Speaker 1: [00:00:01] OK, we're back, we're back.  [00:00:02][1.2]

Speaker 2: [00:00:03] Wow, this has been a while.  [00:00:04][1.4]

Speaker 1: [00:00:05] Yeah, we've been we've been tired.  [00:00:07][1.4]

Speaker 2: [00:00:08] Yeah, the pandemic has been kicking our asses in a lot of ways. It hasn't led to a lot of creativity and a lot of  [00:00:14][6.8]

Speaker 1: [00:00:17] time and ability  [00:00:17][0.5]

Speaker 2: [00:00:18] and ability to focus on this podcast. We're back to you listening to partnered with a survivor. I'm David Mandel, the executive director of the Save and Together Institute.  [00:00:26][8.1]

Speaker 1: [00:00:27] And I'm Ruth Jones Mandel and I'm the e-learning and communications manager, and I'm your wife.  [00:00:32][5.2]

Speaker 2: [00:00:33] Yes, you are. And this is this is a be an interesting episode. While we're in Australia in the end of February, which seems like a long, long time.  [00:00:43][10.6]

Speaker 1: [00:00:43] Oh, it's it seems like so long ago  [00:00:45][1.9]

Speaker 2: [00:00:46] and now that we were approached by somebody who said to us, Could you do an episode on relationship dynamics when one person is a trauma survivor and we have spent the last five months talking to you about that topic and thinking about it because it's it's fairly intimate. And while we try to carve out a space here, that's both professional and personal. This is, I guess, a little bit more.  [00:01:11][25.1]

Speaker 1: [00:01:12] Yeah, this was a really interesting ask because this was, you know, from an Aboriginal woman who wanted us specifically to talk about how to deal with trauma inside of a relationship. And so we have been chewing on it for for months and months now and kind of came up with a plan for how to talk on sort of a plan. This one might be a little bit rambly, but we would love in the end for this to achieve, you know, something that couples can use to talk about this topic, right? When you've grown up with childhood abuse, child abuse, child sexual abuse, you know, domestic violence or experience that in your past, there is no way that that trauma that you have experienced isn't going to impacts your immediate relationship in some way, shape or form. And this leads to a lot of shame in the bodies of survivors who believe that they're damaged and they're broken and sometimes go on to relationships where a partner can't manage or deal with the reality of that person. And that feels very harmful yet again because it makes you feel isolated and it makes you feel alone and it makes you feel like you're not worthy of that connected open partnership and love because of the actions that somebody else did to you, right?  [00:02:58][106.8]

Speaker 2: [00:02:59] And so before we dove into our relationship because we're really going to open that up a little bit here, I want to be clear that this is a conversation that isn't about a current situation where you're being abused. So let me say this little bit differently because we talked about this earlier. One is if you've got a trauma history, that's no excuse for somebody abusing you, right? Right. And I think that a lot of times survivors can struggle with that. Somehow, I'm damaged goods. You know, I don't, you know, I have to settle, you know, there's lots of things that may be in there, but that's one part. And we were talking before the podcast, and we want to make it clear that if you're a trauma survivor and somebody is constantly doing things that trigger your trauma, they may be being abusive to you, right? And and so that's where we're we're talking about this, you know, in the context of the the stresses and strains in a relatively healthy relationship versus what to do if you're a trauma survivor who is being abused again? Right.  [00:04:06][67.6]

Speaker 1: [00:04:07] Because if you're living in coercive control, it is inevitable that if you disclose your traumatic past to a partner, they will use that trauma against you. They will tell you you're broken and they will tell you that you are wrong and they will tell you you're crazy and and that is just being re abused again. So be very, very clear. So if that's happening in your relationship, you are being abused and that person is choosing to use your pain to harm and control you. And that's not OK.  [00:04:41][33.8]

Speaker 2: [00:04:41] They're taking your trust in them. You're sharing about your history and your most vulnerable pieces and and turning it against you. So, right, so that's you know, and we hope that this conversation is a contrast to that. And that's you hear sort of what and  [00:04:56][14.5]

Speaker 1: [00:04:56] that should never, ever, ever happen. Really, period that. A very that's a very firm boundary. Right? OK, so we've established that you're not in an abusive relationship. That's right. We are actually in a partnership. And so what does that look like for you when trauma comes up in me? How does that feel in you and how does that challenge you?  [00:05:24][27.6]

Speaker 2: [00:05:24] Well, I think, you know, like we talked about earlier, you know, it's a lot of things and a lot of different areas that sort of your experience of what other people have done to you. It's something I have and I have seen navigates this, even though the words are sort of like because it doesn't feel like it's sort of something I'm doing for you. It's just being in relationship with you and seeing you and seeing your history. But having to work, think through things. Mm hmm. And and what that one of the first things I think it came up was, you know, my inclination we got together was, I want to know your family, right? And and that's the challenge. Is there? Yeah. And and I was like, OK, you know, yeah, your father should come up and you know, and you you kept talking about how fraught that relationship was for lots of reasons. And so many with your with your mom and tell me where you grew up. I was wanting to see where you grew up is natural. I want to be close to you. You wanted to be. Well, that's  [00:06:32][67.9]

Speaker 1: [00:06:33] I mean, that's how I felt about you. I mean, I got to meet your family. I got to see your family home. I got to to be interactive with the people that you grew up and loved. And that's a very, just a very natural desire. Right.  [00:06:47][14.4]

Speaker 2: [00:06:48] So so I had to I had to listen to you and hear, you know, this is not going back to where I grew up. Is it a place of happiness for me? Yeah. Even though you said it's beautiful and they're really beautiful parts to in terms of nature. Yes. Yes, yes. And and I had to listen and say, OK, that's not something I'm going to experience, you know, even though I wanted to see that part of your life. Yeah, the beautiful land and stuff like that. And so I think there just was there was just a simple I'd say on the, you know, sort of like, OK. This won't feel good to her,  [00:07:25][36.8]

Speaker 1: [00:07:25] but you did meet my family. And though we've never gone down to the the Colts compound, you have been to Kentucky and you have met parts of my family. Right? And in doing that, that was for a family wedding. Actually, in doing that, you did have to directly experience my trauma because it was in that context where some of that came up.  [00:07:55][29.9]

Speaker 2: [00:07:56] Right?  [00:07:56][0.0]

Speaker 1: [00:07:56] And how did that impact you and how did you deal with that?  [00:08:00][3.9]

Speaker 2: [00:08:03] I feel very protective of you can feel very, sort of like, how can I be here for you in this place? You know, and and I also took it in as information, I guess, you know, interactions with your family. Hmm. Yes. Like, OK, this this gives me a feel for what for what's going on is going on. And and so I think it was I mean, it was good. I'm glad we went.  [00:08:28][25.1]

Speaker 1: [00:08:29] I think it's really interesting because I have experienced another relationship or other relationships where, you know, I was in partnership with somebody and was living under coercive control again. Mm hmm. And the difference between the response that you give and the response that happens when you're in a coercively controlling relationship was that I was supposed to suck it up. Mm hmm. And I was supposed to just pretend like everything was OK and go anyway because it was a place that my partner enjoyed going. Mm hmm. But every time I went, it would be very traumatic, right? Again, and it was just the hard and difficult. So, you know, being able to listen to the desire of a survivor to distance themselves from family can often challenge parts of us where we believe that we should have contact with family or we should be loyal. And you're very family oriented person. Right? You know, and I felt very grateful that you didn't treat me as if I wasn't loyal or loyal enough right to my family.  [00:09:49][79.9]

Speaker 2: [00:09:49] I didn't post my values. I did not. I didn't put my values. And I'm also thinking about, you know, letting you take the lead in how you talk to the kids about things about. Like math and why, you know, why, why math is hard for you, right, it's sort of this may part of what I think that,  [00:10:07][18.1]

Speaker 1: [00:10:08] yeah, that's a tricky people  [00:10:09][1.0]

Speaker 2: [00:10:09] who are partnered with survivors need to hear is that it's in these it shows up in these really interesting, weird, interesting, weird ways which you know you have.  [00:10:18][9.1]

Speaker 1: [00:10:19] This is actually, you know, I think you just stumbled on a really good one with that because because let's give some behavioral content because people won't understand this without a behavioral explanation. And that is is that I was severely abused in the course of being homeschooled for math, what beaten and, you know, called horrible names and told that I was stupid and I didn't was incapable in the in the process of this. Probably when I was about, I don't know. I must've been about six years old, seven years old. It did it. It made me really shut down my ability to do math, and it's given me a lot of shame throughout my life. So fast forward to us being together and my son is struggling with math. Right, right, right. And prior to him, our daughter struggled with math because I think this actually started coming up with her, right? And and it would make me very uncomfortable and ashamed that I couldn't sit down at the table with my kids and help them through basic equations. And my, you know, my shame would really come up in various frustrated ways. Right. And you and I had to have a conversation about it because I wasn't quite ready to reveal to my kids the reasons why.  [00:11:44][85.7]

Speaker 2: [00:11:45] That's right. That's what I was thinking about.  [00:11:46][1.1]

Speaker 1: [00:11:47] I was staying silent about why, because I never wanted to impact their relationship with their grandparents. That's how sensitive I was to to the fact that their relationship with their grandparents was different than my relationship had been as a child. And you knew that, and maybe you disagreed with that strategy, but you honored it. You never in the course of of even them making fun of me because they did a few times. They make fun of me about math, which, you know, would hurt me, and you would never reveal that you'd always say, Hey, you know, will you go ahead and explain what your strategy was?  [00:12:31][44.4]

Speaker 2: [00:12:32] Well, it was. It was listening and following your lead about, you know, and hearing your your attempt to protect them from the history that they hadn't experienced directly. Right? And that they, you know, and then sort of also want to support you. And at some point, you know, it was hurting you for them not to know. Right. And we we had lots of back and forth discussions about sort of what when you tell them how much you tell them, if you tell them right, you know, you know, and as they get older, I have a sense that there's more that they can handle. And you know, and that and that keeping that secret was stressing you out. Right? Your stress?  [00:13:16][44.3]

Speaker 1: [00:13:16] Right, right.  [00:13:17][0.4]

Speaker 2: [00:13:18] And so but it was a dialog. At least it felt like a dialog to me. No, it  [00:13:22][3.9]

Speaker 1: [00:13:22] definitely was time. It definitely was. And and your sort of neutrality where you were able to say, Listen, if you do it, how you need to do it. But I can see that this is really stressing you out. You can see that this is this is still causing you pain.  [00:13:42][20.7]

Speaker 2: [00:13:43] And I think in some sense, I didn't want you to to. You were still absorbing the pain of what was done to you in some ways and twisting yourself up in knots for good reason. Know you went to protect your kids, right? But they were asking. They want to know, right? You know? And so,  [00:13:59][16.0]

Speaker 1: [00:14:00] yes, so eventually I did. Yeah, I did tell them in just very plain words that were appropriate for them that as a child, I was hurt in the course of learning math. And that that's why I can't do math very  [00:14:15][14.9]

Speaker 2: [00:14:15] well, and I can't remember them teasing you anymore about it.  [00:14:17][2.2]

Speaker 1: [00:14:18] No stop sign. They stopped, but they knew it was a sensitive subject. So it's it's interesting because that kind of hits on a couple of different things. It hits on, you know, you were very aware that the kids were behaving a certain way in response to my trauma. Mm hmm. And you could see that I was trying to achieve some. I was trying to protect them, and I was probably still trying to protect myself. Mm hmm. I don't know. A lot of survivors don't like to talk about the content of their trauma. And so, you know, you approached it in a way that gave room for me to make my own decisions without shaming me, but letting me know that. You can see that it was creating this dynamic and that it was still hurting me, right? And that was a beautiful strategy actually for help, for helping me to to sit there and think about it myself and then say, you know, yeah, they're ready for me to tell them, I'm ready to say it this way. And I was in control of that right, which made me comfortable, right? Right.  [00:15:23][65.2]

Speaker 2: [00:15:25] So we we made a list of things we wanted to talk about and and the next thing on our list is sort of the way your experience is. Again, the language is so weird, you know, have changed me for the better and and and change my work and deep my work. And you know, and what that means to listen to survivors, you know, and you are our guide, which I'm really proud of. I'm proud of it too. You know, is your baby and it's your idea. And that was born out of negative experiences you had. Yeah, right.  [00:16:05][40.4]

Speaker 1: [00:16:07] And and there is a lot of other survivors information in there as well, because that's a that's a collection of of of experiences. I I just want to make clear that's not all me. And that there was a lot of people that really contributed their their insights into their own trauma and to their own abuse and into their needs into that guide.  [00:16:32][25.6]

Speaker 2: [00:16:33] So just totally and the inspiration for it with yours? Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, I think that you came to it, that we should do this just like you do and said, we should do this podcast. You know, I said yes both times, and I think it's it's overall you've injected richer. I don't know what the word is. Understanding is part of it, but richer sort of commitment. That's part of it because both those things were there. I mean, the work has always been survivor centered for me from the very beginning. Yeah, and I've listened to lots of survivors and talked to them and gotten feedback. And when I was doing direct service work, their voices were very important. And, you know, as we develop the model, listening to survivors is very important. And so that's not new, but there's something new about it. You know, when it's my partner saying certain things and the intimacy of of the experience of living with you. Mm hmm. And listening to you and. And similarly, we we we discuss that sort of an interaction we had at one of our conferences where we weren't able. We've been trying to get survivors voices at every one of our conferences for a long time and been relatively successful. And you had an experience at your first conference. I think it  [00:17:56][83.1]

Speaker 1: [00:17:56] was at the first conference. Yeah, yeah.  [00:17:58][2.0]

Speaker 2: [00:17:58] Yeah. Can you say something about that?  [00:18:00][1.7]

Speaker 1: [00:18:00] Well, you know it. If you've ever attended a safe and together conference, you know that it is. It is an amazing thing. And there was so much amazing is there? But as a survivor, I sat in the in the in the workshops and I felt very objectified by the experience because everybody was talking about me and, you know, not me, but you know what I'm saying? Talking about survivors, talking about victims, breaking them down, even though you know the work is very perpetrator focused and a lot of time and effort goes into trying to get professionals to refocus their professional self on the actions of perpetrators. Right. We still haven't gotten away from this assessment of survivors and victims. That just feels so. Objectifying and damaging, right? Because we're not broken,  [00:19:06][65.7]

Speaker 2: [00:19:07] many  [00:19:07][0.0]

Speaker 1: [00:19:08] people chose to do things to us. And we're studied in. Our trauma is studied and why do they stay? You know, it's just  [00:19:16][8.3]

Speaker 2: [00:19:17] it gets to be side the bad side. Oh my gosh.  [00:19:19][2.3]

Speaker 1: [00:19:20] It just it gets to be so much. And and so I remember we were up in the hotel room and I woke up at three o'clock in the morning. There's a lot of truth waking up at three o'clock in the morning and telling David what to do sometimes. And I woke you up and we were both exhausted because the conference had just finished and I, I had been crying and I said, You can never have a conference again without the voices of survivors because I feel so objectified right now. Well, number one, it was three o'clock in the morning.  [00:19:53][32.9]

Speaker 2: [00:19:54] Not a lot of good things happen at three o'clock in the morning, I have to say so.  [00:19:57][3.0]

Speaker 1: [00:19:58] Number two, you know, you could have felt really defensive. And I don't know, did you feel defensive?  [00:20:04][5.5]

Speaker 2: [00:20:05] Probably a little bit because we I felt like we had tried, you know, and we'd worked hard. And you know, and I think that's when those kind of classic examples where, you know, the trying matters, it's important, but it doesn't, doesn't negate your experience. That's right. You know, you had a real experience of being there, right? No matter how hard we tried. Look, the fact that you were there without the more and  [00:20:24][19.4]

Speaker 1: [00:20:24] more drama workshops I went to, the more and more I wanted to sink into my seat because I felt like I'd really like the voice, a voice of a survivor here on the other side, you know, just and I and I don't believe that you actually can have any type of meaningful systems change right or any meaningful type of shift in cultural attitudes unless the voices of survivors are valued.  [00:20:51][26.8]

Speaker 2: [00:20:52] And I think probably that was one of the starting points for for our conversations about how little or how much space there is professional for professionals to disclose their personal histories of being abused. And I think one of the reasons we decided to do this podcast was we wanted to give more permission. We wanted to model the sort of professional personal space because we think one of the barriers is to to change is to is people not feeling safe enough. Yeah, it's like both a cause and effect, I think, to talk about their own personal histories of of being.  [00:21:35][43.0]

Speaker 1: [00:21:35] Well, I still get reports on my Twitter feed. Yeah. Of survivors that are denied employment at agencies because they publicly disclosed prior abuse, which is which is absolutely insane, right? So, you know, we have a sickness and the sickness is not believing survivors and really looking at the trauma of survivors as being some fundamental personality flaw that we cannot deal with. And that's horrible. That's just Ri- abusing people.  [00:22:06][30.8]

Speaker 2: [00:22:07] And you you have, you know, so in this part of survivors voices you while your formal title as communications manager and e-learning manager, you know that you started seeking out survivors, speakers and survivor. You know that engaging  [00:22:24][17.0]

Speaker 1: [00:22:25] and survivor collaborations  [00:22:26][1.1]

Speaker 2: [00:22:27] with survivor collaborations and made that a priority for you. And for me, I saw that as only enriching us, I guess, and I feel really grateful for that right now.  [00:22:39][11.7]

Speaker 1: [00:22:39] That's amazing. It's amazing for you to hear because for me to hear, because I I really believe that, you know, the the seeing and acknowledging of people is one of the most powerful ways to help anybody heal. Fundamentally, as human beings, we do just want to be seen right, but we don't want to be seen as damaged because of the choices that people have made to harm us. And you have that firm boundary in your psyche where a lot of people in this world don't. They culturally have to undo a lot of conditioning where you're not going to blame somebody for the choices that somebody else imposed on them?  [00:23:27][47.8]

Speaker 2: [00:23:28] But that didn't. You know what? I want to say that anybody who's listening that didn't come, I guess, by accident in some sense, I, you know, spent years working with abusive man. And if you had any chance of doing good work with them, you had to really confront your own attitudes and beliefs. Mm hmm. So I think, you know, we live just like we live in cultures that are racist or homophobic, that kind of are kind of that disease that pervade they get into the cracks. Into everybody's minds, right, or you know, and the same thing is true about sexism and patriarchy and misogyny.  [00:24:06][38.2]

Speaker 1: [00:24:07] I say we all we all grew up in the soup.  [00:24:08][1.7]

Speaker 2: [00:24:09] We grew up in the soup. We grew up in the city.  [00:24:11][1.4]

Speaker 1: [00:24:11] Yeah, we have to undo the conditioning.  [00:24:12][1.7]

Speaker 2: [00:24:13] And I sort of think that, you know, anybody who's partnered with somebody who's somebody who's who's a trauma survivor, there's no shame. And I think it's important to acknowledge where you've been impacted by sexism and misogyny or or other forms of oppressive thinking. And so you may get caught in loops in your own thinking. And so it's not, you know, it's not just magic. I think it's sort of you have to work at it. Yeah, I think that there's some invitation to people to part with with with survivors to look at their own sexism or look at their own attitudes and where they might have thoughts about blaming the victim and to kind of really work through those. And so I appreciate you saying, you know, I have, you know, this sort of clarity. But by luck or by intention or by driver, well, or something else, I spent years kind of cultivating that right there thinking, right? You know, so now it's second nature, which I'm glad I'm glad to, you know? Yeah. Also, I just want to say that you're your survivor voice. You bring that just want to be listened to, heard, seen voice to our our our conversations about anti-racism and other forms of institutional violence. And you know, your your your Twitter feed as you haven't seen. Can you tell people what your Twitter feed is?  [00:25:45][91.6]

Speaker 1: [00:25:46] My Twitter handle survivor's strong three  [00:25:48][2.0]

Speaker 2: [00:25:49] survivors strong three, right? You know that you, you know you really.  [00:25:53][3.7]

Speaker 1: [00:25:53] My voice is very different than yours.  [00:25:54][1.4]

Speaker 2: [00:25:55] Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's again, it's just that part. You know, it's more raw. It's more direct.  [00:26:00][5.5]

Speaker 1: [00:26:01] It's well, sometimes it's angry.  [00:26:02][1.3]

Speaker 2: [00:26:03] It's an emergency,  [00:26:03][0.5]

Speaker 1: [00:26:04] because the one thing that I really dislike is I dislike the cultural sort of habit of wanting a good victim, wanting people to be a good victim and that what  [00:26:17][12.4]

Speaker 2: [00:26:17] their victims like polite.  [00:26:18][0.6]

Speaker 1: [00:26:18] Be polite, be nice. Don't be angry. Don't ever have the behaviors of a trauma. If you're an addict or you've been suicidal. Right now, society's going to write you off and say, Oh, you don't. Nobody should ever believe you, right? Where, oh, they have not even looked at the reality of of why that addiction and why that suicidality came to be. Right? It's terrible. It's horrible. It's a it's a very abusive way of thinking. And so, so yeah.  [00:26:50][32.4]

Speaker 2: [00:26:51] So you've been an advocate of inward trauma informed. If we're survivors, senator, we're saying that that that means we have to be create more space or allow more space or be open to the full range of reaction, somebody. That's right.  [00:27:03][12.3]

Speaker 1: [00:27:04] That's right. We can't we can't be afraid of angry survivors, right? And a lot of times that happens to really impact women of color. Right. You know, I'm I'm a white woman, right? If I were a woman who is black and I was in the child protective system and I was angry because of how I was being treated, being blamed for my partner's violence. Having my family potentially ripped apart because of the choices of a person who chose to harm me and and the children, and I was pissed off at that and distrustful. I know how this system would treat me. And you know how this system would treat me. And so I feel like part of the the the human problem we have, which is a personal problem in relationships too. And this is how we got to this because the personal is practice, right? That's just how it works. If you can't handle the anger of survivors, if you can't handle the fact that they're going to call people out on the things that they're doing that are still harmful, and that means calling social workers out, that means calling systems out. Right? That means talking about where you're failing and where you're hurting us. And that essentially a conversation that I had with you in that hotel room may, even though I didn't say I was saying, you're hurting me, right?  [00:28:33][89.5]

Speaker 2: [00:28:34] This hurts that there's nobody here.  [00:28:36][1.9]

Speaker 1: [00:28:36] There's nobody here. There's no way you were able to listen. Right? And you were like, I tried, you know, we've been trying. We couldn't find somebody, and you were able to hear and acknowledge that even though you tried not having that element of the voices of survivors, there had an impact on me and probably had an impact on other people to  [00:28:59][22.3]

Speaker 2: [00:28:59] be able to write it with inspiration. I think in part for this this podcast, the you know what this makes me think about it was the other thing we spoke about as we kind of pre-game this this podcast, which was that, you know, it's it's work to hear those things kind of hold, not react and maybe breathe through some things, you know, my own insecurities or doubts or, you know, or defensiveness  [00:29:31][31.3]

Speaker 1: [00:29:32] or desire to be good. You know, I think that's another thing. People come in to to the social work as wanting to help other people. And when they feel over and over again that they're harming other people, either you continue along in that can become very defensive and entrenched, or you're one of the people that say, we have to fix this. Something has to change.  [00:29:57][24.9]

Speaker 2: [00:29:58] And I see that all the way away over any kind of change. And in some ways, you know where people have to accept around, like domestic violence practice or domestic violence or foreign practice, they accept. I thought I was doing the right thing, but maybe I wasn't as good at that as I thought I was. Or maybe I was doing hurtful things without realizing it. And and I and I think for me, the what I try to do is, is listen, not personalize things that aren't personal and not disconnect. And I think that sort of I think that's the thing for me. That's the kind of formula almost, I don't know, you know, it's sort of like it's because I think there's that. It can become too easy to abandon somebody  [00:30:45][47.5]

Speaker 1: [00:30:46] or just shut down  [00:30:47][0.5]

Speaker 2: [00:30:47] emotionally, or it's right, which would be abandonment, you know, and say, OK, how do I stay present in all the messiness of this? And you know, and it's.  [00:30:56][9.2]

Speaker 1: [00:30:57] And on the other side of that, actually, and this is this is me speaking to my survivors  [00:31:02][5.3]

Speaker 2: [00:31:03] right to do it.  [00:31:04][1.4]

Speaker 1: [00:31:06] There is a lot of work that has to go into learning how not to blame a partner for the emotional content of the past. And that means, again, when we started the conversation, we talked about if your trauma is being triggered all the time in a relationship, that's probably not a good relationship for you to be in. But there are times when my fears and my trauma could lead me to to blame you to, you know, accuse you to, you know, to do this or to, you know, feel insecure or whatever the feeling is. And I've had to learn. I put myself in counseling when I was as soon as I got away from my family when I was 17. So I've been in counseling on and off since then, but I had to learn to not blame my partner for it, for the trauma that I that I had. And sometimes that gets messy and that gets sticky because definitely again, we'll go back to the hotel room. I blamed you. I was like, Dude, you hurt me, right? And you felt defensive in that because you didn't directly intend to. It wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't like you hurting me. But I can see that that can be very challenging for people in relationship and even for professionals. You know, when they get that, that blame coming at them from survivors, right? And really what it's it's saying, if you want to translate it in your head to something more benign is saying, I really don't feel safe right now. There's something happening that's making me feel unsafe. And sometimes I'll have enough awareness to know exactly what that is and to work it out really well. And sometimes I won't make. And the places where I don't are, the places where I have to do the most work. If I don't recognize why it is that I'm blaming you or why it is that I'm doing this or doing that, that's coming out of my trauma, then that's a place that I need to really sit with myself with. And one of the strategies that I use in order to ascertain if right now there's a relationship boundary that I need to make, which we have to do sometimes in relationships or if it's something that's coming from my past is I really sit down and I say, Is there anything that has happened that I really need to address now in this moment? Or is this something I'm afraid of, right? Or is this something that's touched a piece of me that's really part of the past?  [00:33:50][164.3]

Speaker 2: [00:33:51] And you're really good at that. I mean, I have to say that, and I think it's the mirror for me is is when when you you have been blaming or been angry, which hasn't been a lot. Mm.  [00:34:04][13.5]

Speaker 1: [00:34:06] That's good.  [00:34:06][0.3]

Speaker 2: [00:34:06] You know, it's been a lot, you know, is I what I do on my side is I say, have I done things to warrant this? You know, what have I done a lot of bad behavior? What if I say, right? What if I said, What have I done having broken some agreement? Have I done something wrong? Hmm. And I think, you know, the important thing is, you know, there's been times when I looked and said, No, I don't, I haven't. In bad times, I said, I maybe I have done this or, you know, I was like that. I acknowledged we didn't have a problem with it. And I might say to you, I've said a few times, this isn't fair. I don't deserve you blaming me, right? And I think again, I hope I did that gently and clearly and cleanly. Yeah.  [00:34:49][42.4]

Speaker 1: [00:34:49] You know, I mean, you're really very skilled at partnering in in theory and in real life, right? And so I think that those those skills actually can be translated from again from a personal relationship into a professional place. Right? That's right. If you practice this in your own personal space, right? You're going to be able to bring this to your practice space.  [00:35:15][26.5]

Speaker 2: [00:35:16] And I think of what I say to to workers around survivors who have real addiction issues is you need to directly address her addiction with her right? Because if you don't, then even if it's been caused by abuse. Hmm. But she's she's become addicted. That's become something she's trapped in. You need to actually work all that stuff with her. Right. But in no way you should you suggest that somehow that means you deserve being abused or she's a bad person, or it's an excuse for a pardon to get abusive to her and it actually helps those conversations makes them stronger around the addiction, makes them stronger. Right? But I don't, you know, it's it's I think I what I want people to hear is I don't think of your trauma history as a problem, right? There needs to be fixed. Yeah. You know, I don't think of it as something that that that makes you less than or makes you a project or  [00:36:20][63.9]

Speaker 1: [00:36:21] something needy  [00:36:22][0.7]

Speaker 2: [00:36:23] or needy or that, you know, sort of the idea that you have to be saved. I don't think look easy. You have to be saved from anything, right? Right now, my job to save you.  [00:36:30][7.8]

Speaker 1: [00:36:31] Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, I just I would encourage people to think about places where their trauma history has come up or where their partner's trauma history has come up and what that looks like and what those behaviors look like and really set themselves in the space of, you know, if you're the survivor, was that information coming from the past? Was it a fear of the future or was it a boundary, a relationship boundary that you needed to draw in the immediate moment? And then if you're the person experiencing it, you know how how well did you do that at listening, at not taking responsibility for the emotions of your partner, allowing your partner the space to be able to feel whatever feelings they needed to feel if it was directly related to past trauma? Remember one thing that's really important versus current versus current circumstances, right? And if it was current circumstances and it was muddled, you know, and you you were being blamed or you were being impacted because the person's trauma was coming up, you know, how did you manage that? How how did you draw a firm and clear boundary for yourself? That was healthy, that was kind, that was loving, but at the same time made clear to your partner that you understood that you were able to be there for them in their trauma. But you did not want to be blamed for it. Right. That's that's the that's the meat and potatoes as this whole podcast.  [00:38:01][89.3]

Speaker 2: [00:38:01] And I'm thinking about the video. I said, you're early in, in in our relationship. You know  [00:38:09][7.3]

Speaker 1: [00:38:10] which one?  [00:38:10][0.3]

Speaker 2: [00:38:11] The West Wing one?  [00:38:11][0.6]

Speaker 1: [00:38:11] Oh, yeah. Yes. You know, do you want to mention what that is? He's going to cry now and the OK? Yes.  [00:38:18][6.7]

Speaker 2: [00:38:20] You know, it was it was really for those who I'm a Big West Wing fan, which is a US based TV show from, I don't know, the early 2000s, I think. And I think it's it can be watch on Netflix now in case people want to watch it. Yeah, but it's it. It's it's two characters who in a long term relationship that's that's kind of been pushed push pull. And, you know, it's at a critical moment. And the guy says to her, You know, I'm not, you know, you're not going to leave me because I'm not that scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I says, it's OK for you to be afraid. Yeah.  [00:38:55][35.7]

Speaker 1: [00:38:57] It's amazing and powerful what happens when you give people permission to feel and you don't take responsibility for it, but you just say it's OK, you can be afraid and I'm not scary. I'm not. I'm not going anywhere, right?  [00:39:16][18.7]

Speaker 2: [00:39:17] Yeah, it's OK for you to have monsters. Yeah, I'm not going to be one of them. Yeah, you know, but it's OK for you to be afraid because you've had monsters. Yeah. You know, and so anyway, that, you know, just that that comes back to me.  [00:39:31][14.6]

Speaker 1: [00:39:32] So I hope that that's this podcast will help people to understand a little bit better about what living in relationship and working with survivors feels and looks like in a really responsible emotional way behavior. I hope we gave enough behavioral content that you can really envision it and practice it and. And I really, truly believe that the world is healed by being able to see and witness and hear instances of good male female partnership and good partnering with people who have had traumas and and have been abused. Because the main thing that survivors want is to be heard right and then believed and be safe and have restitution for their pain and suffering that has been handed to them in the perfect world. Right? That's what we would want to see. Right.  [00:40:43][70.6]

Speaker 2: [00:40:44] So, so you've been listening to our podcast, partnered with a survivor, which you can listen to on Spotify and Apple and Google podcast platforms and anywhere else. You listen to podcasts if you like this one. You know, please share with other people, tell the people about it and then also visit our website, save into other instinct and our virtual academy, which Ruth has worked really hard on and our team has worked really hard on, you know, which the academy dot safe and together into dot com.  [00:41:15][30.9]

Speaker 1: [00:41:15] You can get lots of free webinars and trainings on the academy and other intensive stuff.  [00:41:22][6.8]

Speaker 2: [00:41:23] So our core training and our supervisor's training and and you know, you can follow us on Facebook and Twitter, and we have an Instagram page now.  [00:41:33][10.3]

Speaker 1: [00:41:34] And I just got to say, we miss you all went to Australia. We miss you, New Zealand. We miss you, the UK, and we hope that you  [00:41:41][7.5]

Speaker 2: [00:41:41] miss and even people United States because we know  [00:41:43][2.0]

Speaker 1: [00:41:44] people in the United States and we hope that you are safe and that you are well. Yes. And we're out. We're out till next time.  [00:41:44][0.0]

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