Mentorship, Flexibility, and Staying Student-Centered - Adventures in Advising

In this episode of Adventures in Advising, guest host Dr. Brendan Caputo welcomes his longtime mentor, Dr. Ellen C. Miller, Senior Associate Dean for Pre-Health Advising at Hofstra University, for a wisdom-packed conversation about advising as both a profession and a calling. From her own nontraditional path as a first-generation student to nearly four decades of supporting future health professionals, Ellen reflects on the power of mentorship, lifelong learning, adult learners, pre-health advising, professional growth, and why advisors should never become “dream crushers.”

Listeners will hear about Hofstra’s evolving identity in health professions education, the challenges of the enrollment cliff, the irreplaceable human side of advising in an AI age, and the magic that happens when students and professionals are given room to grow. 🧭✨ 

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Transcript

Matt Markin  0:13  
Well, hello and welcome back to the Adventures in Advising podcast. I'm sure this is going to be a fantastic episode. This is Matt Markin, and we have a guest host, and it's someone that is a good friend of mine. Dr. Brendan Caputo is back with us. Hey, Brendan.

Brendan Caputo  0:29  
Hey, Matt. How's it going?

Matt Markin  0:31  
Very well. And driving in today, I would realize that, you know, even though we're recording this, for those that are listening, it's actually April, but by the time someone is listening to this. It is May, and it has been a year since your episode came out, when you were on the podcast, and that was episode 128, why students wait, unpacking academic procrastination. We did not plan it this way, did we?

Brendan Caputo  0:56  
No, we did it. This is good timing. Thanks for letting me know that that's so cool.

Matt Markin  1:01  
So it's a fantastic episode. I know we got great feedback on that. I know you had people that reached out to you after listening to that episode. So please check that one out if you haven't listened. And also check out Brendan's article in the second issue of academic advising quarterly that was also about academic procrastination. So Brandon, you've kind of been doing it all.

Brendan Caputo  1:25  
Yeah, love it, and can never talk too much about procrastinating, but sometimes if you talk too much, you're not doing enough. So I'm trying to do the doing, and that's why I'm so excited to be able to do today and be part of this podcast. I'm really excited for today. 

Matt Markin  1:40  
Yeah, so I'm glad that you're here as a guest host, so I've taken enough time I'm going to jump off, bring your guest on. Have a fantastic conversation.

Brendan Caputo  1:49  
Brendan, Thanks, Matt. EllenMiller, is here, everybody.

Ellen Miller  1:54  
Good morning. Dr. Caputo. It is a pleasure.

Brendan Caputo  1:58  
I just I adore you, Ellen. Before we get started, what I'll do is, I'll give a little introduction so our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. Dr. Ellen Miller. So, Dr. Ellen Miller is the Senior Associate Dean for pre health advising at Hofstra University, with nearly four decades of dedicated service to the institution, Dr Miller has made a lasting impact on generations of students through leadership, teaching and mentorship, which I have experienced. A proud Hofstra alumni. She earned her BA in psychology, masters in education, Certificate of Advanced Study and Educational Administration, and a Doctor of Education from all from the same institution she has so faithfully served. In her role, she guides aspiring health professionals with expertise, compassion, and I must say, an unwavering commitment to student success. Beyond her work in pre health advising, Dr Miller is deeply committed to research and supporting adult and non traditional learners. She is widely recognized as a wealth of knowledge and academic advising, and brings both insight and heart to everything that she does. And on a personal note, I can say that she's not just an exceptional leader and educator, but she's also an incredible mentor and all around, amazing human beings. So thank you for joining us. Dr Ellen Miller.

Ellen Miller  3:25  
thank you, Brendan, and I am humbled by your words. Again, an honor to be here.

Brendan Caputo  3:30  
So grateful for you being here. I want to share a little story, and then we'll we'll get right into the questions, but just so folks know if you're listening today, it's the first time you're listening. Ellen and I have known each other now. Can you believe it for 19 years? Wow, yes, that's amazing. Seven I was taking a course in higher education at Hofstra University for their master's program in counseling College Student Development counseling, and the vice president at the time, Dr Holly styrop, brought me over to meet you to see what it was like to be a more non traditional counselor, not just in a mental health setting. I sat by you at Orientation, first appointment of the day, 9am the student's name was Joe. I remember that he wanted to be a physician's assistant. You left the room to assist for about 10 minutes with some academic issues, and came back, and I had a whole schedule made with him, and knew what he wanted to do with his career. And as soon as that appointment ended, you said, Hey, do you think you might want a job at in working in higher education and academic advising? And the next thing you know, a few months later, I'm on your pre health team doing academic advising. So I just want to start with a grateful tone for you for setting the tone for me and recognizing my skill set and bringing me to academic advising. So thank you. 

Ellen Miller  4:58  
I knew intuitive. You were a natural the way you just, you know, picked up helped the student was amazing.

Brendan Caputo  5:07  
Well, I really appreciate that. So thank you. But before we begin, I must say, you know when the title of the podcast is adventures and advising. So people listening today probably are hoping that they get a good glimpse into what your adventure and advising and higher education would be if folks are really paying attention today. What are some of the key takeaway points that they should be listening for in your adventure and advising?

Ellen Miller  5:34  
So as Brendan mentioned, I have been doing this quite a while, so what sticks out to me, really is the ability to be flexible, because as as time changes, students change administration change, you need to be flexible and go with the flow. That's one. Always seek out professional development, like opportunities and NACADA, other professional organizations, and always be open to learning from the student. Right? Students don't exist in a vacuum. So they don't just go to college. They have families, they have other responsibilities, they have work. We never know what's going on in students life. To be open to them and again, learn from that. I've learned so much from this, from the students, and also the younger professionals that I work with or supervise. Again, everything is a learning opportunity and take advantage of, you know, every professional development opportunity that you can because, again, in this profession, sometimes we don't make a lot, but it is incredibly rewarding and take advantage even of courses the university your institution offers, or, again, any other outside ways to develop and grow. My takeaways.

Brendan Caputo  6:56  
that's solid. I know that I've learned a whole bunch from you as well, and that's one thing that I've instilled in my staff, is trying to make sure that you develop yourself as a human being, as a professional. So I've learned that from you, and I'm glad that you are trying to instill that in others. But what I'd like to start with, and I actually don't know the answer to this question, so this will be the first time I'm hearing it, Did you always know you wanted to be an academic advisor? Or was this something that kind of came about by happenstance?

Ellen Miller  7:29  
Interesting Brendan is, I always know. I always knew I wanted to be something in education, I had a a school counselor back in middle school who was actually wonderful, compassionate kind. She was great, and I decided that's what I wanted to be. And then when I went into high school, I had, unfortunately, just the opposite, you know, a counselor, maybe that was dismissive of some of the concerns I had. Was a tough period for me in high school. And then when I got to Hofstra as a first year student, I had a kind of non traditional path, so I didn't have a lot of guidance. So I was always, I think, always knew I wanted education. Didn't really want to be a teacher and and always knew something like I said in that counseling realm, but I wanted to emulate that really great experience I had as a young teenager, but also be the kind of advisor that I didn't have as I got older. I was kind of lost. I was a first generation student. Had a narrow view of even where to go to college, of what careers were available to me. I had to work a lot, so I didn't have a lot of time to explore different things. So I wanted to be the advisor that I didn't have. And again, love school like my you know, my life revolves around semesters and learning. You know, always growing. But again, I really wanted to be for the students, what I didn't get, sure?

Brendan Caputo  9:09  
So you, you finished your undergraduate at Hofstra, and then what? What happened after that?

Ellen Miller  9:14  
So that's a great question. So then I knew I wanted to get my foot in the door. I had been actually a secretary here as a, actually started as a sophomore in college. I worked full time, went to school at night, but once I got my degree, I wanted to work in a more professional role, so I started financial aid, where I cried pretty much every day. If I had a big checkbook, I wanted to just give out money. And I knew that wasn't for me, but it was a great beginning right to how to have difficult conversations with students and parents. So I knew I wanted academic advising. I did try two or three times to to get into advising, but the last time worked, and I'm grateful for that. I remember starting out as a new advisor during registration my first day, I think I had seven appointments, and I was grateful that I had been a student there so I knew the curriculum. And then I remember my boss that first week saying, Okay, do you want to do athletics, or do you want to advise free health students? And I'm thinking, Oh, my goodness, neither, because I'm not athletic, and chemistry was my nemesis. But I thought, You know what? Free Health advising, I'll work with motivated students. I growing up, I wanted to be something in the health field, but chemistry was my undoing. So I'm like, what's the next best thing? I got exactly a half hour of training. The person I took over from was leaving on a train for Washington to go forward to his new gig in Georgetown. And I kind of had a, you know, teach myself, but, you know, I was able to do that. And I absolutely love working with pre health students. I say my training also is by watching Grey's Anatomy and now the pit. But again, love, love working with these students. You know their their dedication and their perseverance and their grit is really inspiring. 

Brendan Caputo  11:15  
It sounds like you kind of learned just by absorbing yourself and what good opportunities would be around conferences? Yes, yes. So you then, did you just stay in academic advising, or did you move around? Did you figure like, Okay, well, hush, university seems like a great place to be. Did you move to another institution? What? How did that develop something...

Ellen Miller  11:41  
So previous, previous to my first full time role here, I had mentioned I was a secretary as a an undergrad, I went to a Delphi for a little bit. I worked in their HEOP program and really fell in love with academic advising. So I knew, again, as I was wanted to head back to Hofstra. I knew I wanted something in that role, but I was in advising for a couple years, and then a great opportunity came to me. I was on the President's Task Force on part time students back in the early 90s. So they wanted to recognize, you know, adults returning to school provides one stop shop services for those students going to school in the evening. So I was asked to head up an office for that. So I did that for a few years. Then I went back to academic advising to pre health students. Love that. Then really had another opportunity in Saturday College, which was a degree program, again, specifically for adult learners to attend school on the weekends, I was able to help develop the curriculum and all the services offered for these these students who could go to school only on the only on the weekends, but still complete a degree in four years. So a lot of feedback we had for student from students in the part time studies office was it's going to take me eight years right to complete an undergraduate degree. That's just too long. So we created this weekend college program, and they were able to do that in four years. So be a being able to develop that from start to finish, and seeing the the first class graduate was wonderful. But unfortunately, with that opportunity and enrollment was dwindling, that I went to the School of Business. So I was director of undergraduate advising. There. Wanted to try something else, School of Communications. But every time I moved around, my heart was always in our Center for University Advising, our centralized advising office and working with pre health students. So this is where I've been for the last 20 years. And I've moved, you know, moved up the ranks here and now I supervise a team of pre health advisors within a team of this general advising office. So this is my true love, and I know, while it's you know, popular to twist institutions, Hofstra has given me every opportunity that I can think of now to teach to teach freshmen, I teach graduate students. I also now have developed a program for high school students who are interested in pre med, because seeing that I'm an orientation sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect as to what they think it is to go to college for pre med and what it really and what it's really like. So I want to try to get the students as young students, and open their eyes to different careers in health professions, and kind of guide them so they hit their strengths.

Brendan Caputo  14:54  
Wow, that sounds like you had a lot of experience. Mostly. Yep. Moving, moving out for a bit. Wow. So let's, let's take a look at what you do today, right? Or in the last what would you say 20 years? Wow. So for those that don't, let's just back up, maybe just a moment, for those that don't know, Hofstra University in general, what's the, what's the hallmark of Hofstra? Like, why?

Ellen Miller  15:24  
Well, funny, Brendan, because it's really changed. So when I started as a young professional, as a student, Hofstra was more known for its business, school and education. Since then, it's really, probably, in the last 15 years, become really a Mecca, I think, for healthcare on Long Island, we have a school of medicine, Physician Assistant Studies, nursing, cardiac perfusion, physical therapy, occupational therapy. So I've really seen a shift toward the health professions, towards stem bioengineering. So really a great place for students interested in pre health to go to school. When I started as a pre Health Advisor, we had 10 students a year apply to medical school. Is very small, not a lot of course offerings since the announced, just the announcement of our medical school with the again, the advent of just knowing we'll be affiliated with North Well, the population of students in our undergraduate science majors has tripled even, and again, so many resources. So, for example, in a couple of weeks, we are bringing our students to the structure lab and the medical school so we can, you know, be instructed on how to work on no but not that we're working on the donor bodies. But you know, instruction in that our Science and Innovation Center has a patient simulation lab that mimics an actual emergency department. So again, an amazing opportunities for our students in a complete shift from what we were known for, you know, a couple of decades ago to the shift now in health professions. So it's such an exciting time to be, you know, on this team, and, you know, helping these students with their opportunities. And I mentioned before, we have a centralized advising system. So we have a team, about 1718, advisors separated by teams. So I had the pre health team, there's a business team, a Liberal Arts team, School of Communications, etcetera. But we all, you know, certainly help all students all the time. But I like that you could be a specialist in one area, and then we have a dual advising system with faculty right? So a student walks into Hofstra, they were immediately assigned an advisor from our office and a faculty advisor once they declare a major. 

Brendan Caputo  17:55  
So what would you say is probably your favorite part of your role, you know you've mentioned over the last 20 years, health professions is expanding. You're managing a team. You're working with students, you're you're part of the big discussions. That's moving this, not just your university forward, but moving the profession forward. In terms of the information given to students or prospective students, what do you see as your current role in all of this. And what do you enjoy the most?

Ellen Miller  18:25  
Well, we're different than a lot of advising teams within an external to Hofstra, and that we have to also be up on career trends in the health professions. So I love that. You know that link between the academics and the careers and staying up on, on, basically, on current trends in the, you know, in the industry, so not only higher ed trends, but also in health care. But my favorite part of the job, I say is, is at orientation, seeing the students come in, all young, excited, have their whole four year experience ahead of them, but then also on the other end of graduation, right, seeing the growth from first year to senior, seeing them walk across the stage, and then, because I've been here so long, to see them develop then as professionals. So I had the experience a couple of years ago going to one of my students, who was an orthopedic surgeon. I had some issues, and him being able to help me as a patient, and how he treated me like I was a queen, introduced me to his office staff. It was just what a feeling to and with the advent of LinkedIn, right, we didn't have that 30 years ago, to see now where the students that you know, you've cared so much about during these four years where they've ended up, and how successful they've become. And that is a gift you know, that is a gift that no one can put in a paycheck right to, to have someone say, who's a successful surgeon who trained with, you know, the best of. Trauma surgeons that you're you're instrumental in their their growth and development to where they've been. It's, it's incredible feeling.

Brendan Caputo  20:06  
Yeah, and to know that you have built that from the ground up, right, not just for one class, seeing them through, but for through several classes, being a part of of staying up to date as to what's going on in the career. And as you mentioned in the intro when we were talking, it's about evolving. And I think a trend that I'm just getting listening from you is that there's, there seems to be this evolution of the university, but this evolution of selling as a professional and as a person. And so I think listeners will will appreciate that.

Ellen Miller  20:43  
Right and being able to withstand right changes in higher administration. So Brendan, you and I talked about that when you were here. So, right, being each administration also has its own culture, and being able to adapt to that sometimes that's, you know, a tough thing, particularly when you're entrenched in a university. But the Hofstra that I am at now is very different from the Hofstra I was at 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. So again, it's, it's being able to adapt and be resilient. And, you know, keep your eye on the most important thing is, you know, to serve the students.

Brendan Caputo  21:24  
And I think that's a good segue to something that I got to experience as someone that worked with you and worked for you and worked together with you, was that I found you to be an excellent manager for my needs. And, you know, you, one thing that you always instilled in your staff, from my perspective, was your ability to manage different types of leadership, albeit you are our leader in that area as part of the pre health team. So if I could ask, like, what's your How do you manage folks, and has that changed over time?

Ellen Miller  21:58  
So not really. So I, you know, I tend to be hands off. I learned from my previous mentor, Doctor Karen Spencer, who was head of this office for a long time. Basically, in higher ed, we don't make a lot of money, particularly at a private university, particularly in advising. So anything we can do to make the staff lives better easier, we can do right that doesn't cost a lot of money. So maybe you work overtime on a weekend, on an admissions event, to give comp time, to be flexible if there's a doctor appointment, if there's an opportunity to take a class, you know, even during working hours, you know, being flexible with, with using lunch hours and comp time, and really trying to to get the best out of out of the advisor, but making them grow, and again, encouraging them with professional development opportunities, because you want, if people are happy, right, they're going to be better with students, if people feel fulfilled, and then also, the more knowledge you gain, the better advisor that you're going to be. So again, encouraging professional development, even though some of this right is it doesn't involve extra compensation, but learning new skills and developing new talents down the road can pay off, not only for the employee, but also for the students in general. So I trust that people going into this profession have the students best interest at heart, and they're going to do whatever that they can and and in all the years, I've seen that the overwhelming majority of the people that I colleagues, I've had have done that and done that gracefully. So again, it's stressful. We spend a lot of time with people in our office. So we need to get along. We need to, you know, do fun things, right? We would sometimes go out as a group after orientation, celebrate milestones, graduations. So it's important also to have fun together and to trust the people you know. Trust people as professionals.

Brendan Caputo  24:16  
Yeah, and I think if, if someone's listening to this right now, and they're listening to the journey, and it seems like they're currently not in an academic advising role, but would like to break into that, and haven't quite found their break yet. Would you have any guidance as someone that has had multiple roles that has explored higher education? What would you say to that budding professional who's looking to make a shift over to academic advising?

Ellen Miller  24:42  
So definitely getting your foot in the door. So I had mentioned financial aid was not my favorite time again, but learned everything take away, even though it's not your perfect forever job, take away whatever skills you can in the. Apply to the next job. But I think if you particularly interested in working at a certain institution, getting your foot in the door is the most important thing. And again, being open to finding the good in the good in any position that you have, but then looking toward the next way to make it better, right? So let's say, if you wanted, I don't know, let's say if your next gig was going to be academic advising, certainly joining the Cata networking people LinkedIn. But my biggest advice, and again, I was the pre LinkedIn era, was networking and then getting your that initial foot in the door. It's easier to break into a university from the inside to a position that you want sometimes then externally.

Brendan Caputo  25:54  
Yeah, that's very that's actually excellent advice. I'm I'm I want to make sure that we have enough time to talk about some of the things we've talked about over the years that you're really passionate about. So if it's okay, let's shift gears to something that maybe folks don't know from you, just from if they did a typical Google search. I know you as someone that's very passionate about adult learners. You have talked about it and the importance of it, and I personally don't think that we hear enough about it. Can you share a little bit about why you have such an, you know, passion for adult learning, and you know where you stand on that today?

Ellen Miller  26:32  
Well, yes, so I feel almost vindicated now, right about learners because of the enrollment cliff that we're all been talking about in higher ed, right? But there's just less 18 year olds that were born back in 2008 so we need to, we need to tap into, you know, newer or more non traditional populations. I'm also fortunate to have developed our pre medical certificate program back in 1999 for students who want to go back and pursue a career in health professions. Prior to that, students came to Hofstra as a non matriculated student. They took classes haphazardly. We didn't know who they were. They didn't have guidance. So I created this program so to give it some structure and to give it, you know, some meat, basically, so we could find these students. So I just love hearing their journeys, because not everybody goes on a linear path, right? I can say that it took me seven years to earn my Bachelor's degree because a lot of time I had to just go part time in the evening, and I was fortunate to do that because I worked here or at a Delphi and I could do that. But not everyone has a linear path. Sometimes people aren't as lucky, and they take, you know, maybe they take a little time to figure out what they want. Maybe they've transferred several times, but to see students maybe who had a rocky start and then, you know, really hit their stride and do really well and find a career and an academic passion is the great thing. And I think it's because I had a non traditional experience and had to balance full time work with school. You know, I'm just particularly drawn to the students and being I was 50 when I got my doctorate, and a grandmother, you know, again, I believe also Lifelong Learning keeps you young and keeps you you know, really in touch what's going what's going on in the world. I think it's incredibly important, you know, to keep learning and growing.

Brendan Caputo  28:38  
That's a success. You are a success story. I mean, in just a while. Brendan, yes, but I think that's kind of, if I may reflect, I think that's kind of your point is that not everybody follows that follows that linear, that linear path. And I'm wondering now, you know, my follow up question on this is, then, what are colleges missing? Right? If your journey in education and going back for degrees and as a student, and then as an educator, you know somebody that guides other budding professionals and academic advisors, a two parter, what are colleges missing in the enrollment of non traditional learners? And what are colleges missing in terms of employing those that are more aware of that, that populations needs? I know it's a two parter.

Ellen Miller  29:30  
So, so the first part, you know, and I can talk about this, is again, and I know some of our the more traditional universities, right, fighting, sometimes fight against those distance learning options, but that's how people learn now, right? So making course times convenient to students, not as much to faculty, and I know I will blow back from that, but it, you know, it needs to be. When the students can go to school and not 11 o'clock, you know, or in the during the day, even our right? Some of our grad courses, Brendan we took for 425, in the afternoon, for working professionals, someone who works a nine to five job, right? You have to make special, special arrangements for that child care. Again, most child care that operate within a college close at 530 Well, if you have evening courses, you know that doesn't work. So again, looking or even like family housing, looking toward even those support services and those amenities that an adult student would you know, would need to have, having offices open later again, our and just speaking, our office right? Used to be open Monday through Thursday till 8pm now we are closed at five. So I recognize, and we could do a lot of this virtually, right? So, you know, schools can be more supportive of that adult learners needs, and the feedback I hear from students because I did my dissertation on this was a lot of younger students, traditional age students, get a lot of helpful advice, information, whatever you can, or just learning from the adult that's been out in the workplace for a number of years. So besides learning from their instructor, they're also learning from their older, more experienced classmates, so that mix of traditional, non traditional age students, and now I can say as being that older person also being in office and being in class with younger students. I'm learning from them, you know, particularly about technology and different trends. So again, that capitalizing on that, that mixed classroom experience, is great. But again, we need to be, we need to be a little bit more adult friendly, because, and again, while a lot of this can be done virtually, we're somehow not taking advantage of that. And then if you could remind me of the second question?

Brendan Caputo  32:10  
Absolutely, because that was a that was an awesome answer, I was thinking maybe the other side, right? So now let's pretend for a moment, we're the employer, we're the university, and we have to find folks that are keen to the need for that. What can universities do? What would be your your advice universities who were like, Okay, Ellen, we heard you. We want to have more adult learners. But how do we, how do we go about hiring the right people? Is there something that we should be looking for in folks coming into the academic advising, or student affairs or academic affairs profession?

Ellen Miller  32:47  
I can say, particularly in our office, we do a pretty good job of that. We have a lot of particularly women going back into the workforce of maybe been out for a while, raising children who now we are. We recognize the skills that they bring to the workplace and that they are, you know, we're giving them this, you know, opportunity, and they are doing a fantastic job of being able to connect with the students. So recognizing the value of maybe some, again, non traditional work experiences, seeing those transferable skills. Again, I think we do a good job of that. But again, yeah, it's the majority of people seeking these roles are fresh out of graduate school. You know, come from undergraduates graduate school, maybe from fresh out of even their undergraduate experiences. But if you don't have a lot of you know, as a traditional college, if you don't have a lot of those roles working with first generation or adult learners, maybe you don't attract those type of people. So I think, and something that we on a committee, a lifelong learning committee, actually, Hofstra has been recognized for their their contribution to lifelong learning through our continuing ed office, also through some of our other programs in School of Health, so working also with other universities, seeing what they do and how they promote adult learning again across their non credit and their credit divisions. Also mimicking some of our peer aspirants institutions, you know, some of the programs they do, but I do envision with, again, what's happening currently in enrollment trends of traditional age students that we just have to be going in that age, you know, going toward attracting more adult learners.

Brendan Caputo  34:42  
Sure, and kind of thinking a little bit differently, like you mentioned. And is the theme, I feel like of our conversation so far is that we need to adapt to new times, new trends, the new human experiencing education. And so you've mentioned it a few times now, and I'm hoping you can. Give your perspective on it. You're talking about this enrollment cliff. Can you explain to the listener who might Yes, yes, as aware, what is the enrollment Cliff from your research, from what you know and and what should we be aware of?

Ellen Miller  35:15  
So back in 2008 but the housing crisis, stock market crash, just less students, less people were having children. So now we see this right 18 years later, there's just less high school students to choose from. We're all trying. We're vying for the same pot of students, and there's just less of them. I also think, and again, not to be political with the in with the upcoming changes in federal student loans. That's also going to impact, particularly private universities with caps on student loans for Parent Plus loans, as well as for graduate school loans. So I think that that's going to have an impact as well. But again, the the biggest thing is there's just less 18 year old born, and probably maybe some students rethinking, like the traditional four year college route, because of some of these loan restrictions, and particularly also some parents right, because there is a cap on graduate professional loans, cap on Parent Plus loans. So I think that's going to have a huge impact as well.

Brendan Caputo  36:25  
What do you think that means for the next five to 10 years, for folks involved in our profession and for higher educators?

Ellen Miller  36:33  
Well, and then you throw an AI and you know, I'm always concerned that ChatGPT is going to take my job, though I don't, I don't think so. I don't think ChatGPT has this much patience as we all do, but I feel bad and again, going on my own personal bias, again, as a first generation student and as someone you know, like middle income, I'm concerned particularly how that's going to impact students who want to pursue a graduate or professional degree? Right? A cap of 20,000 a year. Tuition on some graduate programs is not enough, so I'm concerned that, and now we if we look at particularly in health professions, there's a cap on $50,000 a year. So for a lot of medical, dental, even physical therapy programs that cost more than that in tuition a year. So I'm concerned of the trickle down effect. People are not going to see health care providers that look like them or that are like them in the health profession. So I see that as a ripple effect a long time in the future, but immediately, it's going to cut a lot of people out of pursuing graduate and professional degrees, and that is a that's a big shame. So again, off my soapbox, but I it makes me very sad. You know that that's something that's happened because there's a lot of bright, promising people who maybe will be restricted because of how these changes will impact their ability to go to school and as advisors, right? We need to be sensitive to that. I know, I, you know, I work with with people over the years, and a lot of different have a lot of different backgrounds. So again, something that we also need to be sensitive to. I hear more and more students are stressing about money, stressing about even if they can get the loans, how they're going to pay them back, you know? So again, a lot of stress around finances.

Brendan Caputo  38:30  
Finances, yeah, and I think kind of a mini theme within our conversation has been, you've mentioned it, words like patience, things like the the individualistic approach, and so you did mention chat GPT, and for those that are listening, if you've listened to adventures in advising podcast, there have been a couple of interviews that Matt and his co host have done where they actually interview artificial intelligence, as you know, in my time, and it's really cool. You get to see the strengths and the weaknesses of artificial intelligence and what I'm hearing, and you can correct me if I'm wrong there, you cannot account for the human connection and the human ability to pivot. Would that be accurate?

Ellen Miller  39:13  
That yes, and like I said, sometimes the student just comes to you while they present. I'm struggling in, for example, organic chemistry. It's really bigger than that. It's bigger than that. My mother has breast cancer, or my father was in a car accident and lost his job. So it's, it's, it's a bigger thing. And you know, an AI bot, right? Cannot, cannot provide that support or their encouragement, you'll be in that cheerleader for the student.

Brendan Caputo  39:46  
Yeah, I personally agree with you, and I think it's an interesting take on it. And so, you know, again, let's pivot one more time, because I want to make sure that we get in your entire adventure and invest. Anything you spoke about when we were preparing to speak about this interview, you also spoke about teaching. So for folks that, again, are listening and they're like, Well, all I can do is just be an advisor, talk about how you you got you broke into teaching.

Ellen Miller  40:19  
So again, I always what stuck with me was orientation time, right, talking with the students, looking at their high school background, some kind of disconnect. I wanted to create a freshman seminar specifically for pre health students, because it's a little different than the general population. My goal always is and has been, to get the students eyes to be open to different majors and different professions, particularly, again, within health professions, see that's more out there. So again, being able to pitch a curriculum and being heard for a specific population, for me, was huge, right? So it's we had that university 101, I was able to tweak it, you know, make it my own, specifically for health students. You never know, unless you pitch something, right if it'll be accepted. So I was able to do that. I also have a certificate in substance abuse counseling. So randomly, I was teaching this pre health advising course, and randomly, our School of Health said, anybody out there can teach a substance abuse course. And I'm like, Well, I have a certificate. Let me try. Well, I've I've done that. That's wonderful. And then I thought, again, going with that themes, I want to get to the students younger and younger, so they're more prepared for college. Why not teach high schoolers like 10th, 11th graders, so they make the right choices when they take a piece right? How many of us have to be the bearer of bad news, so we're not taking your AP courses. Your dual enrollment credits aren't counting, but hey, great that you took them and paid but they're not counting here. So again, to educate the students, maybe at a level. And again, I am not minimizing the school counselor role, but we know how it will count right in our curriculum and colleges. So again, I propose this course to our continuing ed office, and now I teach it every semester, and I do a one week summer camp for students interested in pre health, again, devoted to high schoolers, again, to get their eyes open and to have them be prepared as possible for college. I'm also proposing now another course for students who don't do well on our math and science placement exams, again, just to shore up their academic skills, I'm certainly not teaching anybody chemistry, that is for sure, but I can teach them time management skills, study skills, how to speak with a professor, how to advocate for yourself, right? Those, those important student academic success skills. So again, I'm very fortunate, and probably why I've stayed so long as I get to do different things that I absolutely adore. Yeah, and be on different committees as well.

Brendan Caputo  43:24  
Yeah, and I think that's something that you encouraged me to do when I worked at Hofstra University. If, if you mentioned a lot of things in there, summer camp, teaching, building things, do you feel like you've gained traction because you've been in the field and at one institution for so long? Or would you say to someone who's listening now, who wants to institute some of the things that you spoke about, who maybe has only been in the field five or six years or so? Can they do what you're doing? Or does it seem like they should wait a little bit?

Ellen Miller  44:00  
So, you have to develop some street credits, as you know, the kids say, but certainly five or six years. But what you want to do is you want to identify so you you don't want to to bring it about as because you want to do it because it looks good on your resume. Obviously, you want to bring it about that you're solving a problem that they have, right? And this is where chat GPT is very helpful, at least creating, you know, some kind of a structure or a form, you know, a format in which to actually make that proposal. But if you can solve a problem, have a potential solution to a problem that they're experiencing. That's the way to frame it. So again, to do your homework, right? To see, let's say certain amount of students are getting, I don't know, a D in general, bio, right? How would you solve something like. Like that. Again, that's, you know, a rough example. But again, you're presenting a solution to a problem that they have, and you're going to and it's going to cost the least amount of money. That's it's a really lot of my problems don't cost anything except my blood, sweat and tears.

Brendan Caputo  45:17  
But, I mean, that's good advice, that's good guidance. So it kind of leads me to, I think, the last component of fully of our conversation, which really is success stories. So if I could impose to a two parter, take it as you wish. What would you say would be your greatest student success story? And what would you say your greatest staff, you know, collaboration, management, that sort of thing, the employee side success story would be because I think folks in this day and age are looking for hope, and you know that we can stay in this profession and persist, and we're going to make a difference. And I know you have, I'm just curious if you can share a story from the student perspective and the staff perspective?

Ellen Miller  46:05  
Great, great question. So I had a student again that I now it's been 10 years since she's left the university who I had her as an undergraduate and then a post bac student. But was not was immediate. Honestly, a mediocre student really didn't hit her stride till medical school. Nearly all her faculty when she told them, one to go to medical school, basically told her, that's not happening. It's not happening. Raising the sciences aren't great, not good. There would be many times she'd be crying in my office, and the faculty were quite dismissive of her. So we talked about it, you know, acknowledging she needed to do some additional work, and she did, and the work in her post bac program wasn't stellar. It was good, but then she ended up going to a Caribbean school that I suggested, and she took a prep program, a med prep program that actually taught her those skills that you need to be successful. Now, years later, graduated with honors from this medical school and is currently finishing up an MPH. She's got her medical degree, she'll be in the match process, and she said that I'm the only one that believed in her. So my takeaway always has been from my first year of advising that we are not God. We not we cannot tell the student they are not going to go down this path. We can only support them, give them, you know, our realistic expectations and some data, but our job is to support them and not to, as I have written down here, be the dream Crusher, right, to give them options, parallel plans. But this was an incredible success, because half the time I wasn't even sure that she'd be successful. But I recognize, like I recognized in you, something intuitively, that grit, that passion, whatever you want to call it, that she would be successful. Staff wise, you know, so while I'm very, very sad when people leave to see, for example, you have, you've ended up, you're, you're a doctor, you're in a an incredible role at Liu. We, I had some leave just last week to go to another institution as assistant director of of pre health. But many students, even student people that I have worked at the University, who I had as students. Now they're higher than me, but that's okay. But to see them be successful, you know, is a wonderful thing. And again, that can't be captured in a paycheck or a title, yeah?

Brendan Caputo  48:55  
And I think it's a testament to you practice what you preach, right? So it sounds like you're always encouraging others, whether it's a student or staff, and then if the opportunity is right and you've given them the tools that they need to succeed, you're it seems like you're reflecting. Then they take that opportunity, they take that advantage, they use that motivation. So you're describing what I think a lot of young professionals and mid level professionals are starting to get wind up that we need to be in the profession for the right reason, because we're here to serve students. That's why education...

Ellen Miller  49:32  
And again, sometimes that's daunting. And I know I chose this profession because I want to deal just with the students and not with the parents, because I'm interested in helping them make them transition to adulthood and being independent. So again, you know, I've been blessed. I always say, you know, if this is like the end of my career and I was hit by a bus tomorrow, I. I am fine with how things have gone, and I know a lot of people like, Well, why didn't you have doctorate, particularly my husband? Why didn't you want to go higher? Why didn't you because I, at the core of my being is the one on one work with the student is what most important to me.

Brendan Caputo  50:17  
And maybe this is redundant. This is my last question for you. If, if there was an Ellen Miller legacy, then you can summarize it in Ellen Miller, the Ellen Miller legacy that you have left on life and on higher education and academic advising. Can you sum that up?

Ellen Miller  50:36  
Yes. So my, my wish for for everyone would be to be satisfied right, with your academic journey, reach your your career potential, whatever it might be, and to be happy every day and going to work, yeah, some days are going to suck, right? Some days are going to be great. But to truly, I'm hoping that I can help students and staff find what they're truly passionate about and love to do, because, like that old adage go, you know, if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. And that's how I feel during registration time. I can't say that I feel that all the time, but that would be to to to feel really fulfilled and satisfied, would would be my my ultimate goal for everyone.

Brendan Caputo  51:27  
And I think listeners will will get a sense of your journey, having listened over our time together and answering all of my questions on providing your input and getting a sense for maybe their path. And maybe they heard something today that could inspire them and motivate them to either continue in the path and academic advising or in higher education, or to want to become motivated to join for the first time. So Ellen, I could talk to you for days and listen to you for days, because you're amazing. But I think this is unless we missed something, unless you want to add something. I just want to thank you for joining adventures in advising podcast, and I hope that our listeners got a lot out of it today.

Ellen Miller  52:11  
And yes, thank you again. Brendan, so much for having me. Anybody wants to reach out? I am on LinkedIn. I am easy to find. Ellen Miller, added by Ellen C Miller, because there is, I say, the real doctor, Ellen Miller's in med school. But Ellen C Miller, LinkedIn, and I appreciate you so much. Brendan, I'm so proud of you. It's been a pleasure.

Brendan Caputo  52:33  
Thank you. Ellen. Appreciate you.