Addiction to Perfection: The Paradox of Self-Compassion for Achievement-Oriented Parents, with Cathy Cioth

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

We’re back with another episode of the ‘Cathy & Brenda Show’, and this week we tackle a topic we see recurring in our community and the parents we work with…achievement-oriented parenting. As two recovering perfectionists ourselves, Cathy and I both share examples of what it looks like to be achievement-focused when your child (or children) struggle with substances and mental health. We talk about the tendency some of us have to want everything on the outside to look a certain way, even when that’s doing damage to our kids, and how it can feel scary to apply self-compassion in fear of getting ‘weak’ or ‘soft.’

We discuss the internal battles many of us face about wishing our kids would just “get it together” and how the Invitation To Change approach can help us instead look at them with compassionate curiosity to understand their behavior instead of punishing it. We also tap into two of our favorite authors and researchers, Dr. Kristin Neff and Jessica Lahey.

If you identify as a problem solver, list-checker, task doer, results-focused person…this is your episode. We even go on a tangent or two, but promise you’ll be able to relate.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Dr.Kristin Neff’s website
• Jessica Lahey’s website and Hopestream podcast episode #163

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
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Transcript

Cathy: 0:05

As you know, I was a stay at home mom, so I gave up a career and love raising my kids, and it was actually, it felt so natural for me and I was so successful when they were young. I mean, I felt successful, I guess I should say. I just felt when my kids were struggling so much, I thought, wow. I had one job to stay home and raise you guys and be there for you, and I couldn't even do that, right. I mean it, it just took such a hit.

Brenda: 0:45

Welcome to Hope Stream. The podcast and community created specifically for parents of teens and young adults. Who are misusing substances and struggling with mental health? I'm Brenda Zane, and I have been in your shoes with a child who is addicted to a high risk lifestyle and all the bad things that came with it. Listen, every week to gain clarity and understanding, learn new skills and best of all, experience, real hope for what might feel like a helpless situation. We want you to not just survive this experience. But potentially find unexpected growth and meaning through it. You are not doing this alone anymore, and we're so glad you're here. After the episode, hop over to Hope Dream community.org for more resources. Well, hello, miss Kathy. Hi Brenda. I just got to see you in person not too long ago, but now we're back on. Back on the video, the computer video

Cathy: 2:02

that back to work. It was so nice seeing each other 'cause as many people don't know that we don't live in the same city or the same state. So it's always nice when we can get

Brenda: 2:11

together and have fun. It is. It's super fun. I don't know. We have this weird relationship of, we don't see each other in person that often, but it's like we're the same person. It's very interesting. So yes. Anywho, we wanted to get on because Kathy and I have been just thinking a lot about. The moms in our community and people that we spend time with who are not even in our community but who are dealing with really difficult things. And there's a theme that comes up quite a bit, which we sort of call perfectionism, but there's another, I think, less I don't know, perfectionism kind of seems a little derogatory. I agree. And so I like this re uh, achievement oriented parenting. There you go. Much

Cathy: 3:01

better than perfectionism.

Brenda: 3:04

Yes. And also I think it talks to, even if somebody doesn't think that they're necessarily a perfectionist, you can still be very achievement oriented, results oriented, like, I need to complete this project. Or, I, there's a start and a finish, and so. This issue of our kids and their struggles. Woohoo. Like they test that to the max. Right.

Cathy: 3:36

It's, it's a lot, isn't it? And for all you parents that are in it, we so get the struggle. It is so much. Yes, so

Brenda: 3:45

much. So we wanted to just chat through that today, uh, because we, we haven't really, I don't think we've really addressed this. It's so hard after 270 episodes. I can't even, like, I have to Google my own podcast and say like, home stream podcast perfectionism.'cause I can't remember. It's been, it's been a minute and there's a lot going on in my brain. So apologies in advance if we have already done this episode, but I don't think we have.

Cathy: 4:19

I think, you know, I think we've touched on it, but we've never devoted a whole episode to it. And I think it's really so important because I do think that this is such a big issue with the parents that we see, you know, especially the parents in our community.

Brenda: 4:34

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think it goes, I would say if I had to pick, well, maybe these are our next episodes. If I had to pick some things that we see consistently, it's the, the need to control. It's allowing, being able to allow natural consequences. And this perfectionism, this thing of, like, I, well, I'll give an example for me. When my son started really struggling. I was like, you know, this advertising executive and everything looked so good on the outside, right? It's like had the job, had the house, had the career, had the everything. And so when one of your children starts really struggling in a very, at least for us, and I know this isn't the way it is for everybody, but at least for us it was in a. Very publicly visible way. Like my son was not subtle, let's just put it that way. So everyone in the school knew what was going on. Everyone in the neighborhood knew what was going on. It was very out there. And I think what, what my kind of achievement oriented mindset, uh, what happened with that is. All of a sudden I became very judgemental of my son because I was like, wait a minute, this is not how our family is. We are the, you know, we have it together, family, and you're not playing by the rules. Like you're, you've gone rogue, you're doing things that we don't do that people in our neighborhood don't do that, whatever. And so I got really judgemental because I was looking at the surface of the problem. And if you've been here very long, listening to Hope Stream, you know that we talk a lot about how behaviors make sense. Well, I didn't know that.'cause his behaviors did not make sense. So I'm just thinking, get it together. Straighten out your behavior. This is making me and your dad look really bad and I feel so terrible saying that Now, did you say that to him? I think I said it to him in not such direct words, maybe. Yeah. Or maybe I did say it very directly. I can't really remember. Yeah. But I know he felt it. I know he felt controlled and he felt like he was not he talked later about feeling like he was kind of the black sheep of the family, like, you know, well, there's Enzo, he's the troublemaker and everybody else is playing by the rules, but not that one. Which then I took as a reflection on me of, well, how come you can't get your kid to act the right way? And we've talked about this before, if your child is your report card and you are getting Fs and you're an achievement oriented, perfectionist type of person, that feels very uncomfortable and very not sustainable. So that's, that's kind of how all of this showed up for me initially.

Cathy: 7:36

Ooh, okay. I so resonate with all that in a, in a different way, but similarly as you know, I was a stay at home mom, so I gave up a career and love raising my kids. And it was actually, it felt so natural for me, you know, to do that. And. I was so successful when they were young. I mean, we, I felt successful, I guess I should say. So when we started struggling, our family oh boy. Talk about the report card. You know, I, it, I just felt when my kids were struggling so much, I thought, wow, I had one job to stay home and raise you guys and be there for you. And I. Couldn't even do that. Right. I mean, it, my, it just took such a hit. And so yeah, as far as feeling like an absolute failure, that was me. And of course, the more I felt like a failure, the more pressure I put on my kids to be, to be successful, I probably did say to them, although I think I just purposely am forgetting it now, but I probably did say, you are making me look so bad. Yeah. You know what's going on.

Brenda: 8:47

Yeah.

Cathy: 8:48

My kids were not as open and vocal about what was going on. They were really good about, you know, it, it was tough. It was a really tough time. So, yeah. Yeah. That, that's, so this is gonna be a great topic to discuss today for sure. Yeah.'Cause I think so many people just resonates with how that is, whether you're a stay at home mom or you know, successful in your job. Absolutely. It's really tough when our kids are struggling.

Brenda: 9:17

Yeah, that would be really hard because that is now quote unquote, your job. And so it's so funny though because you know, we talked to, well, I mean we talk obviously, and then we talked to the parents in our community and it's like the stay-at-home moms are like, oh, maybe if I'd gone to work, maybe if I hadn't been around so much, maybe if I hadn't been so, you know, all over my kids and then the moms who work, or like, well, maybe if I'd stayed home and then I could be, I would've been around more and I wasn't traveling and I was, my mind wasn't on work, and it's like. Okay, you can't win. So everybody stop blaming yourself. It's okay. Like it, it happens. It is not something that you caused and it can be really easy to fall into that trap. And why I think it's important to just mention that and to let it go is because that talk track in your brain is taking up time that you could be applying to helping your family, learning some tools. Finding some help, right? So if you're, if you're spinning on that topic, then you're not doing the move forward work, which is what is really important to do.

Cathy: 10:29

It's really true. And to, and to understand no matter what your quote job is, right? Stay at home mom, or you know, corporate exec or whatever, right? You're. You're still defined as a high achieving parent. You know, as you know, I want really to be clear about. High achieving parent doesn't mean that, you know, you are the successful executive versus a stay at home mom. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's how we see problems. Right. So I kind of wanted to bring that up too. Yeah.

Brenda: 11:01

A hundred percent.

Cathy: 11:03

Mm-hmm.

Brenda: 11:03

Do you wanna talk a little bit about what we're kind of calling the achievement trap?

Cathy: 11:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know. High achieving parents, you know, they often approach their child's substance use as this problem to solve or manage. Oh, yes, right. I can solve

Brenda: 11:26

this problem.

Cathy: 11:27

I get paid to solve problems. Oh my God. First of all, I would've loved to get paid to solve the problems, right? And so, you know, why doesn't anyone pay us to solve our kids' problems? But anyway, you know, part of that issue is that, you know. When you have in life, okay, let's just say in life in general, right? Like when you're at a job, people come to you and say, I've got this problem, X, Y, Z, and it's your job, right? At your job to go out and find the resources to find the resolution, right? What's the solution? Yes. To your client's problem? Yes. There's always a solution. There is a solution. And it might be difficult to find, but there usually is a solution, right? Yeah. And part of the problem with our kids is that, well, there's several things, is that our kids can't always verbalize exactly what it is they're struggling with. Yep. And not to mention that they're, we're also dealing with a kid who might be on substances at the time, we're trying to find a solution or you know, whatever that is. And not as parents realizing that this is a deeper problem. And it requires more than these surface level solutions. So, you know, I was really big with, you know, get it together guys. You know, I, I, I'll never forget we were on a family reunion trip. This just came to my mind. We were at a family reunion trip in San Diego and. This was, my kids were really struggling then, and I remember going into their bedroom and saying, listen, we're gonna be here for a week, and you two better get it together because I am not gonna be the one that. Is gonna be asked, what's wrong with, you know, the kids and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Because I made it really about me. Of course. And, and you know, oh gosh, it was a tough week. But anyway. Yeah. Do you have a problem like that? Did you ever have something like that happen with you? Oh

Brenda: 13:36

yes.

Cathy: 13:36

It, I

Brenda: 13:37

not the only one. Oh, you are not the only one. Yeah. I, I think I was really sensitive around my parents. So anytime we were gonna get together with my parents, and we all live in the same city, so it was like, we see each other a lot. And so I was mm-hmm. Just always on pins and needles. Mm-hmm. Is he gonna show up? If he shows up? What state is he gonna be in? Or, you know, he, he says he is gonna come to his brother's basketball game. Is he gonna show up? Like, is he going to be drunk in front of, you know, the entire school? Like it was again, like you said, it was about me. Like I was so concerned for me. Mm-hmm. And I wasn't thinking about. Oh, I have a kid who's really hurting. Like that never occurred to me. It was all about me and how I was gonna look and Right. And I think that's natural when you first get into this, because like you said, it is a deeper it. This is not a surface level thing, so it's not like, Hey, get it together. Mm-hmm. Right. Get your act together, like pull your sagging pants up. You know, maybe think about brushing your teeth. I don't know, like the hygiene thing's always a struggle and And it's hard to look past that. Yeah. Because people do look at you and they do say things, and that's just a fact. And you have to sort of learn to grow thick skin. To be able to say, yep, I know. I wish he would've been on time too, or, yeah. You know, he said he was gonna come and he didn't and, and try not to make that a reflection of you because it's not.

Cathy: 15:18

It's so hard to do, but you know, it can be done and, and you know, you'd be surprised. People do react, you know, with much more compassion than you think. And if they don't, then you know what you can and say yes. And what you can say no to as well. Yeah. So, Brenda, have you heard of Dr. Ryan and Dr. Desi's? They have this self-determination theory research.

Brenda: 15:41

Have you heard about that before? I have not. And you know, I love research so. Talk to me. I

Cathy: 15:47

know how you love that. So it basically, their research shows how controlling parents, okay. Even when they're well intentioned, they say it often triggers what they call a psychological reactance. That sounds like a fancy word. Pretty interesting. It is. That's a researchy. It's pretty fancy. That's

Brenda: 16:06

a researchy word.

Cathy: 16:07

That's a researchy word, but, you know. Anyway, I wanted to share about it because, you know. As young adults, right? If they perceive their parents, you know, trying to control them rather than be really supportive, then it kind of really affects, you know, their inner desire to get into recovery or to get. You know what we call get into recovery. Yeah, right. Yeah. I can see that. Change their behavior, right? Yeah. So, because it becomes more about, let's please mom and dad, all right, fine, I'll go to treatment or fine, I'll go see this, you know, therapist versus them really wanting to do it because I really need some help. I'm struggling.

Brenda: 16:51

Yeah. Well, and that's, this is exactly why we use motivational interviewing, right? Mm-hmm. So instead of telling them what to do, we try to pull that. Intrinsic motivation out of them so that they do wanna do it. Mm-hmm. Instead of just pleasing us. Yeah.

Cathy: 17:07

Right. Right, right. Okay. So I know you like research I do. There is another guy that I want talk about and his name is Dr. William White. Okay. And he did, here's another research term called Longitudinal recovery research. Okay. Okay. That's a big, that's a big long there. We're getting fancy on this episode,

Brenda: 17:27

folks.

Cathy: 17:28

He was talking about, so if parents can, you know, kind of practice this little bit of a distance. From their kids and then still stay connected, right? Still stay emotionally connected, like have compassion for what they're going through. This actually contributes to a longer term recovery than, you know, those who are always trying to control. And so I know this is something now, I didn't know about Dr. William White long ago, but I remember. That this was something that was shared with some of the really brilliant therapists in my kids' treatment programs. And they talked about that. They talked about, you know, look, stop the controlling thing, you know, stay connected, but you know, basically do your self care or whatever that is. And I tell you, I really. I really believe in this research and I think it really works so

Brenda: 18:28

well. It's probably some of the research that went into developing Yes. You know, the invitation to change and craft, because we do talk about that a lot of mm-hmm. And it's hard because it's like, well, how do I have some distance and maintain a connection? It's a very tricky dance. That we, we teach in our classes in the community of how exactly to do that.'cause there is a way to do it. You just have to know it and understand it and really practice it to be able to know when to lean in and when to lean back. So I love that. Well, thank you for pulling out research for me. That's very nice. I like

Cathy: 19:05

it. I know you like research so much. I know you like it so much. So yes. Anyway. Let's say that, you know, your kid gets into treatment or whatever, you, you feel like things are going in a positive direction, right? Yeah. And so, like me, maybe, maybe not, but I thought, great, we're gonna see the end of this problem. Here's the solution. You know, I'm looking over at this other family and I say, wow, look at that kid. He's in fully in recovery. He's doing so well. My kid's gonna follow that same path because I've discovered the absolute solution to this problem. What I didn't realize at the time that I was going through this, that recovery looks different. Right? That's one thing that we do talk about a lot, is that maybe for that kid, you know, Sam over there. He's able to, you know, get help, get into recovery, goes to a program and he stays sober. He's working the steps. He is in, you know, a really great recovery program. And then my kid might have gone to the same exact program, followed the same steps, but relapse was involved, right. Yeah. Or whatever it is. Their path looks different. So I guess as a high achieving. Parent realizing that there aren't formulas that you can just put in to this whole equation of, okay, if you just do A plus B plus C, you're gonna get D. Yeah. No matter what across the board. No, there really is no equation. But just to know, there are really different ways to get to the answer. So your your solution, you know. We might end up with the same solution at the end, but the ways to get there might be a little different

Brenda: 21:00

for sure. And I did not have any clue of that when we first got into it. I just assumed there was an end destination that looked a certain way. And if you worked these different things that you would get there, I didn't know. And this is especially true. Mm-hmm. When you have a young, maybe they're still a teenager, or they're 19 or 20 or 21. There, there isn't a specific destination that you're going for. Right? There's not a, I don't know. I think with cancer, like you could, you could definitively say the cancer's in remission, like we have arrived at this place where the cancer is in remission. And I think with substance use, you can get to a point where you're like, okay. This person has all of these indicators that they're doing well, but it's not like, oh, it's in, it's in remission and we don't have to worry about this for, you know, the next five years. Like there's always some different thing going on and they have to continue to work at it every single day. I did not know that When we were first in it, I was like, yo, I was like, great. He's gonna go to wilderness, he's gonna go to residential. Thank you very much. That's gonna cost me a billion dollars, but at least we're gonna be done with this. And I did not know that this can go on and on for years and some years might be great and then some years might not be so great or you know, that's just that up and down. So don't focus on a single destination. Like I could easily look at your son and say, that is my definition of recovery. He's. Hasn't had, you know, substances in eight years. He goes to aa, he's got a strong network of sober friends. They do stuff together. He's got a girl, you know, fiance, who's like, I could paint. Mm-hmm. The picture of like, that is my vision of what I want for my child, and if I do that, I am gonna be hugely disappointed because my child might look. Completely different in recovery and he does look different. Mine does. So. Right, right. That can be very difficult for those of us who want the destination to be very clear. We want to know what it's gonna look like, and we want to know the steps to get there. That does usually not happen. Just as a spoiler alert. Spoil. I was gonna say, spoiler alert. You know, I was thinking, I was walking this morning and I was thinking about this. I knew we were gonna record this and I thought. Am I still a perfectionist? You know, like I was thinking that, and I don't think I am. Like, I think I'm, I'm fairly recovered from where I used to be of having these insane expectations of myself, of other people. I'm much more accepting. You know, much more flexible. So I think there are ways, mm-hmm. That you can, and some of these experiences obviously teach you that, like when your feet are in the fire for so long, all of a sudden some of the more minor things fall away and you're like, eh. Okay. Yeah. In the past I would've really gotten upset about that, and now I'm like. Yeah. Okay. Whatever. So, I mean, I don't know for you, but for me, I, I, as this is, this was my morning meditation on my walk was like, Hmm, I actually think I'm doing okay in that area. I

Cathy: 24:37

love that. No, I, I think I have improved so much. I really do. And I think my kids have seen that too. I like to say, I really do think that they have seen that.'cause I just, yeah. I used to get so wrapped up in. End results and now I'm just kinda like, well, maybe that's supposed to be the end result right there. You know, it's just kind of like, oh, all right. That's not what I was expecting. And that's also okay. I've also discovered when I am not married to an end result, sometimes I like the solution that shows up. Mm. More than the one that I was expecting. Mm-hmm. So. If your family's road to recovery.'cause I do wanna include the whole family. Yes.'cause it really isn't just about our kids. Yeah. It's the whole family. Right. Try not to see things as a failure if you aren't flying like the crow to that destination. Right. Yeah. Because there's a lot that we don't see. Right. You mentioned my son and you know what, you know most of the world doesn't see is that. There is a day-to-day commitment there. There's, you know, things that I don't even know about, right? That maybe there's struggles in that, and so we just don't always see everything in there. But I, I don't really see things as failures, just more as learning opportunities. And every time there's a relapse or every time there's just. You know, a reset, a small reset, right? It allows all of the family, including your kiddo, to look at that situation and say, oh, I need more support here or there.

Brenda: 26:13

No one's perfect. No, a hundred percent. Yeah. Well, and that's another thing I was thinking about on my walk. Okay. Now we're an official tangent for this episode, but I think it's important. The other thing we're, the other thing I was thinking about on my walk was it, for those of us who tend to have this perfectionism mindset. Who are we to say what perfect is? Like if I'm trying to do something to a certain standard, that means that I have deemed that standard as the standard, and who am I to set that? Because someone else might look at that and say, well, that's ridiculous. That's not even close to my standard. Or someone else might look at it and say. Well, that's insane. I would never even try to get to that standard. So it's such a nebulous thing. It's just we all make these things up. Mm-hmm. So here I am trying to be perfect to my standard. And you might be looking at me going, sister, I don't even, like, what are you doing? Right? So it's kind of a useless battle anyway. Because this is, it is, I was thinking, so we had a live in our community in the stream. We kick off each month with this live, which is kind of like an Instagram live like Kathy and I are on the screen. Mm-hmm. But all of our members are kind of in the chat. And I will tell you for a fact, five years ago, I would've never gotten on that live. With, I currently have sty in my eyes, which I will not go into 'cause that's TMI, but it is not pretty and I can't wear makeup and it. Just all of that. And you were, you're kind of on vacation and you're not wearing makeup or doing your hair. And we showed up just like that. And I guarantee you, five years ago, uh, I would never, like, I would've canceled. I would've said, oh, I can't do, you know, da da. And so I think these experiences with our kids, often they have that ripple effect of like, it's okay. It's okay. You don't have to show up. Perfect. Whatever standard you think perfect is people still enjoy, had a great time on the live. I don't think any members have left because we didn't wear makeup or because I had, I sure hope not had this sky in my eye. So there is a nice ripple effect that I have noticed. For me personally, I won't speak for anyone else that going through something like this just can also let the guard down a little bit and to say. I'm gonna just show up as me in all the different ways that I am, and sometimes that looks great and sometimes it doesn't and it's all okay. And I, yeah, I personally am, I'm digging that. I really like it. Hey, friend, can I tell you something? If you're a mom navigating the heartbreaking, confusing journey of loving a child who struggles with substance misuse and mental health, I see you. I really do. When my family was in the deepest, darkest place, I felt completely alone. I was terrified, exhausted, and had no roadmap. That's exactly why we created Hope Stream, the community and support I wish we had had years ago. The Stream membership isn't just another program that will tell you to let go or use tough love. It's a lifeline, a place where you'll find real women who truly understand who won't judge you and who will walk beside you with compassion. We've curated resources, built an airtight private community, not on Facebook, and created a space where you can breathe, learn, and start healing, not just for your child, but for yourself. Because you matter. Your journey matters. If you're ready to feel supported, understood, and empowered, join us in the stream. We can't wait to welcome you. Visit Hope Stream community.org to learn more and join us Today I wanted to talk a little bit about what. Some of the triggers are that can, even if you're working on this high achieving aspect of yourself or your perfectionism, there are some things that could happen that will be a big trigger for that, and I think it's good to recognize those in advance. So I just wanted to talk to him, especially right now, we are recording this in early May. Of 2025 and May and June are historically torturous for parents who have kids who are not on the standard path of. Going to high school, applying to college, and then going off to college for four years and then, you know, just living this magical life. So there are seasons that can be very triggering, like the one that we're currently in holidays obviously, or anniversaries. Maybe, maybe you lost, uh, your spouse, your partner, and now your child is really struggling as a result of that and that season is coming up. And so just be really aware of those that those can just like. Inflame your desire to control everything and make it perfect and have the right memory ceremony or whatever it is, right? Like we can just make ourselves crazy trying to do these things. I remember when my son was first, in his first year or two of recovery, I. Killed myself trying to come up with the perfect gift, right? The one year anniversary, what's the perfect thing? And I'm on Etsy for 11,000 hours trying to find the right, and it's like, come on, just relax. It's okay. Right? So that can be super triggering. Family gatherings. If you have this kind of high achieving family, it does tend to run in family systems, so there can be a lot of comparison. Right. Well, the nieces and nephews mm-hmm. Are doing great. Mm-hmm. How come my kid's not doing great? Obviously if your child relapses, or even if they're starting to show signs of what we talk about as a prolapse, like you're recognizing some behaviors that tend to follow, right. A difficult time. So those are just things that you wanna watch out for because you own perfectionism Tendencies will just go like wildfire during those times. And also there's some emotional triggers like. I don't know. Menopause would you say is one for sure. For us moms, less so for the dads, although I do feel slightly, I do feel for our dads.'cause you're, you may be living with a woman who's experiencing menopause and that can't be fun. So there are some emotional signals like, you know, just going through the, the different phases of. Maybe your kid's in treatment. That's when I know when, when my son went to treatment, I was like, okay, now I can get everything back. Now I can get the house clean. Now I can get, you know, gosh. And I was just like trying to then create the perfect outward looking situation even though my kids. In, in our family, we said that he was away at a very intensive boarding school, which was semit. True. Those are things that can really, I. Flare this up if you're working on it. Which is good to be aware of. And I really love, you know, I love Dr. Kristen Neff. She's like, she's like the Brene brown of self-compassion. So like, Brene Brown is too shame. Christ enough is to. Self-compassion and she's got a couple of really good books, but one of her books, Self-Compassion, the Proven Power of Being Kind To Yourself, which I know for us, you know, type A perfectionism, we're like, oh, I do no thank you, because if I'm kind to myself. I'm gonna get weak. I'm gonna get lazy. I'm gonna get like, like, no thank you. And so we're really harsh on ourselves. We are a constant critic because somehow we think that that's going to keep us in line and that's gonna keep us doing all of the things. And it just becomes this voice that is never satisfied. Right. Even if you do something all the time. Great. It's like, Nope, I could have done it better. And so there's probably no time when that voice, like we give it a megaphone when our kids are struggling, especially with substances and all the shame that goes with that and the stigma. It's just, it's a lot. So I pulled out this quote from her book that I think is really worth highlighting. It says, when we are caught in the group of perfectionism. We're actually trying to feel safe and worthy through our achievements. Yes. But this approach inevitably fails because there's always someone doing better, and our children's struggles feel like evidence of our deepest failings. Hmm. Self-compassion interrupts the cycle. By providing the emotional safety, we are actually seeking, not through perfection, but through our shared humanity. I love that. I love that. That's so great. And nowhere is shared humanity more evident than in the stream where we've got all, all of the amazing moms going through the crazy. It's so true. So I'll just summarize Dr. Neff's research because it's a lot, and I would highly recommend her books. We'll make sure and put the books in the show notes. But her research shows that self-compassion actually does not lead to complacency. Which is what we fear. Mm-hmm. But it shows that self-compassionate people are actually more likely to take responsibility for their actions and demonstrate greater personal growth after a setback. So that resilience that we always wanna show and it, and it's important. It's so important to model this for our kids, right? Like, oh yeah, if we are not self-compassionate, how are they ever gonna be self-compassionate?

Cathy: 36:44

I love that she talked about. Shared humanity. You know what we had just talked about before? Oh, right. Oh my gosh. It shows our hu humanness right in, in what we're doing, so it's so

Brenda: 36:54

important.

Cathy: 36:55

I love that. I love her research and stuff. Yes, her books are great.

Brenda: 36:59

Yeah, she's very, she's got tons of great YouTube videos too, so We'll, we'll link all those in the show notes if you haven't heard of her. We're getting up there on time. So let's, we came up with two tools that we wanted to share with you because we like tools. We're, we've got very full tool belts and we do, we we thought so there's, if you haven't heard of the mindful parenting approach, it's Dr. She is very big on this. Our favorite Dr. Wes Robbins from Eternal Strength in Alpha Raida. I want, I used to say it wrong, I used to say Alfreda, and I think that's wrong. So anyway, Dr. Wes Robbins is big into mindful parenting. Alpha Raida. Yes. Empowered Parenting. So we're gonna share one approach from, or one tool from that approach, and then also a tool from one of our other favorites. Jessica Leahy. She's an author and speaker. She's in long-term recovery. She was on the podcast in episode 1 63 talking about her book, which is called The Addiction Inoculation. So if you have younger kids who are not yet struggling. Run. Don't walk and get that book. It is so good. It's true. It's so good. Start now. Don't wait. Yes. Listen to episode 1 63 and then get her book. But I wanted to share the mindful parenting tool that we wanna give you, which is a what matters most visualization exercise. And you guys know, I, I like to go a little woo woo every once in a while, but I think this is super helpful because it's something you can do. Wherever you are, you could be standing in line at the grocery store, you could be on the subway. So just kind of as a setup of, of a scenario a mom's kiddo returned home after his second stint in treatment, so that's your first thing. Second stint in treatment. That happens often. That is not an anomaly. She really found herself being obsessive about checking his phone, tracking his location. You know, life 365 was like her screensaver. She kind of turned their house into this FBI surveillance zone like I know many of us do. And I could identify with that mom. Yes, she knew that that was not helping. She knew it was creating a lot of tension. But you know, as this high achieving oriented person, she could not help herself. Like, and sometimes it's true, like you really can't, like I know I shouldn't look at the bank account. I know I shouldn't look at Life 360, but I can't not. So this is the what matters most visualization that can help with that. So I will just go through it. You can close your eyes and imagine your child 10 years from now. Imagine them healthy and thriving. You can see what they look like, how much they weigh, what clothes are they wearing, and think about what elements of your relationship remain important at that point. Remember, this is 10 years from now, what do you hope that they remember about how you supported them through this time? Then imagine yourself 10 years from now looking back, what are the actions that you'll be proud of taking? It might not be tracking on Life 360, so think about the actions that you're gonna be proud of. You're gonna say, I'm so proud that I blank when you are struggling, and what do you think they will be so proud of you for? So. Think about those and then think about what moments of connection will have mattered more than the moments of control. I think that's really powerful. What moments of connection will have mattered more than the moments of control? It's really powerful. So that's the visualization. And you know, in this scenario, this mom realized that as much as she wanted her son to stay sober, obviously what mattered more to her was that her son knew that he was loved unconditionally, right? And that their relationship could survive this chapter. So she didn't like go out and abandon her boundaries. She still had boundaries. She still was taking care of herself, but it helped her be able to look at the difference between. The essential safety measures that she needed to track. Right. To keep him safe. Mm-hmm. But also, mm-hmm What was she doing that would be controlling and what was, what was coming out of her anxiety. So again, it's that really difficult dance that we have to do this. Is one of those things that takes practice. You're never gonna get it right the first time. But try to think about shifting from, you know, what am I doing to control this moment to what matters most in this moment? And if you can just take that little pause before you react, it is so important. It's that little reset that that. Lets you focus more on the connection than on the control. I love that. So you wanna talk about our good friend

Cathy: 42:29

Jess Lehe? Yeah. Jessica Lehe and, and her book The Gift of Failure. I love what she talks about here because she really talks about letting, I guess you'd call it the natural consequences show up, right? As long as they're, that, that allowing failure. To be, you know, a teacher in our kids' lives, in our lives, right? So let's give a little scenario that there's a mom and our son came home from his program and this kid announced that, you know, he was not gonna go to his recovery meeting and he wanted to go hang out with some of his old friends and some of the old friends that you know. Before he left, these were the kids that he used to hang out with that were still using. And you can imagine that this mom, I know that feeling pretty much freaked out. You know what that's like, freak out is a good way to describe it. Yeah. Freak out. Freak out. Your heart, you know, is practically stops. All the alarm bells start going off. Oh my gosh, this is what happened last time the relapse happened, so. What happens? You're, you know, gonna go right to the phone and call someone and say, oh, you know, call the counselor. Call, call anyone that can help

Brenda: 43:49

you. Some of us might start calling like the admissions director for the next program, right? Yes. Like we, we have played this movie forward in a matter of like five seconds and we've already got them admitted to the next programs. That's right. That's right. And,

Cathy: 44:06

and let's keep in mind. All this kid did was say, I'm not going to the recovery meeting and I'm gonna go hang out with these old friends. Right? Yes. We have no other evidence except for that he's not dead in a ditch. He's not dead in a ditch. But understandably, those alarm bells would go up. Yes. Right. But then you remember, because you've read just Lahey's book, right? And you're thinking to yourself, oh yeah. Failure is a necessary teacher here. So what do you do? You get your phone, put it back in your pocket. You're not gonna call someone, you're gonna take that deep breath, right? You realize by doing that, you know, if you had called right, you were robbing your kid as something super important and essential, right? And that is to feel any natural consequences of his choices for that night. And how to respond to that, right? Mm-hmm. So fixing something wouldn't fix anything in the long run. True is basically what Jess Lehe says. True, right? True. We rob our kids of that ability to actually problem solve right there and, you know, and feel those natural consequences more importantly, right? We need, we need to let them feel that those natural consequences of, you know, the choices that they're making. So you know this mom, instead of emergency response mode, you know, she paused and she did what Jessica calls the empathic response to failure approach. And what that is basically is three things. She acknowledged her sons agency in the whole situation. Okay, I see you made a choice about skipping your meeting today. Secondly, she expressed real curiosity rather than judging him. Right. Oh, I'm wondering how that decision felt for you, you know, being around your old friends. And lastly, she resisted solving it and she instead asked him, well, what do you think you might do differently next time? I mean, when you look at the, those three things, right, what a difference.

Brenda: 46:19

Huge difference,

Cathy: 46:20

versus jumping on the phone and calling and resolving it, right? Huge

Brenda: 46:23

difference.

Cathy: 46:23

So what do you think happened? Her son opened up instead of getting totally defensive about the situation, and he told her he felt really anxious about hanging out with these friends and, you know, leaving early, like what would happen if he left early. So all of this led to a conversation, you know, about coming up with his own early warning system right when he is with. In a situation or you know, doing something that he had done, like something that never would've happened if that mom. You know, jumped right into, you know, managing the whole crisis. Right? Absolutely. So just think about, just taking that pause is so, so important. So, you know, what makes Lahey's approach so powerful here for our hope dream parents is that it actually acknowledges this excruciating challenge. Of not intervening when we see potential danger ahead. Oh my gosh, it's so excruciating. Okay. It is. I mean, let's, yeah. Say that again. You know? Yeah. It acknowledges that absolutely excruciating challenge of not intervening when we see. Yes. The alarm bells going off. Yes. You know, so we have to develop like that wisdom to really distinguish between what is an actual emergency and what is a important learning

Brenda: 47:49

opportunity. I actually had almost this exact situation happen Ooh. When my son came home after, Hmm. He'd, uh, he'd had his last overdose moved to California and it was probably a year maybe. Yeah, probably not even a year. He came home here to Seattle for a visit and this exact situation happened. He is like, I'm gonna go. No, it wasn't that he was skipping a meeting 'cause he, he wasn't going to meetings, but he said, I'm gonna go hang out with, you know, Jim, John, and Bob. Not their real names by the way. And I'm gonna spend the night. And these are the guys that I knew were the troublemakers. Yeah. And they were absolutely a hundred percent still using. And I thought I might throw up, right? I was like, okay, you were pretty much dead a year ago. You've been working so hard on all of this and now you're gonna go do this. And I, in my mind, was a hundred percent sure he was gonna. Relapse he was going to use, like I had already played that movie out and you know, anyway, he went, I did not sleep at about seven o'clock in the morning. I got a phone call or a text, I can't remember. Probably a text said, Hey, can you come pick me up? And Wow. You know, I was in the car before I even had the whole text read.'cause I was like, yes I can. And I went and I picked him up and he said, what a bunch of losers. He's like, all they wanted to do was smoke all night. They're still doing the same thing they were doing when we were 16 years old. He was 19 at this point. Wow. And so it was a beautiful chance for him to, it just solidified for him who he did not wanna hang out with. Wow. The kind of life he did not wanna lead. And I was so relieved. And so I, it's just funny that we brought up this example because it Yeah. You know, I easily could have like gone into crisis mode. You are not going there and how, and you know, didn't Yeah. And I just swallowed all of that and I was like, okay, you know, I, I, I've gotta let him go. So it, it's, I think we have to remember too, that natural consequences aren't always bad. Natural consequences can be very Yes. Powerful and very good. Yeah. Like in this situation where the natural consequence was he saw what he didn't want. I, I love that. And kudos, kudos to you. Well, you know, it was, I, I was muddling my way through it, but I knew at that point, you know, he was 19 or 20, he would've been, I guess 20 by that point. And it's like, I can't. I can't be the controlling mom. I've got to let this kid live his life. And I was just so, so glad. I did, like I always say, my son did so well despite me because I didn't have a lot of these tools. I was learning them, you know, slowly, but I, I wasn't steeped in them to the point where I could analyze that situation and then say, okay, here's the tool I need to enact right now, which is. You know, letting him experience natural consequences. I just sort of was like going with my heart and my gut and I just knew in my gut like I can't try to tuck this 20-year-old young man out of going to spend the night at his friend's house. So, yes, despite me.

Cathy: 51:21

Yeah.

Brenda: 51:22

But, wow. Anyway, well, we'll wrap up. I think we went a little longer'cause we did go on a tangent, but. We wanted to do this because I think it's important to really normalize this because so many of us are struggling with it, so don't beat yourself up. There's a lot to learn and there's a lot, there's a lot of good in being an achievement oriented person for sure. However, like. Identifying when that could be a bad thing with our kids is important. We always, of course, love to include some research. You know, I think we should state, again, Kathy and I are not therapists. We do not pretend to be therapists. We are trained absolutely and you know, trained in craft. We are certified in the Invitation to change approach, which is craft plus motivational interviewing and. A CT, which is acceptance and commitment therapy. So we're not winging it, but we are not therapists and so we just like to where where possible include research include. Things from people who do study this for a living and is always just let you know that you're not doing this alone. And this is a 100% judgment free zone. Kathy and I try to be really honest about our parenting flubs and failures and, you know, trial and error. And, and we do that because the, this is not a place for any judgment or any shame, and that's super important to be able to grow

Cathy: 52:47

and change. Absolutely. Absolutely. Don't be hard on yourself. You are loved and there's a greater purpose for all of this. Yes.

Brenda: 52:55

Well, I think that's

Cathy: 52:56

a good place to

Brenda: 52:57

wrap

Cathy: 52:57

it up. What do you think? I think it's a great place. That was really fun. Alright, good to talk with you. You too, Brenda.

Brenda: 53:05

Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to Hope Stream community.org and click on podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library, a search feature if you're looking for something specific. And also playlist, where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft recovery stories. Solo episodes. Siblings, we even have a start here playlist if you're new. Those are super helpful, so be sure to check them out. I also wanna let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse. The book is called Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide for Parents of Teens and Young Adults Misusing Drugs and Alcohol, and it'll introduce you. To ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance, and let them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer. It's totally free. Just go to Hope Dream community.org/worried. To download that. You are amazing. You are such a rockstar, a super elite level parent. It's truly an honor to be here with you. And please know you are not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay. You'll make it through this season, and when you do, you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible. I'm sending all my love and light and I'll meet you right back here next week.