In this episode, David interviews Ruth about the Safe & Together Institute's Family and Friends Ally Guide. This guide was created out of the direct experiences of survivors of domestic violence, coercive control and child abuse. It outlines what survivors wish their friends and family had known or done to assist them to safety and healing. David and Ruth discuss the ideas behind the guide including how
You can download this guide at here.
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
In this episode, David interviews Ruth about the Safe & Together Institute's Family and Friends Ally Guide. This guide was created out of the direct experiences of survivors of domestic violence, coercive control and child abuse. It outlines what survivors wish their friends and family had known or done to assist them to safety and healing. David and Ruth discuss the ideas behind the guide including how
You can download this guide at here.
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
[00:00:00] OK, we're back, we're back. Hi, I come back to partnered with Survivor, [00:00:05][4.5]
Speaker 1: [00:00:06] I'm David Mandel, executive director of the Save and Together Institute. [00:00:09][2.8]
Speaker 2: [00:00:09] And I'm Ruth Jones Mandel and I am the communications and learning manager. And we are home like everybody else, sitting on our couch with the dog and our coffee and our tea, respectively. Although we have sunshine in the northeast, which is good for all of our mental health. [00:00:31][22.1]
Speaker 1: [00:00:32] Good. Really good. I can't speak for everybody. Really good. Definitely so. And we've got a great show today for you. This podcast is is dedicated to our brand new How to Be an Ally to love one to a Love when experiencing domestic violence. [00:00:50][17.6]
Speaker 2: [00:00:50] Call it the Friends and Family Guide, [00:00:52][1.4]
Speaker 1: [00:00:52] the friends and Family Guy. There is a website in our family and friends, friends and family, but but [00:00:58][6.0]
Speaker 2: [00:00:59] my little, it's it's our little [00:01:00][1.1]
Speaker 1: [00:01:00] pets. That's right. And this is really Ruth's baby, and I'm really proud of its presence into the world already. I'm really excited about it. Yeah. So we we thought we would do this a little differently where I'd actually ask her questions because this was her idea. This was her concept, and we worked collaboratively to bring it across the finish line. But really, this this came out of her experiences and it was really when she came to me with the idea was was really so consistent with the vision for the safe and together model and its ability to help families and particularly adult and child survivors. I think sometimes I have a naive or something else idea that child welfare systems can be the biggest ally that women have women and children have in the situation where they're being abused by a partner. At the same time, we have to put tools in the hands of those systems and communities, and this ally guide is is a huge step forward. I think from my perspective around our ability not only to give documents, give something to the loved ones, you know, aunties and uncles and sisters and best friends, which give them the language in some ways to support their partner, but also gives child welfare and other professionals tools to talk to one another to give to family members when they're working with them. This can be good for clergy. This can be good for professionals who can go into your waiting room. It can. It can be downloaded directly from the website. [00:02:40][99.9]
Speaker 2: [00:02:41] Anybody who is essentially a mandatory reporter, yeah, this would be a good tool for. [00:02:46][4.8]
Speaker 1: [00:02:47] And from my side, you know, the research is really showing that friends and family are the first point of disclosure for most people. That's not surprising, right? And a really a really large study showed that in in a huge percentage, one study showed 40 percent. [00:03:05][18.7]
Speaker 2: [00:03:06] Another showed 75 [00:03:07][0.5]
Speaker 1: [00:03:08] disclosure. Yeah, but what? Actually, what I'm talking about is 40 percent of the women said nobody actually helped write unhelpful. So we're getting huge amounts of disclosures. Hmm. Right. That 75 percent. At the same time, we're getting survivors saying, I didn't get a good response or I didn't get the response I needed. And we're also really getting information. This shouldn't be a surprise to anybody when people get a positive response from family or friends that they're going to feel safer. Their mental health is going to be better, just a whole load of positive impact. So. So so this guide, which you can download from Safe and Taylor and SI.com right now, right? Like run there right now, if you don't have it [00:03:52][44.2]
Speaker 2: [00:03:53] right and we're going to drop it into the link of the of this podcast so you can see that it's a beautiful it's a beautiful guide. You can download it. Or, you know, we could order. People can order [00:04:05][12.7]
Speaker 1: [00:04:06] copies, copies, co-branded or localized resources, localized [00:04:09][3.2]
Speaker 2: [00:04:10] resources on it. And there's also a print at home version, which is black and white for people who don't have access to printing. So a couple of different ways that people can access it and use it. And also, you know, we're hoping to get some corporate sponsors that are willing to donate money so that agencies who don't have the funding can also get this printed for their resources. Yes. [00:04:42][32.6]
Speaker 1: [00:04:43] So we're going to jump right in. OK, and this is me interviewing you. That's kind of fun, you know? And and I'm excited about doing it. So talk a little bit about how you came up with the idea. What was the impetus from your experience around? Around the need for this. [00:05:01][17.5]
Speaker 2: [00:05:01] Well, because I had experienced both the failure of systems and the failure of protect adults who are supposed to be in a protective role as a child growing up in a cult with fifty five other people. I knew that that in an absence of mandatory reporting and an absence of contact with services, which is what we're experiencing right now, that the best hope for safety and well-being and both physical and emotional well-being for many victims and survivors is friends and family. And also having experienced coercive control as an adult, I also knew that the failures of our friends and family can really prolong the danger, prolong the trauma, increase the trauma, increase the danger, or it can be beneficial. It can be assistant, you know, assistive somebody can actually help you. But my experience is, is that most people, even though they may have good intentions, either don't know how to do that, don't have the language for it, don't have the understanding of domestic violence and child abuse are naturally hesitant to penetrate the the personal space of other people. We don't want to be intrusive into other people's relationships and other people's situations. We we do want to give people the benefit of the doubt and end because perpetrators are not monsters, because they're not presenting as perpetrators all the time, which is somewhat of the narrative that we have created, that they're these scary humans and even social workers believe that when they have to engage perpetrators, they get very hesitant if, particularly if, their child protection and they've never done work with the perpetrator. You know, you see that a lot in our safe and together work. But the reality is, is that perpetrators most of the time are charming, lovely, engaged, intelligent human beings who choose to abuse their family member or their loved one on the backside. And so helping people with an understanding of what trauma looks like as resulting from domestic violence or child abuse. Understanding the subtleties of coercive control and understanding the subtleties of domestic violence and how it's really not apparent. You see the the shadow of it, the fingerprint of it before you ever see the full blown effects of it. And then how to help family and friends engage their loved one in a in a compassionate, partnering, responsible, non victim blaming way that allows for them to actually offer practical assistance. [00:08:24][202.6]
Speaker 1: [00:08:25] So you've laid out three basic themes that are, you know, behind the guide. One is sort of how does a friend of families like now going to keep saying this wrong? So family and friends are going to say it that way, right? I had a family and friends know what coercive control is and and and domestic violence, how to hear when somebody is disclosing whether I've actually come in saying, you're right, and that's sort of how to help, basically, yes. So can you talk a little bit about the piece that really is in the guide around coercive control? Because you're it was really important to you that we use the land not just of language, not just domestic violence, but of course of control. Can you talk a little bit about why that was so important to you? [00:09:09][44.0]
Speaker 2: [00:09:10] Well, number one, that's that's becoming the UN standard that we talk about Interpersonal Gender-Based Violence from the framework of both domestic violence or domestic abuse and coercive control. But the reason why I was so important to me is because I know in most victims know that that coercive control is actually one of the most damaging elements physical violence can be. Is is painful. And physical violence can be very threatening to one's life or one's physical health. But coercive control is the underlying pattern that really pins that person to that partner and and restricts their ability to leave and to move. [00:09:54][43.9]
Speaker 1: [00:09:55] So on the second section is called domestic violence isn't just about violence. It isn't just about adults and what I want to read to people from here, is it? It says it's most useful to understand domestic violence as a series of behaviors that can make other family members feel less safe. Limited in their choices. Let us satisfaction with their life, less connected with others. Less joy and fearful and traumatized. Yes. And I think one of the things that as we've talked about this and Luke and Ryan Hart are really articulate about it. Yeah, they really are, which is we we identify coercive control, not just by the actions that are being committed, but sometimes it's even easier to notice it based on how the lives of the victim survivors are, are limited right and [00:10:45][50.5]
Speaker 2: [00:10:46] how their [00:10:46][0.2]
Speaker 1: [00:10:47] lives are. And that's really present [00:10:47][0.9]
Speaker 2: [00:10:48] right, how their lives are framed by the by the controlling fear and anxiety of what the perpetrator will do. And that permeates every decision that you make. It permeates making dinner at the right time or the type of food you make cleaning a house. It permeates you, choosing to go to see your friends for how long. You know, what time do you need to be back because you're afraid that your partner is going to verbally or emotionally or physically abuse you because or the children while you're gone. So coercive control is this is this looming piece where in the United States we only recognize battering as the illegal activity. But the torture and the coercive control that occurs, the controlling of another person's life and the ability to have power over them is the defining piece of what runs through all forms of of interpersonal violence, really. [00:11:52][64.0]
Speaker 1: [00:11:53] And this section also talks about how somebody chooses. Violence may involve the children may target the children because it's really when families without with kids, it's it's really hard to talk about coercive control and not talk about it as a parenting choices, people familiar with the model, right, know. And so this section really helps family and friends connect the dots as well, which is this isn't just a couples issue, is it between the adults? It's really about one person making a series of choices that are impacting child and family functioning. Right? And I'm just going to read from a couple of examples that are there, and part of what you were really committed to was that this guide would be chock full of specific examples, right? [00:12:43][50.0]
Speaker 2: [00:12:43] Behavioral information, specific behavioral information. I wish we could have done more, but the guide would have been 60 pages. [00:12:51][7.2]
Speaker 1: [00:12:51] Right now it's 30 pages, it's 30 pages. [00:12:52][1.5]
Speaker 2: [00:12:53] Had we done it, I wanted enough behavioral information there so that people could recognize in a situation that is not classically considered by them to be domestic violence because there may be no physical violence that they can recognize coercive control and domestic abuse in there. [00:13:12][18.6]
Speaker 1: [00:13:13] So on this list, so it says, like with coercive control, the full list of actions that harm children is so wide that is difficult to make a complete list. Here are some examples that might give you a sense of what to look for. Witnessing physical violence or threats of violence against a family member name calling or other humiliating behavior toward the children. Constant criticism. Belittling disrupting daily routines, housing and schooling through the use of violence. Attacking the other person's parenting. Undercut the other person's parents. The other parents rules. I mean, and so this is just a [00:13:45][31.9]
Speaker 2: [00:13:45] can you read the last one on that list [00:13:46][1.2]
Speaker 1: [00:13:47] under oh, the last one interfering with the children gain the physical or emotional health support? [00:13:51][3.9]
Speaker 2: [00:13:51] Then yeah, then there's a couple, there's a couple of of of ones in there that I really think that highlight the core elements of coercive control. And that is and that is creating an environment of fear and anxiety that one partner is really creating this environment of fear and anxiety. And everybody has to respond. And everybody has to react and the world needs to be created around that one person. Right. And so I really want to underpin that through all of these because, you know, there can be behaviors that people adopt in a family like the you have an example in there about yelling, you know, two parents can be yelling at each other and not be afraid of each other. That's right. But if if that's happening as a pattern in the relationship and one partner is fearful, terrified, if there's a reason that they're they're fearful because there's subtle threats occurring or there's behind closed doors, threats of violence, or I'm going to hurt myself, I'm going to commit suicide. Or just general destruction of of character for that person, then that's that fear and anxiety is really what you want to be watching out for and all of these behaviors. [00:15:10][78.9]
Speaker 1: [00:15:11] So in that section, there's a lot around sort of identifying coercive control, identifying it and knowing what to look for and understand the dynamics of it. Because one of the things that often for family and friends that that gets reported back is they become frustrated when it appears that the survivor is going back to the perpetrator is continue to make poor choices in their mind. And so we're hoping that having that language in there, having that understanding will let them see one identify what's going on, but to be more compassionate understanding so that when they see that their daughter or their sister is saying, Well, we can't come over, or you know what? I'm upset that you call the police and you can't see the kids that that they can see that this is likely to be a symptom or a protective effort in the context of coercive control and not judge this person, not be angry with them, actually. It may even be a signal to be more scared for them because now the kids are more isolated from extended family. [00:16:16][64.9]
Speaker 2: [00:16:17] Right? It may be a signal to be more scared for them, but not blame them for the situation. And I think that that's a really important piece, right? And the Friends and Family Guide, you know, after reading all of the research about the truth commissions in different countries, there were a few hallmarks as to what made an effective disclosure in that context. And I think that it really applies to individual survivors as well, and that is being believed was the first step in an effective disclosure. If you if you were not believed, then [00:16:56][39.7]
Speaker 1: [00:16:57] you [00:16:57][0.0]
Speaker 2: [00:16:58] were going to be retraumatized, perhaps very abused by a system or your family or your friends. And the other one is creating an environment where the survivor will not experience retribution for those disclosures. And then the other, the other ones are actually kind of important because it talks about how we push survivors to engage in actions that we think they need to engage in, but which don't feel helpful to them. And then that's retraumatizing. And you know, one of those is a lot of times survivors are forced into mediation, particularly if they're going through divorce with their abuser. You know, family courts want them to just get along. Survivors don't have to get along with the person who abused them. It's not a time to forgive them. So that expectation of forgiveness or treating an abusive partner as if they're a rational, reasonable human being to be to be negotiated away without consideration to how they've used coercive control or violence to control a family member is super offensive. [00:18:09][70.9]
Speaker 1: [00:18:10] And I think, you know, you're talking about Family Court, and we know that that family and friends can be sending the same message. You get along for the sake of the kids, especially if there's cultural or religious beliefs that strongly promote the value of marriage family staying together. These things are things that no one can come from, from the wider system to come from, from individual families, right? So the third section of the guide is called barriers to identifying a loved one is being abused, and this is really a straight forward section that answers some really common questions that may impede loved ones from seeing that somebody is being abused. And so one of them is don't all couples argue and have fights, right? The next one is domestic violence easy to spot? The third one is for domestic violence. Survivors always immediately label what they're experiencing. Is abuse, right? Can domestic violence happen after a couple of separated or divorced? And then a big one are domestic violence, of course, control the same as having a temper problem? Right? Right. So so can you just briefly say something about sort of these why these things were selected and and what what we're specifically trying to communicate to family and friends? [00:19:30][80.1]
Speaker 2: [00:19:31] Well, I think that again, domestic violence can be difficult to understand because we've been we've all been raised in the soup of interpersonal violence. In a sense, we've experienced either abuse or coercive control in our own relationships or, you know, pop media movies all sort of convey this underlying underpinning low. Level coercive control to high level coercive control as being part of normal relationship. And so we really do believe that that behaviors which are not acceptable and are coercive control or domestic violence are normal family dynamics, normal parenting behavior as normal couple behaviors. Right. So just like we've had to train people in the language of allyship for other causes. We have to train people in the language of allyship for domestic violence because we've been so habituated to accept abuse and harm of partners or control of partners. So that's that's really why [00:20:43][72.1]
Speaker 1: [00:20:44] I think with a lot of these things where we're giving the answers to kind of switch that paradigm that you're talking about in very concrete, specific language, you know, people look and say, Oh, they're fighting and everybody fights me on my part or disagree or, well, they're separated, and you know, it must be OK now. And that's one of the scariest times for survivors to turning your back on them or sort of assuming that they're out of the weeds right at that point is it can be really dangerous. And. And then I think this bit about temper, I think a lot of times people make allowances, particularly for men to have temper issues and not fully appreciate how it's really changed in the day to day life of the people around them. [00:21:28][44.0]
Speaker 2: [00:21:29] And so I think most of us know if we were to go back to the to the Family Court example, I think a lot of us know a situation where couples were divorcing and we would have called it a contentious divorce where one of the partners then basically tortured their partner ex-partner via the courts. Right now, if you know of your scenario, you probably know a coercive controller, right? Somebody who is abusing another person via threats to try to control them post-separation. And yet we consider this to be somewhat normal. We would say maybe we'd say that person is, you know, is vindictive. Right? But we need to start using the actual language. No, that's coercive control. That's domestic abuse. [00:22:21][52.5]
Speaker 1: [00:22:21] And I think a lot of people that's interpersonal by the professional world with people say, well, those are high conflict divorces. That's right. But filing for promotion, this is one real case, right? Filing four 400 motions against your ex-partner is not a year. Normal is not a high confidence. It's not a [00:22:37][15.5]
Speaker 2: [00:22:37] high conflict [00:22:37][0.1]
Speaker 1: [00:22:37] divorce. It's using courts and systems to abuse and control. [00:22:40][2.7]
Speaker 2: [00:22:41] The courts are just being used by coercive controllers to abuse their partners. And so we've all known these things. We framed it in language, which is which is hides the reality of what's going on. And so really, this is just trying to get the language to be more clear for people. [00:22:56][15.2]
Speaker 1: [00:22:57] The I just want to comment on the fact that we work pretty hard. This is just as important to both of us, that there was that there was diversity in here. There was complexity, there was richness. And so these little cute little blue boxes on the sides that our designer trusted jumps put in there. You know that that that weave through these enriching points like domestic violence in diverse situations we ever heading and it can talk about of people's connection to the land, for instance, or issues of income inequality. There's one here that I was just looking at just now. That is, how does coercive control work? And a lot of times people will try to be supportive and fail. Me and friends will try to be supportive and say, Well, you should go after that person for child support. [00:23:47][49.6]
Speaker 2: [00:23:48] Great telling and [00:23:48][0.6]
Speaker 1: [00:23:49] and what it says. Here are some survivors will decide not to pursue child support, even when legally entitled to it in order to avoid escalating violence to or control. Being an ally to your loved one means understanding how the person who has chosen violence continues to shape her choices even after separation, telling her that her children deserve child support and she should fight for it may not be what she needs to hear. Instead, listen to her hopes and fears and try to help her make the best decision for her situation. [00:24:18][29.1]
Speaker 2: [00:24:19] Right. Because what you may hear once you start to partner with your, your friend or your loved one is you may hear things like I don't want to pursue child support because right now he's not paying attention to us and not paying attention to us means that we're safe, that there's peace, that there's calm. If I pursue him, then the likelihood that I'm going to be abused or the children are going to be abused is going to go up. And so this is actually a protective mechanism, and a lot of times we don't think that way. We haven't been trained to the subtlety of thinking of, Oh, OK, so this person is really just trying to. Buffer themselves from contact right where the courts won't buffer them from content where nobody else is going to buffer them from contact, but they're trying to find a way to be safe. [00:25:07][48.8]
Speaker 1: [00:25:08] And this is where I think there's a nuance, you know, family and friends who love somebody may say, you're strong, you're tough, you're a fighter. You can win, you should, you should fight for your rights. And that can actually make somebody feel worse. Yes, because if that said to somebody without a context to the to the reality of the pattern, right, then it can make them feel even more shame. Right? Because I should. You're right. I should be fighting. I should be doing something more. How can I let him do this to me? But there's not a real conversation about what this is, what's happened to them, right? And what they're afraid might happen [00:25:45][36.5]
Speaker 2: [00:25:45] and what decisions their partner has made in the past that have put them in this position where they now have to live in a certain level of financial disparity because they have them, they have an abusive partner because they're and this and the the long tail of that, you know, how does that impact the kids? How does it impact their ability to to to to move to the world, to have the resources that they need? You know, and it's it's really it becomes this very victim focused. You have to fight. You have to forgive. You have to do this. You have to do that. And this is exactly what we need to be retrained out of. We need to focus on the person who's choosing to do the harm. Right. Right. And and create structures and systems where if a survivor is afraid to get child support from an abuser because the abusers coercively controlling there has to be a way to protect that person and also give them the financial resources that they deserve? That's right. And that's where the response of systems or sometimes the response of friends and family who are upset at the way that the system is functioning can influence. But they can only influence that system if they really understand how to speak the right language and keep the focus in the right place. [00:27:05][80.4]
Speaker 1: [00:27:06] So Section four, you know, we we go in in depth into the symptoms. This is how to domestic violence and coercive control impacted adult and child survivors. And again, this is another place where where you really wanted to make sure there were enough bits of information that people could really see it. And so one thing is we make it clear that the people who choose violence and coercive control can affect people across lots of areas school work, housing, mental health, physical health, substance use, relationship parenting. And so one thing that's really clear in the guide is that it's going to it's it's asking people to think about situations where somebody may be moving around a lot. Right. And and it looks like they can't keep their life together. And to look past that of those obvious symptoms to the course of control that may be going on underneath it would also is in here. Is this this really great solid list about trauma and emotional symptoms? And and and you've spoken very eloquently about how when people have been victimized, they've been traumatized that they they don't always present well, that their experiences are complicated. They may be hard to deal with. Right. And so can you speak a little bit about how important this was to you to kind of communicate to family and friends these things that may be hard to work with or deal with in your loved one that they're a symptom of? [00:28:42][95.8]
Speaker 2: [00:28:42] They are there. Yeah, their symptom. You know, I always I always say that that a lot of people want to support domestic violence victims until domestic violence victims show trauma behaviors, and then they want to call them crazy or they want to slap a diagnoses on them. Right. Just associate of disorder, bipolar disorder, you know, whatever disorder they want to slap on them, which basically is victim blaming in my mind the situations and the the the trauma from the choices of another person to harm somebody over years and years and years created a reality in the body of fight or flight, which created a chemical reality, and that chemical reality over time has very specific impacts based off of your genetic predispositions. Right? So if you have a family that's predisposed to to mental health disorders or a specific mental health disorder, living in abuse and trauma can trigger that. And domestic violence victims often are blamed within the system for their acts of resistance because they want to protect. Their own freedom. They are used to having somebody control them all the time, and then they get involved in systems that they don't document very well. The fullness of the experience that they've had, I don't believe it. Don't focus on the person who chose to do those things. Don't know in the United States unless you've been battered and sent to the hospital. And even then, even if you have don't know how to deal with the nonviolent forms of domestic abuse and domestic violence. And so then when a victim comes into a system with child protection or a court system and they are completely traumatized, they are terrified. They don't trust anybody. They're paranoid because everybody has failed them. And maybe they have an addiction. Maybe they have suicidal ideation. Now what happens is that the person who is has been being abused and tortured is blamed for their natural responses. They may not be comfortable responses, but they are chemically understandable responses from a from a from a body standpoint. Right. And they are not easy for family. It's not easy for people to see their loved one. You know, if they're living in domestic abuse, also be addicted, right? It's easy, then, to blame the victim for their addiction because it's it's the most obvious thing that you can hang your hat on while in the scenes behind. There is somebody who's literally torturing them to that place where they're just trying to manage the trauma or the perpetrator is exacerbating their addiction or has caused their addiction, or is keeping them from getting help for their addiction, or is using it as a as a, as a control method. And so I really feel like because domestic abuse and domestic violence coercive control have been so veiled from us that we have not fully understood what it is, what it looks like, how common it is in a relationship and how deeply it impacts kids and adults that we have really dropped into this victim blaming place around trauma behaviors with survivors. And I'm going to say again, they're not easy. They're not. They don't feel good. They feel out of control. But if you understand that somebody is being threatened and harmed and stalked right, then you can really learn how to have a little bit more empathy and at least help them create the safe space that they need in order for them to start healing. [00:32:46][243.5]
Speaker 1: [00:32:47] Well, I have had experience with cases I worked with where the the being believed being listened to, being validated, not being told what to do. Yeah. Can can pretty quickly, in some cases ameliorate some of those symptoms. I worked on a case where the kids reported that mom was so depressed because the violence she would get in bed and because she got a really helpful response. This wasn't the first round, wasn't for family or friends, it was actually from child protection workers. But then it was together. They collaborated to build, rebuild her relationship with her family. Right? That her depression lifted without clinical treatment, without sessions. And I think that if family and friends are literally looking for this idea of this is hard and I don't know what to do. One of the things they can do is look and say, Have I really listened? Have I really asked questions to really understand the situation? Have I really offered practical help? These are some things we'll talk about in the minute that are in the guide there. Have I validated this is not her fault? And so we often jump to she's got to leave and I've got to help her leave. And if she won't, if she won't, if she won't leave. I get frustrated with her and [00:34:07][79.9]
Speaker 2: [00:34:07] then I abandoned my man. [00:34:09][1.2]
Speaker 1: [00:34:09] And I feel bad, but I feel like it's sort of what else can I do? And I, the guide is really designed, I think, to help people take those micro steps and support that. I don't feel like enough, actually, but maybe the change everything for this person. [00:34:26][16.4]
Speaker 2: [00:34:26] I think that being believed, being believed and being heard is probably one of the most healing things that the most damaging piece about domestic violence and coercive control for me and child abuse for me was that reality was upended and really created by the perpetrators. Everybody else around them sort of fell into lock step with them, out of fear, out of a sense of of duty, out of a sense of a greater mission, out of a sense of family, out of. Sense of commitment, whatever it was that compelled them to continue supporting that person who was a perpetrator. Some of it was that they were being abused themselves and coercively controlled. You know, so I think that it's really important for us to understand the subtleties so that we can do better. [00:35:21][54.8]
Speaker 1: [00:35:23] So the subtleties are really underlying. Section five, which is coded disclosure, is how survivors tell you without telling you. And and this is I hate to say, this is probably my favorite part of the I'm happy that on this one. This is my favorite part because this is really about the nitty gritty in some sense. It's really important to understand the patterns, really understand its importance to the impact and the nature. And then the guide really moves into this very practical. The second half is really a lot of practical guidance, including scripts. And this is about how [00:35:58][35.9]
Speaker 2: [00:36:01] domestic violence and coercive control victims tell you a million ways that they're being abused. Right? You just don't hear it sometimes. You know, I remember, you know, being a kid and we moved to Kentucky from California, the cold did in the middle of nowhere, 111 acres, you know, backwoods of Kentucky. People were still coon hunting for their food, you know? And I remember I must have only been about eight or nine years old, this woman coming over with her daughter and she was blind and her daughter was deaf, and her and her husband was mentally disabled. And I remember she would repeat over and over again how she became deaf in her right ear. Well, you know, he gets agitated sometimes. Right? I remember being fascinated as a kid sitting there and watching everybody listen to her tell this story. And as a nine year old, I knew what that meant. I knew that he had hit her in the ear multiple times and she had gone deaf, but nobody asked her a question. And I was so I was so like. I was intrigued by that. Nobody wanted to know. [00:37:07][66.5]
Speaker 1: [00:37:08] And the experience that women probably had of invisibility, of the abuse and the normalization of it, right? You just make your memories. So I haven't thought about it in years. I did live in a cult by lived in a Quaker community for a year, and I remember there was a neighbor there in this family with two youngest kids, you know, under 10, and they came over at one point and the kids mistreated the mom so much. And I remember thinking one is I would have never been allowed to get away with that. My family, but my thought, wasn't anything but what's wrong with her as a parent that she's letting that happen, right? Instead of wondering and later on, as I became more steeped in our understanding domestic violence and coercive control. I went back to that memory, which I haven't thought about in years and said, Oh my God, it's more than likely he was undercutting her parenting, right? Because they were verbally abusing her. Yeah, and and it was not absolutely the only possibility. It's extremely high likelihood. But if you're seeing stuff like that, that there may be abuse behind the scenes where where one parent is under kind of this person's parenting is where they're verbally abusing a mom and model. [00:38:26][77.9]
Speaker 2: [00:38:27] Yeah, right. So these are the children model that behave right. [00:38:30][2.8]
Speaker 1: [00:38:30] And so these are the these are the ways that survivors may tell us without telling us. And so there's a whole list of phrases. Again, the specificity is wonderful. And you know, so here's just a few examples of the of the coded disclosures. He pops off. He loses it. He doesn't like it when he gets angry a lot. He has bad short temper. [00:38:51][21.4]
Speaker 2: [00:38:52] He's a rough disciplinarian. [00:38:53][0.6]
Speaker 1: [00:38:54] I have to walk on eggshells. He's hard on the kid. And so, you know, these are things that we can be listening for. And I just want to take it a sorry. [00:39:02][8.1]
Speaker 2: [00:39:02] You hear it. You hear all the time people tell stories about their families. That's right. Particularly men, right? Men will say, Well, my dad was really rough on you. Yeah, OK. And through me now, my ears sort of perk up, and I think I want to ask the next question. I want to say, what did that look like, right? What did that? [00:39:18][15.8]
Speaker 1: [00:39:18] He was a hard man to yeah, right. That people say things like he. [00:39:22][4.0]
Speaker 2: [00:39:23] I was hard on you, right? You know you. It's it's difficult to ask the next question, but a lot of times it will really lead you to a lot of a lot of really important behavioral information that will assist you in loving your family member or your or your loved one. [00:39:40][16.8]
Speaker 1: [00:39:40] So I just want to just take a side a sidetrack for a second here as we're talking about coded disclosures. And, you know, I was just talking about he doesn't like it when he gets angry a lot and throughout the guard, one is throughout the safety. Other work we strike this balance, which is. We predominantly used the language of mail for for the person who chooses the islands and and and and G for the person who is that survivor, and this guide is very sensitive, I think because it talks about, you know, if your loved one who's being abused as is male and a same sex relationship or have sex relationship, [00:40:19][38.9]
Speaker 2: [00:40:20] what do we consider? What are we [00:40:21][1.2]
Speaker 1: [00:40:21] looking? What are we looking for and how to respond? We talk about domestic violence and trans relationships. There's a lot of attention and diversity throughout the guide. [00:40:31][9.5]
Speaker 2: [00:40:31] We talk about domestic violence in racially specific situations where people have been oppressed and what their limitations may look like or feel like, how they may have fears surrounding reporting. You know, I think I think as much as as, you know, anything that I had ever read before, we talk about Luke and Ryan Hart a lot. We just we just absolutely admire and they tell the story of being in the in the in the police department after their mom and their sister were murdered by their dad and looking up at a poster with more behaviorally specific information about coercive control. And they realized that they had been living in coercive control and torture for all of their life, but that nobody had ever presented to them. The behavioral information, because we all talk about violence, because all of society talks about being hit right or being slapped or being battered instead of talking about the coercive control aspect. [00:41:41][69.8]
Speaker 1: [00:41:42] So the guide really tries to give both specific examples and also scripts, and I love that about it. You were really committed to that and and without diving into every bit of it cause, I'm looking at the pictures of this great silhouette with these thought bubbles and again, our designer trust who did this amazing job with it. But it talks about what not to say as well. So, you know, it talks about the things that family and friends might might say in a negative way around disclosures. Why are you provoking him by talking about it? [00:42:13][31.7]
Speaker 2: [00:42:14] Well, we've been we've been also tight because not all of this is negative, right? Some of this is the language of of of adverse advocacy like, girl, you're stronger than that, right? You know that to me, that was always that was always very there was always very problematic and victim blaming. It doesn't have to do with my strength actually, right? You know, it has to do with the fact that I'm in a situation where somebody is choosing to harm me, they're choosing to do things to me. [00:42:40][26.7]
Speaker 1: [00:42:41] But in fact, very strong people can end up being victims and being abused and their sense of their own strength and other people's perception of their strength can actually help trap them. [00:42:50][9.8]
Speaker 2: [00:42:51] Well, I really love how the sexual violence people have reframed the their languaging, whereas when I was in college, we all talked about getting, you know, going and taking a self-defense class, going to bars and groups, watching each other's drinks. And all the pressure was put on us to keep our safety, you know, contained even in a situation where if somebody was hell bent on harming us, they they would find a way to do so. And then we would be questioned as to whether we had been safe enough if we were dressed appropriately, if we were appropriately friended up, you know? And so I really wanted to emulate the change in language that sexual violence people have have given us and show people how to do that with domestic violence. And I think it's really important that we recognize that language is powerful in the way we use. It is powerful. [00:43:49][57.9]
Speaker 1: [00:43:50] And so that's why there's a whole page really of how not to respond to disclosures, right? You know, we have that which is sort of don't ask her what she did to provoke it. Don't try to comply with his demands in order to keep the peace. Don't say to her that that God wants her to make the marriage work in response to the disclosures of abuse. [00:44:09][18.7]
Speaker 2: [00:44:10] Don't tell her to forgive [00:44:11][0.9]
Speaker 1: [00:44:12] all these things. Again, there's this long list, but then [00:44:13][1.9]
Speaker 2: [00:44:14] don't and don't tell her. Don't tell her to leave. You don't actually know the impediments to leaving. Don't know how dangerous leaving can be. [00:44:21][7.0]
Speaker 1: [00:44:21] Right? And then again, with the goal of putting hand hands, this is me this morning. My language is not good. Your diary, you know, is is giving people the tools and the language to to ask questions that are either direct or or less direct, because sometimes you need to approach people where they are. And so we give constructive scripts, you know, that sounds like it must make things harder for you. You know, when somebody says he's popping off or describing some of these behaviors in code, does he understand how he's treating you as? Bad for you and the kids making a comedy again less direct in my relationship, we work to make decisions together, so I'm reading just for those of you who are wondering, I'm reading directly from the guide right now. There's these phrases these scripts are right there in the guide. [00:45:13][52.0]
Speaker 2: [00:45:14] We wanted to give people the language for what to say and how to say it, because in situations where you're worried about your friend or your family member's safety that may feel uncomfortable to you or may feel dangerous, you really do need something to help you to guide you. Some tool and you know this is true of social workers as well. We give we give guidance scripts to social workers because they don't know how to engage perpetrators, oftentimes unless they've been trained, and very few social workers have been trained in engaging perpetrators. So we really we also give guided scripts to social workers for how to engage victims because we want them to learn the language of partnering rather than use language, which could be inhibited to partnering and inhibited to safety. And really, in the end, what we're trying to do is we're trying to validate and acknowledge that the experience that this survivor is going through is damaging and harmful. We're trying to get them to understand that we're a safe space for them, that we can try to assist them and in specific ways. But we want to preserve their sense of freedom and self-determination because it's really offensive to anybody to remove their freedom and self-determination. But it's even more so that people take the freedom and self-determination of victims who are being abused by somebody else and controlled by them, and do the same thing to them on a different level. So we want people to partner with their loved one, right? [00:47:03][109.7]
Speaker 1: [00:47:04] And to me, you're you're speaking to the heart of really the dream that I had with the model, which is I still have, which is that survivors should be able to depend than that when they reach out for help, that they will get a good, strong positive response. And whether that's from from family and friends or from professionals and to me that this guide moves us a step closer to communities where survivors are wrapped around by their loved ones and professionals who are going to be speaking the same language and taking the same approach. And and in that that you can sit if you're a child protection worker, that you could be a survivor sitting with with your worker and your auntie or your your grandmother or your sister or your best friend, and they're going to be in lock. Step together saying similar things. [00:48:02][57.6]
Speaker 2: [00:48:02] How can we help you be safe? [00:48:03][1.1]
Speaker 1: [00:48:04] We don't want to take away your choices and we want you to be safe. We we we're really looking at your husband as the one making the choice and their choices or your partner. Yeah, yeah. So so we move in the last section really in the next section into these very specific concrete steps of being an effective ally and and that these things are going to be around telling that person that only the person who is choosing violence is responsible. Those behaviors and their consequences, right, that she's not causing them. That's right. [00:48:37][33.7]
Speaker 2: [00:48:39] That yeah. And we really I do want to say something about that. We all have to get to a place and this is repeated in the guide over and over again. We all have to get to a place where we understand that nothing that the victim does can explain or excuse away domestic violence or coercive control. It doesn't matter if your loved one or your friend has an addiction, it doesn't matter if they've cheated on their partner. It doesn't matter if they're not the best parent ever. If they, you know, failed at some parenting skill. It doesn't give an excuse for their partner to batter them or to coercively control them. And we have to get there as a society. But getting there as a society means changing that 40 percent failure statistic, where 40 percent of disclosures to friends and family are not only not helpful, but often our retraumatizing and even dangerous. And so I'm really trying to create a network of people of protective people around survivors so that they feel held so that they feel supported to. That they feel heard and they feel acknowledged and that they get the concrete help that they need. And so looking at the places where this breaks down is really important to me, and I know that it breaks down among friends and family because I've experienced it directly. [00:50:15][96.2]
Speaker 1: [00:50:17] So the second ally behavior, you know, the first one is really being clear as a as a family friend that that other person, the person using violence is 100 percent responsible. The second one is learn more about what is being done to her and. And again, these things just so people who aren't familiar with the safe and together model who may not be aware of this, these are really parallel. These are these are strategies and techniques and skills that we teach professionals. So we're really we're really just applying them into this other environment. And so when you ask those questions, you're you're continuing to validate that person's experience. You're you're gaining a deeper understanding of the situation, which is so important if you're going to support them because their choices. What makes sense if you if you don't really understand their situation and it's really easier to misjudge them if you are not understanding of that situation or ask them questions to try to understand and then you're gathering information that can help you work with her around her goals and around safety and everything else. And so we have these little thought bubbles and, you know, that sort of really give people a chance to look at scripts and language. And you know, you're not crazy to want to be safe and treated with respect. It says, you know, and that lets you. Those kind of statements let you jump into asking specific questions about coercive control, trying to understand the impact those behaviors have had on her right and her kids. And then this is really important help you look for patterns of behavior that may be putting her in serious danger, right? Right. And throughout the guide, we're really trying to help people navigate situations that are potentially dangerous for the survivor, right? In terms of escalation of violence. Right. Because when outsiders get involved, sometimes it can be a catalyst for positive change. Right? For instance, a lot of places and I know where we're immigrants are choosing to use violence or are abusive that if they're really concerned about cultivating moving into the mainstream society, the new country, they're and they're often looking for ways to to adapt and be constructive. And so we actually hear that men are like, Oh, I want to be, I want to fit in now. And if that was OK in my country, I get that I can't do it here now. But then some people double down on their prerogative, their entitlement. So outside intervention in those cases could be a catalyst for escalation. So safety of family members yourselves or your loved one, those thoughts are woven through the entire. [00:53:01][164.5]
Speaker 2: [00:53:02] Yeah. Well, you know, so that so so the thing is is I think that as a society, we've been really we've been really hesitant to put tools in the hands of friends and family to allow them to talk about or address domestic violence in a really behaviorally specific way. Because really violent domestic violence offenders are really dangerous and outside interventions can trigger them into violence. But in a bid to not be controlled by that, both as a survivor and as a society. Part of what we need to do is create the language of advocacy, the language of awareness around both the behaviors and then be able to give people tools to understand the danger. Because when we look at the statistics of femicides that in mass shootings that were also related to domestic violence, most of the family members and friends knew that there was a problem and they will retroactively go back and they'll say, Oh yeah, he did this and he did that. I just never thought that he would get to the point where he would murder her or murder the children or murder 22 other people. However, you know it goes. But they knew they didn't know how to respond to it. They behaved as if it was uncomfortably normal. We're just going to ignore that he just kicked her out of the house in the freezing cold and threatened to make her sleep out there. Somehow, that's normal. Somehow that's become an issue which is supposed to be private when that is a dangerous behavior that shows a high level of disregard for somebody's well-being and as a true sign that that person is potentially going to murder somebody. But we haven't taught family and friends to really look at those behaviors from that viewpoint, partially because it is scary. It's hard. We want to leave it in the hands of professionals sometimes, but also because we don't trust family and friends to be able to respond appropriately or safely. So not giving them the tools just really keeps the danger ongoing and high levels without us addressing it as a society. [00:55:17][135.8]
Speaker 1: [00:55:19] And we give family friends some tips about how to assess their own safety and the potential escalation that may happen in response to their involvement. So those are those are directly in it. That was really important for me to see that those were in there. Yes. The third allied behavior is tell them all the things that they're doing right. And and this is really consistent with the rest of the model, which is we're strength based, we're really focused on. Just because you're a domestic violence driver doesn't mean that you can't be a good parent. Right? And in fact, you may be even working harder and even better at being a parent than other people than other people. And we give family, friends, scripts. About how to speak in validating ways and also identify strengths and see them, and to me, that's always been really important. I think people often look very one dimensional and say, Oh, she's a victim. And that's what they focus on versus the 10 things she's doing, right? The how hard she's working to compensate for what's going on [00:56:22][63.3]
Speaker 2: [00:56:23] and how hard she's even. Or, you know, that person is moving against their own trauma just to exist daily in the world in a responsible human way. You know, that deserves credit, particularly when you've been living in the torture of coercive control or you've been severely abused by another human being. [00:56:42][18.9]
Speaker 1: [00:56:43] And so, you know, we try to put this into context when we help people identify strengths. There's this long list, you know, it's half a page, double columns, you know, round things like keeping a job. Despite his efforts to sabotage her work, pretending to friends that nothing is wrong, so he doesn't punish her for talking to others, telling her friends about his abuse so they can provide support. And this part of it is is I like this part too, because they write these items are side by side, so you can see, like in one situation, getting a job, despite his efforts to sabotage her work in one situation is her protective efforts quitting her job so he doesn't target her coworkers. Yeah, is also a protective effort, right? It's really important. Understand that protection and strength and coping and resistance is not one size fits all right, right? [00:57:36][53.0]
Speaker 2: [00:57:36] It takes a lot of different forms, right? And it it's it's contingent on the situation itself, and it's often not recognized because of our own gender double standards as well. So we address that in the book. We talk about what protective parenting efforts to look like that often we do not recognize because we expect that mothers are going to do all of the mother and all of the nurturing, all of that, the emotional and physical caretaking of children. And that has really profound impacts for our expectations of victims who are female and survivors who are female, particularly within systems like child protection. [00:58:19][42.7]
Speaker 1: [00:58:20] So the last ally behavior, you know, is there's so much in here. I'm looking at it and trying to figure out what to focus on, and we're trying to keep this to two 45 minutes or an hour, and [00:58:33][12.2]
Speaker 2: [00:58:34] we're almost done. [00:58:35][0.9]
Speaker 1: [00:58:35] Now, I know, I know we do our best. We like to talk and and there's so much good stuff here, and we're so excited about it. The last one is is our behavior. Number four is offer practical support and the why. And you know, in this ally behavior section, there's the why and the how it's broken down. It's we designed to be really user friendly and to the why practical support can help improve your loved one situation. It comes in many forms depending on the person's pattern who chooses violence, your loved ones hopes and fears, the practical situation of resources and your and your willingness ability to help as the ally, your assistance at whatever level and whatever form can really make a difference in the physical and emotional health and safety of your loved one and their children. So this is where we offer guidance to family and friends about what can you do? What are you willing to do right? There's a there's a little bit of a checklist, you know, which encourages people to reflect are you willing and able to provide emotional support through listing validation? You know, so we go through all those things are practical concrete supports. So, so in this this fourth, this fourth item, it's really a guide to to love ones about how to be concrete supports. [00:59:59][84.3]
Speaker 2: [01:00:00] Yeah, it was really important that we offer concrete behavioral information. Concrete supports concrete strategies just to to put a pin in it. There is a documentation tool that is going to just being developed right now that is also going to be part of the friends and family alike guide. And in part because, you know, the mapping tool that safe and together uses, which is really behaviorally focused, is so successful in the in the professional fields of social work and behavioral therapy that I wanted friends and family members to be able to understand how to document the behavioral patterns of coercive control and domestic violence, particularly as they impact child and family functioning, so that they would be able to be empowered to provide professionals with their own. Advance towards the behaviors of their perpetrator, [01:01:04][64.1]
Speaker 1: [01:01:05] and that that was something that got got that kind of got inside out of the. [01:01:11][5.9]
Speaker 2: [01:01:12] But I won't let David forget I will. [01:01:14][1.9]
Speaker 1: [01:01:15] And the last thing is just to wrap up. There's a lot in here. And yeah, including how to get support if your loved one of somebody is being abused. Yeah. And how to sort out your feelings about the person who chooses violence and you deal with if if the victim is using substances so we can't go into all the bits, [01:01:37][22.2]
Speaker 2: [01:01:37] even if what if you don't like the behaviors? Yeah, exactly. And we really we really don't spare anything. [01:01:42][5.3]
Speaker 1: [01:01:43] We want this to be as real as possible. You worked hard, you consulted with other survivors, lots [01:01:50][6.4]
Speaker 2: [01:01:50] of other survivors. [01:01:50][0.4]
Speaker 1: [01:01:51] And so if anything, you've heard about this is his car, your attention. [01:01:56][5.0]
Speaker 2: [01:01:57] You know, some of the things that I'm hearing from survivors, I'm hearing how validating this is, which really makes me happy because it means that I've hit a center of their experience, right? You know what I would, I would hope, is that it would feel hopeful right to a lot of survivors to see they're to see their experience with the failure of others and how it impacted them, and that we're trying to help people do better, that we're giving them the tools to do better. And I would even encourage, you know, not just friends and family who is suspect that a loved one is being abused. But quite frankly, if you're in a coercive controlling relationship or you're in a an abusive relationship and your friends and family are failing, print this off and give it to them. You know, if you're a victim survivor and you need support and people are not supporting you in the way that you need, then use this to help them better. [01:02:57][59.9]
Speaker 1: [01:02:58] One of my favorite comments has been so far, somebody wrote on Twitter. They felt like it was speaking directly to them. Yeah, that was. That meant a lot to me. And then just and I've got a quote from a research colleague in In Australia who read it and Monash University, and she said it's it's in depth yet straightforward, user friendly and applied, and that's really what we were going for. So if you want it right now, I'll say this, you know, go to safety other inside.com and you can download it right there. Yes, if you want to learn more about the model and take online courses, go to our virtual academy, which is Academy Dot. Save it together. Inside.com and keep listening to the podcast and sharing it with the people and and subscribe to it on your favorite platform if you're listening to it through both sprout. You can get the sell off of Apple, you can get it off of Spotify and get off of Google Podcasts. Yeah, all those things are there [01:04:07][69.3]
Speaker 2: [01:04:08] and the map and the tool, the documentation tool for the friends and family alike. I just coming there is a men's toolkit that is actually coming as well. David hasn't mentioned that yet, but on the other side of this is some perpetrator intervention for friends and family as well, that we're working on recognizing that perpetrators, people who choose violence are often people that we love and that we know. And so giving strategies in the hands of friends and family and strategies for behavioral change for perpetrators is a really important aspect to this as well. [01:04:46][38.1]
Speaker 1: [01:04:47] All right. All right. I think we're out. [01:04:48][1.9]
Speaker 2: [01:04:49] We're out till next time. And be, well, everyone. [01:04:49][0.0]
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