#97 Stevie Delahunt: Balancing Fear and Confidence in Endurance Sports

My guest for this episode is Stevie Delahunt, returning for the 3rd time. We spoke about this time last year, after she finished the endurance race known as Tevis a 100 mile endurance ride on the Western States Trail in California. This ride is legendary, with only 39%  of the entrants completing the full race this year. Stevie was one of those riders, along with 2 other riders competing on her horses. She had a total of 5 horses in the race, and the other 2 horses made it to mile 94. This is just an incredible feat, especially considering that her focus was more on process than on getting the buckle. 

This year, she not only finished Tevis, she followed that the next weekend by finishing a half Ironman triathlon. We spent a fair bit of time in this podcast talking about what it takes to finish two such grueling races. 

We went pretty deep in this episode, including speaking about Stevie’s theory that all truths are paradoxes, how to manage your doubts and outs, the value of having process versus outcome goals and so much more. I’ve been out to Oregon to ride with Stevie 4 times, and each time I go, gain more strength in my mental tools, have fun and learn a lot. Stevie walks her talk.

Here’s what Stevie says about herself:

Stevie Delahunt graduated Michigan State University with two degrees and an intent to pursue law school at Georgetown University where she had been accepted. She switched gears and went to the French Pastry School of Chicago to learn how to do wedding cakes and set up shop in the Windy City. While in Chicago she learned of the world’s toughest horse race, the Mongol Derby, and she again let life guide her into constant change. On the other side of successfully completing the Mongol Derby she took a job with a startup company in Rhode Island and learned coding and marketing for the online business. 

The endeavor in the world of start-ups gave her strong leadership skills and an education in business models she applied to starting her second and current business of horse related retreats. 

  Stevie’s current business encompasses several facets of the horse world including beginner riding instruction, advanced Bootcamp style retreats for riders wishing to participate in difficult horse riding survival races around the world, horse shoeing, and endurance racing with horses which includes doing the worlds toughest one day one hundred mile horse race; the Tevis Cup. 

 Stevie believes that adversity is a necessary part of life and being prepared for adversity as well as creating it for oneself is essential and is a tool she uses in teaching both horses and humans, both young and old. 

I hope you enjoy this episode with Stevie Delahunt.

Transcript

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative Spirits Unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life and now here's your host, Lynn Carnes,

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the Creative Spirits Unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Stevie Delahunt, returning for the third time we spoke about this time last year after she finished the endurance race known as Tevis, 100 mile endurance ride on the western states trail in California. This ride is legendary, with this year, only 39% of the entrants completing the full race. Stevie was one of those riders, along with two other riders competing on her horses. She had a total of five horses in the race, and the other two horses made it to mile 94 and by the way, she was riding with two juniors who were two young women under the age of 18. It's just an incredible feat, especially considering that her focus was actually more on process than on getting the buckle, which is sort of the prize you get at the end of the race. This year, though, she not only finished Tevis, she followed that the next weekend by finishing a half Iron Man Triathlon. We spent a fair bit of time in this podcast talking about what it takes to finish two such grueling races. We went pretty deep, including speaking about Stevie's theory that all truths are paradoxes, how to manage your doubts and outs. I love that idea. The value of having process versus outcome goals and just so many more nuances and distinctions around having a strong mindset. I've been out to Oregon to ride with Stevie four times, and each time I go, I gain more strength in my mental tools, but I also have fun learn a lot, and can say this Stevie Delahunt walks her talk. Here's what Stevie says about herself. Stevie Delahunt graduated Michigan State University with two degrees and an intent to pursue law school at Georgetown University, where she had been accepted, she switched gears and went to French pastry School of Chicago to learn how to do wedding cakes and set up shop in the Windy City. While in Chicago, she learned the world's toughest horse race, the Mongol Derby, and she again, let her life guide her into constant change. On the other side of successfully completing the Mongol Derby, she took a job with a startup company in Rhode Island and learned coding and marketing for the online business, the endeavor and the world of startups, gave her strong leadership skills and an education in business models she applied to starting her second and current business of horse related retreats. Stevie's current business encompasses several several facets of the horse world, including beginner riding instruction, advanced boot camp style retreats for riders wishing to participate in difficult horse riding, survival races around the world, horseshoeing and endurance racing with horses, which includes doing the world's toughest one day 100 mile horse race, the Tevis cup. Stevie believes that adversity is a necessary part of life, and being prepared for adversity, as well as creating it for oneself, is essential and is a tool she uses in teaching both horses and humans, both young and old. Well, a lot of that describes what I've done with Stevie, and I will, as I said, she walks her talk. So I do hope you enjoy this episode with Stevie Delahunt. Alright, Stevie Delahunt, welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast.

Stevie: 3:45

Thanks for having me back again. Round three. I love

Lynn: 3:48

having you back. I was thinking today. This is number three. Yeah, we did this about a year ago after you had completed Tevis, and that's that plus a half Iron Man prompted this second one, but I want to start with that because, start with Tevis because, you know, it's a fairly well known race, and you've just completed it, but just maybe start with giving, like, your high level view of what the race was like this time. And then I'd love to dive into the mindset things that you worked on. Because I think sometimes when we finish something like the Tevis, where it's seen by everybody, it's in the unseen, that is what makes us get there. So with that intro, I'm going to let you take it away. Sure.

Stevie: 4:37

So for those of you who don't know, and this is maybe the first podcast you'd listen because I feel like synonymous with me talking on a podcast. Tevis usually comes up because we happen to bring a large amount of horses every year Tevis. So Tevis is the world's toughest 100 mile horse race. All sanctioned 100 mile endurance horse races around the world have 24 hours to complete. Uh, they have holds along the way where the horses get vet checked and have mandatory time that actually counts against your finish time. So for example, if you have an hour hold that takes away from your 24 hours to complete. So if the race starts at 5:15am on a Saturday, it ends at 515 on a Sunday. And that is universal. However, Tevis is a super tough, 100 mile race, and it's tough because it has 22,000 feet, you heard that, right? 22,000 feet of descent and 14,000 of incline, which means you're almost constantly going up or down. And having just recently done it again and done it with my friend Carmen, who has actually ridden the Tevis every time we rented horses. So this was her fifth Tevis. The two of us were like, do you remember it being this steep, like every we were just like, do you remember this? And the trail does change, like, a tiny bit every year, depending on what trails are safest across and what trail works been done. But we were, yeah, we were laughing about it, that it felt like rockier and steeper than than before they definitely we also had the river was much higher. There's a river crossing at about like 90 miles, 91 miles in, and this year was super high. So I'll have to, like, tell the crossing story as well. It's kind of funny. But yeah, we were just like this. This tougher than we thought it was before. I think so. So, yeah, it's, it's the world's toughest 100 mile horse race. We've been super lucky and gotten a little bit of notoriety. Because while we don't go to compete, we go to complete. We have had a successful we finished five out of five horses in 2023 we finished four out of four last year when we did the podcast recapping that. And then this year, we brought five horses again, and we actually got all five to mile 94 and we finished three. So I was very happy the really successful results in the last three years. And I've totally gone away from the main question by just like, sort of focusing here on what Tevis is. Yeah, well,

Lynn: 7:09

that's good, because I think you're right. A lot of people listening might not even know what it is. I didn't, but that's that's great context for what the what's to come. And in you know that the two horses that you talked about that made it tonight, mile 94 let's just talk about what that takes. That's so many miles, and one of those horses had never been to Tevis. Is that right? Yeah,

Stevie: 7:35

that's correct. So the one horse that had never been to Tevis, mind you, this year, two of the two of the five of us were 15 year old junior riders, which means, as a junior, anyone under, oh, man, actually, I think it's 18 or a certain amount of miles, has to be accompanied by an adult, which is a great goal to have, but it can Make riding a race like Tevis really complex of being It's called being sponsored when you're a junior rider riding with an adult, like, if the adult rider gets pulled then you have to, like, transfer over to another adult to be able to get your completion. So we kind of like safeguarded, and had three adults and two juniors with the idea that somebody would probably make it through as an adult rider to sponsor those two girls. And one of the 15 year old girls was riding one. I mean, they were all riding our horses, but one of those horses was a horse that we renamed full send, because that's his personality. Gives 150% to everything he does. And send was a horse that was given to us actually about a year and a half before Tevis and was a free horse that had been surrendered by several trainers for different behavioral issues, of which at our farm, he really never exhibited any of those, which was kind of amazing, and he just seemed To embrace endurance fully and and love doing it, and so that was kind of an amazing feat. The only reason he even got pulled at mile 94 was that he had scratched his leg going across one of the river crossings. And just had, like, a slight offness. Even had, like, the vets, like, voted on it, like it wasn't an immediate pull, like they represented several times, and like, took a while for them to make the decision to pull him, but they were just very conscientious of making sure that every horse across the finish line this year, like, had a very high chance of you can get pulled at the finish of Tevis. That's something people don't know, but your horse must be, quote, unquote, fit to continue. So at this last vet check at mile 94 they were really stringent and making sure that every horse that crossed under the banner being like, nationally televised, through YouTube channels, that they looked good. They just wanted to really, like emphasize horse welfare, which I can totally stand behind. You know, I feel pretty good about you. 94 miles, even though that doesn't come with a buckle, and that's still a DNF did not finish. It's still pretty amazing feat, and we know he could have done it. So that was it was good enough for me, to be honest, and the girl that the 15 year old girl that was riding him, she's done quite a lot of riding on him all season, and just really excited for their journey and all the stuff that they got to accomplish together.

Lynn: 10:24

And I'm thinking, you know, the thing I keep thinking about is that at mile 94 what time was it like, 430 or three or four in the morning?

Stevie: 10:34

Yeah, around around, then you have to leave out of there by 4am like, there's like, cut offs for coming in, and also cut offs for leaving. And they have those dual cut offs Because oftentimes, I was saying there's like the two one hour holds in Tevis, which is very low for 100 miles, but again, very difficult race. So they're trying to give you 22 hours of ride time. But oftentimes it's up to the riders to make decisions to hold themselves longer. So like, you could get into lower it was called lower lower quarry vet check at 94 and you could technically get in at three and stay there and let your horse eat and drink and not leave till 4am so like that's why they have to cut off some both ends there, which is a strategic decision. And we did a lot of things like that, like waiting in the river. We have kind of a game plan that we follow every year and includes, like, taking quite a bit of time at the river, at swinging bridge if we have a or taking more time at Devil's Thumb, which is once you come out of these crazy canyons right before the chicken hawk or Deadwood vet check. I think that's it. Yeah. So there's like, all these, like, strategic ways to ride Tavis, depending on what your goal is.

Lynn: 11:45

The the thing I was thinking about is, when it's decision time of three in the morning, the way my brain works is, Well, isn't that bedtime is there, is there a way I could maybe go to bed?

Stevie: 11:56

Oh my gosh, yeah. You know that was, that was the so this is a really interesting aspect, speaking about, like, nighttime riding, I have never so I like to follow Ultra running. I've only done 150 K race. I'm planning a 50 miler coming up. But essentially, my life being endurance horses trends towards me not having the time to truly train to be an ultra runner. But I love, like, the science and understanding of how Ultra running works for humans, because it's really transferable to horses. So I'm always following, following that world and that ideology. Oh, man, I had a point here

Lynn: 12:36

talking about going to sleep, so I was thinking about sleep.

Stevie: 12:40

Yes, thank you. That real, that helped, that gave me, that gave me the fuel I needed. So I in that I've always listened to ultra runners talking about hallucinating out on the trail because they're awake for so long, and I've never had that happen in 100 mile race again, like if you're starting at 515 for Tevis, Tevis being like the most sleep loss that I experienced in a horse race. We always get up at like 3am so that we're right on time, and then you're up again until like 515 like at least 530 the next day, if not six. And in all those and all these years of doing Tevis and crewing it and everything, I've never hallucinated. Never had that experience. And this year, all five of us hallucinated. And we hallucinated. I wouldn't know if say necessarily hallucinations are quite the right word for what we all experience, but we would like be seeing things out of our peripheral vision. And we found out that we were like seeing the same things, which was like, Carmen was riding in front of me on hero, and she happened to see it. She was like, she was saying one of the girls in the back, Jocelyn Terry, who was riding Sonic, our Arabian cross, she was like, can you tell where the trail is going? Because, like, back here, I can't tell, and I'm getting, like, seasick. And Carmen's like, No, I can't tell, because you can't really have a headlamp on at Tevis, and it's totally like by moonlight, and up to the horse and like to Carmen and I were in the front. It was like, Carmen and then myself, we both couldn't tell if the trail would be going up, down, side to side. Like, very strange experience of the trail. And we were saying that, and Carmen's like, yeah. I mean, I just saw an old woman that turned out to be leaves on the side of the trail. And I go, Carmen, that's insane. I just saw the same old woman like This is bizarre. So what also seems crazy is there's this amazing guy who's been on Warwick Schiller podcast, and who I've gone and studied with, and who is a body worker, and his name is Tom Mays, and he's been our secret weapon the last couple of years. I always have Tom come and work on the horses right before Tevis when we're in cool California at my friend's place. And this year, I said, you know, we're trying to take 215 year old girls through this like the trail is really dangerous. Can you just call. In all the horses ancestors, and call in all the guides, please. That's like, all I want, like, you can work on them, but like, at the end, we did, like a whole, like ceremonial moment of like, calling in ancestors and calling in guides to keep us safe. And that was what was so bizarre, is none of us has ever hallucinated before, and all five of us did on the ride, which was bizarre. And including, including, we thought this pony, we weren't sure if he was going to cross the river, and he ended up crossing the river. And Alina, who was riding him, said that when they got to the river, she saw these horses run up to the river like with her, and then disappear like super strange experience. So that was like

Lynn: 15:44

Tony, did you know? Because I've been with him facing a river crossing, and he went one way, but not the other. So he did cross the river, though that's been Yeah,

Stevie: 15:56

so I was thinking in my head, I so right before we had him crossing rivers pretty well, and then two weeks before Tavis, he suddenly was like, I'm not crossing rivers anymore. And like, Alina went out, and Alina and I went out and practiced with him on river crossings. And man, we found out he can jump like he was clearing like eight feet of river without touching it. Finally, like, Okay, well, you know, he's going to be tired at 91 miles. Hopefully he'll just cross. And I was like all the other river crossings, he probably can jump over. And this hero is super aware of how much water crossing there is in Devis. I mean, there must be, like, at least 15 streams that you cross, and he jumped most of them, one of them, she had to get off and walk across, and then he jumped, and, like, ran into her, and they both kind of fell, which was where he scratched his leg. And luckily, she was okay, um, but I was thinking, man, if, if he's gonna get pulled I really hope it's before this river crossing, because I had like, all these imagination or like possibilities that, like, what if he panics and dumps her, and then, like, we're chasing this pony, and then we won't make the cut offs? And, like, what will be my strategy? And I was like, You know what I'll do? I'll cross with Carmen. I'll give Carmen Alex, or Alexander Hamilton, the horse I'm riding. I'll get I'll have her hold him, and I can wade back across because it's usually, like, chest deep, which I think this year, it was actually way deeper. But I was like, I can wait across, and I can grab him, and then she can, like, ride and ask him to go across, because he leads pretty well. So that was, like, my backup plan. But I was just, you know, had all these plans in my head. And then I was like, All right, at this point, you've got an idea, like, stop worrying about it. I was like, there's going to be no like, I can sit here and ruminate on this for miles and miles and hours and hours ahead of time. I was like, we'll just see what happens. And then when we got up to the river, I just told her to keep your reins tight. If he gets in just he's going to probably panic a little, but just send him straight towards the other bank. And we had three riders in front of us that weren't in our group, and they got into the river, and the one horse starts rearing up, because immediately, as it got in, it was a shorter horse, the water went over its back. It was that deep. Oh my gosh, yeah, panicked. And I was like, Oh crap, the river is really high. When Sen gets in, it's gonna go over all of him. And we get, like, hero gets into the river. And then Alex and we had an order, like, our riding order for most of the day was hero, Alex, Chuck Norris. These are the horses names, full send. And then Sonic, and we got in. And I just said, like, keep his nose right on Chuck's bum so that he doesn't really see what's happening and he'll just get in. And that's exactly what happened. He got in, like, realized, like, the water, like, came up over his back, and he just started, like, porpoising. And because he started panicking, all the horses in front, like, started panicking, like, Why is he running? Like, what? What's attacking him? So like, all our horses were, like, dolphining across this, like, Deep River. And so we're all hanging on and like, the full sand is like ping ponging into all of us, like across this deep river. And Alina is amazing, and she's just laughing, and she's like, sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, because we had all been like, slap silly, exhausted up until this point. And like, kind of talking about our hallucinations, our shared and separate hallucinations that we were having. And so she's like, giggling like crazy. And I'm like, hang on, hang on. And we, like, all get to the other side, and like, Jocelyn and Sonic. Sonic is just like, such a steady Eddie, 18 year old Arabian Appaloosa, cross, done Been there. Done that. He was like, standing on the bank with Jocelyn, and they just, like, calmly crossed, like, behind all of this chaos, and we get to the other side, and we've passed to these other three horses in the river. I have no idea, but it feels like it's like, it's a pretty significant like, not only deep but wide crossing, and it's. And they they do this really cool thing where they drop glow sticks, because it's not straight across. You actually have to do like an S shape, like a backwards S shape, to cross on the highest part of the river, like following sand bars. And so we've passed these other horses in the river, because it's like 200 yards across, or something crazy like that. We get to the other side, just start, like, whooping, because we were, like, so excited that we all made it. But it was, it was funny and and it was interesting that we felt like Lena felt like she saw horses coming down with her to the river, especially after we had this experience of asking Tom to call in their ancestors.

Lynn: 20:41

Well, that do you know that I want to go back. I love this story, by the way, and I have two questions. One I have to ask immediately, which is, at that depth, are the horses still able to keep their feet on the ground, or are they kind of having to swim you across? Oh,

Stevie: 20:55

they it was deep. But for I was on Alex, who's 15 one, and he was able to stand and, like, push off the bottom. I think even, like, send, who's 14 one, he can stand on his hind legs and, like, push. So he was like, kind of porpoising. So I think it was like, I would guess, like, four something, feet deep, five feet deep. But yeah, it just seemed a lot deeper than we've experienced. In the past.

Lynn: 21:24

That's, that's, I've never crossed across a lot of rivers, and I've never crossed one that deep with a horse. That's, that sounds daunting, and yet, in the end, when you're on the other side and whooping it up, it sounds fun. Yeah. But back to the thing with Tom and the fact that, did you say all five of you saw the same thing?

Stevie: 21:46

We were all hallucinating on as far as I know, like the girls, the younger girls, were seeing, like horses in the trees and shapes. And I just kind of confirmed with everyone, like, yeah, you guys were hallucinating, right? And it wasn't for me, at least, it didn't feel like I was seeing stuff that was not there. It was like my brain was seeing those shapes in the dark and like making them out be something, but weirdly they were. My brain was making them out to be the same things that other people were saying too well. And that's,

Lynn: 22:17

that was the question I had, because it dawned on me, I was wondering if it was an hallucination or if it was something more, because you, at least, more than one of you shared it, because that's happened with me before in working with people here, you know, occasionally, like, and it'll be a flash, but we'll all see the same thing. Like, it's hard to describe, but it'll be like, Well, is it a hallucination? If we all just saw it, even though it just disappeared, like we saw something come and go, Brian and it's it, you know? The you have to start by acknowledging that what we see and what we can touch isn't the only things that are real, you know. But I just wonder if it's, if it's just a question, if it's a hallucination, or if it's you just happen to share the same, you know, experience of watching, perhaps somebody you know, watching over you.

Stevie: 23:15

Yeah. I mean, you know, the science part of my brain says, well, the leaves probably did have, like, a significant shape, and then our brains have this pattern recognition, and it looked like a human, and, you know, it probably did have it, you know, like we have all seen trees that look like something and or clouds that look like something, right? And all, most humans will look at it and see the same thing. So scientifically, it could just be the pattern recognition in the brain. But I don't know how to just explain what Alina felt she was seeing. And to be honest, out of all five of us, she's probably the most attuned, energetically and like peaceful, whole human being. So most likely, she would be more spiritually attuned to see something than the rest of us would be. So I didn't see as radical hallucinations as she did, but I did find that it was interesting that, like Carmen and I both thought we saw like an old woman by the trail and right, like that same bit of leaves. So I have no idea.

Lynn: 24:18

I you know, this is I have that same sort of skeptical, scientific mind. And we have a horse at rain rescue who I have been feeling for several months like she was talking to me, and she's just got a very specific way about her, and it feels like she's, you know, it just feels like she's very much communicating one of the things she communicates to me, by the way, is I want to be your horse. And I keep telling her I'm not going to have a horse. But we had somebody else at the rescue during a workshop last week. And what was interesting is, after she fell in love with this horse and started working with her, she said, Boy, does she talk a lot. And then we compared No. And the horse was saying kind of the same thing to both of us, and that's when I'm like, Okay, so are we both just crazy in the same way, or is it possible that there's something happening here? You know, how do I how do I maintain my sanity?

Stevie: 25:16

Well, doesn't that seem so much more, you know, that's this is to me, so we're all animals like humans are animals. It drives me crazy when people talk about anthropomorphization, because we are animals, and there was a time before we had human language that we all communicated, and how I think that that's much less crazy to think horses are speaking to us and to each other, then, then even the idea of these ancestral hallucinations that we're experiencing. And I've found the same thing, like I've found, like many riders come and visit us and do our boot camps, and they'll all have the same experience of certain horses. Like this horse talks a lot like, well, how come every single person feels that this one horse speaks a lot like when we had Captain America with us. He was same thing to everyone. Everyone, really, he's a very clear speaker. Kristen, my friend who owns him now, was, like, this horse is the, like, most clear communicator. So, like, obviously something's going on. Like, none of us, you know, I A lot of times this comes independently observed of information beforehand. And what I mean by that is, like, even if I didn't tell anyone that Captain speaks a lot, that's the horse, immediately they'd be like, This horse is like talking English in my head. I'm like, yeah. So I think that, I think that there's no question to me that horses can speak, especially because A, people seem to get the same messages, and B, they have the same experience of it. Like Captain America to a lot of different people coming to visit, was like, had very clear, concise messages that came up with them when they were around him. And then, like Alex, Alexander Hamilton, our horse, he comes to a lot of our friends in dreams, which is kind of nuts. How come it's always him and it's once people have written him, and they always are getting these messages through dreams from him, which is really interesting, too. And those have all independent of knowing that other people had that experience.

Lynn: 27:13

Wow, see, that's the thing is, those are all really compelling reasons to say. You know, it's just worth keeping our minds open for what is not necessarily acknowledged necessarily widely, but just almost has to be true,

Stevie: 27:32

right? And, and like, what? What is true, right? Like, I was thinking back to this, like, idea of the woman, and like, Okay, say it is a pattern of leaves that does look this way and our brain interpreted it this way, then who's to say that the leaves are not in that formation? To give us that pattern recognition, to give us this sign, to make us feel held and observed by the universe in this experience, like, like, just because there's science to explain it doesn't mean it's less magical. It almost, in my mind, seems more magical, you know, like, just those are still beautiful and amazing. We know why they happen with prismatic like, light effects. But like, why does that take away from the magic of it? I feel like all magic can be explained and like, that's why I have, like, a side I love quantum physics, because that seems to me like the explanation of magic.

Lynn: 28:24

It really, it really does, like the one of my favorite experiments is the one with cat, where things are tricky one time, right? And I've actually used that from my own mindset at times when, like, when my dad was having surgery, and I was leading a workshop while it was happening, and a part of me wanted to, like, be in touch with the surgery the whole time, but I couldn't be, because I was committed to do this other thing, right. And that experiment allowed me to say, You know what, no matter what is actually happening, I get to choose that he everything is fine while I'm doing this thing, even if something else did happen, it didn't, but if it had, it didn't matter, because as long as I didn't know any different, he was fine.

Stevie: 29:16

Yeah, that's a really great I mean, that's a great hack to worrying, right? Because worrying is essentially useless, like sometimes it may prompt us to make a plan ahead of time, but after it served its purpose, it really can be sent away. There's just no, no point in worrying.

Lynn: 29:32

Yeah, I've come to, I've really come to that conclusion. It's like, Okay, is there anything I can do about it right now? No, then everything is fine until it's not. And what that brings into is another piece of this. And I feel like this is very relevant to the kind of work you do, which is the idea of our imagination. Because, you know, like somebody could say you were just imagining the woman in the tree, but worrying is also imagining the worst. Mm. Yes, we are imagining all the ways things can go wrong. Sometimes, a lot of times we call that fear, but it's really your imagination. And I think horses do that too. It's like, there the thing that's going to happen is not nearly as bad as the thing they're imagining is going to happen, like crossing the river, you know, right?

Stevie: 30:21

Yeah, I've had, you know, like, I'll sit down and ask myself, like, why I'm having anxiety. So for everyone who doesn't know, I lead boot camps and lease horses for endurance rides. So that often means that I am not only riding the horse that I'm on, which, in the past couple years has often been Alexander Hamilton, a horse that's not always easy to manage, and then I'm also riding like in responsibility, or like perceived responsibility for four to five other horses that are with me, and they're riders, so I'm always taking people out on trails and competing in endurance races. So of course, my mind and my nervous system are something I'm constantly trying to keep in check, and sometimes I'm better at it, and sometimes I'm not. I would say, by nature, I'm a highly anxious person, and I've been doing the work on that, and some years I seem to manage that better than others. And this has been like a highly anxious year for me, for whatever reason, somewhat indiscernible. And I've had, like, a lot of, really, as I put it hard, one miles like in that my entire, like, 50 miles spent with Alex on a race have have not been easy. And so I recognize, and of course, that's the thing. Like doing the work, you can sometimes recognize what the problem is, but it doesn't mean that you can solve that, solve for that, or improve it. And I'm realizing that my anxiety and, like, imagining what could go wrong as often, like, way worse than when it actually goes wrong, because I've imagined things going wrong, and sometimes they happen. And like, when they happen, well, it's, like, peaceful about it, because, like, it just is what it is in the way forward is very clear, like, when shit is hitting the fan, very clear what you need to do, just like, make the situation better. And so I, like, always laugh, because I'm like, Okay, well, like, quote, unquote, the worst has happened, and now I'm experiencing it, and then now it's just actionable. So it's actually worse. You know they say anxiety is like suffering the reality twice. Like, if you have anxiety about situation, you suffer all the way up until it happens, and then you suffer it when it happens. But in fact, the the time leading up to the event that you're worried about can be like worse, because it's a much longer period of time. And that's just like such an interesting human condition, that I think we all suffer like I do know that I'm not alone in that experience of the world, that we are always kind of battling our mind. And our mind seems to think that it's necessary to have this anxiety in order to, like, prevent what will possibly come to be. And that's so not true.

Lynn: 33:01

Well, the key word, operative words, when you said, in order to prevent the thing from happening happening, and that's the belief anyway, because that's what I've used my worry for, is it's like, well, if I worry enough, maybe it won't happen. And in so many cases, the fact that I'm worrying is what caused it to happen? Yeah, yeah,

Stevie: 33:20

absolutely. We manifest our own reality. And if we're like, I mean, you know, horses are such a great reflection, immediate reflection of that. Because if you're sitting there or on the horse and riding, and, for example, you're like, Oh, they're gonna spook at that, they're gonna spook at that, they're gonna spook at that. And you're getting tighter and, like, more anticipatory, the horse is probably like, oh, did you want me to spook at that like, additionally felt like, why are you afraid? Now I'm afraid. And that just, you know, has a big cyclical effect,

Lynn: 33:48

right? Well. And the other piece of imagination that I think is incredibly productive is when I put a picture in my mind with a horse, and say, imagine we go over there. And a lot of times I'll picture it like a blue like instead of a yellow brick road, like a blue brick road. Don't ask me why I like blue for that many times, especially a horse I'm connected to without me feeling like I'm doing much else. It's like they get the picture, and they're really delighted to go follow along on my picture. So I have to be very careful what I picture then, because my disaster mind, you know that can create all kinds of scenarios, because I'm a risk manager at heart, I can picture all these horrible things, and then I don't want to, like be creating that very thing.

Stevie: 34:40

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's definitely. I mean, I think that's why people are so drawn to horses, like most everyone has come through childhood with trauma, somehow, I think that's kind of the path we're meant to take. And many of those people with trauma seek out ways to fix it without knowing it, because that's. Spiritual path you're on, whether you admit it or understand it or not. And oftentimes horses are a great, a great space to learn how to regulate nervous system, to regulate your mind, to like have motivation to do the work. So it's an interesting, interesting crossover for people and space to go into,

Lynn: 35:21

because we share the that mammalian nervous system with horses. And one of my early lessons from one of my teachers was, as I was very fearful up there, because I was recovering from the accident, an accident, and she said, under no circumstances is this horse ever going to conclude that he is the cause of the fear that you are feeling? He is asking you, should he be afraid or not? So if you're afraid, the answer to him is yes, I should be afraid. Yeah, create exactly the thing that you're here to get over, and so the being able to reverse that, and I've been reflecting on that a lot lately. You know, it's true in flying, when you're trying, you know, when you're trying to recover from a stall in an airplane, you do the opposite of what you feel like you should do, and you push the nose down at the very moment when you're afraid you're going to crash, but that's the only way to recover from a stall. And I feel like that principle of doing almost the opposite of what you naturally would do riding a horse, don't clutching, don't clutch, and go into the fetal position, you know, find a way to relax at the moment that you're under the most pressure and feeling the most fear. I think that is what makes all this so interesting, and makes

Stevie: 36:41

those those two phrases, like steering into the skid, really becomes true, and the only, the only way out is through, which is like such an endurance mindset, and a phrase I really like.

Lynn: 36:53

Well, the only way out is through is also what we use for grief. So how, how did you apply that principle with with this particular Tevis, like, what other moments of truth did you have where you had to go find that place within yourself that is willing to keep taking steps through when you realize you have so many steps yet to take?

Stevie: 37:18

That's a good question. I feel like I always like to say, like, necessity is the birthplace of ability, because, yeah, the only way out is through. Is really true for Tevis, it's a lot of drop off trail, and it's very remote, so you can't just suddenly be like, I give up. I don't want to play anymore. Like, there's that may be true, but that also means you still have to make it to the next vet check at minimum. So, like, you can't just stand there, and you also can't just stop because there's plenty of horses behind you and in front of you and you're on a drop off ledge, and you can't just stop. Like, that's not an option. You can't turn around. Yeah, you can't turn around. Like, we actually tailed the horses up the canyons at one point, and we were behind them, and I was behind Alex, who's like, kind of a wide load of a horse, and I went to go get in front of him, and I was like, Okay, if he turns and, like, tries to scratch his head on me, he'll knock me off this cliff. Like, I was like, I actually can't get back in front of this horse, nor can I get back on him if I wanted to. And I was like, usually I can, like, snake around to get in front of them, and I just couldn't. And I was like, Okay, well, hopefully, like, nothing, nothing happens. Can't drop these leads. Can't have, you know, there are quite a lot of moments where I was, like, really contemplating, like, this trail is really, is really dangerous, like there's you just everything has to go right? Which I knew that from, from last year, there were two really unfortunate deaths of horses that were, like, kind of both freak accidents. It was a little wild. So again, that was why the vetting was so severe this year in in good you know, it was a it was a good plan. Again, I don't think that any more severe vetting would have caught these incidents, because both were horses having a moment being horses, and that kind of led to them falling off the trail. And honestly, both incidents were cut, were unpredictable completely. But it was a nice step by Western states trail foundation on Tevis cup to, like, put more stringent vet checks, like they lowered heart rates again, further into the ride, before you go into the canyons, which was, like, you know, anxiety provoking for me. I ride, I think you know, not to say that other breeds can't do it, but Tevis is going to slowly become a race where, really, Arabians do much better than all other breeds, and that's just because their heart rates are naturally way lower. And there's so many checks that pull on heart rates. And I am absolutely a proponent of all horses can do endurance, but I do think Tevis is going to become an Arabian race because the heart rates keep dropping in an effort to have horse. Welfare being very inclusive, but I do think it's going to become an exclusive race. So it's, you know, there's always that balance, and it's interesting. Anyhow, I have a horse that's a standard bred Arabian, and he's quite large, so his heart rate is always a battle. And that was anxiety provoking. But kind of got a got away from everything where I was going with this, but along the trail this year, I was noticing, because of those, um, those incidents last year, I had already gone into it knowing it could be fatal, right? And that was just a really big like, I really struggled with this post have this last year, and I kind of alluded to it talking to you. And I still haven't finished processing, um, everything that has happened. And, like, really being like, Okay, I'm risking these people's lives and and these horses lives by doing this, like, is that ethical? And then really looking at that stats of, like, all the horses that have started and finished have us, and then the stats of, just like, the horses in our own pasture, and being like, you know what, they're actually in greater danger of an injury and pasture and, like, knock on wood, but I've never had a horse be injured in an endurance ride. I've only had them be injured out in pasture or doing stupid stuff on trail. Like one time Alex kicked Sonic and, like, he got this big gash where he had, like, blood spurting out. Was like, this whole incident. I was like, these are horses just being horses. It wasn't even like, like impact or athlete athletically related to what they were doing. So I've had to really, like, push back against my mind that seeks out comfort and for everyone listening. Lynn and I, like, texted back and forth this morning about like themes we were thinking about coming up to this podcast, and one of them, a big theme I've had for myself this year has been like fighting back against shrinking, and I feel that, you know, like in wondering why I seem to have more anxiety this year, I'm like, well, it's definitely not even related to what I do, but related to the state of the world right now. It's just, I think, been really disconcerting to see the shifts in political climate, just in like, how mean people can be to each other, and how dehumanizing people can be on both sides. And that's been like, the background noise in my head that's just, like, made me more anxious. Like, you just have to question, like, where is the world going? Because it doesn't feel like it's going in a good, good place. And I think a lot of people are sharing that, like, activation. So I think everyone's being switched into fight, flight or freeze due to, like, the political climate and and just shifts in, like, even environment. I mean, like, look what's happening with all these natural disasters. Like, that's really real and really scary, and doesn't put people in a space of, like, you know, being open or creative, everyone's back into scarcity mindset. And, like, not in in their place of abundance. And I think this makes for, you know, just all of us to feel a lot more activation in the things we do. And it's made me want to shrink, like, I'm like, I don't want to, you know, I've had talks with myself. I don't want to do Tevis anymore. Like, even when I was out there, I was like, this is a lot of pressure. I'm like, do I really want to do this? And I think, you know, I just have kept saying to myself, because I'm in an activated state when I'm having those thoughts, I'm like, I'm reminding myself that I have this lens on this negative lens, and additionally, like, I don't want fear to ever dictate, dictate my choices. And I think that little standalone sentence has really helped me assess what I'm feeling, and if it's valid. You know not that your feelings are valid, but like it's made me assess what I'm feeling at the time, I guess is a good way to put it. And I'm just coming to the conclusion that I don't want fear to dictate what I do. I want compassion, love, adventure, curiosity. I want those things to be the pursuit I'm or the words that are helping me pursue my goals. And so I've decided, you know, it was kind of why I decided, okay, I'm also gonna do this half Iron Man. I'm gonna, like, push myself. I'm gonna keep pushing instead of shrinking, even though, in, you know, like I had, I think everyone coming up to their their big goals in life, have like, doubts and and outs. Like, for me, I always tell myself, like, somehow, this is weirdly motivating. But I'll be like, Oh, if you get there and you don't feel like it's the right answer, you can always bail. Or I like, I always say that. But then when I come up to that. You know, those little checkpoints of times where I can bail out, I can I end up pushing through. And a good example is Alex was like during Tavis. Alex was classically like. His heart rate was not easy to recover. But I kind of know that about him, and I also know it's not like indicative of his health. Yes, but I was like, Alex, you've gone far enough. You've done a great job. Like, if you don't want to keep going, that's okay with me. Like, I'm totally fine. We got our buckle last year. I don't want to push you past what's necessary. And at that time, I was actually in the lead, and I was thinking that, and he took off at a gallop from our little trot. And it was like, it was an absolute Screw you. I can do this. Don't ever take this away from me. And I felt like, is a little bit the universe talking through him to me, like, don't give up. Like, it is not that hard. Like, that's just what you're experiencing right now. Is like, such a cool moment of being like, I felt really good about that our goals and like, thinking like, you know, like, how do I explain this succinctly? I guess I'm always questioning, am I pursuing my own goals in ego, you know, and dragging this poor horse along with me? And it was sort of like a moment of me questioning that, and immediately he came back with, no, I'm finishing this race. Like, whether you're with me or not. So it was like, see, it was like, important to him as well, and that he had so much left in the tank, and that I was letting my lens of insecurity and fear sort of color what he might be experiencing. And he was like, I'm not experiencing what you're experiencing. So it was like a cool moment of recognition, and

Lynn: 46:21

I validation, if you ask me, absolutely,

Stevie: 46:25

yeah. And I think, you know, I see that so much in, like, training people, mungle Derby for Tevis, like all endurance sports, we as humans are so, so much softer than the horses are, actually. And I think it's like a big crossover too, in, like, the spiritual horse world, like, where people are very attuned to their horses, which is great, but we also are, like taking away from their abilities, like, they're so much more athletic than we are, and they live out in the environment, and there's there's more stoic and strong, much stronger than we are, and we oftentimes project our own fears and softness onto them, and we take away from their ability and their resilience. And I think that that's a really interesting space that I occupy. And I'm always questioning is, like, what part is our projected softness, and what part, you know, like, I think that horses are so much more capable than most people let them be.

Lynn: 47:18

I think that's also probably true of as a coach of people, I have noticed that's also true of people as well, and it's actually one of the reasons I so appreciate getting to hang out with you and come on the rides that I have with you, because I've seen you, not just for me, but for others who have a hiccup. And when we go out, there's almost always something that's a hiccup, right? And I remember on a on a ride we did this year earlier in March, where, you know, 10 minutes after somebody had a little bit of a hiccup, you had her in the late you had her in the lead, like saying, I believe in you. And, more importantly, let her recover her own confidence to say, Yeah, I can do this. But what do we normally do is we shrink back and say, okay, here, let me, let's put you in the safest place. We'll put you in the middle of the pack, and we won't ever ask you to step out again, because this one thing happened, and that becomes a very small identity. And I fight that with myself all the time.

Stevie: 48:24

Yeah, same. I mean, absolutely the same. And I think there's so much in learning through doing. So there's a I love, the line Tracker's Guide to Life, by Boyd Barney. And there's so many quotable, simple quotes. And one that I really like is I don't know where we're going, but I know how to get there, and I often feel that that's what I'm embodying or experiencing as a teacher. I don't really know what the end goal is, but I do feel confident in being with you through it. So I have like, loose goals of like, Okay, we're gonna, like, ride this many miles today. But it's definitely held loosely, because so many things can come up, especially if you have five horses, five riders. So you're only going to be like, the strongest of the 10 of you that day, or as capable as the 10 of you, the weakest of the 10 of you that day. So I'm always constantly reshaping, and, you know, like I feel, I feel like, if I just loosely hold a goal in place and then see what is meant to be taught in the day, like I'm learning through the experience too. Like, good example, just yesterday, I had three little girls, 622, or six, and one is like four, and we went out on a trail ride, and I was only leading one of them, and the other girls were riding independently, and we went out, and a thunderstorm came up, and one of the girls was about to cry. And I actually am really afraid of lightning, like really, because I've heard of like horses dying, and, you know, they're grounded by metal shoes. Like, it does happen. They do get struck by lightning. And so. Was like, Oh, this is so cool. Like, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna get back. We're not gonna run back because we don't want to, like, let the horses know that this is scary. And I also didn't want to, like, heighten the energy for the little girls. But I was like, I also don't want to run with these horses. I was on foot with them. I was like, I don't want to run and have one of the horses get out of hand. And so we're I was like, Okay, well, you know, you get to say that you rode back with lightning coming up, but like, you know, we were talking about, like, lightning safety and what we should do and ride along the edge of the meadow. So we're not, like, out in the middle of the meadow, but we'll go along the tree line. And I was like, you know, if I was alone in that situation, actually, would have been probably scared, like, more, for my horse's sake, and it's just like a lifelong fear of mine, but in the teaching and like, just talking it out with them, I felt completely calm because I was like, Well, I'm it's not my turn to panic. I think there's a meme out there about horse ownership, and it's like only one of us can freak out at a time, and it's never my turn. I don't feel like that, and I think that's maybe why I do what I do. I get to do a lot of things that maybe I wouldn't push myself to do. But when I'm supposed to be the voice of reason, then when I have to step into that role, I do it. You know, again, like necessity being the adventure invention of ability. And that's like, kind of how I'm living my life. Like I do feel, you know, I'm not faking it. I do feel confident when I'm talking people through stuff, but I don't know if I would feel that confident in talking through those things with myself.

Lynn: 51:29

Yeah. Well, I think putting yourself in those situations is what gives you the chance to actually build those like I think of that as building our mental tools. And I've I've noticed a very distinct difference in myself, if I fall into the freak out, versus skate, okay, this is happening for me. I'm going to work through this and then I use it, almost like a muscle building activity for my mental skills, if you will, can I can I stay within myself in this moment, versus how big of a freak out am I going to allow myself to have? And then what do I do next, after that? Like, do I say I can never go do that again? Like, right? You know, after a near miss in a car, does that mean I'm never going to drive a car again? Right?

Stevie: 52:19

Again? Are you letting fear, like drive your decision making, or are you letting curiosity, compassion, adventure, all those things, what is driving your decision making so

Lynn: 52:31

good? I feel like curiosity is the gateway to every single thing that matters inside, like that's how we learn, but I think it's also how we be brave? I think the curious question of, I wonder what will happen if, and, you know, I'll take one more baby step, and that's the thing that helps me the most, is not to gulp, but to actually take one little baby step at a time. It's like, I love your your like, rhyme of doubts and outs. You know, I can have my doubts and outs, but at least take one more step and then just let myself out when it's too far, like, when I've gone a step too far, then let myself out if I need to. I almost never have to.

Stevie: 53:12

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a great hack. You know, for people not sure how to reach their next goal, like, don't worry so much about the goal. Like, have it there. So it's like a benchmark that you know, you know somewhat where you're going. But again, like, focus on how you're getting there. So if, along the way, you know, like a good example, I'm going to run a marathon, but I've never run a step in my life. Well, cool. If today, after running, you know, on and off for a mile, just going out and exercising for a mile. If that did not feel good or doable, then I don't need to have that as my goal. I'm going to change it and but you'll surprise yourself, because then it seems bite size by giving yourself those outs along the way. And I think Additionally, if, if you're not using the marathon or the end goal is your only measure of success, then you're going to be more successful. Which comes back to something that we had spoken about, and I had, like, sent you a clip from a podcast, was process goals versus outcome goals, which has been a huge and wonderful new reframing of the idea that the journey, it's like, all about the journey, right? Like, that's just a really cool, poetic and more succinct way of saying. It's about the journey, and again, process, goals. I think in endurance sports, you cannot. It's absurd to think that crossing the finish line is a measure of your success, because that is a fraction of the time that you've put in. Example For Tevis. Like to make a Tevis horse, in my mind, takes like, five years, and I think that's just like, you know, I You can ride a horse as young as seven there. But I don't think that that's ideal. There's always exceptions. I just say never, say never. But I think that. Having, you know, for the to have all three boxes checked of mental, emotional and physical ability of that horse takes a long time to process that, especially knowing how dangerous those trails can be, you want to have all this stuff in place. So the journey to the Teva start line is huge, and like most of it, even though you're riding for 24 hours, which is very long time to have an event go on. So most people's goals are very short lived, even if there's a finish line involved, like it might only be like, you know, a half marathon or something, which is like a two hour, three hour endeavor, or faster if you're a fast runner. But I think it's really interesting to ever think that a snapshot of your experience is the importance of it? And, you know, again, I think our society, we want to be relatable and and I see this in kids, like, always asking me, How far did we ride? Like, how many miles, how many hours? They're trying to find tangible numbers and metrics to like measure their experience. And I'm always like, sort of pushing against that more, like, how much like, how much fun did you have? Like, how, how hard was that for you? Like, what's the distance, the duration, the difficulty? Like, take into account, like, all the measures in there, not just like, these metrics of like, how far do we go at the end? Because I think having these tiny snapshots is a measure of your worth and your success are like, very like, they're just, they're not sustainable metrics. I kind of came up the with this idea, with a lot of people doing the Mongol Derby, which is extremely difficult race spread out 620, miles over 10 days, riding all these different horses. And a lot of times they're, you know, for a long time there was a low measure of success, much like Tevis, like, closer to, like, a 40% completion rate. And I was like, you can't, like, the journey to get to Mongolia involves so much training, just like Tevis, and this applies Mongol Derby and Tevis are very similar experiences in that they're very long races with like, one, like, very low chance at finishing. And there are a lot of people that are trained that wanted to win the Mongol derby. So like, not only did they want to finish, they wanted to win. And I was like, you know, that's lovely that you have that goal for yourself, but if you don't reach this now, which is, like, you know, a one in 45 chance, because there's 45 entrants in the Mongol Derby, a one in 45 chance of being happy. Like, that's really like, setting yourself up for failure. And so I started like, that was like, in training people for the Mongol Derby, I really started to, like, look at process goals. I was like, instead of saying, like, I want to finish, you know, and like, that can be one of your goals, but like, maybe your bigger goal should be, like, I want to maintain my integrity throughout the race, which was like When Dylan and I had started doing my Dylan's my husband, and when we had started doing a lot more work, and we went back and did Gaucho Derby for the first time in the Pioneer run, we actually made the goal for ourselves. We wanted to be we wanted to maintain integrity and morality throughout the race. So like, if somebody needed help, we would like, stop and help them. That was that was more important than how we finished, because we're like, finishing is just like this little snapshot, but like how we behave and how we come across and how we work together. We're also like, let's have let's work together throughout this race. Let that be our goal. And it honestly felt so much better. And that was, like, a big shift in my understanding of how to do these endurance races. Was like, What in the process do I want to learn? Because the process is, like, 1000 times more man hours than the actual little second of crossing the finish line. And somehow there's like magic in that paradox. When you start, like focusing on the process, you actually do better on the outcome.

Lynn: 58:45

I think that's true across the board. And I'm actually helping Austin Abel train for the World Water Ski Championship, which is about a month from now. It here at Mystic waters, and he's only known he's going for about the last, I don't know, four or five months, but we have very much been talking process goals versus outcome goals and like down to every day, sort of what is this practice need to look like. And not every practice is a tournament set. And many times practices are focused on him just making one move, I'm just trying to work on this one move, and then the buoy count probably isn't going to be there. And it's really hard in skiing, because we all it's very tangible and very quick. How many buoys did you get? But right? Really very different as we've worked through this, both for him and for me, and it's changing kind of how I've approached skiing as well, but it is a big like, this is exactly the conversation we had about when he had just accomplished something huge last year, and he goes, you know how long that lasted? It was like 30 seconds, and then it was like, Okay, now I'm going to go get my daughter and we're going to figure out what we're doing. For dinner, and this is life, right? Is the what are we doing day in and day out? And it's not unlike what Scotty Scheffler said. I don't know if you saw those quotes. He's a really high level golfer who has won a bunch of tournaments this year, but he's like, Yeah, but it's over in five minutes or less, and then I'm going to have to figure out, what are we doing for dinner and how are we getting

Stevie: 1:00:21

home? Yeah, yeah. I just recently, I'm not sure if it was someone from the Tour de France or if it was him. I just caught a snippet of it on some podcast of someone saying, Yeah, you win the championship, and it's cool for like a couple minutes, and then it's back to regular life. So if all the glory and happiness. Like, say, again, you've set this outcome goal for yourself, and you do reach it, it's again, extremely fleeting. Versus, like, am I living a life that brings me joy? Am I, like, joyful in this process? You know, like they talk about in endurance running sports, like, if you really don't like the running training a you're probably not going to be an ultra runner. But like, why are you doing it? You know? Like, that's, that's something to observe. And so, like, when you look at what goals, outcome goals you have for yourself, because there's probably a lot of us that do have those. And like, oftentimes that's unfortunately our jobs. Like, my outcome goal is to make this much money. Oh, yeah, okay, great. But the process of you getting that much money is destroying your well being. So like, really look at that, you know, and that's where I love, I love my life. It's definitely, from time to time, really sketchy I live in, I live in a bus. Like, financially, it can be, um, questionable here and there. But like, I am so enamored with the process of how I live to create this life. It doesn't, it doesn't feel necessary to have more. Like I just talking to my friend this morning, and we're talking about destination addiction, like the idea that something your happiness lies in, like a bigger house, a new car, the next relationship, the next anything, right? Like, that's our minds love, destination, addiction, ideas, again, is like a little bit like an outcome goal. Of like, if I have this, then I'll be happy. And in fact, like, the magic of life is realizing there's always another milestone to be met. So, like, you can always level up in anything that you're doing, but if you think that the leveling up will bring you joy, you're screwed, because there's endless amounts of levels to reach in anything that you pursue you'll never master anything. And, yeah, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Lynn: 1:02:30

Well, I was gonna say on that economic front in my profession, as an executive coach, I've had countless people come to me who've more than made, whatever their number is, of additional money, and, frankly, of additional promotions or whatever. And the thing we've, I've come to conclude, is that it's a we're almost in a form of economic slavery, which is that there's never enough. And I've literally sat with people who have over a billion dollars and it's still not enough, yeah? And so, like, every you know, because somebody who doesn't have it is going to sit there and go, Yeah, but when I have this, no, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, not going to solve it. Solve it. That's not how we were wired. So we're wired to, like, do this destination addiction thing, and we're going to always want more. But the antidote is back to this process, goals thing, because what I have begun experimenting with, and this was because it somebody showed it to me, not because I figured it out on my own, but if you break those goals down and then allow yourself the same endorphin kick for achieving little baby goal as you get when you get across the finish line, then you've actually filled your bucket by many 1000s of times more endorphin kicks than you would have gotten by just getting the one at the end and beating yourself up all the way to get to there, cuz that's usually what we do if we're destination addiction, We're like on our back the whole time going, come on, come on, come on, come on. You can do it, as opposed to look, you did it, you did it, you did it, you did it, you did it,

Stevie: 1:04:10

so absolutely. And, you know, I think that's a really good point to make for people out there that are questioning, like taking up something new, which, you know, change is always scary. Our minds always safeguard against any change, because, like in our mind's mind, that's just a survival tool. Everything we've done up to this point is obviously kept us alive. So why would we change anything? So remember that your mind is like naturally engineered to like work against any new change, but when you take on new new sports, new goals, every little thing is a milestone. So that's actually why I love teaching beginner riders and training horses. Like, everything is new, everything is a win. It's so exciting. That's where I find so much joy. Is like teaching beginner rider, teaching beginner horses, like having people embark on these like. Crazy new adventures, and like learning a whole new style of writing, because every every little thing that they accomplish is a whole celebration. They've never done that before. They've never ridden that far. They've never run that far. Like that's such a cool thing to be a part of and to celebrate. And it reminds you to like, you know, like you were here once. Like this is also still amazing. It's amazing that you can think that 50 miles is not hard, or like that 100, you know, 100 miles won't be hard on your body, but like watching people do their first 100 mile ride and being there for that experience, that's so cool, and it's so such a good reminder of how far we've come, and like how everything is so exciting. So if you're out there, like considering doing something new, just remember, you get to have like that experience of every little try that you make is going to be further. And you've ever gone before,

Lynn: 1:05:49

and I've been whatever unit. I mean, my longest rides have been with you, and my my rides where we did the most, like, for example, the most trotting, because this year, the trip we did in June, I feel like we trotted more on the trail than anytime I've been there and and done more experiments, if you will. You know, tried things that I hadn't done before, and the longest time to ride in the rain was with you, too.

Stevie: 1:06:20

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Lynn: 1:06:24

And what was so cool to me that that particular day, because it helped a lot, that I actually had thought to put my rain jacket on when it wasn't really raining when we started. But I was like, You know what? It can't hurt. I'm going to have it on. And I not once thought, Gosh, I wish it would quit raining. I wish we could get off this trail. I wish this ride was over. Not once when we finally were done, I was like, dang, we're done. I think that was the day I was riding Gilbert, and he was acting, he was acting up a little bit, but that was even fun.

Stevie: 1:06:57

Yeah, yeah, I remember that. Though it's so true. And yeah, for all the listeners, Lynn was definitely enjoying herself, which was really awesome to see it and to be a part of. And I think, you know, for the horse people that are listening to this out there, like instructors in the world, like, just remember, yeah, there's a weird bias against taking beginner riders or riders that are new to something, because it can, you know, it can be a little challenging. But like, as an writing instructor that's taught advanced to beginner, like I do, find the most joy in teaching beginners because they're super excited and they kind of reinvigorate why you enjoy the sport too. So, like I, I don't love the rain or being out in it, necessarily, but I was also void of, like, I didn't necessarily care about it being done or not, either, because, like, Lynn was having so much fun, and the other rider that was riding with us, Andrea was, like, having some milestones too. And like, learning what endurance is about, which is, like, you ride through anything, and you know, it's exciting and wonderful for me as well. So like, yeah, having, having people that have a different perspective of the like, our everyday for you can, like, remind you to take joy in things

Lynn: 1:08:11

exactly well, and we begin those rides with with something. And I was thinking about what you were talking about when we take on new things. And this was a conversation I was just having before we got on today, when Austin and I were skiing together around something I've been struggling with, and it's that you start us with the balance board, and the statement the body wants to be in balance, and so we stand on the balance board. And you know, everybody is, especially at the beginning, is very tippy and falling off the boards and then getting back on and then, pretty quickly, we look like you never quite as good as you, because you do this all the time, but you've we find that balance point, and it becomes much more stable. And that's a real eye opener for for I know I've noticed it with all the different groups we've had. And for me, is just, if you'll allow yourself to, like, go into it, your body will find its balance point. Then there's this other side of that, which we want the balance point, but the other side of it is but if we want to actually change something, we actually have to go out of balance and create some disequilibrium to go to the next place. And that's what I've been my skiing. And it's like, where do I want to stay? I found what, where just to be very literate or real about this. I've been really struggling with my skiing this summer, because I had a couple of weird things where I felt like I was going to going to fall, and did fall, and then I started, like, almost lying to myself to protect myself against letting it happen again. So I try to make the right move, which really is like in skiing, your first move, you're pulling out, you're pulling out for the gate, and it's really just a control fall, like what you're doing is leaning your body way off the ski. And way forward, and then the ski shoots out, and then you flatten the ski out and turn in. But you have to ride that fall. If you don't ride that fall, which I was just trying not to fall at all, then you're not going anywhere. And that, to me, is like the interesting balancing act of trying to change anything is knowing that your mind wants to stay in equilibrium, and we seek balance, and balance is good, but we've got to be able to trust that when we get out of balance and we're falling, that we can ride that fall so that we can make the change we're seeking to make.

Stevie: 1:10:37

Yeah, that's, um, that's a really, good point. Like, we spend so much time trying to prevent the fall, but, like, there's also you kind of have to have some acceptance that it might happen, and if it does, having the trust in our bodies that we can deal with it.

Lynn: 1:10:53

When we were talking about, before we got on, we were talking about cantering off on a horse, and this was something for me that it took a while to understand, because for the first three or four years, I tried to canter with horses. Most of the time. I'd give them the cues, but nothing was happening, and it took somebody on the ground to actually get them to to lope off. And then I could start, like, getting in the rhythm. But what I'm starting, I've started noticing is, you know, in a way, when the horse is loping off, they're they're completely changing your balance. And if you're not ready to, like, join them in that new balance, you feel you're going to either fall off or feel like you're falling off. And the sooner they that, I realized that I could know what it's going to feel like when they lope off, so I know I can be with them. Because what I was thinking my imagination, was that every time they moved faster than a walk, it was going to be a full on gallop or bolt that I couldn't ride. And actually the workshop with you doing doing the galloping workshop helped a lot, because when the horse did take off full gallop, I was like, Oh, this is actually easier to ride than the other stuff. With the point being like, we actually have to start getting comfortable with the disequilibrium, which is all we're doing when we walk. Anyway, we're in disequilibrium. We're constantly just get falling out of balance and back in balance. I feel like, if we could just accept that, or I should speak for myself, if I can accept that, that's what I can make progress in anything I'm trying to do.

Stevie: 1:12:37

Yeah, that's a really, a really good point. I think there's a good saying that's not really coming to me now, about nothing, essentially, if you're comfortable, you wouldn't move right like the universe. That's kind of the universe's voice to us. You can also, I think, another way to say that there's something about the roots of a tree with no wind are shallow, right? And it's essentially that you have to have the discomfort and the pressures to create something strong and resilient, really interesting. You know, we were talking about this, like loping off before we started recording. And we were talking about how horses tend not to want to trot or lope off. For beginners, when they first ask the first time, because they can feel like the body is asking, the leg is being applied. The like kissing or the noise that you need to make for that particular horse to move forward is happening. So like, physically, the riders asking for the forward motion, but internally the riders, like, actually hoping it doesn't happen. Like, I definitely see that with, like, the little kids, when they do their first canner, they're like, you can see the trepidation on their face, and it's like, reflected in the first thing, yeah, I'm not going to canter. I think you don't want to, which, again, like shows their alignment to like your feelings versus like the physicality of your writing. But I find, I find that that's so, so interesting in Oh, I had, I had this thought when you were talking, and then I was listening, and I like, kind of let it drift off. But it was like an idea, oh, that what's funny is, I believe that all truths are paradoxes, and when you're just speaking, now, that came up. And it came up in a new way of, like, actually what that means then, if all truths are paradoxes, then that actually means that there's balancing. And this was like, in reference to you talking about the balance boards. So the there's always opposing elements in every truth. So like, a dark and a light side, if you want to look at it spiritually, but like, essentially, you can see in Horse, horse running and in everything right, that you know in balancing on a ski that you have to be, you have to hold two things at the same time. You have to hold, like, not manifesting your actual fall, but be. Lightly prepared. Should you come into like, on like, Should you lose balance? Which is such an interesting like, I think that all these, like sports that at their extreme levels are like an extreme holding of these, like balanced elements, like, you have to be prepared, but you also have to, like, not manifest that thing. So how do you do that? And that's, I think, what's such a cool, a cool element to riding, to skiing, water skiing, all of these things. And, yeah, I think I'll choose our paradoxes. Just means that we're always balancing.

Lynn: 1:15:35

Yeah, and you know, as you were saying that, I I'm back to the point where I realized that the balance point is always moving, and so what we have to be is in done that dynamic alignment. Because my mind says, Well, I want to get there and then stop. I want to be done. And that's that get to the end mind, as opposed to, I'm constantly adjusting towards a balance point that's always moving.

Stevie: 1:16:00

Yes, and maybe the

Lynn: 1:16:02

secret, when you see someone who does it really well to being relaxed under pressure, because I think one of the ways we do shrink our world is that we try to avoid pressure. And I do think there's, yeah, we want to avoid it or reduce it, but I also think there's times when we have to recognize that we can use it to help us build our stronger roots. I really love that saying about the roots that you said, you know, the roots of a tree with no wind to shallow, because I think we've seen that sometimes in our kids. I was reading an article the other day that said, the the generation that was coddling their kids is now deciding to move to the it's a new one. I'm going to use a bad word here, everybody. So get ready. I'm not going to bleep it, but the the fuck around and find out generation there are consequences, because when you take away the consequences from someone by sheltering them and taking away the pressures of normal life, you've actually made them weak.

Stevie: 1:17:10

Yeah, you've taken their resiliency, which is like a huge gift in all you know, all creatures we teach, not just kids like the horses, need to be resilient. Our dogs everything. We are not always going to be there protect, to protect, and even if we are, we can't shield against everything, even though we want to,

Lynn: 1:17:30

and we do tend to. I think it's I'm going to again, speak for myself, I tend to suck up too much. Need to help a lot of times. This is something I've gotten called out for a lot in my horse training, which is, you're helping too much. Actually let him make the mistake, because it's in the making of the mistake and letting the horse learn to correct it that they learn. But if you're always one step ahead of them so they never make the mistake, hello, me as a mom, then they have to fall pretty far when they finally do when you finally can't hold them up any anymore, rather than Yeah, hold themselves up

Stevie: 1:18:08

absolutely. Yeah, that's a very good noticing, and I think we're all guilty of it, for sure.

Lynn: 1:18:16

Well, yeah, because when they're making a mistake, I feel like I'm making a mistake, right? I didn't. I didn't I didn't want to be a terrible mother. I didn't want to be a terrible horse trainer. And watching the people who are really good at owning that, you know that things aren't always going to go the way as planned, and I'd like to see more and more people showing their road to different ways of getting some place with a horse or dogs or kids or whatever, where most of the time it's not working like the horse doesn't just know when you're asking them to step off to the left, how to step off to the left, or whatever little thing you're asking them to do, drop their head for the halter, whatever, you Know. So we need to all Yeah, because the Facebook world a lot like the 30 minute sitcom world I worked in, grew up in, it's not the it's not the real world.

Stevie: 1:19:12

No, absolutely not. And I think coming back to what you're, you know, talking about, with pressure, like we kind of imagine that, like the professionals in anything Don't feel pressure. And you mentioned this lightly, but I don't you know that's not true at all, unless I think it's Alex Hummel. I'm saying his last name wrong, but there's something like going on with his amygdala in climbing where he doesn't feel fear the way. Yeah, I couldn't even I couldn't even fair, yeah, I think, I think, you know, there are, like, actual Chem, like biochemical outliers, for sure, but I think for the most part, to imagine that people aren't feeling pressure. Um, and or that our heroes don't feel pressure is bizarre. It's actually just like they're better at dealing with it. And I think that's why I love watching the ultra running world so much. Um, and there's like, I'm really enamored with um. David Roche, who's 100 mile Ultra runner, um, and he attempted Western states 100 which is the running version of the Tevis cup. And that always happens about a month or a few weeks before actual Tevis. And he, he actually, a couple of years ago, got hit by a car biking in his training, and he weirdly had that like manifest up at because he hadn't dealt with it at Forest Hill, which is like our 6886 86 mile mark on the on the western states 100 and he DNF, he he dropped out of, ended up dropping out of the race. And he was really, he's, I look up to him because he's very open about the process and like his fears and injuries and like what he's doing to, like, improve as a runner. And I thought it was really awesome to understand, like, you know, you hear him, and like, Courtney dewalters, another famous Ultra runner, they always talk about, like, the pain cave and like the things that they're going through out on the trail. And it's, like, very obvious in the sport of ultra running that, like, people are not exempt from feeling fear, pain and suffering. They're actually just like, gritting through it and understanding how to get to the other side of it. And I think that that's really true of all things, it's just like, very obvious in the endurance sports. It's not that people don't have difficulties, it's that they're better at dealing with those difficulties because they're always putting themselves under pressure. And I think, you know, I get a lot of people that like, here's a great example. When Dylan, my husband, and myself, signed up for this, like, half Iron Man, I was not actually sure that we would finish, and everyone else was super sure, because in their minds, we're, like, the very athletic people that they know. But I was like, No, you don't understand we're, like, signed up with like, 3000 other very athletic people and, like, same, like, you know, Tevis, like people, our friends who are not horsey, are like, Oh, of course, you're gonna get a buckle and finish Tevis. Of course. Like, of course, you'll do great, because they see us as, like, the horse people. So of course, we're good at what we do. And I think it's really easy to assume, or, like, somehow our minds play this trick on us that, like, oh, the people that are successful are not suffering, you know, or not having a difficult time. And yeah, we ended up doing really well on this half Iron Man, like, better than we should have done for the amount of training we put in. But I think that was again, like, I'm pulling in a few concepts here, but that was also because I was, like, not committed to an end goal, because I really didn't feel that I had prepared my body in the way that I should have. So I was like, if it doesn't feel right, I'll just quit. It doesn't matter to me if I finish or not. Like, I would like to, but like, totally fine. I'm not gonna, like, injure myself during this race. And because I was just like, I'm going to be in the moment and do the best I can throughout the whole race. I didn't even in, you know, like, I actually could have probably done better, and that was the best I could do, though, with the training that I had. And what I mean by that is, I didn't push really hard on my bike because I didn't know I hadn't done enough training to know, if I pushed myself to the max, would I actually be able to run the half marathon at the end, but I didn't, and I do feel like I probably could have pushed a little bit harder. Dylan and I actually ran the half marathon together at the end. He waited for me. It was like a couple minutes ahead on the bike, but saw me come in as he was about to leave, so he waited on me through the transition so that we could run together. And it was like he was actually like, you can slow down in the run. He's like, way more athletic than I am. So that was like that That felt good, and like confirming. But again, like our goal was, like, to finish. It was not to, it was not to or, sorry, our goal was to, like, do the best we could, considering all this, like, low amount of training we had, versus, like, to get this medal at the finish, and that just ended up being, like, a really great consolation prize that we did finish and complete. But throughout, throughout that race, and throughout Tevis, especially Tevis, because that probably means a lot more to me, it doesn't mean that I wasn't suffering mentally, you know, like, I would say, physically, I felt pretty good during Thomas, but mentally, like I still suffer. And I think some people like to imagine our minds play tricks on us, that the people that we look up to are people that are doing the same thing as us, are somehow having an easier time of it. Yeah, and I don't think that's true, and I really just want just want to dispel that, which is why, on my Facebook posts, I'm often trying to talk about the difficult things, because Facebook's such a place of like, oh my gosh, this was amazing, and my life is perfect, and that's not reality. And I really try to, like, fight against that and tell the truth. Truth about what my experience is, in the hopes that other people will be encouraged to go out and have those experiences and realize like they're very capable to like I'm not an exception at all like and in fact, I think some people have probably do have an easier time of things than I do. I don't know if I'm necessarily built to be a runner or anything. I just enjoy it. And, yeah, I think that everyone should know that everyone out there is struggling. It's just the art is how you choose to struggle and suffer and and what you do to fight against that.

Lynn: 1:25:34

Well, I think you said something super critical early on in in talking about the the race, which was, I don't need to finish. And it reminds me of when I was learning to work with the horse, and Bruce Anderson, who I worked with, said, I don't want the horse to do the picture. And I thought he was a lunatic. But then I started working with horses a lot more on my own over at rain rescue now than I have in the past, and it's really been pretty stunning with me. We have a super, super sensitive Mustang. He's he's going to always be sensitive, but he's coming along so well. And the the day that this really showed up for me, it was like a couple of weeks ago. It had been raining and the trailer was wet. So the what my picture was is to see if he put two feet in the trailer, and this was after I'd already led him across a bridge, and we done some really cool things together. And so I showed up, and I just was going to ask for him to step forward, and then if he put, you know, a foot or two in the trailer, great, but I really didn't want him to do the picture because it was wet, so I didn't want him to have his feet slide out from under him, sure, and it was the easiest thing ever, because I wasn't holding on to the goal, but I was making the ask of him. And that paradox, like you talked about earlier, every truth has a paradox. I'm going to ask him to put his foot on the trailer, but I don't want him to do it. Yeah, creates this different. I think it's a different energy for him, which is, okay, well, I'll try. And he put, he put a foot on so fast, it wasn't even funny. And then I backed him out and told him he was a good boy, and we went over and we went over and played with the ball, which he also didn't want to have anything to do with. But again, is one of those big horse balls. Yeah. Again, I had no picture. I The picture was not for him to play with the ball. It was like, you're going to have to stand there. Sorry about this, but this is my ball, and I need to move it over here. And you just, you know you're on the end of the lead rope, but you're just extraneous. And when I had that view, he was like, Well, let me check out the ball. But if I had wanted him to check out the ball, in other words, that do the picture, he wouldn't have,

Stevie: 1:27:51

yeah, absolutely. That's really good observation. And again, such a hard thing, like in horses, because we have agendas and we we're passing on our human, capitalist paradigms and needs. Like, it's not really our fault that we have time set goals. That's like, how our society happens. Um, and, and I think it's really hard to like, you know, I think a lot of people probably struggle with, like, not having an agenda with their horses, because the world has agendas for us, and we're also, like, financially tied into outcomes. So again, like, everything is sort of working against the process or having process goals. It's very outcome oriented our society. Like, how much can you produce? How much can you win? Like, that's all, all that matters. Quote, unquote. And again, that's like, set up. I think that's also, you know, not like, in a conspiracy way, but like, I think that that's that narrative is set up to keep us in a state of feeling that we're not enough. Like, okay, well, if I can't do this X, Y and Z and be this productive, then I'm useless to society. And that's that is the message we all receive through social media, through like, from a young age, and being indocted, indoctrinated through school. Well, if you can't sit still at this desk and take these tests and get A's, you're not x, y, z, you're not enough.

Lynn: 1:29:21

If you talk too much or get in trouble a certain way, it's going to go on your permanent record

Stevie: 1:29:28

exactly, exactly. There's so much that teaches us not to be ourselves or to think that we don't measure up in some capacity, and again, like that's hard to not transfer onto our children or transfer onto our horses. And that's, again, like, I mean, I make money off my horses, which can, like, you know, that's like a moral, ethical wall that I have to interpret and understand and keep, like, introspectively evaluating. Because I sometimes I'm asking, like, they will. Tell me no. And I actually think it's okay to to still ask something against a horse's No. Because I think if you went to ask me, Can you run this 50 mile race, I'd be like, No. Like, there's a lot of no's that my body says. But I think the art isn't then, like getting, like, convincing, like other humans, the horses, to turn that no around and being like, you know, like accepting and hearing that no and saying, I'm sorry, but you have to do this. And again, like, I don't know if there is a world that doesn't look like this, where we could listen to every No, but I, I think because we live in this society where we have, we do have to, like, produce some outcomes. Let me, let me back up, maybe this is a better way to explain it. I think a lot of people have a lot of trauma from having to do to nine to five jobs or, like, have a negative experience of their reality because they have to be forced to go to work. But I think you know that can be trauma or triumph, that that nine to five job that maybe isn't like your favorite thing to do, that can also be a great framework in which to have structure and and to see it as everything is happening for me. Well, this does provide like work friends. This does provide an income, and though you might, if someone asked you every morning, do you want to go to work, most people would say no, but the at the same time, what would you be doing instead? And maybe there's a lot of things for a while that you would be doing, but I think there is some some validity to structure. And this is where lately I've been kind of looking at, like, the ideas of stoicism, like, I really resonate with the Stoics and their their outlooks of like, you do have to learn to like overcome things. And maybe for some people, it's not going out and doing marathons, maybe it is just going to your nine to five that you don't love. And I think sometimes I think of that for the horses, like, they're they're like, I think 80% of their time is probably spent in the pasture, probably even, like, more than that past year hanging out with friends, and we have, like, a beautiful, irrigated, like, grassy, 16 acres that they can run around on. So they have, like, a pretty good life. So really, when I take it into perspective, and I'm asking them to, like, maybe work for an hour, like, a couple hours a week, or, like, do these races here and there. It's really, like a small percentage of their time. I just need to make sure that, you know, I I'm giving them the tools that they can accomplish the things that I'm asking them to do. But I have to, you know, that's where this, like, really interesting work is, is understanding that they may say, like, No, I don't want to work today. I'm feel lazy and like, understanding when that's like a no, that to be listened to, because I do listen to them sometimes, like, if I if I'm like, no, like, and I can tell it's like, maybe from a physical or like, deeply mental standpoint, like, I don't really don't want to work. Then I will honor that. But then I can also, like, assess, is this just like you being lazy, slash, you trying to see how much you can push me around. And this is the same as, like, drawing boundaries with other humans, right? Absolutely, like, my boundary for the horses is, like, you can look at it as a boundary of me saying you can have this, like, wonderful, amazing life. But like, I need you to, like, walk around with a child on your back for an hour, and though it takes away from your grazing and napping time, like, I think you'll be okay. Like, like, I think this will be fine. And honestly, most times they are very happy to come to work like this. Is not often that I deal with them saying no, and I do honor a lot of their nos, but I don't think you always have to. And that's, again, very interesting talking about boundaries, because we're saying, like, well, the horses put up a boundary of saying no, but like, I think you have to understand what, where that boundary is coming from. Kind of the same with people, like, knowing when I've had a lot of riders be like, I can't do that. A really good example is, did a 50 mile ride at the end of the year last year, in October. And one of the riders, it was her first endurance ride, and her first 50. She had done a 25 with us earlier in the season, and it was her first 50. And she was like, I think my body's gonna give out. I don't think I can go out. And I was like, just ride out with us. If you feel bad, just turn around, ride back. I was like, Are you physically in pain now? And she was like, No, I'm not. Like, what are you pushing against? She's like, I'm afraid I'm going to be and I was like, okay, yeah, that's not what you're experiencing. So like, ride with us for as long as possible. In the worst case scenario, you get off and you walk the horse back to the road, and they'll come pick you up, like their cell phones, like, oh, whoa. You know, we kept, um, assessing that, and she ended up finishing the 50 successfully. I did that again. That same tactic with a rider at City of rocks in Idaho. It was like 100 degrees that day. Was really hot day, and she was riding, and I said, just come out with us. And if you like, there's a turning point on the map. You can, like, ride back to camp really quickly. And we got there, and she was like, yeah, actually, if there's any more downhill, I don't think my legs can do it. And I was like, okay, then you're done. And she did take that out. She she took it and so, like, and both riders had said, kind of, no, I don't want to go back out with the half. But that's, like, that incremental process goal thing. And like, overall, that ended up being, like, the best decision for this rider that decided to quit, she ended up having like, a dehydration, kind of, like, heat stroke situation way later in the day after we were all done. And I was like, Wow. Can you imagine if you had, like, pushed and like Gone, like, you would have probably been really sick later and much further away from help than, like, it would have been a situation. Yeah. So I felt really good about both of those pushes. Like, we pushed one rider and then she ended up triumphing, and we pushed another rider and she, like, just came shy of, like, getting having a trauma situation. She like, quit when she was supposed to. So I think, I think it's really interesting pushing those boundaries of no and like, where does that come from? And I think that that's a messy area that a lot of people that are doing the work and happen to be working with horses. So again, in that spiritual realm, a lot of people don't like to get into that area. And they just like, I think it's actually like not wanting to do hard things, and the hard thing is like an emotional level and mental level, versus like the physical, like you're looking at, like another being's boundaries, your boundaries. This is really an interesting area of which, like, I don't think I'll ever have it figured out, but I think that's where the magic is happening and where something interesting is really going on. And I think a space that a lot more of us could spend some time in,

Lynn: 1:36:48

I agree, I have found the more I've become interested or willing to go into discomfort, whatever form it takes, the richer my life is. And you know, you were talking about the ideas of stoicism, and something that came up for me, which I think is actually Buddhism instead of stoicism. But like, what are you going to be doing if you're not going to work, or if you're not trying these hard things, right? And I think of the ancestors, and I think of the Buddhist thing that says, Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. You know, we still have to have our you know, whether our livelihood is coming through money or we're out on my own, you know, chopping wood and carrying water and hunting for our food, life involves doing some stuff.

Stevie: 1:37:41

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, something that I've, like, really pushed against, and my own actual existential spiritual journey is like, I really don't like the idea that life is suffering, but it's kind of true. It's kind of something I've had to accept. I love Karen Wolf's love it or change it. That is my she uses that in relation to horse training, but that works for everything. And I think that that's where why people seek out endurance sports are difficult things, because you can either experience the suffering in, in the shrinking, right, like in, like, if you step back from trying to do anything hard, things still are hard, like, it just that rubber band of that surrounds you shrinks down around to the lowest common common denominator of yourself, if you don't keep stretching that band outward so you can either choose your own suffering so that the everyday becomes easy, or you can shrink, not do the hard things and be really stressed out by those small day to day living,

Lynn: 1:38:44

yep, what? Stretch,

Stevie: 1:38:49

yeah, exactly

Lynn: 1:38:51

change it. That's a great it's and it's actually not that far. There's an H HGTV show called Love It or List It and and actually, what's interesting, and this is, this is why I think we really do have to recognize how easy it is to just stay where we are. I haven't ever like gone and done the statistics on that show, but in in that where it's like, we're going to remodel your house and we're also going to find you a new house, and then you get to choose whether to love your remodeled house or list the list it and sell. You know, go find the new one. I think, like 80% of the people stay after the remodel. Yeah, and, but the but it is after a remodel. It's not after and so it's like, either way, they're changing it, right? Love it or change it. In both cases, they're changing it. And I think that's just a great mantra to live by, rather than worry about it or bitch about it, or, you know, or you know, complaining is the same thing. But you know, instead of those things, just change it.

Stevie: 1:39:50

I really love I was kind of like a light bulb moment for me about like complaining and resisting things like resist. Complaints in your mind or complaining about something, is this, like, absolutely insane belief that by not liking something, without any action, it'll change, like, if you really think about why you're complaining, like, I looked deep into like, why am I complaining about this? I thought that somehow, and I think it's like not being an adult, right? Like it's that, because this is probably proved true as a child, that, like, if you complain about something, maybe a parent or someone else will change your situation. But as you grow up, you kind of realize you are the person who saves you, which is like a big, big aha moment, and not to I am absolutely for all spirituality. But there's something that has always, like, unsettled me growing up Catholic, which was like, putting the responsibility of being saved outside of your body, like outside of your control, and into somebody else, like that gives like, absolute control over your situation to someone else. And I just don't agree with that. Like I've come to see, I think I've seen the truth for me like this might not be the same for other people, but the truth for me is, like that big recognition that it's both humbling and terrifying, which is, you are the one that saves you. You are the only person that can be the adult, the only person that's going to change things for you. Like, there's no one else that's coming to save you. There's no, you know, romantic knight in shining armor. Like, although, you know, my husband was definitely a good catalyst for, like, helping me become a better person, it was like, not his responsibility or or ability to change who I am that's totally up to me. And like, we are always taught, like, through religion, through movies, romance, all these things that someone else is going to change things for you, and that is just this, like, unfortunately, delusional belief that we have as kids, right? Like, mom and dad will make things better. And then you grow up and you realize it's just you, it's just you. And that's, like, terrifying, but also empowering, like you also have, like, you don't have to give that away to anyone. You have all the power to make all the difference, which is really great, right? And, and so you have the power to either love your situation or to change it, and you really do, and that, you know, I think I've mentioned this to you before. Lynn, we were talking about, like, in my mind, an adult is someone who doesn't blame anyone for anything like their situation, how they feel, like true adulting is taking radical responsibility for everything you experience.

Lynn: 1:42:26

I think that's so powerful, and I What's interesting about the idea of complaining. I had a teacher once show me that if you can actually pay attention to your complaints, it will show you what you're committed to that's good. And then if you can't change it, it's because somewhere buried in there is a big assumption about how the world is going to fall apart if you actually change it, like if I actually confront my mother about this thing, just by way of a quick example, then she's going to hate me, and I've lost my relationship with her. Yeah, and, you know, whatever it might be. And I actually have a process I take people through to help them uncover and what's so interesting is they never have questioned that level of their assumption before, like they'll have a first half, which is, well, my mom's really difficult, you know, we don't, we don't confront her. It's like, Yeah, but deeper under there is what happens if you do well, she'll hate me and I'm disowned, or something along those lines. Your big assumptions have that kind of flavor to them. And so again, like, we can, we can hate pressure, we can hate complaining, we can hate these things, or we can use them to point us in the right direction, because they're great tools for self awareness.

Stevie: 1:43:50

Yeah, absolutely, that's really cool that you go to those levels. Because I think, you know, like, especially in pursuit of things in business, right? Like, we think of those as somewhat impersonal, but, or, or, like, goals, like, I think that's the cool thing again, coming back to endurance sports, because that's my life. But you think that, Oh, it's just about running, or it's just about riding the horses. But in fact, in these, like, very all consuming goals, you end up having to go internal, because the external actually turns out to be a lot easier than you ever expected. It's it all points back to, like, what's the internal temperature and weather that's happening inside of you? Like, that that has to change for the external to, like, even feel good, like, maybe you accomplish the things externally that happens a lot in business, right? Like they make, they make the CEO job, they make the salary they wanted, but it doesn't feel good. So none of the external validations are going to be meaningful if there's not the internal validation and understanding

Lynn: 1:44:55

that's the work, that's the work, that's the work, and it's deep. I've been. Thinking a lot about it, because I've noticed that a lot of times we approach things sort of three or four levels above the place that the real work is happening. You know that those big assumptions that under, underneath stuff, the place where the pressure hits us, where it creates that discomfort, that feeling of agitation, that's where the work is. And usually we're so busy trying to get rid of the agitation that we haven't even realized the agitation is pointing us to what we're trying to achieve.

Stevie: 1:45:31

Yeah, I would say, going back to this being, for whatever reason, a more difficult year for me and endurance, I've noticed. I've not figured it out yet, but I've definitely felt more agitation as you're using the word and in doing endurance sports, like I I'm like, okay, am I even enjoying this right now? And I'm like, trying to be cognizant of, like, I should be enjoying this, like, I get to ride a horse, like, we're, like, quite successful on these rides. Like, obviously, like how we place and how we finish is like, not affecting my joy. And I'm trying to, you know, I, I do, I do think too. We do have to, like, if we do achieve our outcome goals, we really do need to celebrate those things, like take joy in whatever you can and all the steps along the way. But I've definitely been trying to do the work. And why am I showing up differently this year? And what does that mean? And sometimes it's, it's just not clear. And I've definitely thought, like, my mind gives me that option, like, maybe you shouldn't be doing this. Like, don't do these. Like, don't do these rides, like you're not getting the joy out of them. But weirdly, I have this, like, deep drive that's like, no, if you're not enjoying this. You're going to keep doing this until you figure it out. Like something that's like, keep signing up for these races, keep doing the thing, keep, you know, figure it out. And I'm just trying to, like, it's just an interesting like, pattern that I've built a habit that is, like, to keep pushing. And I think that is, like, a really privileged, wonderful habit that I've created, and that my I have the option to back out, but I'm not going to learn anything there and and though I feel stuck, and I think I'm coming to this, like, if you're an endurance writer, listening to this, actually read someone's post, post Tevis. That was like, this was my fourth attempt at Tevis. I have done everything. Like, done all the work, like, really prepared, like, different horse every time. Like, it's like a very like heartbreaking story. And like, there are a lot of like, heartbreaking stories in Tevis, like, you can show up with all the tools. And like, I mean, that trail is just difficult. It was like, a 39% completion rate this year, and it was just like, and last year too. You know, like, last year was super hot. This year, the vetting was a little bit more difficult. I'm not exactly sure what contributed to such a low completion rate this year, because honestly, I thought the weather was amazing. There were only about 100 horses on trail which had less dust, less congestion. It was kind of great as a competitor, not great for the organization trying to actually turn, you know, like break even, which they did not exactly, but you know, like there were a lot of like elements that aligned anyhow, surprising two years of 39% completion rate, which means if you're going to Tevis, there's a higher chance that you won't finish that then you will by far Over like the and I think over time too. I think the overall completion over time has been 46% completion rate. So you like again, always statistically probable that you won't finish over you well. And where was I going with that?

Lynn: 1:48:35

You said she came out to you, you know, you were talking to endurance writers, you know, and one in particular who had sort of this feeling of feeling bad about not completing you were going to probably offer some good advice, I think,

Stevie: 1:48:52

yeah, I was just, you know, I was really moved by that, because I could relate to that, Because I DNF to my first three tevises, and that, you know, it was, it was hard, but actually, I don't know where I was going with that. I know where it's going with that, but reading her post of having I don't know we're gonna have to edit this out. Lynn, going with that. What were we talking about just before that,

Lynn: 1:49:26

before, right before that, we were just talking about like you were still staying in the grind because you didn't want to let yourself out. And for the all that you said, sort of you started with for all those endurance writers out there, I read these posts. And so you were talking about something about you staying in the in the grind, even though part of you wants to leave,

Stevie: 1:49:50

yeah. That's, I think that's it was just, I know that a lot of people like struggle, like, maybe they have, like, reoccurring injuries with their horse. I hear. About that a lot. I I had asked earlier this year on the aerc Facebook page, which has a lot of members, like, what is, what is stopping you from, like, doing a ride? Because there's a lot of members on there that actually don't compete. And I was just curious, because I'm on a few boards that have to do with endurance riding, and we're, like, dwindling in numbers. And I'm like, What's preventing people from getting into the sport? And there was, like, a mirror, sport? And there was, like, a myriad of answers, and a lot of it was, like, kind of disheartening, right? Like, it's the again, they were focusing on outcome goals, which is really hard not to because, like, we've been saying, society is pushing those outcome goals. Like, did you get a buckle at Tevis? Did you finish and and endurance writing, unfortunately, is like, you only get the miles if you complete, right, like, so you, you know. And there's even been chats of, like, what if we did, like, a 50 mile ride, and if you get to 36 miles, you get 36 miles. But that's it. That's been a consideration, which at first I, like, wanted to push against, but I'm like, maybe because, like, who cares? Ultimately, like, it should be about going out and having this, like, supported ride another Sally, who rode Tevis last year with us and finished on Sonic, she had made a post that was, like, thought provoking about, you know, would we even if it wasn't for our egos? Would we even compete in endurance riding? And I was like, you know, actually, I would, because I, you know, she said if, if you didn't have an ego, you would just go out and ride your horse. And I was like, actually, no, because in an endurance ride, it's supported, like, I have water out on trail, I have events. So, like, it is possible to ride endurance without ego. And I think, you know, when everyone is pushing for outcome goals. It really switches our ego on to being like that's what we need to feel happier, feel accomplished. And I think to in response to this lady feeling that you know, not finishing these four years in a row. If you look at all the top riders, most of them are about 5050, and that's, that's crazy, right? These people have done Tevis over and over and over again. You know, have, like, you know, there's some that have, like, outstanding records for whatever reason, and they obviously have a secret that we don't know about, but, like, there'll be people with 20 buckles, but then they'll have like, 15 starts where they didn't finish. You know, they're just, like, showing up every year, over and over and over again. And last year, when we had finished, I had said to myself, like, I always want to bring horses to Tevis, because at least for me, the process of getting a horse ready for Tevis, it fine tunes so many things, and it really helps my process goals. So, like, I would never put that much money and time and effort into the horses, just because it's, like, unrealistic, like, I mean, we are like, paying like, extra money for saddle fitting, doing all the stuff, because Tevis is, like, probably 10 times harder than any other 100. There's just nothing like it. It's just a wildly different experience. And so for me, it feels like a gauntlet that you need to pass through to, like, really test your horsemanship skills. And it's like, really checks me and humbles me. But it's like that process, right? Like, and that process takes everything, like blood, sweat, tears leading up to it, and then it's just a roll of the dice when you get there. And I totally understand, like, it was heartbreaking for me, because I was doing that all the years. I didn't finish too Right. Like, and it just does feel like a roll of the dice. Like, like I said this year I didn't have that as much of an attachment since I already had a buckle from the year before. And I was like, Alex, if you don't feel good, like, just let me know. And we just kept trucking. And somehow it happened, and it was like the weirdest thing to, like, get the buckle this year without really wanting it, like, I was very happy I got it, but it was like, I don't know, just a such a different feeling and, and I just want people to know that aren't, aren't completing, like, if you show up to Tevis, it just means so much, and that that has to be a really big like, The process. Like, you should, you should be?

Lynn: 1:54:01

Yeah, what I heard, this is going to sound like a weird analogy, but to me, it's like saying, you know, I go to the gym because the gym makes me feel good, like the gym is a process of keeping me fit. And it doesn't mean I have to go to a bodybuilding competition. And even if I do go to a bodybuilding competition, I don't have to win. But I did the preparation. I got my body fit, and in a much more complex way, you've gotten yourself ready. You've gotten horses ready, you've gotten your mindset ready for this huge, 10 times harder challenge than any other 100 and that, in and of itself, is a reward

Stevie: 1:54:41

Absolutely and it makes, you know, again, like setting these HARD goals for ourselves, it makes all the other rides feel easier, you know, like, again, like, choose your suffering, right? So if you're if you're choosing stuff outside of your work life that are that's challenging, then maybe going to work isn't going to feel so difficult. And. That is why we do these difficult things, because then we just learn how to handle the process better and to like then create joy in the day to day. The chopping of the wood becomes so much easier, for sure.

Lynn: 1:55:13

So the other thing that's striking me is, who are you doing it for? Because so many times I make a distinction between my mindset when it's either in a proving mode or an improving mode, and in my proving mode, I can almost always tell you I'm trying to prove it not to myself, but to somebody else. And so now I've put my goals outside of myself, waiting for somebody else's approval to tell me I did something

Stevie: 1:55:41

and for the people that matter again, people have heard people who know me have heard me say this before, but I think it's so important to know that nobody that cares about you cares about how you do. They only care about how you feel about how you do. So they just want you to be happy, and they don't care what that looks like. They don't care that you won, you know, like they and if they do, that's like, really a relationship you should probably look into. Like, yeah, like, you don't want friends that only want you if you're winning. Like, that's that's not the that's not what you're looking for. You're looking for the people that want you to be happy.

Lynn: 1:56:21

That's so profound. Stevie Man, what a what a conversation, what a ride. I think we could keep going for hours, but I didn't make that promise to you that we'd gotta keep you for the whole afternoon. So as as we start to wrap up, what's next for you and what would you want people to know about like, like, say somebody wanted to come ride with you, or do something like that. So start with the what's next for you

Stevie: 1:56:49

Sure. So if you're training, especially if you're training for the Gaucho Derby, Derby or Mongol derbies, we do training boot camps for that, but I really enjoy taking people who are interested in getting into endurance out on like intro to endurance boot camps. I will be releasing dates for those in November of this year. For next year, I definitely do some horse leases for endurance, but we're kind of moving away from that and focusing more on boot camps. I'll do smaller leases, so maybe only taking one or two people out on races next year. And I also do, like, one on one lessons. I don't do remote coaching. I do I will coach you and your horse if you come to me, and I will coach you if you come to me. But just I have a lot of people ask, and that's just not where my strength is in helping. So I am looking forward to focusing on doing a lot of like three day retreats, also called boot camps, in the next year again, releasing those dates in November. Follow me on Instagram is actually the best space which I'm at. Adventurous like u r, i s t adventurous Barbie, not you'll you'll know it's me. There's lots of horses on those photos, and that's where I release the most information. Or on Facebook, I'm Stevie Delahunt, and I have a website that I need to get to updating, but that's intergalactic equine. So pretty unique business name. We're intergalactic equine and intergalactic equine.com so those are the ways you can reach out to me. And yeah, I'm looking forward to connecting with people who want to connect with horses, like we even do a couple weekends, where it's like, not even much riding, but like just having a deeper, more profound connection to horses and nature through ourselves. So I do a little bit of that, but my biggest focus is getting people into the idea of endurance sports with horses, so being able to push yourself and push another animal and understanding those boundaries.

Lynn: 1:58:53

I've gotten to do a couple of your boot camp. I've ridden with you four times now, and I'm going to be doing it again. Just let everybody know I want to get ahead of everybody in line to come to your boot camp, and I'll be

Stevie: 1:59:06

messaging you first, because, yeah, we have get to have awesome conversations like this when

Lynn: 1:59:12

recorded all of those, but the man the the boot camps are just amazing and and just working with someone who is so very real about the ups and downs. There's just no sugar coating with you, Stevie, which I think is really, really powerful,

Stevie: 1:59:30

awesome. Well, thank you, Lynn, that's very kind of you to say. And so much fun talking with you again. I always feel like we can talk forever, yeah,

Lynn: 1:59:41

and we will, more than likely, I can't imagine that we won't do this again. This is one of the reasons I keep the podcast going, is because I do think it's really interesting to have people on more than once, because we're all on a journey, and every now and then, it's nice to just check in and say, Hey, how's it going, or how's it been. And so I appreciate you coming back for the. Us.

Stevie: 2:00:01

Yeah, thank you for having me. And yeah, I'm so excited to hear about how your upcoming water ski competition goes.

Lynn: 2:00:08

Yeah, for, well, for not for me, but for Austin, because I don't do competitions, but I'm very excited to hear how his mindset works through the whole thing. And at some point, I haven't had him on the podcast yet, but I'm going to be working on getting him on as well. Because, boy, do we. We have these conversations, but they're in two minute increments at the end of the lake, as one of us is dropping and we're waiting for the waves to settle down.

Stevie: 2:00:31

Oh my gosh, I would love to hear that, especially like with a shift to process goals, because I'm that's so interesting.

Lynn: 2:00:37

It's been it's really been interesting because there is a difference, by the way, between espousing that your mindset has changed and then actually truly living that your mindset has changed.

Stevie: 2:00:51

Oh yeah, we could have a whole podcast on that. That's

Lynn: 2:00:54

that's a whole concept, right there. So, but we can leave people with wanting more. Sounds good. As we close this out, I just want to say to everybody listening, thank you for being here. And if you're interested, you've just heard from Stevie on how to get in touch with her. If you're interested in staying in touch with me, I put out something almost every week at the coaching digest, and you can sign up for that at Lynn at at Lynn carnes.com THANK YOU. There's a place on lyncarns.com for you to sign up with that we'll see you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations, and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now, what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be of value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and, of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.