When Worship Feels Empty: How to Hold Onto Faith | Andrew Osenga

What if staying with Jesus isn’t about feeling more—but remembering better? 

Worship leader, songwriter, and Christian music producer Andrew Osenga shares his story of staying with Jesus through seasons of disillusionment, church hurt, and spiritual burnout. When faith felt thin and friends were leaving the church, Andrew discovered something unexpected: hymns, liturgy, and written prayers that carried his faith when feelings and words ran out.

If you’ve ever:

• Loved Jesus but struggled with church
• Felt burned out, distracted, or spiritually numb
• Sat down to pray and didn’t know what to say
• Wondered how to stay with Jesus for the long haul

this conversation is for you.

Check out Andrew's book, How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to an Authentic Faith!

Resources mentioned:

• The Daily Office
• Drive Thru History: The Gospels | Acts to Revelation | Ends of the Earth
• The Daily Liturgy Podcast

Andrew's favorite Bible study tools:

CSB Bible (small) | CSB Bible (unmarked) | YouVersion | BibleGateway

About Andrew Osenga:
Website | Substack | The Pivot Podcast

Join our community! If you are a Christian woman seeking to know God deeper, study Scriptures, pray with and for others, strengthen your faith, and support other in doing the same, this is the place for you. 

Transcript

Ellen Krause: Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. I'm Ellen, your host, and I'm so glad that you have joined us today. 

What if the greatest challenge to our faith right now isn't doubt, but forgetfulness? Scripture tells us again and again to remember: remember who God is, what He has done, and who He says that we are.

But in a world where attention is a commodity, turning to God in worship and prayer can feel like it costs more than we have to give. Well, today's conversation will explore how we can strengthen our spiritual roots through time-tested practices that have always pointed believers back to Scripture, prayer, and the presence of God.

It's about prayer when you don't have words, faith that makes room for doubt and grief, and practices that form us instead of asking us to perform. Our guest today is Andrew Osenga, a songwriter, musician, record producer, and the leader of Anchor Hymns. Andrew has collaborated with artists like Steven Curtis Chapman, Andrew Peterson, Sandra McCracken, Jars of Clay, and more.

He is here today to help us rediscover the vibrancy of our faith through the prayers, practices, and wisdom of faithful believers who came before us. So if you've ever sat down to pray or stood up to worship and felt at a loss, this episode is for you. 

Andrew, welcome to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast!

Andrew Osenga: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really glad to be here.

Ellen Krause: Well, I'm so excited to have you with us. I read that you grew up in a cornfield in Illinois. And as someone who survived college in the cornfields of Illinois myself, I feel this strange kinship. So where's your cornfield?

Andrew Osenga:  [laughs] No way! Where did you go? 

Ellen Krause: I was in the Champaign-Urbana cornfield.

Andrew Osenga: I figured you were. Yes, my dad and brother went there. I'm from Normal, Illinois. So I grew up in the town, but my church was in a cornfield and surrounded on all four sides by corn. So yeah, still is. We were there over Christmas. Corn everywhere.

Ellen Krause: Oh my, well, Andrew, as we jump into this, why do you think so many Christians are feeling restless or burned out in their faith right now?

Andrew Osenga: That is a good question. I mean, I think we feel restless and burned out in general.

 Just because we are not built for the pace of this world, moving at a speed that is just not natural. We are not meant to be pinged with notifications every 35 seconds and lights on at 11:30 p.m.

And all these just sort of unnatural things that daily interrupt sort of the way our bodies are built in general. Then we try to add our faith into this, right? And so we try to be present to what the Lord is doing.

But we live in this world where everything is sort of bought and sold, right? Everything is marketed to you. We just talked about a cornfield, but you and I probably don't get our food straight from a field. We go to a store and our food has labels on it. It's been sold to us. Everything that we touch comes through a marketing department, including our books, our music, conferences. 

You know, everything has a marketing department and a brand and a font. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it adds a layer of complication because we know intrinsically that there's a market involved in a lot of our interaction, some of the spiritual communication that we. And I think that's why a lot of people are starting to get more, more curious about writings and hymns and liturgies and different things that have come before us, things that existed before the age of commerce. 

And there's nothing wrong with what's being made now for the most part, and there's nothing necessarily better about what was before sometimes. But I think there just is a sense that we can trust what comes before because of that.

Ellen Krause:  Yes, that really focuses in on this idea of remembering. As someone, Andrew, who's helped create worship experiences like you have, what tensions have you personally felt between art and this commerce that you're talking about and discipleship?

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, you know, all this has been a very personal struggle for me. I live in a world where my friends and I create the music that a lot of churches sing. And I've been a part of a lot of the songs that get sung on Sunday mornings all around the world. And that's a real huge honor. 

You know, I've gotten to stand in the back of a room and heard thousands of people sing a song that...I got to watch that song be born, and that's an amazing gift. It's so incredible. And all the things I just talked about, like the marketing department helped make that happen. And there's some really beautiful things about that. And all those people that are involved in that, those are my friends. And I know how much they care about that stuff. And it's really beautiful when that happens. 

And at the same time, you do struggle with it, right? Because you know the compromises that happen, and you know the songs that didn't make it, and you know the politics that happen, and you know all the different things that happen just because of human nature. And you wrestle with your own sense of, did I make this decision because it was the right decision or because I wanted it to be popular?

You end up really having to ask those questions of yourself all the time. Sometimes a song doesn't connect the way you think it should, you can start to doubt yourself. Was I doing the right thing? Is this what God called me to do? Was I being obedient? Or if a song does do really well, then you can say, maybe I'm doing great, what God called me to do, and maybe it wasn't. It can give us maybe a distorted sense of what we're supposed to do. And that's a challenge, because what is popular and what is making money doesn't always equate to what we're called to do and what is obedience and what is discipline and what it means to love one another and serve one another. And we have to grow in how to do our own as believers in the midst of this world of commerce and art. And that's a challenge.

Ellen Krause: Mm-hmm, most definitely. Well, Andrew, you have such an interesting story about how you went on the road so young and in all of the different denominations that you were exposed to through traveling doing worship. Tell us how that background impacted you writing this series of short essays about forgotten songs, prayers, and practices.

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, so I started traveling around the country when I was 19 years old. All my friends were in college and they were taking, you know, World Religions 101, and I was playing concerts with a Baptist church on Wednesday night and a Presbyterian church on Thursday night and the Methodists on Friday, just getting to meet all these different kinds of believers.

And I'd grown up in a really fundamentalist church, and I knew very little. I just thought everybody believed the same thing that I did. And all of a sudden I was getting exposed to all these people who had sort of wildly different experiences of the Christian faith. And some were really charismatic, some were very quiet, some were very liberal, some were very conservative. And some of them terrified me, some of them I felt really safe at home.

I didn't understand the difference between any of them. And sometimes they would assume that I was the same as them. They would ask me to lead them in the doxology, and I had no idea what they were talking about. Some people would start talking in tongues and look at me like, why aren't you speaking in tongues? I'm like, these people are crazy, what's happening?

I was so young. I was just sort of taking this all in. It was wild. But what was awesome is I also was making friends with people all around the church in all these different places. I was getting to see the way they were caring for their neighbors, that they were starting food banks and they were packing backpacks for kids and they were doing all sorts of ministries, and they were praying for their neighbors and they were just loving people all around the country and all around the world, sending missionaries. 

You know, sometimes you see in headlines that people could demonize other people, or you might hear one leader say like, you know, this is the way and these other people are wrong. And I could hear that and say, well, yeah, but I know those people and I know that they love Jesus and I see the way they are caring for their neighbor and loving the poor and serving these people. 

It just really opened my eyes to how big the kingdom of God is and how much that there is that maybe we don't know and how there are these things that are central to our faith—Christ has died, Christ is risen, and Christ will come again. And there are these core things that we follow Him and we love Him and we serve Him, and through that we care for others. Then there are these other things that set our denominations apart, and they matter. And they are worth discussing, and they are definitely important. 

But they just, to me, mean that we live in different neighborhoods, but we can still be brothers and sisters. And that was a really great thing to learn. And especially as I started to get into songs and songwriting and to help people shape songs for their own congregations, to learn the songs of the Presbyterians and learn the songs of the Baptists and learn the songs of the Charismatics and the Catholics, and to know how different they are and how we can learn from one another, because they each do kind of bring something different to the table. And it's been so fun to have all these different kinds of friendships and see all the different things that they bring.

So I'm so grateful for that experience. I wish everybody could have an experience like that. I've just been so shaped by it, and it has been such a huge gift to me in my life.

Ellen Krause: I can totally see that, Andrew. I think that is just so cool. It's almost like, you know, you have the higher-up view of seeing, like you said, the core being Jesus and then different ways people live that out in the different denominations. And for you to be able to have that experience, I think is—obviously has been so enlightening and something that probably the majority of people don't get. So I love that what you're doing then is sort of rediscovering these for us now because you've been able to do that. Tell us how rediscovering some of these forgotten things can guide us into a deeper love of Jesus and what He's done for us.

Andrew Osenga: Well...I think through that journey of kind of meeting all these people, I started collecting old hymnals—partly because I just like old books. And because I dropped out of college, I would be sitting in the back of the van we were driving around, and I felt, I guess, probably some shame for dropping out of college. And I figured all my friends were reading these smart books, so I would try to read books in the back of the van.

Turns out none of my friends in college were actually reading the books that they were supposed to, but I read them. So we'd be playing these different churches or colleges or things, and people had stopped using hymnals for the most part. Everybody started using screens. So there were always these piles of hymnals that were sitting around. So I'd say, “Hey, can I have one of these?” And they were always like, “You can take them all. We don't know what to do with them.”

You can't see it, but I have this big sort of pile of hymnals over here that I've just collected over the years. And I just kind of thought they were cool. At some point in my late 20s, early 30s, I went through sort of a real time of disillusionment and just sort of hurt, and had some things happen at a church that were hard. And some of the stuff about art and commerce and Christianity got really challenging, just where business and my faith just became really, really hard to deal with. And I didn't—I was questioning everything for a while. And I stayed in the church for sure, but definitely had a lot more questions than I had answers. I'll put it that way.

At that same time, a lot of my community of Christians started to kind of disappear. That happened kind of en masse. And you could see that in just a graph of people my age. A lot of people my age left the church at that time. A huge group of 20s, 30s, and 40s left the church. 

I was looking around and all my friends were sort of disappearing. I was like, what is happening? Why is everybody leaving? And at the same time, I was struggling too. And then I started, for some reason, kind of looking through some of these older things.

I think to find something that I felt like I could trust. And at the same time, I also started finding some of these older liturgical practices. So there's a little Anglican church down the street from my house. It's about two miles away. Our house had flooded. We had been at this Young Life camp for a month. We'd been volunteering.

We had just had a new baby, our third baby, and this pipe had burst in our house while we were volunteering. And it ran for like three weeks and it flooded our whole house. And we came back and the floor was gone. It just totally wrecked our house. The insurance payment was more than what our house cost when we bought the house.

We had to move out. We had to rebuild the whole house. I mean, we lost everything. And my wife was postpartum. We had this tiny little kid.

Ellen Krause: Ugh.

Andrew Osenga: It was just awful. It was awful. It was the hardest season of our lives. And I just was like, God, what is happening? And this little Anglican church, they had a Bible study where there was this priest, and then there were probably like ten women in their 70s and 80s that met on Wednesdays at noon. And for some reason, I started going to it.

I wasn't an Anglican, but it was just a thing I could go to because I usually played concerts on the weekends. So that I could go during the week. And I would sit there with these old ladies and this priest, who would be baffled by the questions these old ladies would ask because they were so random and wild and hilarious.

And half of them had dementia, and they would ask like the craziest questions. It was so funny.

Ellen Krause: [laughs]

Andrew Osenga: But he loved them so much. It was so sweet. It was awesome. And I just sort of fell in love with that whole little community. Through that, I started kind of learning about some of these older practices.

And we would go through these little liturgies where they would read a prayer aloud. And I'd never done that before. That was not something in the tradition I had grown up with. We were really skeptical of that. You just pray out loud and you just say what you think. But then we were reading these prayers, and they were really beautiful. And it would guide us through a thought. Like, wow, this is really moving.

And as a songwriter, I know what it feels like to move through a thought, and to have sort of a beginning and a middle and an end, and to be guided through this thing. And it was so powerful.

And we would have confession and absolution and all these little moments that I was like, this is so amazing. And I would ask the priest about it, and he would tell me about how they've been doing this for 600 years or 1,200 years. And I was like, wow, why am I just discovering this?

Ellen Krause: Yeah.

Andrew Osenga: "It's not new, man. We've been doing this forever. It's like the stuff you grew up with is new. This stuff is old." I was like, that's crazy. So I just got more and more curious about it and just really explored it and studied it. And I came back to life. It's been invigorating.

So I wrote this book about it, kind of not because I'm an expert. I'm not. I'm a guitar player. I'm a guitar player who found something really exciting, and I want to tell my friends about it. So I talk about these old hymns. It's not really like, here's this song. It's more, here's what these songs are about.

So I've worked in worship music for the last 20 years. I was a musician for about 15 years full-time, played guitar for a lot of folks, was in some bands. And then I've been in the music business world for 10 years. So I was an executive for 10 years.

And what I know is, in churches, we tend to sing about three or four kinds of songs. You know, en masse, typically we sing about how God is good, God loves us, and how that makes me feel. Those are pretty much what we sing about on a Sunday morning. And sometimes now, more and more, we're starting to sing about how God fights for us.

All those things are true and good, and we should totally be singing those things on a regular basis. But—if you look at these old hymnals that are sitting to my left here, there are a thousand other topics that they are also covering. We're singing about giving. We're singing about missions. We're singing about adoption. We're singing about grieving. We're singing about doubt. We're singing about oppression. It's non-stop, the list of things that these hymnals cover that we do not typically sing in an American service.

So that's what I wanted to talk about in this book. What other kinds of songs could we be singing? Because people come into a church service and they sit down in a pew and they might need something.

Those three topics don't cover everything. They might have just had the worst day of their life. And if you've got 400 people in a room, somebody had the worst day of their life that week. Also, somebody might have had the best day of their life that week. Somebody might have the biggest questions.

We just don't know what people might need. And so to be able to sing a wider range of songs, to sing about loving your enemy, is so vitally important. Because we don't leave church with a sermon stuck in our head, but we do with these songs.

These songs are what teach us and shape us, what we think about God. And so it's really important that we sing a lot of kinds of songs that teach us really, really, really carefully and thoughtfully about what is true.

Ellen Krause: Great point.

You know, when you said that you write about these hymns, it sounded so dry saying that. And I want to make sure that our listeners know that you're also a songwriter and you do have a gift of writing, because I could not stop reading. 

Andrew Osenga: Thank you. 

Ellen Krause: I could not stop reading because you have so many—just very relational. Like, you're very authentic about what's going on in your own life and just your storytelling ability just brings it to life. And that's what really drew me in.

Andrew Osenga: You're so kind, Ellen. Thank you.

Ellen Krause: Here's a fun question for you though. What is your favorite hymn, by the way?

Andrew Osenga: Oh my gosh. 

Ellen Krause: I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.

Andrew Osenga: Mine is What a Friend We Have in Jesus. That song just destroys me. I love it so much.

Ellen Krause: Love that one too, because I grew up Lutheran, so I do all those hymns. My favorite one is—gosh, I'm gonna draw a blank here—Beautiful Savior. Beautiful Savior, King of Creation.

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, that's a great song. Man, the melody of that song. Some of those songs, musically, they do so much work too. It's not just the lyrics, but the melody of that song wrecks me. It's stunning. And the fact that they've got generations behind them carries so much weight too.

Ellen Krause: Yeah. Love, love, love that one.

Andrew Osenga: I have a memory of my grandmother singing that song. And that means something, you know? There's something really powerful about that.

Ellen Krause: Yeah, it truly does. And I want to talk about that next, Andrew, because—I love that what you had said was that these practices form us over time. And I can see that now, looking back on my life, and how those have worked in my heart and my life, rather than the other way around.

Andrew Osenga: Hmm.

Ellen Krause: Tell us a little bit about how those historical hymns and liturgies are actually forming us and helping us to be Christ followers, and learning about Him and how to follow Him.

Andrew Osenga: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think what's beautiful about them, here's what I think is so interesting, is that some of these songs and liturgies too, like the idea of liturgy, that’s sometimes a daunting word, but it just means like something that you practice. It's something that you do over and over.

Every church actually has a liturgy. Whatever you do on a regular basis is your liturgy. Some churches call it tradition. But if you are a church that typically stands and says these words together, you will find at first it's weird if you come into it as an adult, right? You're like, okay, why are we all standing and saying this?

And then after a while, you just sort of get numb to it and you just say it. And you're like, okay, here's the part where we say this thing. And then at one point, you find yourself just like walking through Target on a Tuesday afternoon, and you just start saying to yourself in your head, Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Like, huh, yeah. It has like moved from your lips to your brain—

into your bloodstream, you know? And that's something so powerful. Like it just becomes a part of you, sort of whether you want it to or not. It's that way with the Creed. It's that way with all these different little pieces of this liturgy.

Now that we've been going to this church for 13 years, I could do the whole service blind. And at one point—

Ellen Krause: Ugh, absolutely.

Andrew Osenga:  —you could say, yeah, that's boring and it's not exciting and we don't have screens and there's no rock band. And also, it has shaped me so much in that way. There's so much Scripture that I know, and there's so much doctrine that I know. And I'm so grateful for that.

And so much that my kids know, that I think they're probably bored with right now. I guarantee you they are bored with it. They think it is probably very boring. And there will come a day where they are walking through Target and they will know that too, you know? And I'm so grateful for that.

And it's the same thing with these songs. We get these songs stuck in our heads. And you know, I don't know about you, but I was an Awana kid. Like, I went to Awana as a kid, which was this sort of like Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, but for Bible memorization. It's a little different now, but it still essentially is that kind of thing. They're an amazing organization.

Ellen Krause: Yeah. Sure.

Andrew Osenga: And they help kids learn the Bible. And they had a lot of songs that were little Bible songs. And it's so fun now to read through the Bible and you hit a little passage and you're like, immediately this little melody springs to mind. Like, yeah, I know that. I've known that since I was four years old.

And how often in life a situation comes up and that melody pops up in your head that you've known since you were four years old. You're like, I'm really glad I know that, because that actually applies. I need to know that.

Or I'm just so grateful for these things that seem boring until they're necessary.

Ellen Krause: Right, right. I was blessed as a young person going through confirmation class, having a pastor who, when we learned the Lord's Prayer, he really dissected it. 

Andrew Osenga: Amazing. 

Ellen Krause: He helped us understand that it's not something you're just gonna rattle off. Like, you know, like kids when they're saying grace, you know, before dinner, how fast can you say it? Because you just want to eat, you know? But I will treasure that always, in that when we do say that prayer, I'm thinking through it.

And there are so many of those things that are so rich that you talked about, the creeds and—

Andrew Osenga: Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen Krause: really forming, at least for me, just this firm foundation of what I do believe because I had said it so many times.

Andrew Osenga: It's so amazing. And to know we are not the first people to do this. That when you talk about this creed, it's like we're 1,700 years into that. 

Ellen Krause: Yeah. 

Andrew Osenga: That's uniting us with people way before America, way before denominations, way before Catholics and Protestants split. I mean, like, you go way back. And that just changes the way you think about some of this stuff.

It changes the way you can put your arms around your brothers and sisters, the way you can work together, the way you can care for each other and pray for each other. 

Ellen Krause: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Osenga: And I'm so grateful to be able to kind of have those eyes now to see people that I didn't have before.

Ellen Krause: Yes, you know, my husband and I have been watching this series on the history of the Bible, and I will find out what it is and put a link in the show notes. But one of the episodes was talking exactly about the Nicene Creed and how it was developed, you know, like so many years ago.

And for me, I loved hearing that because I love knowing that it's so old, and that the first church had already been able to follow God's—or Jesus'—commission to them. I mean, already for several hundred years that had been happening.

And to know then that the Nicene Creed is even older for us, that many more years old.

Andrew Osenga: Yeah.

Ellen Krause: I just found it so comforting.

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, it really is. To know that, like, yeah, we don't have to create all these things on our own. And there's a lot we can lean on and just sort of take some of the pressure off.

Ellen Krause: Right. Well, Andrew, as we wrap up here, what's one simple practice? Because you've probably piqued a lot of curiosity in people. What's one simple practice someone could try this week?

Andrew Osenga: I've been really leaning into what's called the daily office, which is morning and evening prayer.

Many different denominations have their versions of the Book of Common Prayer. Essentially, what it has in the back of it is just like a Bible reading plan. It can look a lot fancier, but really it's a Bible reading plan, if you want to break it down.

It just has an Old Testament reading and a New Testament reading that you read in the morning and at night. That kind of, throughout the course of a couple years, walks you through the Old Testament and the New Testament. And that's been a real gift to me.

And to have a guide through that that a lot of people are walking through together, I've really enjoyed that. That's been really fun. And to know that I'm doing that with a lot of people, I've enjoyed that.

Ellen Krause: Love that. Well, Andrew, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and your new book, How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to an Authentic Faith?

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, thank you. I've got a website with my name, Andrew Osenga. I've got a Substack where I write about faith and music and art and culture just about every week.

And you can find that on my website. And then I've got a podcast called The Pivot, where I talk to people about what happens when life stops working the way it used to.

Ellen Krause: Well, we will make sure we put the links to all of those in our show notes. Before I let you go, though, we have to ask our favorite questions here. What is your go-to Bible, and what translation is it?

Andrew Osenga: I've been a CSB guy for a couple years. I really like the CSB. The one I'm using right now, I've got three different versions of it, but the one I have with me is this little small one.

I've got one in my bag that's like medium size. And then I've got a big one that doesn't have any chapter numbers, like verse numbers.

Ellen Krause: Right.

Andrew Osenga: And it's single column. So it reads like a novel. I like that a lot. That's really a fun way to read it. I forget what they call it, but yeah, it has no numbers in it and no notes. It's just the words.

Ellen Krause: Okay, right. Right. Ooh, that's cool. I haven't heard of that one before. That's really neat. 

Andrew Osenga: And it just reads differently. It reads more like when you read a letter or you read a story. It reads like a letter or a story. And that's a really fun way to read it. So I like that a lot.

Ellen Krause: Okay, do you have any favorite journaling supplies that you like to use for Bible journaling? 

Andrew Osenga: I am a bad journaler. I wish I was better at journaling. Most of my journaling is songwriting.

Ellen Krause: Well, that still counts. 

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, my favorite journaling supplies are my guitars back here. Yeah, those are probably my favorite journaling supplies.

Ellen Krause: Absolutely. Wow, that's so cool. 

Andrew Osenga: And I love them so much. 

Ellen Krause: [laughs] Awesome. I can see that. They look beautiful. Okay, last question. What is your favorite app or website for Bible study tools?

Andrew Osenga: I mean, I use the Bible Gateway app, or is it the Holy Bible? What is it? The Bible Gateway app. I think that's the one that everybody uses.

Ellen Krause: Well, there's an app called YouVersion. It's the Bible. Looks like the Bible.

Andrew Osenga: Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. There's the Bible Gateway app I use all the time on the computer, and then the YouVersion app on the phone. I use both of those.

Then I also listen often to a podcast called the Daily Liturgy podcast that's done by a church in Lincoln, Nebraska that has done it faithfully for years and years and years.

Ellen Krause: Yes.

Andrew Osenga: Different people in the congregation read it. They just read through the daily readings of the liturgy and a couple of prayers, short prayers. It takes about 12 to 15 minutes every day, and it's awesome. They do a great job. It's beautifully done. So I listen to that a lot.

Ellen Krause: Wow. Okay, well we will look that up too and put a link. I'm gonna have to check that out too.

Well, Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your love of God and His church. It's just been such an encouragement to me and to everyone listening.

Andrew Osenga: Thank you. It's been a real treat. Thank you, Ellen. Thank you so much.

Ellen Krause: You are welcome. And to our listeners, wherever you are right now, may you be reminded that God is near, He is faithful, and He is still forming you, often in quieter, slower ways than we expect.

If you enjoyed this episode, I hope that you will leave a comment, review, or share a message through the link in the show notes. We would love to hear from you.

Thank you for listening to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.