Insight from the Other Side: From IV Heroin and Felonies at 17, to Guiding Families Through A Child’s Addiction, With Henry Maxwell

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Henry Maxwell began drinking and smoking marijuana at 12 and by 17, was an IV heroin & cocaine user. Not long afterward, his experimentation expanded to nearly every scheduled drug he could find, from Xanax to amphetamines and highly unregulated substances like ‘spice’. His teen years were largely spent among serious drug users twice his age, and involved many of the traumatic experiences common in that high-risk lifestyle.

At the age of 17, Henry was hospitalized for a cocaine overdose that mimicked the symptoms of a heart attack, leaving him afraid for his own life. When an attending nurse asked if he was interested in treatment, he knew he had to say yes, or he wouldn’t make it to see his 21st birthday.

To this day, Henry has only worked in one field: addiction and recovery. He now has a BA in psychology and certifications in mediation, intervention, and addiction.  Through Maxwell Recovery Services, he has dedicated his professional life to helping families where a young person is struggling with substance misuse or addiction.

In this episode, we discuss the complexities of topics like intervention and return to use, how parents can craft longer-term strategies that look beyond daily crises, and the importance of support systems for the entire family.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Maxwell Recovery Services website
• Man’s Search For Meaning on Amazon 

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Transcript

Henry: 0:05

Those kinds of parents who are, are pretty settled. I think they have a strong sense of community. They have some coping skills, right? They have an an exercise routine. They're, they're sleep hygiene is pretty good. And you know, they just have things that they can do to just physically regulate their nervous system and people around them that remind them to do that. The families that, that I've seen that are able to attach some meaning to their experience. If parents can start to see like, okay, we can, we can do some positive good maybe for other parents, for our community, you, you know, we've connected and learned about ourselves as a result of this experience Hands.

Brenda: 0:56

Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast and community created specifically for parents of teens and young adults who are misusing substances and struggling with mental health. I'm Brenda Zane, and I have been in your shoes with a child who is addicted to a high risk lifestyle and all the bad things that came with it. Listen, every week to gain clarity and understanding. Learn new skills and best of all experience, real hope for what might feel like a helpless situation. We want you to not just survive this experience, but potentially find unexpected growth and meaning through it. You are not doing this alone anymore, and we're so glad you're here. After the episode, hop over to hopes dream community.org for more resources. Hey friend, how are you? Are you breathing? Drinking water, getting outside and moving even just a little bit. I know these things are basic, but they are not always easy to do. If your life is in a little bit of chaos or even if things are better and you're just kind of sitting there like, woo, made it through. So while you're listening, or pause and then come back and listen. Please get yourself some water. Take a few really deep breaths like we always do, and know that right now you're exactly where you're supposed to be. You're here with me. You're grounded. You're okay. I have a conversation to share with you today that I know will help shed some light on things that you've probably wondered about, things you may have experienced, and you're just shaking your head in disbelief about. And the best part is it's all from the perspective of a person who has been in the trenches himself. Henry Maxwell, who founded Maxwell Recovery Services, was only 12 when he started using alcohol and marijuana. Sound familiar? And by the time he was 17, he was an Ivy Heroin user and was facing felony charges. His story of getting into recovery is unique. It proves once again that there is no one size fits all way to coming into help, accepting help, or for staying in lasting recovery. You are gonna wanna hear this. Henry has a BA in Psychology, an undergraduate certificate in mediation. He's a Certified Intervention Professional, a Certified Addiction Specialist, a certified Arise Interventionist, and a certified professional coach. After getting into recovery at the ripe old age of 17, Henry began his career in behavioral health at a community mental health detox center. While he was working at the detox center, he got his credential in addiction counseling, and he also got experience across various phases of the treatment continuum. So he's been in it for a while and seen it all. This exposure to diverse treatment settings has given him a really comprehensive understanding of the recovery process end to end, coupled with his own lived experience, and it's facilitated the development of a wide range of clinical skills. Henry assists individuals and families in coming together to address the challenges you know well, substance use addiction, relapse. The various forms of treatment and all the complexities that come with this experience. You can find a link in the show notes to Henry's website, maxwell recovery services.com. Take a listen now to an illuminating conversation about young people, interventions, treatment, and finding recovery early in life with Henry Maxwell. Enjoy. Hey Henry, it's so good to have you here today chatting about recovery and young people, all the stuff that you do all day long. Welcome to the podcast.

Henry: 5:28

And thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

Brenda: 5:30

Yeah, it's, it's always nice to talk with people who, it's kind of my favorite when I talk to somebody who's in the field now, but has that lived experience because there is no substitute for that. Just, you know, how people are feeling, the things that they've been through. And I just think that makes all the difference because, you know, my son has told me so many times, mom, like, you know, he worked at a, a residential. Treatment center for adolescent boys. Nice. And he was like, the guys who work here, the staff that work here who haven't been through it, they don't get it. Like, they just don't get it. Right. Yeah. Do you, do you see that as well?

Henry: 6:11

You bet. I, I mean, certainly I've met professionals that, you know, either through their own lived experience with a loved one and sort of walking through that that side of things, you know, have had ample experience, you know, sort of understand. How people are thinking. But I, I think the, what connects people in recovery, you, you know, people struggling with addiction so much is more than anything, it's, it's the, the internal feelings of isolation and shame. And, and that is hard to describe and articulate to someone who hasn't experienced it. Certainly. Yeah.

Brenda: 6:48

It's a little more squishy.

Henry: 6:50

It's a little more squishy. Yeah. And, and second, you know, I, I think it's really hard to describe. To families, to you know, just people, the, the public, how meaningful the relationship with the substance is. You know, I, I tell families sometimes you know, if you're wondering why this person you, you know, your loved one is engaging in this behavior that. By all accounts, if we look at it from an outside observer, is totally irrational. You gotta understand that that is their sole tool for life. And when we're talking about someone getting sober, we're asking them to give up their left arm. It is a real serious decision that that person is making. And, and I you know, I, I can speak to all of that 'cause it, it is my experience, right? We're, we're not talking about. Fun necessarily, or excitement though. It's all of that. It's, it's a deep internal need that I'm filling with substances, you know, and I'm willing to undergo a lot of consequences in, in order to keep experiencing that at least for a while.

Brenda: 7:57

Right. And that's what makes parents go cuckoo because you're watching your kid go through those horrible experiences and you think. Why would you wanna keep doing that? Mm-hmm. So that's a good reminder. Yeah. And I'd love to have you, to whatever degree you want to tell some of your story, just to give us some context for where you came from. And then I'd love to hear sort of what motivated you to become, you know, somebody who's working with families, really trying to help the younger people and I'm not sure exactly what age range you typically work with. I think it. It varies, but why don't you start off just giving us some of your story so that we can understand what that looked like.

Henry: 8:38

So from a very early age, you know, I, I felt like I didn't fit in. I felt like I was different. I felt like I was less than and I don't think I actually had a hard time making friends. And this is the other thing that's so funny about sort of the cognitive distortions that I, I think we as humans experience, it's, it's like I had friends, but I felt like I couldn't make friends. Yeah. As, as irrational as that sounds. And. You know, was really sort of grasping and looking for identity and, you know, I, I think, which is very common for a lot of people, you know, found that in sort of the, the subculture of drugs and alcohol and that sort of counterculture big into Hunters Thompson and fear and loathing and you know. A bunch of musical groups that sort of promoted that lifestyle. And, and so that was, I started using when I was 12. So I did opiates for the first time when I was 12.

Brenda: 9:36

Wow. You started with opiates.

Henry: 9:39

I started with, I. Alcohol and marijuana, but that was all around the same timeframe. Okay. And, and I just had a surgery and, and it was mostly curiosity where it was just, Hey, what happens if you take more of these in a shorter in a shorter time span?

Brenda: 9:56

Was it was Wisdom two surgery?

Henry: 9:58

Yeah, it was. Gosh, how did you call that?

Brenda: 10:00

Because it is, I've, I've done some research and it is actually dentists like dental surgeons, I don't know what they're called. There's probably official name for them, but they prescribe more opiates than medical doctors because of wisdom tooth surgery.

Henry: 10:18

Okay.

Brenda: 10:19

Yeah.

Henry: 10:20

Well, I, I know I got a hefty quantity for a surgery that's you know, I, maybe eight years sober, I got my remaining wisdom tooth removed and I took Tylenol. Tylenol. Right. So. Right. I don't know what that's about. I, I mean, sort of speaks to, I, I think med, the medical community's catching up, but Yes. Certainly at that time. Yeah. It was, it was pretty, pretty liberal in their,

Brenda: 10:43

but it's so interesting that you I just want to touch on this for a second 'cause I think it's so interesting that you had the thought, huh? I wonder what happens if I take more of this? Whereas I remember getting, I was in a bad ski accident when I was a sophomore in high school and I got some sort of drugs. I don't know what they were and I hated the feeling. I was like, I do not wanna take those. I would rather just be in pain'cause it made me feel so weird. So I just think it's interesting that there's some people whose brains go one way and some people whose brains go the other way.

Henry: 11:19

When I look at the ample research that we've, you know, we a hundred years of research on sort of the genetic component of addiction that's, that's how I connected to my experience because. That was not a choice that I made to feel that way as a result of that substance. It was just an experience that I had that was initial curiosity and I took it and I felt, you know, like I could breathe for the first time is how I would describe it. And that's. That's purely a, a sort of neurological chemical experience, right? That's my genetic makeup. That's how I was born to some degree. You know, there are risk factors and a lot of other things that go into that, but I totally, I, I mean, I hear that story a lot. It's, I felt weird and sick and I didn't like it.

Brenda: 12:12

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. Or people are like, yeah, kind of help with the pain and then you just never think about it again. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, but that's interesting. My son says in third grade, his teacher told the class that there was a plant, and if you smoked it, you would get in a lot of trouble 'cause it would make you feel very weird. And he was obsessed with knowing, what is it?'cause I want to try it.

Henry: 12:37

Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like,

Brenda: 12:40

so you just, I don't know, it's, it's fascinating. Okay, so you start at 12. Mm-hmm. Which I, I finally, I've, I hear that a lot. 12, 13. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what happens from there? I mean, I can guess, but

Henry: 12:56

typical progression, you know, got really into, I mean, I've had phases with almost every substance. On the planet we're gotten into it. And not all, not all, it was never a PCP guy. That's, that's a little niche, but yeah, cannabis, you know, I, I live in Colorado, born and raised in Colorado. So cannabis you know, for a while it was, it was medical and now it's, it's totally legal, recreational. But. So got really into that, got really into the subculture of that other people doing that. You know, drinking obviously. When I got into high school, real pills became, you know, a bigger part of the equation. Xanax, amphetamines you know, opiates when I could get my hands on 'em. I had a pretty horrific spice phase. You know the research chemicals?

Brenda: 13:47

Yes, yes. Spice, is that still around? I think it's maybe in different formats now.

Henry: 13:53

It's a little out of vogue. At least the, you know, 'cause the way they do it, it's just to avoid the scheduling process. So they'll take THC change a molecule. Pump it out and then they'll schedule it, you know, the federal government will schedule it and then they change another molecule and so on and so forth. So I imagine it's pretty different than when I was in high school. Yeah,

Brenda: 14:18

I do, I hear from parents that it's more in the states where marijuana's not legal, which is, there's not a lot of them anymore, but where it is not legal, then they get more of this kind of gas station stuff, right? Like this, the synthetic. THC Kratom or Raum, however you say it because they can't sell marijuana. So

Henry: 14:39

it's, it's interesting that and, and that's what we all thought of it as when we were doing it with synthetic THC.

Brenda: 14:47

Yeah.

Henry: 14:49

Not even close, you know, it, it, it makes it sound less harmful. Right. If, if you say it that I'm not giving you a hard time about it. Right. Exactly. But it's, it's the label and I believe it, it like erodes your brain matter, like it's really, really damaging to your brain. A hundred

Brenda: 15:05

percent, of course. Yes. It's terrible 'cause you don't know what's in there. Like, you literally don't know what's there. Yeah.

Henry: 15:11

I had horrible withdrawals. Little sort of, not quite blackouts, but where I didn't quite know where I was. Hallucinogenic, quality, all of that. It was pretty, pretty extreme. Yeah, pretty extreme. Yeah.

Brenda: 15:25

And what was going on with your parents during this time? Were they aware of, of how bad it was? Or were you good at sort of masking what was going on?

Henry: 15:35

I wasn't that good. People are always worse than they think they are. Right. I thought I was getting away with things. You thought you were good? Yeah. They were. I mean, I think they just didn't know really how to help me. Right. And, and I think they weren't necessarily on the same page about. How to help, you know, which is a very common dynamic that, that you find with parents. It's, you know, one, one parent wants to take more of a sort of hard line approach. The other wants to be a little bit softer. And I'm not saying either is inappropriate at certain times, but you know, I, I think they were just kind of doing their best to support this. This kid who you know, was doing substances was often at tr in trouble at school, wouldn't pay attention in school, you know, very just, and obviously really struggling, you know, with a lot of mental health stuff too.

Brenda: 16:27

Yeah. Were you, were you also dealing with like A DHD and learning differences or,

Henry: 16:32

it's interesting. I never got diagnosed with A DHD, but looking back in hindsight. You know, I, I've, I've thought about it upon reflection, like, man, it was really hard to pay attention and, and, you know complete tasks and, you know, my bandwidth. I, I mean, I remember always feeling very excited about the, the beginning of the school year fall. I. You know, sort of new beginning, fresh, I'm gonna do a really good job. And about a month in that shifted, you know, the

Brenda: 17:04

wheels fell off.

Henry: 17:05

Yeah. I, I wasn't as enthused about it. Yeah. Which is funny. I, I thought I was bad at math for 10 years, you know, I would tell people that and, and then I realized, no, I just never did it. You know, I just did everything I could to avoid doing, doing math, you know?

Brenda: 17:23

Right, right. It's funny. That's so interesting. And so what did you end up going to treatment or what, what looked, what was the sort of turnaround for you?

Henry: 17:33

Yeah, well, so by the age of 17, I'll, I'll skip ahead. I. I, I was an IV heroin addict, IV heroin and cocaine addict. I had a felony charge. You know, I was spending time with people in their thirties. Very scary and traumatic. A lot of traumatic incidents occurred you know, sort of living that lifestyle. Had a cocaine overdose, which is very, you don't hear about that a lot, but yeah. So much so that you, you know, had heart attack symptoms you know, in the neck, arm, chest really was pretty scared that I was gonna die. I went to the hospital and, and this is, I, I mean, I'm, I'm such an anomaly from, you know, just how this happened. But the nurses asked, do you want to go to treatment? And I, I said, yes, please. Yeah, I'm, I'm tapped. I can't do it. So no one was really pushing me into it. It was an experience. I was just led to that place of, okay, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna make it to 21 if I keep on the way that I'm going. And so I did go to treatment. It was very short. Short lived. I was in treatment for 21 days at, at an adolescent psych hospital in Boise, Idaho. I have no clue how that was found, how I got there. You know, none of those things. I don't know, who knows? But it, it was a good experience. People were very loving and, and. You know, I got a lot of individual attention there, just'cause I, I think they realized that I needed a lot of support. And, and then I came home. I, I lived with my dad and got really involved in sort of the recovery community 12 step community. And that's, that's ultimately what I attribute my recovery to. That being said, I. I've been in psychotherapy for 15 years at this point, so that was a component of it too, and psychiatric support and things like that. But of

Brenda: 19:30

course, wow, at 17, that is really amazing and God bless that nurse, right? I think sometimes we. We just assume that somebody is not gonna be receptive to treatment or help. It doesn't, it doesn't necessarily even have to be like formal treatment, but we just assume based on the exterior of what we were seeing with our kiddo, we're like, Hmm, you know, they would never accept help, but maybe we've never offered. And so I just Wow. That that's a, that's a special nurse to offer you that. And, and then for you to be at the point where you were like, I mean, that was your gift of desperation, right? Like there I am and you bet. Yes, please. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing.

Henry: 20:15

I. I'm not gonna lie, I did try and buy cocaine and detox and have it smuggled in. That was the day after. So the, I mean, things do shift in perspectives, certainly.

Brenda: 20:26

Well, it wouldn't be a true like recovery story if you didn't do that.

Henry: 20:30

Yeah, and, and I did have one return to use after I got outta treatment. And that was. Sort of another moment of clarity as, as well you, you know, sort of kicked things into gear in terms of my just participation in 12 step and, you know, sponsor and steps and all those things. That was a big piece to and a big piece for a lot of people.

Brenda: 20:55

What were, what would you say from. The standpoint of somebody so young getting into recovery, I imagine the peer aspect of that had to have been super challenging.'cause you come back, there's probably not a lot of 17 year olds go into AA meetings. Like how did you navigate that? I.

Henry: 21:15

Yeah, and, and, and certainly around here you know, rural community, not, not, you know, our valley I think has 15,000 people throughout the whole span of it. So not a lot of people, you know, I think in the city it's easier because there are more established young people's meetings and young people's communities. There is a young person's. Meeting here in town that used to be at, I, I think it was 10 o'clock at night. So I would, it was Friday night, go go to the restaurant after

and end up home at 1: 21:47

00 AM. And, and had a lot of fun doing that, you know, so, so there were people but I, I mean, a lot of the people I did spend time with were you, you know, 22, 23, 25 and. People were really kind to me. I, I think, and really included me because they, I think, realized I was very serious about recovery and, and that I really needed it. And, you know, I was, I was really injured when I got sober. And, and I think people picked up on that and I wanted to support me.

Brenda: 22:21

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's true. Well, I, I hear that all the time about the, the AA community really. Loving on the younger people coming in and just because they recognize, right? If you're sitting there with, you said you found a young person's meeting, but if, if not, if you're just at a regular meeting, can you imagine being in your sixties and seeing this fresh faced, 17-year-old kid coming in? You'd be like, oh my gosh, look at what life is ahead of you that they didn't have necessarily, right? I mean, depending on their story, but. Just what a gift to have that so early. Is that kind of what drives you to work with families today and try to help people?

Henry: 23:04

I would say so. I, I mean, I certainly, so I, I started working in the field when I was 19. I've, I've done one thing my entire adult life and I really. And it was in community mental health detox, which, you know, I, I think as a professional, you all pick up stories that, of things that were heartbreaking or, or interesting or challenging or, or what have you. And, and certainly a lot of my stories are from that first job that I had you know, not, not a ton of training, not a ton of oversight. Just, Hey, you, you know, this is, this is the funding we have, this is where you are. You figure it out. And I. There was something I really enjoyed about certainly helping people about you know, connecting with them. I, I love humans, you know, I love people's stories. I, I love learning about people. They're so interesting and I. So I enjoyed that and, and I enjoyed the fast pace. That was the other thing. So, you know, with, with detox we were getting a lot of people into treatment and with not a lot of resources. And so it was so, you know, you go over here, you go to the hospital, you make this phone call. It was very fast paced and it's likely that part of that was my attunement to a dysregulated nervous system that's. That's also possible. But I did, but I do enjoy it. You know, I'm, I'm built for it. Certainly.

Brenda: 24:36

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Henry: 26:14

Yeah, I, I mean, I started as a, a tech. I was in school and, and ended up getting my certification in addiction counseling. I was, I was the youngest counselor on staff. Ever, you know, and I, I think in the history of the institution and, and just worked my way up and ended up as a primary counselor in the outpatient program and, and did some other groups in the other phases and you know, some really talented people that worked there that really, you know, that hands-on experience. I, I think is I've, I've learned more from watching other people who are, you know, just really good at what they do than, than I have from school and training. Certainly. And, you know, I learned how to do group therapy there. I learned how to do a lot of things and it was, yeah, it was a wonderful experience.

Brenda: 27:05

And, and I know that they are sort of known for the the chronic jaywalker, the chronic return to user. And you know, we see that a lot in our community where. There, you know, a young person can, can go to treatment and do so well, and then they come out, I think, with the best intentions of really wanting to live a, a different life. But the pressure, either, whether, you know, maybe they're in high school still, or you know, in a college person any age, and, and then they're, they're just on this treadmill, right, of. Of getting a few months or, or weeks or maybe a year and then going back to use what do you, just talk a little bit about that?'cause I'm, I'm sure you've seen that a lot in, I think any insight you can provide for us would be amazing.

Henry: 27:58

Are you talking more from the individual lens or the family lens or both?

Brenda: 28:03

Well, both. I think, you know, from the parent lens, what we see is, oh my gosh, I have my kid back. Like I see the light in their eyes. They physically are healthy. They're saying the things they used to say that we're connecting, we're bonding. It's amazing. It's like you know, the clouds have parted and the angels are singing and it's like I had my kid back. And then over the course of time, whether that's a short time or a little bit longer time, we see them disappearing and we see, we call it the prolapse. Like we see the behaviors, we see the friends, we see the little indicators. And in your brain as a parent, you're like, why would you want to go back to this? You know where it leads and, and I mean, obviously some of it goes to what you were saying about. That was my, that was my best friend that substance and, and got me through. So some insight around that.'cause what we see looks completely illogical, especially when they've had some time of sobriety and clarity and functioning and, you know, the drama isn't there and they're not getting shot at, and they're not waking up in places they don't know. You know, like the chaos has calmed. And then they step right back into it and we are like befuddled.

Henry: 29:27

I think the first thing we need to always remember is that, that this is. I, I mean there's some sort of debate about the term disease, but it is certainly a brain illness with characteristic symptoms that we see that are pretty consistent over time. Right. And, and so from that perspective, I. Time helps, but at the same time, the brain and the neuro pathways that have been created as a result of that, that use, I mean, it's such a powerful experience. And usually it's done a lot right? By the time someone gets into recovery that, that memory, that imprint of that memory is so powerful that without that sort of consistent engagement and connection with the community, it's, it's sort of a natural you, you know, the, the insulin metaphor it. Speaks to it, it's, it's like you can have very well managed diabetes and if you stop doing those things, you, you will experience a return of symptoms, right? That's, that's likely what is going to happen. So I, I think from that perspective it, it makes sense, right? If, if we look at it from a brain illness perspective, there's a term that's thrown out or a phrase, you know, relapse is a part of recovery. And I. I don't think relapse is necessary to, to get and, and stay in recovery. So I, I don't think we need to pitch it like this is a necessary thing that everyone is going to go through. But I do, when I'm working with families and I'm talking about long term, right? How do we develop a long term strategy for this person's health and wellbeing? I, I think we do need to think a little bit about. You know, how do we create the sort of infrastructure where if that that bump sort of comes up, that person can very easily sort of transition back into recovery because it does happen so often. Right? And, and. Concretely. I mean, I, I think that looks like you know, families really cultivating, you know, a strong sense of connection as a unit where we can talk about certain things, where we can address concerns in a way that's not you know, that's not contentious. You know, I, I think. Substance use monitoring is, is a really, really important piece. I, I mean, we've known for a, a long time now you know, looking at the physician's assistance programs just how effective substance use monitoring is long-term. I. Right. So thinking about, you know, putting drug testing, you know, breathalyzer monitoring in place for longer than seems necessary. I, I'm actually a big fan of that because I've seen the efficacy.

Brenda: 32:08

What do you see parents doing wrong? Like if you, you know how there's like the before and after picture, or the do and the don't, we're so in, in the case of a return to use. Where do you see parents kind of going wrong with the best intentions, I'm sure, and, and you know, just acting maybe without a lot of guidance. What could we be doing that could be making that return to use worse longer? You know, just not being helpful.

Henry: 32:42

When I think about that question, I, I don't so much think about in the moment this is happening and, and what can parents do? Wrong. I, I mean, I think there's certainly ways of communicating that are more effective than others. Right. And, but more so I think about, you know, going into, let's say we're going into an intervention process, I. Obviously not during the intervention, but soon after. I think we do need to start be thinking about longer term and, and that's hard. We're so used to sort of day to day y you know, the, the person struggling and the family is very used to day to day. How do I handle the crisis? How do I you know, stay safe and make sure my loved one is safe. But I think we do need to start thinking about. Okay. Longer term, if that were to happen, what are my action steps gonna be? And not just what are my action steps gonna be for my loved one, right? How are we gonna intervene? How are we gonna know this is happening? How are we gonna talk to them about it? Who are we gonna get involved? But also, you know, how am I, you know, meaning the parent going to handle that in terms of accessing my own support, right? Who am I gonna call?

Brenda: 33:55

Right.

Henry: 33:55

What, how am I gonna process this, right? How am I gonna go into this with a regulated nervous system to some degree?

Brenda: 34:02

Yeah.

Henry: 34:02

Where I can sort of roll with the challenges that are gonna come up. Right. Because it's, it's almost always messy, right? I, I don't think we can totally avoid that.

Brenda: 34:11

Yeah.

Henry: 34:12

But. You know, certainly and I, I realize I'm speaking sort of abstractly. It's, it's like some common mistakes in terms of planning. I, I can't tell you how many parents I've, I've seen that bought a car for their child when they were in sort of transitional living and put the car in their name, the, the child's name, not the parent's name. Oh,

Brenda: 34:35

right.

Henry: 34:36

I understand it. Right. But then, you know, suddenly you know, their, their loved one is driving intoxicated and we have less precedent to take away the car. Right, right, right. And, and that's not 'cause we're trying to be punitive, it's just we're trying to keep this person safe. Right? Yeah. From themselves and from hurting others. So I, I mean, that's an example of if we can think. A little bit longer term and we can think about, okay, if I'm gonna take this action, you know, for my loved one, I'm gonna support this or not support this, you know, whatever the decision is. If the worst case scenario happened six months from now, how would that play out? How would this decision play out? Mm-hmm. If we were in that position.

Brenda: 35:20

Yeah.

Henry: 35:21

So thinking more strategically and longer term.

Brenda: 35:24

I think that's super helpful to hear because I know. It's very, I know there's almost a, a belief in our minds as parents is like, if I even whisper the word relapse, it's gonna happen. You know, like we're so afraid to even say the word, especially to our child because Right. We've just spent a bajillion dollars having them in treatment, they've done so much work. Everybody's like, yay. And when they come out and we're trying to get them, you know, some like padding around them, maybe a little bit of bubble wrap to kind of keep them. The last thing we wanna do is start talking about relapse.'cause we're like, well, that's not gonna happen. Or if I say it, it's gonna happen. So I think it's good to hear from you like, oh no, you need to be talking about it from the beginning. And maybe you don't call it what is the current, I I try to say return to use because I just feel like relapse is, it sounds like pejorative. Like you did this horrible thing where,

Henry: 36:28

yeah.

Brenda: 36:29

You know, sometimes you return to use for a day and it's really, I can't remember if it was, I can't remember who told me this. They were talking about thinking about a lapse in sobriety versus a return to addiction. And to me that really made a lot of sense that sometimes kids do have a, a lapse in sobriety. Maybe it's a day, maybe it's a week. And then they're like, well gotta get back on track. Versus some people, and this was my son, he actually fully went back into a life of addiction. So I do think there's a difference there that's important to recognize.

Henry: 37:06

You bet. It's, it's certainly black and white and there's a lot of nuance and you, you know, I certainly relate to, you know, the idea of recovery capital and the more recovery capital a person has. You know, that doesn't necessarily diminish the severity of the use when it occurs, but people tend to reengage with recovery more quickly. And, and I guess I'll share kind of a, a little bit of a hot take. When I'm thinking about treatment for adolescents and young adults, I, I would love for everyone to have the experience that I had of, of getting sober. You, you know, figuring a lot of different life things out and having this beautiful life, right? I also know that, that if we look at the research, that is not incredibly likely. S not impossible. There, there are plenty of people that experience that, but when I think about getting a, a, a person into treatment, like more, so what I'm thinking about is how do we get them to a place where they can make choices for themselves about what they want their life to be like. Mm-hmm.

Brenda: 38:17

Right? Mm-hmm.

Henry: 38:18

Usually when I am, you know, called to support families in those beginning stages, it's, it is like, there is no way that that person is gonna ask themselves, is this the life I want you? You know, what do I need to do to take action? They are so stuck, and I think if we can support them in increasing their stability, increasing their life skills. Connecting them with the community and really, you know, starting to experience some positive benefits. They, they may still experience a return to use a, a lapse in recovery but they're in a different space. They have access to their prefrontal cortex much more than they did.

Brenda: 38:58

Yeah.

Henry: 38:58

And they can, they can sit, they can understand, oh wow, I took this, these series of actions, this happened, and now I'm in a position I don't like, what, what am I gonna do about that?

Brenda: 39:09

Mm-hmm.

Henry: 39:10

Right, and then reengage with re recovery. And I, I see that pretty often where people go to treatment, they have a successful treatment outcome. They have a return to use and it's different and they reengage, you know?

Brenda: 39:22

Yeah.

Henry: 39:23

So I don't think it relapse, and, and I want to be careful here because the margin of safety these days on substance use is very, very thin. Yeah. So I want to be careful. Yeah. But I will say, I, I don't think return to use is, I think we do need to talk about it and, and sort of de-stigmatize that as, if I even mention the word, it's going to happen, right? Yes.

Brenda: 39:48

Yes. It's, it's almost like we don't wanna jinx it is what I, I think about a lot, but something that you said, I heard you talk about parents' nervous system and to be able to approach a return to use with a regulated nervous system, which. A, that's hard to do when you have a kid who's struggling, but it's especially hard to do when your kid is struggling, does better, and then goes back and is back on the treadmill. When, when you come across a set of parents and they appear to you to be fairly well, well-regulated, what comes to mind that they might be doing that other parents aren't doing?

Henry: 40:31

I think about that word resilience and the, and the research around resilience. And, and I, it sounds like such a lofty ideal in so many ways. I know, but there, there are, there are competencies to that. There are skills, right? And resilience is a skill, a set of skills that can be cultivated with practice. And so those kinds of parents who are, are pretty settled. I think they have a strong sense of community. And that may be with other parents struggling with you know, a loved one's addiction. That may be a church community that may be you know, a strong sort of insular family unit. But they have community they have, I. Some coping skills, right? They have an an exercise routine. Their, their sleep hygiene is pretty good. And you know, they just have things that they can do to just physically regulate their nervous system and people around them that remind them to do that, because doing that in the moment is very hard, right? And so having people. I, I think there's a component of meaning to the families that, that I've seen that are able to attach some meaning to their experience to where it's no longer just this, this sort of meaningless suffering that has occurred in our family with, with our child who is struggling with addiction, just this meaningless horrible series of events that we've been provided. If parents can start to see like, okay, we can. Like. We can do some positive good maybe for other parents, for our community. You, you know, we've connected and learned about ourselves as a result of this experience. I, I think that meaning is really I'm a big fan of Viktor Frankl and, and I read that book and treatment and, and he talks a lot about that, right? How we make me meaning of those experiences.

Brenda: 42:21

Man's search for meaning. I will put a link in the show notes. It's absolutely one of the best books ever. It's difficult, right? It's difficult to read parts of that. At least I found it was for me, but worth it for sure. Another thing that you mentioned that I wanted to go back to, because it's a hot word, is intervention. And so many parents, you know, I think. Depending on how old you are, but I think the show is still on. You think about the TV show on, I think it was on MTV intervention and there was so much drama, you know, and obviously they have to make a TV show about it, and a TV show can't be. Calm and loving and lots of good communication. Like it has to be drama. So some of us have this imprint in our mind of like, Ooh, interventions are bad. Like, my kid's gonna be, you know, it's all or nothing.

Henry: 43:16

Yeah. We invite them over for scones and then everyone's sitting around and we shame and yell at our loved one and threaten them, and then they go to treatment. Right,

Brenda: 43:25

right, right. That's, that's the.

Henry: 43:27

Common. I, I think people know that, that, or, or have an intimation that that's not necessarily what it is. But I, I think emotionally that is actually a, a big driver for people. Like, people intellectually understand that it's not that, but there is still that

Brenda: 43:45

Right,

Henry: 43:46

Sort of collective idea that that's what an intervention is.

Brenda: 43:49

Yeah. So talk to us about what, what does the modern day intervention look like? A more maybe. Enlightened or, you know, compassionate intervention because sometimes it is absolutely necessary. And, you know, we teach the craft approach. And I think there is a misperception within craft that, like craft is against interventions. And I don't believe that that is true. I think you have to use the, you have to take advantage of a motivational hook and then you have to, you apply the right. Procedure. Right. And I think at times an intervention is necessary. E even just for the fact that sometimes parents are way too emotionally connected and they are not able to have a conversation with their child on their own to ask them to accept help. So I would love to hear, 'cause I, I have never done an intervention, full disclosure, like, so I don't have that personal experience of what, that's what that looks like today.

Henry: 44:51

In the modern intervention, parents who are engaged in craft, I think already have some skills that make that an easier process. I, I think they're compatible skill sets. Certainly intervention has moved a little bit more invitational than it once was. I, I know for me, I. Very much try and avoid surprising anyone or like, like, I want to, want us to be, I mean, to be fair, tactful, but honest with this person and, and show them dignity and respect and I, I think. Parents are, are also often scared. Well, if we invite him, what, what if he doesn't show up? You know? And, and that's not been my experience. You know, I, I think we short sell how connected a lot of. People with these problems actually are with their family.

Brenda: 45:48

Mm-hmm. And how

Henry: 45:49

much of a drive there is to reconnect with their family.

Brenda: 45:52

Yeah.

Henry: 45:53

And there are obviously examples of how that's not true, but more invitational I think is always better. Giving someone a heads up so that it's not this huge jolting surprise. I think our language has, yeah, it has certainly changed. I know, I know when you know, one of the intervention models I'm trained in, we don't include a ton of certainly no judgements, but, but even sort of, well, you know, I saw you do this and this was really bad and it hurt me this way. Like we do on some level need to tell the truth. Right. And, and get everyone to understand what, you know, the harm that's been caused couched in a lot of love. I. And we don't include sort of the bottom lines or boundaries or, you know, how we're going to approach if this person chooses not to go to treatment. We don't include that in the first letter because the hope is that we don't even need to go there. And I've been surprised by. The love of the family and, and that's, I mean, I don't even like to use the word intervention with certain people because it's really just a structured family conversation. Right, right, right. Just like a family would have a conversation about any, any number of issues. We just, we're just structuring it a little bit more so we stay on track and sort of accomplish our goals more effectively. But really it's just the family coming together and expressing love and concern and letting, letting the person know that they care enough to have taken a whole bunch of action to support them.

Brenda: 47:31

Yeah. You know,

Henry: 47:31

because by the time we get to the intervention, they're, we're talking about hours of, of work on the family's part. I.

Brenda: 47:37

I was gonna say, it's not like you're just dropping in, you know, spur moment. No. Without planning. There's planning. Is that the arise approach that you use or is there something else?

Henry: 47:47

Love First. Love is the one I'm, I'm talking about Love first. Yeah. Nice. I'm, I'm Arise trained as well, and that's a little bit of a different process, but the themes of what I just described, loving and Dete Invitational, very strength centered or strength based. That's, that's the idea behind the rise too, from my experience.

Brenda: 48:08

Right. Yeah. It's there's just times where I know as a parent you need some reinforcement. Right. And, and people who have had those conversations before. And like you said, you know. Yeah, generally they show up because I think we, we tend to go to the, the doomsday scenario in our mind. So having some support from somebody who's been there before, done it before, seen all the things, heard the objections it can be really valuable. And then I always think to and I don't know if this is an area that you have expertise in or not, but I think about, especially youth. Who have experienced some trauma, whether that's sexual trauma or bullying or whatever it is. And then as a parent, you're thinking about, I thought about when we had my son transported. I'm thinking about the impact of that, right? Like am I just layering more trauma on top? If we have somebody come in, what's the, what's your thinking on that?

Henry: 49:16

I mean, I, I certainly think as a field and, and this is just my observation from my circles, but we, we've definitely moved away from the traditional adolescent transport sort of approach because I think nine times outta 10, it's, it's either traumatizing or at the very least, it creates a lot of resistance that, that that person then needs to work through, for, for sometimes a very long time in treatment when we really want them to be focusing on you, you know, the reasons that they're in treatment. Right. I, I do certainly think there are cases where you, you know, some kind of transport in a more traditional sense is needed. Very few. But there's a couple. And in that sense, even, you know. We've changed to, to have people who are intervention trained, who are very sort of loving and supportive and, you know, sort of work and meet that person where they are as they transition them into treatment. But cer certainly the old school sort of model. I've, I've heard and had many clients who had that experience as an adolescent. And it was either damaging or harder than it needed to be.

Brenda: 50:30

Mm,

Henry: 50:30

certainly. Yeah. In terms of their treatment process.

Brenda: 50:32

Yeah,

Henry: 50:33

because it is a relational rupture,

Brenda: 50:35

for sure. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that. That's, that's really good to hear. And I know I need to let you go, but before I do, could you just give us a quick like what's a typical family engagement with you? When are you typically getting called? What, what does the family look like? Just give us a little idea of what a, what a typical engagement might look like, knowing that, of course, they're all different.

Henry: 50:59

Yeah. You know, if a family's calling me about an intervention, that that can vary. You know, I get some families who have their, their child has never gone to treatment before, and so it's, it's very new. And you know, we're walking through that process. There's a lot of education and. You know, helping them with finding the right treatment and doing the intervention. And, and typically, I, I mean, a majority of my clients I work with for about nine months to a year. So really supporting them you know, providing that case management and sort of that hands-on you know, height. High su high touch support for the family working with the treatment team. You know, typically I, I'm seeing a lot of alcohol and cannabis these days, actually, which is interesting. I, I think actually some of the public you know, public health awareness campaigns about fentanyl actually have done something. Yes. Because you know, I, I I meet a lot of adolescents and young adults that, you know, I would expect them to be doing something like that and they don't. It's interesting.

Brenda: 52:04

Yeah.

Henry: 52:04

A lot of those, and then I do work with a lot of families who don't necessarily need an intervention per se but need. That sort of comprehensive support for their loved one who has had, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 treatment episodes and, and for whatever reason we haven't gotten much traction like you were talking about earlier. So really helping them with long-term, like I said, long-term strategy. You know, how do we really make this, make this stick. Right. And do what we need to do to really change, you know, the, the way the family interacts the way this person interacts with treatment. And, and usually it's how do we also widen the timeline on services, right? So, you know, helping this person to stay in services for longer than maybe they did in the past.

Brenda: 52:50

Yeah. Amazing. Well, we'll make sure there's a link in the show notes to your website so you can go and. Make sure and, and check out all of the amazing stuff that Henry does, and any word of wisdom for a family who's listening, who's got a kiddo maybe in their eighth program or maybe their second program, and they're just feeling it, feeling all the feels. Any any words of wisdom you'd like to part with?

Henry: 53:19

I would say two things. The first is there's no playbook for this. You do not need to know how to do this because there's no playbook for it and nobody is prepared for it. And, and it's okay to not know all the answers to, to how to navigate this. And and second, the paradoxical thing I've found is that if parents can really, really, really commit to their own work to taking care of themselves. To, to living their own life to the degree that they can and not hyper fixating all the time on their loved one who's struggling. I found paradoxically that that actually helps their loved one even, even though it may not seem that way. So going out on a little bit of a leap of faith and, and doing some of that stuff for yourself, I, I think actually produces some very meaningful long-term results.

Brenda: 54:11

Yeah. Well, you're speaking my language. Actually just did a podcast on that exact topic.

Henry: 54:17

Very nice.

Brenda: 54:18

Awesome. Henry, thank you so much. This has been amazing. We'll get links in the show notes to your website and just really thank you for the work that you're doing. It's such a blessing to the world.

Henry: 54:30

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.

Brenda: 54:32

Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to Hope Stream community.org and click on podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library. A search feature if you're looking for something specific. And also playlist, where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft recovery stories, solo episodes, siblings. We even have a start here playlist if you're new. Those are super helpful, so be sure to check them out. I also wanna let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse. The book is called Worried Sick. A compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol. And it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance. And let them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer. It's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried. To download that. You are amazing. You are such a rockstar, a super elite level parent. It's truly an honor to be here with you. And please know you are not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay. You'll make it through this season, and when you do, you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible. I'm sending all my love and light and I'll meet you right back here next week.