How We Money: Live with Michael and Jean Bender

If Michael and Jean Bender were to sum up their money story, it would be that opposites attract; he was raised to be a spender, while she was raised to be so frugal that a fried shrimp basket felt like a splurge. He's the founder of Bender Companies. She's a lawyer at Davenport Evans. Here's how they money. 

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Transcript

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- Today is a very special episode. This episode was filmed live in front of more than 100 attendees during our second annual live podcast event. It was an incredible evening, made so in large part because of my wonderful guests, Michael and Jean Bender. Michael is the founder and one of the principals of Bender Companies here in Sioux Falls. His legacy encompasses a dynamic family of companies, each a driving force in their respective domains. Jean is a longtime trusted advisor and employment lawyer at Davenport Evans Law Firm, where she assists clients with all areas of employment law. Several things about this conversation really stood out to me. The first is that sometimes opposites really do attract. The key is to respect and value each other's approach to money and to risk. The second is that we all have been given gifts and we have an opportunity and a responsibility to use them. The third is that the thing that holds us back shouldn't be the fear of failure. Instead, your sole focus should be on ensuring your success. The fourth is the importance of serving your community, especially when that service is rooted in your passions. And my final takeaway is to never order the shrimp basket when someone else is paying. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Michael and Jean Bender. It's one worth watching. You two are on the hot seat. You ready to go?- Yep.- Jean and Michael Bender, welcome to the show. Let's start this conversation how I like to start all these conversations. Let's learn about your background with money and how you were raised. Jean, you want to kick us off?- Yeah, it's so funny because we did get together and talk a little bit about what we might talk about tonight, because Michael and I couldn't figure out what anybody'd be interested in about our story. But the thing that immediately popped to my mind when Adam asked about how I was raised with money was that my dad, who actually has been gone now 25 years today. He was very, very, very frugal [laughs] with his money. And one of the things that I immediately remembered was that I was young, I don't know, five or six, and our neighbors invited us to dinner, which was a big deal, because we did not go out to dinner. And they were insistent that I could have anything I wanted, and literally, I think we were at the bowling alley in Yankton where I was raised. And so I was like, "Really, anything?" And so I ordered the shrimp basket, the fried shrimp basket. I'm sure it was the most expensive thing on the bowling alley menu. And I got in so much trouble, because if somebody's buying your dinner, I learned quickly you should not buy the most expensive thing on the menu. And to this day, and my husband and my family will attest, I struggle to, I always buy, mostly the most inexpensive thing on the menu. And I know that. I didn't even really, until Adam asked the question, it wasn't something that I had really put together in my head, but it's true.- Where did your dad's frugality come from, do you think?- You know, he was just like most people of his generation, he was a product of the Depression, and he was the youngest of a number of kids, and his dad kind of left when they were growing up. So they didn't have very much money. So I think that's what it was.- And did you work growing up?- Always.- Always?- Yeah. I started cleaning his office at a very young age, and then I always had a job through high school and college.- All right, did you get to save that money, or spend it, or what did you do with it?- It was my money, yeah, and I was a saver kind of from the get go. I was not a buy albums, music albums, I really wanted to go to Europe. That's what I really wanted to do. So I saved all my money, and my girlfriend and I were going to backpack through Europe. That was not on my dad's agenda either. And so, but I did end, the two of us did do like a get on a bus and go to a different town every day, so that's where my money went.- Awesome, great. Michael, how about you?- Well, you know what they say, opposites attract.[audience laughing] I was raised in Dallas, Texas. My parents got divorced when I was 10. So there was a period there where we did struggle. My mom had to go back to work. She'd never worked before. And so a couple years there, there was a period where, you know, you noticed things that you were lacking. But my mom remarried. She married an attorney that actually represented her in the divorce. So kind of interesting story. The only divorce he ever did was that divorce.- Really?- He was a oil and gas trial lawyer. So he had nothing to do with civil law like that. But nonetheless, he was a bit more of a spender. And he was a bit of a, you know, a little bit of a family savior for our family. And so he raised me, but he raised me to be a little bit more flamboyant and spending a little bit more. So we just-- He liked exotic cars.- Yeah, we-- That's kind of Texas though, you know?- Yeah, yeah, yeah.- Right, so.- Okay.- Well, given those differences, when the two of you got together, and that was at college, TCU, right? How easy or difficult was it for you two to get on the same page financially? And why do you think that was?- You know, I don't know. I don't remember it being that difficult. I mean, one, I think when we were in college, you're both generally broke, you know? Unless you've got your parents' credit card, which I do think Michael had for a while.[audience laughing] But, you know, after that, we're both Christians, we both think that, you know, that the Bible is the rule book for life. And that common vision, I think, helps us to view the money that we have in the same way. And so, that doesn't mean we don't have struggles and still don't occasionally disagree. But for the most part, we've had very few arguments over money, I would say.- We definitely view the possessions that have been given to us as a gift and a responsibility, for that matter. And so it's an opportunity to use some of the talents that we've been given and some of the resources to maybe give back. I mean, it's not like we're big givers, but certainly to give back to our community and give back to God's kingdom.- So if you're the spender and you're the saver, have you met in the middle or have she pulled you down more? How's that worked?- I think it's a little of both.- We pulled him down, I object to that.[audience laughing]- We'll have one of those arguments maybe tonight.- We threatened Adam that we were going to have a big knockdown, drag out fight here tonight. And that would really raise his ratings.- That's right, we're in it for the downloads, you know?- Yeah, so.- More clicks.- Yeah, that's right, exactly, exactly.- I think we respect each other. And so I think there's times where we have conversations about things, and sometimes that means that I will be more willing to take some risk or to, you know, his business involves some risk, and I think there's times where, like on our honeymoon, when he decided that maybe we should buy this painting that cost about three times what we were making at the time. We had a conversation, and we decided maybe not.- Maybe not?- That maybe not we do that.- I think, I regret we didn't buy it because it would be, right now, it'd be just a centerpiece in our house. I was so wrapped up in the moment of my love that I wanted that.- That's right, that's right.- And she did talk me off the ledge on that one.- Yeah, yeah, smart man. But, but there are times, you know, mostly a lot of the discussion would be around investments, mostly real estate investments. And as the bank well knows, they require me to sign a personal guarantee. And so that's when you really have-- And the wife to sign a personal guarantee.- And the wife to sign the personal guarantee. So the guarantees are what makes you pucker up a little bit. So we've definitely had discussions around investments more than other stuff, than the day-to-day stuff, so.- Sure, makes sense. So I'm always interested to see and listen to how people got where they are. One of the things that stood out to me when we got together first time is, you know, Michael, your story about living through the boom and then bust of Texas real estate, and I remember you telling me that was one of the most impactful and probably helpful things that could have happened to you. I'm curious why that is and what lessons did you take from that period of time?- Sure, yeah, it was a real moment in my career, a real epiphany. I was very young, started at 22, straight commission in commercial real estate in Dallas. And by 24, I was fortunate enough to have sold, it was a $60 million transaction at 24 years old. And that bought a car, a house, and a diamond ring.- There you go [laughs].- So, you know, I remember my dad pulling me aside, and saying,"Son, this is not real. You're not as smart as you think you are." And of course I thought I was. But that was 1983, '84, and by '87, '88, the whole Texas economy, not just real estate, but the whole economy really collapsed, and what it taught me was debt is not your friend. If you are going to take on debt for risk, it better be well-capitalized and really strategically thought out. And really, it was an MBA that I got through, you know, hard knocks, so to speak. And that's partly what drove us up here when we moved up here. Not the only reason, but that was certainly one of the reasons. You know, you'd always say, you know, I didn't, you know, I don't really care to get rich overnight, but I more importantly didn't want to go broke overnight, and that really is kind of what happened to that economy. You just really saw boom and bust, and so we wanted to get to a little bit more stable kind of environment for my career. We certainly didn't, we both were willing to, when we moved here in '92, we really didn't know what to expect. We didn't know anybody. I mean, Jean had her family in Yankton, but we didn't have any contacts here in Sioux Falls at all. And so we both were really willing to professionally take some what we thought would be sacrifices. In reality, it was just the opposite. Just the community embraced and warmly welcomed us. And, you know, our professional careers grew, and then our family started growing, and so it was really the best move we ever made for sure.- Yeah, and Jean, during this time, you know, when Michael was starting a business, I imagine part of the conversation was you were an attorney and you had more of a steady income. And so how did you feel about when Michael broke out in his own and started his own business? I'm sure you two talked about that a lot before pulling the cord and doing that. How did you feel about that decision?- Well, I would say that I always thought it was probably inevitable that, Michael actually when we lived in Texas, had started his own business for a while, and then the economy went south, and he and his wife thought, having a salary and some benefits would be nice for a little while. But he always has, you know, he was a tennis player, he played individual sports. He liked to sink or swim on his own. And so I wasn't surprised. And I wasn't really, I don't remember being particularly nervous about it. I mean, I had a lot of faith that he was.- I think I was more nervous than you were.- Yeah, I think you were.- For sure.- I see that a lot, the one feeling like they're taking the risk is actually the one that's a lot more nervous.- Well, just the fear of failure is really powerful. And you have to really get over that fear, and just say,"I'm not going to worry about failing. I'm going to worry about succeeding and going the other direction." So that was, and then you did walk in four months into it, and announce that you were pregnant with our daughter.- I wanted to double down on you. I think it was our son, but yeah.- I love that. So after starting the business, how long into that was it until you felt like,"You know what, I might be able to make it work?"- So it was a couple years that we didn't take any money out of the business, and we funded it. We were growing, we were getting good market share. I was really, you know, I was very thankful for the growth that we got, and the acceptance of the business. It was probably, you know, we started it in January, kind of the beginning of a year, January of '97, so it was probably late '98 as Christmas approached, I started getting Christmas cards in the mail, and I'm like,"Huh, if the business community here in Sioux Falls thinks enough to put me on a Christmas list, you know, maybe we will survive. Maybe we're legitimate." And so it kind of was one of those epiphanies that, just kind of got over it at that point. And I didn't worry any longer that we weren't going to make it.- For a while anyway.- Right.- For a while, yeah.- Until '08, '09.- Yeah, we'll talk about that. Yeah, we'll talk about that. So that's a great segue. You know, I think a lot of people, when they look at successful businesses, what naturally can happen is they look at the business and the success, and they think it's always been that way. It was an overnight success, but that's often because, you know, they weren't there during the hard times and didn't see the struggle and the sacrifice. So as you sit here today, and think about your business journey is '08, '09, is that the struggle that comes to mind first and foremost of-- For sure. And I've got partners that are here in the audience who would say the same thing. Yeah, that was a turning point. We lost - our firm, we're sales driven as you know - and so we lost about 70% of our revenue from '08 to '09, and it literally dropped, the transaction volume just dropped to nothing. And so as a result, you know, we rolled up our sleeves, and said,"How are we going to, you know, continue to service clients, and put clients ahead of, you know, our interest? And, you know, if we take the high road, we'll survive this," But it required a sacrifice on our behalf and our family's behalf. But also even some of my partners and the staff. They had to, everybody had to kind of pitch in. We had to, we went back to cleaning our office again ourselves. And, you know, for real estate, one of the big marketing parts are the signs you see all over town. And so we start installing our own signs to save money on sign costs, and, you know, just anywhere we could save money, we did during that period, and it, it was probably 2010, 2011, before it really started coming back for that business.- So as we sit here today, you've sold that business. I think a common misconception is that you're retired. That's not actually true.- His wife won't let him retire.- Yes, well, with his spending, I mean, you know, I don't blame you. I saw the vacation pictures.[audience laughing] So, you know, an interesting thing about our role is we often get to walk alongside business owners who are contemplating selling their business. We know how difficult that decision is to make. And so for you, I guess I'm wondering, how did you two process that decision to get to that point? And what was it like selling something that was such a part of your lives for a long period of time and also has your name on the door?- Right, so back up a little bit. I've always viewed our firm. I wanted to view it more like a law firm. I wanted to have partners, and a succession plan, so that it wasn't just one guy. And, you know, either you sink or swim, and everybody can stay or leave. And so I always viewed it that way. So early on, I offered partnership interest to, you know, the folks that I deemed, you know, partner-worthy if you will. And so, you know, I sold the majority interest of that business to three main partners, already had a partner at the time, and it's really a testimony to them, because they let me, they wanted me to retain some of the ownership. They wanted me to stay and be involved. You know, you got this old guy kind of looking over their shoulders, kind of questioning what they're doing. So the reality is it's been easier than I thought it would be. I'm not sure if you asked them, has it been easier or not, because I'm the one kind of, you know,"Hmm, that's not how I did it in my day." But the reality is I've got great partners, and they just took it, and they've run with it, and we've grown market share since that last, you know, it was '21 when I made that sale, and so really, I'm just, I'm really fortunate. I really am blessed.- Yeah, that's awesome. Jean, how did you feel about the decision to sell the business?- Well, I mean, we had some pretty candid conversations about, you know, counting the costs, and making sure you weren't being too crabby and looking over shoulders afterwards. And, you know, I mean, I knew it would be a pretty big transition, and what he's trying to do is not easy, but I was confident he could do it as long as he understood, and had thought through it carefully before he did it. And, you know, I didn't doubt that it was the right thing to do. Just wanted to make sure the timing was right and that he's really thinking hard about it. And he did - I made him. And so at the end, I think we've all been very happy with how it's worked out.- Good, sounds like you two balance itself out really well. What do you appreciate about each other's approach to money and risk, and how has that impacted the big decisions you've made?- Well, as you can tell from just talking to us, I'm much more shoot by the hip. And so I've been so fortunate to have Jean just calm me down, and say, "Let's think through the issues. Let's talk about this. Timing's not an issue here, so let's think through this." And so I really, I learned, I made one mistake early in our marriage.- I don't remember that.[audience laughing]- He's got the scar, apparently.- I made a mistake about a job, and it was about an individual and we actually had dinner with that person beforehand. And my wife was very uncomfortable, but I still did it. And I learned a really valuable lesson. And that was, don't focus on shiny objects, and listen to your wife because she knows what's better for me. And for her.- Smart man.- So that was a real valuable lesson for me. And fortunately it didn't pay, you know, it wasn't costly.- Yep.- Yeah.- And I would say just the opposite, you know. I mean, you've been to law school, you go to law school, and they teach you how to see risk in almost everything.- Analyze things to death.- Right. And I mean that's my natural bent anyway. And so, you know, I really appreciate that Michael sees possibilities, is willing to take risk. We certainly have benefited from that greatly, and so I do think that there's a balance there, but certainly on my own, you know, I'd dig a hole in my backyard, and that's where all my money would stay in, you know. So I think that that is a really good balance.- Yeah, you've both mentioned faith a couple times, and it was interesting when we did our talk before this, you each independently brought up faith. I'm always curious, you know, again, this is one of those topics that people, you know, don't naturally talk about, but you know, we're in it. So tell me about how your faith- Just don't talk about sex. Faith, money, and sex.- That's actually a different show, it's down the hall. No, when we talk about faith, how do you think that's informed your views on money and success and your views maybe now? Have they changed over time?- I don't know that it's changed over time. It's a little bit what I said earlier. I just believe that we've been given a gift, and we've been given a gift to each other. We've been given a gift of a family. We've been given a gift of talents. And as a result, it's created some resources that we never in our wildest dreams would've thought that we would've accumulated. And so we view that as really not our resources, but God's resources. And, you know, it's an opportunity, but it is a responsibility as well. So I don't know that it's changed a lot, really. I mean, I think as you get to the point where we are in our professional careers, you start thinking about, you know, okay, what, what are we going to do? And how are we going to impact other people, whether it's family or community, or some of those kind of things. But, you know, ultimately I'm a real estate guy, and I kind of like to think in terms of landlord and tenant and basically, we're not the landlord here, we're just a tenant. So I kind of put that in that perspective and it makes decisions a lot easier.- That's great.- Yeah. I mean, I do think it informs, and just like anything else in life, as you get older, I think our faith has only gotten stronger as it's had more tests over time. But I think it is, you know, it helps you keep perspective on things. And it is a challenge, because we want to, we want to invest our time, and our treasure, and our talents wisely. And that's not any easier now than it was when we were 20. You know, even though we had less then, so there's less to worry about. And so that is something that we're just constantly, we wanted to be careful tonight that nobody thought we had the answers, because we do not have the answers, but that is something that we continue to struggle together with and have as a goal and know that we fall short of that most days.- Well, that's the beauty of this show is it hopefully highlights that nobody has the answers and we're all trying to figure this out. And I think one of the struggles that a lot of us have is we look at people who have success, and we're inundated with those images now, especially with social media. And so we tell ourselves stories about,"Well, this person has this, or they get to go do this and they bought this," and we never know the full story, and that's part of the mission of the show, is to tell people there's more to the story than just what you maybe see on social media or what you see somebody driving or living in, and so I appreciate that. The interesting part about your story I want to come back to is the importance of community. And you two have been so generous with your time and your resources in this community, from fundraising efforts to board service to junior elected roles. Where does that service mentality come from, and why do you think it's so critical?- You know, I don't know that I, you know, know exactly where it comes from. I would say that I was really fortunate when I went to law school that I was able to get a very generous scholarship that actually was helpful, because it coincided with one of the downturns in the economy when I decided to go back to law school. But that scholarship had been endowed by somebody who had been a Texas state senator. And so part of the charge, if you got that scholarship, was that you were supposed to give back, and likely in public service, and, you know, I didn't grow up with that. And at the time I thought, you know, my dad helped, you know, represented the South Dakota High School Athletic Association. My mom was a teacher, so I was naturally very interested in education. And so I think that planted the seed to serve on school board if that became an opportunity, which I was fortunate enough to serve on the Brandon Valley School Board when my kids were going to school there, and I loved every minute of that. And, you know, we all give back in lots of different ways. I would be a failure at being a soccer coach. Nobody's asking me to coach any athletic endeavors, I can tell you. But this is something that I can do, and so it's just my way of giving back.- Yeah, that's great. Michael?- You know, for me, community service wasn't ingrained in me at my family. It really went until I moved here that, you know, I looked around the community, and, you know, Dallas-Fort Worth is a much bigger community, so it just felt like it was harder to get involved in a community, where here it felt a little bit easier and people welcomed me to do that. I did have some good advice from someone way back when, he was a good friend of Pete Heggs, who I was working for at Hegg Companies. And that was Buck Moore. And if anybody remembers Buck Moore, Buck was the regional president for Norwest Bank. So even before it was Wells Fargo, and Buck took a liking to me for some reason. And so he mentored me for a number of years while I was at Hegg Companies. And he probably instilled in me more than anybody that said,"You know, you need to be a giver, not a taker in the community. You're going to take enough from your business side, you need to give back too." So you need to find organizations and opportunities that you're really passionate about and serve. And whatever that service means for you, do it. And don't do it for the sake of it's going to help your business or it's going to help you professionally, do it for the sake of what's really going to fulfill you, and what you get excited about. And then what could help and benefit the community. So, so for me, I was, as a college student, I was a victim of a pretty violent crime where someone was murdered a little bit after the gun was at my head. And so one of the first things I volunteered for was Crime Stoppers. So I was involved here in town with Crime Stoppers - 367-7007. So, and, you know, it just kind of went from there to some other organizations and opportunities to help serve. But the important thing for me was to be, you know, passionate about what I'm serving on. And I've made some mistakes that I wasn't very passionate about, but for the most part, that's what I tell, you know, when I get asked to speak at Young Professional Network or Leadership Sioux Falls, one of those kind of programs, that's what I tell them is, you know, find things that you really care about and volunteer and don't worry about whether it's good for your career or not. That's not the purpose of it.- Great, so last question from me. What thing are you most excited about as this next phase in life?- That's a tough one. You know, for me it's, you know, it's hard to divorce myself from the company that I formed and my name is still on it. So I'm really excited about the partnerships and the partners that are there and watching them grow the company and taking it to really another level. So from a professional standpoint, I go in every day and kind of hang around, and they kind of, "Who's that guy in the corner?" You know, but you know, I'm really excited to watch them really grow the company, and then for us personally, you know, I'm hopeful that we can find a few more things that we can do together and volunteer and do some things together. Our careers have been really separate. And our community involvement's been different. She's been really on the public election side, and I've been on the private side, so I'm really hopeful we can find some things that we can do together that would be volunteer-based.- Sure, yeah, that's great.- Yeah, I don't think of it so much as the, you know, this stage of our life, even though, because every stage is a new stage of your life. But I am excited about just, you know, God unveils things one thing at a time, and it's always kind of, sometimes, you know, it's not always super exciting. We have friends with real health issues right now and things, but it is always a gift, whatever it is, whatever the challenge is. And so I know that that's, you know, God willing, we'll live, and we'll do whatever the next challenge is. We've enjoyed every challenge we've had so far, and so I have no doubt that that's what's going to happen with the next one. You know, I look forward to more time with family, more time with friends, more time giving back to our church and our organizations that we're really passionate about. That is one thing at this stage of life was we have a little more time than we had when we had, you know, little kids running around, and trying to do everything else.

- And to the family members out there: 33:51

hopefully the challenge could be being grandma and grandpa.- You can't say that kind of thing!- Can't help yourself, you can't help yourself. Oh, that's funny. Oh, well that's, how could we end any other way, right? No pressure, no pressure. Well, speaking of gifts, you two are a gift. And thank you so much for sharing your story. We really appreciate it. And yeah, there's just so many good nuggets, and so many good lessons there. And so thank you very much for doing this. Really appreciate it.- Thank you for having us.- Thank you. Thank you for making it easy.- It was far easier than we thought.- Oh good, good, good. Let...see, everybody? Yeah.- I didn't even see anybody out there.- Yeah, right, exactly. Everybody, Michael and Jean Bender.[audience applauding] Awesome. So the bar's back open, which is good news. Hopefully somebody's got an old fashioned with my name on it, and Michael's too. And thank you all very much for coming. Have a great night. I hope you found this helpful. If you did, please subscribe, and share with your family or friends. If you have a topic you want us to cover in future episodes, send us a note through our website. And if you're at the point where you want an expert opinion on your finances, reach out and we'd be happy to start a conversation. And remember, any comments, insights, or strategies discussed on this podcast are intended to be general in nature and therefore may not be suitable for you and your situation, whatever that may be. Before acting on anything we discuss, please consult with your attorney, CPA, and/or your financial advisor.