#95: Hannah Betts: Facing Fear; Lessons from a Stuntwoman

My guest for this episode is Hannah Betts, Hollywood Stuntwoman, Professional Skydiver and more. If you watched the Superbowl this year, you saw Hannah land in a cruise ship swimming pool after jumping out of a helicopter. She shares some of the behind-the-scenes magic from that commercial, as well as some of the scarier stunts she’s done for other shows and movies. She’s had a number of scary things happen in her career – and the way she embraces things not going right is inspiring.

 In our conversation, we deeply explored the topic of fear from angles rarely talked about. Hannah has been to the other side of fear, and she’s bringing back the wisdom she’s earned to help the rest of us in our own journeys see fear as a companion, not an enemy.

Here’s what Hannah has to say about herself:

Hannah Betts has worn many bold titles—Outdoor Adventure Sports Instructor, Police Officer, Professional Skydiver, and now, Hollywood Stuntwoman. Beyond the risk and achievement lies a deeper journey—one of confronting fear and vulnerability head-on, rising above comparison, and letting go of the expectations to live a 'conventional life'. Despite what it may look like from the outside, fear walks with her every day. She just doesn’t let it lead. Hannah’s mission is to empower others to do the same - to lean into fear rather than run from it. Through the power of her story, she helps others break free from what holds them back, unfreeze the parts of life that feel out of reach, and boldly step into their unique potential.

Transcript

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life and now here's your host. Lynn Carnes,

Lynn: 0:19

welcome to the Creative Spirits Unleash Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Hannah Betts, Hollywood stunt woman, professional skydiver and more. If you watch the Super Bowl this year, you saw Hannah land in a cruise ship swimming pool after jumping out of a helicopter. Now in this episode, she shares some of the behind the scenes magic from that commercial, as well as some of the scarier stunts she's done for other shows and movies. She's had a number of scary things happen in her career, and the way she embraces things not going right is inspiring. In our conversation, we deeply explored the topic of fear from angles rarely talked about. Anna has been to the other side of fear, as I call it, and she's bringing back the wisdom she's earned to help the rest of us in our own respective journeys, see fear as a companion, not an enemy. Now here's what Hannah has to say about herself. Hannah Betts has won many bowl titles, outdoor adventure sports, instructor, police officer, professional skydiver and now Hollywood stunt woman. Beyond the risk and achievement lies a deeper journey, one of confronting fear and vulnerability head on, rising above comparison and letting go of the expectations to live a quote, unquote, conventional life despite what it may look like from the outside, fear walks with her every day. She just doesn't let it lead. Hannah's mission is to empower others to do the same, to lean into fear rather than run from it. Through the power of her story, she helps others break free from what holds them back, unfreeze the parts of life that feel out of reach, and boldly step into their unique potential. Now hearing that biography, you may think I would love to hear Hannah speak some more, and that's possible. If you get in touch with her, with the information that we are providing in the show notes, you will find a way to book her as a speaker for your own group. I hope you really enjoy this podcast with Hannah. Betts. ANNA Betts, welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast.

Hannah Betts: 2:21

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I

Lynn: 2:26

needless to say, I am too. If smiles come through the voice we're both grinning from you see that we we met through Warwick Schiller's journey on podcast Summit, and really only got to visit briefly last year after I heard your speech. And so this is conversation has been a while and coming, yes, but I remember leaping out of my chair to applaud you. I think I actually, I think there might even be a picture of me, like with my hands up in the air, like the victory.

Hannah Betts: 3:04

And I think there is, and it's funny, that was one of the first things that I saw, as, you know, I finished the speech, and this wave of relief to come over me. And it was, it was a very magical moment for me, because I'm going to fan girl on you for a second, because the the year before you you presented, and it was one of my, my favorite talks, and I've always wanted to connect with you, so to see you cheering me on was extremely heartwarming.

Lynn: 3:28

Oh, gosh. Well, I it was, it was just like this moment where there was something that you were able to communicate around this very essential emotion, fear that we all share. There's nobody on the planet except for maybe Alex huddled, and I don't think his brain works right. He's the free, solo guy. Yeah, maybe he even has fear, but it's it's wired differently or something. But, yeah, this, I this, this thing that we all have, and whether we admit we have it or we don't, whether we work with it or work against it, whether we pretend it's there or pretend whatever we do with it, there was something that you communicated. This is why I leaped out of my chair, that I experienced that said she's got it. And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how you've come to have a relationship with fear that allows you to strap into a parachute and jump out of a perfectly good plane, by way of example, and do other things that Hollywood stunt women do. So how did, how have you developed a relationship with fear? And I'm sure it's still developing. Let me just say that. Oh, it

Hannah Betts: 4:47

definitely is developing, because there's so many different layers to it. I somehow in my life, I've always had careers that have either been quite male dominated or. Or slightly, quote, unquote extreme, whether it's being an outdoor sports instructor and then a police officer, then a competitive and professional skydiver and Hollywood stunt woman, I've been because of that. I've been forced into facing a lot of fears and navigating through them. And it occurred to me quite recently that a lot of people, just because of what I have done in my life, assume that I am this ultra freak of nature, courageous human being that doesn't feel fear, or that I'm an adrenaline junkie. You know, all those classic labels, and I have to explain to people now I'm mildly terrified all the time in every aspect of life, including all the things that I've done just somewhere along the way because of the situations that I put been put in, I really have learned how to kind of navigate through that fear. And I didn't realize those were the lessons that I was learning throughout my life, until quite recently, I've realized I have lived quite an unconventional life, but the story, I think that I was projecting to other people was, was was not correct. It it, like said, it came across as this very brave, fearless human being, but it's actually an incredibly vulnerable and scared story most of the time.

Lynn: 6:23

Yeah, so what is what besides the danger side, okay, but, but, but it's more than that. What is the vulnerable side? What makes it vulnerable? I

Hannah Betts: 6:35

think that the vulnerable side is that before I do any of these things, whether or as admit, admitting that, for example, before I'm about to walk into a briefing of a drug raid that I am in charge of, and I have to go into a room with 20 men and deliver that, you know that prep that speech, I'm My heart is in my mouth. I'm beyond terrified. I'm not going in there with this level of like I've got this I know what I'm doing. I have to kind of push myself through it to the other side before I'm doing these competitions where I'm winning World Championships. The same thing, I'm terrified. I'm doubting myself all the time before I do a big stunt, before I come on this podcast, before I do any public speaking, I have an element of of trepidation and fear as well. I've just learned, I've learned to treat that physical feeling of fear like a like a reliable companion that's actually prepping me. I've realized that that fear isn't necessarily something to be scared of. It's actually warning me, hey, you're about to do something really cool. For the most part. On the other side of this feeling is something really great. This is your body just preparing you to do something awesome. This isn't something that's telling you to kind of exit stage left or moonwalk away from the situation. And I think the more I've lent into that feeling and understood that this is a natural feeling to have. It isn't something to shy away with, and I've embraced that feeling more. It's allowed me to move through those scary situations. If any of that makes

Lynn: 8:15

so much sense to me, because you you called it a companion, right? And I often have come to think of it as signal versus noise, right, because sometimes, to me, the noise that happens when I'm about to do something big is I shouldn't be feeling this. This means something about to go wrong, as opposed to about to go right. Yeah, but I wonder where that message came from, because, as I hear you describe, it makes all the sense in the world. Shouldn't we, when we're doing something important, feel all the chemicals our bodies designed to have for us to face, the things that come at us, the adrenaline and then the resulting, you know, endorphins after that. Shouldn't we be feeling that? Isn't that normal, and where did the message become? We're not supposed to feel shit,

Hannah Betts: 9:10

right? Exactly. And I think I talk about this, what, what's the infuriating thing is the, and I even talked about our about this subject with Chantal Pratt, our friend, our neuroscientist, because I wanted to make on my podcast. Yeah, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going crazy, because I was explaining to her, you know, the difficulty sometimes that people have in identifying the different kinds of fear, right, the one that you should listen to and the one that you should ignore, and how you differentiate between that, because the science behind it, and I don't want to butcher it, but, and I talk about this as the level of fear and all those physical sensations that you feel, if there is a very real and imminent threat of death, like you think you are about to be murdered, or you're about. To be eaten by a wild animal. That feeling is no different than I would feel the first time I get up on a stage to do public speaking. Right? It's and it's immediately telling our body from our natural instincts, from millions of years of DNA wide into us. It's telling us to run, run away from that situation, and it's important for us to identify which one that is, is it saying? Is it really run, or is it just an excitement that produces this, those same physical sensations? And that's the biggest thing that I think, that has gotten me through a lot of these situations is I've I always feel it. I tell my people I'm an incredibly nervous person. I think I feel nerves more extremely than than a lot of people, but I've learned to try and observe that fear first, rather than absorb it and not let it think. For me, I'm like, Okay, I'm feeling it. What? What does that mean? First, well,

Lynn: 11:05

not let it think for you is so big, because you're not reacting, then you're listening. Yes,

Hannah Betts: 11:15

you're listening. And what I often say is, and I'm not telling people to ignore fear because it keeps us safe. You know what I mean, like that creepy bar looking across at the bar from you, telling you to move. Yeah, hell yeah. Listen to that. But quite often, the way I differentiate it, the good fear, quote, unquote, the one that you want to lean into, often comes with, like a tingling sensation, almost like an excitement, a little buzz. It's terrifying. But there's also something vibrating that feels right. My good friend Melanie Curtis calls it intuitive tingling, yeah, and it's learning. And the other fear that the bad fear, or the fear that I guess I should listen to, for me, there's a slight sense of dread, or there's a sinking sensation in my stomach, it's it's not the right feeling. So I think it's really important to listen to your body. Where the where the big ones, you know, the the spike in the heart rate, the tingling feelings, you know, the dry mouth, all the things that we associate with just being scared. I think beneath that, there's some other signals, and I think that's what we need to really tap into. Is there with those big signals? Is there a kind of lightness and a tingling up in your chest and your heart and your mind, or is this this sinking dread sensation beneath it? And that's how I've started to identify

Lynn: 12:41

which really useful. And so it's like you've calibrated, yeah, you're calibrating the sensation and tuning in, instead of running to the, you know, the refrigerator to eat chocolate or drink wine or, you know, get something to make these feelings go away. Because, yeah, these feelings aren't going away. To me, it's I don't surf, but I often think of it as the key is to ride the wave level

Hannah Betts: 13:09

completely. And trust me, I don't get this right all the time, and I would be a big fat liar if I didn't say that chocolate in the fridge called me a lot of times. You know, it becomes less and less like you say that the it's like a practice, right? The more we lean into and really sit with that feeling, whether it's in the moment or you have a long time to think about it, that we get better at practicing it and identifying it and listening to our gut. And quite often when I when I realized I've maybe made the wrong choice, or I didn't listen to the to the correct fear, I always go back and I asked myself, where was it? Because somewhere along that line, you knew, but you ignored it, like there, there was a there was something that told you that wasn't a that wasn't the right choice, but you kind of, you didn't want to listen to it. What was it and and why was it? So I always go back on decisions that maybe weren't the best at the time, not to beat myself up, but just to understand where the where the trip was, or whether where the blind spot

Lynn: 14:16

was. Well, that's smart. And I really liked that you made the distinction not to beat yourself up. I've I talked a bit about this in my book, and I'm still working on it, because I work with athletes and other and corporate people that are high performance and and I'm a recovering beat myself upper I guess that's the way you would put that. But it doesn't seem to help. But it seems to be almost inevitable that people want to be really hard on themselves. So how do you stay out of that mind trap?

Hannah Betts: 14:47

Oh, goodness that that is something that I am absolutely still working on. I think my mind for summary. And immediately goes to comparison. I think when we when we beat ourselves up, we compare ourselves to other people that made better choices or did did better things. And I've just realized that comparison is just an absolute fallacy, and everyone's everyone's dealing with their own stuff, but in regards to not beating myself up, I think I've just learned over the years that it no good comes from that the if, like Terry real says, and this is something that I'm working on right now, if it's not kind, I'm not interested. And I try and have that mantra a lot, and I try and catch myself, and if I realize I'm not being kind, I tell myself I'm not interested, that's not helpful, that that's kind of where I'm at right now with that is a little mantra,

Lynn: 15:49

yeah, that's a good well, that's a good one. And, you know, I found we found it with animals. I work with rain rescue, and we we've got Mustangs and feral horses, and we were we have Bruce Anderson come in to train them. And the other day, someone was working with one of our Mustangs, and she didn't get the thing done the way she wanted, and started to beat herself up. And here was a new distinction I hadn't caught before. But as she began to beat herself up, the Mustang was reading that, and Bruce pointed out, he said, You just abandoned that Mustang. You just abandoned the horse to go beat yourself up. And now not only is the horse left to her own devices, but you are over there, like taking away from the session that we're in totally and so both of you, you're beating yourself up what you're doing to help yourself. You're not doing it because you think it's a bad thing to do. You're doing it because you think it works. But you've actually, like, abandoned her, and she can hear it in your head completely, which most people don't understand. But horses definitely hear that stuff

Hannah Betts: 16:59

completely, and I think I've been more witness to it, funnily enough, since I've been on set, a lot, there's a lot of pressure that comes with performance and getting things right the first time right. The pressure of everyone's looking at you is costing 1000s of 1000s of dollars. You know, Hollywood is notoriously impatient, and whether it's, you know, someone that has to physically perform like a stunt performer or an actor, I think I've been witness to the results of beating yourself up, as opposed to accepting that everybody makes mistakes, and if you're delivering that line and it gets wrong and you get frustrated with yourself or you can't do this stunt that the director is asking. I've witnessed other people and myself do the beating up, getting frustrated. I didn't nail it the first time, and no good comes from that. It only, it only makes it worse. It just, it, just, you know, debilitates you, and the ones that care less do and, you know, literally care less about their mistakes. Fix the mistakes quicker than the ones that care, quote, unquote, too much, too much. It just exacerbates the problem. So I think having been witness to that over and over again on set, it's really drilled into me as well that the ones that almost like, give zero fucks, get through it quicker and easier.

Lynn: 18:26

Yeah, because impression is gone. Every mind sport golf, you know, the ones who like, let that bad shot go and then just make a brilliant shot, are the ones that win the tournaments. It's exactly like you say, care too much they carry yeah area because they care too

Hannah Betts: 18:44

much, completely, yeah. And that's something that our skydiving coach focused on all the time. We only had like 35 seconds to do a lot of formations, and if you fumble out the door, you can either let that continue into the worst skydive of your life, or you it can almost like calm you and motivate you into having the best skydive of your life, just depending on how you treat that first mistake, whether you take it on board, or whether you just let it go and pretend it never happened, you almost have to trick your brain.

Lynn: 19:17

Okay, so I've got two threads I have to follow. Tell me about these skydiving competitions. You've jumped out of an airplane, and then you're doing a formation. Take it from there. What is, what is this all

Hannah Betts: 19:28

about? Yeah, it's, it's a tricky thing to explain, but I will do my best. So I was part of what's called a four person formation team, and I was on the British female teams. They're all female, and there's four of us. And the way the competition works, or the way the moves work, is we were kind of linked. We're all linked in the door together before exit, and the moment we exit the aircraft, we have a certain amount of formations to do on repeat, five or six formations, as many times as possible. All in the correct sequence. Within 35 seconds from the moment we exit the plane, there is a videographer that jumps with us, that flies above us, and films the whole thing, and that's what the judges look at at the bottom. Now the here's the kicker, that the competition that I competed in, there are different disciplines. There are some disciplines that is more like a technical gymnastics routine in the sky, like dancing and doing flips, and, you know, doing that synchronized with another partner, and that's exactly how like a gymnastics routine would be judged. And you can practice that routine over and over and over and over and over again till it's second nature. The competition that I competed in wasn't like that. So we have about the teams that compete, have about 50 formations or moves that we learn, that we understand individual moves. But on the day of competition, there are 10 skydives. But on the day of the competition, the moves are randomly generated by the judges or a machine, and you're told this is the six moves that you're going to do in sequence. Now it is impossible to train all those sequences. It's absolutely impossible. You would never have done that sequence before. So you engineer it on the ground with your teammates, and then you go up and do it for the first time ever in competition. So you have to stay and there's a lot of there's a lot of moves that can end up being like 20 moves in a row that you have to repeat, and if you don't stay calm, you can't rely on muscle memory, because you've never done it before. But you're also trying to move as fast as possible, and you're supposed to be doing it, you've got to be completely in sync with all your teammates, because your hands and your grips have to land at exactly the same time and be released. And we could be doing like, 50 formations in 35 seconds. So we're moving really quickly in the sky. And if you don't keep your brain calm, you are going to brain lock immediately and just and brain fart and just, it's, you know, you'll lose

Lynn: 22:04

exercise. I mean, that's the most dramatic exercise and presence I think I've ever heard of.

Hannah Betts: 22:09

Yeah, you're definitely not thinking about what's for dinner halfway through that skydive, that's for sure.

Lynn: 22:14

And you've had to memorize it, yeah? So we kind of got bored sitting there going, okay, that's because that

Hannah Betts: 22:21

No. So the visualization was huge, huge, huge. We would, we'd engineer it on the ground on kind of, you know, like, the same kind of rollers that mechanics use to get under their car. So we'd be in a belly to, you know, ground position, and we'd engineer it on the ground to work out the most efficient and fastest way to get from one formation to the other with the four of us. And then all you could do was see it in your head and think about it on the 20 minute plane ride up to altitude, and then off you go and you perform it for the first time. So you've never practiced that sequence, the moves you understand, but getting from one to the other and the order you've never done before. So that, without a doubt, that kind of training definitely prepared me for stunt work. Because you turn up on set and you're never going to do the same thing. Sometimes you don't know what you're going to do, and you've never done the exact same thing ever. You know, when the director tells you what you've got to do, you have to really kind of what's

Lynn: 23:19

the wildest thing you've been asked to

Hannah Betts: 23:21

do in stunts? Yeah, I think one of the most surprising things to do, and this was actually quite early on in my career, and normally you'd get, you'd be given a bit of a heads up about this stunt, but the only thing that I was asked before was, Are you paddy certified, like scuba dive certified. And are you comfortable in water and enclosed spaces? And I, luckily, I don't lie, and I was like, Yeah, and I and I turned up, and turns out the stunt was I was suspended in a Prius car at night about 10 feet above a lake, so it was hanging off a crane, and the car had a big hole cut out of it in the center console, and I was blindfolded because of the storyline, and there were scuba tanks in the car, and had regulators strapped to my legs, and I had snuck a mask in the in the glove compartment, but they were simulating a car crash into the lake. So I was dropped 10 feet from the crane into the lake, and I had to act a sequence of, you know, trying to get out and wait for the water to as the car sank, wait for the water to go above my head before I could put the regulator in. So the shot was over then, and the water was so murky. It was in Long Beach. It was at night, and it was just that I had to really prepare myself for lots of different scenarios. Ideally, luckily, the safety team got to me straight away and got me out. But we also had to prepare for many worst case scenarios, like the car might start to roll. All, and it might take them 30 minutes to get me out, and I'm stuck in a pitch black car, just regulator, not knowing when they're going to come to get me. So I had to really mentally prepare, prepare myself for Worst case scenario and work backwards, not the other way around. And you know, I put myself, I often put myself in those positions, and I think about worst case scenario to the point I can visualize it, to the point that I can get my body amped, I can get my heart rate spiking, and I can I can feel the adrenaline. I can feel what it's going to feel. And I do that intentionally so I understand how I'm going to feel when that happens. So if and when that does, it's not a surprise to me. Oh gosh, I'm feeling anxious and nervous because now I'm trapped in a car. That's okay. That's a normal reaction to have in my body. What are you going to do to stay calm in your head like and this? This is the thing that I have always, more recently done is I allow my body to have all those nervous sensations, because I've never been able to get rid of them. I try to get rid of the nerves, but then trying to get rid of the nerves, I just couldn't do it. I maybe one day I'll get there. I've tried so many different techniques, but I could never not physically feel nervous about anything. So I decided just to let it happen and just focus on my mind. So I'd almost separate my mind from my body, and my mind would say, hey, talk to my body. I can feel you getting amped up down there. That's awesome. Thanks for looking after me. But if you don't mind, we're gonna stay really calm up here and slow everything down. So that's the familiar companion feeling that I've tried to get used to. That feeling so it doesn't surprise me, or it doesn't make me feel nervous for feeling nervous, if that makes sense, because that's what used to happen. Yeah, I was more nervous for feeling nervous because I felt bad that I felt numb. You're not supposed to feel nervous. You're a professional. You shouldn't feel nervous before

Lynn: 26:59

competition, yeah, because you're actually making it okay to feel the way you're supposed to feel. Yes, if you're going to do those things like be in a car that might roll over in the dark in murky water, you better have some energy running through your body to animate you, yeah, and if you think there's something wrong with that, then you're going to try to stop the thing that is actually helping you

Hannah Betts: 27:28

Exactly, exactly. And so once I just let my body have those sensations, like I said, it just felt like a reliable friend was there, kind of looking after me. It was recognizing you're about to do something pretty big, but it's a good, it's a good, big, but, but, but my brain, I've just, I, honestly, I like compartmentalize it and just say, we're chill up here in my brain, you're ready, you're pumped up for me. Down there, you're looking after me in different ways, and you're both, you're both doing the correct the correct job. And I the same thing I used to say, and I realized I wasn't practicing what I was preaching for such a long time, because my skydiving students would say to me, I'm, you know, I've instructed many people on their first jump courses and taught, you know, everyone from civilians to Navy Seals and people that they're like, Man, I'm really nervous about doing this first skydive. I'm like, Thank Thank goodness. I said I would be more tariff. I would be worried if you weren't nervous, like you're acknowledging what you're about to do. It's a big thing, and that keeps you that stops you from being complacent. I said, if you weren't nervous, then I would get nervous because I'd be worried that you're not taking this seriously. You're not ready, you're not ready. And then it occurred to me, I'm like, preaching people saying, Yeah, nerves are good. And I was like, beating myself up for having them when I was doing things. And I was like, hold on a second.

Lynn: 28:53

Yeah. I had a call the other day with a client, and we use the language we use for that sensation. We call it the negative positive pole. And we that means, like a car battery, so the electricity running through your body, and the positive pole is like that tingly feeling you were describing is what I think that probably is, and the negative side is the sort of something's wrong, something's very off here. That's not beneficial to me. So but the amount of energy that needs to be running through that we were talking about a client who's considering starting a business and jumping out of corporate and doing a jump like I've done, and I've had a lot of clients actually do this. And at the beginning of the at the end of the conversation, I said, tell me how high is your negative pole right now? And she goes, Well, it's like a seven out of a scale of 10. And I said, Great. I said, What was it when we started? And she said it was a two. And I said, that's fantastic, because what you're doing is worthy of a seven, and it's telling you it's a seven. Like you're listening to what this is going to mean. How do you go all in on going from having a paycheck to writing invoices and delivering something people are willing to pay for? And like, I did not expect this call to go that way. I thought you were going to calm me down. And I said, I'm not trying to make you not calm. What I'm trying to have you understand is how much energy you need

Hannah Betts: 30:22

to do. Yeah, and I think that's so important. It's not all just necessarily about that. You know, fuck it. I'm all in. Let's just do this. It really is acknowledging the level of the thing that you want to do. But if you still want to do it, that's great, but you're just equipped with more knowledge. Now, you know, there's a there's just a sense of reality there that comes with it. I think that's really important too.

Lynn: 30:45

Well, you shouldn't be jumping out of airplanes without having the preparation, both mental and physical, that is required

Hannah Betts: 30:52

Exactly. And like I said, the people that make me really nervous, so the Yahoo people that are like, Look at me. I'm just doing this for a quick adrenaline in the hit. And quite often they're the ones that get hurt. You know, with that kind of stuff comes a big level of responsibility as well, almost to the point of annoyance to some people. And it be boring. You know, it's, I think productions are quite often shocked about how strict we are about certain things that we just won't deviate from to keep us safe when they're not getting what they want. You know, it's you. You have to respect what you're doing and then level of risk that you're taking each time. It's always that you're constantly mitigating that risk and analyzing it, yeah,

Lynn: 31:33

well, and being prepared for the unexpected. Because, you know, I'm on the other end, flying airplanes, not nothing out

Hannah Betts: 31:41

which is just which is more terrifying to me. I don't

Lynn: 31:46

think so at all, because I understand the risk, and I've dove, yeah, and we practice things going wrong. And actually, one of the assumptions I noted as I've been on this journey in my 20s, my my biggest fear was to have to do stalls and things that felt weird in the plane, or, do you know, engine off landings or whatever, and I was like, I don't want anything to go wrong. My assumption then was, I don't want anything to go wrong as I developed and came back to it in my 60s. It was okay. Things are going to go wrong. Great. Now, how do you show up when things go wrong? So be happy when the instructor says we're going to pull the power and now land the plane. Or be thrilled when they say we're going to do these steep turns, or we're going to do the engines on fire, do a steep, spiraling downward, dive to put the engine out, put the flames out, and it'd be like, I don't want this to ever happen. No? Now it's like, hey, Yay, it's happening. Let me see how well I do putting this fire out,

Hannah Betts: 32:52

you see? And it's just, I can relate so well to that, and it's such a metaphor for life, right? We want to make choices or decisions that kind of take us away from the option of that ever happening or, you know, but the problem is, is it will it will happen. Life will spiral at some point, the engine will stall. My parachute will not open correctly at some point, and we it's, it's exactly the same as the saying with skydiving, it's not if you're going to have a malfunction, it's when you're going to have a malfunction. I had the same thing. I had this utter terror of having my main parachute malfunction. And it does happen, and it averages one in 1000 and at one point, I was doing 1000 jumps a year. That's how much I was training. And I now I've had about nine parachute malfunctions, but up until I had the first one, I was terrified. Even though we drilled it all the time, I still was terrified of having one. And then it happened, and you deal with it, and then I wasn't terrified of it anymore, like I did it, I did my drills, I landed on my reserve. I'm alive. Everything's okay. And it just shifted for me. But I had that attitude of avoiding and hoping it wouldn't happen for so long. And if we take that kind of thing into life as well, you just, it's just you have this false sense of safety. But it's not that kind of attitude is not safety. It's restraint. It's holding you back. And like you said, when you lean into it, into the what can go wrong, and not be scared of it, you always come out the other side, kind of just more confident. You're more capable than you think you

Lynn: 34:36

are. Oh, I'm so glad you used the word confident, because it's the courage, I think that you had to stay with it that builds the confidence. And I always

Hannah Betts: 34:47

say that people think I'm confident, I'm like, I'm not. Courage leads to confidence, because confidence comes on the backside of the experience. Yes, it does. You don't get it beforehand. And. That's what I think, where so many people trip up is like, it's okay to not feel confident. You've still just gotta figure out how to be brave enough to go into it, to gain the confidence on the other side of it.

Lynn: 35:11

Yeah, I had, I have heard courage defined as commitment plus doubt.

Hannah Betts: 35:17

Oh, isn't that good? Oh, that's so good. You would actually it. Yeah,

Lynn: 35:23

you wouldn't do it's not courage if there's no doubt. The piece on the other side is capture it the nine times you've captured the confidence that I can get myself out of this. For me, the first stall in an airplane was not like it was the worst feeling of my life because on the edge of a spin, and it's like, I really don't want to do that. Yeah. And

Hannah Betts: 35:46

it goes against all your instincts. Then you

Lynn: 35:48

come out of it, and you're like, oh, okay, now I know how to do that. Yeah. And then you have that under your belt, like it's just normal. And then you can build on that, if you are willing to build on it. This is where I've had to learn. It's in those moments of things not going right that we build the mental tools, the mental fitness for the next thing

Hannah Betts: 36:10

exactly right. How else do we grow? How else do we learn? Yeah, and I think people just tend to avoid the things that have the risk of not going right, but don't realize how much they're crippling themselves in life by by doing that, by seeking that familiar discomfort,

Lynn: 36:32

right? Well, then this is what I love. Stevie Delahunt was also a speaker the same. Yes, I was, and I've been out to ride with her now, and I'm about to be out there in a couple of weeks. It'll be my fourth time.

Hannah Betts: 36:43

Such a big fan of hers.

Lynn: 36:46

But she talks a lot about predict productive discomfort, and she is not afraid of putting people in uncomfortable circumstances at all, people or horses. It's like, Yeah, but it's a productive thing in that it causes you to learn and grow. And yes, I saw and I talked to Chantelle about this as well, but Andrew Huberman is the one who kind of got me onto this idea that it's agitation is required for learning and growth, exactly. And so this feeling, whatever we call it, negative, positive pole, adrenaline, hit, whatever. You can't change anything. If the little cells inside of you are not vibrating, they have to be kind of loosened or shaken up like a snow globe. Yeah? And so if you try to change from your comfort zone, which, believe me, I did for a very long time, you're not going to change much. Yeah?

Hannah Betts: 37:38

No, you're just intellectualizing everything from your comfort zone, you're understanding it, but you're not actually putting it into practice. And the thing that stops us from putting those things into practice is is the fear, the fear of the unknown and and that's the thing that we have to practice, that it's okay to going into something that you don't fully understand. And I had this, one of my favorite quotes when I start getting anxious about something, is you're only scared because it's unfamiliar, not because you're capable, you know, not because you're not capable. It's the unfamiliarity that terrifies us, and it's learning to move through that

Lynn: 38:18

uncertainty seems to be like one of the human major dreads. And I think about our hunter gatherer ancestors, who probably lived in a level of uncertainty that none of us could even Yeah, and now we want everything predictable. Yeah,

Hannah Betts: 38:38

exactly. And I mean, it is. It's wired into us. And they say that that uncertainty, never knowing when their next meal is going to come, what predator is going to come and get them. But we live in a very different world right now. But like you said, that primal instinct is so hard wired into us, but as we know, science has proven that we can rewire, you know, the way our brain works. In that sense, we just have to keep practicing it. Yeah,

Lynn: 39:03

absolutely, there is no question. Because I've, I've been on that journey personally, and the things that I do now that I couldn't do just a mere few years ago, sometimes even just a mere few weeks ago, yeah, are mind boggling to me. I've been open to allowing the agitation to run me and,

Hannah Betts: 39:23

yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still slip back into it. I don't want people to think that I've just got this, you know, down to a T. I still have crippling moments of, you know, anxiety and self doubt and but I just think over the years, I've managed to move through those quicker, because I understand the emotions that are coming with it right now, and I've I'm less scared to sit in that feeling and be with it, as opposed to push it away. Yes, and because we, you know, we so often, will go back to even if we're not happy, and. Life, it's a familiar discomfort, right? And we've taught ourselves how to live with it, and we like familiarity, and we know what we're dealing with, even if it's not a nice reality, we understand it, and we've taught ourselves how to live with it. So we convince ourselves that that's safe and that's why we stay with it, but it's understanding that that really is just a restraint. It's not safety. And I think that's what I always come down to. You have to ask yourself, are you living a life out of out of fear or choice? What is driving you the fear that's keeping you in this spot, or are you genuinely choosing to be where you are right now? Question I have to ask myself constantly.

Lynn: 40:43

I have to do it for myself, because I am a master of saying that fear is behind me when it's squarely in front of me. Lots of little tricky ways of saying but I'm not really afraid. Yeah, you know, totally, I could totally do that, but I you know, I'm not gonna, and it'd be like, Oh, well, yeah, you are. Or, I mean, yeah, right in front of you,

Hannah Betts: 41:08

yeah. And you've learned when you kind of that little voices is creating a story that that's packaged really well, that makes sense, but deep down, you're like, Okay, this is, this is bullshit.

Lynn: 41:18

So when you're in those moments and it's so cool to hear that somebody that's done all the things you've done, and yet still done those things, but you've been in that, what you called crippling place. How? What is the first step you do to move through it? How do you break it

Hannah Betts: 41:34

down? I say, I say something out loud. Okay, like I say out loud? I am. There's two different things. Let's say I'm scared of doing something that I know I want. That one is a little bit easier, because I'm not in a state of anxiety, but I'm just scared. I will say out loud, oh my god, I'm like, I've jokingly said this before a stunt. I know I'm physically capable of doing it, but some people see this as a like a doubt. But I've said, Man, I am. I am shitting myself right now, but it's okay. It's okay, like I should be, but I don't pretend that I'm not scared, because for me, that just, I just don't do well with it, and that's why I'm not the hugest fan of fake it till you make it. I'm more of an It's okay. Say, say what your fear is, because it gives less power to the thing that you're trying to pretend that you're you're not feeling, which is fear. I always think, if you say it out loud and name what you're feeling, it really does dissipate. And then for me, for me, it's just been the practice of moving through that scary thing, the 321, action. I know them. The moment I do it and I move into it, the fear dissipates, and I know on the other side that I'll get answers. And this isn't necessarily, you know, a big stunt, but let's say I'm making a scary life decision. I always ask myself, what is on the other side of this fear, like, how are you going to feel about walking away from the situation, or pushing through to the situation through the other side. So I kind of, I take the scary thing that's in front of me out of the equation, and just think about the feeling that I want to have, and if I go through it, is that feeling good? Let's, let's just say if it's metaphorically jumping, you know, doing a cliff jump or something. But this could be any life decision. Does the idea of me climbing back down that cliff and not doing it feel okay? Does that feel settled? And if, and if it does, if you're like, Nope, I feel good with not jumping off that cliff, then great, fine. But if I think about doing, like, not doing it, and that, feeling comes with, like this yuckiness and disappointment in myself. Then I realize, Okay, I've got to go, I've got to go the other side, and I know that on the other side I will normally have answers. Because the the funny thing is, is, what the with the scenarios of jump or don't jump? You've already felt the fear. The fear is already there. You're already feeling it. Yeah, you felt the fear whether you're going to jump or whether you're going to climb back down the cliff. And the problem is, when you climb that down the cliff, you've already felt the fear, and now you've also got disappointment and unanswered questions. You've already felt the fear. Or, yeah,

Lynn: 44:14

pay off of the endorphin kick the other side of the adrenaline

Hannah Betts: 44:18

kit, exactly. So sometimes I have to just take that scary thing off the table and just imagine what is on the other side of that scary thing, and what it means to me by doing it or not doing it. The I think the more the anxious side of things when I get into that kind of crippling state of anxiety or fear about life or anything. I used to be a classic avoidance of that of just, you know, whether it be, you know, food, alcohol, anything other than feel the discomfort and just, I think, through a lot of therapy, I've just learned to sit in it and ask and say out loud, what. Is this that I'm feeling? Is it shame? Is it guilt? Is it fear? Is it avoidance? What is it? And just naming it and then asking myself, why do you feel that? And just going through the very basic steps again, this was something that I understood for a long time. I was like, Yeah, I get it. That makes sense. Say that loud name of the Uber but I didn't do it, and it wasn't till I started doing the very simple practice of naming it and asking myself very simple questions while sitting in that discomfort. It it doesn't take long to get out of it.

Lynn: 45:33

That's to me, that's what I call riding the wave. And if I had a thing I did a lot with with my coaching clients, it is teaching them to feel that whatever that is, it's pretty stunning, because I'm in leadership and corporate space, and it's pretty stunning how for a lot of people, making a difficult presentation can feel like jumping out of an airplane, or making a big ask of the boss, you know, for a raise or a promotion, or having to call the boss out on maybe making a decision that's going to hurt them long term, yeah, the speak truth to power kind of thing. Those kind of decisions feel like jumping out of an airplane to

Hannah Betts: 46:13

people exactly, and that that's what I try and say to people all the time, like when I'm talking about bravery and fear, I'm not talking about the obvious stuff, like jumping out of a plane or doing this massive stunt. It can be about, you know, saying uncomfortable, something uncomfortable that you've been feeling, to your partner, asking for that raise, doing that presentation in front of people that you're intimidated by, and it's all life decisions. Then, to me, they're just as terrifying, if not more terrifying than the, you know, the the obvious, scary stuff that that I do,

Lynn: 46:46

and to me, that's the definition of what I call the pressure gap, which is, how much pressure does it take for a skill that you are very good at and you've been doing your whole life, possibly walking or talking? How much pressure does it take? Let's say you're talking in front of a bunch of people, or walking on something that's very high or very thin or very scary. Well, how much pressure before your skills go offline and you can't do that thing anymore? Yep. And then do to close that gap

Hannah Betts: 47:17

you and your pressure gap thing is just so essential, because that's what people don't practice or understand, and that's what catches them off guard, because they they haven't thought about like you say, the difference and feeling of walking along a 12 inch beam on the ground, which you're perfectly capable of doing, or a 12 inch beam 100 feet up, which you're still capable of doing but it's obviously the pressure is very different. And I think that's the thing that catches people off guard, that makes them immediately go, Oh, I'm not going to do that. This. This feels horrible now, which is why I don't, rightly or wrongly, like before I did that presentation, my I before I started practicing that presentation, I would put myself there, like I said, to the point that I would think about it. I would think about Warwick introducing me. I would I would think, and my heart rate would spike, and I would get nervous, and then I would practice my presentation in that state, knowing that eventually I would bring that back down. But I knew, and it's not a self fulfilling prophecy. I just know myself well enough. I've been in enough scenarios where I've been introduced or done things like that in a public setting that my heart rate or go like I like I think the audience can hear it heart rate so loud. And because I just know myself, I knew that was going to happen. I practice things in that state of mind, so when it happens, it feels familiar, not Oh, God. I wasn't expecting that. Like, you know, I practiced this so many times in front of my cat, and it was fine, you know, yeah,

Lynn: 49:01

well, that's, I mean, that's, you know, when I, I was so glad at the podcast summit that my first time up was actually on a panel right standing in front of the group, because by sitting in the panel, I got to feel the audience I got. Because what a lot of people don't recognize until they're up in front of a crowd is you can go into an empty theater and practice your your speech. We did that at the TED talk I did, can you and then when you go in and the audience is there, the energy in the audience that you can feel is different

Hannah Betts: 49:33

you can feel. And even just catching eye contact with someone can throw you off for a second. Yeah,

Lynn: 49:39

and it's not just the I mean, each audience, I think, has its own tone to it as well. So and each room sort of creates a different way it echoes and I and everything. So I was so glad that I had gotten a chance to sit in front of the audience the day before I gave my actual speech. Yeah. Yeah, because and I already was ready for when I stood up, I felt like they were already my friends.

Hannah Betts: 50:05

Yeah, massively, no, I didn't think about at the

Lynn: 50:09

beginning, because at the beginning I was just like, well, who are you? You know, who am I? What are we doing?

Hannah Betts: 50:15

Yeah, I just if there's a place where I can prepare or give myself as much familiarity as possible. I will take that on board, you know, I will get to set early and look at what I'm dealing with. So it's not brand new when I get there, or, for example, doing that presentation. I I asked Tyler, can I go there the day before? Because I was there, I wanted to stand on the stage. I wanted to get there on my own, and I wanted to stand there, and I wanted to look out so it wasn't the first time that I did that on the day, just because I know I'm a baby sometimes and I get really nervous, and anything that I can do to for the scenario to feel more familiar, I'll take it. But you also have to train yourself that you're not always going to get those opportunities. But if I can set myself up for success and prepare as much as possible. I always will do that.

Lynn: 51:02

I in most of the settings I've been in with professional speakers, etc. There is a lot of talk about that, like, I need to have access to the stage ahead of time. You know, I would like to have the lectern here the speaker this way, whatever things that you can do to set things up in your own just to get yourself moved along, because that's part of breaking down the process. It's completely not unlike having to go see something before you do a stunt. You're not going to just go in there and walk in and do the stunt, right?

Hannah Betts: 51:32

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that brings us on to another thing that I think you talk about as well. Quite often, people stop themselves from doing things by comparing themselves to others. They see the end result, and like, I could never do that without knowing all the failures and fear and mental breakdowns that have come along the way to get you there. You know people like, Oh, she's a cool Hollywood stunt woman. They're not seeing me cry on the kitchen floor with my me saying I'm never gonna make it, or, you know, what am I doing? I'm never gonna be, you know, good enough. And my friend saying you've got to keep trying, you know, or driving three hours on the freeway just to meet one person that might be able to give me a job or train. And people see the end result, and they're like, Oh, I could never do that. But they don't see the hot mess that happened for

Lynn: 52:21

you, all the preparation, all the all the things you've done along the way, because we, I think we are also conditioned. I call that gulping. We're conditioned to get to the end very quickly, right? Yeah, I'm, I'm notorious about it. In fact, I'm back in it again with my book, because I I read my book into the podcast, and initially just had to read one chapter because I was not going to do an audible book. I was not finished audible book is like, I don't even know how to do that. And so I gulped, you know, a lot, and then I said, okay, just break it down. And actually, the first time I read the chapter, I didn't even publish it. Like, I was like, Okay, I did it once. Now let me just see if I can do it again, and this time maybe like, not sound like monotone. And then I was like, okay, there I am, because I could tell it wasn't me talking, yeah. And so I said, Okay, break that down to another piece. And now I'm at the stage where it's like, okay, what am I going to accept around stumbles in my words? Does it have to be 100% perfect, or because it's me and I'm reading my book and I'm the publisher, and it sounds like me, and I sometimes stumble over my words. Should that not also maybe be the case in the book so clean my my little, tiny step I'm working on right now is what's acceptable and what's not around just that but, but before I had been gulping, going, it has to be perfect. And I was looking at how to figure out how to get an editor to piece in new sentences, and do I have to read the whole thing over again. In other words, I was gulping, and it was intimidating.

Hannah Betts: 53:55

And that, I love that phrase gulping, and I'm going to use that because I'm so guilty of it whenever I go into, like, my next phase of life, and it, it's that whole thing you're waiting to feel ready, or you're waiting for everything to be perfect before you start moving. And something is better than nothing, and you just need to start with the tools that you have, right? And then it starts to fall into place. But I can relate to that massively as I'm moving like, you know, I still love performing, but I want to move more into this angle of things as well, and talk about this, and do more public speaking and content on fear and understand it more, because I think it's so important. And in my brain, it's the same thing. I'm like, I gotta have a website. I gotta do this, I gotta do that, I gotta do this, I gotta do all these things. I gotta read 20 books. I've got to do and then you go into freeze mode, everything that you've got to get done. And you think, and I have to do it in a week. It's just impossible. And like you said, just do one thing. Just do one thing today.

Lynn: 54:55

And I, I'm a huge fan of the Pareto Principle, which is the 8020 rule. Yeah, which is 8% of your success comes from 20% of your actions. And that's that signal versus noise piece. Again, what is the high leverage thing that I can do next? Yes, and, and if I can't find a high leverage thing, then just do something, because movement is the first thing you have to have.

Hannah Betts: 55:20

I just took the weather my life just moved towards it in some, some way,

Lynn: 55:25

yes, even if it's just something simple, like, I'm in the process of moving house, and it'll take us a year. But I at first it was so intimidating. It was like, You know what? I can clean one drawer and clean one closet, and then if I can't clean the whole closet, I can clean one shelf

Hannah Betts: 55:44

Exactly, exactly, just just to start something, and it's okay. And it's okay if you start it and it messes up, or it's harder than you thought it was going to be, or it didn't go how that's okay as well. It doesn't mean just starting it is going to go perfectly the first time around. It doesn't matter if that first thing that you do is absolute crap, it's fine. You've started Yeah,

Lynn: 56:07

and it never is that way, like every Master is a master, because they suffered through all the starts and stops and starts and stops and starts and stops, the plateaus where it looked like you're as far as you can ever go. Yeah, and I've, I've sometimes think that we get stuck not because of our lack of skill, but because of our beliefs. I think of it as, like, our belief. It's almost always our belief holding us back. And that's like our personal glass ceiling, with,

Hannah Betts: 56:37

without a doubt, without a doubt. It's just, it can be so limiting it like, you know, there are those that think they can and there are those that think they can't, and they're both right? And it's, it's, it is a huge thing. And another thing that I found in life, genuinely, is just when you get to that point, if you're like, This is never going to happen, but you've still got that, that moment of, just keep trying, but you feel like you're coming to the end of, you know, your tether. That's when suddenly movement happens. When you get to that point of just feeling like, I just need to stop. This is never gonna, this is never gonna come to fruition. It's that moment. Normally, if you push through when when it changes, or when you get that opportunity, or something comes through, it's always been at this time when I've just gotten to the almost, almost about to give up, but haven't

Lynn: 57:30

at the edge. Yeah, yeah. And that's the edge. Is something I was taught as a young child, because my mother was afraid of heights. Don't go near the edge. I built walls around every edge, not just the like physical ones, although I did like to drive her crazy. As a kid, I would go jump off cliffs and the like and stuff like that, which would be crazy. I don't do that, but I would not go near the edge of anything that felt like it could take me to another place. And yet I've, I was just thinking, as you were describing that, how many times it's been right at that moment where the answer comes to me in a problem and it's like, oh, it was there all along. I was just so busy gulping that I didn't see answer was sitting right here, just one little, tiny

Hannah Betts: 58:19

thing, yeah, oh gosh, I love that phrase, gulping, yeah, so huge. So I

Lynn: 58:27

one of the things I have to ask about is how you prepared, and I'm sure it was done in many steps, like we're talking about for the big I was so happy to see the carnival ad where you jumped in. Yeah, tell me, like, how did that come to be and describe, first of all, what it was for people that are listening, that might not have heard about it, but because I'm on your Facebook page, so I saw this whole like, Hannah jumped in a swimming pool on a

Hannah Betts: 58:56

cruise ship. First of all, I don't want to disappoint you, but I do have to say that we did fake the swimming pool part at the end, so I didn't actually land my parachute in a cruise ship pool. But with it came a lot of complications and a lot of challenging times. But I can break it down for you know,

Lynn: 59:15

see how things break down because, yeah, lots of great example and results, and what we see are not the same, and

Hannah Betts: 59:21

there are there also, it's true and but there are so there's so much hidden stuff that people don't see behind this commercial that everybody just goes, Oh my god. That looked like so much fun. And it was actually one of the scariest guys that I've done. Yeah, I was smiling, but that so there was a commercial. It was for Carnival cruises. I'm in a helicopter, and they're actually featuring me. I'm not doubling someone, and I jump out of a helicopter. I kind of fly over the top of the cruise ship. It's in the Dominican Republic and and we make it look as though I landed the parachute into a swimming pool. What I actually did was jump off a platform we cut and because the the pool was too. Died that the wind conditions were right, it would have been an extremely, extremely tricky maybe, maybe get it right stunt that we just weren't prepared to risk. But the end result is me, you know, smiling, jumping out of a helicopter, looking like a badass, landing in a pool, you know. And everything's great. The prep that went into that was just so many production meetings, getting different kinds of equipment together. Me wanting to go back, try, you know, on my own time, back to my home drop zone, because I hadn't skydived for a while, and I just wanted to get really familiar with all the safety and basics. Again, I've got, I got no problem being a world champion skydiver and then going to my mentor, hey, I want to go back all the basics, please. Because it's been a while, it's I just think it's so important for people never to lose that feeling of you're never you're never too good to go back to the beginning again when things

Lynn: 1:00:56

smart. If you say that, because in pilot, for example, we have to stay current.

Hannah Betts: 1:01:00

And that's the same with skydiving. You do have to stay current as well, and it will will diminish. They will diminish. And the if I'm being honest, that the free fall side of things is not difficult at all, but where you can come into problems is flying a parachute, or your safety drills, just a lot of stuff that you need to really stay calm and make decisions quickly when you're under a parachute, if you're not in the right place, because we don't have engines, we're only going down. We can't circle again, right? If we don't like our approach, there's no do overs and the wind, we're at the mercy of the wind direction. So I was jumping out of it's and this is part of my prep is it was a lot of unknowns. We had planned landing areas, but because we didn't fully understand the winds in that part of the island, and it's one of those things that you don't know until you do the jump for the first time. And we had alternate landing areas prepared depending on what the wind conditions may or may not be. We can get an idea from the reports, but you never truly know. But part of my prep and I actually videoed myself doing this, because I remember thinking, this is really important for people to understand. I went over and over just my opening sequence, but even to the point that I went over the I talked myself through the pilot saying 8000 feet, and me getting nervous, and then the pilot saying, 10,000 feet. Me getting more nervous. Me checking my gear. This is all my drills in my head that I was going over and over again. Me looking out at the spot with my cameraman to check we're in the right place. Me reminding myself I have to smile when I get out of the plane, even though I'm terrified, like in my head, it was 321, smile, not 321. Exit. Exiting was going to happen regardless, checking out, going through the sequence that they wanted to, you know, for the to capture in frame where I was going to be, in regards to the lighting, making sure that I wasn't backlit, making sure that I was in the sun, and the cameraman was in front of me, keeping an eye on my altitude, and part of my drill was opening up my parachute, looking down and me not liking the picture, me not being where I thought I was going to be, and having to make quick, solid decisions without panicking. And I drilled that into my visualization, like not best case scenario, a little bit of a worst case scenario. And thank goodness I did, because when Craig and I, Craig's my videographer, we looked down, we had drifted about half a mile in free fall. The upper winds were that strong in free fall, the winds have moved us that far, and we ended up in a spot that was, let's just say, less than ideal, over terrain that you would not want to land. And the first thing I said to myself was, this was the point where you said you promised yourself you would not panic, you would breathe deep, and you would make some decisions. So it was. It was a familiar feeling of going, Oh, this is bad. It's okay, as opposed to it being a surprise, like, this is not the picture I was hoping for, you know, and it it, it was. It was some sketchy wind conditions. I landed fine that the because I was in a good frame of mind, I made a decision I knew was going to make it back to the spot that I needed to get to, landed next to a Longhorn cow in a field, which was hilarious, you know. And then there was other parts of the of that skydive that we really had to adjust for wind conditions that were actually really out, you know, incredibly uncomfortable for me, where we had to get out upwind over mountains. It just felt very exposed. But people only see the end result of me jumping out the helicopter and smiling. They don't understand all this. I still gotta land somewhere safely after I've done that, and then the jumping into the pool section, which seemed quite straightforward. Like to the outside. It wasn't completely straightforward, because inside the swimming pool, all these metal water cannons to simulate water shooting out of the pool violently to make it more comical when I hit the water. So there was a flash. Yeah, so, but, and the reason that happened is because there are all these huge metal basically death traps beneath me, surrounding me as I land in the pool. So every time I jumped in the pool, I had to make sure I landed in exactly the right spot, or I would have had a catastrophic injury. Yeah. So what people see me just going, woo, jumping into a pool, smiling. I'm actually every time looking going, okay, don't push out too far. Don't push out too small. Don't make 321, action. Amp you up more. So you push off more. You know, it's just, it's normal. So what just seems like a simple jump into a pool, that there's always more, there's always more than meets the eye with the with the end product. And I, and I just think that's a big lesson for people to take away all the time.

Lynn: 1:06:03

Yeah, it goes back to what you were talking about comparison, because then somebody's going to, like, try to dive into a pool and make your splash, for example, and they'll never make it because they don't have the hidden, can't

Hannah Betts: 1:06:15

realize that there's, yeah, exactly, there's a whole bunch. And this is,

Lynn: 1:06:19

this is, I mean, in today's society, you know, with social media, there is so much pressure to match what you see on camera, which is coming through social media, which is, you know, a few steps shy of movie life, but definitely not real life, that comparing ourselves to other people's lives on camera that are edited for the best moments, almost never edited for the worst moments. And you know, and no wonder we're all saying, oh, I should feel good all the time. I shouldn't be feeling this sensation of agitation or discomfort or whatever you want to call it. I should be just fine, and I should be able to do that. And the answer is, No, you're comparing yourself to the wrong thing.

Hannah Betts: 1:07:07

Yeah, you're comparing yourself to something that is not a reality, yeah, and it's so and I have to remind myself all the time, and if you have to stay in your lane, and you know, Brene Brown, Comparison is the thief of joy. It really it's just the most energy sapping, unproductive thing that you can do. And I catch myself in it constantly, but I pull myself out of it a lot quicker. I understand when I'm doing it now, where I used to live in it, I used to live in comparison, and it was crippling, absolutely crippling. And it's just such a such a pointless thing. We're all individuals with such unique attributes, and we all have something positive to contribute to this world. We're all so special, and we spend so much of our energy trying not to be that person and trying to imitate someone that you're not meant to be. What a waste

Lynn: 1:08:03

of time. I'm just sitting here kind of going, check, check, check, do I compare myself there, yes, do I compare myself there? Yes. Like, I do it all the time. Now, I catch myself more often, but I can't say I always successfully, like, break away, and I'm in a sport with water skiing, where the comparisons are really easy to see, because, yeah, how many movies did you get? And, you know, I remember, sometimes I cringe when I get off the dock and somebody says, Well, what'd you ski today? And it's like, I'll just try to say something for my own sake, better than yesterday, or I have work to do rather than number.

Hannah Betts: 1:08:41

Just say the number, yeah, you're auditioning. You're auditioning. Or, like, giving it, yeah, like, excuse it. It's, I think it's very hard in this day and age, just the way that we are just bombarded with other people's stuff, not to compare. I think it's unrealistic to think that we can just get out of that comparison zone all the time. I think it's just important to understand that we catch ourselves in it and want to do with it quicker. I mean, I'm sure there's people out there that are maybe out of it all the time. Unfortunately, I'm, I'm forced into social media because of my work. It's like I have a love hate relationship with it. And right now it's, yeah, it sucks. I wish I could delete all of it.

Lynn: 1:09:26

You know, it's funny that you said that. I've actually backed away. I'm not posting as much on Facebook or Instagram as I was before. I've kind of just doubled down on LinkedIn, because that's where most of my clients are and and as I I mean, at least weekly, I think I'm just going to back away all the way, and I'm like, Yeah, except for you know, you have a podcast, you have a book, it's kind of hard to, like, keep those things alive, if not completely step away. So

Hannah Betts: 1:09:55

I think it's just understanding, yeah, what it is for tool and. How it works with you, and I think that you, you just have to keep yourself on track to make sure it's a healthy use, and it doesn't pull you in into an unhealthy use. And it's, as you say, it's that you we're never going to have a balance all the time. This is something that I just loved so much from your presentation that stuck with me. And I tell people all the time, because it was something I struggled with that I thought I had to be balanced, or like, I'm not in this center place all the time. I'm not getting it right all the time. We're never balanced. You're constantly balancing. And the idea is to just try and keep that seesaw a little bit more level, rather than the huge highs and lows, but to think that you're just going to have this perfect horizontal line the whole time is the most really ridiculous thing. And so the idea of constantly balancing, yes, in a healthy way, as opposed to being balanced all the time, was honestly, like, revolutionary for me. So one of the things that I quote to people all the time when they when they're stressing themselves out about, like, Oh, I was eating so well last week, and now I'm terrible. Or, Oh, I haven't done this and I haven't done that. I'm like, hold on a minute. Have you like, have you gone to an extreme? No,

Lynn: 1:11:12

you know, the one time you're balanced is when you're no longer moving in your coffin.

Hannah Betts: 1:11:17

Be Exactly. But I just think the analogy was, was it's just, it's so important, it's never been explained to me that way either.

Lynn: 1:11:27

Well, I'm glad, I mean that was, that was in my horseback riding journey, perhaps the biggest thing, because I'd already been all about balance, but realized it had been only an intellectual opportunity until I had to actually face what I had done to myself, falling off that and whether I got back on and then you've got the literal balance of being on the horse, but there's so much metaphorical balance as well. And having a picture that kept yelling at me I don't want the horse to do the picture when all I wanted was the horse to stop and do the picture like Just please, perfect. And when you find out, like what you see in movies about horses, which is where I got all my knowledge, is as off as your description of what happened with the you know, helicopter. Yeah, right. We're not seeing reality.

Hannah Betts: 1:12:14

You're not seeing reality. And you've met, you've made up your own story in your head, and you've filled in the gaps without understanding. Yeah, this the same way we do. If we get into arguments or we, you know, we we start filling in the gaps of the stories that we're telling ourselves. It's not it's not true.

Lynn: 1:12:34

It's not true. We, if we really knew how much of what we think is reality are the assumptions of stories we're telling ourselves, yeah, going back to that sensation you were talking about, it's not the sensation, it's the story you tell about the sensation, exactly, and you change your story, yeah, right. And it changed your relationship,

Hannah Betts: 1:12:53

yeah, and exactly. And, you know, change the way we see things, the things we see changes Borik always talks about but, and I think that was the biggest takeaway from me, that the fear that I used to feel terrified me into feeling more fear, and now the fear that I feel, I'm like, cool, it's with me. I like it, yeah, I like it. Like

Lynn: 1:13:15

letting it like I like the distinction of it's informing versus interfering,

Hannah Betts: 1:13:21

yes, yeah, exactly. And when, when it, when I first feel it, I, like I said, trying not to observe, trying to observe it, rather than absorb it. I also treat it almost like a little distraction. Like, hold on a minute. Let me just put this feeling aside, this physical feeling. What is it that that my brain is trying to tell me right now that, you know, it's just a noise in the background. It's not something that's telling me to move immediately one way or another. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you calibrated it,

Lynn: 1:13:53

yeah. So, so what do you have coming up? Do you have anything we can be looking out for that you can talk about at this point between your speaking or your stuff, or any place you might be appearing that we can look for,

Hannah Betts: 1:14:06

um, possibly, well, I was just telling you about this. I just got, probably, by the time this airs, I just got a random call, potentially about jumping in a in a wedding dress for for a movie premiere promotion, which is random. I don't often get very many skydiving jobs. It just so happens that I just got a call about one right before I got on the this call with you. I'm trying to think what else is coming out right now? Nothing, nothing too crazy. There's just TV stuff that you quite often you're not going to see me because it's not me. I'm pretending to be somebody else.

Lynn: 1:14:44

Yeah, is there other I know? When I had Kansas Carradine on, she had just been on heartland, which is one of my favorite shows episode, and again, after she told me where she was and everything, I went back and watched, and you can't tell it's Kansas at all. No.

Hannah Betts: 1:15:01

Of doing our job

Lynn: 1:15:04

like I knew she was filling in for

Hannah Betts: 1:15:06

right? So, yeah, and, I mean, that's one of the huge things that I had to deal with. Being in Hollywood, you're literally compared when you're stunt doubling people, you're matched up with someone height, weight, you know it's, it can be really, you have to really have a strong sense of self, especially when it comes to, you know, size and women and all those kind of things. So we're constantly being directly compared to the very person that you have to stunt double for, yeah, because they

Lynn: 1:15:35

are looking for a match, yeah, yeah. I mean, they're not gonna double for somebody who's a totally different body type or

Hannah Betts: 1:15:41

different ethnicity or, yeah, looks different, but, yeah, no, that's great that you didn't recognize who your Candice was, because that's that means we're doing our job. We're blending in with the character.

Lynn: 1:15:52

And see, that's kind of the weird that's like the weird dichotomy, right? Because you're in an industry that's sort of known for the exposure it brings you. Yeah, well, then you already know you're not going to have that. Yeah,

Hannah Betts: 1:16:07

it's very interesting, because I most stunt people aren't really in it to, you know, be on camera or feel the fame. It's just we enjoy the job that we're doing. And it is quite funny. Just, I'm so used to looking away from camera intentionally, or having my hair down, hiding my face, or falling in a way where you can't see my face, which is really funny when I did this Oscars commercial, because I kept getting told of like, my instinct when I came out from under the water was to have my back to camera like, Anna, this is about you. We actually want to see like, sorry, sorry,

Lynn: 1:16:43

yeah, because you mentioned that, like having to be in the right place for the smile and the lighting and all of that stuff,

Hannah Betts: 1:16:48

yeah, yeah, there's, there's so much more going on behind the scenes. And people see it's like, yeah, it's a lot more. Even there's nothing simple, you know, there's no such thing as an easy stunt. That's something that we always say, because that's when you get hurt, when you start thinking, Oh, this is a nothing thing. That's when you're gonna hurt. That's when you get hurt.

Lynn: 1:17:09

Well, you said something that triggered a question for me, which is, what is it that does drive people to enter your industry? What makes you want to be a stunt woman, or what made you want to be a stunt woman?

Hannah Betts: 1:17:18

I know, gosh, that's a million dollar question. I'm sure a lot of psychologists can have a field day. And I ask myself this question all the time, and I think I talked about that in my presentation. When I when I talk about being brave, doesn't necessarily I'm not talking about doing a huge stunt, because that can often become attached with outside validation and ego. And I'd be lying. I would be lying personally, if I didn't say I can sometimes still be driven for the wrong reasons, for the for the outside validation. You know the look at you, look how cool you are. I think, I think a lot of people naturally get into stunts because they have excelled at what sport they've done genuinely, you'll often find, you know, someone's a world champion motocross person or a martial artist or a gymnast or a skydiver, and that has led them into stunts. And then they get more well rounded. They understand how to train, if that makes sense, they've already excelled at sports, so they kind of understand the formula, and they have great body awareness, so it's easy for them to kind of pick up new skills. I one, one common theme that I will say that stunt performers have other than a little bit of an ego and drive for outside validation, is you're around a bunch of grown ups that have not lost their sense of play, which I find delightful. They're not immature. They're not drilling in junkies. They're not risk takers. They're actually incredibly professional people, hard working people are working hard outside of the camera to hone in their skill. They're dialing in action that's incredibly, you know, complicated with so many different things that are going on, whether it be, you know, rigging and driving and just all these safety things that you have to put in place. But so there's this absolute level of professionalism with a bunch of big kids. And I like that, that there is still such a thing they haven't lost their sense of play. And I think that's just an important thing that as grown ups, we need to, we need to carry with us. Remember, Christine Dixon did that whole presentation on how important play was, and we and we lose it, and that is something that I definitely enjoy about our industry.

Lynn: 1:19:33

I love to play. And, you know, I've actually discovered when I go catch horses, and since I don't have my own horse, I'm often going to catch somebody else's horse, sometimes in a big pasture, sometimes you know, and sometimes I know them, sometimes I don't, but I've learned if I have a halter in my hand, I come out with a sense of play. And if I say to a horse, you want to go play, I've never had one turn away me. They're like, yeah, I

Hannah Betts: 1:19:57

want to go play. Yeah. And then you what? Those people going on there. I gotta catch him. I hope he doesn't run away from me. What do you think is going to happen? Right?

Lynn: 1:20:07

Wow, I call that agenda brain, and I totally can have that too, right? Funny when you talk about having a sense of play, and it's the same with people. I remember years ago, I had a coach, I was in a session, I was in like a some kind of leadership session, and they said, you know, what do you think your purpose is? And they gave us a couple of ways of finding it, but the first one was literally close your eyes and asked what you thought it was when you were eight years old. And I closed my eyes and immediately was have fun and help people. And if I look at my life today, it's like, that's my life now, some people look at Linda has too much fun. It's like, she didn't work very hard. It's like, No, I do. I am helping people too.

Hannah Betts: 1:20:53

Yeah, sorry, I'm the the audience can't see me just gritting from ear to ear, right? But if it wasn't fun, or there wasn't a sense of play, why on earth would you not you know what? That's what we should be doing. We, like of you, can't have fun all the time. Obviously, we can't have joy without feeling sadness. But I do think if, if, if we're not having fun, and what are we doing? And if we're not, we need to really figure out what's stopping us from from

Lynn: 1:21:28

that. And actually, honestly, if it's something I still have to do, and I wouldn't normally call it fun, I find a way to make it fun, or I find a way to make it at least satisfying, like I had to pressure wash 100 chairs, and I had to move them. And, you know, it was physically challenging, but I was like, You know what? There is nothing more satisfying than seeing dirt disappear, you know. And then I made a game of, like, looking at all right, how am I going to move the chairs? Where do they need to be? And just went into, like, breaking it down step by step, just putting the same things I use for applying pressure and something fun, quote, unquote, I used for something that wasn't necessarily fun. And I ended the day very satisfied. I was tired too, pressure washing. But

Hannah Betts: 1:22:14

you make it, you make it part of the dance. You can see it. And I think that's, that's a big thing about that. I think ranch living has taught me that about life as there's the jobs are never done, right? They're never done. So if you're constantly thinking, I've got to do this, I've got to get that done. I got to do that as if it's just this never ending to do list, that's just a miserable way. And I was guilty of that for a long time, and then I just realized this is part of the life. This is part of the dance. Change how you do the things and accept that this is part of life all the time. You're never going to have this list done. It's always going to be there. And now you can choose how you're going to move through that. If it's this desperate list that you're just trying to get rid of,

Lynn: 1:22:56

and it can either be a burden or it can lift you up, and it's all about your mindset, yes, yes, and yeah, oh gosh, because you're talking about tasks. And yet, do we go through life going, I cannot believe I have to brush my teeth again, oh my god, I have to comb my hair again. And it's like, yeah, you have to put load the dishes in the dishwasher, and you have to, and you have to, and you have to, like, it's like, I love the idea of calling it part of the dance,

Hannah Betts: 1:23:23

yeah. So it's really great. I wish I had the quote it, damn it. I'll have to find it, but it's something to do, yeah. The end is, or you can treat it as part of a dance. And those it changed everything for me. Like, yep, this is how it is,

Lynn: 1:23:36

well. And in the same vein, I heard a quote the other day that said, instead of praying for an easy life, pray for the strength to live the life you've been given. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, Oh, if that doesn't define my transformation and my my and I don't say I'm transformed, but I feel like I'm transforming. It's that, you know, beginning to see the things that not going well as part of it, yeah,

Hannah Betts: 1:24:04

but it's only because you're courageous enough to lean into the discomfort, but look what you got on the other side. It's just keep recovering. It's it's constant. It's never ending. I'm in the middle of it. It's so layered and nuanced, you know, and fear is as well. I was talking to you earlier about I can talk about how brave I am of doing all these things, and I've learned to make these hard decisions in life, but now I'm going through that stage of the fear of, is it okay to not be exceptional, like the fear of just being seen as Hannah and nothing and not all these cool accolades all around me just strip bare. That's another fear that I'm leaning into now, being good enough without all this external buzz around me. So, you know, it's very easy to think, oh, that person's got her life together. I'm like, No, I'm going through an existential crisis right now, and it's all to do with fears. Well. That,

Lynn: 1:25:00

because I know that feeling of like, okay, how do I make myself special? How do I make myself stand out and like, that was my corporate journey, because it was the people who stood up that got up ahead and, you know, whatever, whatever. And I kept wanting to climb and climb and climb and just being somebody who just shows up

Hannah Betts: 1:25:20

every day. That should be enough,

Lynn: 1:25:25

but, but sometimes it's not. I get that. And, you know, I had, I had, it's some so interesting, because I had a day like that Not long ago, and I got to the end of the day and I was very tired, and I was like, What did I even do today? And then I looked at what I had done that day, and it was like, Okay, you're just missing the point. Because you actually had perhaps the most perfect day ever, but weren't like, running and under pressure and in front of a bunch of people while you were doing it,

Hannah Betts: 1:25:57

you're just yeah, there it is. I mean, mine's a very obvious one, like, I just had a childhood where, like, you know, love was given upon me from performance and winning and being the best person, and that's why I'm unraveling now. But you know, we can always, we can always go back to where it stems from. It's just whether you're brave enough to really get into it and feel it and and re navigate it. So I definitely just want people to understand that it's just a constant work in progress. And just when you you think you've got one thing kind of settled in your life, then another thing pops up. But

Lynn: 1:26:35

aren't we set? Go ahead, I remember. I've got a note I'll remember.

Hannah Betts: 1:26:41

No, no, please, please.

Lynn: 1:26:43

Okay, so I think the word that we're not using yet, or to haven't talked about, is the word pressure, the pressure to be exceptional, the pressure for anything, the whatever the pressure is, is just is. And in that podcast summit where I spoke, Philippe Moran. Was it? Philippe massetti lete spoke long writer who did what 16, 17,000 miles from Canada to Brazil, had a such a good speech, such a good speech. And he's such a pro on the stage. But he said he talked about his depression after it was all over, and this was after he talked about the pressure of the trip and facing grizzly bears on the highway, and where do we get water for the horses, and where am I going to spend the night? And, you know, you think about it, he just basically had, what, two years of nothing but pressure, yeah, and then

Unknown: 1:27:40

stillness.

Lynn: 1:27:43

And it I wrote on my remember this moment so clearly I wrote, deep pressure equals depression, question mark, and it made me wonder if we're not also hardwired to always have some form of pressure, like don't so do we need exceptionalism? Probably not. But do we need pressure? Probably so

Hannah Betts: 1:28:09

I think so. I think it all comes down to intent of what that pressure is going to give you on the other side, or why you what you want at the end of the other side of that pressure. And does it come from inward going out, or does it come from outward going in? And if the pressure that you're constantly feeling is from an outside source, so that you can prove that you're good enough, worthy enough, lovable enough, then that's where it's all going wrong. If it's coming from inward out, because it's truly what brings you joy and fulfills your soul, regardless of what the outside world thinks about it. Fantastic.

Lynn: 1:28:51

Okay, so I'm going, I'm glad we're recording this, because I'm going to be writing that down afterwards, because she did a better job of defining what I call a proving mindset versus sending mindset than I've probably ever done, because that proving that that we kind of get conditioned into through school and work and social media and accolades and all that when we're when we're working from that mindset, I do think that's a form of pressure that's not healthy,

Hannah Betts: 1:29:21

no. And then, and then you need to deal with, and if that's what you've been brought up, thinking that to be worthy and lovable and seen to to achieve, to achieve, to be the best or the most high performing, the idea then of being seen, the fear of being seen just as you, as a human being, is terrifying to many people, myself included, and that's what I'm dealing with now, and that's the outside in versus inside out feeling. And I just, I got, I encourage so many people to do the Terry reel. Self esteem, course, because it just really talks about just your worthiness as is, like everybody is born onto this planet just as worthy as the other person. Yes, there may be people that do things better than you, or have a higher moral standard than you that does not make your innate worth any more or less than them. And a thing that I found so healthy is somebody was questioning was, Is it wrong to want these things, to achieve these things, or to be good at these things? And what I loved how he described was, you can be great at things or want that as long as you allow it to move through you, that those achievements move through you. They don't settle upon you as your identity or validation. Oh, that's good, right? Yeah. And I was like, Oh crap. It's just, it's, it's so important to understand what the drive is,

Lynn: 1:31:01

because settling on you is building up your armor as a building up strength to not need the armor like you need you. We need a lot of strength to navigate life. We need it. But is it an outer shell that we're built like that, or is coming from the inner tools we were given at birth, and have those, rather than what's being put on us exactly. That's beautiful way of describing, oh, my goodness,

Hannah Betts: 1:31:32

it's it's so important. That's something I'm definitely digging into right now.

Lynn: 1:31:37

You know, that's my life's work. It's digging into it for myself, and, yeah, with probably why we are so connected, like, why completely,

Hannah Betts: 1:31:45

completely. But I think that the more you get comfortable being uncomfortable, that I find it even the hard things now, you know, when you you kind of feel like you're unraveling, even though you're in it, and it feels awful. There's just this knowing that on the other side, you're going to come back on the other side, lighter, better, happier, and it'll happen again. But each time you sink down, you come out a better form of yourself, a happier, lighter person each time. And I don't ever want people to think like doing the work is just disgusting and a struggle, and it's not worth it. It just

Lynn: 1:32:19

really is. You know you perhaps the thing that everybody should leave this podcast with is the thing you said earlier about fear. If I, if I still jump off the cliff, I felt the fear if I climb back down the cliff, I felt the fear. You're gonna feel the discomfort either way, unless you're masking it. And if you're masking the discomfort you're you're giving away your opportunity to build your inner strength and tools. Yes, yeah. So well, go ahead and feel it and yes. On the other side, then, instead of beating yourself up for not doing it as well as you could have, claim the endorphin kick, because I think a lot of people miss it,

Hannah Betts: 1:33:00

yeah, claim it and get clarity on the other side. Oh, yeah,

Lynn: 1:33:04

yeah. And, I mean, I say get endorphin kicks for doing little, little things, right? Like, you know, I joke about, I putting the bot the lids back on my vitamin bottles in the morning. You know, when I'm, like, in a, in a, like, gulping space, I come back in later, and I find all of the caps are halfway on right. If I'm in a mindful space, I have given myself an endorphin kick as I screwed every lid back on properly completion.

Hannah Betts: 1:33:31

And you're present in that moment in time as well. You're right there. Your brain is in 10 steps ahead. That's

Lynn: 1:33:37

exactly it. I'm presence. And then you have the presence in the moments of pressure, because your brain already knows how to be there.

Hannah Betts: 1:33:44

Yes, and I think that's something I'm learning as well, how much you can practice throughout the day just doing stuff that it doesn't have to be spectacular, but it can be such a huge learning tool, and that that's a perfect analogy just putting the lids back on you of your vitamin supplements.

Lynn: 1:34:01

Yeah, exactly. Well. So tell people, I know you're beginning to start a speaking career, and as a result, people are gonna be able to find you. So tell people how they can find you, and if they want to follow you, how to follow you because you're fun to follow.

Hannah Betts: 1:34:17

That is the goal. Yes, I am in the process of building a website. It's one of those things that I did the goal post, like I'm going to get this done immediately. It did. But I am on LinkedIn as Hannah bets, and I am also on social media. Instagram is Hannah bets one, and Facebook, I am just Hannah bets. And pretty easy to find. It's fairly obvious that it's me, yeah, and then eventually I will have a website up in regards to what I'm hoping to start doing, more more speaking, more speaking arrangements, talking about these very subjects, just from a just really want to lean into the point of fear and vulnerability. Take that myth away. That people like me are fearless.

Lynn: 1:35:03

I am going to do a shout out as we're ending this to my corporate people, who occasionally are hiring speakers to come speak, and I know the worlds that they're living in, because that's what I came from. And there's a reason that Lynn, the corporate person, jumped up higher than anybody else during your speech, because you have a message, I think that people who are struggling in business need to hear, and there is something that gives you a validation, because you have done scary and dangerous things that a lot of us aren't out there doing. But I 100% believe that you have found, I don't want to call it a formula, but you have found a set of skills and principles and mindset to navigate to the other side of fear. And so for those of you who hire speakers, I'm going to tell you, this is a woman you need to be hiring. So

Hannah Betts: 1:35:58

that means well to me, coming from you. Thank you.

Lynn: 1:36:02

It means the world for me, for you to have made the time to have this conversation. I'm so grateful we got to do it.

Hannah Betts: 1:36:08

I could speak for hours with you.

Lynn: 1:36:11

We'll talk after about how we can keep this out. But y'all want me in on this one. Say thank you to all the listeners of the podcast, and if you've enjoyed this podcast, be sure to share it with your friends. If you want to continue following me, you can always go to my website@lyncarns.com and sign up for the coaching digest. I've got something coming out at least once a week. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations, and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now, what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today. You.