Fertility Forward

Ep 12: Mind-Body Connection, Relationships, and Navigating Ovum and/or Sperm Donation with Lori Metz, Psychotherapist

March 26, 2020 Rena Gower & Dara Godfrey Season 1 Episode 12
Fertility Forward
Ep 12: Mind-Body Connection, Relationships, and Navigating Ovum and/or Sperm Donation with Lori Metz, Psychotherapist
Chapters
Fertility Forward
Ep 12: Mind-Body Connection, Relationships, and Navigating Ovum and/or Sperm Donation with Lori Metz, Psychotherapist
Mar 26, 2020 Season 1 Episode 12
Rena Gower & Dara Godfrey

Joining us today is Lori Metz, a licensed clinical social worker, and certified case manager who is also board certified in tele-mental-health and the host of her own podcast. Lori has adopted a positive psychology approach that includes mindfulness and cognitive behavioral health in partnering with her patients in an optimistic, goal-oriented manner, and embraces the idea that each of us has a unique path. In this episode, you will learn more about the importance of communicating and seeking support throughout the fertility journey and how to use mindfulness techniques to aid emotional regulation. There are so many complex and conflicting emotions involved in the process of getting fertility treatment and pregnancy and therefore it is important to seek any means possible to make the journey a bit easier on both partners.

Show Notes Transcript

Joining us today is Lori Metz, a licensed clinical social worker, and certified case manager who is also board certified in tele-mental-health and the host of her own podcast. Lori has adopted a positive psychology approach that includes mindfulness and cognitive behavioral health in partnering with her patients in an optimistic, goal-oriented manner, and embraces the idea that each of us has a unique path. In this episode, you will learn more about the importance of communicating and seeking support throughout the fertility journey and how to use mindfulness techniques to aid emotional regulation. There are so many complex and conflicting emotions involved in the process of getting fertility treatment and pregnancy and therefore it is important to seek any means possible to make the journey a bit easier on both partners.

spk_0:   0:14
everyone, We're green and era and welcome to fertility. Ford were part of the wellness team at Army of New York, a fertility clinic affiliated with Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Our fertility for a podcast brings together advice for medical professionals, mental health specialists, wellness experts and patients because knowledge is power and you're your own best advocate.

spk_1:   0:36
Laurie Mets is a licensed clinical social worker, a certified case manager and board certified in Tele Mental health. She's adopted a positive psychology approach that includes mindfulness and cognitive behavioral health. In partnering with her patients an optimistic, goal oriented manner, she understands that we are all unique and that we will all have our own unique pass. In this episode, we discussed the importance of communicating and seeking guidance throughout the fertility journey and also using mindfulness techniques to help with emotional regulation. Today's podcast is gonna be great. Not only is it Halloween, but we have Lori Mets, a dear friend of mine who is a licensed clinical social worker, and she has a podcast herself called Life Love Insight. Fertility experiences. Laurie, we're so glad to have you. I was so thrilled to be here I always love talking t dairy like one of my favorite people. I'm sure this is strange to like Be on the other side. It's really strange. Has

spk_0:   1:43
never going there again.

spk_1:   1:44
Well, we were in touch, I believe, five years ago now, 45 years ago, through a mutual friend in the fertility world Miriam Ellis, who's fabulous way hot on our podcast Because acupuncture. She's our acupuncturist. Yes. And post diagnostic Este es and s. So she put us in touch and we all met and we realized we really didn't mesh well together. And we've done What are they? They're workshop taught. We did assumption that we didn't have projects. And

spk_2:   2:18
the interesting thing is that people get so engaged. And I think part of it's just the dynamic of how the three was kind of meshed, whose is really, really nice. And it's a wonderful experience to be able to do them because people get so much from them. They

spk_1:   2:32
really D'oh! I wish there were more out there. I know, Lori, this might be a great plug for you. You are organizing or trying to organize Ah, couple of these down the road that correct I am absolutely think you mentioned that because all how did People don't have the time to dedicate to finding out more about the bio psychosocial aspects of fertility or mind, body

spk_2:   2:52
and soul. Whichever way appeals to you more on and those they're such important components, and very often we don't turn into them. But there would helps us in our everyday life, because when she get involved in fertility and you begin treatment or even work before you begin treatment, it becomes a thought. Every day of every minute consumes. It's totally consuming. And the further down the road you have to go through the journey, the more consuming it becomes. So I think that these were really helpful, especially if you can get like the partners together. Yes, not just the woman. Or, you know, whoever your partner. Maybe because the partners are going through this, too. And very often I find myself sainted people who I'm working with, either individually or in a crew. How's your partner doing? And me? You see this luck of you know? Oh, my God, I never asked. Yeah, I have one woman who was crying and I said, Well, don't cry. I said, You know, he needs to support, too. But he's been

spk_1:   3:51
so supportive of her, she hasn't thought of it. All right. Doesn't make her dad. Uh,

spk_2:   3:56
it just makes us realize is kind of a spotlight on how much you go through when you started Fertility journey.

spk_0:   4:02
Oh, yeah. Have Devon for each partner, right? You know, to be the partner who's watching a loved one go theirs and if they can't solve and that is difficult in a completely different way than to be the one who you're putting your body through it,

spk_2:   4:15
it's very different. And also you can take more of a break even if you go out with a friend. Yes, you know, you can do that any what you

spk_1:   4:22
want to do it. You know, I think about it. I think that although they're not talking about fertility with men and what they eat and what they ingest stuff, really, I talk about when I do meet with a meal partners. But I really do wish that no matter what, there was more conversation, not just on one. You know, the female partner, but female male partner. Just the idea of working together, not just being exclusively the person who's carrying. So we go from the statement, the eye statement to the way statement Remember Raid, which is something that

spk_2:   4:55
we always talked that couples therapy. So you want to be we not I And there's actually a research done at Berkeley about it in California about representing you and your partner's obey. So it's not just you going through it. It's both of you going through

spk_0:   5:08
Tona you not all these breaks. I heard it enough. I'm from her. You hear this tune? I don't know when 70 says, Oh, it's my fault or it's his daughter Her fault. And I say, Okay, well, as nobody's fault, right,

spk_1:   5:20
it's a medical condition right out of law. This is a medical condition, and we don't look at it that way, pointing the blame. It's hurt. Be hurtful, very hurtful. Well, it's hard

spk_2:   5:31
what people do to themselves, you know, it really fits into so much that you've gone through prior to even beginning this journey, you'll have this image of ourselves,

spk_0:   5:41
right? I remember that oven pathology into this process

spk_2:   5:44
on if you came in and secure about yourself, or maybe always thinking that this one had it better than me. Or you know what's going on with me that I can't do this. Yeah, well, that horrible The secrecy comes in. The secrecy isn't. It's okay to be private, not tell people what you're doing, depending on how you you go about things. But if you're keeping a secret because you feel bad about yourself, that's a whole nother story. And then they have started years

spk_1:   6:11
ago. Yeah, but festers and it build on. It could be quite destructive.

spk_2:   6:17
Well, it is because information to a crisis, because many times, you know, I think I mentioned she really quickly. Many times you're young when you started fertility journey. Even if they say your geriatric fertility Americans, you're 35. That's kind of hate to say this oId don't wanna get every physician Sandy, but it's nonsense. 35 years old, you're still a young person. Maybe your eggs aren't quite as young, but there's no magic number. But many people haven't gone through a health crisis yet at this point in their life. And this becomes a health crisis, right? You have to go over the plan chores. You have to if you're just, you know, fortune after not have to go through it. You know, a IVF cycle that maybe just go implement such dramatic too,

spk_0:   6:57
right? I always say anybody look regardless of wire in this office, is it? You're getting your blood drawn you're doing. And I know why you're doing IVF it all dramatic because it's not what you expected. No one expect known grew up. You know that I've come home pictured, as you know, a child or you have a person. Okay, I'm gonna grow up and then begins. Even a doctor's office also reverses. And while you're here, it's traumatic. It doesn't matter,

spk_1:   7:20
right? Even making the longtime point, I have the

spk_2:   7:23
chills. So she said that because making the phone call does it right. You see this too? It came to losing. You have a problem,

spk_1:   7:29
right? I I just wish my biggest. I don't know the disappointment that I wish this was more disgust. Maybe first line you come into an office and the first thing that you mentioned by the way, it's a great thing to talk about it with someone who is an expert who could help give you something port.

spk_2:   7:50
Well, communication, you know, that's a big thing

spk_1:   7:53
is so important because we have to learn how to communicate with everybody, not just our friend hers, but family or friends. You. When your doctor's office, I was

spk_0:   8:03
so much easier. When you're just community, I say There's no such thing as over communication.

spk_1:   8:07
It's knowing how to communicate, right? Because people get health for hours. I find me a stranger in the same style. Disputes friendly. You know, I don't know nothing about me. I'll talk to them about absolutely nothing. But imagine

spk_0:   8:21
what a difference that makes you know. I look a summons. Angry. It's never about you. Yeah, maybe their route to you and ask you about you. It's about them. And maybe they're getting divorced. Maybe they're going

spk_1:   8:33
through fertility between the soul That's there 30 minutes late. A war, you know. So imagine,

spk_0:   8:37
you know, in one of things, I talked about a lot of patients. I do a lot of positive psychology. Work is heated. Oh, yeah, is random acts of kindness and introduce that tear day into that into your daily life and to imagine if senator to you, instead of responding with anger, the sound of kindness. Oh, I'm so sorry. You know it. You must be going through a lot.

spk_1:   8:56
It's so interesting. You said that I actually, you know, I always get upset when I opened. You know, when I open the door for someone and someone walks in without saying thank you, my response is often e I just feel like these days I've tried to, like reframe it and be like, Why am I saying that? I'm saying that to make them feel bad or to make myself feel better. But it is. The day doesn't make you feel great and realize that maybe culturally, they were never taught to say thank you. Or maybe they've had a really rough day in their mind is somewhere else. But I think if you can refrain that in tow, you know, not having that anger into everyday life. But the anger comes

spk_2:   9:37
from, like much more of a core. Yes,

spk_0:   9:39
but then I could Really What is it you want? Validation. Do

spk_1:   9:42
want Theo, You've got it. I want validation. I was always told you Say thank you And please, please and thank you. Offensive. How do you not acknowledge that I'm trying to help you,

spk_0:   9:54
Brit, But then again, it's like it's not really about you, right? It's about them and their in their own world. I was get their hair taken. People walk into me on the street because they're looking at their phones. I'm really big into mindfulness, and I consciously do not walk around looking at my phone book, a band, you where

spk_1:   10:10
you're gonna want exercise. I give people into believing they have to walk. I don't have

spk_2:   10:18
to know what he has to do anything.

spk_1:   10:19
But what I say is that one of the people on the street, different people, get the reaction like sometimes, like what? E. I often get smiles back, and it's a simple thing, and it really does calm you down without having to meditate. It's just through

spk_0:   10:43
this. You're an infertility, know you're so in your head or something to make the SATs. Put your phone away when you're walking and just smile. Take yourself outside yourself and see you know what it does for you in your mood.

spk_1:   10:54
It's similar also in the subway. I look around, every single person is on their phone. I am too sometimes

spk_0:   11:00
saying on this ever. Yes,

spk_1:   11:01
but sometimes I'm just like you know what? Enough. I could take a couple minutes, put it away, look around. And sometimes you do like lock eyes of people and a smile. In Texas, such a nice thing to have a

spk_0:   11:13
human connection

spk_2:   11:14
is communication. And when we talk about in case we talked that connection I mentioned, you know, I really believe in the five senses because we have five senses for a reason and they allow us to communicate. So

spk_1:   11:24
we don't usually talk about that. Nobody really talks about. I don't think the last school. Yeah, I like to talk about it. People usually like look at me when I first said, But it's trip, so communication is rebel in number, but we don't know that. Also smell, you know, whether it's good or bad,

spk_2:   11:44
that when you think about going home for the holidays and we're gonna be like, really nervous or cringing. But I don't know, maybe somebody's making something you love the spotty way. So we smell, taste, touch seeing and hearing that and help us communicate. If somebody's upset, you give them a hug, you touch their arm it just lets him know that somebody say Who can't super powerful right? They use musical, African a cell

spk_1:   12:09
are hearing That's a big one. I think I really think that music can really stir up, of course, fond memories. Maybe not so fun. But it could be used as a great tool. I'm sure to help make you feel good way.

spk_2:   12:22
Also, in terms of the human, anything else you need to listen differently. So I'm sure you do this, but it's so she was working with a Couples. It's what they're saying and what they're hearing right. This is a big piece of the communication that I'll try and talk to people about going through this because it's important to think about your thoughts and your feelings. And lots of times one person might think about like what they're saying in terms with wet, but not get to the underlying feeling. And that's where a lot of the imbalance comes in. This is my opinion that it kind of makes sense right on, but I'm sure it goes along with, like, a mindfulness type of thought process s o. If we have our thoughts. So we have a feeling so they don't Carly. We're just balance. We're just not feeling 100%. But if we can't least understand our thought and understand the emotion, maybe no, we should do something. We feel like we don't want to. Well, then we could work on it. Yeah, figure out. Do we have to go? What would make us feel better about it, which was should be proceeds. He insisted that moment for a minute. And whether that's mindfulness or just coursing or just being conscious, we need to take that moment and just look at it through a different lens.

spk_0:   13:34
Well, you know, I think that's so hard for people to do because especially if it's in New York City thing or so the patient population. But I know for me, too. It was a lot of work to learn how to do that to pots, you know, we're so used to go, going, going, going and find a solution being active, you know, doing something that feels like you're working to solve your problem. And so just pausing is very hard. Said

spk_2:   13:58
I'm gonna do something unpleasant perspective, which is something I started saying, I don't know. 78 years ago. Two people, Let's just pull us. You don't get a perspective and all of a sudden I thought, Oh my God, that's like a great term But if he used,

spk_0:   14:11
I love that

spk_2:   14:12
took some at a convention, I took some website names. So positive perspective. It's my website. Also about my website Will it comes up with my name because I love the terminology and have a little talk on it. Oh, because we need to do that. So everybody talks about mindfulness, which is fabulous. I love it. I'm a proponent of it. I took a course in it, you know, I use it, but it becomes a little bit overwhelming for some people to think that

spk_1:   14:39
being a term like mindfulness or even meditation could be overweight.

spk_0:   14:42
And Devin turn people out this I can't do that

spk_1:   14:45
right? I was trying for this. I can't do it.

spk_2:   14:47
But if you just

spk_1:   14:48
ask him to pull us for a minute and think about what's really going on, Yeah, I'm getting that

spk_2:   14:52
perspective. It's really helpful.

spk_0:   14:54
I have that in full disclosure here, right? I have you wearing us to say I am a fairly reactive person and I contended a pretty trigger happy and having a reaction. And I've been working a lot on how did not be like that. And this one story that Buddha really resonated with me, and I found myself sharing of the patients a lot and they all love it and the way it's written as much more eloquent than I'll tell you. But basically on the justice, Buddhist sends a disciple to get him water from the lake, and the disciple goes to the weak and the lakes. Dirty comes back and he says, Buddha, I couldn't bring you water because the lake was dirty. Buddha says, Okay, we'll just wait 30 minutes, wait an hour, then go back and check again to the stable waits. He goes back, and then the water's clean. So is able to bring Buddha back the water. And he says, Buddha, how did you know? And then Buddha said, Well, like in life, anything with time kettles wait and in the wake, you know, the mud settled with a clean and again the way is right is not for eloquent and how I said it. We gotta just Jake, that I love that I carry that around a lot, and I myself sharing with patients a lot.

spk_2:   15:57
Uh, I think that's a wonderful analogy for you. It might not be wonderful for somebody else, but for you. Is that the perfect analogy? And that's what you'll need to do. We need to find what works for us right now. Imagine what critics as under those somebody this morning really early seven o'clock and we were talking about the job. Opportunity came along for her. Nothing to do with fertility at all. But the message is kind of the same, and she doesn't know she's taken a huge promotion. They wanted member of three levels. I mean, uh, clearly, she's really, incredibly qualified and she's bright and she's beautiful and she's nice. I mean, she's really a nice, nice person, and she's wearing just one. Get in over her head. And so while we're talking, you know the key there is. Just take a minute. I think you're not where it fits into the rest of your life. And if if it's in, then go for it was the downside. But if you keep mulling over that same thing, you don't take that moment It's really hard to figure out with an exception

spk_0:   16:58
for the cost of the unknown. And uncertainty are really difficult to

spk_1:   17:01
be scary. Really scary.

spk_2:   17:03
I often recommend go to the worst. Sorry, worst case scenario. I often wait a minute. I will say it because it's every few find. It's not. It's a little freeing for something

spk_0:   17:15
I forget. The name of that is this visiting therapeutic technique and I forget the name of it and exactly I have to look it up. But where you do that exactly. So you first come up with the worst case scenario. Then you back up from there. So First USA, the worst case and then you go backwards.

spk_2:   17:29
I don't necessarily. It depends on the person. I won't do that way, you know. But after you get to know somebody more after maybe meeting and even once, if you know something, it's on somebody's mind, like fertility. And what if I have to use a donor egg? Or what if I have to use ah surrogate? Or what if I go for adoption? You know, those are kind of some of the later options and potentials that come to the table and people will say No, I would never do that And so you kind of want to address it. That's Mars. They're carrying it around with him. I don't really know about the specific therapy that you're mentioning. It's almost in made that you want to state. The obvious is many times we just talked about that when I was talking about that, the posting I did today, that's true, Lord and somebody said to take down a sentence because it was too negative and in my mind it wasn't negative. It's stating the obvious. It's stating when people think

spk_1:   18:21
of that circus. Yeah, people are thinking about what they're thinking about it good to get it in the open and talk about all the possibilities that should be embarrassed

spk_2:   18:29
to say it. I need to be scared to think it were

spk_1:   18:32
shameful. Even when you're thinking man who shames higher about me because I'm only gets in our

spk_2:   18:37
way with this whole experience and the shame piece of it, that's what the people struggling collapse e think a lot of them those also prior to

spk_1:   18:48
you mean something that happened from childhood or from

spk_2:   18:52
something, something like that, something if we're not necessarily ashamed of something where? Tell me what you think about our like, competitive on a certain level, then we might not be shameful quo, huh? For this experience, we may feel badly. Okay, you really like because I've had people to the core Murder are so embarrassed and so shamed that they can't become fertile, That it can't just be the close of this. But

spk_1:   19:25
it goes back to blaming yourself.

spk_0:   19:27
Yeah, people want a reason. I mean, I think that's a two from questions of blaming yourself, I think is because people want to point to something because I find the most difficult cases are unexplained fertility or secondary infertility it doesn't may have sent right people was almost easier at Okay, I have PCOS or Oh, I have a fibroid or om endometriosis. They fine. You can point to something. There's a reason when I was like, Well, we don't know. People find that very difficult to understand because people want they want certainty.

spk_2:   20:01
Yeah, it was horrible thing. Unexplained infertility. And it's huge. It's a bit like 30% or something. Are you high? And sometimes there is no real known reason. But with any medical condition. It's always awful when the doctor doesn't know where it came from.

spk_0:   20:18
All right, we want humans want, sir. Do they want reason? Right.

spk_2:   20:22
So what do we do? We blame ourselves.

spk_0:   20:23
Exactly. I think it goes to that. But

spk_2:   20:25
if we have an image of ourselves, which is what we're talking about before, where we have a certain kind of life and everything should go a certain way and we're very invested in And they didn't want us to do what you've been realized then it doesn't we can. He shape with a sure thing? Kind of makes sense,

spk_0:   20:42
and I think I've talked about this on here before, But I'm big on a burn, a brown and her philosophy so being vulnerable, sort of the guilt and shame, spiral and residents, a lot of patients and a lot of Bernie's stuff. Arlen for books. And so I find, you know, working through guilt and shame. Running tow. Love yourself kind of getting in the arena, as Bernie says, which was getting to the vulnerable place, allowing yourself to really get in there, you know, feel your feelings, try things out on that says you're living on the sidelines. I'm tired, but I think that's what a wife from her.

spk_2:   21:17
Yeah, well, there's no way not to do that when you're going through fertility,

spk_0:   21:20
right? You're in the right. I got the following. You're here, You're in. It

spk_2:   21:24
s so it's really right there. And for a lot of people think I said that It's a first experience, Yancy. A first experience of medical treatment on feeling like, Why can't I do this? Everybody does. That is who It's hard justice. And then you see all these women you know, a lot of celebrities now 50 years old, they're having babies. Nobody says they're using donor eggs. I wish one person would come forward and just be honest and say I football to Merrill, actually, to her credit decisions, those rates. But being honest about it, you can't just unless you're really, really, really an outline. Er, get

spk_1:   22:05
pregnant with your own age of 50

spk_2:   22:06
years old, now or in your late forties, not because of any other thing but biology. But

spk_1:   22:13
I was wonder if people don't speak up about it. It's not that they're ashamed, but maybe they want to keep something secret. into themselves for

spk_0:   22:22
and also if there's a donor than, you know, to disclose to the child first before the general public knows.

spk_2:   22:28
So I do. Yeah, a lot of work with Dona Ideo. I have, like a lot of feelings about using donor eggs, and my heart goes out to these women over donor sperm but then won't talk about it. They really don't. They don't talk about it. They'll just proceed and go ahead and have the baby and not worry about it unless just a situation like a divorce and then also said they get a little nervous. Some people choose to tell the Children some people don't want. People are choosing to tell the child it comes down to, and please tell me you don't agree with me, but it comes down to how you feel in terms of how the child's going to feel if you could become comfortable with your choice and this is a child's life. They don't know any different. And I was talking to somebody on the phone the other night. This great guy who could have five pass, who is 25 his mom used to surrogate tohave him and his father, who was, you know, his natural biological father passed away. So it's only blood connection in the world. Is sister Get up, he said, which is so true, nobody ever asks me how I'm born. Nobody as soon as they're born to assure again or assumes anything. And then you've heard the story. I'm sure where this little one was explained that he was born or she was worth through a donor egg. And the way the parents explained that they were so excited show until the next day. Anybody have anything? Yes, and he told the entire class that he was born through a donor, a fabulous that's appearance comfort level in the way that they conceived.

spk_0:   24:03
But I think research is showing that the best way is to disclose to your child from a P young age. You normalize that you assure them their loved on DDE. You know they don't know anything else.

spk_2:   24:14
So I wrote a couple books that I'm going to have an illustrator. Somebody who I'm working with actually might illustrate the books, but I want to see if she wants to or not, if she's comfortable doing it. If not, I'll get somebody else. But I wanted to offer the opportunity because people who go through this journey also for my 456 years, they kind of want to do something to help other people. And she's one of these people. And so I think it took to get comfortable with it. And it's really about allowing the parent to become comfortable with the journey more than the Children of their meeting books, too. So

spk_1:   24:44
that's the books on. Uh, that's great. Yeah, I really have to go through it now. It's nice. It's on. Someone else was having mission in my past that I wrote them out

spk_2:   24:56
of need. I think you're just out of whatever and concerned for this population and thinking of different ways to tell their story to their Children. And I do believe it becomes important for the parent to be comfortable if the parent doesn't become comfortable than it resonates throughout. No, they're always probably be a Saturday that wishes that they didn't have to do this. But once the baby's born, the bonding is like unbelievable. I run a group for people who already had these through service see Moammar through Daughter, a they endure their Children. Part of him still wishes they could have actually had the convention. But think of till what would they just don't think about it anymore? And how do they make sure that the child understands? I'm working with somebody right now who had just such a hard journey? Mike's just pregnancy journey, where the pregnancy was lost 28 weeks after trying for years and great Harris just had a baby, and the daily was five way. Shirley, you say, was the pregnancy was challenging the motioning to go through because the preoccupation, the health of the child, there was no time to think about the donor egg because she's too worried viability that you listen. Yeah, there's this beautiful baby who is boring. She's so connected to the baby. But so scared of anything going wrong because she hasn't really had an opportunity to work through the loss of the 26 months. It makes sense for him, but we have to figure out how to become comfortable, and we will do our kind work this way in different time brands in different ways. And if it doesn't happen before the data, sporty happens after so I'd really trying encourage people trying to talk about it, knows everybody, but with who they're comfortable talking about, it would private birth.

spk_0:   27:15
I think a lot of times people don't understand that you can really have to juxtapose an emotions. So

spk_1:   27:21
absolutely, it's such a good point. You

spk_0:   27:23
could be mourning the loss of that first pregnancy. But you can also be excited for your second and happy about the baby that was just born. And I think a lot of people don't understand that you really can have those two opposite emotions at one time. They think. OK, well, first I have to feel sad and more on this. Otherwise, it's really inappropriate for me to move on. But as we all know, a lot of you know, this work, unfortunately, is time sensitive, and sometimes you don't have. You know, everyone's morning Cross is different, but they don't have the time to sit and mourn the loss. And so you really can have, you know, opposing emotions and they can fluctuate from minute to minute hour hour. That's okay, and that's normal.

spk_1:   28:03
Yeah, I said that because it's still in

spk_2:   28:05
front. Of course, you get two opposing emotions at one time, and it makes sense. Look a secondary infertility and love your child. But you're so said that, you know having another one,

spk_0:   28:16
right. I think that's a very hard for people to grapple with and understand that that's okay,

spk_2:   28:21
and we do it in so many different areas of life. So if we tune into sometimes that we do in different areas of life, it makes it easier to realize that it's normal would go through for tell.

spk_1:   28:30
That's true. But sometimes you just need to be reminded

spk_2:   28:32
you low perspective, Yes, but when you just for a second get some perspective and saying Baby, you know what? I've gone through this before and that's life, and that's what we want. Or I wanted me so sure you do, too, I think, just to encourage people to not just put every area of their life on hold while they're

spk_0:   28:51
going through this, Uh, you can't. You have to live your life sort of in peril, you know, going through this process. Wow, we're in all the other hand, you have to wear right professional donors and sister brother, like whatever it is and keep moving forward with their life. Otherwise, you're just stuck. Mom,

spk_2:   29:08
will you two get stuck? And I've heard people say you'd probably have to when they had to take a break for a month, two months a year. It was such a relief. What sounds like a burden off of them because they could take a deep breath now on live loudly where I used to. You know, for whatever reason, that the head what? Maybe they decided to go for donor egg, and there's like a nine month later. Maybe just their body needed to regroup a little bit. But it's interesting to see the dynamic. And then, if you see the person there partner together, huh? The partners so glad to have their old person back. I see need those brakes and sometimes you feel like you can't take it. Could you get on this roller coaster

spk_0:   29:47
ride and you've got to keep moving forward and being proactive. And

spk_1:   29:51
don't think that would be an ideal time to meet with one of you guys. Like, I think that could be a perfect time when you feel like your life is more like it used to be that to be a great idea to plan, so you could maybe have a different perspective. When you do jump back thinking that goes into therapy with feeling good, I think

spk_0:   30:13
that's not a break. Because then you're coming here and talking to me about this Difficult. You're taking yourself back,

spk_1:   30:19
goes to show you have no idea e don't know if I agree with you interested? Yeah, that's what I say. I say, Look, if you want to take

spk_0:   30:25
a break and not think about it, then don't come see me, because then you're sitting here. We're talking about all this negative stuff. Everybody's different. I don't

spk_1:   30:32
think that before, so there's no way I get out of a planner. I'm the plan or something. Okay, yes, I'm taking this break, but let's plan for Western. It's stealing your head, right,

spk_0:   30:43
proactive and doing something and still kind of on this.

spk_2:   30:47
It's interesting. I always think that thing's contaminate and you don't want to talk to your partner, your friends about it. But, like right, you want to be able to get it out somewhere, but not let it impact. So rather than have it fester, sometimes I think it's better to get it out. But I believe in race from everything I believe I believe breaks from dieting.

spk_1:   31:07
I believe in every probably been dieting. Necessarily. Go. I was hoping I you know, I don't believe in dieting. I actually don't

spk_2:   31:18
believe in just eating healthy,

spk_1:   31:20
maybe being less focused on your eating habits. I think it's it is good sometimes to take a step back and

spk_2:   31:25
just be absolutely We need to

spk_0:   31:28
yeah, something break we absolutely wasted. And how in

spk_2:   31:32
I I'm being my best friend in the whole world, my lover, one of my best friends in the whole world. I shouldn't take my expense but one of my favorite people. Honestly, I know her for years and years, and you know, I have this group of friends that I'm so close with, and she's one of them, and I adore her, and so do I. We're just like taking a day off, but I don't think I've ever done that. The two miss arm. We're just gonna spend the day and it's since tree and after my husband loves you, too, he said. I'll come meet you and I said no for me, guys like Esso, it's exciting. Yeah, I'm really looking over two. It's gonna be just a day off. I told people I couldn't talk to them tomorrow for

spk_0:   32:13
you. Really? Unplugs. Don't let me catch you on the

spk_1:   32:16
way. I'm not big on it. I'm not. I really try not to. Although

spk_2:   32:22
if you talk to my husband, probably Sam on the film more than I should be. But you know, a lot of people connect you that guy from the patients and things and to be available. But I don't really care for people like,

spk_1:   32:34
good for you that you tell other people to take a break. And you yourself are taking your own advice. Can you believe I have to

spk_0:   32:42
go there? You can take care of anybody else.

spk_1:   32:43
Don't you get yourself to one with you. I want to go back, Thio relationships and the importance of having the discussion. And a lot of times we all meet with 1/2 and we don't always meet. If there is a partner in the picture, we don't always meet with that other partner on. I really do think of something that we need to know. I'm so glad

spk_2:   33:02
you brought us back to this because I wanted to mention before that I actually was so lucky. I spoke with two men on a podcast about what it was like for them to go through

spk_1:   33:13
that. Listen to it great, Theo.

spk_2:   33:15
It was actually my most listen to podcasts because men don't talk then and they've opened very, very different journeys, very different. Also,

spk_0:   33:24
they were in a couple. They were each other own, know Germany.

spk_2:   33:29
One of them is not married to his girlfriend. They've been together for I have many, many, many years at this 10.10 years, maybe morning and gone through an incredibly long road and went out using a donor egg. And the other one is best friend passed away while they were starting their second round of Crimea, and she kind of took it all on herself because he was mourning the process of his best friend passing away. And so they built had totally different situations. But the message was totally the same, which is a wish them didn't feel so isolated the Russian people to talkto her, and they just did such a good job expressing it in conveying a man's perspective on it or partners. I don't want to just say just advance perspective because just get, you know, couples also on lesbian couples. Also going through this, the partners perspective. It's important.

spk_1:   34:26
Yeah, and I think also, I mean, I don't want to make this generalization, but as women, I could speak for myself, and I'm sure he was, too. We tend to seek things out. We don't feel good, We go to the doctor, and I feel a lot of times men, or at least the men that I've experienced, often keep things inside.

spk_2:   34:45
Well, they do. And I was talking to a physician who started a clinic in Brooklyn, and he's in charge of the reproductive technology area in the manatees, and he was saying that the men struggle alone. It was so happy that I was trying to get to park it together for the man, and you

spk_0:   35:03
didn't Resource is for a minute, so hard to find, even for those men that are seeking them at, you know, there's just unfortunately, not enough, not enough.

spk_2:   35:12
I'm really thrilled that their fertility market and the fertility professionals are nest orange. Look at men because they need to. We need to do what? We need to publicize it. Yeah. You trying todo

spk_1:   35:26
it is, right? Yeah. So do you remember we were doing something? We try to separate the men from the women. Yeah, I have a menu where the partners just sit and talk. That's what we wanted to do. Yeah, Yeah, because it's powerful.

spk_2:   35:39
They're going through a lot, and we don't necessarily recognize that I was working One couple and the man kept your cell phone in the pocket and they were married. And the wife was really angry about that cell phone being in his pocket. She said, I'm taking all these drugs and all this medication, and you can take your cell phone with, you know, whatever kind of razor coming through

spk_1:   36:01
out of your pocket. And I could affect their sperm. Yeah,

spk_2:   36:04
right. She was really angry about it, and you could understand it.

spk_1:   36:08
I see it also with my patients in terms of hope, but it put you off arena. But quickly. I wanted to mention I see that a lot with you know, the women are get frustrated. I can't have alcohol or need to reduce my alcohol consumption. I have to reduce my caffeine consumption and my husband like fingers is not that it's not my issue. It's her issue and they don't see eye to eye and they're not supporting each other. And so I love it when I see couples together, because I really got to mention that it is. You guys are a partnership. You have to work together and support one another. You know, it takes to the dance firm

spk_2:   36:41
just get affected by being my So if you're not getting correctly and you're not healthy, you're being Maya's gonna be affected. And

spk_1:   36:47
a light brown eyes both, you know, college. I'm sorry, you know,

spk_2:   36:52
But the percentage and I don't know what it is. I really apologize of men. And fertility has increased infertility situation.

spk_1:   37:01
After I thought I was like 30% around 30% male, 30% female, and then around 30% unknown or nothing happened. Yeah,

spk_2:   37:13
it's changing now, but the statistics haven't come out till I just justify it. But from what I understand, some of the newer figures and it's a new figures 9% now.

spk_1:   37:25
I also wonder if you know I always think about food, and I wonder if that something has to do with environment and something that has to do with diet. E. I just did a whole thing on this e just yes, we're talking about the environmental factor. Yes, which is really fascinating pollution. The plastic. Guess you don't scare somebody, though, So the consumption, but not even the soda consumption. Anything in a can increase marijuana. Yes, yes, that's a huge one.

spk_2:   37:58
Had a talk with some people that I know about the marijuana use and the impact that house was everything we consume. It's gonna impact our buys if it didn't have starved bodies. There's no reason to think it wouldn't impact every organ or every system in our body. And one of the things with carrying a child is that your nurturing that fetus from the moment of conception. And we think of that. Whether it's a daughter a or you're a or donor sperm or, you know, your partner's son, you are the person caning it can. You were the person nurturing it. So that's why all the sudden you tomb orangey knows better than I did that there any tumor into what you're eating or what you're doing because you want to make sure that the sea this is growing as healthy as possible. But why not do that for ourselves all the time?

spk_1:   38:49
I love that point. That's why sometimes it's good Thio work on it, going into a pregnancy during pregnancy to create those habits that hopefully could be translated when the child or Children come into this world. So and a terrific story to tell you. Thanks for processing that this really. I

spk_2:   39:07
think it's very extreme. I'm working with this one woman who is so sensitive and so sweet and so anxious because, you know, if you're very sensitive and very sweet than your anxiety level in certain situations could be sleeping up Mmm. And they can come out in all different ways. So she went for a transfer, and the anesthesiologist told her that she was so fat that it was going to be a problem

spk_1:   39:32
with. That's what this woman said. Or maybe if that's what the now he also said. I said,

spk_2:   39:40
Did you call the physician and tell the physician and she doesn't really love Tell the physician on and I've really encouraged her. I think her husband with positional letter because she doesn't want to go back. So now she's

spk_1:   39:51
gone on a diet, but it crashed only taken off

spk_2:   39:55
£2025 before the next round. I don't know what is in your body.

spk_1:   40:02
I mean, this is for a whole another high caste discussion, because I think, you know, there's a lot to be said and there's lots of points of views. Every clinic has different protocol with anesthesiologists. I know here in our May, women can't undergo, not transfer, but that usually anesthesiologist it comes in for retrieval. When we retrieve the eggs are requirements are toe have a BM I that's under 40 because it makes there are more complications associated with ah, hire B M. I also relies on more medication, and when there's more medication through, the more

spk_2:   40:37
risk it could be. There's also comes with being too thin.

spk_1:   40:41
I'm so happy. I mean, I know we mentioned this on your podcast when I came thio human, and the unfortunate thing is that we typically just speak about the extreme and being overweight or obese and not always on the other side being too underway.

spk_2:   40:56
We want to be healthy. So what was so appalling about this interaction to me is the emotional impact. It hat. Yeah, there's so many different ways. You could say something to somebody. And if somebody's bm eyes high, they know it's tough. You pointed out that they know it, and as a doctor or nutritionist right there, if you want to talk to about it and what role that's funny, it

spk_1:   41:18
has to be discussed. That's the thing I think a lot of

spk_0:   41:21
said that present

spk_2:   41:23
it right exactly and hi connect with the person said. They feel empowered to stretch to take action, not a knee jerk reaction.

spk_0:   41:31
Sure, but I think you know a lot of this process is about you know, how to deliver a message in an empathic way and a caring way. You know, this is a very personal, difficult experience into Remember that when you were talking to somebody you know and not isn't the dentist. Rights is extremely personal, dealing with family building that's dealing with intimate parts of your body as

spk_1:   41:53
we're also personal looking in your mouth. But yes, I do agree with you that it is quite

spk_2:   42:03
personal. It iss and it really touches you to your core Yeah, and that's what happened. So we go back to the communication piece, it's listening and being able to hear what the other person is setting on both ends on this impacts friendships. Some people stop being friends with people because they feel like they're just not listening them for understanding what's going on. Some people choose not to share anything with their closest friends because they don't want to talk about it or they want to talk, but they don't want to go with the other person has to

spk_0:   42:31
say, Well, I always say, You know, you have to set something up for success, and you have to communicate to them. What you need

spk_1:   42:38
is S O couldn't always know that you usually d'oh others how you would want, right.

spk_0:   42:43
And you have to tell us in on, you know, Listen, I'm gonna tell you this, and then I need you to text me every day to check in. I need you to ask me consistently how I'm doing or you say, I'm gonna tell you this, but then I don't ever want to talk about it. And so we can only talk about it when I bring it up. Otherwise, please don't ask. I will tell you there's something to say. I think it's important to communicate to somebody what you need. Everyone needs different things. That's why I always tell patients, you know, you just set other people for success so that they can support

spk_2:   43:10
you. Fabulous. How does that work with devoted people? Come back and tell you when you come back and see those are the people who they're saying no to respond in that way?

spk_0:   43:21
Oh, yeah. And you know, I think the first step is you know, first you have to do the work yourself to figure out what do I need? You know, of course, to recognize it's always changing. You know, just tell people this is a dynamic process. What you need today, what you need to speak might be different than what you need next week, and that's okay,

spk_2:   43:38
Great. And that's how we all are. Regardless of the situation, it could be dynamic, but this is just very intense and very consume me. So with communication, the interesting part of some people don't want to talk about what they're going through till after they go through it. On Dhe when it comes to what you were saying in terms of donor egg and talking about it with people coming forward, you know, I do believe it's a child's right to know. First, I'm a strong believer in that component in it. It travels on that, and five funerals go around telling everybody everything. His three year old four year old died. They tell everybody everything. So you have to be sure that you prepare the people who you're in that family circle to be comfortable also, and being able to share information and retrieve the information that they're being told and that I find it sometimes a little bit challenging for people. And that's why I think it would be nice if some people will come forward, because Donna extends to be the hardest one for people to deal with that I'm working with surrogacy. It's in the past. The bugler doing it could go to a surrogate for different reasons, and some of them because they physically can't carry a child and some because they don't have the time to hear a child. Two different ways of looking at it, especially for some of the agencies perspectives. Some of the agencies will not take celebrities. They won't take CEOs of companies because they feels if you don't have the time to carry the child and how you know the time to raise the child they wanted to people of medical needs. Other people said this person could be a fabulous parent and or for this child, everything. And there's no reason not to happen. Used to Stargate. But it is out there donor. It is not

spk_0:   45:22
sure thanks for. And I think, you know they talk about in this podcast. You know, big thing that I, you know, that are strongly that is changing the dialogue, getting us out of the public, changing instead of talking about it more so where it isn't so fabulous to have you on. I feel we could talk all day there.

spk_2:   45:36
Thank you so much. I hope that the information is helpful for people

spk_0:   45:41
will be like the entire pack by asking you to tell us the gratitude something you were grateful for.

spk_2:   45:49
Well, I'm thankful for the two. You inviting me here today, to be honest with you, It's so you know, interesting to be on the other side, being asked questions. So I'm very grateful for that. You know, the question what it is that you would talk about, but people have been very easy. So I am here, Marina.

spk_0:   46:09
Uh, well, I feel like every time, gratitude, But, you know, I was so grateful to get to know you Another caring, compassionate and perfect person in the field. You know, clear your patients are so lucky to have you not only your wealth of knowledge, but I could just tell him Nurture. And you are so is so grateful to you. And they're ever bringing worry on today. Thank you.

spk_2:   46:29
Thank you. Thank you.

spk_1:   46:31
Oh, on Lori similar vein as well. I'm very grateful for our mutual friend Miriam for introducing us because you have been a constant in my life recently. And just like you, I I'm so thrilled to have been on your podcast. Such a huge honor. I love listening to it, and really, And I'm proud of you and Neil as a friend. I'm so proud of you for what you've accomplished. What you will be competing with your book and your podcast is well, I know from today that our listeners are gonna get so much from this. Thank

spk_2:   47:06
you. Thank you. Those language. Thank

spk_1:   47:08
you so much for listening today. And always remember, practice gratitude. Give a little love to someone else and yourself. And remember, you are not alone. Find us on Instagram at fertility. Underscore forward. And if you're looking for more support, visit us at www dot r m a n y dot com and tune in next week for more fertility forward.