Discovering the Holy Land: A Guided Tour of Israel's Sacred Sites w/ Dr. Charlie Dyer

Would you like to experience Israel without ever leaving home?

How many times have you read the Bible and simply wondered:

What does it look like today? What history does it still hold from when Jesus walked the same terrain?  What is the landscape like? Or, what are the people like?  But, you’re just unable to travel there yourself. Well, our guest today, Dr. Charlie Dyer, author of the book, Experiencing the Land of the Book: A Life-Changing Journey Through Israel has taken many trips to Israel over the years and is very familiar with the sights, sounds, customs, and emotional ties to the Holy Land. If you’ve never had the opportunity to travel to Israel, or if you have visited, but want to relive the experience, you’ll enjoy hearing from Dr. Dyer today!

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Transcript

Mentor Mama 

Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast for those that may be listening for the first time, our podcast is an offshoot from our main platform, YouTube. Our channel is called Coffee and Bible Time where our goal is to help people delight in God's word and thrive in Christian living. We also have a website and storefront with Bible studies, prayer journals, courses and more, you can find out more information at coffeeandbibletime.com. Well, I’m Mentor Mama and today we are going to be talking about how to experience Israel without ever leaving home. Imagine that how many times have you read the Bible and simply wondered, what does it look like today, or what history does it still hold from when Jesus walked that very same terrain. Or maybe what's the landscape like? Or what are the people like there, but you're just not able to travel to Israel yourself? Well, our guest today, Dr. Charlie Dyer, author of the book, “Experiencing the Land of the Book: A Life Changing Journey through Israel,” has taken many trips to Israel over the years and is very familiar with the sights, sounds, customs, and emotional ties to the Holy Land. If you've never had the opportunity to travel to Israel, or if you have visited but want to relive the experience, you'll enjoy hearing from Dr. Dyer today. Dr. Charlie Dyer served for 33 years on the faculty and in the administration of three different institutions, including twenty years at Dallas Seminary and 10 years as Provost of the Moody Bible Institute. In 2010, Charlie became professor at large of Bible for Moody Bible Institute and host of the Land and the Book Radio Program, which is heard on more than 350 stations across the United States. For much of his time in Ministry, Charlie has taken groups to Israel and the other lands of the Bible. Over the past four decades, he has traveled to Israel nearly 100 times, helping several 1000 people experience firsthand the life changing impact that comes from spending time in the land of the Bible. In addition to his own speaking, teaching and guiding, Charlie has authored or co-authored numerous books. He's also contributed to the Bible Knowledge Commentary, Nelson's Old Testament Survey, and the Moody Bible Commentary. Charlie and his wife Kathy live near Phoenix, AZ. They have two grown children and four grandchildren. Please welcome Dr. Charlie Dyer. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

It is great being with you. 

Mentor Mama 

I am so excited to talk to you today because I must admit, a visit to the Holy Land truly is a dream of mine, and I am hoping to go there one day, but I'm so excited for your book. For those of us that haven't been able to go there yet, we can actually read this book and feel like we're there. So you've been taking groups to Israel for 40 years. Tell us about the changes that you've seen during that time. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Oh man, and there have been a lot of changes over that time. On the positive side, tourism has grown, it's matured in Israel. There was a time when our first tours, they would literally pull up to an area and they say, well, it's time for a restroom break. Women to the left, men to the right and that is no longer the case. I said Israel got better when they got Diet Coke and the roads are better, it's easier to get around, the sites are better, they've made them more accessible for people. Now, on the negative, it's getting more crowded. Back when I was first going there, maybe a few 100,000 a year coming to Israel this year, it's over 4,000,000 that will be visiting the Holy Land and it's just more difficult to even schedule tours. Hotel space is at a premium. So, the good news is people are going to Israel. The bad news is people are going to Israel. 

Mentor Mama 

I guess it's a good conundrum to have, right? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, if you want Israel to be blessed and the people over there be blessed, it's a good thing for them. 

Mentor Mama 

Well, a lot of people might be afraid of traveling to Israel in the Middle East. What's your experience been in terms of safety and security? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, I just got back from Israel about a week ago, so the current time, you know, there's a lot in the news on the difficulties there. But in reality, it's not affecting tourists, at least the tourist groups that are going to biblical sites, so I've been affect my very first trip. A war broke out while I was there. I came home and read about it and what I saw and what I read were two different things. What we read in the news is, you know, if it bleeds it leads, is the old statement and so much of Israel is totally safe, especially the tourists oriented sites. The Jewish people in the area. People may have troubles with one another, but they both enjoy your money and they're happy to have you as a tourist and in fact they they roll out the red carpet. So, we have found no major problems throughout 40 years of travel there, several wars and everything else. I tell people from the time you sign up until the time you go, they'll probably be at least two wars or something that happens, but just trust God, it's amazing. The most dangerous part of going to Israel is driving from your home to the nearest airport, but once you've done that statistically most of the dangers passed. 

Mentor Mama 

Wow, that's really wonderful to hear. Well, let's jump into your book. Experiencing the Land of the Book. So tell us, who did you write this book for? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, actually, three groups. The first group are as you described in the introduction, people who've never been to Israel who'd like to go but who haven't been able to so far. And then the second group are those who would like to go, but they're just never going to be able to make it. Finances, family issues. But I wanted people to understand what it's like and so I actually wrote this as a tool. Tour so they can go day by day and visit the sites that we put all the pictures in because I wanted people to visually see what it's like. Then the third group would be people who've been to Israel, but being there the first time you feel like you're under Niagara Falls, you have a teacup in hand and you're drinking like crazy, but it's all rushing past and they that group. They loved it. They want to go back now. They're not sure if they can afford to or not, but the book helps them remember. Kind of put the pieces in place for the time that they spent in Israel, so whether they've been or never been, the books for them. 

Mentor Mama 

Oh, I love that. I imagine for people who know their Bible well, the experience of the land really makes it come to life. And maybe those perhaps. I'm sure you have people on the tour that maybe have just started learning about their Bibles, right? I have to believe after coming back, they're just going to want to dig into so many passages that you cover is that the case? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

It's a circle is the way I describe it. The If you've never been to Israel and just starting the Bible, it does it. What's your appetite? And you say, oh, I wish I had have read about this before I got here. But for those  who've read the Bible their whole lives and get to Israel, they are the ones who are saying I wish I'd come before it makes so much more sense now us. And it really is a circle. The more I found, the more I go. I always learn something new about the Bible and it helps me understand it more. And the more I understand about the Bible, the more I appreciate what I'm seeing when I'm there so it's a continuous circle. It's the equivalent of eating a potato chip. You know, once you've eaten one potato chip, you want more, and you study the Bible. You want to see Israel, you see Israel. You want to study the Bible. 

Mentor Mama 

Ah, that's so fascinating. Well, your book is actually referred to as a travel log through Israel, which takes people on a journey of the sites visited by tourists. But I think what's so fascinating is that along the way you share humorous experiences from past trip. Including as you put it, the baptism of a lady in purple underwear. So, tell us about that. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, the baptismal site, it's a wonderful site and it's so typical Israel. It's a beautiful Christian baptismal site run by a Jewish kibbutz. So and they provide the baptismal certificates, changing rooms and baptismal robes. But the robes are made out of a very thin cotton kind of a like a sheet, and it turns translucent in water, so I've always told people, you know, just bring along your bathing suit or a pair of shorts and a T-shirt or something to wear underneath. And the one time I just mentioned it and assumed everybody would remember, one lady forgot, but she wanted to be baptized and said Ohh he's just exaggerating and so she went into the baptism when she came up the gown turned translucent and that day she had chosen to wear her purple underwear. But it got worse because the fellow doing the baptizing kind of lost control of her and she started floating downstream. So it's you're watching this slow-motion barge kind of moving down from our baptismal site to one of the other baptismal sites. She laughed at the end of it all. But it's funny as I tell that story now every time. I've never had anybody forget to bring along their bathing suit or their shorts and T-shirt as a result. 

Mentor Mama 

Quite certain of that. Wow, that must have been a sight! Of all the places that you've been to Dr. Dyer and that you write about tell us about what's your favorite and why? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Yeah, it will take people by surprise because you think the Sea of Galilee or Jerusalem. So my favorite place is the Judean wilderness. I love it for so many reasons. One, it's never changed. You can stand in the Judean wilderness today, and it's unlike anything anybody ever imagined. You know, from the Pacific Northwest, people think of, you know, mountains with fir trees on them and other people think of the Sahara desert. But it's totally different than any of that, but it's amazing. You stand there and say this is what it looked like when Abraham was here or when Jesus was here when David fled from Saul, he fled through the wilderness. The wilderness was always the place of testing, and it was always the place where God showed himself sufficient. And so, you stand in the wilderness and for me, I just look at it and I can trace the entire Bible in that one spot. Now the other reason I like it though. Our very first trip back when I was younger and more nimble and we did a student trip. When we walked the Judean wilderness from Jerusalem to Jericho. It was the hardest trip I've ever done. I ran out of water halfway down. It was tough. But as a result I recognized what it was like to be in the wilderness to depend on God to read about the Israelites complaining in the wilderness and suddenly realize if I'd have been there, I'd have been complaining. So, it was a visceral experience for me, but every time I go, I love it and even things like that. Well, we're just there about 3 weeks ago and the flowers were out. I'm heading again in another month and but when I get there I'm going to be telling people there were flowers here when I was here before. But because the wind blew and the flowers have died, they've disappeared. And even passages like Isaiah 40 come right from that place in the wilderness. 

Mentor Mama 

Ohh wow, that's crazy and I think I just read that today. Well, I guess I read 41 today. It's so it's incredible to think about. I think about two like Elijah thing just his how he had to rely on the birds to bring him. Well, you know you have done just a marvelous job of helping the reader feel like they are actually on this tour with you. By all sharing some of your real-life encounters. With the people there. Can you tell us about the Oxford shirt, Shepherd and Donkey man? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

I'll do it in reverse order. In fact, a donkey man is one. I call him one of the cast of characters on the Mount of Olives. You just run into all sorts of people, and this fellow was dressed in traditional Arab garb. He has a little donkey with him and he just puts on a show. It's the best way to describe it. He's so approachable and enjoyable. Now if you go over and have your picture taken, he does want a dollar or two as a result, but it's worth it and he's just one of the cast of characters, I say that makes it fun. You didn't expect it and you find you love it now. The Oxford Shirt Shepherd is a different one. My co-host and I were over in Israel we were doing some audio for Christmas and Easter specials and I contacted a friend who has a store in Bethlehem. I said, hey, is there any way you could get us in connection with the Shepherd. Sure. No. Well, we get there and he hadn't done it, but he says. But don't worry, I'll make it work. And so he called us and said it's all set. He took us out and it's just showing up over the hill. There's this shepherd in his traditional Arab garb, a few sheep and goats with him and they even bleet on cue. You know, we got all the audio that we needed, tried to talk to him, but he can't speak English. But as we are thanking him, getting ready to leave, I noticed under his traditional Arab Guard he had this powder blue Oxford button down shirt on and you're thinking OK, so is he a real shepherd or did my friend say, hey, Frank, can you help me out here? I need these guys. You know, just put on that garb, get your neighbors sheep and show up and they'll never know the difference? But that's how Israel is. It's just you never know what's around the next corner or. Over the next hill. 

Mentor Mama 

Ohh my goodness, that's hilarious. Well, it's interesting because most books on touring the Holy Lands sites are usually in alphabetical order, but you chose to arrange them geographically. So what exactly were you trying to accomplish with this arrangement? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Yeah, I actually started writing this book when COVID hit. My wife and I were in our room with our suitcases packed to be picked up at the airport, taken to Israel when Israel closed down. And so, for well for a year and a half, we lost about 5 or 6 trips to Israel. Well, rather than getting upset, I decided I want to write about the trips and what I found was when things were in an alphabetical order, you know, you have suddenly azaka next to you know, Abel Beth. Con they're they people have no clue where they are or how. They fit together. So, I decided I'm going to write this as if I'm on a trip, and so I. I sat down and literally. Wrote a trip through Israel and part of the reason that that is so good is you, you suddenly realize that Cecearia is only 6 miles from Mount Carmel. And so I can it can help tell about the difference in the distances and then little stories that are told in one place can build on the next place that you're going. So I really wanted to help people just understand viscerally and experientially what it's like to travel to these spots. So we flipped from Old to New Testament and from A-Z. You will in in sites, but in doing so I wanted people to feel like I'm really on a trip to Israel going to these sites in the order in which I would visit them when I went there. 

Mentor Mama 

And that's really how you feel when you read the book. Do you think that The Chosen series has also like peaked people's interest about wanting to go to the Holy Land? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

It has, in fact, I'll tell you two stories because this last trip we were on the we had a couple with us. Their son is one of the writers for show The Chosen. So we were talking about it and in fact he he just wrote to me and. Said that, next week I could, if I could. So they could. They're going to be at the site where they're doing the filming right now for the next season. And you know, if I, I couldn't make it over there. But I thought, what a nice invitation. So I think it is peaking people's interest because it's telling the story well. It's I call preaching the white space. They're, you know, they're it's creative fiction in a good sense. But they're helping people understand that it wasn't just cardboard cut out figures, you know, on a flannel board moving across the land, it was real people. Now my problem and I love the series, but my problem is when they're at the Sea of Galilee, I'm looking at it going but that's not the Sea of Galilee. I know too much and it hurts me and that's that's a shame because it's a well-done series that's telling the story in a terrific way. And I do think raising people's interests about, about seeing the land and traveling to the land. 

Mentor Mama 

Well, kind of what you just said there about the Sea Galilee. I'm sure that you find that when you get to Israel, a lot of the actual locations, perhaps for biblical events are debated. Like the site for the upper room or Jesus crucifixion and burial, how do you deal with that thing that happens in your book and when you're talking to people on the tour? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, on the tour and this is the part I love, it's amazing how many places you know we'll be able to say, you know, it's this spot or somewhere in this area it happened and we can be pretty certain about it. But there are places, and the Upper Room is one example that two places for the crucifixion or another. And the way I found at least that I handle it. That works well for me is I put on my professorial. That, and I'll say, well, now here's some reasons for this and some. Hold this and. I'll try and explain why I think one might be a better option than the other based on the evidence. But the other thing that I have found and it really came from Mark Twain reading his the innocence abroad. But Mark Twain used. And as and what I found is, it really does help sometimes to say, well, it might be here, it might be there, but really let's look at both spots and what can we find that can help us in finding something humorous connected with the spots does help put it in the right perspective and cement it in our minds. And like I got in trouble a little bit writing about the Upper Room because I have the traditional upper room which is in the right part of town. That I say to people. And then we have the alternative upper. Which it it's you. When you go downstairs to get to the upper room, it just loses something in my mind. But I tell the story, but I've had some people say, well, you were a little bit, you know, flippant about that, weren't you? But it just helps otherwise people can get bent. The shape or angry even if you know it. If it doesn't meet their expectations. So humor really does help, especially when dealing with the alternatives. 

Mentor Mama 

I found it interesting. One of your stories I was reading in the book about the swine going over the edge and just the debate that you had. Could you tell us that little story quickly about someone who thought the different location? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Ohh I can't and the and he still disagrees that most people have the event taking place at the southeastern end of the Sea of Galilee, but there's no steep bank leading into the sea. And there is a about halfway up. So I was arguing with this fellow and he finally said it was a student group. He said, OK, well, let's I'll take you there. So, we stopped the bus and we started these students. On an impromptu hike, and then he got lost. And instead of finding the steep bank, he was looking for, we ended up coming on an ostrich farm. Of course, I wouldn't let him forget it. You only have the wrong place. You have the wrong animals and I became merciless at that point in pointing it out to him. But yeah, he still won't change his position, but he also won't go with me on. 

Mentor Mama 

Oh, boy, that was that was really funny. Well, your book is so beautiful in that it has over 250 color photographs again that make you feel like you're there. It includes maps. Tell us why you put such an emphasis on the visuals and where you got them. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, where I got to, I have about 35,000 pictures and and a couple 1000 videos that I've taken while I've been in Israel. I'm always looking for the perfect shot and I've never found it. So every time I go I'm still taking thousands of pictures. So virtually all with about two or three exceptions. The pictures are all mine. The maps I got from Google Earth because they're very accurate and I wanted people to see where places are and how they relate to one another. In fact, even on a tour I take a map of Israel and I mark every day where we're going to go and what we're seeing, because otherwise I found people sit on the bus. They don't have a clue where they are. They get off, they look at something, saying it's unforgettable. They get on the bus, go somewhere else and by day three they're going. I have no idea where I was. Where am I? And so helping us put things in the right spot on maps helps and that's why I wanted the maps in. And I just wanted as many visuals as possible because I tell you it's a sight seeing trip. And so you got to see the sights and the best way to do it in a book form is to put as many pictures as you can. 

Mentor Mama 

And they are. They're just so enlightening. Well, you have as you've gone on these trips, I'm sure that you have seen people change by actually going on the tour to Israel. How do you expect sort of a similar impact from the book? What are what emotional impact? Do you see? Fee from the travellers. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

I'm hoping. Yeah. Well, well, I'm hoping that when somebody it won't be quite to the same extent. There's, we always say it's, you know, you 10% of what you hear, 50% of what you hear and see you remember. And 90% of what you hear see and do and that a trip is really an immersive experience, but this is as close to immersive as I could get. And so, I'm hoping somebody will going there really are real places. These events really happened. I can trust the Bible and even if I had trouble visualizing before, I can now visualize some of these places and put that into my mind as I'm reading through the biblical text. I also hope that in some cases, some people who've been afraid, or whatever's been holding them back. But at some point they go, you know, maybe God does want me to go to Israel. I'm going to pray and say, Lord, open the door if you want me to go and they'll just walk by Faith through that door because when they do go to Israel, it will make the book pale in comparison, because they'll actually have their the shoe leather on the. Found that tells their feet what it was like. They'll have a deeper appreciation for Jesus and the disciples walking places just by having been there. 

Mentor Mama 

Yes, yes, absolutely. And what I loved is I was going through it knowing that hopefully someday I'll get there. But I love how you give us the Scripture references so that if you want to be more fully prepared that you can. Sort of research those before you go, and I think it probably add that much more to your. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Trip absolutely the more preparation people put into a trip, the more they're going to get out of the trip, and I say the vacations, you know, they're for sitting on the beach and relaxing and. Central trip isn't a vacation, it's an investment, and it's an investment in your understanding of God and his word that's going to last a lifetime and you want to put it everything into that investment that you can because it will all pay dividends. 

Mentor Mama 

Yes. Uh, absolutely. Well, as we start to wrap things up here, tell us why you think people should get the book and go on a tour. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, I left my wife would say you need to do it because it's our retirement fund. But seriously, I think if somebody saying I don't understand the Israeli I do have. Struggles when I read the Bible, I skip over people names and play. These names, the book can help them put places in perspective and I think give them some dimension to people in the Bible so that they won't skip over those and they'll gain more insight into the word of God. I think ultimately if they're ever thinking possibly going to Israel, it will help them prepare better. So again, it's the best use of their time because it is an event that that pays dividends for the rest of their life. 

Mentor Mama 

Well, are you holding tours that people can find out about to you or where can they find out more information about you and the book and perhaps even the tours? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, probably the if anybody's ever interested in the tour, the easiest way is to just contact me at the land and the book radio program. If they go to The Land and the Book at moody.edu. And just write in and say. Do you have any tours or what's coming up? I can let them know about anything I'm doing in the future that might have space available. And then otherwise, I think if they read through the book, they could if they if they contact me, I can even put them in contact with the tour operator who has other tours going as well that I might not be part of but are also good tours. 

Speaker 

OK. 

Mentor Mama 

And people can we will have the link to your book and certainly people will be able to go check that out. I strongly encourage those of you that are listening. It's such an incredible experience. Even just the book, as I I'm sure. Like you've said it, it only builds from there. Well, before we go Doctor Dyer, I would like to ask you some of our favorite Bible study tool questions. What Bible is your go to Bible? And I'm sure you have a whole shelf full. But which one is your go to? And what translation is it? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Well, in fact I have it right beside me and it's it's it's beat up, it's the NIV study Bible, but the cover looks totally different because I wore out the first cover and now this one's falling apart but I love the notes in the Bible and I it just it worked well for me and when I was teaching most students had that. Now at the same time I'm I am breaking in a new Bible. I have it. It’s a NAS. I love that translation as well. I'm trying to get used to using that one as well, but the but the NIV has been the one I've used for years. 

Mentor Mama 

Yeah, OK, I've yeah, I've used that one as well. Well, do you have any favorite journaling supplies or anything that you like to use to enhance your Bible study time? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

If if I showed you inside my Bible, you would just shake your head. I'm I'm a a sharpie guy. I underline mark my Bibles look almost unreadable at times and then I like color. So you know those those gel markers. I get into. A kick where I have all the different color gel markers and I'll just try and. Reading a passage. The book, and you know, I'll say I want to use faith and this time I'm going to use yellow for faith or I'm going to, you know, find something else. It's just, and I wish I could say I was. I'm nice and disciplined and I have the same. I don't, but I use those and and it's just really helped me over the years. So my Bible definitely looks colorful and marked up. And those are the two things I. 

Mentor Mama 

OK, those are great tips. Lastly, what is your favorite app or website for Bible study tools? 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

I'm probably in an odd category, but Logos is my favorite app. I have a lot of books on there and it's nice to be able to go to a passage and just say what commentaries, what information do I have and have it all show up? The other one I really do like is called accordance. I can put up four or 5 Bible translations. I just you know it comes up with the new American Standard 1st and I'll put the NIV and the ESV and the Greek or the Hebrew and it can put them all in columns. And when I click on the one word it'll show me what the word is in in all the others it. It's a definite way to go back and forth between them and for the way I study it works really well. 

Mentor Mama 

That sounds amazing. OK. Another great tip from Doctor Dyer. Well, thank you so much for being with us here today to provide us with some insight into what an experience in Israel would be like and just how it connects us closer to God and just feeling like we were there back when Jesus was there as well, so. It's such a blessing to have had you share your experience with us. 

Dr. Charlie Dyer 

Ohh, thank you. It's just been great. Being with you. 

Mentor Mama 

Thank you. Lastly, head over to the coffee and Bible time website for our prayer journals that will help guide and document your prayer life at coffeeandbibletime.com. We will have all the links that we talked about in our show notes today. We want to thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. We love you all. Have a blessed day.