What Is Purpose? ft. Jordan Grumet

We can't all save puppies or play Major League Baseball for a living, but we can still find a sense of purpose. Hospice doctor, podcaster, and author Jordan Grumet answers the existential question of "What is purpose?", breaks down his formula for finding yours, and explains how money ties into it all.

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Transcript

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- I mean, I'm a hospice doctor. I take care of dying people. And many of them get to their deathbed and they say, "I always wish I had the energy, courage, or time during my life to do these deeply important things to me, but I always kept putting it off." And so if you keep putting it off, at some point, you will regret not putting more energy into these things that were important to you, not thinking more about purpose.[light music]- Welcome to Common Cents on the Prairie, a podcast dedicated to helping you demystify the sometimes complex topic of money. I'm Adam Cox, head of Wealth Management for The First National Bank in Sioux Falls. We're a community bank based out of South Dakota. In this podcast, we share expert insights from around the country and stories from our local community to arm you with the tools you need to make better financial decisions. Because the truth is, the more we talk about this stuff, the better off we're all going to be.[light music] Jordan Grumet found the spark to become a doctor after a deeply personal event reshaped his life's trajectory. The unexpected loss of his father, an oncologist, ignited a passion within him to practice medicine and instilled a unique vantage point that later melded seamlessly with his financial expertise. This conversion of roles has spurred him to explore profound notions like wealth, abundance, and financial independence with a thoughtful and critical lens. Completing his studies at the University of Michigan, Jordan earned his medical degree at Northwestern University before embarking on a journey in internal medicine. Presently, he serves as an associate medical director at Unity Hospice. With a profound understanding of both medicine and finance, Jordan unveiled his thoughts through blogging, specifically focusing on financial independence and wellness. This passion culminated in the launch of the Earn and Invest podcast in 2018. His dedication bore fruit in 2019 when he was honored with the Plutus Award for Best New Personal Finance Podcast, followed by consecutive nominations for Best Personal Finance Podcast of the Year in 2020 and 2021. In August, 2022, Jordan's literary pursuit took shape when he published his first book,

"Taking Stock: 2:09

A Hospice Doctor's Advice on Financial Independence, Building Wealth, and Living a Regret-Free Life." His second book, "The Purpose Code," will be published in January of 2025. Jordan's journey intertwines medical insight and financial wisdom, resonating deeply with those seeking a balanced, meaningful life. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jordan Grumet. Jordan, welcome back to the show. Great to see you.- Thank you so much for having me. Great to see you too. I'm excited about this conversation.- Okay, well, many of our listeners will probably remember you from our last conversation. But for those who don't, could you mind talking a little bit about yourself? Give us your background.- The quick story is at the age of seven, my father, who was a physician, died suddenly. He had a brain aneurysm. He was actually rounding at the hospital. I thought the best way to make up for that cosmic thing that happened to me was to become a physician just like him. I figured if I just walked in his footsteps, everything would be okay. And that's exactly what I did. I became a doctor. It provided for me financially. I loved it for a short period of time. And I quickly burned out. Caused me to do a deep dive into finances, where I realized that I probably had enough money, but what I didn't have is enough purpose and identity. So I contemplated leaving medicine, but really didn't know how. It started a period of many years where I drew back from medicine and I started doing other things that started to feel like purpose for me. That was writing about personal finance, eventually podcasting. In the meantime, at work, I started doing only hospice work. It was the one piece of medicine that kind of filled me up, is dealing with the terminally ill and dying. I was doing a financial podcast and realized that a lot of the questions I was having trouble answering with all these authors and entrepreneurs and financial independence people I was interviewing was a lot of times, they couldn't tell me what enough looked like in their life or some of the why. It's like, okay, you've made a lot of money, but what do you do with that now? Interestingly enough, I found the answers to those questions from my hospice patients.- Mm.- And so I wrote a book about it. About what the dying can teach us about money and life. That was "Taking Stock". And the main premise of that book was that we should put purpose first before we build our financial framework. I went on the road to market that book, and I got a lot of angry people, who after giving my talks, would come up to me and say, "You tell me to find my purpose, but I have no idea how to do that. I've been trying, and in fact, it's making me anxious. Please stop telling me to find my purpose." And that became this book, "The Purpose Code", which tries to answer that question, the purpose paradox. How purpose is both like the most important thing to us, but also causes a lot of stress and depression and anxiety.- Yeah. Oh, well, that's a great intro. You led me right to the first question. Like, let's start there. Jordan, what is purpose?- So that's a good question. And so here's the way I like to frame it. So I believe happiness is made up of meaning and purpose. Meaning is very cognitive. It's the way we think about our past. It's these stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Happy people tend to tell themselves heroic stories. And unhappy people tend to tell themselves victim stories. Purpose is the exact opposite. It's about present and future, not about the past. And it's all about actions. So these are the joyful activities we fill our days, months, and years with. And it's how we do those intentional, important things in our lives. So a lot of people say the purpose is the why, but I think it's more than that. It's more the actions we actually carry out in the present and future.- One of the things that struck me from your book, I mean, just intellectually I guess, I would hear, "Oh, everybody should have a purpose", and think, "Oh, well sure, that would be nice. Maybe someday. Whatever." But in your book, you laid out that there are some real tangible benefits to our lives if we can somehow define purpose. So what are some of those benefits?- Yeah, the benefits are clear. And when I got so much anger coming at me when I suggested people should get a sense of purpose, I did a deep dive into the literature. And it is 100% clear. Study after study after study shows that people who have a sense of purpose in life live longer, are happier, and are healthier. And it's proven over and over and over again. So, you know, if I could give you a pill or tell you to drink something, and you live 20 or 30% longer and be happier and be healthier, you'd take it. Well, purpose is the same way. Purpose can definitely improve our lives. And so it's important. It's not that we should just throw it out and say, "Eh, there is no purpose. I can't find it. Leave it alone." I think it actually adds to our life and our happiness.- Did it throw you off when people reacted so negatively?- Well, it made me curious.- Yeah.- And so that was the other part of the research I did. Part of the research said, "Hey, look, purpose is really important." The other part of the research showed that up to 91% of people at some point in their lives have what's called purpose anxiety. Meaning purpose fills them with a sense of anxiety, fear, loathing, depression, frustration. And so that was a big part of this book, is how is purpose both so important as well as anxiety-provoking? And the answer I came up with was that we probably get purpose wrong. Purpose is probably not one thing, but probably two things. And one of them leads to all this disappointment and the anxiousness. And the other probably leads to all those benefits. And I had never really heard anyone talk about purpose this way. So I knew I was onto something.- You know, it's interesting, just as you were talking about that, I can recount a story from my own life. I was sitting in a room, and it was a business thing. And they're like, "You have to have a purpose or you have to have a why." I don't think it was purpose."You have to have a why to do what you do every day." And I remember feeling that anxiety and think,"I don't have one. I'm just doing a job. I'm like five or six years into my career. Like, it's a little early for me to have my why." And I do remember feeling anxious about that. Anxious, kind of defeated. Like, "I guess I just don't have one. I'm just going to go to work every day. And I'm not lucky enough to have one."- Here's the problem, is we make the stakes really high. We convince people that purpose is like this one big important thing in your life, and you either get it and everything is great or you don't get it, and everything is lost. And that leads to a huge amount of anxiety. In the book, I talk about the fact that that's what I call "big P" purpose, this big goal-oriented purpose that everyone thinks is going to make them have this huge impact and legacy, which leaves most of us feeling lousy. Whereas what I think is a better version is what I call "little p" purpose, which is much more process-oriented instead of goal-oriented. You don't worry as much about impact and legacy. You worry more about doing those things that light you up. Interestingly, and excitingly, as I talk about the book, that probably actually creates a bigger legacy and impact in the end.- So it's the actual purpose, the process of getting to the purpose, excuse me, that really helps with the fulfillment.- Yeah, I mean, purpose, again, is action. So in a lot of ways, purpose is process. It's not a goal. It's not getting to the top. Purpose is those actions we fill up our present and future with. So it's a very active thing. It's very process-oriented.- One of the things I think we get wrong about purpose, and I'm interested to hear what you think we get wrong about purpose, that at least that I've observed, is I think people, especially when it comes to their work, they downplay the importance of their work. Like, "Oh, I'm only this", or "I only do this." And I think they miss the bigger picture. And I think some people think that unless we're all doing something like the most noble thing ever, like we're all rescuing puppies for a living, we simply can't have a purpose that's worth it. Do you observe that as well?- I do observe it. And I think it leads us more to frustration. And again, it's very goal-oriented purpose. Like, if I do this big thing-- Yeah.- That changes the world, everything is going to be okay. But if I don't get there, then I've kind of failed. And in the beginning of my book, I talk about someone who lived the exact opposite. So when I was a little kid, I didn't have much community. I had a learning disability. My father had just died. And I felt very much alone. But one of the places I found solace was a antique store. And the owner of the antique store, this guy named Roman, was buying and selling antiques, fixing up furniture. And one day he discovered baseball cards and realized he loved baseball cards. And it was something that was a big part of his purpose. It was what I call "little p" purpose. He just loved doing it. He loved collecting them. He wanted somehow his business to reflect the thing he loved. He wasn't planning on making tons of money. He wasn't planning on what eventually became. But by deciding to sell baseball cards at his antique store, something he just deeply loved, he created a community for a lot of people like me, people who felt like they were geeks or nerds or misfits. And all of us kids would go to his store. And we immediately had a community. And that gave us a sense of confidence. And we went out into the world and eventually became doctors and lawyers and CPAs or some of us decided to buy and sell things like Roman. But he deeply impacted our lives. But that wasn't his plan.- Hmm.- His plan was not, "I'm going to open this baseball card store and make millions and billions or become famous", or whatever that "big P" version of purpose is that most of us look for in work. He just was like, "Well, I'm doing this thing for a living and I have this passion. And if I can bring my "little p" purpose into my work, I can spend more time doing things I love doing." And in the process, he actually created a huge amount of impact and legacy. He actually eventually ended up dying of cancer. But 30 years later, I'm still talking about the guy because he had such a profound impact on my life. You know, think about the baseball cards. I collected lots of baseball cards, including Mickey Mantle. Mickey Mantle is a guy who people are like,"Wow, that was a purposeful guy. He changed the world. He was like the greatest baseball player ever." But Mickey Mantle never changed my life for the better. This guy Roman did. And he did so by pursuing his own joy and passion, by pursuing his own version of purpose.- You brought up Mickey Mantle. I also had a Mickey Mantle baseball card signed by him. And I thought that was-- Oh, awesome.- The greatest thing ever as a kid. [laughs]- Yeah, but if you had decided, so let's say you idolized Mickey Mantle, and he signed your baseball card, and you said,"My version of purpose is to become like Mickey Mantle, to be a Major League baseball player, you know, to be a pennant winner or whatever it is to break all these rules", you probably were not the right person at the right time with the right skillset, the right genetics and the right amount of luck. You probably would've never got there. And so if that was your version of purpose, you probably would've found yourself frustrated when you didn't have the agency to actually achieve this big audacious thing that only one in millions of people can achieve. You didn't have agency. And that's the big difference.- Yep.- That's when purpose starts feeling a little more toxic and anxiety-provoking.- Sure. So how are happiness and purpose tied together?- So in my opinion, meaning and purpose form happiness. So you need both.- Okay.- Meaning has a lot to do, like I said, with your thoughts and the stories we tell ourselves about the past. People who have a healthy sense of meaning not only tell themselves a heroic story, but they generally feel like they were enough. They lived through traumatic times. They made it past those times. They grew, they learned, they evolved, and they realized that they were enough. And you need that sense of enoughness to move into purpose, which is the present and future. And so once you feel enough, you can joyfully move into the present and future and do these things that light you up. If you don't have enough of a sense of meaning, and if you don't feel like you're enough, the problem is you start trying to use purpose to feel enough. And that's when it gets very goal-oriented and it starts feeling really bad. As I always say, you can't purpose your way to enough. You can't purpose your way to happiness. You need to resolve some of those past issues and have a better sense of meaning. Then once you do that, purpose just becomes really joyful and intentional. And if you get them both together, then you're a pretty happy person. It's the closest people come to what I call flow, right? This idea of you spend most of your day doing things where you do them just to do them. You're not worried about the outcome. You lose yourself. You forget the time passing. And you're just in it. And I think that's kind of where we start really touching on true happiness.- Yeah. Love that. Can our purpose change over time?- Oh, for sure.- Yeah.- So our purpose can change over time. We can have one purpose or many. Our purpose can be something big that changes the world, but it doesn't have to. And your purpose can be fleeting. Like, something can be really purposeful for you for a week, a month, a year, and then you can decide it doesn't feel like purpose anymore and move on to the next thing. That's the wonderful thing about purpose that I think we miss, is it's so abundant. You could have many, many joys, many, many things that you get excited about and get involved in, and they can be part and parcel of your purpose for as long as they serve you. And then when they stop serving you, you move on to something else.- I felt that when you talked about your personal story, that you felt like your purpose for a long time was to be a doctor to fill your dad's shoes. And at some point, that changed. Did I read that right?- I felt that being a doctor was very purposeful for the beginning of my life.- Yeah.- And so the process of becoming a doctor and going to residency, et cetera. But I think as I got older, I realized that I had done it not from a good reason, which was this is just exciting and beautiful and wonderful to me. I really did it because I thought it was going to make up for the death of my father. And I think as I came to that conclusion I didn't enjoy the day to day and the moment to moment, I realized that what had served me and felt purposeful and actually given me a wonderful career and helped me make lots of money, no longer was doing the things that I wanted it to do. It was no longer filling me up. And that's how I knew that what had felt purposeful before no longer did.- Thank you for sharing that. How does purpose tie into, this is a personal finance show. This is a show we talk about careers and money, retirement, all sorts of things. How does purpose tie in with personal finance?- So let me tell you how it doesn't tie in. So, many people think that money brings happiness, and vis-a-vis purpose, a sense of meaning. Because remember, happiness is meaning and purpose. And a lot of people think that money will get them to happiness. And a lot of times, I don't think that's really the truth. There are tons of studies, right? So the studies, if you look at, so there's a famous study with Kahneman and Deaton from 2000, whatever, '12, '13, that showed that after about $70,000, that money no longer led to happiness. And then Killingsworth, Matthew Killingsworth came and did some other studies in 2016, said,"No, actually for some people, making more money does incrementally improve things." Then Kahneman and Killingsworth looked at the data altogether and pretty much came up with the same conclusions that yes, the amount of happiness, the increase is not as much, but yet you still can increase some happiness by making more money. The thing is, most of their studies were either retrospective, meaning they took data from other people. A lot of the times, the data actually only included one assessment of wealth. It didn't look at wealth over time. Or even the Killingsworth data was, like, based on texting people multiple times a day for a certain number of weeks, and then taking the responses to come to these conclusions. So they just aren't that deep studies. Let me tell you what is a pretty incredible study. It's the Harvard Adult Developmental Health Study. They started in the early 1900s. They took, originally, I think 1,000 Harvard graduates, but eventually expanded it to their family members. And then eventually took controls from Boston. And so it expanded to thousands and thousands of people. And they interviewed these people every two years. And as technology improved, they started doing MRIs and EEGs and blood tests. They assessed their wealth at many, many different times. And they studied these people over 80, 90 years, and they tried to connect what makes people happy. And so they found it wasn't money. They found it wasn't your job. It wasn't your achievements. It wasn't even, per se, purpose. What really made people happy were interpersonal connections.- Hmm.- Interpersonal connections. So you're looking at me going,"You just wrote a book about purpose and you just told me all the data about purpose and happiness. Why didn't the Harvard study find that?" Well, here's what I believe. I believe "little p" purpose is a conduit to interpersonal connections. I believe when you fill your day up with things you're truly intentional and love doing, you become like a light that attracts other people, and like a moth to a flame, they want to collaborate with you. They want to join communities with you. They want to get to know you better. They want to teach you if they have something to teach you. And they want to learn from you if they have something to learn from you. And so I believe "little p" purpose brings you to community. And I think community brings you to happiness. So how does money play all into this? Money is a great tool. It's one of many tools. It's one tool. And some would say it's the best tool. I think we have other tools. I think we have our youth, our energy, our communities, our passions, our skills. I think those are all tools. But we use those tools to live a life in which we can pursue more "little p" purpose. So a good example is I spent a lot of my time being a doctor, which felt purposeful, but eventually didn't. But I made a lot of money doing that. I invested that money in the stock market and real estate and all sorts of things. So I had money. And then I could use money to support myself so I didn't have to work anymore or to hire a house cleaner or to do all those things I wanted to do, which means that I was more present for the time available to start filling that time with things that felt purposeful for me. So money is a great tool, but you don't need money to pursue purpose because we have all sorts of other tools that help us. And I don't think that money and happiness are actually connected. And we see this all around the world. You know, you go to some of the poorest countries in the world, and they have some of the happiest people. And so I don't think it's a one-to-one correlation. Certainly, we know that if you have very little money and you don't have enough to provide shelter and safety and those kind of things, it certainly can impact your happiness. But even in countries where no one has that, it doesn't majorly impact your happiness. Where it does impact your happiness is when you're in a country where everyone has things that you don't have.- Yeah.- And so there's a comparative nature to money and feeling happiness. But I think when it comes to purpose, it's just a great tool that helps you free up some of your time so that you can pursue purpose. But interestingly enough, the Department of Labor Statistics does the US Time Survey, and they found that, generally, your average American has about five hours of free time a day. And that people who are from low socioeconomic demographics actually probably have about six hours a day.- Okay.- And so, yes, money helps you free up a little bit of time, but your average person actually has plenty of free time a day.- Huh. One of the things that I've observed that I have really been interested in recently is watching people leave work. So that's one of the things that we do here, is we help people have enough money and have the confidence to leave the workforce. And not all of them are happy when they do. And I'd say a lot of people fail retirement. They end up doing something else or going back to work, going back to the same job in many instances. And I, you know, coming into it, I thought,"Well, it's a lack of purpose." But as you were describing that, it's a lot of things. It's the interconnectedness that we have. It's the communities. It's the feeling needed and your opinions matter and all the things. It's not you get time freedom. So on one hand, it feels really, really good to leave work and not have to have the financial stress of having to work. But also, on the other hand, it's a big gulp. It's "What do I do with the rest of my life?" And that's something that's really difficult to solve for, for financial professionals.- I think it's a big problem. And what I've noticed is there's two patterns of people who retire successfully. One type of person is someone who has it all planned out and they know exactly what they want to do. And they're like, "I want to retire now because I want to tend the garden and I want to play more golf with my buddies. And I want to take this many trips each year. And I've got this passion for X, Y, or Z, and I want to spend my time doing that." So one group of happy retirees has it all planned out.- Yep.- There's another group of happy retirees, who's like,"I just need six months of rest and then I'll figure it out." And they need to decompress.- Yeah.- Take a little bit of time off, and then they jump into purpose and figure it out. Those are the happy retirees. I think we have a whole subset of unhappy retirees who used work as an escape mechanism not to do the hard work involved in purpose. So I often talk about you can't find purpose, you have to build it. And so it's hard work, and it's action.- Mm.- And so a lot of these people leave work and they have never thought about what looks like purpose in their life. They always said, "Well, once I make enough money or once I retire, I can start thinking about these difficult things." And then they get there, and they haven't done any of the hard work. And so they're faced with this fear, this anxiety, this huge amount of purpose anxiety. Maybe there is no purpose. Maybe I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Maybe I'm going to fail. And it's just much easier to just start working again and put it off versus to really dig in and say, "Okay, building a life of purpose isn't going to be a walk in the park. I'm going to have to do some deep thinking about what's important to me. I'm going to have to then take what's important to me and build a life of purpose around it. And there's going to be some fears of failure. There's going to be some fears of not measuring up. There's going to be some bad times and good times. But I'm at this point in life where I'm ready to do that work." That's a subset. The problem with the people who go back to work because it's too anxiety-provoking is they will run out of time one day. I mean, I'm a hospice doctor. I take care of dying people. And many of them get to their deathbed and they say,"I always wish I had the energy, courage, or time during my life to do these deeply important things to me, but I always kept putting it off." And so if you keep putting it off, at some point, you will regret not putting more energy into these things that were important to you, not thinking more about purpose. So if you find yourself back to work because you're feeling stuck, it might be worth investing some time and energy in becoming unstuck as opposed to just chasing back to work because it feels safer.- Yeah. That expression I love, which is "You have to retire to something not from something."- I think it's really hard to retire to this concept of we're going to do nothing.- Yeah.- Because I think work is good for us. And so I think we're going to do work our whole lives. The question is, are you going to do it for someone, meaning being employed to make money, or what we probably will spend at least hopefully half or a third of our life is doing work that we just find deeply gratifying that we do for ourselves.- Yeah.- Creating, building, being part of communities. That's all work too. It's just we do it more for ourselves than we do it for a paycheck or we do it for an employer. And so I don't think we should shy away from work. It's just as you get older and you get more financially secure, the work you do should really be more for you than other people.- So let's talk to that person that we've just convinced that needs a purpose. [laughs] How do you start down the path? You say, "Okay, Jordan, this is brilliant. This is great. I've looked at my own life. I've looked inwards. And I'm feeling like I'm not sure what that thing is." Like, how do you start? How do you get down that path? I know you said action helps.- Action.- Like, where do you start?- So I always tell people you can't find purpose, you create it. But it is true that we have to understand the, you know, the beckonings, the things in our life that we might want to build purpose around. So what are kind of the joys, the interests, the things we like? And then we can build a life of purpose around them. So in the book, I actually talk about a series of exercises we can do to start finding what I call purpose anchors, right? These are the inklings, the beckonings, the things that we might want to build purpose around. So in the book, I talk about three or four. The first is what's called the life review. I talk about this in my first book "Taking Stock", and it's what we do with hospice people at the end of their life to kind of review their life. It's a series of important questions. But the most simple life review is just ask yourself about regrets. So if you found yourself on your deathbed, what would you regret never having the energy, courage, or time to do? Regret in a dying person feels bad because you don't have agency, right? It's disappointment. But regret in a young, healthy person who has lots of years in front of them is just another name for a purpose anchor. That is a place we can start building purpose around. So, regrets are a great way to start thinking about purpose anchors. Another is what I call the art of subtraction. And specifically looking at work. And this is what I talked about before. Let's say you think you hate your job and you hate 90% of it, but there's one part of it you really like. Like, I really love Tuesday mornings where I interview the other employees and we figure out what our weekly meeting should be about. Like, I love that, you know, half an hour I spend doing this every week. Well, that's a purpose anchor. What do you love about work even if you don't love work in general? And how could you build purpose around that? Another easy way is your joys of childhood. A lot of times, before we become adults and people tell us what we're supposed to be, children are very good at purpose and they go into it very joyfully. And often they don't worry about goals. They just love doing what they do. So go back to your childhood room. What were the posters? What were the trophies? What were the drawings on the wall? What did you love in childhood? Could that be a purpose anchor during adulthood? And last but not least, I love to talk about the spaghetti method. If everything else fails, you throw a bunch of things against the wall and see what sticks.- Yep.- If you truly have no idea what a purpose anchor looks like in your life, try a bunch of new stuff. Say yes to people you normally don't say yes to. Try things you don't normally try. Maybe do things that make you a touch uncomfortable. And if you find that you like any of those and it felt like a really good use of your time, that could also be a purpose anchor. So those are a few quick ways to start thinking about how we figure out the purpose anchor so that we can then build a life of purpose around them.- I love it. Well, reading your book, I did try some of those things as well. And I am the first to admit, I was like, "I don't know about some of this stuff." And Jordan, it works. Like, it really helps.- It does.- It helps in the margins and sometimes it helps, it elicits some big questions about yourself. And that's one thing for me that I have always been a little bit concerned of is retirement. Like, what am I going to do? And I've seen so many people with retirement not work and them to lose purpose. And they'll look at their spouse and say, "Who are you?" And all of those things. And you know, I'm not near retirement, I don't think. And there are things that I can do today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year to help me prepare. And books like yours, works like yours, have really, really helped me. And so thank you for that. I appreciate it.- You're welcome. And let me tell you what the other side looks like.- Please.- And so I haven't really worked for money since 2018. So I make money, but it's not the reason I do things now. I pretty much only do things that I deeply enjoy, that feel purposeful to me. So the other side of that is I'm now 51 years old and I don't have nearly enough time to do all the things I want to do. I have a full calendar of interacting with people, doing things I like doing. Everything on my calendar is something I put on my calendar on purpose. Even the stuff I don't love, at least I'm doing it in service of something I do love. And any day I get tired, I can basically cancel everything on my calendar.- Hmm.- And so think about this idea that that's where you want to end up. You want to end up in the place that you have control over your time. You don't have control over it passing because it passes no matter what.- Right.- But you've decided what activities to put in those time slots in your calendar, and that's really gratifying. And so that's a very busy, but happy version of retirement. I have 1 million things I want to do, and some of them are as simple as every day I like to exercise and read. And so those things are very purposeful for me too. And those take up some of those time slots on my calendar. Doesn't have to be something big. Doesn't have to be something crazy. Just something that fills you up.- Well, Jordan, thank you for putting us on your calendar today. We appreciate it. It was great to have you back. I highly encourage your new book, "The Purpose Code". It was really helpful for me, and I think it'll be helpful for everybody. So thank you so much for joining me today.- Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.- All right. Take care. I hope you found this helpful. If you did, please subscribe and share with your family or friends. If you have a topic you want us to cover in future episodes, send us a note through our website. And if you're at the point where you want an expert opinion on your finances, reach out and we'd be happy to start a conversation. And remember, any comments, insights, or strategies discussed on this podcast are intended to be general in nature, and therefore, may not be suitable for you and your situation, whatever that may be. Before acting on anything we discuss, please consult with your attorney, CPA, and/or your financial advisor.