Fertility Forward
Fertility Forward
Ep 68: Normalizing Third-Party Reproduction and Adoption with Lori Metz, LCSW, CCM, BC-TMH
Every child will eventually ask the question, “Where do babies come from?” Your answer will have a lasting impact on the way they think about what it means to be part of a family, especially if they were adopted or conceived with a donated sperm or egg, also known as third-party reproduction. Today’s guest believes that compassion, love, and honesty are critical in helping families come to greater acceptance, understanding, and celebration of their journey with third-party family building. Lori Metz is a psychotherapist, licensed clinical social worker, certified case manager, and a Board Certified TeleMental Health Provider, as well as an author and the host of the LIFE Podcast. Lori specializes in infertility and works with individuals, couples, and groups to identify what might be interfering with their ability to move forward in achieving what they want. In this episode, Lori shares some of the exciting projects she has been working on, including her recent title, I Dreamed of You: The Story of an Egg Donor Baby, and the petition she has created to normalize third-party family building in healthcare. Tuning in, you’ll learn why this initiative is essential, the emotional impact it will have on those who have built their families using this option, and how to advocate for yourself and your family, as well as a whole lot more! We hope you’ll join us.
Key Points From This Episode:
- Lori shares the process of writing her book and the topics she has addressed in it.
- The secrecy often associated with donor-assisted reproduction and Lori’s advice for parents.
- The three paths of a donor-conceived fertility journey: mother’s, father’s, and child's.
- Why Lori believes that every case is unique; there is no one-size-fits-all solution.
- Empowering parents with the understanding that they bring children into the world with love as the starting point of normalizing third-party reproduction.
- Understanding the important differences between secrecy and privacy.
- Hear about the petition Lori created to normalize third-party family building in healthcare.
- The impact that this initiative will have on families who have chosen third-party reproduction.
- Emphasizing the importance of listening to the needs of patients.
- Why infertility is such an important issue and of the isolation many people feel.
- Lori encourages anyone going through donor-assisted reproduction to write their story.
- Hear why Lori believes that DNA does not make a family.
- Gratitudes to close the show: Lori shares why she is grateful for Rena and Dara.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Hi everyone. We are Rena and Dara, and welcome to fertility forward. We are part of the wellness team at RMA of New York, a fertility clinic affiliated with Mount Sinai hospital in New York city. Our fertility forward podcast brings together advice from medical, mental health specialists experts.
Speaker 2:So it's been about a year that we've had Lori mass on our podcast, and we are thrilled to have her back on just as a reminder to our listeners. She is a psychotherapist and LCSW, a certified case manager, and a board certified in elemental health. She specializes in fertility and works with both individuals, couples group, and also has held some workshops, which I've actually been involved in. And she's also a host of her own podcast called insights, fertility experiences. And today we have her on to share with us a couple of big things that she's been working on. Number one, fabulous book, which I have a copy of the story of an egg donor baby. And she is also here to discuss a new initiative that she is working towards to normalize third-party reproduction and adoption. And she is here to tell us about some of the events regarding that. Thanks for coming back on. I really appreciate it is phenomenal information to people. So the both of you are just doing a fabulous, fabulous job on it. I wrote a book and it is so beautiful. I had the most wonderful illustrator. She was fabulous to work with, easy to work with in terms of my ideas for accepted. She had no pride and ownership necessarily, even though she just was so open and receptive to hearing what I kind of envisioned. And I love that about it. And the book there's somebody who you both know acupuncturist. And another podcast I mentioned, I met her on the street corner and we just started chatting one day and then she started referring fertility patients to me. And so I started working with patients and it was such a wonderful experience. And my practice has really grown that must've been 10, 11 years ago. It was a while ago at this point. And so everything I've done is come out of my practice. So I work with individuals, couples, groups. So do workshops, do all of these things. And it's all related to fertility in that segment has automatic there. So one of the things that I've noticed when it comes to third party reproduction, which would be anything related to a donor sperm donor embryo, or even we could say talking about surrogacy, and we can talk about adoption is that many times there's a lot of feelings associated with the process and they're valid. Let's be honest, right? If you're not using your own DNA, there's a lot of feelings associated with that when it comes to raising your child or there's distinctions between surrogacy, adoption and donor, which are obvious to people using the donor. Sometimes you don't know carrying your child. People know that you're not pregnant and then you had a child. And if you adopt and they know when you've adapted, but all journeys are things where people should feel very normal about how they were conceived. And there's so many different ways feeds today and want to make sure that people are comfortable with it. So one of the things I do in my support group, I say, ask women the specifically, ask women, write a story to the baby babies in the belly. And I do that to allow them to start the process of telling their story and becoming more comfortable with their story. It's hard. It's a hard thing to do. Both of you can imagine that YouTube donor conception at any level. So anyway, I feel like I'm talking so much so in trying to help them and write the story, I wound up writing a story and that's how my book came to me. And so in the front of the book, it tells the story of we need to have a child and then not being able to have one and then looking around and trying to figure out how to have fun. And most people on fertility journeys know that there's a lot of looking and stretching. It doesn't have to have a child. And a lot of people get involved. Parents, friends, aunts, uncles, depending on how many people you want to tell and whether or not we want to keep this a secret private. As we go down the fertility journey, we find that sometimes what we used to want to tell them is that if we decide, we want to keep a little private for a variety of reasons, people don't know what to say to us. We don't want anything. You know, when it becomes too serious, a lot of reasons start to nail into those things. And so this book was a way to allow people to express themselves. And in the back of the book, there's space for people to write a little note to their little on that, why they didn't do them so they can kind of mirror that. It just takes the mother through the process to read the story to the baby. Initially it was just to help the people in my groups to write their own story. Wow, that's beautiful. And I think it's a great way to help start that conversation. Yeah, it does help start the conversation. And there's a lot of books out there, not just mine and the more, the better, you know, I don't see this as competition. I see this as extra tools to give people because everybody likes a different story and everybody likes different pictures. And I try and encourage people also to write their own little story to their child and read that or tell that story every night, if they can. And if they want to, there are some people who don't want to tell their children and that's their right, and that's their prerogative. And there's huge variety of reasons why people don't want to share that with their, with their children. Mostly I think religious communities don't want to share it for a lot of different reasons in terms of beliefs and culture and acceptance. But by and large, the trend today is to share it. And you're seeing that all over social media, you're seeing it with donor conceived children coming out. The interesting thing though, is, you know, when we talk about donor conception, when we look at a heterosexual couple, the assume that is their DNA. When we look at any other type of a couple, we assume that it's not going to say, I want to talk about that. A little more is sort of the secrecy that can be involved and whether or not to tell a tale, because I know that's something patients often ask about. They don't know what to do. Should I tell them when should I tell them, should I tell friends and family first? What are sort of your recommendations on that? I don't have any hard and fast recommendations, anything, you know, me, you know, that's, my style is so specific to the person and to their social support system. So there is no quote unquote right or wrong here. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, doctors were telling people not to tell their children. There was no need. Life has changed drastically today. People are saying, tell your children, you know, there's DNA tests out there that people are going to take. There's so much on social media, that it takes a lot for that person whose DNA is not part of that child to tell the story and to accept it. What I like to talk to people about, but it comes to this part of this process is that I love to tell this story actually, of chase, who said to me, who has done it to see and carry through traditional services. And he said, all the kids and he was in his twenties, actually he's when all the kids were saying, my parents never wanted meeting. One thing he knew is how much he wanted. And he never, he never doubted how much he was wanted because he knew what they went through to have him. And you find very often that people who might be interested in a donor or not interested in their donor as their parent, they might be more interested in just the DNA, the connection between the mother and the child and the father and the child is so strong. It's really unbreakable in most situations. So in terms of telling the child, that's really up to the parent, what science is telling us is that the longer you wait, if they find out from somebody else, then that could create some feelings in the family, because then they'll start to wonder what else maybe they haven't been told, and this is part of their identity. So when you're going through a fertility journey, but it's donor conceived, there's three paths going on here. There's the path of the mother. If we're using donor a, there's an her journey. There's a path of the father. If it's his firm and then there's a path of the child and they're all different, they're all experiencing this very differently. And we don't want to confuse the mothers and the fathers with the child. So if we can keep that a clear separation, I think it's a very healthy way for the child to be able to embrace how they were conceived. And that way the parents can work out their feelings associated with it. And I think it always stings a little bit at certain points in life. If somebody has a drone, it can see child. But sometimes I think that the love and the feelings that somebody has for their children overtakes it tremendously. I've had people tell me that they're so grateful for the donor, that this child would not be here without the donor. But what I like to point out is that this child would not be here without them because they picked the time they pick the day they pick the partner and they pick the whole process and they're carrying the child in their room. And with that, I know epigenetic system has thought us as a constellation prize, it is not really a constellation prize. What it is, is a science saying that there is some DNA. So there's a long-winded answer to tell you that. I think everybody has to feel their own comfort zone in how they approach telling their child. I think that's really important. Science has shifted. The philosophy has shifted. The other piece that it's shown right now is that children who find out about it, find out a little bit more about the birds and the bees, so to speak at a younger age, because they've learned that they were done a deceived. And my favorite story, I hope I didn't tell you this story before was a child who was in nursery school or first grade, whatever it was. Parents told them they were donate conceive, and they were so excited. The next day show in town, the teacher said, who has something for show in town? They raised their hand. And they said, well, this story about being conceived through donor conception. So those parents finding the story. So in terms of telling family and friends, I think that's entirely your prerogative. I think when she tell your child, you may want to tell your, your close nuclear kind of circle so that their reaction is not one of surprise, that I have people who are religious, who may tell their family and they not, who are concerned because somebody, I know his father was very involved in the church and is afraid that he won't accept it. The child's now four years old. And I don't know, they're telling the child. So I'm thinking that the father is going to find out that math either. But at this point in time that hasn't been shared by the parent or by the child of the grandfather, the second TC, the manager said, no, not at all. And I, I liked a lot with mother father, you know, and I think that's a really great observation to say, or you're in a, in a couple where it's one or the other parent. So that experience is very different, right? And I think that's really important to note, you know, you work with your patients on how to look at the loss with that in each couple of experience there, because it is really different. It's really different. And the part that I think is for the man, because we don't talk about the man often or not. There's between 30 and 60,000 sperm donations, maybe a year. I mean, that's huge luminous. So if we talk about the man, a lot of men will not talk about this. Some will, but most will not. And it's how does the man then come to terms with, and feel comfortable with it? Because they don't really want him to push the feelings down. We want to feel comfortable. So I'm working with one couple where they hadn't told the children, the children were already, how old are they? They're in probably 12 and 10. It was awhile ago, 12 and 10 right around their children. Didn't know parents got divorced. So now the father's feeling very isolated because it's not his DNA until the children. There's so many dynamics that go on there, but he is the children's father. And the mother will say, he is the father of the children. It's just, how do you then begin to tell the children and make them comfortable? But you can, you can just say, we want to wait. You old enough to understand. That's a fine answer to tell somebody, I don't know if they're going to start to do DNA testing in schools. I'm not sure where we're going in the world, but what I am sure of is that we need people to feel as if any type of conception is normal. And that's where to do that, I think is to empower the parents and understanding that they bring these children into the world with love. And when we talk about secrecy and privacy, just to go back to what you were talking about, or you were saying to expand on a little bit secret, has this connotation to it, right. Kind of a little sinister we're intention of telling people things, because maybe it would be something that would be more of a class-A or I don't know, like when you think of the word secret, what do you think of think a secret implies that there's something to hide, which that is negative. There's nothing negative or wrong, or about being conceived via donor or having a donor, your story. Absolutely. I love that. You said it that way. You couldn't put it any better. Thank you. And so privacy really just expands on that. It labels it. It's saying that we're allowed to keep things private and there's nothing wrong with privacy and people start to transition to that. I don't know. Have you noticed that in your practice that people transition to that as they go down a fertility journey that I think as they go on, they decide what they want to share and what they want because they realize sharing everything with everyone just becomes too much noise. And it's not that they're ashamed of that. It's just, they realize that they tell everyone, then they have to kind of report everything. And it just becomes a little too much and very hard to stay present really hard, to stay present such a beautiful way to put it. It also can elicit a lot of feelings related to what they're saying and how they're saying it. And if they're being judgmental and nobody really needs to go through that when they're grieving their own loss of having to use donor conception. I do find though on the other side of it, which is so hard to see while you're in it, that once these children are born, the parents are so in love with the children and the children are in love with the parents. And there's really a lovely, lovely life that goes on and goes ahead of it. So I have been trying for the last, I don't know, a couple of years, not like the full intention now with lung tension, trying to normalize this process for people, because I have found that so many parents struggle with telling the doctor or telling the child or how they're looked at in society. And it breaks my heart. To be honest with you, that people have to go through this and the journey when every conception should be normal. And I'm sorry if I'm repeating that, but that is really the truth. And so I find that people I've worked with will not tell their pediatrician. If the children were born donor conception, they will forget to tell them the doctors and the nurses will not ask when children go for college applications, they ask for family history, it says, mother, father, sibling, other people, or not others, everybody's conceived a certain way, see the same way it takes from, and that's it. Bottom line. We all can see that way. So what's the difference how exactly that process took place. If we can start to add this and normalize the process, I think at least in the medical intake, then we can start the conversation. And so I've started this initiative, which I'm excited about. I think it's even bigger than I imagined, but that I think we can do it because it's almost like a light bulb has gone off in people's heads when I mention it. And we've done a series of Instagram lives the last five weeks or so on it. Can you hold on to, who's an actress. Who's incredible. She's just phenomenal. I can't even begin to tell you spokesperson and advocate for donor conception. I reached out to her to tell her about it and she actually wants to lend her voice to this. And so that was a huge, huge win for me because then I felt like I had the support there. And Jay wonder woman who is a huge advocate also has been involved and resolve is involved right now in a webinar that we're doing. And Dr.[inaudible] is involved in it. And a couple of other people, we have a doctor who works with transgender and we have a donor conception. He'll be at the first webinar, which will be next Thursday. The goal here is to add it to intake. Why? Because we need to be able to be sure that people get the best medical care and feel as if they could be comfortable and not embarrassed about how they're going to see. So it will enhance both the physical and mental health of the patient. There's a place to put it. So when it says mother, father sibling, it can say donor, and it can say adoption. It fills in the picture right off the bat. And now not only does it fill in the picture for the person completing the form, but it fills in the picture for those who have no idea about different kinds of conception, because now they see it on the form. So now there's a conversation, oh, it's there, it's out there. It'll start to normalize it. And so that's how I felt I wanted to start this conversation. I also worked in health insurance for many years and I've been involved in electronic medical record. So I know it's only two indices that need to be changed. And so it shouldn't be hard to do. I think what happened is that they sent the medical records down and it just wasn't thought of at the time. And now it's just a matter of adding it. Yeah. And I think it's similar to adding, you know, the gender. That's hopefully just letting people own who they are and be more comfortable with who they are instead of sitting there, you know, staring blankly like this doesn't fit me. I don't know what to do. There's nothing that works for me. So I love that. I know I was talking to this mom and her kid was filling out an application for college and he came over. He's like, yeah, you're still excited when you're filling out your college applications. It may not have phased him, honestly, but he had to put in other and she said, what should I write? And she said, just write other adopted. It's got two loving parents were crazy about him. Why couldn't you just check off adopted? And then it'd be an honor. I love that you're doing initiative that I think will hopefully help people just feel so much better. You know, I think people that are conceived via donor, nothing to hide. And so that will hopefully help to normalize it in a more comprehensive picture of somebody. Absolutely. I really, I really repeat it back. Cause I do believe that we have a petition petition and anybody wants to sign it. It's gone change that, or it gets closed on normalizing third party reproduction and adoption. And it's also on my Instagram link page or is that the LinkedIn on Instagram? It's also on that. And so the goal here is to get enough signatures and bring it to, and then have people follow up in terms of maybe letter writing and just grass roots, telling the doctors start to say, why don't you add this to the form, let's have this conversation and let's just try and get this started. So the book and this initiative kind of came out of my practice because the goal here is for people to have questions answered and to feel good about themselves and to feel good about how they can see their child and how that child is conceived and how that child is raised. It's wonderful that you're listening to your patient and trying to help them meet their needs. You do the same thing. I mean, I know you do. I know both of you do because I know that you have you, we have to listen. I feel very lucky to be able to have been able to take these steps in response to what they're presenting. I feel like later in life, I heard the term spitting out instead of fitting in. And it wasn't until really, you know, my thirties, I realized like I don't really fit. And I sit out and I was able to fully embrace that, raising my daughter. I just, I never her to feel how I felt like never really fitting in and on the fringe, whatever, having that impact again. So I hope that adding this stuff will help people embrace sitting out. You know, there's no one size fits all for humans. We're all different and unique and individual. And that's what makes us beautiful. And people fit into box. As you know, I think it's so limiting. So I just love that you're doing that. And hopefully this will really help people be able to embrace being unique and different and be proud of that. And I'm sorry that you felt that way growing up, nobody deserves to feel that way because it's, it's not a comfortable feeling. What I'm hoping is that we don't look at it as not normal. We just look at it as another. That's my story. And also it's brought you to where you are today and everybody's journey is really great. Sometimes we need a little perspective to see that I said that to a couple, the other day, while we were talking, I said, just need to take a breath. I hadn't used my like favorite term with them. Right. And I had said, we just need to take a beat and you hadn't said that to them yet. Oh my goodness. What was I thinking? And also I wanted to give a shout out a plug. I believe you're on your Instagram live. We are having one of our fellow doctors at RMA meet with you, I believe. Is it, is it in the coming week? Yes, it is. It is Thursday. Dr. T Jackson bay will be on, she's actually going to be on a podcast also that I did, which should be coming out shortly. And we talked about diversity. Oh yeah. Yeah. She was great. So we had a whole conversation about diversity. Um, and that podcast is going to be coming out shortly and the Instagram live is going to be on this coming Thursday and it will be on normalizing third party reproduction and adoption. And she just was so embracing of the idea and the topic. So, um, I'm really grateful for that. And I'm hoping that she'll continue to be really involved. Yes. I live in worlds collide. Yes. You have to make them collapse on every level it's important. And fertility is a really important issue because people feel so alone and so isolated. So when we can do that, you know, and you do that all day long at work. I know you do cause I know your patients love you. I talk to them. I hear from them. I think that we have to have them collide because that way there's not that isolation and those feelings, that feeling of being alone. And I know, you know, Dara and I frequently talk about how grateful we are to be in this space and meet other like-minded professionals to really care who I think for the three of us, I can certainly speak to this. Isn't just a job, but it's our career. And we really care. And I think something that so many people, you know, I really agree. And I also find with a lot of the healthcare professionals. So say you and dad, I find it's not the books. It's not a competition. It's just, it's a coming together that you see in this field. Let's see how we can all work together to help as many people as we can because everybody has a different shoe size and everybody needs something to refer to and call upon. I think for anybody out there really who is conceiving or considering conceiving through donor conception, whether it be, you know, sperm or your embryo or using a surrogate, I really encourage you to please write your story. And with adoption also, it's a different story, but write your story and own it. Feel good about it and recognize that you are traveling down a path that is filled with love. And even though you think, well, why did I have to struggle? You just know how committed you are to raising his family. And that in itself is just a wonder and enjoy. And it's privileged to be able to meet everybody who goes through this. So write your story, own it, feel good about it. And then when you feel good about it and you tell your, your child and it they'll feel good about it too. I love that. It's exactly that. It's how you write the dialogue. You know, you tell your child, you are conceived with the love and pride and work so hard for you. That's what they know. You know, dialogue, you can write. If you tell a child like you weren't wanted and you were a mistake and that's what they'll know, and that doesn't feel good. So I think we are in control of that dialogue and we can write such beautiful stories and help children know they were loved and wanted and, and secure. And so that's very much in our control. And I know patients often struggle with worrying. Their kids don't feel connected, but just show them love. That's children respond to what the DNA is not what makes a mother or a father builds the house. It does not create a home. It doesn't create that love and that warm. And when you see children who are donor conceived, if you happen to know that they are, you don't see anything different than a very loving, connected child to the parent, have you had this? I've had people say to me that they would never ever give the child back. They love the child. They adore the child that was donor conceived. They're grateful for the donor. And they wouldn't really change a thing. It was a child they were meant to have and they never looked back. Yeah. And that's really the overarching feeling that I have. There's a lot of books out there. There's a lot of research out there on donor conception and the journey in the past that people take. I do find that. I know I mentioned this before. I do find this interesting now that when it comes to him or central community, this is a challenging path, more so than the LGBT plus community. But I think for hetero couples, it's not usually anyone's vision or plan that they need a donor. So you it's a shock, right. Whereas if you are in an LGBTQ plus couple, then you know, for one side, whether it's from our egg, you'll need a donor. So you've at least planned for that. And so the other piece of that thousand percent, the other piece of that, too, that I would add is that society doesn't expect you when you're a heterosexual, couple parents don't expect you to have to use a donor conception. I think society doesn't even expect you to have to need fertility treatments. We're like, we're just so behind in the expectations of then you know, much less. Yeah, that's true. It's hard to wrap my brain around that sometimes because you know, you get so immersed in the fertility world, right? That means everybody knows somebody who's struggling everywhere. I go, people ask me what I do. I get a story about a struggle or the person. Sure. But you know, remember that's our world too. And it's, it's weird when I go kind of outside our world, I'm always like, oh, you don't know what fertility treatments are. What? Cause we're so used to it. We agree that, you know, day in, day out, but it still needs to catch up. Yeah. And that's why we're having these discussions. We're trying to normalize, empowering people to have that knowledge and get the support and get it out there. And Laurie, you're doing that pretty remarkable. I think the two of you, I think what you've both done with this podcast with RNA is remarkable because to be able to get a large institution to do with the two of you are doing is phenomenal. It's not easy to say it's moving out so mutual admiration, but truly it's a huge, a huge thing that you're doing well, thank you so much for coming on. I always love talking to you. We always love these sessions. I feel like we could talk for hours if I said good vibes and positivity. I think when the three of us are together. So thank you so much for taking the time, sharing your voice after this. I'm definitely going to go to your Instagram and click over to the petition and sign it, the LinkedIn profile thing. Right, right. Sessions of everyone saying, so do you want to go first almost. I'm going to say what I said last time that I'm so grateful for the two of you. I really am. It's just, I think I get tears in my eyes, but you know, you've done such remarkable work and just like, dare, I don't see it. But getting to know you better has been just district joy and I'm so grateful for being able to work in this. I really am. It means the world to me. So I'm very grateful for that. I'm going to say I'm grateful for Dara because Dara introduced me to Lori and connected us. And you know, I'm so grateful to have both of these and Laurie and I just, because they're both is I got my LLC over a year ago and Laurie was just so helpful and all these questions about it and I'm so nervous and whatever she was so nice and giving women, supporting women. So I'm really, really, truly grateful for that. I love having such amazing colleagues to reach out to will just help. I love, I love, I really do. I really do. So. It's funny enough. I was going to say something similar. I was grateful for connecting with Laura yesterday. I hadn't spoken to her back and forth a little bit, but it was just nice to hear from her yesterday. And one of the most surprising things is I got the most beautiful voice message from Rina yesterday morning that I picked up that brightened my day. And it was just like, you're on my mind. I'm thinking, well, this has been so nice and so grateful to get all this together and have good vibe, lots of virtual hugs and head over. We'll post everything on our show notes.
Speaker 1:And thank you for tuning in. Thank you so much for listening today and always remember practice gratitude. And remember you are not alone. Find us on Instagram at fertility underscore forward. And if you're looking for more support@wwwdotrmaandy.com and tune in next week,
Speaker 3:[inaudible].