Student Success at the Center: Remembering Terry O’Banion - Adventures in Advising

In this special episode of Adventures in Advising, we celebrate the life and legacy of Dr. Terry O’Banion—visionary leader, prolific author, and one of the most influential voices in the history of academic advising and the community college movement. Known for challenging higher education to place student learning at the center, Dr. O’Banion’s work continues to inspire generations of educators.

Hosts Matt Markin and Ryan Scheckel are joined by guests Dr. Charlie Nutt, retired Executive Director of NACADA, and Dr. Wendy Troxel, Director of the NACADA Center for Research, who share personal memories, professional reflections, and insights into how Dr. O’Banion’s scholarship still shapes the field today. Together, they honor his enduring impact while asking the important question he often posed: What is academic advising at your institution?

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hello and welcome to a special episode of The Adventures in Advising podcast to celebrate and remember the life of Dr. Terry O'Banion, an individual considered as a visionary leader who challenged those in higher education to place student learning at the center of their mission. Matt Markin, along with Ryan Scheckel. Ryan, what's this episode mean to you?

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, for somebody who started advising what feels like so long ago, there was always longer ago, in my framework, whether it was attending a conference, reading something in the scholarship of academic advising, there was always presented to us this sort of starting point, and that starting Ppint included Terry O'banion's work and so just personally, it's it's a little bittersweet why we're talking about it now and and how we're going to be discussing it, but it's also, it's just so enriching, so encouraging to think about this heritage and and really, ultimately, the influence that any one person can have on such larger conversations. So you know, it's it's like a lot of things in life. It's what you bring to it, and it's got many facets.

Matt Markin  
And according to the theterryobaniionpapers.com,Terry was quote, "One of the most prolific and provocative writers in the history of the community college movement. His legacy lives on through more than 300 publications that continue to shape the field and inspire new generations of educators and leaders. We know Terry had various roles over the decades, and we have our first guest on the special episode, and that is with Dr. Charlie Nutt, retired executive director from NACADA, the global community for academic advising. Charlie, it has been way too long. How are you?

Charlie Nutt  
I'm doing wonderful. I'm doing wonderful. The best job I've ever had is retirement. I loved NACADA, you know that? And I loved academic advising, but I am truly loving retirement, guys.

Matt Markin  
So we wanted to ask you first, you know, if you can maybe tell us about your first impression of Terry and you know, do you remember the first time that that you met him?

Charlie Nutt  
I was Vice President for Student Development Services at Coastal Georgia Community College, and attended the annual Community College conference and a good friend of mine from FSU was there, and he knew Terry O'Banion Well, and so we had dinner, the three of us one night, and I was totally in shock and in awe, and just felt I was sitting there with Terry O'Banion just kind of took me back, because, you know, he was just an amazing person, but very down, very, very easy to get to know. But he had such an impact on the higher education, on advising, particularly community colleges within those pieces, because that was a strong part of his background. But just just an amazing man, did a lot of work, I think, for academic advisory, particularly because he believed in it so much.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, we know about Terry's work in publishing and scholarship and research, but could you talk a little bit with us about just the effect he had on the developing community of advising professionally at that time?

Charlie Nutt  
Absolutely, Ryan. This was the first meeting I had gone to, because I had not even been to a NACADA meeting yet, and so this is the first time I had heard of this strange thing called an academic advisor, because I was at a college when all the faculty were academic advisors. So it was a new world for me to hear about this, what Terry called a long impacting effect on students that most people didn't know existed. His goal was to be sure that everyone understood what academic advising was as it was a profession, and that people needed training, people needed to be developed, people needed the connection with others in the field. And that was an important part of what he believed in, and making those connections, he also was very, very involved with, working with, actually going on campuses and working with, particularly community colleges, with my background with him.

Matt Markin  
And if we're kind of sticking with this theme of academic advising, I know Charlie that you're retired and joined retirement, but how do you hope that maybe the organization of NACADA and the advising profession can continue to honor Terry's legacy in the years ahead?

Charlie Nutt  
I think an important piece will be to do this type of project in which we're honoring him and making sure people know who he is and his background and his impact on the field. But I also think that NACADA has has to continue to be involved with the research perspective, which was what he was very connected to, and wanted to see more research in the field. Wanted to see more professional development in the field. So I think if we look at what his impact was and take it forward, I think the economy will continue to grow and will continue to expand, but particularly in regard to what we do for student success.

Ryan Scheckel  
So you shared a little bit about your first interaction with Terry, and I know that's memorable for sure. I know I've had similar feelings that at dinners, at conferences, sitting next to people I don't know, maybe named Charlie Nutt, but I know you've had other interactions and and and over the years. Is there anything in particular that you know, whether it was formally, through a presentation or a conference or informally, that just really is a core memory that stuck with you, for for your relationship with Terry?

Charlie Nutt  
You know, Ryan, there was so many because, you know, whether you just happened to run across them in the hallway at a conference, or whether, back then, this was long before this technology was up and running. So, you know, we did a lot by phone call within that and those types of things. I think the core memory that I can remember is is sitting with him, with some college presidents that I do personally, who talked a lot about the value of advising in public, but what they were doing on their campuses did not really support academic advising well, and Terry didn't let that stop. You know, when he was the person would say, Well, we believe advisory and assistance. He said, Well, Terry has worked it on your campus, as the person would just kind of have a shock on their face, because, you know, he was the president. She was the president. I don't know, nobody asked me those questions, but he wanted to truly get the President's the provost perspective, because we all know that you could talk a good show. But do you really support advising, and how you provide the advisors opportunities to develop and grow, but even the opportunity to grow in the field on your own campus? You know, we have a lot of advisors who have been advisors for 30 years. That's not good, that's not bad, but sometimes it's because you don't have not given them any opportunity to grow beyond that, that position, you know, can they grow into a director role? Can they grow into a campus wide role? Can there be other aspects. And so I think what they carry was clear on is he wanted advisors to truly grow professionally, but to be part of the campus dialog about student success, and to lead that dialog, not to just have conversations against them. I'm so sorry I did the only airport on St Thomas Island, and of course, a plane would just go over. I apologize guys.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, no worries. Totally fine. But for you, though, like, what qualities do you feel that Terry embodied that made him stand out as both a leader and a person?

Charlie Nutt  
I think one of the things I remember so clearly about him, in working with him over the years, was he, he always wanted to hear other people's response. I think the best way I can describe it because both of you knew her, and maybe didn't know as well as the rest of us, but Virginia Gordon and Terry O'Banion could have been twins, because it didn't matter how many books Virginia wrote, didn't matter how many books Terry wrote, didn't matter what they had done, how many people they talked to, Virginia would always say, Well, tell me what you're doing. Tell me what you're doing on your campus, and Terry did the same thing. It was that quality of having those conversations with others that really made a difference. I think that's what was important. I would watch him in meetings or in conferences and whatever, talking to an advisor and a president or a provost or whatever, and having the same conversation so that that it wasn't just the president who was supposed to talk about student success that the advisor needed to be involved in, in building that on the campus. So I think that those are the pieces I would I remember so clearly about him. 

Ryan Scheckel  
We were thinking about the idea of sort of the era right that time and academic advising, when so much seemed to be changing so quickly, so many firsts were happening, and it's hard not to, in those moments, be mindful of the people who are still here and still with us absolutely and share those perspectives. So we're so glad that we can do this today, but it's also hard not to imagine what what the next things might be. What are the next firsts? What are the big challenges? What are the fights that we need to have? That from your unique position in retirement that you see facing us today?

Charlie Nutt  
That's a good question. That's a really good question, Ryan. I think some of the challenges we have that we're going to have to continue to face is the technology used on campuses. I don't think we truly got a handle on that yet. You know, I think we ran like crazy during the pandemic, years to pretend like we had a handle on technology in order to survive. And then I think we kind of let that go at that point, soon as we got back on campuses. So I think we have to continue to look at how to provide that, bringing technology, bringing advising together, I think we have to really have some strong conversations campus wide, about everyone's connection to student success and bringing together academic areas, student development services areas, advising areas and having those conversations around the table so that we continue to move forward. I think that's a big one. One of the programs that I've tried to read, what school I was at, I don't remember, but it was somewhere, maybe in Michigan, but we actually spent a full day of the three days together defining what student success was and defining the strategies for student success. We had academic faculty. We had full time academic advisors. We had administrators. It was a community college system, so there were administrators from all the campuses. The chancellor was there. They spent a full day. And it was really exciting, because that was the first time they'd ever had those conversations. You know, it was the first time they had stopped to say, Okay, how do we move forward with advising, and how do we keep it moving where we want it to go? And it was really exciting to see those and I think that's something Ryan and Matt, that this type of conversation we're having is so important to continue to have to bring that forward as we think about moving forward, I you know, I've not, I haven't been I've enjoyed retirement. So I have not been in particularly, have not jumped into the page. You know when, when Melinda was in the position, when Kyle's been in the position, I always said to them, I will never call you. You call me, you know, because I wasn't going to be the person calling said, I don't think you ought to do it that way. I think. And so that's been kind of what the strategy was. And I think it worked very well because they felt like that. They knew I trusted them with the association, but I was behind them and the way we needed to go. Because one of the things I think we continue to see it. I don't think we have a handle on it yet, unless y'all are seeing things much differently than I am, and you may be, but I still think as we bring new advisors onto campuses, I don't think we're doing enough professional development with brand new advisors about really what academic advising is, really, how to define it, how to organize it, how to bring it together, then how to connect with students in those conversations. And because of that, I think we've got to continue to build these conversations like this. But also, you know, I'm an old fart, bring some new people in, bring new advisors in, have them, put them on the spot about what student success is and how you move forward, because those conversations are so important. I think if we don't continue to have those, we're not really going to move where we want to move. I think the past, I want to say four and a half years for all of higher education were pretty devastating with with the pandemic and schools closing and everybody at the last minute, you know, we went from people who had like you two, who were doing technology all the time, to people who never had turned technology before, and all of a sudden they were doing everything online and how you organize it, how you put it together. And I continue to say we need to build on that panic stage for the future, because it set up a lot of wonderful programs on our campuses. And if we forget that and go back to the old days, we're not really going to move forward. 

Matt Markin  
I think it's a perfect way to say that. And Charlie, you're enjoying retirement, and we're so glad that you were able to join us on this podcast. It's great to have you back on the adventures advising podcast and and to share a little bit about Terry obania, thank you so much for being on again. 

Charlie Nutt  
Listen, I'm so excited for what y'all are doing and of course, Matt, you know how much I value you for the profession. We gotta, we gotta keep you moving, my friend, because you've done so much already in just a few years, and I'm so proud of you, and it's just been amazing to see the work.

Matt Markin  
Thank you so much again. I appreciate you. 

Charlie Nutt  
It's good to see you. Ryan, so good to see you as well. Take care, guys.

Matt Markin  
We have a returning guest, and let's go ahead and bring that person on. And that is Dr. Wendy Troxel. Wendy, how are you?

Wendy Troxel  
Really good. Hi, Matt. Hi Ryan. Thanks for having me today.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and you know, returning guest, Dr. Wendy Troxel, also director of the NACADA center for research and academic advising and student success over at Kansas State University. And Wendy, I'm going to just kind of also mention now that we have you on that prior to Terry's passing, you and I had been trying to hopefully plan having you guest host an episode of the Adventures in Advising podcast to actually interview Terry. And I know you had been doing so much extensive research, developing questions you had been communicating with Terry to really try to have that awe inspiring interview. And I thought maybe this first question to throw it, you would be, you know, what were maybe some of those conversations that that you had with him, and anything that that stood out the most to you?

Wendy Troxel  
Yeah, it's crazy timing, you know, of this. I mean, I certainly have cited him for years. And, you know, I advise doctoral students who cite him in everything, you know, and and so he had reached out to, to us, to me, when the new website came up, the vanion papers website came up to just to let us know it was there. This was a year and a half ago or so. And so he and I had been kind of virtually connecting. And then, you know, when y'all had the idea of a of an interview with him, I was really excited. I had never met him other than, you know, virtually over emails and such. And so probably three months ago or so, he and I got together on Zoom, and I met him for the first time in 2D at least, and we had just this really fun conversation for a little over an hour. We just kind of kept talking and talking, and I said at the time, you know, like, what you might want to save some of this stuff for, for for for our recording, and he was a little nervous about it, as he had had some health issues, and just wanted to be sharp and wanted to be, wanted to be brilliant and delightful and prolific as and he was certainly with me and and so, you know, we had, we had it scheduled, didn't we? We had the interview scheduled, and he had reached out and said he just wasn't doing well and wasn't feeling well. And so when I learned that he had passed away, it was it was a real blow and and just so thankful that I had gotten the opportunity to chat with him. So we really talked about, kind of how he got into all this, where was, where, what was the impetus for his writing? Because he really didn't write that much in the academic advising area. I mean, he was, you know, certainly, just incredibly productive, and especially in the community college leadership area and and I hope that listeners go to theterryobanionpapers.com and just see the extent of writing. I find nuggets in everything that that I read of his, even if it's not specifically about academic advising. But one of the first things we talked about, there are a couple of things I want to get to at some point. First is the new terms these days. The new terms these days about the holistic advising. For example, I just sorry, I'm going to be bold. I'm. Just like, you know, old wine and new bottles and and I just keep saying, you know, the developmental advising was, was fully explored decades ago. And so he, he and Crookston. He and Burns, Crookston are usually cited together. So about 1972 they but they both put out, you know, what is, what is often cited. And Crookston's, you know, was called a developmental view of academic advising as teaching. And O'Banion's was an academic advising model. And he started to laugh. And so I was, I was asking him about, what do you think about this holistic, you know this holistic term, this view, this term, holistic advising. And he start, and you know, developmental Crookston O'Banion. He's like, you know, I never met burns Crookston is he had he had never met him. Once, never talked to him, never collaborated with him, or anything. So it's so interesting. He finds it he used to find it fascinating to you know, that they were just linked in every dissertation and every lit review kind of thing. And so then we really started talking about, you know, how he got into the advising space and and in he used the term that many of us use. He's actually the quote I stumbled into academic advising. And so, yeah, nothing new under the sun these days. And so he was dean of students at Central Florida Community College. It was called junior college at that time, starting in about 1960 and he was there for many years of and was a faculty members as well. And so he got intrigued by the first book on faculty advising was by Hardy in 1970 and Ryan we were talking about, you know, the the the academic, the advising model article that has been reprinted in the NACADA journal multiple times, most recently, I think the 1994 one is most recent, and there aren't any references at the end of that, which is kind of interesting. I didn't really notice that until you said that, but he talked a lot about that book. He talked a lot about that faculty advising book. And, you know, he was also, you know, kind of a psychologist and had a sociologist brain, and so he talked, what he talked about was the conversations that faculty members and staff members, mostly faculty, at that point when he was doing it, what the nature of those conversations was, what got him really interested in and digging deeper into this area. And even then, there was an emerging trend to having staff members hired for the role. And so he really thought about this, this kind of humanistic approach to working with students. And so he and was also really interested in how faculty especially, how faculty members, especially and staff members are trained for the role, how they get professional development. So we did an experiment. He got a grant really early on, and did an experiment about different advising structures and and he had, he he he worked with faculty with no training in advising, faculty who were trained in advising related elements. And then he had a group of both. And then he worked with students, and he said that he assessed satisfaction along the way, and we talked about satisfaction as a construct, but he was really interested in the in the nature of those conversations and and he talked about just one more thing, and then I'll then I'll get to get to questions, because I'm just kind of getting the dump of the initial part of our conversation, but he talked about working with students in a humanistic way. He talked, he said I had a humanistic approach to talking with my advisees, and he asked every student three questions, who am I to reflect on these who am I? Where am I going? What difference does it make, anyway? And he thought that those three questions to get students to reflect on their personal values, goals, visions, dreams, was a really important beginning of any advising conversation. And in his five step model, you see that the goal setting, stuff is, is, is front loaded, which is where it should be. Then program choice, course, choice follows from there. And so he said, you know, he said, as we know from the literature, and I tell this all the time at. Academic relationships matter to students, and it's really evident in the more frequent conversations that any faculty or staff member has with students, which is the advising relationship,

Ryan Scheckel  
For sure. And you know, we, we've talked a little bit about this, I don't know it's it's sometimes referred to as the parallax effect, or a dolly zoom in the in the movie industry, where it feels like, in one moment, you're moving both backward and forward. And I think that's, it's inherent in the experience of academic advising, the way that we talk through these things, but especially when you engage the scholarship of advising that some of these topics have been around forever, because we're talking about people learning at institutions. But there's a kind of simplicity in that 1972 article that I think is reflective of the era and and I was wondering, if you know, especially given your perspective, Wendy in, in talking with somebody who's like a new scholar now, or or somebody who's been in advising, say, for the last decade, and then also talking with somebody who had been around the advising conversation since the 1970s. Do you feel like that simplicity is just our perspective from now, or do we feel like it was there then?

Wendy Troxel  
Interesting. You know, there's another really good article in the NACADA Journal that I had had forgotten about until I kind of really looked it up by Tom Grites in 2013 it's volume 33 number one, where he really...Tom documented the rise of developmental, developmental advising. And it's difference from prescriptive, for example And I do think that around that time, with the student personnel, point of view, document and and, you know, at the at the time, so this is right after Civil Rights movement, or really, in the, in the heart of it, we're still, you know, there's still conflict, major conflict, and in the world that this idea of whole student, I think it was provocative from an academic point of view. And so I think there was a lot of and I others experts can certainly correct me on this, but I think there was starting to be this separation of the faculty world and the staff world and student affairs and and the classroom, the out of classroom experience and all that, and, and I really took the psychologist, sociologist, social social psychologist, social worker, you know, all that to kind of remind us about the the complexity, really the complexity of the student journey, especially right out of high school, 18 year old brains and such. But I think when scholars started writing about it and acknowledging and validating it. I think that was relatively new. It was kind of, you know, I love the concept of the unthought known, you know, it's like something that's you hear and you go like, Well, yeah, duh, you know, yes, of course. That's pretty simple, but until you kind of play it out, you know, unpack it, it remains on interrogated, I guess. And so I do think, I think it's, it certainly is still simple today. But, I mean, I'm at universities all the time, in my role where I asked them the question that he asked, what, 50 some years ago now, what is academic advising at your institution? And he talks in many places about, you know that that those conversations only come from the philosophy of the institution about what this conversation is and what this role is. And so it's frustratingly simple, I think, you know, and, and we've tried to make it pretty complex, but to your point, I do think at the time, it was so and then the fact that that multiple people were writing about it in the same couple of years meant that something pretty significant motivated it. 

Matt Markin  
And you're mentioning about, you know, Terry asking that question to institutions, and you know, in your role, you're visiting institutions, you're helping them out. I mean, how do you think institutions might be able to maybe honor his vision in ways that are practical and relevant today.

Wendy Troxel  
Have a philosophy statement. State what it is like, state it out loud, on paper, on a website, document it and and have it come from collaborative conversations with those who are both closely and tangentially involved. I mean, that's all he asked. Was that that you consider, that the institution, consider what this role is, and land on it, and that those who did the role, practice the role, took it seriously, and that there's a literature base behind it, there's a pedagogy to it, and it matters. It matters with for persistence and ultimately the binary that is retention and success down the line.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, we were, we were thinking a little bit about the listener to this podcast and their familiarity or or perhaps lack thereof, of the the way that we consider the scholarship of academic advising, the way it's presented to us. And I'd say that the relative complexity at this point, the multiplicity of views. So for somebody who's like looking to dip into this, this conversation, maybe for the first time, read something from possibly 50 years ago or whatever. Is there anything in in Terry's work that you particularly want to draw anyone's attention to, that you feel really still resonates today in our context?

Wendy Troxel  
I got a copy of and I asked him about this and and he just he laughed. He couldn't stop laughing. So he did a monograph in 2016 that was published by the League for innovation in the community college, along with the National American University, and the title is Bread and Roses, helping students make a good living and live a good life. And he said that is the one I'm most proud of. He said, Of all of the things that he's ever written, He loved that the most. He was so focused on the student at the center and academic relationships, whether it's an advisor or whoever else a student connects with, that helps a student understand that, you know, the context of this decision to go into higher education, and he certainly, certainly was a believer in kind of some goal setting, career related goal setting. But you know, his focus on the human and what to kind of balance their visions and dreams and goals beyond the career oriented stuff was really important to him, and so, you know, I don't mind the term holistic advising. I actually think it's more appropriate to say that we advise students holistically. So no matter what approach, you know, if you're appreciative or relational or motivational interviewing or developmental or whatever, if we recognize that the student is a whole person, and the things that they do and care about and and struggle with and and celebrate matter In all of it, then, yeah, I don't know so that that is, I got it, I think it's probably available in the O'Banion papers, but I had gotten a I had gotten a hold of it a bit ago, and so that was fun, because, because there's new research out. Actually, I was just at a conference last week, the Higher Education Policy Conference, and the Gallup folks did a presentation and of a pretty major study that that they were doing and with students and parents, you know, the value of higher education. And so I wrote this down. I just want to, you know, make sure I have it that the results are that both parents and students acknowledge that getting a college degree is still relevant for helping prepare, prepare for a job, a career or a skill set that helps them get ahead, but they don't necessarily name that job or that career, so that there is preparation. Because, you know students these days, and you know this better than I do know that the landscape is constantly changing, technological advances, emergence of AI. They don't know what jobs are going to be available and what they're going to look like, but that college helps them prepare for a job, a career and a skill set as well as you know. You know having. And skills that help them navigate. You know, a complex, ever more complex world is, is still a value, and that's, that's, that's good to see, and that that would make him happy. 

Matt Markin  
But you mentioned a couple of times about like, the the human element of it, of all of this, and with all these emerging technologies, all these changes, initiatives, priorities, shifting, all of that. How do we still convince stakeholders that the human aspect is still important?

Wendy Troxel  
Man, if we could figure that out, we've got. You may be aware that through the research center. We're doing these little mini research projects, and the current one is on AI and advising. We just are finished step one of gathering some evidence. And step two, if listeners, if you're not in the respondent pool, send me an email. wgtroxel@ksu.edu get into that respondent pool. And a number of universities last year did a similar kind of study that we're working with and reading the responses from students. You know, what are the benefits? What are the withdrawal you know, the challenges of AI in your advising relationship, we asked students this, you know, and some of them said, If I can't use it, they shouldn't be able to use it. First of all, some of them said, but others, you know, they understand the efficiency aspect of it, as long as the information is accurate and correct, like degree audit stuff, but you know that they, our students, are less confident and less secure than we probably give them credit for, and that they give them credit for. So they they do still want to talk with others, with with knowledgeable humans who have been around for a little while. I think the tip, the tough part, is, can even convincing the students of that, though, I talked with a lot of institutions about, you know, how do we get our students to actually come to us and like you gotta, you gotta find creative, compelling ways, you know, to make it compelling, you know, for them. And so, you know, what an implicit and explicit messaging, you know, is there. But then the other thing is, how do we document the influence of that, you know, how do we, how do we make the case to administration. And, you know, I think that's the newest practical, practical, significant study that studies that need to be done is, what is the message about the importance of the that that human contact, and, and, and how does it show up? Besides, yeah, my advisors nice. We talked about tomato season and we talked, you know, what, what? What matters in the things that they have goals about, about their success, about their figuring out how to navigate things. And so I think we do have to consider at the institution level, at the unit level, at the department level, how to document those interactions and how to connect it to the intended outcomes of of the unit. And if the intended outcome of the unit is we're going to release holes. Did you Yes. No. Okay, whatever. But if, if, if, if we need to make the case, which we do for AI, will allow us to do the more important things. To have these conversations, we've got to provide the evidence for that and assess it in some way.

Ryan Scheckel  
Looking over some of Terry's work from the past, the one of the through lines is the the technology question. I think just me offering an opinion, the concept of humanistic approach is in direct contrast with the mechanistic approach so much of the literature post World War II, especially in the United States, was so positivist, logical, bureaucratic and organized. How do we manage this massive influx of people, the diversity of people, the movement of people, and the transfer and college credit transcript process, just historically speaking, what Terry and other contemporaries were writing about in the 70s was a response to decades worth of institutions trying to respond to the growth of higher education, particularly in the United States. Um. Yeah, and losing the point through that process of trying to just manage, manage financial pressures, regulatory pressures, social pressures and those sorts of things. And we've mentioned it a couple times here, that through his writing, he was in ways controversial or challenging, or whatever I'm thinking. Of our colleagues listening and if they want to challenge in similar ways, but perhaps aren't going to get an article published on it. What are some other ways they can challenge these status quo, these, these influences that are pushing practice and policy and decision making that might be a little bit shorter step from where they are right now.

Wendy Troxel  
One of the one of the things that I really appreciate about where NACADA is headed, and we have had wonderful seasons, is, you know, under Dr. Kyle Ross's leadership. Now NACADA is going to get more provocative in what we and what we put out the stands that were that we're taking as an association. We, a doctoral student and I are doing the analysis of the first two questions of the month this past summer, which is the case loads question. So look for, look for an actual because, you know, NACADA has never, you see, you see a number out there, but that's never been a number that NACADA as an association, has said is the number. We've never said that, because the answer is, it depends. What is advising at your institution. So we will have some one of the reasons for the question of the month series is to come out with some position papers and some research briefs. But, but, but really, to take stand, take a stand on some of these things. And so there will be some literature, some new literature coming that that should will help the sport, or you get course, gotta have somebody read it. I I think where, where? Where are voices heard at an institute whose voices are heard at an institution, sometimes has to be a creative strategy to get that in. You know, often say, you know, if you teach, you know, as a faculty member, if you teach as you were taught, the question is, do you advise as you were advised? And still, many of the academic leaders went to college at a time that that was very different. Advising was, was very, very different. Fun fact, my freshman advisor was a faculty advisor in my department at my college, and was also my father. So my father was my he was chair of the music department at Muskingum College, and was my first academic advisor. So I had a very humanistic approach, although he kind of stuff, you know, he separated the academic with, with that couldn't, couldn't skip a class. The faculty would mark me out. It was horrible. But, no, it's actually wonderful. But, you know, there, there is an increasing number of our wonderful members who are finding ways to tell the story in an hour. I have a meeting with one of our doctoral students who just got all the way to the president at her institution to tell the story of what the advising interaction means to persistence, retention, credit hours, GPA, and she's got charts and graphs and bullets and numbers and and, and so I told her recently, I'm like, dude, you got to write this up. Like, we got to write this up. Share this with your with your colleagues, because she, she, you know, had that. How do I tell this story and have the academic leaders listen to it? It took her a long time to get up through the had to go to the dean, then the Associate Dean, then the dean and the Vice Provost, and the provost then got it all the way to the President, and they're all in. And so they need to see the evidence we need to see if we're going to take credit for the things that we tend to take credit for, we better be ready to take blame for things that are out of our control. And so focusing on what do we intend for advising to be in this unit department, college, leads you to the kind of evidence that will help tell that story, and we've got to, you know, get feedback from students and from ancillary places and the collegial, collaborative conversations that happen getting advisors. Into curricular meetings. I think is really important getting if, if, if you have a university with primary role advisors and faculty advisors, or just primary advisors, you know, getting them seen as academic professionals is a cultural shift that that can help kind of move that toward, oh, you've got expertise here, that that we need. So I don't know it's, it's a, it's an, a contextual thing, but all comes down to, what's your evidence that this matters.

Matt Markin  
Getting into the table, what's the evidence, getting that story told, and maybe kind of bring it full circle. You know, we started with, you know, when do you talking about having, get to have that conversations with Terry, getting to finally meet him virtually, the research that you were doing in preparing for the interview? Anything else you want to add, or, you know, or how maybe Terry's maybe has influenced you personally?

Wendy Troxel  
You know, as a faculty member, and I read a lot of drafts and a journal reviewer, I lead a lot of manuscripts, and I always challenge the authors to really think about why they're using sources that are decades old. Update your sources, more current sources, but this is anchor literature. I mean, this is anchor literature. There are a lot of things written these days that started there. And to really critically, critically analyze the connections, the threads in the literature. And to to and to, you know, make the case for Don't be afraid. I would say, don't be afraid to go back and read Eric White advising at the core in the general education journal. It, you know, and Tom grits and and the original works of Crookston and O'Banion and Lowenstein, obviously, and Hagan, just because they're old sources doesn't mean they are out of date. And so talking with him, he reminded me a lot of my dad, who's who's still alive and still writing his rights historical fiction. It reminded me a lot of my dad, because I just, I just would love to sit at his knee and and just kind of hear his current thoughts about higher education. And he's still in the he was still in the game. He just a few years ago, helped Kansas State University open the Institute for the Department of Community College Leadership. And so we had connections to Kansas State pretty recently, just a few years ago. And so still really churning on the human aspect of this journey. That is that in in many ways, hasn't changed, and in some really challenging ways, has become ever more complex and so. So, I guess, continue to find the threads. Don't just quote Terry O'Banion, because your article you just read, did go back and read the original stuff and reflect on it today, and then write stuff on that.

Matt Markin  
Awesome. Ryan, anything to wrap us up? 

Ryan Scheckel  
I just especially encourage folks who've heard the name but didn't read it. It's so accessible, which for somebody who grew up through the development of the Internet age, is still a marvel and worth celebrating, that we can have that kind of access. But I also know that there are some folks who work at community colleges and often don't feel represented in academic advising conversations. I know that there are people who are in primary faculty or academic staff roles who often don't feel represented in academic advising conversations. And you can find yourself and it's scholars like Terry O'Banion who you may find that real resonance with if it's not somebody publishing today.

Wendy Troxel  
So true, and I could just make read one quote from his original he talks about the process of academic advising, and he says, What is the process of academic advising, too often, just reflect on where you are today. Programs have been planned on the basis of available personnel, such as faculty, or on the base of on the basis of some philosophical rationale that has been shoddily stated, If stated at all. Seldom have programs been constructed and coordinated on the basis of the process or nature of academic advising. What is academic advising at your institution? Stake your claim, write it down, collaboratively, agree on it and then live it out.

Matt Markin  
Well, food for thought. Dr. Wendy Troxel, thank you so much for being on the podcast again.

Wendy Troxel  
Thank you guys. Appreciate it so much.

Ryan Scheckel  
Thanks, Wendy. You know, I'm really grateful that we had the chance to have the conversations we did in this podcast episode, obviously reflecting on the impact, the contribution, the significance of Terry O'Banion, and not only his work in the sort of published sense, but also all the relational ways he influenced the direction of academic advising. You know, whether someone feels like they're the kind of person who can do that sort of thing or not. The reality is, the opportunity is there. It's one of the things that excites me the most about the work that we do as educators in an academic advising setting. It's not just the effect we can have with our students in those interactions. It's not just the way that we can nudge practice and policy and perspectives at our institutions individually, but the the conversation that we can contribute to in so many ways, whether it's volunteering in organizations, appointed or elected positions of leadership, presenting at conferences, informal conversations with colleagues, wherever they may happen. And then yes, of course, the the published opportunities across the higher ed and disciplinary fields, you know, there's just so many ways that the perspectives we have, the experiences we've lived through, and the the knowledge that we've generated, can be shared and make a difference, if there is anything, I feel like my limited knowledge of Terry O'Banion really has solidified for me through these conversations, it's that very present and real opportunity. Yes, the world was different in the 60s and 70s, but I don't know that people are that different. Technologies change. They come and go. Policy and leadership and financing, but but advisors and students, organizations and institutions. At the core, they're people, and they're people like Terry O'Banion, and they're people like Charlie Nutt and and Wendy Troxel and and like our listeners. So that's one of the things that encourages me most. Yeah, there's a sort of a melancholy about stopping and reflecting and thinking about someone who's not here anymore. And that's always going to be the case, but I I'm also encouraged by not only the legacy, but the challenge, the challenge that Terry O'Banion presents to everyone through his work and through his life and through his impact on other people, and a challenge that is also somewhat with an edge, being willing to address things that aren't quite right, being willing to have conversations that maybe challenge the status quo or hold others to account for perhaps their walk not aligning with their talk. That's that's something that's always present as well. We can nudge, we can shove, we can gently guide. We can put our thumb on the scale. The question is, will we? And I'm so encouraged by the example of those who do, those who engage in the conversation in the many, many different ways and different scopes and scales that you can it's one of the reasons why we're doing what we're doing right now. And I'm so glad for the history that all of those efforts are built upon, and and that includes the life and and work of Terry O'Banion.