Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Episode 7: Torture Tactics, How Coercive Control is Similar to Torture in its Methods and Impact on Victims

February 06, 2020 Ruth Stearns Mandel & David Mandel
Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel
Episode 7: Torture Tactics, How Coercive Control is Similar to Torture in its Methods and Impact on Victims
Show Notes Transcript

In this Episode of "Partnered with a Survivor," Ruth & David speak about the common and normal trauma responses of victims and survivors and how those responses can be used against them by perpetrators and systems charged with safety. Ruth discusses more in depth particular responses to abuse which she experienced and witnessed growing up with over 55 other people in an abusive cult. They talk about how perpetrators use trauma responses to create a culture of fear around disclosure, how professionals turn normal and natural self protective strategies into pathology and how that is used against victims in courts and social services. She also discusses her 'A-ha' moment when she began to study about the Kubark Interrogation Methods used by the military in SERE training for the United States' Special Forces. Ruth discusses how domestic abuse and child abuse create a similar internal response as seen in torture victims to the perpetrator or to anyone who uses threats or force to coerce victims into safety. David gives his practice tips for how to view trauma and torture responses not as a deficit, but as a sign of protection and even strength. He speaks about where systems and workers got this right and where they did not. Specific language, strategies and tools are given in this podcast for greater and more effective partnering which honors and acknowledges trauma responses as being a normal physiological response to extended alarm and harm. 

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Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Speaker 1: [00:00:01] OK, we are back,  [00:00:01][0.8]

Speaker 2: [00:00:02] we're back again. Again, here we are.  [00:00:04][1.9]

Speaker 1: [00:00:04] Keep coming  [00:00:04][0.2]

Speaker 2: [00:00:05] back again. Okay. We're on the couch and the dog is laying next to us.  [00:00:08][3.6]

Speaker 1: [00:00:09] Hopefully, he doesn't whine. So this is episode seven of Partnered with the Survivor. And this episode is going to be more focused on trauma responses of victims and how that challenges systems or how systems respond poorly or pathologize those trauma responses and punish survivors and victims for normal physiological responses to harm.  [00:00:40][31.4]

Speaker 2: [00:00:41] Right. And and I think we'll also be exploring how we can get better, how systems can get better at those responses. And and. Absolutely. And what they can do differently. And and so this is a big topic. And and before we dove into it, just a reminder. I'm David Mandel, executive director of the Safe and Together Institute.  [00:01:02][21.3]

Speaker 1: [00:01:03] And I'm Ruth Stern's Mandel and I'm the e-learning manager and the communications manager.  [00:01:08][4.7]

Speaker 2: [00:01:09] And in this podcast is around carving out space to discuss intimate and professional issues related to domestic abuse and how to make the world a better place. Does that seem like an arrogant or sort of too big to know, you know, a big issue? I think  [00:01:27][18.8]

Speaker 1: [00:01:28] all of us seem concerned about  [00:01:29][1.3]

Speaker 2: [00:01:29] that. You know, and and we're taking our personal conversations that Ruth and I have on a daily basis and bringing them into this sphere. So it may be useful to other people and we have some fun doing it and and we're getting great comments back from all over the world. I don't know if you can share any of it, like off the top of your head.  [00:01:51][21.6]

Speaker 1: [00:01:51] I have asked if I can share some of them, so I'm going to wait until I receive permission. Okay? So, so, so diving into the topic, I often and the and the podcast title speaks for itself, partnered with a survivor. I am not ever hesitant to disclose that I was raised in complex child abuse and witnessed a lot of interpersonal domestic violence, but it was a little bit different than than what a lot of people experienced because it was in the context of a commune of a cult. And so there were multiple perpetrators. There were multiple victims and there was a lot of collusion going on. So it's kind of like a little petri dish, right?  [00:02:36][45.0]

Speaker 2: [00:02:37] Hello, environment with multiple elements going on the same time? Yeah.  [00:02:42][4.2]

Speaker 1: [00:02:42] So so I really was able to to to learn how to navigate different people's expressions of violence, right? Different people's expressions, of course, of control of of collusion, of shut down or whatever it was that their response was right. And and in disclosing when I went to what I want to say is is that victims are always going to feel hesitant, insecure on shaky ground to disclose and retract the disclosure and retract when they haven't yet achieved a sense of safety. And they don't trust that the person who is working with them is operating from a place that can provide them safety or is or is working with good intent. Right. OK. Right. And that's just basic human operating manual. And and and I'm going to talk about a little bit more in detail some of my experiences growing up, you know, so very mindful that this could be traumatic content for for some people, but hopeful that in a way that speaking about it with specificity will allow for people to attach to the experience of victims and survivors and in a way that allows for them to understand how to work better with them. Right. But on the other side of that is statistically, we know that we're speaking to a lot of victims and survivors  [00:04:16][93.8]

Speaker 2: [00:04:17] in an audience. You're talking about the professional aspect of our audience, right?  [00:04:20][3.6]

Speaker 1: [00:04:21] Professional and  [00:04:21][0.6]

Speaker 2: [00:04:21] nonprofit. Exactly. So we're speaking. Yeah. And what I want to say is that Ruth's experience is going to hold both specific and unique qualities and universal qualities. And you know, and you may see yourself in it and your experiences may be different, and we invite people to send us comments or share their experience. Right? You know, and to to to take care of yourself. You know, if you listen this podcast and it touches you, you know, figure out who your your allies are and who you can lean on and who you can talk to and. Where you can get support, so just it's  [00:05:02][41.0]

Speaker 1: [00:05:03] yeah, and there's another piece to that, yeah. And that is is that as we go through the process or process process, I'm drinking my Scottish tea that, you know, that's not quite. I don't have the Scottish accent.  [00:05:15][11.7]

Speaker 2: [00:05:15] You don't. You don't.  [00:05:17][1.2]

Speaker 1: [00:05:17] But but as you go through this process of learning being gentle and kind with yourself for the places that you did not know how to respond, that perhaps you were existing in a culture where the responses were adversarial or victim blaming, right? And when we learn better, when we learn better tools, we often use better tools.  [00:05:48][30.5]

Speaker 2: [00:05:49] Kate, before you dove in, can I say one more thing about this, about sort of the the, I say, the personal nature of this. But but and and who the audience might be. But you also may be somebody who loves and cares about somebody who's been abused and they may be your partner or they they may be a child, they may be a friend. And and these episodes are for you as well. Very much so because I think we're trying to open a door to better partnering. And and for those of you who love somebody, we've had people come to us and say that training with the Safe and Together Institute is actually help them be better allies to a loved one. So not just better allies in a in a in a in a professional setting, but in a in a personal setting. So these are podcasts that you may want to share with other people who are supporting or loving somebody who's been abused or in an abusive situation. And it's it's for me, there's there. There's no place for pity. And if that makes sense, you  [00:07:01][71.4]

Speaker 1: [00:07:01] know, I don't know, say more about  [00:07:02][1.3]

Speaker 2: [00:07:03] that, but there's no place for pity. I mean, pity is is I think sometimes people are like, Well, I feel bad for that person. I think there's a there's a pity and empathy. I think there's a there's a difference between pity, sometimes as a defense against really trying to understand, Oh,  [00:07:19][16.3]

Speaker 1: [00:07:19] I avoid people that do pity.  [00:07:20][1.1]

Speaker 2: [00:07:21] Right? Yeah. But I mean by that, you know, sort of that sort of it's it's sort of, oh, that poor thing or she's in such a hard circumstance or he's in such a hard circumstance. And I think that that, you know, honesty, support clarity, you know, sort of curiosity. Mm hmm. You know, all these things are really valuable things to bring to those relationships. Right? And so anyway, there's more we could say. That's a whole other conversation, actually in other podcasts about sort of being allies as family members. Right. And that may come up in this. But just, you know, just wanted to say that the audience for this is also those people who love and support and are partnered with somebody. Mm hmm. In those circumstances?  [00:08:08][47.0]

Speaker 1: [00:08:09] Yeah. And then there's the professional side where, you know, I'm forty six years old. I have put I put myself in counseling at the age of 19, 18 or 19. I can't remember and knew that I needed help because of I was starting to experience as I separated from my family. The the panic attacks, the, you know, the trauma responses from from abuse I had, I had distanced myself from the situation and so was really able to start processing. And actually, that's a really important piece for workers to know. And that is that while somebody is still in the active stance of being threatened in alarm, they really can't process their their trauma right. They're still in danger. And the body actually and the limbic system right will respond in a very particular way. And you had said something the other day I was describing to you a video that I had watched about a perpetrator and a survivor, and she had brought her dog to the vet clinic after he had abused her right and raped her for days and kicked the dog and broke its rib. And. And he was willing to take the dog to the hospital, but not her right. And she had to really hold herself together to sign the paperwork. And he was sitting there with a gun under his shirt, and she was able to convey a message to the people at the clinic that she was in danger and that he had a gun. And and as soon as the police came and arrested her, that's when her fall and total collapse happened. And I said, I know that. So incredibly well, right, where as a victim. Anything that is going to further threaten you with it, that person at the desk had stood up and started yelling at him. Right. She would have had a completely different response. That's right, because she was pushing her adrenaline down into her body so that she could focus. And this is actually, you know, a respected technique in martial arts. But as with victims, people can perceive that sort of flinty cold put together, you know, hard ness as a deficit when it's not  [00:10:41][152.1]

Speaker 2: [00:10:42] right, and especially if it's in the context of somebody, a woman usually being expected to be a good parent. Right. Then she can even be labeled on top of that being disconnected, having attachment issues with her children. That's right. Even when she knows that if I show affection or I engage in certain ways with the children, it could put me or the kids in greater and greater danger. So I have to very much manage my relationship with my own  [00:11:05][23.5]

Speaker 1: [00:11:05] children to become cold and distant, particularly if he abuses the children because I am the focus of his wants and desires. That's right. That's very so right. So, so anyway, so we had we had discussed that. In the course of discussing that, I remembered the first time that I realized what my responses were about and that was. I had dated the captain of the Special Forces for Central America while I was living down there, and he had gone through the sere school, which is the search escape survival. I think actually, yeah, it's it's a survival skill, but they actively torture, right? They use torture methods right on these soldiers in order to train them into that exact place, by the way. Right. That that survivor at that victim found, which is a level of focus and clarity and complete calm soldiers train for years. And I really want you to hear that soldiers train for years to obtain that state. And victims can find it in order to preserve themselves in their children. And living in that place is an act of incredible human courage and bravery. It is not a deficit, right? And I really want the professionals and the victims out there to hear that. And so I went and I started to study the tactics that he had described, right? And they were tactics which essentially up end you. You never know what's coming. Everything is unpredictable, right? You're not in control of your body. You're put in stress positions, you're placed in small, you know, metal containers and in the sun and you get hot and they beat it at intervals. They play music at night and they keep you awake, or they come into the room and they wake you up screaming and yelling at you. They drag you around and you never know when it's going to happen. And then when you're when you're totally, completely frightened and afraid, if you reach that point of terror, they say, we're going to help you, right? We're going to help. We can help you. And so this is to train soldiers to get to that place. The domestic violence victims get to all the time right. And that actually is profoundly that was profoundly moving to me, right? I looked at this person who had been professionally trained to find that place, and I was like, Oh yeah, I know I get it. So, you know, that's a really important piece. But the the the piece that I really want to grab on to. And if you're interested in studying it, there's a lot of of research that done has been done. The military has done a tremendous amount of research in the United States. We used the Cuban interrogation manual, which is basically a psi ops and and torture manual for how to operate just underneath the The Hague.  [00:14:08][182.9]

Speaker 2: [00:14:09] But you know, this is you talking about what they're actually using to guide the training as we're talking about  [00:14:14][4.2]

Speaker 1: [00:14:14] using a guide to training and understand, they really pick apart interrogation techniques that are that are used by abusers right on so many levels in so many, you know, private houses, right? And so if I were to talk about some of the the things I experienced as a child, you know, you could just take the the unpredictability. You don't know if the hand is going to punch or the hand is going to roughly love you up, right? You don't know if you're going to have to be woken in the middle of the night, right? Because there's a pony  [00:14:49][35.5]

Speaker 2: [00:14:50] ride, which is a real, which is the real thing, which is the real story. You really had that happen.  [00:14:54][3.8]

Speaker 1: [00:14:54] You don't know if you're going to be woken in the middle of the night with your legs being forced open. So, so you don't you don't know what's coming next. Right? And and that creates this this altered landscape where you now have to navigate and predict based off of information that's being given to you and patterns of behaviors that you've been able to observe as a child and your coping mechanisms really kick in. Right. And so some of the things that that we that I can say that I've experienced and I've experienced in coming into contact with other victims and survivors is is is first of all this this cycle, right? Of anger, avoidance resistance, depression, hiding rage and blame, maybe reporting and then retracting reporting and then retracting resistance resistance, right? And then disclosure and then resistance and then retracting. Right. And this infuriates people who are charged with the safety of victims because they don't understand why it's happening, right? And then the victim is blamed. Right. OK. Right. And so I just want to talk about a few of those from my perspective, but I also want to hear some of your examples as well. And I want to talk first about reporting and retraction.  [00:16:21][86.2]

Speaker 2: [00:16:22] Well, you know, it's it's I mean, I'm thinking about so much. And and one of the things I want to say is that one of the best things professionals can do in the context of of the things you're describing, which are genuinely can be frustrating for people who want to help, right? And is that the professionals need to do their own work to manage their own frustrations because you know, what I've seen is that, like you said, I've seen the other side of it in a lot of ways, which is anger directed at the survivors. And I remember I had thought about this a while training professionals. I think they retired well four years ago. So I'm talking 20 25 years ago when I first started doing training for for professionals, and I envision this person standing up actually, when they're saying, I don't know if they really were, but but in anger, saying she's lying to me about what's going on, and she's not telling me the truth about about what's happening to her. And I said to her that professional and I tried to maintain a really common neutral demeanor. I said to them. Are you angrier her than you are at him for what he's doing to her? And when I ask questions like this, I often get kind of silence back because I think it is. Somebody in that position is so far down the road of their own stuff. That's the professional term stuff, you know, that's sort of, you know, trained for years. So I can use the word stuff, you know, the down the road of the down the road of their own stuff that that that that when you ask a question like that, which is which is really asked for this curiosity, this genuine sort of engagement of is this true that people don't know what to say because it's so much sort of I think they get their gears, get stuck. They're kind of they're they're getting kind of caught in their moment and and, you know, I've done that in other places when people have been victim blaming and asked them to look at real contradictions. You know, how how can we be angrier at the survivor at the victim than we are at the perpetrator? But we see this played out over and over again. You know, we're women who are getting charged with failure to protect or are going to jail for longer than men who actually abuse the children.  [00:19:05][163.1]

Speaker 1: [00:19:06] I see, even with women who have been murdered by their partner in the media reporting, it's infuriating to me.  [00:19:12][5.9]

Speaker 2: [00:19:12] Right. So I think this just to circle back this is this encouraging people to be be curious, but also to really look for their understanding of resistance retraction, shutting down an understanding of how that person came by honorably.  [00:19:32][19.7]

Speaker 1: [00:19:33] Right. So let's so let's yeah, I want to dove into my yeah, please say again, everybody's experience is different, right? You have your own unique experience. This is just my experience of myself and others that I have worked with or encountered who were living in abuse and trying to leave it right. And that is that reporting and retraction is very much a sign that safety has not been met. Right? There may be other considerations that one needs to look at, and that is, is the perpetrator threatening their own life? Right? Is she concerned where he concerned about the welfare of that person? Is that person concerned that if arrest is the only option that systems offer him, that she will be destitute, that her children will be homeless, that financially she will be wrecked and there will be no way for her to support herself because he's been financially controlling the family.  [00:20:33][60.2]

Speaker 2: [00:20:33] Or he'll be crushed in a system that's a blunt instrument, particularly for men of color in the US or indigenous men. Or are there other populations that are overrepresented and marginalized and over criminalized that she wants safety? But but she doesn't want the cost of her community or her partner's life, given her and potentially life. You know, we, you know, for those who are not familiar in the U.S., there's been a lot of press for African-American men, particularly being killed by law enforcement and in circumstances where it isn't appropriate or deserved right. And so that's on people's minds when they're calling the police. They want safety, but they may end up with something completely different. Right?  [00:21:17][43.3]

Speaker 1: [00:21:17] So, so asking the questions about how you can help her be more safe, how you can help her achieve safety. What needs to happen in order for that to feel safe, right? What she believes her partner needs in order to be, well, right in order to be safe, may what she may need financially. What she may need emotionally is really important as a step in in letting this person know that you're a safe place to disclose to right without the need for retraction as soon as you put the the the brass knuckles on and you start to turn the clamps. And it looks like there's going to be severe action towards him or towards her, or the other considerations are not looked at and haven't been addressed. You will get retraction.  [00:22:17][59.6]

Speaker 2: [00:22:18] And I think what you're speaking to is the challenge for a lot of professionals. I say law enforcement and and child protection, particularly where their strongest mandate is around physical safety. And that's the that's the the a lot of where the focus is of those systems. And there are obviously with child protection, particularly as focus on well-being and other things like that. But but the real sharp edge of the process is around physical safety and in that professionals need to go in understanding that survivors are whole people and they have other needs that they're trying to balance off and those ways they're trying to. They don't want to just be physically safe. They want to be physically safe and have a comfortable home for their kids, in a safe home for their kids and a good school district for their kids. And they want to be safe and be able to live near their mother and they want to be safe and be connected, a support network. And that that when we judge those folks, when they say, But wait, I don't want to leave my house. I remember a case where the woman I was working with, I was working with her partner and she said, and there were low income young and and whatever statements to me was, this is the first place I've ever lived on my own as first place I've ever had furniture. I don't want to have to move out. And, you know, if I had just judged her for that as being in denial around the abuse or labeled her somehow right, I wouldn't have been able to partner with her and help her. But I needed to hear that her independence, her sense of self, her identity honestly was connected to things that we all value, which is, are we independent? Are we can we can we support ourselves? What have we achieved that that maybe other people in our family haven't achieved? And if we're not listening for those things and curious and we make those unimportant, I think we really run the risk of increasing retracts.  [00:24:14][115.8]

Speaker 1: [00:24:15] We pretend that the quality of life right and the liberties of victims is not as important as their physical safety. Right. When actually securing a quality of life and those are the things adds to their ability to to move into a place of saying right, you have to think of it as a vehicle. Right, right. If you were to tell me that you were going to that you were going to, you know, arrest my family and throw me in the foster care system, which is not what happened to me. In fact, even though the FBI visited us twice. Right. And we we had social services because my mother was on welfare. It's shocking. We were home schooled, though, so, you know, we didn't have mandatory reporters around us, right? And once we had moved from California to Kentucky, that's when all hell broke loose because we were isolated on one hundred and you  [00:25:11][56.5]

Speaker 2: [00:25:11] are and you were involved with social service.  [00:25:13][1.2]

Speaker 1: [00:25:13] Not we weren't. We were involved with. OK. But is a libertarian state. They didn't have the same protections in place as California did, right? So, so, you know, so there was less there was less impetus for them, for the main abusers to to not be escalated their behavior. Right? Let's say so. So there's one other piece of this that I was trying to hold in my mind, and that was if systems have or if the perpetrator has via systems enacted what I call abuse by systems with counter allegations, which are false. And now you have this same entity charged with investigating the perpetrator as investigating the mother who's the victim? Mm hmm. Then that is a place of contention, right? And cooperation is going to be difficult. Right. Because essentially, I'm going to paint the picture for you. Go back to the sere school. You have a person who has been living in torture, right? Systematized systematic torture, right? For years, right? And she took the risk to report it, and she knew what the consequences could be. And actually, I'm feeling I really feel this right now because I know this. And then the systems turned around and started to investigate her.  [00:26:47][94.3]

Speaker 2: [00:26:48] I can't tell you how many times when I was working on a case level on a daily basis with child welfare that I get presented with a case where somebody would come in and say to me, this mom is not telling us the truth of domestic violence. She's really difficult to work with and we've had prior involvements and this was a routine thing I'd say. And it's still true for those of you in this field, you know, please use this. I said, let's go back to our very first contact with her and our very first interview with her and don't read the case. Summary Read the interview notes and see what she said. And invariably in that first interview, she was much more forthcoming. She was much more open. She detailed the behaviors because she had hope that if I talk about this, things would get better. Right? And then what? The system and probably her partner trained her to learn. So again, remember came by this honorably? Yes. Came by this honorable issue is that the response that she got, this  [00:27:52][63.7]

Speaker 1: [00:27:52] just trust is valid,  [00:27:53][0.8]

Speaker 2: [00:27:54] right? That was that it made things worse. Or at least it didn't make things better, that there was no benefit to disclosing. And so we have to really when we get a survivor, I tell people this all the time. And her behavior doesn't make sense to assume there are things that you don't know about the situation, particularly about the perpetrators pattern of behavior that you haven't yet learned. And you may never learn that that are influencing her decision making, assume that her behavior is logical for her circumstance. Even if you have trouble identifying and making sense of it and use that base assumption to guide your curiosity in your questions and your engagement. Because I can tell you from time over time of using that method that you often find very useful valid information that helps you partner with this person better and make better outcomes for the family.  [00:28:48][54.6]

Speaker 1: [00:28:49] And if you're an ally and you're not a worker, you don't work in any agency or industry that you know is touched by domestic violence, which is almost impossible. But if you're just an ally, a family member or friend, if somebody discloses to you and you kind of put the the the the screws in and you're like, Oh, you got to leave, that person is not going to talk to you again, right? And you really need to hear that right. You are not a safe space for that person. That marks you as a person who doesn't want to hear or understand the very nuanced challenges that domestic violence and abuse and coercive control have, because it's not that simple.  [00:29:34][44.8]

Speaker 2: [00:29:35] And I think, you know, making the distinction really clear, that's different from saying, I want you to be safe. You deserve to be safe. What? No one to treat you this way. What can I do to make things better? How can I be happier? That's right. What if what's worked and hasn't worked to make the situation better? Those kind of responses were not telling you to give up step away. We're telling you to really look at your response and the nature of it, because oftentimes that response and this is where I'm going to say comes from your fear for their safety, right? Best, best intentions. The most generous understanding is you want them to be better off. And you think that by saying to them you should leave and telling them what to do that you're actually  [00:30:21][45.5]

Speaker 1: [00:30:21] or even what's wrong with you? Why don't you protect your children, right? You're a smarter person than that, right? You're you're you're an intelligent woman. Why would you let him treat you that way? You just keep  [00:30:31][9.8]

Speaker 2: [00:30:31] feeling. Sounds like you've heard these things say. Right, right. And you're actually reminded me of how many people I've worked with  [00:30:40][8.6]

Speaker 1: [00:30:40] or don't say anything because you're going to agitate him, right? And it's going to make it worse. That's another one. That's another  [00:30:47][6.6]

Speaker 2: [00:30:47] big one. And I have to tell you how many people I've met over the course of my career who have disclosed to me that who are professionals, social workers, even domestic violence and women sector workers who are in abusive relationships, who who felt so much shame and self-blame and they couldn't reach out or were scared to reach out for help because they felt like I should know better. Yeah. And and there's even sometimes a greater sense of being trapped in a different way for those folks or are for four women who are educated or have money even right? Because they they don't think they're going to be believed. They they they can't believe they're in that circumstance themselves. And so I think every, every situation, it's got a different flavor to it.  [00:31:37][49.7]

Speaker 1: [00:31:37] You know, it's funny because people say, Well, why do smart women get into abusive relationships? And it just makes me want to write right now. You know, and and one of my pat answers is usually abusers don't start abusing until they know that you're committed and and you're and you're trapped.  [00:31:52][15.4]

Speaker 2: [00:31:53] And some abusers, I mean, there's a strain of of abusive behavior where they actually seek out strong women. Yeah. And then attack the very things that they said they admired or appreciated. And and and and and and those things become things that get targeted over time. Yeah. And so I think it's it's it's sort of understanding that that that abusers are often turning strength to liabilities, turning them into problems and then actually attacking those directly. And that it's very disorienting and that's very undercutting.  [00:32:32][38.7]

Speaker 1: [00:32:33] Are they set in your work becomes a liability. That's right. The stress point taking care of the children or, you know, your creativity or you're going out to speak or, you know, whatever it is, you know, whatever it is that gives you a sense of meaning or a sense of individuality. And that's actually, I think, what's being attempted to be destroyed and to make you a little bit more dependent, a little bit less individual, a little bit more attached in a really unhealthy way. So that was reporting and retraction. OK. He was about to talking, and I touched his hand because we only have about 50 minutes. Man, can we talk? So the next one is actually, I think this one's super important. It's not it. It does. This is like at the end of the cycle, but I think that it's really important to mention because it is often used against victims in custody battles, and that is depression and suicide. Right? So with I'm going again, I'm going to paint the picture and I'm constantly going to use the analogy of torture and the research that's been done on torture via the military. When you were a person who has lived for years in torture, you're not going to say abuse because it's torture, right? And you have had to navigate around these twists and turns that no one can predict that don't make any sense. They can happen at any time. There you are. You're you're taking care of your child. And all of a sudden you have somebody screaming at you. You don't have a vehicle and you ask your partner to go buy milk before they go to work. And he's standing over you, calling you a bitch or a counter horrible mother and telling you how messed up you are and selfish you are. And you're cowering on the floor and you've been doing this for years, years. OK, maybe there's physical abuse involved. Maybe there's threats of violence, right? Maybe there's just pure coercive control and mental manipulation, abuse, verbal abuse and emotional abuse. And you eventually become depressed.  [00:34:54][141.1]

Speaker 2: [00:34:54] Right? Which is again, a normal response. And, you know, it encapsulates anger and encapsulates sadness and grief. It does all those things you've been  [00:35:04][9.5]

Speaker 1: [00:35:04] through those cycles, right? A million times popped out of them again have hope again, right existed in a place where there was a limited amount of peace. And then everything exploded again unpredictably. And you lived this way for years. You now have a really high level of embedded trauma, right? You have a high level of distrust that the world can be safe because that's not your experience. Perhaps you've lived in an environment where other people, adults that you admire have witnessed this and said nothing. Right? And so it it it shores up that this is reality, right? And this is the reality you live in, right? And you don't want to live in that reality anymore.  [00:35:48][43.8]

Speaker 2: [00:35:49] And I think one of the things as I'm listening to you talk, you know, you're really making a really clear case for when we personalize this as a deficit or a pathology, and we don't see the social responses around that person that are sending the message, there's no help for you. There's nothing that's going to make.  [00:36:09][20.7]

Speaker 1: [00:36:09] This is completely normal.  [00:36:10][0.8]

Speaker 2: [00:36:11] This is normal, right? All this to see here. That's right. That depression and even suicidality is is a is a normal human response. And I want to be really clear, that doesn't mean we're saying it's it's acceptable for that situation to continue to happen. That person or that person might not need support or treatment or even medication. We're not like, we're not like sort of being black and white around that, but we're just trying to illuminate that if the focus is just on what's wrong with you or we don't look at depression in the context of safety or the abuse.  [00:36:48][37.0]

Speaker 1: [00:36:49] You said that very professionally with that. I'm just going to say sister and brother, if you're living like that for years, you've been strong and you're at a place of depression and fatigue because nobody has told you that the world does not have to be this way and it can be better. And they haven't proved that to you, right? Then I know where you're at, right? I understand you.  [00:37:10][21.4]

Speaker 2: [00:37:11] I like your weight better. I like your way better.  [00:37:14][3.0]

Speaker 1: [00:37:15] People look and act now.  [00:37:16][0.7]

Speaker 2: [00:37:16] But yeah, I know. I know. But I think it's really this. This sense of we're really trying to invite people to to to step out of the pathology model into this really understanding of of when you see a survivor who's depressed or even suicidal to see the perpetrator behind that.  [00:37:36][20.4]

Speaker 1: [00:37:37] Now let's talk about how it's weaponized.  [00:37:38][1.2]

Speaker 2: [00:37:39] Yeah, go ahead.  [00:37:40][1.1]

Speaker 1: [00:37:40] Because suicidality and attempts of suicide, particularly if, oh, if you only just paint a picture, we have a young mother with a baby and and her partner is incredibly abusive and coercive. Controlling has been marginally violent, which to me just means punching. And you haven't gone to the hospital and you haven't had broken bones, OK?  [00:38:04][23.7]

Speaker 2: [00:38:05] Right? No. My measure, your measure. My measure, the kid.  [00:38:08][2.9]

Speaker 1: [00:38:08] You're right, you haven't heard that podcast, right? My measure as a kid was I heard a news story that talked about a little boy who was chained to the floor in a closet and starved to death. And I said, Oh, that's abuse, right? Anything less is not. That's right. And this was a way for me to protect myself. Exactly. And so you have this young mom. And she now has left her partner because of his violence, but he's continuing to threaten, coerce her and doing that now via the systems that are charged to protect her and her child. You know, I have a particular court in mind, right? Yeah. And and she feels no escape, right? Because she's left. She did what she was supposed to do. Right. You did what you were supposed to do. Right. And I want you. I like I really want the people listening to this to hear that right? You were a good and responsible parent  [00:39:05][56.9]

Speaker 2: [00:39:06] and protective and protective. Right.  [00:39:08][2.0]

Speaker 1: [00:39:08] Right. And other people failed you, right? And now you're depressed because you don't feel as if anything that you do can make the situation better. Disclosing did not make it better, right? Maybe you've lost partial custody of a child because of it, right? And now you try to commit suicide. Right? And then what happens? Everybody knows. Everybody knows who works in this industry knows the answer to this question. You go ahead and to say what happened?  [00:39:36][28.2]

Speaker 2: [00:39:37] Well, and your your mental health issues become a focal point, and you're you may be very likely deemed unsafe for the children. And and and then the kids may even be more placed or they're abused with the abuser. And, you know, I have actually to optimistic stories. Around this actually good. Yeah, well, because because it's, you know, it's it's what we see when 70 other is implemented and is used by workers to change their practice. And I'll I'll tell two quick stories. One is, you know, of a scenario that's repeated over and over again. Kid goes to school and says Mom's depressed. She won't get to bed and I'm scared of dad. And in this particular case, the the worker came in and I won't give the details that that are, you know, disclosing or, you know, too much, too much detail in the case. But work goes in and and identifies the issue. Partners with the mom validates her experience, talked to her about her understanding the worker, understanding the abuse and what's going on, strategize with her in a way that's partnering and in mom's depression lifts without service intervention. And to me, that's to me was a huge success, you know, because we often then add in services for mom and she has to do them and she's not safe, like you said, and he interferes with her going to those services. And all of a sudden, she's failed at her plan. And, you know, we have more proof of her being a bad parent. And this was going invalidate partnering and her depression lifted without service delivery because her her depression was situational. Like you were describing so. And the partnering even included planning with her up until her going to court, where she was going to get a court order, and that the agency was going to take responsibility for kicking him out of the house, the worker said on the doorstep of the court. If you get scared between here and going through with this, we will regroup and you won't be punished by us. This is your plan. Yeah, we're going to walk with you. So. So when agencies and professionals can walk, walk with survivors, they that that person can left?  [00:41:50][133.6]

Speaker 1: [00:41:51] Yeah.  [00:41:51][0.0]

Speaker 2: [00:41:53] The other thing is is more about a custody case where it went to to one of the higher courts in this particular state. And the judge, who was ruling on the appeal, was presented with the critical components of the safe and together model. And and and around the perpetrators behavior in the service strengths. And one of the statements that struck me in the ruling was that when mom fled one state to another with the child for safety, that that was the reasonable action of a person trying to protect her kids. Yes, her child. And in context is everything because we know that cases like that could be just as easily labeled abduction or alienation. But when the decision maker was presented with the perpetrators pattern of behavior and mom's pattern of protective efforts, their ruling from the bench was, I see, we see the court sees this person as a protective parent, and to me, that's the power of applying this approach to shift the framework. Yeah. You know, and so so we we we want people to hear those stories as well.  [00:43:05][72.2]

Speaker 1: [00:43:05] Yeah, this is a pretty heavy one. Well, it's  [00:43:07][1.5]

Speaker 2: [00:43:07] good now and you're being, you know, really open and and talking about the specifics of your experience in that.  [00:43:13][6.0]

Speaker 1: [00:43:13] Well, the next one, the next the next part of this because there's another piece, OK, is actually a little bit difficult for me because because it does hit, it hits a hard spot in me. But but that is is that a lot of times suicidality post separation in particular, you know, may just be a processing of the trauma or it may be from the trauma received because there's adversarial systems that that person has disclosed. And now they're being, you know, punished in some manner via, you know, their disclosure to the system. But the other piece of that is that if the victim is in an environment, a community, a culture, a religious community where people are angry at them for just disclosing where people are resistant to the reality of the experience of the victim and the actions of the perpetrator, perpetrators and the behaviors of the perpetrators, that that will cause a tremendous amount of depression not being believed right by your community or being rejected by your community for disclosing which can be seen as a betrayal. Right. Particularly in communities where there is a sense of the world is against.  [00:44:50][96.4]

Speaker 2: [00:44:50] That's right.  [00:44:50][0.2]

Speaker 1: [00:44:51] That's right. And that is super important for people to hear  [00:44:54][3.4]

Speaker 2: [00:44:56] in the U.S.. Context, we know, you know, we hear it from a lot of different communities where don't air our dirty laundry in public. You know, and I think for any group and I come out of a group that has a history of of of oppression, anti-Semitism, you know that that there's a real strong sense of the wider system can't be trusted, right? We are, well, our our collective well-being. And that again, is as has come by. Honestly, we have this intersectionality will demonize us.  [00:45:26][30.4]

Speaker 1: [00:45:26] That's why you expose this  [00:45:28][1.1]

Speaker 2: [00:45:28] is this is the importance of intersectionality and understanding all these things in an intersectional way. And the model really kind of includes that very kind of fundamentally.  [00:45:38][10.7]

Speaker 1: [00:45:39] And now that could be because a group is is has been systematically and legitimately repressed or marginalized. Or it could be that that group is steeped and embedded in a culture of abuse and coercive control, and they do not want to let go of it. Right? Tool? That's right. And that is super important for people to  [00:46:07][27.2]

Speaker 2: [00:46:07] hear right and in. You're speaking to something where we're individual abusers will actually who are afraid of the consequences to them themselves personally will throw loyalty to a group in the face of a survivor,  [00:46:24][16.8]

Speaker 1: [00:46:24] loyalty to group,  [00:46:25][0.6]

Speaker 2: [00:46:25] loyalty to the clan, to your community,  [00:46:27][1.9]

Speaker 1: [00:46:28] loyalty to your,  [00:46:29][0.8]

Speaker 2: [00:46:29] you know, and it becomes a tool that real concern for conversation, oppression, racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia gets used by individual abusers to protect their behavior. And it's a it's a tricky space to navigate and because the dangers of oppression and and structural violence and abuse are real, right? Yes.  [00:46:58][29.0]

Speaker 1: [00:46:58] And and there truly are also cultures that are steeped in coercive control and abuse, particularly repression of women as a tool to keep people in line. And it is part of the fabric of that, the way that people behave. And that's not uncommon, I think, in the wider culture. We really actually do have that. We have a level of acceptance, right? Obviously, we we we see abusive behavior in politics, right? All the time. Right. Not to mention any names, but you know, we see a coercion. We we see it in the behaviors of corporate cultures. Right? You know, a friend of mine who's a really powerhouse family law attorney who really advocates for victims talks about experiencing it as a female lawyer in the court system? Right? You know, and so it is a problem with our culture, right? It is a problem with her. It is.  [00:48:01][62.9]

Speaker 2: [00:48:01] Yeah.  [00:48:01][0.0]

Speaker 1: [00:48:02] So and and so then the next thing I want to I want to talk about is actually avoidance and hiding, which kind of goes with retraction. Right? Avoidance and hiding. And that is is not being accessible, avoiding the people that you've disclosed to because you now feel endangered or you feel ashamed. Right? You feel shame for the disclosure you disclosed under a certain amount of emotional and physical duress. And now you don't want to talk about it because you feel like you exposed yourself. Right? People may be judging you, right? And maybe a system is judging, right? And all of these are sort of normal trauma patterns when a person hasn't fully achieved safety and may arise, realize in a situation where maybe they have disclosed they've done a lot of work, they they are in a physically safe space, but emotionally there may be threats of custody, access of financial harm. Sure in the background that people are not aware of, right, because they're not asking the right questions that cause that to happen.  [00:49:20][78.1]

Speaker 2: [00:49:21] I think also it's pretty normal to test, you know, I poked my head out, I say something. I asked for help and then I pull it down. If I if I don't  [00:49:28][7.8]

Speaker 1: [00:49:29] like a prairie dog,  [00:49:30][0.6]

Speaker 2: [00:49:30] yeah, like a Perry dog. But but if I don't get a response as positive or it doesn't work and I think we we have to really understand that these situations are really dynamic and that survivors. Again, I hear people say and again, understanding systems. You know, if you're a child protection worker, you've got 30 days, 45 days to do an investigation or an assessment right at the beginning of a case. And that means often one or two visits with the family in some cases. Says was just incredible because these are huge decisions, but these are the ways these systems are resourced and it's about budgets and funding and public commitment, so it's beyond the individual workers. I really want to make that clear. And they're often asked to make a determination about something very quickly. And so there's a lot of pressure, often unstated, that you need to get this person to disclose right away. And that's not consistent with the needs of trauma survivors because they deserve trust. They deserve to feel like they trust the person. And these are huge disclosures. They're potentially dangerous. They're very emotional. And and so I think we all have to really appreciate and respect that the set up for everybody is poor. Well, in these scenarios,  [00:50:45][75.5]

Speaker 1: [00:50:46] there's a few key things that you can do right, that that help that timeline along and not coming from a stance of a force of you have to of, you know, pushing the victim or the survivor to fully disclose and saying things like, you know, you're incredibly brave, right? I know that you may not feel safe right now. And and and how can I help you feel more safe? What can I do that would increase your sense of safety? What is it that you have done in the past that has worked for you and your kids, right? You know, and really also validating the experience of the survivor in this sense. Of course you're angry, right? Why wouldn't you be? It would be crazy for you to not be angry that somebody has been abusing you like this for years. Of course you're frightened. Yeah, of course you're frightened, right? Of course you. You feel this sense of desperation and and and despair. Right? People have failed you.  [00:51:57][70.9]

Speaker 2: [00:51:58] The two most basic things I I will coach workers around saying as if their child protection response is domestic violence cases to say the adult survivor, we're here because we're concerned about your kid's safety and well-being and your safety and well-being. And that seems like such a small thing to do, but to really make sure that you're communicating to that adult survivor, that nano funding parent, that they're not ancillary, that they're not going to be marginalized or pushed out of the picture because they're inconvenient or perceived as not protecting, but that their safety is just as important as the safety of the kids. That's one thing we say when we coach workers. The second thing we say is to make it clear that and again, to me, I always use the metaphor of people who have seen me talk about this. They're professionals. And this goes for allies who are not professionals. We're 100 percent in control of the way we build a bridge to somebody. We built half the bridge. You know, we built our part of the bridge. The other person makes the decision to step on to it or not. That's that has to do with a lot of factors. But the quality of our bridge and the strength of our portion of it is completely in our control. And so when we say that person, look, in circumstances like this, the way I think about it, the way we think about it is the person getting violent is 100 percent responsible for their own behaviors and the impact those are having on your kids. What we've seen that do is drain away. Some fear that they're going to get blamed, particularly around parenting, which is such a huge area, given that we expect different things from women and men as parents. That to say to a woman who's being abused, who's afraid for her kids, who feel like her kids have been hurt by her partner. You're not disclosing to me what you did wrong as a parent, you're going to be disclosing to me what your partner has done wrong as a parent, to me as a fundamental shift in the way we practice, but also probably what she's ever heard from anybody.  [00:53:59][120.6]

Speaker 1: [00:53:59] And this is why the safe until the language is so powerful and survivors and victims immediately recognize it, and they immediately know that it's a place of safety for them and that knowledge, that ability for them to stand in that safety and feel protected and feel supported and feel nurtured is a powerful, powerful tool for safety. And so you've got the professional language. And what I would say to the to the survivors and the victims is that you really stand in the knowledge that you have survived something that professional soldiers trained for four years. Elite soldiers train for four years and you are not broken by your responses are normal and natural. They may be different. And there may be challenges to yourself sometimes and and for others in in there trying to understand you. But that doesn't mean they're wrong. Right? That doesn't mean you're a bad parent. Right? It just means that you survived a level of torture that most people cannot actually tolerate. And your body is is is responding to it in a in a very predictable way. And that particularly if you are a victim or a survivor who has had their child taken away from them because they disclosed abuse in the case and in the course of a divorce or a custody dispute, and you have become severely depressed substance and started using substances to deal that. This is a normal response to trauma and not being safe and not being supported and not truly being heard in your disclosure. And that feeling is if your child is safe, right? And that is going to be incredibly devastating to any parent who loves their child. And so that that sense of desperation, right,  [00:56:10][130.3]

Speaker 2: [00:56:10] speaking to that right and that you feel  [00:56:12][1.7]

Speaker 1: [00:56:13] is a desperation of a really good parent who loves their child. Yeah. And period, right? Period.  [00:56:22][9.1]

Speaker 2: [00:56:23] So that's wonderful. That's really clear and connecting. And you know, it's it's so important that we can say those things to survivors. It is.  [00:56:35][12.5]

Speaker 1: [00:56:37] And I and I think that that this concludes this podcast,  [00:56:40][3.2]

Speaker 2: [00:56:40] I was wondering, you know, we take a different lead on on podcasts and we sit down and we talk and we see where it takes us. And and you know, Ruth woke up in the middle of the night last night and said, I want to talk about this today. And so here we we get to do this and it's wonderful. And thank you so much for bringing this forward and for opening up.  [00:57:05][24.6]

Speaker 1: [00:57:06] Yeah, being vulnerable is if you remember that being vulnerable is a very difficult thing, right for people in general. And that ironically, there's many people out there who can be like, Oh, she's so brave to talk about her experience. But there's so many survivors and victims who are maligned and and and harmed because of them, because  [00:57:27][20.8]

Speaker 2: [00:57:27] they talk about it.  [00:57:28][0.7]

Speaker 1: [00:57:28] Very much so. So if you want to learn more about the safe and together model, you can go to Safe and together institute dot com, right? If you wish to learn the model itself and you can't attend any of our live trainings or conferences and you're just an ally or you're a family member and you you really want to get information on how to help your, your, your family or a friend. We do have courses as well, and you definitely would benefit from the intro course. We will be coming out with partnering  [00:58:03][34.9]

Speaker 2: [00:58:04] with  [00:58:04][0.0]

Speaker 1: [00:58:04] survivor survivors, right? So in a couple of months. And that is going to be a powerful tool as well, right?  [00:58:12][7.2]

Speaker 2: [00:58:13] So we hope to see you one of our conferences. We're in a week or two, you know, in February 2020, we're heading to Australia to do our Asia Pacific Conference, our third one. And after that, in March 2020, we're doing our European conference in Liverpool and after that in Santa Fe and North America in May. We're doing our UM, our North America North American conference and these conferences, to be honest, are designed for professionals. Yeah. And but you can check them out on our website. But looking forward to getting your comments and your feedback on this episode and see you next. See you next time.  [00:58:13][0.0]

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