosity, and they'll come into my space more. And so that's kind of what I do. And then if you expand that to any situation somebody gives me with a horse, I will teach that person how to really observe the behavior and the language of no words oriented around an animal that thinks of house wanting to know questions of their security all the time, if that makes sense,

Lynn: 23:34

I've seen that many times, and I've seen you show that It it's easier said than done, I will say, because what I have found, notwithstanding years and years and years of meditation and lots of personal work on myself, is just how noisy my head still can be, and what it really takes to sort of drop all that noise. Because whether we think it's transparent or not, to being such as horses who speak in the language of energy, the language of nature, that that noise in our head creates some kind of vibration they can pick up, sure does.

Unknown: 24:16

Yeah, yeah. I'll give you another example that's fascinating. I just came back from this, just most amazing four days in Texas, learning level one, craniosacral, work with shea Stewart, who's also been on world, yeah and the it was an amazing group that already has a really fairly strong understanding of, you know, the the language of energy. And there was only seven students and Shay and her assistant, and so that energy went. We'd go to work with the horses was already amazing. And every day there was horses laying down and yawning and reacting. And on the last day, I had offered to take this one horse that was quite aggressive, and He's usually not used for it, and they had to change out a horse. And so the the day before, a woman had worked with him, and had to do all of the work, distance work, because he was quite reactive and kept trying to bite her. And so I took the horse, and he came into the ring with me and, and he, you know, sure enough, put his ears back and and threw his shoulder at me and and really postured in the in a way that the next thing is, you know, I'm going to bite you, and a very cold eye, lot of aggression movement for someone who's, you know, deals with that in work. And a lot there's, you know, just moments, what I usually like to do is take my hands up and put them out with the rope and just give a little shake of my energy back, but trying to get more involved in this. And of course, you know, I immediately picked up on the amount of jitters I had. And the first time I saw this kind of charge, he was, you know, offering. And so I doubled down on my focus. So sometimes I like to focus my eyes and keep my body very, very still as a way to make sure I have two senses that are working for me, and also a very much feeling of grounding on my feet. So I was doing my grounding things, but then I pictured I started to be able. So the first few times he went at me. I was I would take the rope in my hands, and then I said, No, I'm going to try to do this with my energy. And so I grounded myself, and then I pictured, I pictured my energy bubble blowing up around me. And so every time he would go to start to posture, and I got very good at recognizing the first micro change in his expression. When he was going to posture and I would blow up my energy bubble around me just with my mind. And damned if it didn't work, he felt it. He knew where the edge was, and pretty soon he softened. And then I have a little video of him. He laid down on the ground and went to sleep, and then in the end, he stood, I could stand right in his space, and he wasn't feeling like he was going to wow, attack me. But what I mean by that is I really get you. I mean that I was in the inside, shaking like a leaf, and I had to reground myself and find the energy within the authentic energy to just blow up my safety bubble around me. And it was an exercise in learning how to hold that Yeah, and we can work on that all the time. And the one that I find is just your pure I'm sure you felt this. Your pure meditation alone, without the horse, you get so much more grounded that whether it's a person yelling at you or a horse coming into your space, over time, you realize, Wow, I didn't my needle did not jump like it would have. And you start to realize that you become less, less, less less reactive and more centered and more calm, and that stillness, when you can find stillness and speak in the language of stillness, the animals, that's all they're looking for, too. The the posturing is just them in the same place. So I know that we're shared that energy, the energy that's causing the friction is the same is is shared energy. So we can, one of us, if we want to start, can dissipate it. We can bring it down, and then you change everybody. And that's, it's almost like getting the trust going, and then both can trust.

Lynn: 29:28

So it's, it sounds, in the way I think about it, it's like you were starting to speak his language, which is how more talk to each other, which is they, they all are very aware of each other's bubbles. Yes, yes. When you created a bubble that was familiar language to him, it's almost like going to a foreign country and all and all of a sudden they're speaking a language.

Unknown: 29:52

Oh, absolutely so true. And, and the thing that this five days, if that. Didn't deepen was how true that energy sharing and how you know our actual skin is really porous and everything is there's no true edges. And if we can start to realize that we have so much communication and control in our whole environment, it's just so lovely to find. And that's, that's, I think, what I love about my work more than anything is, is, is teaching people the universal language, and, and, and it's not the horse speak, you know, his ears are like this, and we, you know, step, it's not, it's not trying to copy a horse and Return, return it to them, so much as it is learning that Still, if in stillness and awareness, is, is, is a universal communication that we can get better and better at seeing and sharing.

Lynn: 31:09

Yeah, well, I'd like to call out a couple of things that I noticed that you didn't do in that story and in what you were doing was you didn't get mad at the horse, who didn't judge the horse, right? You didn't I, when I as I've been going through my learnings, I had this thing I used to call attack jacks, and it's jumping jacks, which are designed to create a bubble of energy, and that, that's the way that you can create a bubble of energy if you're not able to do it with your mind like you did. Is it, as a beginner for me, just jumping jacks, but when the horse was coming at me, I would come back at them. And implied in the coming back at them is the judgment, right? And the story there's something wrong with you horse that you are trying to write me and and you didn't also go into the other side. I think this is the tightrope on one side of it is the aggressive side. I'm going to be angry at you. I'm going to judge you. I'm going to think you're bad or you didn't go into the pity side, which is, oh, before horse, you poor baby, I'm okay. You're okay, right? You didn't put either one of those. You just energetically put up the force field that said, not coming in here and I see you. Yeah. And that is a very difficult balancing out humans. So no back and forth, don't we?

Unknown: 32:44

Yes, so there's a lot of points there, so just quickly even. So it wasn't so much not coming in here as this is the edges of me. This is me. You know, it was sort of like more blowing up the balloon. The thing I always tell my students, the people and clients, I guess, clients, not students, is be the horse's rock, not the rabbit hole. And by that, I mean just what you were saying so and particularly with the empathy side, where you were saying, Oh, poor horse. Because a lot of and a lot of us that want to heal and help horses, a lot of rescue service centers. They get a lot of, well, rescue centers get a lot of damaged horses. And this, I'm going to make a really important distinction of why the rescue you and I work at is so good, and there are others that don't feel have that same quality of feel to them, and thank God for all rescue centers, all rescue centers not making a judgment, but this is very important to rescue center. People don't lean in too much to the story of where the horse came from. Don't always be and this is so easy to do. Don't be sad for the horse. Listen, know where you know know this, know the story. But the trouble with that energy is it? It weakens them. It put too much of the energy on the past, the negative things that happened. What happens at rainn, a lot that I love is you barely ever hear the sad stories. What you're hearing is, you know, oh, they're, you know, they're, they're flourishing. This one, just learn. This. This one is brave enough to go through this door, this baby, you know, loud, the blanket on for the first time. It's all very, very forward, very positive, very moving towards health, wellness of mind and body. And so on the empathy side, we don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the painful story, the weakness, the anger, the you know, whatever that is, and then on the the other side. So where, where you feel an animal wanting to use aggression is to be reminded that it's only one form of what it's given to defend itself in life. And so you know that it's in a place of feeling that it needs to respond this way, React, React, the animal reacts. So what we have a choice to do when we we can find that stillness and groundedness is to take that moment and respond instead of react, and those differences are really important. So Oh, and for all horse people, and probably all people to people, people to any animal, if you can know that, that you know somebody coming at you in anger and you wanting to return in anger. That's two nervous systems that is picking one choice on a path of I need to react to this. But that energy is shared energy. So if one instead, could even at least just take the divorce the emotion from it, get the emotion out of there, and then respond in a way, maybe if they need to protect themselves or walk off or open the distance, but they need to, if they can find another way where they enter, they can bring that energy down. It's always, it's always the right, right,

Lynn: 37:20

yeah, well, that respond versus react distinction is huge, and one of the things I've learned on this journey is I call it first thought. Second thought. We almost always have first thought, which is the reaction, because our nervous systems kick in before we're in the driver's seat. It just, it's the that's why it's called the autonomic nervous system. It's an automatic nervous system, right? We go. And this is true with people as well. You know, with people to people interactions as well as people to animal interactions. But if we can recognize it for what it is, we can quickly then react, I mean, then respond. So we can come back and respond after if we if we've learned to interrupt it. And the thing I've also seen have had to overcome myself and and mostly I'm coaching in people environments, not horse environments, but recognizing that that first thought is not a mistake, it's just automatic. So don't get Don't be hard on yourself for not getting it right, right, right, not doing what you want. It's just quickly put yourself back in the driver's seat. Take the judgment out, take the anger out, and respond to what's occurring. And what I like is, if you had not with that particular horse been able to respond effectively. He could have hurt you because he was looking for a rock and he got a rabbit. Mm, hmm, yes. And so you, in a way, were a rock saying, I am here, and he knew better than to step in you, yeah, not out of anything from anger, but because you said I am here, and that was a form of being present that didn't involve sucking in or pushing out.

Unknown: 39:09

Yeah, and the other amazing thing is, it's really what he what he needed more, because it wasn't only a better response for me to take, but it was actually what he's seeking, because he's seeking security. So if I don't have a negative response and I send both our fighting energy up, and he's wanting to fight because he's, he's feeling that he needs to protect his himself. He's, that's, defensive behavior if I don't react like that. But I increase this beautiful bubble of I am a rock, and I'm still offering you this peace. This is why I'm standing there. Is I wanted to offer this horse peace. I wanted to work with him with cranial work, and I wanted to offer him peace. I. Yeah, and then he was able to find it, I mean, to find to lie down and take the rest that he needs, because he's not, you know. And obviously, a horse, you know, with a lot of others in arena, with a lot of people, unless they really need rest, is not going to lie down. But when that's the what he does, you know, that horse's nervous system is set too high always. So this is that rock plus offering peace is what that horse needs. And if he had that for a couple of weeks, he'd be a different creature.

Lynn: 40:36

Well, yeah, because horses need sleep, just like humans do. Yes, you can if he's lived on high alert, yeah, not getting effective sleep. Yeah, and we all know what happens to the brain when we don't get effective sleep, neurons don't fire correctly. See

Unknown: 40:50

it all the time in horses, yeah, they the what, especially in dysregulated herds, which means that they aren't operating well as a herd, so that all they can get a reading off the environment about their safety. You'll have more than one horse keeping watch. They'll all be very hyper vigilant and and you really sense that. And then horses that live alone, of course, don't get the sleep they need. Horses that have not been integrated and have not learned to regulate off other horses, they don't get proper sleep. So you see it. You see it a lot. You see it a lot.

Lynn: 41:30

Yeah, and then, and then what you see, like you said, is that dysregulated herd. It's not unlike dysregulated people. And what, what came to mind as you were describing your story about the horse, is something I saw in a business meeting one day where one of the attendees we were in, it was either New York City or Washington, DC, or some place like that, where I used to work a lot, and one of the critical members of a meeting we were going to have was rather Late, coming in, maybe 1520 minutes late because of some huge mess up on the commute. And so all of us in the meeting were sort of annoyed, but knew there wasn't anything she could do about it. But once she got in the meeting, we did what most humans do, which is, Let's get after it. You know, we've lost 20 minutes. Let's get to work and you know, because we're so very goal oriented around horses. And what was so interesting is, of course, I was very much one of the goal oriented, let's get let's get done here. And the woman who had sort of was over the whole meeting the client who had called it just paused when we when it was clear that the woman that had just come in was in the room in body, but not mine. Yeah, her mind was still on the disaster. She was fumbling with a briefcase and fumbling with a purse, and just still kind of coming in a little bit like a a little ball of chaos. And she did this beautiful move where she just acknowledged that. She said, this really got to you, didn't it? And it was done without pity. It was done without judgment. It was just an acknowledgement of what is yes. And what was so cool was to watch that as soon as that woman felt seen and heard all the chaos dropped off of her right? It was like flies falling off of Right. Or, you know, it was just bizarre how it just and then she was present in the room because someone else was present with what is, no judgment, no anger, no pity, just what

Unknown: 43:42

is nailed it, yes, and I've

Lynn: 43:46

never forgotten it, because I wondered for you, for you know, at the moment, I was like, wow, that was a very interesting not one I would had my repertoire at the time, but, but clearly effective. And as I've learned a lot from you and learned with the work we're doing at rain and watching us acknowledge with a horse what is right, well, at the same time again, recognizing that they may be keeping us from our goal, right, what is is, and the sooner you acknowledge it, the sooner you're back in harmony. And that slow road is actually the fast road to the goal bingo,

Unknown: 44:24

because you know it. I don't know if you saw this recently, and I don't know how many of your guests are, cross over to Warwick. And Warwick, Warwick Schiller's work, but Warwick just recently had a post on non doing. And he was talking about, you know, how standing in a ring arena with a horse and the owner of the horse, he said, he likes to, you know, talk to the crowds and everything in an arena. Well, the person comes in with the the owner of the horse comes in with a. Horse that's got some kind of problem going on in there. You know, he lets them walk, try to walk their horse around. And the horse is, of course, digging. And, you know, there's a lot of eyes on the horse, and a lot of, you know, these poor animals are just picking up on on everybody, all these eyes. It must feel very predator, like staring down into the arena. And of course, the horse is dancing and feeling his nervous system and the owner in the way. And could be incredibly kind, because probably everybody that puts something on Warwick is really, you know, after all, would love to get along better with their horse. So they're in all the ways they know. They're trying to control the horse, with the rope with a little bit of stroking, a little bit of jiggling, maybe moment of backing. And this, that and the other thing. Oh, we'll walk a circle. Walk another circle. Well, then they hand off the horse to Warwick, and he immediately lets a huge amount of slack in his rope. Just let's go stands with the horse. Horse goes to the end of the line. He redirects it with he likes to use a flag, I would just hold the rope, because that will be enough of a change. So the horse hits the end of the rope and turns. And then Warwick just watches, just like just acknowledges. And what he's really doing is he's truly seeing that horse. So he's seeing, you know, the amount of tension and the amount of startle and the amount of what the horse is taking in, and he's understanding another being sitting there, and he's, you know, he's, he's feeling the vibrations and the nerves and then, but then, but then, as we all know, you know, work is studied presence, and he and he, and he's checked in with himself, and he's the rock. He's not going down. Oh, you know, this horse is standing here with all these people staring at it. He's not doing that. He's not saying, Well, I must, you know, I need to do something to control the horse. He's doing absolutely nothing, but going back to being the rock and having done what you just said, this acknowledgement, right, acknowledgement that you the woman with the, you know, the purse flinging around and stole her mind in the subway and feeling rushed and to acknowledge That woman that's, you know, calmly, didn't, didn't let go of her anger that the meeting was starting late, and that everybody must be, you know, just kind of in a different let go of all that says to the woman boy that that really got to you, I see you. That's that same, I see you. And then went right back to just being okay with everything. Those are the key. Those are the keys. And what you just said, that you noted happened in that meeting, is exactly what people need to do. When a horse is high, we want to so much control it. You know, it's a big animal. Get a hold of the end of the rope. The way you really help is that full acknowledgement. So that energy, that that dysregulated feeling that the other being is hanging onto can be fully let go of, and then the energy can return back towards that centered rock.

Lynn: 48:25

Yeah, it helps them find you. Called it finding peace. But it's it's saying everything is okay, not by placating, by being yes and acknowledging it is there. I see that, yeah, and in today's society, especially if you go through social media, you know, there's this term that I still hadn't I saw the movie gaslighting, but I didn't understand the term for a long time. But it's that, it's that incongruity that says you're not seeing what I'm seeing in front of my eyes. And you know, in the movie, the light is dimming, and she says to her husband, the light is dimming. He goes, No, it's not. It's all in your mind. It's all in your head. And yet I'm experiencing this thing. And to me, a horse has to feel sort of the incongruity of us when we say every all the time, yeah, when they can say, No, it's not, because over there is this and over there is that. I went to the barn the other day, and it was, it was fascinating to see how we brought the horse back, but it was a reining horse that I ride regularly, really steady, Eddie. But on this particular day, they were moving hay on a tractor down the aisle where we normally walk. So we were following that. Then that the mowing was going on, and the mowing seemed to be wherever we were. That's where the mower was. And then we got to the end of the arena, and there was a, I thought it was birds, but there was this squealing happening. We later discovered a pig in the pen at the end of the arena, that's just outside the other arena was stuck, and this horse was not going to accept. Yeah, the answer, everything's fine. I could have applied to him all day long, but he's like, No, I am seeing these things, right? And exactly amazing what happened as we acknowledged what was going on and and again, that didn't tell him he didn't have to to work or, you know, right? Or whatever, but it was like, and I hear you, I see it, yeah, yeah. It's, yes, amazing, and, and from the truth is, where you get the trust,

Unknown: 50:29

right? And the other thing there for a rider is very difficult, is that you're on this horse, and you're feeling the energy through his body, and he's big, and he can, and he likes to, you know, run from things, and you're going to be able to, you know, want to stay with him. Oh,

Lynn: 50:45

yeah, he made some amazing cutting books, by the way. And he makes amazing

Unknown: 50:52

stay with him. But you and you can't lie about where your nervous system is no so that's one incongruity that horses pick up on strongly and the riders don't realize, because they're trying to say with their mind or their hand or their reign, it's okay, and they're, you know, yanking and pushing or the stroking padding, but it's got or the even just where their seat hits the saddle, so they might as well not try. The real message is coming through, because you're electric under there, and how you want to react too, right? You're you're like, you don't have to have the same reasons for the fear as the horse does, but that fear is amplified through the two of your system, so there's so much energy there that's right, and so that's why it's so good to work on your meditation skills out of the saddle as well. But to even remember some of the tricks that you have is throw yourself back into the body, so it will be one of your senses, like feel skin on skin, listen for the birds. I mean, these are funny moments to do that. But pick a spot, pick a spot, or on the ground or down the arena to stare at for a minute and orient your body there. But you have to do these things to get your you have to get authentically to your body first. So you have, because you're not going to get the message to the horse. You know, to do anything different until you you can be some even if it's a little pebble instead of a great big rock, but you have to start to try to find a way to say to your it's almost like you're with two horses. Okay? Because your nervous system is just like another horse. It is free from your until you get a hold of your mind. That's your reign on your nervous system, and the only way that you can do that is get your mind to be in the present moment. Because in the present moment, nothing, until you hit the ground, is actually really happening. Nothing, nothing is happening. So if you can bring your body back, it will convince your nervous system you can come down in the nervous system, the animal, which is a neuroceptor, will feel your nervous system, and then you can start to hold space. But you have to. When you're on horseback, you've already matched their listening. You're already there with them. If you, if you're on the ground, you match where they are to make sure that they see that you're fully with them. So that would be why. I mean by matching is it's the firing of your mirror neurons. So for us to look at a horse and just ask yourself intellectually, well, you know, this is a way to start how much tension is in this horse's body. He has a worried expression on his face, I see that his tail is rather rigid. So when, when you do these things, you're feeding that your conscious brain is looking the horse over, and you're picking up information for the brain. But what is happening underneath that is your mirror neurons, are these little cells that will respond. They'll they ignite whether you're actually doing an action or just seeing an action. So the example that everybody has is if you have two rats in a cage, and you shock one of the rats, the other one will jump too. It's because they there. You can these are these neurons that allow you empathy. And when that one sees that he actually feels the feels the jolt, because he's picking up on it. So if, if we are looking at another creature, and with our eyes, we start to fire those and we pick up on their. State. So it's like, it's the way that that language can be commuted, communicated between our two nervous systems. So once you've said, Oh, I see, you know, I see where you are, and then I go back to concentrate on me bring the rock. But so when you're in the saddle, you already, obviously you're touching, you know, you guys are right together in your nervous system. So you can just, if you can anchor yours for a second, pay attention to the animal. You can, you can, you can help get yourselves out of those situations.

Lynn: 55:33

Yeah, it ended up being one of the best rides I've ever had. Wonderful. Yeah, it did help that one of the women realized what was going on, where we had several riders, and she went in and took care of the pig, so the squealing went away. Yeah, horses aren't huge fans of pigs sometimes. Yeah. And this horse, by the way, I forgot to mention it has one eye, so yeah, the shock, the shying away, was always happening on, you know, from blindside to the seeing side and but what, what was so critical to me in that story was the ability for me to stay present but not lie to him that there was nothing going on, right? They're mowing the hay. Guy is going the pig, right? And we're going to continue like being present in this moment. And when I go back to the journey I've had, I mean, that would have been just a house of horrors for me. Yeah, yeah, years ago, and I would not have been on that horse. There would not have been a great ride, right? Wouldn't have been anything. There would have been me going back to the bar and going, well, this is not the day I'm going to Yes, yes. But because of what I've learned with you and with working with a variety of people over the time, my story is well known out there because of those things I've learned, it doesn't ruin the day, and that's what I feel like. Is the big takeaway, whether you're working with horses or working with people, is there's a lot going on in the world that requires us to acknowledge it. The the stuff is going to happen. There's not, there's not an insulated world that says I can get everything done because the waters are calm. The waters are not calm. No, they're never going to be calm. No. And so how do we sort of sail or surf, or whatever your metaphor is, those rough waters, and do it in a way that's real. And I think that's what I love about your work the most, is it's very real. You know, it's acknowledging, and it's, it's being that kind of steady state in that rough of water, I think is so huge, like that horse, the story just telling about that horse, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure he was grateful for it as well. I

Unknown: 57:40

think so, yeah, I really think so. I think so. And I think, I don't think anybody likes going through life having to be that, you know, defensive. And if you could feel more comfortable that you didn't have to do that, it would feel nice.

Lynn: 58:00

It would feel nice. Well, so, so when, when you think about, I want to go back to what we started with, when you like that passage and of where you were, and you were sort of talking about that freedom that we have as seven year olds. And I it's not uncommon for me to ask, by the way, when I'm working with clients that are sort of trying to figure out either their second half or where they've gone off their path, you know how to get back on their path? It is not uncommon for me to say, what did you love to do when you were seven? Seems to be the most important age, because that's age at which we get, sort of our socialization is kind of complete, as one of my co teachers, once of a self awareness program once said, you can take almost any seven or eight year old and drop them in the world and they know how to figure out how to be in the Yeah, yeah, develop those skills. But the question I often say is, what did it What was it that you wanted to be well, yeah, look at where you are now. Where is it that what? What is it that you most want to have people know about being here now? And where are you hoping to take this knowledge that you're gaining? And it's really not knowledge, it's wisdom.

Unknown: 59:22

Okay, so I absolutely love this question, and I think I'm going to start it further back, because I thought you were going to ask me, and I was getting so excited that question. Then when I what I wanted to what I wanted to do or be, when I was seven, was a cross between Pippy long stockings and Dr Doolittle.

Lynn: 59:47

Oh my gosh, you really are that now I know it. Gosh, when you say those two things, I'm like, you could not be more those two things. I know it. So

Unknown: 59:57

that's how I know I got on my authentic path. But I was off of it, and now I'm back on it, and it makes me laugh so hard when I thought back and realize that

Lynn: 1:00:11

that is so accurate. Because you you know, what's interesting is watching you'd be Dr Doolittle speaking with the animals. I, you know, I've done some animal communication myself and worked with animal communicators. Anna 20, who's a really, has been on this podcast and and Anna, the way she gets communications is just so vivid, and it's almost like a conversation. But that doesn't mean that's how all of us get animal and watching you be Dr Doolittle, I'm curious, how do you get communication, because I totally see you getting it.

Unknown: 1:00:49

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. And sometimes I think it's really just in that language that I'm trying to teach others right now. It's, it's, you find it in that stillness and in that awareness, and you, yeah, it's, it's, it feels not very complicated beyond those two things. It's becoming very still and very aware and very open. So not that Rick Rubin, that he has a quote Rick Rubin in his book, the creative act. Well, I love that book has a quote about sustaining disbelief as part of his description of listening. And I think that's hugely important. So you may not know why you know something or but it came into your mind so quick, you know, you didn't use your thinking brain. And then I would go with it, whether it's an image or a thought or not a knowing, like this horse doesn't like that or he needs this next. It won't really be words. It won't be an image. Sometimes it is, but it's just in the being open, and if it comes without a lot of pause, and isn't it there? It's there for a reason, you know? And so I really think that my answer would be it's in stillness and awareness. Those are, those are the keys for me. But it I feel very confident that I know who an animal is. And that I am having a communication with them when I work with

Lynn: 1:02:52

them. The thing for me that's remarkable, as I've been on this journey, is how individual each horse is, oh, gosh, yes. And I, as a young person, didn't ever get that knowledge, like I saw them all as kind of the same, yeah. I remember asking somebody, you know, something, she said, something about the horse listening to her. Something I said, How can you tell when a horse is listening to you like it didn't even dawn on me? Yeah, I'm rarest to say. And now, for example, I think about the horses we have at rain, and how each one of them, right, is just this unique individual and have different needs. And sometimes i i especially will notice the horses that we don't pay as much attention to because they're they're not on the front burner. You know, a lot of rescue horses, and some are on the front burner, particularly right now, the Mustangs, as we get to the Mustang classic, and some of the other horses, I swear they're saying to me, why do I not get that kind of attention? How do I get in the yes,

Unknown: 1:04:06

do, that's what I but that's what I mean. If you pick up on that so strongly, it's, it's, it's a true communication. And they are, but you don't go down the rabbit hole. Their time will come. You know, that's exactly

Lynn: 1:04:18

right, right? And actually, what I usually will say is, you know, I'm paying attention to you right now. Do you not notice I was broken your neck? Yeah, yeah, no. And then it's almost like, they're like, Oh yeah, okay, I got it, yeah.

Unknown: 1:04:32

So, so that's interesting, because when I was little, like seven, I remember getting to a point, maybe seven, eight or starting to get amazed that people didn't see that, didn't see that they had so much personality, and didn't see that animals have so much personality, and it's. And each one is such an individual, and I think that's my true purpose in life, and always has been, is to be that liaison between the animal world and the human world for that exact purpose, everything I've studied, everything I've done, has kind of aligned with that. And when I was in maybe when I just finished college, I started painting. I've always loved to draw animals, but I started painting animals and presenting their stories with paintings. A lot of more true animals that had done amazing things and stuff. And I would put up these, I had these art exhibitions that were it was called considering animals, and it was to help people see that see. And so my work, in whatever way I've been doing it, is always in my outlook on life, and being with animals or presenting them to people has always been with that purpose in mind is to have people understand so how clearly that there's somebody inside. It didn't matter what this skull looks like, you know, there's, there's an individual in there, yeah,

Lynn: 1:06:26

wow. Well, and that, one of the confusing things is that individual, because they are talking, if you will, they communicating is a better, better word. They're doing it more energetically than they are vocally that, that, you know, humans can be animated, and you can see two people sitting, if you somebody watched our, you know, zoom right now where we're having, you know, you can kind of see the animation, and we're engaging with each other this way, but, but if you pay attention, horses engage with with each other without making eye contact with each other, And without nodding their heads, and without, you know, walking along, holding hands or whatever there's it's a more invisible style of communication. And so that means having to learn to play in the unseen world.

Unknown: 1:07:12

Yes, and and, amazingly enough, the more time you really micro observe and make sure you're very present, so that it's, you know, being unfiltered through, not really using your, you know, neural cortex so much, but just kind of being in the presence and awareness of animals with an open mind, you'd be amazed how Much of that communication you'll feel too like, you know, the affection even amongst them. While I was working on this craniosacral work, that first day, I had this horse of so sore, absolutely everywhere, sore, everywhere in its body. And it had, there was another old horse being worked on, and he he looked like he wasn't quite as sore, but they were all the horses were out, and this little horse that I was working on, the halter didn't fit properly, and I could almost feel migraine on this horse, and had big stains from where it just had constant diarrhea In the back and kept shifting because there was pain and, you know, more than one leg. And so I had taken the halter off and just put it on the thicker part of the neck so it wasn't where all the nerves were in the face while I was working on her. And so she she kept kind of taking this step and then another step slowly, and then hanging out in another step, another step slowly, and she wanted to creep up right next to this other old horse. And somewhere in there, I just got this communication. Is she said, I'm in love with him, and that's the only horse that makes me feel better. And so she wanted to have recession right there. And as soon as I allowed her to stand there, just dropped into this just most beautiful relaxation and and the other horse responded by also. His head dropped too. And I just felt it so strongly. And I didn't work with her on the last day, but I saw her doing the same thing, trying to migrate away over next to this one, to share that feeling right there with that horse, but it just becomes so clear and so grounded, and you just, you know, it even causes a little chuckle of real humor. So, you know, you know, you just know it it's you just know it's real. You just feel it is yes,

Lynn: 1:09:36

you know, when I was hosing down the horse, I was telling you about the day we had the pig event. There was this moment with him that was pure. I don't know if it was gratitude or affection or what, but, but there was this connection between the two of us, sort of like, thank you. It was like he it was just such a palpable thing, not necessarily visible, but it was so strong. Him. I finished, you know, hosing him off and get ready to go back to his buddies. And this is the horse. He's amazing. When I go take him out of the pasture where he is with his with his buddies, he just, like, walks out from them and sticks his head in the halter. I literally just sticks his nose in, yeah, you know, and is like, I just said, you want to go play. And he comes over, I've never issued because, guess where I learned how to do that with you? And he was obviously, you know, already there to some extent. But those moments that pass through, and then you can just really see them for who they are, that they they care for each other, they care for us. You know, there's a

Unknown: 1:10:42

character, yes, yeah, yeah,

Lynn: 1:10:45

yeah. So I when I was reading your bio, of course, I met you through rain, and so I haven't heard much about your history, but I was looking that you have worked with all kinds of horses, like everything from Hunter jumpers and so forth to race horses. And I would love to hear how your work, or how you worked with those kind of horses, especially the race horses in the past. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:11:04

it was so much more traditionally. So I had, when I was in college, in the summers, I would go work at the track, so I had done some galloping of horses, and my father actually had a couple of race horses, and we had a trainer, so I got my assistant trainer's license working with those horses. Yeah, so galloping race horses, my dad was a polo player, so I was at the polo field as a little little kid, and had this little racket going, I got a whole bunch of other little kids, and I would assign them to various polo players, and they would walk the ponies in between the Chuckers to help cool off the horses. So I, you know, and I would help my dad train polo ponies. And then later on, I trained polo ponies for other people, because, you know, I had just grown up doing it. Then my father was master of fox hounds, so I grew up working with the hounds. And when we went down and worked, we moved to down to Massachusetts, I became a staff member of the hunt and took the hounds out. So yeah, a lot of a lot of different disciplines in the horse world. I think I was always kind to horses, but, you know, I didn't question some of the things that we had learned that were just sort of traditional. And I have a really different outlook on all of it now, you know, it's it just evolves, evolves what you know. Well,

Lynn: 1:12:56

you you went with what you knew at the time. Yeah, yeah. Was there a life defining moment for you, where you said, the way I am I have done things is not the way I want to do them in the future.

Unknown: 1:13:09

Or was it more Yes, yes and yes and no, yes and no, I You can always tell that I've loved animals since I was seven, and was connected with them. So there was no, never any harshness. But I think what kind of, what really woke me up was, I mean, and so, so I would say this is sort of, you know, a far end of the spectrum, you know, like a, like a subtle shift, but feels huge in my mind and like my orientation around it and what it, you know. So what happened is, I so I had a mother that, you know, she didn't, she didn't mind my riding. And, you know, I grew up in a in a family that we grew up on a horse farm, but she, she was much more wanting me to go to college and be she was, she was really very concerned socially, which I never have been my life. She was kind of wanting to, she had this kind of a Jackie O image, really hard for me to and I'm this, like little tomboy that loves horses, and, you know, doesn't want to be anybody special, and would love to, you know, have nobody kind of assess a background on me of any kind. And my mother wanted me to go to finishing school in Switzerland, and, you know, wanted me to speak French and Italian and live in Europe and whatever, whatever. So she and she was the strongest member of our family in the sense that she was. You know, she had agendas for everybody. And so when I was 16, she wanted me to go over to France and study in France, so I would be fluent in French. And so I was shipped off. And while I was there, she got sick, and she ended up having really bad cancer that eventually got in her spine and and so I came home for her death. I actually was we were also never supposed to get sick, so I was not made aware that of her whole cancer journey, and was just told by one of my two brothers, who had also not known until she was about to die. And I got a message saying, if you want to see your mother alive, you better get home. So I just packed my bags from a year in France and came home and spent about two days there before she died. And so after she died, I kind of, for a very long time, because she'd had a really strong personality, wanted to please her, and tried to figure out, you know, what it was going to do next, because I was just about to get out of high school, and so I I thought, well, I better go to college, and you know, and I was always trying to find a career, but I just didn't. I just did not like sitting at a desk. I really liked working with animals, but I tried to work with animals from a point of academia, because I thought that at least would sit better with her. So I I worked in the wild, wildlife research field and internationally. And then, you know, it just, that's why it was the path next door and and, you know, I did well. I got papers published in in that but it just Yeah, it's not the same to me. And so I'd kind of through through college, and it was sort of urban. I ended up, oh, and my dad got remarried, and when his my stepmother really didn't want me around the barn. So I ended up, at first I boarded a horse, and then I just decided I better not have a horse right now. And so I got out of horses, which was really weird for me. And so when I was turning 40, I was like, Nope, I can't be without a horse anymore. And so well that my husband, at the time, was in Alaska climbing, and one night he called up and and I said, Guess what? He said, What? And I said, I bought a horse. So I bought, I bought a horse. And since I had trained horses all my life, up until then, I didn't think of anything of getting a young one, and I was just going to train it up and sell it as a as a hunt, a fox hunting horse, and but this horse that I ended up getting, she was four years old, and she was Frisian and Percheron, and she had some health. She had some nerve damage to her back that we did not understand at the time, and when she was young, once, she acted silly and she jumped up in the air, and she didn't land on her feet, which is odd most horses can and she landed, flipped on her side, and I had gone up with her and came down, and my arms were the first thing to hit the ground With both me, the weight of me and the horse and I, I destroyed one of my I, like, unhitched ulnar nerve, and tore the epicondyla out of one of my arms. And so that, that flip really changed things for me, because I that was the first time I'd had to have a lot of operations on an arm around something that a horse had caused. And I never in my entire life been scared riding. And all of a sudden I had some fear riding. And it, it, it, it was something I had to work back through and so fast forward to move down here. Got another horse out of the kill pen, and he was spooky crazy, and I just couldn't find the same center I used to have. And so I had to go on a bit of my own journey to re figure out fear, because I, you know, I know it sets horses off, and that's how I got into meditation and the whole other side of things. Well. Then I had a little horse, after I kind of got myself straightened out, who was a rescue of the state of Georgia, and he taught me the rest of I couldn't he was just locked in fear, frozen in fear, and I could see the trauma in him. And I started studying somatic sensing and trauma in humans, because I couldn't find it in the literature of horses stuff. And now I'm connected, and I realize a lot of people were on their own journey in the same direction, as Warwick says, as so many say, it's one horse that led you on this path of discovery, and I still have my discovery horse, and yeah, they that's amazing. And so healing him and healing myself put me on this journey, I think, where of where I am today. And that was the big switch, where it became more more clear about the nervous system, polyvagal theory, you know, all of that, but then also the more, the more fascinating side of of stillness in this, what that communication I used to have as a seven year old was, and now how you get it back as an adult? Because I think you do lose it when all the, you know, the training comes on to us, and we become less the animal we live, closer to being like animals. When we're, we're kids with these fresh minds, and then we're, we're taught to name everything and to name emotions and to act a certain way and to, you know, animals don't talk. And we're, we learn all these things that these divisions and these boundaries, and then we have to, sort of like Picasso did with his artwork, you you learn it, to unlearn it, and then, and then you go into a place where you learn it on a on a deeper level, or you can connect it to what you knew as a kid,

Lynn: 1:22:01

yeah, well, and I'm hearing there was almost like three life defining moments, because one is you lived without horses, and that that's pretty defining when you realize I have to have them in my life. Then you had the life defining fall. And I think a lot of horse people have had some kind of moment where that was, and then you had the horse that showed you everything by being totally frozen in fear. And it was like, you know, I find it interesting when I look at different things that happened in my life, how multiple things will conspire to reach a certain point. We're starting the process of building a house over on mystic waters. And a lot of people have asked us, What was the life defining moment, you know? What was the decision point? And when I look at it, it's like, oh, there's been 10 years of them. Mm, hmm, right. And any one of them could have been the moment. Yeah, right, but, but, but there's, it's almost like, when you make the final call, it's like, what was the most obvious thing in the world, right? But it wasn't that in each given moment, there was a stack of them happening, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I hear you had a stack of them happening, so there were a lot of moments,

Unknown: 1:23:28

yeah. Well, I guess the the biggest, the biggest one for me was when I haven't even named I was living between here and there. So when Bernie and I became a couple, he was down in North Carolina, and I was still in Massachusetts, and I had a farm of my own, and he has his farm here. And for a while, you know, I would try to keep my farm, and then I would drive back down here, and I had an old dog at the time, and it's the only thing left on my farm, because I de farmed it, and it's this lovely place on the salt marsh in Essex, Massachusetts, and just beautiful, one of those properties that you're just Like, just the spot licking out the sunsets and everything, you'd think this is a once in a lifetime opportunity just to be in a spot like this, just gorgeous and and I loved it dearly. But that sort of going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, is you feel like you drop into one life for a little while, and then you drop into another life for a little while, and then one day Bernie was in think he was on his trip. Oh, it wasn't. Yeah, no, yeah, it was his trip across the country, the one he wrote the book about. And I was sitting, it was a beautiful sunset evening, and looking out at the water, and I was wearing Bernie's, one of Bernie's hats, and I started hearing this voice just saying, just let go. Just let go. And it meant that I needed to let go, of trying to hold on to everything and and to sort of just jump in and join into this one life, to this one channel. And it was such a defining evening, because after that, I was able, the next morning, I called a realtor, started going to empty this place out, and I was ready to put it on the market. Wow. And I did. And when, when the we went to move out and I moved. I moved from a whole farmhouse, a whole farm, into Bernie's little cabin, which is 400 square feet. I love it, but small. It's tiny. I took nothing, so I gave all of my stuff away, my family, antiques, everything, everything. Just gave everything away. And when I left, we had the smallest of U hauls trailers, and I had one painting that had hung in my house since I've been a child, and my bicycle, my kayak and my books and nothing else in it. We didn't even fill it. It was the smallest U haul and we came down here, and I have never regretted it since. And when I gave the key over, Bernie cried, but I was, I was just completely ready. You know, it's a lovely memory, but I it was such a when you say moments, because that was absolute, definite, I'm ready to go like it just and

Lynn: 1:27:00

you're glowing. People who are listening can't see what I can see, but I'm seeing the zoom, and it's like, it's on your face. You're absolutely radiant, talking about that moment.

Unknown: 1:27:10

And yeah, because it was so completely right, because it allowed, sometimes we hold on to old stuff for protection, but you need to push out to the center of the, you know, just out into the pool and leave it. And it is, it allowed me to finish that transition, where, again, I've been able to come back to Pippi long stockings and, you know, and Mr. Doolittle, yeah. So that was perfect for me. It really was amazing.

Lynn: 1:27:45

Now, you mentioned Bernie, and of course, he was for the listeners who are listening will have heard him on the podcast immediately before this one. And I would be remiss if I don't ask, what is it like to be on the other side of someone who takes off across the country with Two Mules. And that's not the only time he's done it, but we'll talk about the two mules to triumph story, which he wrote the book about, and I thought about you a lot as I was reading that book and and you know the moments where my husband has been on long travels, you know, been across, you know, he's been where he was out of communication for a while. What was it like to see that and to be on the other side of that, especially knowing that maybe these two mules were not always like the most, like well behaved. Stay off

Unknown: 1:28:41

the road mule, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so I would say the good thing is, when I met Bernie, I met him in the capacity of that he was the traveler that he is, and that he you know, when Bernie and I found each other, I had answered a ad for he was selling a mule that had walked across America. And so I wrote him and said he was looking for a home for this mule or for someone to to buy it, and then he was selling the pony too. They had been when he came back from his trip. They had been living at a 80 year old lady's pony farm, but she was getting too old to take care of them, and she told Bernie they had to get gone. And so he was looking for the next solution for them. And he unproudly decided that he would try to sell them because he was taking care of his ill parents and he had no home of his own, and he just kind of thought no place to do this. And so he put an ad and a horse online thing for these two animals. And. Am, and I saw, I said, Who would walk across the country with their animals and then just put them up for sale? And even, what seemed even worse to me is he put them up for sale and not together after they'd done that. And he said the moment, he was not entirely proud, but anyway, so I wrote him and said, Look, if you know, if you want to give me your animals, I will promise you that they will never be separated from each other. They can live out their lives on my farm. And I sent him pictures of it, and I showed him the kind of care I took of animals, and I showed him my own animals, and my friends laughed, and they said, You'll never hear from that guy. And so about two or three weeks later, I'd forgotten about it. I got an email, and he would said, I'm in Tasmania. He was riding his bicycle across Tasmania, and he said, I'm in an internet cafe. I should be home in another month, and when I get home, I think that would work well. So he decided, because he did want him to stay together. So so he he and I made a deal, and when he came back, we talked, and he decided he was going to send his animals up to live with me. So that's how I met him. Is through these animals that have walked across America. I love this. I love and so I already knew. So I read his book. I knew that the that, I mean, mostly, I read his book to figure out what, you know, who I was receiving as these two animals. And then, you know, the mule was not easy. He had PTSD was worse than the one that said it was more, more of a crazy mule than the one he took next. But anyway, he and I would have to correspond about, oh, well, the mule really doesn't like to have its feet trimmed and so forth. So he would tell me how to tie it in a knot like a pretzel. And I'd say, No, I'm not going to do that. And then I'd figure out my own way to to get the animal to have it let me work on its feet and have them worked on and anyway, we stayed in touch. And then he was heading off to Newfoundland with his with a mule that we still have named Paulie. And so when they came through, they visited. And that's the start of the story that I read this morning. That contraption that came through was burning on his way up to Newfoundland. And so they stopped and visited with us and our animals, and he saw his he's got to visit woody Maggie, who had been on his first trip. And so then he went off on his travels. And so the whole time I had known Bernie, or my getting to know Bernie, and as Bernie became a friend, he was already a traveler. And so I knew that that's, you know, what one would be in for. And then for me, I am really like my time by myself at times, so that doesn't bother me so much. But the trip that was a little rocky for us was the one when he he sailed as a crew on a on a little wooden boat that was going down to South Georgia, which is off Antarctica, and would just write an emails things like, the only reason you wear a life jacket down here is so they can find The body in the water. Great, that didn't so that didn't help much. But then, then when they were in and and Bernie, likes the old school travel where you aren't really reachable, you know, like he just really, I think cell phones have felt to him a little bit of a and all the spot satellite like, I think when he he goes off, he likes the idea that you're just you're just gone, that you have to rely on yourself and the adventure and everything, I think, having done most of his trips without a spouse, and I think that's why He didn't get to marry till he was over 50, is because it's really hard to find and maintain a relationship if you do things like that, and even from that tension of just the other person's going to have reactions to, you know, you being lost or missing or anything, or, you know, the fact that you know, if something happens to Bernie, with the animals I'm responsible for getting off to, you know, Ohio or Nevada, or wherever the crash is, and finding picking up whatever pieces are left, and having. To do something with that. Those kinds of things didn't used to go along with you when you're single, right? So you could just kind of go and nobody's, you know, he wouldn't have people that would necessarily worry about him. And so when they were on that boat in Antarctica, they got blown into a rock in a gale, and it punched a hole in the boat, and they had to illegally haul up right next to Shackleton's grave in South Georgia and go digging around in the old whaling scrap yard and find a piece of copper and some nails to tingle a patch onto the boat, and then they sailed it with just a tingled patch 3000 miles to South Africa. From there, holy moly. And that made me nervous. I ended up, you know, finding his satellite, found the his positioning off of some kind of, there's something that takes positions on all the boats. And so the ones that aren't registered, though, are just appear to be the yachts that are not numbered. And since he's was a very little boat, and there isn't much traffic down there, and knowing where he might be in that crossing, I could kind of maybe tell which boat it would be. But that wasn't really fun. I gotta say, that wasn't joyful

Lynn: 1:36:42

statement to know that somebody's gonna settle a very long way over rough seas on a boat with a hole in it. That's barely Yeah.

Unknown: 1:36:50

That was not very that was the least joyful of all of that. And then with the other trip, I would just be busy doing my stuff, and just confident he would pop up again. And the more you know Bernie, and the more he pops up again, the more faith you have in that, that he will just pop up again. Well,

Lynn: 1:37:12

he does have this he does have this time. I think of getting back, but I know, you know, when I read two mules to triumph, and there were a few moments where you had to meet up with him, you would have mailed something ahead of time with the cool little drawings on the boxes away, yes, yeah, you know, this is for the mule guy coming into this town. Yeah, that's right, you know, then knowing that he was there, like when you got there and you found him, you know, just knowing the way I am, I've been a nervous wreck. Did he make it there? Did he decide to go somewhere else, did his back up. And, you know, he's lost out there somewhere, all those kind of questions which would be objections of my own fears and for myself, but still would have been made it hard. So I was curious how it was to be on the other side of that.

Unknown: 1:37:55

Yeah. I mean, I think over time, over time has gotten better, and over time, I think he's been a real teacher for me, because he is so unfocused on what might happen. I mean, just isn't, doesn't enter his brain. It's just a whole different wiring. I mean, sometimes it's amusing. You'll like watch all the animals escape through an open gate or something like that. But neurotic me when, no, that's gonna happen. No, he

Lynn: 1:38:29

does not pretend like he's like, I'll deal with what's happening. I'm not gonna make something new happen with my brain. Oh, whatever comes out.

Unknown: 1:38:36

So he's, he's, he's very good for me. He's good, yeah, he's very

Lynn: 1:38:41

well. It's fascinating because he expressed the same thing that you just said, you guys have taught each other a lot. And I think he he expressed that you had taught him a lot, you know, in his working with his mules and horses and so forth. And as we wrap and sort of start bringing this particular journey together home. I'd be curious. What is it that you would like for people who deal with animals of all kinds, what would you most want them to learn and know as they go forward on their journey with their animals?

Unknown: 1:39:19

Yeah, I think it's I think it's really seeing that there's a being inside of there that is trying to communicate something always to you, whether it's that shy look they get when they tilt slightly away from you. That's just saying too much pressure. Slow down, just a moment, just the littlest pause, the more you can see that and the reaction back from it, the more you're going to realize that it's a two way communication street that you have this huge. A opportunity to delve into it's funny.

Lynn: 1:40:04

You've taught me that, especially that head moving away. And what I have just been blown away with is I never keep chasing the horse anymore. After that, there was a time when I'd be like, Oh, you want to move your cheek over here. I'll follow your cheek to the ends of the earth so I can scratch it. And the minute I see that, even sometimes, before they move away. Now, because I catch it earlier, they almost always turn back into you. That's right, very rare, right? They don't turn back into you. And now you're in a give and take, yeah, event, and you know, it's just, it's really pretty hysterical, because we were, we were having a what we call spa days at rain the other day. And I was, I was holding one of our previously feral horses for someone else to groom. And she came, just diving in with the with the curry comb, without ever breeding the horse, without ever, you know, and and the horse was responding accordingly. And I said, I said, Hey. I said, Have you noticed how she's responding? And she says, Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out. And I said, Well, I said, Let's just make this like a human I said, Imagine I came up to you and or that you're on a date with somebody, and you're trying Yes, and y'all haven't even said hi yet. And she goes, Oh, my God, that is what we're doing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Just take a moment and make sure that you see her, yeah, and that she can see that you see her. And it changed everything. It was so interesting because she's, like, I never thought of that. But yeah, know you how many times I'm in places where I see people chasing, yeah, horse's face around. Like, not very Pat, you.

Julia: 1:41:42

Yeah, exactly. And you know, that's that, to some degree,

Lynn: 1:41:45

that's what dogs are asking for. You know, my dog will chase you around until you pet her. Yeah. But a horse, on the other hand, might turn his head away and say, Hey, give me a second here, right? I'll grin it. And as

Unknown: 1:41:57

you're learning at siege one. So some dog might say, No, I'm too shy for that. Or Absolutely, or I would rather you just talk to that person for a while, while I observe you from over here, and then I'm going to come over and say hi, yeah, but give me a minute. Yeah, exactly, and, and that's what I mean. They're all saying something, and they're saying they're like you and I, they're just saying what you know, what they feel,

Lynn: 1:42:18

yeah. And we, if we can start paying attention, it seems to me, as I'm as I'm hearing you and I think about this conversation, when we pay attention to them, we're also paying attention to ourselves, and that could be a road back to that lost child from seven years Old that knew her path and needs a way back.

Unknown: 1:42:44

Yeah, pay attention to yourself. Pay attention to people too, because they often will say words that aren't really how they feel. And if you can see more, you help them more. Yeah,

Lynn: 1:42:59

and isn't that? You know that's been my mission, and I really am grateful for you for having this conversation about finding our way back. Because if there's nothing else, that's my mission, especially at this stage of my life, it's the people I'm working with. I want them to be able to find their way back to whatever their version is. Not everybody's going to be Pippi Longstocking and Dr, no, all of us, all of us had something at seven. Mm, hmm, we wanted to be Yep. And it's really amazing to come back to it, yeah.

Unknown: 1:43:29

I mean, maybe, you know, maybe there was a little kid that that wanted to be a ballerina, and she danced for two years, and then she had to forget about all that, and you could just take a dance class again. I mean, just reconnect, find, allow yourself the whatever that was that you you loved, because you probably still love it. The passions stay with us. I think they did

Lynn: 1:43:55

another I had, I had a client in one of my workshops who was a musician, and and eight to go back to it. And I asked him why he hadn't he goes well, because that's no kind of life for a family man. And I said, What do you mean? Playing guitar is no life for a family man. And he had actually jumped in his mind that if he was going to play guitar, he was going to join a band, and if he joined the band, it meant they were going to be successful, and then they were going to be

Julia: 1:44:22

on the road. And he yeah, that's that going down those rabbit holes.

Lynn: 1:44:26

And I said, I said, I just mentioned that you should play girl, you know Band, Guitar, I tell you to join a band. Yeah. Can you do that at home? And he said, I never, it never even dawned on me, right? Could do it for anything other than to try to be the next, wow, easy talk or whatever. Yeah. So it was just so mind blowing for him to think, Oh, I could do this differently, but I'm still doing the thing I love. And it's true for painting or, you know, writing,

Julia: 1:44:55

anything that's exactly right.

Lynn: 1:44:57

We're all, I think at some what is. Some way born creative. And it's like, find your way back to your passion, because you had it. Mm, hmm. I love this message. It lights me up, as I can see, it lights you up too. Yeah, tell me. Tell or not, tell me, because I know how to find you. Tell. Tell the listeners how they can find you. I know you're blogging regularly,

Unknown: 1:45:21

yeah, well, actually, I'm remiss. I haven't blogged for a while. But if you're looking more generally, it would be the considering animals.com if you're a horse person, it would be two stepway.com

Lynn: 1:45:36

Okay, so you have two websites, considering animals.com and two stepway.com and and do you give clinics? Or

Unknown: 1:45:46

yep, I am starting to look at giving clinics, so I am open to that. I work individually with horses. I've done several different things. I have a woman who's coming out here right now because she's scared of horses. So I sometimes help a person without horses. I had a person come on a retreat here who wanted to learn about communication with animals, but she has only a rabbit. So it's it's sort of evolving in its directions, but it really is all work. I mean, if you're having a problem with your horse or dog, definitely can give me a call or get in touch. Mostly, I work with horses. And yeah, that's That's it. I am thinking of putting together some clinics. And yeah, I'm just kind of letting it blow with the wind and also trying to balance it. You're all about balance with time for my own animals and time to sit in this beautiful property and in my really peaceful, wonderful life. I don't want to unbalance that as well.

Lynn: 1:47:02

Well, I think that's brilliant, and something you would be teaching the people you work with as well. Yeah. So well. Thank you. Julia Carpenter, so much for being here, and for those of you listening, if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends. Write it on the podcast apps. This is the best way for us to get the news out there, and I'd really appreciate you doing that. If you're interested in hearing more from me, you can always find me by subscribing to my newsletter. You can find that at Lynn carnes.com it's called the coaching digest, and it's where I publish these podcasts as well as my own blog. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast with Julia Carpenter, and we will see you on the next one. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations, and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and, of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today. You.