Why Your Struggling Child Pushes You Away: The Attachment Connection, with Todd Sarner

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

When a young person you love is struggling with substances or challenging behaviors, the instinct to fix everything can feel overwhelming. In this illuminating conversation, marriage and family therapist Todd Sarner brings decades of attachment science into sharp focus, and offers a roadmap for parents navigating the turbulent waters of adolescence. 

Drawing from his training with Dr. Gordon Neufeld and other attachment pioneers, Todd reveals why our kids' most hurtful behaviors often mask their deepest needs for connection. We explore the delicate dance between holding firm boundaries and maintaining compassion – what Todd beautifully describes as being both the "agent of futility" (clear limits) and the "angel of comfort" (empathy). We unpack why teenagers simultaneously push us away while desperately needing our presence, and how parents can invest in their own nervous systems to weather these storms.

Perhaps most powerfully, Todd reminds us that attachment isn't about perfection – research shows secure relationships miss connection bids 50-60% of the time. It's about showing up consistently, even imperfectly, with the understanding that our love remains the most powerful intervention we have.

You'll learn:

• Why sensitive kids often present as tough and disconnected – and how "defensive detachment" protects them from the pain of unmet connection needs
• The critical difference between punishment and boundaries, and how to communicate limits while preserving relationship
• How to navigate the teenage paradox: their biological drive for independence colliding with their continued need for guidance and safety
• Practical nervous system regulation techniques (including 4-7-8 breathing) that help parents stay grounded during explosive moments
• Why investing in your own self-care isn't selfish – it's essential preparation for holding space during your child's struggles
• The power of "bridging" – maintaining connection even through conflict, letting your child know that nothing can change your love for them

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Transformative Parenting website
• Todd’s Instagram

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Transcript

Todd Sarner: Our nervous systems are still wired for thousands of years ago. Our attachment systems are still wired for a long time ago. So your child has this thing inside that's telling them, I have to be my own person. I won't survive if I'm not my own person. I have to leave the home soon. Right? And that's in them and they're feeling that.

[00:00:23] Todd Sarner: And at the same time, and this just messes with 'em at the same time. They kind of need you more than ever because it's super overwhelming. And they need guidance and they need safety, and they need, uh, boundaries and they need protection, and they need all these things at the same time. 

[00:00:47] Brenda Zane: Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health.

[00:00:55] Brenda Zane: I'm Brenda Zane. I've walked this path with my own child's addiction and high risk lifestyle. Each week we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly, find real hope in what might feel helpless. You are not helpless and you're not alone anymore. Find more resources at hopestreamcommunity.org.

[00:01:18] Brenda Zane: Hey Todd, thanks so much for hopping on with me. We, I had to like pause you and hit record 'cause we were covering such good stuff in our pre-conversation. 

[00:01:28] Todd Sarner: Yeah, yeah. An hour in, we were like, oh, we should hit record just in Oh, 

[00:01:31] Brenda Zane: right. Yeah, exactly. So that happens sometimes. Um, when I get on with somebody who understands the whole parenting dynamic, which you absolutely do.

[00:01:42] Brenda Zane: So welcome to Hopestream. I'm really glad to have you. 

[00:01:45] Todd Sarner: Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. 

[00:01:47] Brenda Zane: Yeah. I love talking to people who work with couples in particular. Even if there's, um, you know, like a single mom or a single dad that's has a kiddo who's struggling, [00:02:00] there's typically someone else involved, you know, maybe an ex, uh, something like that.

[00:02:05] Brenda Zane: Or even other family members that are so well-meaning and always wanna give their input. So there's just all kinds of relationship twists and turns that parents deal with. And I really wanted to talk with you because you do a lot of couples counseling, couples counseling around parenting. So just give me an idea of kind of what a typical engagement looks like for you or across the spectrum.

[00:02:31] Brenda Zane: What are you doing all day long on that? Micros? I know you're talking all day long. 

[00:02:37] Todd Sarner: Yeah, yeah. Um. Yeah, I love my work. Um, and, uh, most days, but I, I love my work, but I have two, two different hats that I wear. Um, the one, mostly the one in professionally is, uh, parent coaching. So in a way that's my first love.

[00:02:58] Todd Sarner: I mean, I wanted to work with [00:03:00] kids, um, all through grad school and things. And then partly because of my mentorship that I had with Dr. Gordon Neufeld, um, the developmental psychologist and author, and becoming a dad myself, I really decided, no, I want to help parents. And by that more deeply, I mean, I want to help kids by helping parents.

[00:03:22] Todd Sarner: And so I went really into parent coaching in the Neufeld kind of model. I don't know if you're familiar with his book. Yes. Hold onto Your Kids. I just loved it when my kid was like 1-year-old. I found it and like. This makes so much sense. I love this paradigm of attachment. It connects all the dots of things I learned in grad school, um, because I went through a very expensive, very long education, and then I went to become a parent myself.

[00:03:50] Todd Sarner: I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. 

[00:03:52] Brenda Zane: I was like, wait a minute. 

[00:03:54] Todd Sarner: I have about 16 theories in my head about what other people say, um, uh, [00:04:00] children are supposed to do. But I, I'm like, I don't know what. So, um, finding Neufeld book when my son was very young, um, really got me on a path and I just decided I, I want to help kids by helping the parents.

[00:04:15] Todd Sarner: That I believe parents are the answer for their children, not the experts. And that the experts are mostly supposed to be in the background helping support, uh, the parents. Obviously there's exceptions, so don't hear me differently. But then somewhere along the way, um. A few years into it, people kept telling me about this woman, Sue Johnson.

[00:04:41] Todd Sarner: And uh, I remember somebody on an airplane saw me reading an attachment something book and they said, oh, attachment. Well, so you must know Sue Johnson. I'm like, well, I've heard of Sue Johnson and her, um, emotionally focused therapy for couples, but I'm not really a couple's guy. I help parents with their kids.

[00:04:59] Todd Sarner: And, [00:05:00] um, the more I kept hearing her name and I told her this when I, when I first met her, um, I was like, okay, fine. And I, I looked into, I'm like, yes, this is part of the mission too, obviously, like how we are relating as parents and how we're holding a container and how we are doing. Um, and our relationship obviously matters to the child as well.

[00:05:23] Todd Sarner: And so I trained with Sue, um, and one of her students, uh, Rebecca Jorgensen for about a year. Then I found may be relevant to our. Her conversation, the work of Dr. Stan Tatkin and I got into one of, um, his first couples training groups and, um, like Gordon Neufeld and like Sue Johnson, um, Stan's main focus was attachment.

[00:05:51] Todd Sarner: And I don't know how much you guys have talked about attachment here. We can go into it more a little bit, not 

[00:05:56] Brenda Zane: too much, 

[00:05:56] Todd Sarner: but it was about attachment science and, uh, the importance of [00:06:00] attachment science. It would make sense to, to at least mention that in a minute. Um, but Stan also brought in regulation and the nervous system and how we trigger each other, how we can even make a look on our face sometimes or use a tone that can get our partner worked up, or our children, or our children can do to us.

[00:06:20] Todd Sarner: And that's a whole nother thing separate from the, the psychological emotional system. There is a nervous system that's actually involved in these things. So that's a very long answer. To your question, but what do I do in a day? I'm, I am usually moving between talking to parents about parenting and how to get on the same page about, um, their children's attachment needs and creating the right environment in the home and responding to behaviors in a way that are relationship friendly and effective.

[00:06:52] Todd Sarner: But then the other part of the day is talking to those same parents, but about their relationship and how [00:07:00] they're relating to each other, and lots of good words that I know you and I are gonna want to talk about, about boundaries, um, with each other and with the kids and what healthy boundaries look like and how we, I always say it in this way, how we communicate from those boundaries, right?

[00:07:16] Todd Sarner: Yeah. And how, what effective communication looks like. Am I pointing a finger or casting aspersions or judging or saying your motivation, or am I being a little bit more vulnerable and being open to how I feel? Again, you have to be careful with what you ask me. It's a long, long answer, but that's what I do.

[00:07:37] Todd Sarner: I'm either working with parents over here or working with parents over here and sometimes they cross over. 

[00:07:42] Brenda Zane: Yes, I could imagine. Can imagine. Yeah. 

[00:07:44] Todd Sarner: Occasionally I'll have a, um, an individual client that I did one of the first works with and they say, Hey, I need some more work on my stuff really. And my childhood of origin stuff that's help not, it's kind of getting in the way of me showing up the [00:08:00] way that we talked about.

[00:08:01] Todd Sarner: Yeah. There or there, right? 

[00:08:03] Brenda Zane: Yeah. 

[00:08:04] Todd Sarner: Do we have any time left? Um, 

[00:08:06] Brenda Zane: well, we can do, we do. But that was incredibly helpful. And I'm curious about when you start working with a couple, are they at the point usually where they're like, Hmm, we, we, you know, they're recognizing that they're playing a part, maybe in the family dynamic that isn't so.

[00:08:26] Brenda Zane: Good. Or are you having to break? 

[00:08:28] Todd Sarner: You mean like affecting the kids? Yeah. 

[00:08:30] Brenda Zane: Or are you like breaking the news to them to say, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but this kid over here that you have who's struggling and you know, maybe it's substance use, maybe it's just behavioral or whatever. What, what is that conversation like?

[00:08:45] Brenda Zane: Because I think there's sometimes, and I know I was caught off guard with this when my son started struggling, I was like, oh, wait a minute. It's like, I have a role in this. You know, I just really truly wasn't aware, right? I wasn't, I [00:09:00] wasn't like that from this, like, I'm this high, mighty person. It just never even occurred to me that I was really severely impacting that dynamic with my son.

[00:09:10] Brenda Zane: So, I dunno if I asked a very clear question. 

[00:09:13] Todd Sarner: Yeah. It's a, it's a no no. I, I, I think I get it and let's just keep figuring it out together and make sure we're lining up. But, um, I, I would say to answer the. First, you know, kinda iteration of what you're saying. Um, I, I, I think there's usually one partner that when they come to me as a couple that is, um, maybe the canary in the coal mine.

[00:09:41] Todd Sarner: Um, in a way, in the family system, that's the one saying we are doing something here, we are doing something that's not good and it's not good for us, but it's also not good for our kids. Um, yeah, that's kind of common if that's what you're asking there originally. Um, the thing I always wanna be [00:10:00] careful about and not overly careful about, but the thing I wanna be careful about and insensitive to is, um, shaming parents or judging parents.

[00:10:12] Todd Sarner: You'll usually hear me talking about positive responsibility, which I am familiar with your work. I've listened to you. I know that's what you advocate for. It doesn't help anybody. Uh, to shame anybody or judge and goodness knows, um, parents get enough of that, um, uh, from relatives, from culture, um, including if you have a, a child that's struggling with something like a behavior problem or an addiction, there can be all sorts of real or perceived, uh, judgment that happens there.

[00:10:46] Todd Sarner: So that's just my long way of saying, um, do we have a role in, um, what's going on with our kids? Well, yeah, obviously we do, but that doesn't mean blame, that doesn't mean on [00:11:00] purpose. That doesn't, you know. Yeah. Um, there's obviously we can go over cases and we could go, uh, that was, that was really not, really not healthy.

[00:11:09] Todd Sarner: Yeah. Um, that behavior you're engaged with. But I also kind of wanna enter into the discussion as well. Something I know, you know, also is sometimes, um, what we're also dealing with is just. Um, the situation around your child, which may not always have everything to do with you and their own personal sensitivity, 

[00:11:33] Todd Sarner 3: their 

[00:11:34] Todd Sarner: own, um, right, because when we talk about kids that are struggling with behaviors, including kids that are struggling with addiction, you know, better than anyone.

[00:11:45] Todd Sarner: Like, we're almost always dealing with a sensitive kid, you know? Oh, and that's not always obvious because of the way that they present, right? Yes. Because sometimes they don't present really sensitive. We can talk about attachment, we can talk about [00:12:00] defensive detachment, that might be useful, but, but I just wanna also just kind of enter into the conversation about our impact on our kids.

[00:12:09] Todd Sarner: There's also the environment, um, that you're in, and there's also their own sensitivity and disposition. And that plays such a big part because, like I said, I have found in my experience, although I don't. Um, address addiction specifically in my practice. Uh, it does come up a lot in my practice and I have done trainings, um, in ef uh, um, EMDR in addiction.

[00:12:37] Todd Sarner: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, uh, different things, um, in the past. But, um, yeah, the sensitivity of the child is almost always present. Like it, when people come to me about anything, including a behavior problem or our kid is starting to experiment here, we're kind of worried about it. Um, it's always clear in the first conversation they have three kids and that's their sensitive one.

[00:12:58] Brenda Zane: Right. It's [00:13:00] so interesting. It's, you know, I talk a lot about sort of this template that I've just seen over the years, and I'm not a therapist. I just, I observe and I see this pattern of the sensitivity and, um, I had the great fortune of having Dr. Gaba mate on the podcast and he talked about. That, you know, like if you've got a sunburn and it's raw and there's something scratching at it all the time, that's kind of what we think of as our, our sensitive kids.

[00:13:30] Brenda Zane: But you're so right that they don't always present that way externally. And I know my son definitely didn't, at least he didn't, to the point that I recognized it when he was younger. I recognized a lot of sensitivity to like tactical sensitivity, noise, tastes, smells, things like that. But I did not understand the emotional sensitivity.

[00:13:55] Brenda Zane: Yeah. But you're saying that's pretty common. 

[00:13:57] Todd Sarner: Yeah. And I, [00:14:00] I love Gabor's work. Um, I don't know the audience knows, but he co-wrote my mentor's book, um, hold Onto Your Kids. Um, because, and he's public about this. He was a client of Dr. Neufeld and went to him. About his kids and was like, make a book. Make a book.

[00:14:18] Todd Sarner: And Dr. Nvo, I don't wanna make a book. I don't have the, I don't wanna do it. And Gabor's like, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. You know, with his kinda a DHD kinda, you know, thing. I've had some wonderful conversations with him and I, I actually am so appreciating where he is now in his life and his career because it just feels like everything's coming together for him.

[00:14:39] Todd Sarner: And I've really appreciated his work on addiction, like a realm of the Hungry ghosts and, and Johan Hari as well. I really, really like the stuff that he talks about with attachment and, um, and addiction. Is it okay if, like in case some of your or, um, audience is not familiar with what [00:15:00] I'm talking about when I talk about attachment is okay to do a little bit of a a hundred percent.

[00:15:04] Todd Sarner: Yeah. So when we talk about attachment. Um, there's all sorts of messages out there, including on blogs and things about attachment parenting or attachment, this and that, and a lot of it's really positive. And then a lot of it is this straw man argument thing out there that, um, the attachment parent I know, um, is a helicopter parent and never lets their kid out of their sight.

[00:15:29] Todd Sarner: And so I don't like that thing. And it's like, that's not actually what attachment science is. Attachment science is not that controversial, but it just feels like it would be a couple terms really quick. Might be helpful for our conversation. 

[00:15:43] Brenda Zane: Yes, 

[00:15:44] Todd Sarner: definitely. Um, attachment science is really, I'll use Dr.

[00:15:47] Todd Sarner: Neufeld definition. He says attachment is the instinct that we are all born with to hold close and to keep close to those that we [00:16:00] hold most dear. And if you know anything about Dr. Neufeld is a very loaded explanation. There's a lot in there. It's the instinct that we're born with to hold close and to keep close to those that we hold most dear.

[00:16:14] Todd Sarner: When he elaborates, he says at first, that's what people think of as typical baby bonding behaviors. Keep that baby close, hold them a lot. Um, maybe sleep with them. If, if, if that works out in your family sometimes. Um, um, but there's no rule in attachment science that says you have to do that If you're able to Nurse.

[00:16:35] Todd Sarner: Nurse, great. Um, because that body to body contact and the holding, and that's very womb like security. But I also just saw a picture of me and my son when he was a baby and he's, I'm bare chested and he's on my chest and I'm holding him. And that's a similar, he just turned 22 and I'm gonna cry if you right.

[00:16:56] Todd Sarner: Make me. Um, but, um, [00:17:00] that, that, that's attachment. Attachment is. At first, it's baby bonding, but over time it's meant to also become a, a, a psychological in the head and a, an emotional in the heart connection that I know you're there. Yeah, I know you're there. That I'm, if I'm scared, I'm lonely, I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed.

[00:17:23] Todd Sarner: I'm feeling not enough. I'm feeling too much that I can ping you. And I, I don't like using that word, but I can do something, a bid for connection like John Gottman says, um, or a, or a signal and you'll, you'll hear my signal and you'll respond to it as best you can. You know, and that over time, that helps build a foundation of security.

[00:17:47] Todd Sarner: Now, before I say the corresponding term of defensive detachment, let me say what maybe some of your listeners are thinking right now, because I've done this a while, that a couple thousand [00:18:00] clients I know where. Parents go sometimes when they hear that, including if we're talking about addiction, right? Oh, Todd just said, I messed up because I remember that time that they, uh, bid for connection and I missed it.

[00:18:21] Todd Sarner: That's not what Todd just said, and I don't believe I'm talking about myself in the third place. Um, it works. Thank you. Um, that's a long haul. It's thousands of reps over time, it does not require perfection. In fact, a lot of the attachment science research shows that the most secure parent child dyads, there's something like 40, 50, 60% of the time you miss 'em.

[00:18:49] Todd Sarner 3: Hmm. 

[00:18:49] Todd Sarner: Okay. Like I, I, I'm chronic, I wanna say, um, I forget the, the stat right now, but. I think it's something like 50, 60% of the time you might not [00:19:00] miss it because if, if they're sitting there and judging in a lab, it's your kid smiles at you, but you had accidentally your attention got called to your other kid and you missed that smile and your kid got, they would go, you missed it.

[00:19:13] Todd Sarner: Right? Right. But the point I'm trying to make is attachment science is not controversial in the psychological world. It's, it's saying, look, there are a lot of things going on around your child and their sensitivity matters, but their secure attachment to you growing up is the number one factor in how they learn to have relationships, how they feel good about themselves and how they behave day to day.

[00:19:45] Todd Sarner: And that most of us don't do a perfect job, but our goal is to try to get that child to as secure of a place as possible, you know? Again, in this context, if you have a super, super, super sensitive [00:20:00] child, it's really a lot harder to fill that cup. Yeah. And that's not all on you. It's sometimes I use, am I going on a little?

[00:20:11] Todd Sarner: No, it's perfect. Too much about this topic. No, this is great. Like, I sometimes if I had a, a glass on my desk, which for some reason I don't, I'll hold up a glass and I know some of you're listening and I'll say, um, you know, think of your child's secure base as being like a glass. And when your child is feeling, like, think of them when they're four years old and you're just loving them and you're just got all this energy for 'em and it things are locked in and they just feel super loved.

[00:20:39] Todd Sarner: That kid doesn't clinging, that kid doesn't, mommy, mommy, mommy. That kid goes off and they play and they explore because they feel really full. The tether gets longer. Does that make sense? Yeah. The tether, because they kind of know you're there. 

[00:20:55] Todd Sarner 3: Yeah. 

[00:20:56] Todd Sarner: But when they're low in their cup, [00:21:00] they're gonna poke and prod and push over their little sister and do all these things.

[00:21:06] Todd Sarner: And one of the things to understand as a parent is when your kids are born, they're completely insecure and it's very hard to keep that cup filled. Very hard to keep that cup filled. They don't even know you're gonna, they don't even know you exist when you're in the other room. Right. Okay. At first, object permanence, they don't know that Ma, oh, mommy comes back, you know, mommy left.

[00:21:30] Todd Sarner: Ah, mommy comes back. And over time they go, oh, mommy usually comes back. That's how insecure they start off with. Right? So attachment is saying, Hey, over time we're just working in that direction, including wherever you might be there in the audience with your child. Right now, you're just still working. In that direction.

[00:21:49] Todd Sarner: And so anything I give you in terms of guidance would be about how do you just keep going in that direction. But the other thing, if it's okay, I just wanna mention really quick, [00:22:00] is there's a corresponding instinct that comes right along with the instinct to attach. And that's the instinct to detach. And what that, what the way Dr.

[00:22:13] Todd Sarner: Neufeld describes it is, my instinct I'm born with is if I love you, I wanna be with you. I wanna be connected to you. I, I want to do good by you. If, if you and I are best friends and we've known each other forever and we're tight, do you have to leverage me? Do you have to like, go, Todd, you have to do this or this?

[00:22:34] Todd Sarner: No, you go, Todd, hey, I really need help. And I go, of course I will be right there. Right, right. It's just my instinct. But when that instinct to be close to someone. And my sensitivity plays a big part in this leads to me getting hurt or frustrated because I can't quite hold on to you the way I want to, which does have partly to do with you and the environment we create.

[00:22:59] Todd Sarner: But [00:23:00] it also has to do with me, well then what happens in the most sensitive kids, but all kids, all people married people with their spouse. If I'm getting too frustrated trying to be close to you, my brain is gonna go, Uhuh. Stop. Stop doing that. Stop trying, and then you get that. I don't care. Whatever. The truth is, not, they don't care.

[00:23:25] Todd Sarner: That's not the truth. The truth is because I care so much, I have to pretend right now that I don't because it hurts too bad not to pretend. And we could unpack that for hours, right? 

[00:23:40] Brenda Zane: Yes. It feels like that's that. They go into a protective mode of, okay, this isn't feeling good, or I'm not getting what I need.

[00:23:49] Brenda Zane: This doesn't feel safe. I'm going to throw up a, especially, I'm thinking of teenagers, I'm gonna throw up this stance of tough guy, you [00:24:00] know, f you, I don't care. Which we see so much of, and it's so confusing as a parent because you're like, but wait, this is my sweet kid, my boy, my daughter, whatever. And I'm get, and I'm seeing this behavior and I'm hearing these words that are so hurtful and you know, we, we constantly are hearing you are the worst mom in the world, or you're the worst dad, and you know, how could you do this to me?

[00:24:27] Brenda Zane: Or all these different things. And it is just mind numbing when you're sitting there thinking like, what did I do to deserve this? Right. Where did I go so wrong that my 17-year-old is swearing at me? And, you know, it's, it's so, so confusing and so hurtful. 

[00:24:51] Todd Sarner: Yeah. So could you wanna unpack that for a minute?

[00:24:54] Todd Sarner: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, okay, so first maybe what we [00:25:00] try to do as, as best we can is have compassion to start, right? We were all teenagers and boy, it was not easy. Um, you know, Daniel Siegel, who I did some training with, I think he, he called his book about teenagers, uh, brainstorm or mindstorm or something to explain like, yes.

[00:25:20] Todd Sarner: Brain. I think it's 

[00:25:20] Brenda Zane: brainstorm. Yeah. 

[00:25:21] Todd Sarner: Yeah. Um, oh man, there's a lot going on there, right? But let's just break it down to a couple dynamics, like, uh, uh, to do with what you said, one of the most important things to understand what's going on, about what's going on with your teenager is they have this deep, deep.

[00:25:40] Todd Sarner: Biological evolutionary drive towards an individuation. Okay. And you know, we're sitting here talking in North America, um, and, you know, most of us even that are just struggling to get by a little better or whatever, probably have it better than a lot of places in the world. [00:26:00] Um, but it wasn't that long ago that when you're 13, that meant you're getting married now and you're taking over the family business.

[00:26:10] Todd Sarner: That wasn't that long ago. And it still exists in the world. Okay. 

[00:26:14] Todd Sarner 3: Yeah. 

[00:26:15] Todd Sarner: Um, evolution doesn't move that fast. Our nervous systems are still wired for thousands of years ago. Our attachment systems are still wired for a long time ago. So your child has this thing inside that's telling them I have to be my own person.

[00:26:34] Todd Sarner: I won't survive if I'm not my own person. I have to leave the home soon. Right. And that's in them and they're feeling that. And at the same time, and this just messes with 'em at the same time, they kind of need you more than ever because it's super overwhelming and they need guidance and they need safety and they need, uh, boundaries [00:27:00] and they need protection, and they need all these things at the same time.

[00:27:05] Todd Sarner: And depending on what time of the day it's happening. Yes. Right. Or how hungry they are. Right. Your teenager will be a little pain in the, but in the morning or something, be sometimes because they're gearing up to go to school and they're kind of stealing up to go deal with the slings and arrows of adolescent interaction in a way.

[00:27:29] Todd Sarner: And then that same teenager will come to you at 10 o'clock at night when you're just trying to go to bed because you're exhausted. Mom, can I tell you about something that happened today? Yes. What in the actual, right. Right. And then sometimes we make a big mistake. And please believe me, I have compassion for that moment because I know that moment.

[00:27:52] Todd Sarner: But you go, honey, mommy's so exhausted. Is it okay if we talk about it tomorrow and they say yes? And then what happens? 

[00:27:59] Brenda Zane: [00:28:00] We forget 

[00:28:00] Todd Sarner: what happens when you bring it up tomorrow. 

[00:28:02] Brenda Zane: Well, they're either we forget or they're crazy and they're angry and they are like, 

[00:28:06] Todd Sarner: but you know, no, it's like that wall goes back up.

[00:28:09] Todd Sarner: That's right. Because before bed, the wall's going down. 

[00:28:12] Todd Sarner 3: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:13] Todd Sarner: And that wall has partially to do with you because what if they were being a little pain in the butt earlier and you got mad at them and you like, like, God, why are you being so ungrateful? You don't have a bad life. Do you know what a bad life?

[00:28:25] Todd Sarner: Do you know what I did when I was, you know? Yes. Right? Yes. Does that make the wall come down, or does that make the wall? Right now it's, oh, mom doesn't understand. Mom doesn't get it right. Dad doesn't get it, and then they kind of want the wall to go down so they can go to sleep. And when the wall goes down they're like, oh, I want to go talk to mom.

[00:28:46] Todd Sarner: So that's your opportunity, right? So the first thing I think when you explain that scenario that so many of my clients, so many of your clients maybe me, have gone through, um, that's what I think of is [00:29:00] please understand the chemical storm and the evolutionary storm that they're going through. And maybe if we start with compassion, that's the best place we can start.

[00:29:10] Todd Sarner: But also there's a adaptive process. And the adaptive process is, I have a bunch of frustration inside. Some of it probably has to do with you parent, and some of it might be for good reasons. You told me no for a good reason, but that still frustrates me. Other times you made a mistake and that pisses me off and frustrates me and I'm a teenager, so justice is the most important thing.

[00:29:36] Todd Sarner: Um, in a lot of ways. 

[00:29:40] Brenda Zane: Hey, I wanna pause for just a sec to talk about something that has been life-changing for so many women who started right where you might be by listening to the show. If you're feeling the isolation, the exhaustion, like nobody gets what you're going through. There is a place designed specifically for you.

[00:29:57] Brenda Zane: The stream is our private community for moms [00:30:00] and female caregivers. Her parenting teens and young adults through substance use and mental health struggles. And when I say private, I mean completely confidential. It is not connected to Facebook or any other platform, or your business could become everyone's business.

[00:30:16] Brenda Zane: What members love about this stream is that you can be as visible or as anonymous as you want. Some moms jump right into conversations and calls. Others like to read and learn quietly in the background. Both are perfect. It's not social media. It's genuine community focused on learning growth and breaking through the isolation that might be keeping you from moving forward.

[00:30:38] Brenda Zane: Right now. Whether your child is in active use in treatment or early recovery, you'll find practical strategies and tools that actually help motivate healthier choices because we know you wanna see positive change in your family. Check it out@hopedreamcommunity.org. We would love to welcome you into this village of [00:31:00] support and understanding.

[00:31:02] Brenda Zane: Okay. Back to the show. 

[00:31:05] Todd Sarner: And I have to be able to feel those feelings and I need to be able to process them, and I need to be able to release them. Like the stages of grief, you know? And a lot of times that involves me crying, that involves me feeling my feelings, me struggling with them, but me finally just giving up, struggling with them and just going, that happened, right?

[00:31:25] Todd Sarner: And what happens when we do that in life? We cry. We have a big blubbery, gross, letting it all out. Cry. Not trying to change. My mom's mind cry, but I'm actually releasing it. And then what happens? I feel better. I feel relieved a lot of times. I have a good idea right there. Right. So the reason I'm bringing this all up to you, and it has to do with just teenagers, like you said, but it also to me has to do with maybe the situation.

[00:31:52] Todd Sarner: A lot of your. Listeners find themselves in, um, uh, with a child that might be struggling with [00:32:00] addiction or, or something else, um, is they need us to be a reliable, safe person to help them go through that process. And if we're fighting with them or whatever, I'm not sending that signal that I'm safe to, to talk to.

[00:32:18] Todd Sarner: You know, I, I use the example all the time. Brenda's, um, goodwill hunting. 

[00:32:22] Todd Sarner 3: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:23] Todd Sarner: Um, you know, that's kind of an example of an angry young man that had a lot going on. We find out later that he was abused as a child. He's court ordered to go see Robin Williams and Robin Williams cares for him. I won't say loves him at first, but cares for him and, um, builds a bond with him.

[00:32:44] Todd Sarner: But he also sets limits with him, right? He doesn't let him get away with being a little jerk. He didn't let him get away with talking badly about his dead wife or, or calling out his experience or trying to, um, you know, IM impose [00:33:00] himself over Robin Williams with his mighty intellect. Robin Williams sets boundaries with him, right?

[00:33:06] Todd Sarner: And says, this isn't okay. But by the end of the movie, he confronts him with his abuse with the, the famous scene. It's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. And because of the bond, because he set limits in the right way because he's gained his care and respect, Matt Damon is able to cry and he's able to finally feel all the built up stuff from his childhood that he'd been bearing inside and it resulted in violence and him hitting people who would just talk back to him or something and was getting, and by the end of that movie, you knew he was gonna be okay.

[00:33:48] Todd Sarner: You knew he's gonna be okay now because somebody guided him through that experience going off on tangents again, Brenda, but does it make sense? 

[00:33:58] Brenda Zane: It [00:34:00] does. It does. And I, I think what can be really hard, uh, I'll speak for myself is to, yeah, when, when your child is in that mode of being angry or blaming or you know, they're not happy with the boundary that you set, I think we often take it so personally versus what I'm hearing, like we've kind of feel like a punching bag.

[00:34:27] Brenda Zane: And I think what I'm hearing you say is, yeah, for a bit while they're going through the storm of crazy, like 

[00:34:35] Todd Sarner: maybe may, maybe, maybe not. I, I think I thank you for following up that way because I think I probably left something hanging a little bit. My point is more that I, I wouldn't ask anybody to take abuse.

[00:34:51] Todd Sarner: I wouldn't ask anybody to take any behavior that is crossing a line, um, that feels harmful. That's not what I'm saying. [00:35:00] I was starting off with have compassion. Yes. I was starting off with trying to explain some things that might help you not take it personally as much. Right. That's, that's my therapist instinct is to go there, Hey, this is what's going on.

[00:35:19] Todd Sarner: You don't have to like it, you don't have to accept it. You can say, no, you can't do that like Robin Williams did, but at least don't Robin Williams. The movie could have been 20 minutes long if Robin Williams said, I'm not taking this from you. You little punk, get outta here. Right, right. Movie over. Right, right.

[00:35:37] Todd Sarner: Goodwill Hunting too. He is still mad and, but no, I don't think anybody has to take any abusive behavior. I think I, I always think of it as a holistic thing. One, let's understand the whole environment. Let's really focus on attachment when we can. Let's, let's focus on being a safe container as much as we can and do our own work.

[00:35:59] Todd Sarner: [00:36:00] But let's understand that setting boundaries with your child is not punishment, and it doesn't have to be harsh, and it doesn't have to cause problems. If you're doing boundaries the right way, and sometimes all interchange limits and boundaries, you're being firm, you're being clear. You're being consistent.

[00:36:19] Todd Sarner: You don't have to use a million words. You don't have to do a TED talk or read them the right act. You can be clear that's not okay. That's not what we do. But you also balance that out as, as Neufeld originally trained me with compassion and empathy. I know you're having a hard time. I, I know you're feeling rip.

[00:36:41] Todd Sarner: I know you're really mad at me right now. I get it. I'm not perfect. And I absolutely understand why you might be mad at me because part of this is I made a mistake and part of it's, I'm telling you things you don't want to hear. 

[00:36:54] Todd Sarner 3: Yeah. 

[00:36:55] Todd Sarner: But that doesn't excuse talking to me that way. I strive not to speak to [00:37:00] you that way.

[00:37:01] Todd Sarner: And I expect that from you because I love you and I am good to you. And I'm not making you feel guilty. I'm just saying that's just not what we do. That's not our culture. That's not how we handle things. But you made a mistake. Yeah, you're right. I did. I'm just saying I strive to talk to you with respect and I try to always remember no matter how mad I am at you, that I love you.

[00:37:24] Todd Sarner: And sometimes I probably forget. Yeah. But it's not okay to talk to me that way. But I, but I care about what you're going through right now. So I'd like to get past this part of it and get to what you're actually going through right now. And if that's right now, or if that's in 10 minutes, you wanna cool off for a minute, that's cool.

[00:37:43] Todd Sarner: I will be here. And no matter we call it bridging, but no matter what happens, nothing is gonna change that. I love you. And no matter what you say to me, I was thinking of the Cure song Now Love song, but no matter what [00:38:00] you say to me, I'm gonna love you. Yeah. Right. And it's like holding that, right? It's holding that container.

[00:38:08] Todd Sarner: That's hard. 

[00:38:09] Brenda Zane: That is hard. I'm not telling 

[00:38:11] Todd Sarner: you or anyone else here that that's easy. I'm not telling you I execute perfectly on that at all. And I have a lot of experience. I talk to people about this 

[00:38:21] Todd Sarner 3: every 

[00:38:21] Todd Sarner: single day for the last couple decades. 

[00:38:23] Todd Sarner 3: Right? Right. And 

[00:38:24] Todd Sarner: still I'm imperfect and I don't do it right sometimes.

[00:38:26] Todd Sarner: And sometimes I'm go, oh my God, what did I just do? I can't even face my clients tomorrow because I just lost my mind. But I strive to keep moving towards that, you know? Yes. I strive to keep getting better at it, and if something really comes up, I go, okay, I need to look at that. But that's not my kid's problem.

[00:38:44] Todd Sarner: I need to go over here and, and deal with that, you know? 

[00:38:47] Brenda Zane: Yes. I think that what you just said there is really important because I think it takes a certain amount of lowering of our ego to say to our kids, I don't have all the answers. I don't know, I, you know, [00:39:00] I don't know what I'm doing. I've never had a kid addicted to Fentanyl before, so I'm figuring it out as we go, but I, for real, but nothing you could do would make me stop loving you.

[00:39:10] Brenda Zane: I kind of wanna like, absolutely. I'm sure people are gonna rewind that and go back to your words, because sometimes it's just finding the right words to say, like, we feel it in our bones. Like, I love this kid so much, even though they're making me crazy right now. That we have a hard time getting the words out.

[00:39:28] Brenda Zane: So I really love the language that you used there, because it felt strong and it felt, uh, you know, I'll use the word boundaried, which I don't even know if that's a word, but it felt like I knew you were serious. The word. You're, you know, you're serious. But it, it came across as very loving and compassionate.

[00:39:49] Brenda Zane: Yeah. And it's, I think it's hard to find that balance in words, especially when emotions are heightened and parents are scared. And maybe we can touch on that a [00:40:00] little bit, is when we are operating from that place of fear. 'cause our kids are doing really scary things and we're legitimately scared for their life.

[00:40:10] Brenda Zane: It takes, it takes so much to be able to have a controlled, measured, calm, confident conversation, right. With somebody. 

[00:40:20] Todd Sarner: Oh, for sure. For sure. That's why, again, the struggle for me is, most of my message is most of parenting is what you do that's proactive. That's before the problem, you know, and that's not some.

[00:40:37] Todd Sarner: Yeah. So therefore you messed up. It's like that's a constant thing, right? Mm-hmm. But that parenting is not supposed to be what you do to your kid. When they do something to make 'em stop doing that thing, that's a constant whack-a-mole game, you know? Um, parenting is mostly about, like, for instance, what are you doing parent to take care of you right now?

[00:40:58] Todd Sarner: Because especially when things are [00:41:00] hard, it's like, but I have, I have to take care and I have to, and I have to, and I have to. Okay, I get that. That's real. But are you on Facebook? Are you on socials? Are you watching a lot? Are you the, is there some place where you can do a meditation practice in the morning?

[00:41:15] Todd Sarner: You can go walk in nature, you can go to a support group. You can do something that is helping you. Because when it comes to those moments, by the time am I allowed to curse by the time stuff, by the time stuff is hitting the fan, and you all know what I mean? By the time stuff is hitting the fan, it's almost too late to to, to, um, be in our right mind.

[00:41:41] Todd Sarner: You know, it, it's, it's, um, by the time the stuff's hitting the fan, I was, I was laugh at that, um, that show Seinfeld, and I'll use this with my clients a lot. Like, um, they had the episode where George's father had a mantra, and his mantra was when he was really stressed out and he was stressed out. Jerry Stiller, I [00:42:00] think the actor, um, he would get all red like steams coming out of his ears.

[00:42:03] Todd Sarner: He would get, you know, but this episode, he and Kramer were both doing the Serenity now. Serenity 

[00:42:10] Todd Sarner 3: now, 

[00:42:11] Todd Sarner: you know, and the joke was, you're not serene, dude. That's not happening right now. And if we just, we can do, let's do another episode sometime and we'll just talk about the nervous system. Maybe we can touch on it a little.

[00:42:25] Todd Sarner: But just a thing about the nervous system is you have that sympathetic branch, which, which is your fight or flight branch. That's like the accelerator on your car and you have the parasympathetic branch, that's your rest and digest your calm, the thing you feel like you've done yoga for an hour. Just your feelings zen right now.

[00:42:46] Todd Sarner: That's your parasympathetic. One of the most important practical things to understand about your nervous system is by the time you're flipping your lid, you have no parasympathetic right now. You're in your amygdala, you're in your [00:43:00] brainstem. You can't find that thing that Todd and you know, Brent talked about on the podcast that day, because that's not where blood is going in your brain right now.

[00:43:10] Todd Sarner: Okay? So you, you don't have access to that file. So part, uh, I, what you're saying is so big and there's so many aspects that we could talk about and, but one of the thing is invest in your nervous system. Invest in that parasympathetic tone because it's bankable. You can build it up. Okay? Um. 4, 7, 8.

[00:43:32] Todd Sarner: Breathing is one of my favorite things to do. Breathe in deeply through your nose, into your belly, not into your chest. So the count of four, hold it about seven counts. Release through your mouth. Uh, long, slow breath. Eight. I just taught you something that's more valuable than yes, half the things out there.

[00:43:51] Todd Sarner: But I can't write a book about it because I just taught you in 10 seconds. 

[00:43:55] Brenda Zane: Right. You know, you'd have to have a long filler 

[00:43:57] Todd Sarner: content there. I know. So let me go [00:44:00] back to what I said on page one again, and let me give you another anecdote. Um, Dr. Andrew, we has a very good, like five or six minute video on YouTube about what I just said, but, um, doing those things that charge up your nervous system proactively is one of the most practical, useful things you can do.

[00:44:23] Todd Sarner: Because if you go in with a frazzled nervous system into that interaction with your child. Versus you've been kind of working on your bait and your, your ground and your nervous system being calm. It still might be hard, but the thing about nervous systems is they wire together and you and your child, your nervous system is wired together.

[00:44:47] Todd Sarner: You and your partner, your nervous system is wired together, and so if they go to town, you're going right along with them. Does that make sense? It makes, makes total sense if, if you're [00:45:00] susceptible to it. So I know it's not solving for that horrible moment where everything's hitting the fan, but I do believe there's truth in what I'm saying is invest in that.

[00:45:12] Todd Sarner: Building up of that parasympathetic tone. Invest in that your nervous system, because a lot of what's going on where you say and do things that you don't like and they get triggered and you get triggered is because either they notice your frazzled already. And that signals as something's not safe to them or they're in a not safe place and they're poking and sending out pings to try to see where you are.

[00:45:40] Todd Sarner: And if you're not ready for it now you both go. Yeah. Did that make enough sense? 

[00:45:45] Brenda Zane: It does. And I, I love, I wrote down, invest in your nervous system because I think sometimes parents and moms in particular when, 'cause you're speaking my language with like taking care of yourself, they are like, I gotta solve this [00:46:00] crisis first.

[00:46:00] Brenda Zane: I will take care of myself later. But if you flip that script a little bit to talk about investing in your nervous system, because as you were talking about like parenting is everything that you do before the crisis, what I envisioned in my brain was like pouring into that cup. So you're like investing, investing, investing for the time when.

[00:46:21] Brenda Zane: Oh, now it's hitting the fan. This is when, this is what I have been preparing for. And if I've been investing in my nervous system, then I'm not losing it. And I am able to say, hold on. We all need a break here. We're gonna come back in 10 minutes. Which sounds so easy to do right now, and we're sitting here talking on a podcast.

[00:46:42] Brenda Zane: But I truly think that it is that investment in your nervous system and just breathing because that is the one thing that you can control. It's gotta be the most underrated parenting tool ever. 

[00:46:57] Todd Sarner: Oh, for sure. I don't know why this comes into [00:47:00] my head, but I remember TA in California, when you get your marriage and family therapy license, you take this long, uh, first test, which is multiple choice and it's hard and you stress out about it, and you go into this really weird environment.

[00:47:14] Todd Sarner: Where you're not even allowed to have a jacket because they're afraid you have notes in your pocket and you can't eat really, and go to the bathroom, but you better be back when it's stressful. And I passed the first one the first time, and then the second one was supposed to be harder. And I was like, oh, I'm not gonna mess this up because I'll have to wait another six months if I mess it up.

[00:47:34] Todd Sarner: So I went to a course, a live course on, uh, passing that second, I think they called it the vignette exam. I, I, but um, I've blocked it out 20 years ago. Um, but the first thing the woman said to us when we sat for this class, I'm expecting drop some knowledge bomb on me about how I'm going to know the knowledge in this te And she goes, just so you guys know, [00:48:00] the number one thing that I can teach you is, this is a little bit about what you know, and this is a little bit about test taking strategy, but this is mostly about your ability to manage your anxiety.

[00:48:11] Todd Sarner: Really, really, really smart people pa fail the test because they're, they're getting all up. And, and again, some of you're just listening, um, not watching, but you're getting up into your chest and your neck and your shoulders and your head and all that tension's up there. And so the first thing she taught us was feel your feet on the ground.

[00:48:32] Todd Sarner: Feel your butt in the chair. I still say these words to clients 20 years later. I probably said it to a client today. Feel your feet in the ground. Feel your butt in the chair. Breathe into your belly, like I said with that exercise, because when you're stressed, you breathe into your chest and that sends a message to your body that things are, are dangerous, something's wrong.

[00:48:53] Todd Sarner: Breathe into your belly, blow it up like a balloon. Long breaths. And she's like, that's the most valuable thing I could [00:49:00] teach you. I'm like, I paid a thousand dollars for this. I need to leave. And I, um, but, but you, I don't know why that anecdote came, right? So. If things are getting a little edgy, going back to the what Dr.

[00:49:12] Todd Sarner: Neufeld called agent of futility, which is the firm clear, concise, consistent energy. And that what he called the angel of comfort, which is the empathy and the um, the, the kindness. Even when things are stressful, if you can just think of those two points, right? Because your brain's gonna struggle to remember that exact perfect thing you heard on that podcast that was just so great that I, I wrote it down and I shared it with my friend.

[00:49:40] Todd Sarner: I can't remember it right now. Sometimes if you just remember firm, but kind, you know, firm but loving, say no if you need to say no, but also show some compassion for the experience, for the what the person's experiencing. And we can talk about that, about limit setting with kids, [00:50:00] but in a way that's boundaries in general.

[00:50:02] Todd Sarner 3: Yeah. 

[00:50:03] Todd Sarner: Like if we are in a love relationship, I need to be able to tell you. What I need, I need to be able to tell you what's happening. That's not great and doesn't make me feel good. I need to be able to tell you those things. Um, but I should pay attention to trying to say them kindly and understanding how it might come across to you that you might think I'm saying, you suck that you're a bad wife.

[00:50:29] Todd Sarner: You're right. Yeah. I, I might, I I have to stay compassionate for that. But I do have to say it because if I don't say it, it'll just continue and the other person doesn't know. But if I just get mad and reactive and yell it at you, you actually didn't know that this was happening with me and I'm just yelling at you.

[00:50:48] Todd Sarner: Right. So staying firm clear, but also compassionate. I think that's the key to most boundary things. Beauty. Yeah, it is. 

[00:50:56] Brenda Zane: Last question. 'cause I know I have to let you go. [00:51:00] I often hear, 

[00:51:01] Todd Sarner: let's go two more hours. Come on. Cancel everything. So we'll just, 

[00:51:04] Brenda Zane: we'll just be one of those guys. Um. That, you know, parents will say all the time, oh, I have no problem communicating my boundary or setting my boundary, but I can't hold it because they feel guilty or they feel mean, or they, or they're scared.

[00:51:22] Brenda Zane: And I just wonder what your thoughts are on why is it so hard as a parent to hold these boundaries? You know, it could be, actually no, you can't use the car because last time you did, you were drunk when you drove it. Or you know, some of these, it's not, these are pretty clear things, right? The parents are setting boundaries around no weed in our house.

[00:51:47] Brenda Zane: No. You know, using of substances in our house or whatever it is. And we have such a hard, like we know what we want, we know what we need to keep ourselves regulated [00:52:00] and feeling safe and all that. But when it comes to then having to. You know, follow through with whatever we said that boundary was. We have a really hard time doing it.

[00:52:12] Todd Sarner: I am, I'm not just trying to be flippant to say we really could do a whole episode on that. Maybe we will, maybe we should. One day. And there's going into specifics about this actual experience versus that one, you know? Um, because there's so many factors and I, I'm kind of allergic to one size fits all, anything because then, right?

[00:52:32] Todd Sarner: Yes. A person tries to do it and it doesn't work because it doesn't fit that, you know. But in general, I'm not trying to call out your hypothetical person saying, I have no problem setting boundaries, but I, I've been a human for a little bit. Um, I just had an anniversary of being human a couple weeks ago.

[00:52:54] Todd Sarner: Might be somewhere higher number these days. Uh, [00:53:00] but, um. I don't know a lot of people that are really executing boundaries really well. And so that's not me calling out your hypothetical person and saying BS or something. I'm just saying I would start with actually looking at, are you actually doing what we're talking about?

[00:53:17] Todd Sarner: Right. Because some people's idea of boundaries is I'm saying no, and I'm saying no, and I'm saying right. And I would say to that person, where was that compassion part? Do you know that you were doing the compassion part? Are you sure you were doing the compassion part? And some people are doing the opposite and going, but honey, I love you.

[00:53:36] Todd Sarner: So that's why, um, I just, I feel like maybe it would be really good if we hold to what we said about like, no weed. You remember we said that? Yeah. That is not firm. That is not clear. That is not consistent. And are you and your partner, if you have a partner, like are you on the same page about that? Are you both sending the same message?

[00:53:55] Todd Sarner: So again, I'm not blowing up the hypothetical, I'm just [00:54:00] saying. I know a, I've met a lot of people in this work. I know a lot of human beings, um, in life, and most of us struggle with this. So I would start off with saying, Hey, work on that part a little bit more. Because if I'm coming across to you as just being mean, that's gonna lift you, that's gonna elevate you.

[00:54:21] Todd Sarner: You're gonna be mad because you don't get it, mom. You don't get what I'm going through right now. You're just being mean. I need that marrow. I used to go through this with teenage boys in the group home that I worked with that were severely emotionally disturbed that we'd find marijuana in their, in their room, and we had to take it away for several reasons, including by law, but that was their medicine.

[00:54:45] Todd Sarner: Right? Right. That to them, that was their medicine. I can't freaking sleep at night. 

[00:54:51] Todd Sarner 3: Right. And 

[00:54:51] Todd Sarner: I've noticed that when I smoke that it helps me go to sleep. So if you just. Come across like a wall of [00:55:00] bricks and you, I just, you are not gonna do that. And that's bad. I don't think you get my experience. Right.

[00:55:05] Todd Sarner: So I would start with that. And then the second part, I think of what you said to me, how do you hold that boundary? Boy? Is that what I do all day long in couples therapy? I work with really successful people. A lot of the times people are doing very well in life that they are running big corporations.

[00:55:24] Todd Sarner: Corporations you've heard of, right? Yeah. But they cannot hold their wife's emotions sometimes. Or maybe sometimes, right. Their wife is upset and they go, why are you upset? I, you know, and holding emotions is hard, um, because all sorts of fears come up. If I really set a boundary with him, and I say he can't have, I had parents, I, I, I started in Marin County, which is a very affluent county, right above mm-hmm.

[00:55:51] Todd Sarner: San Francisco, maybe you know it, or other people do. I had mind-numbing conversations with parents more times than I can count that they let their [00:56:00] 16 year olds have full bars in their room at home. And their attitude was, well, they're gonna do it anyway, so I might as well. I'm like, no, no. And, and one of the parents I was talking to, it's because their kid got in the car and drove down this big hill in Tiburon, which is like, just lined with nice cars and, you know, and, um, they hit one.

[00:56:24] Todd Sarner: So anyway, holding space is hard and most of us have, like, I grew up with a very, um, uh, conflict avoidant personality. We can have a third episode just on my, you know, and my dad being kind of, kind of an angry dude. And so I wanted to be the opposite of angry dude, right? Mm-hmm. And I don't want conflict, right?

[00:56:47] Todd Sarner: That's still in me. I don't want conflict. And if you see the world as peace or conflict. Like conflict and being anti conflict makes sense. Like of course I wouldn't want to be, [00:57:00] but I always talk to people about there's a zone in the middle and that zone is tension. Okay. All growth and all change happens in tension.

[00:57:10] Todd Sarner: Does that make sense the way I'm saying it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:12] Brenda Zane: Yeah, totally. 

[00:57:13] Todd Sarner: And a lot of us are not comfortable with tension because we're too afraid. It's too close to conflict. And a lot of us didn't have great models for holding tension and avoiding conflict growing up. And so again, it's a very big topic, but to me, e you don't get better at that unless a maybe some people out there like I'm trying to do right now, like the work you do, like some so many great thing gabor's work and, but say, hey, having a boundary around your child is helping to keep them safe.

[00:57:52] Todd Sarner: It's helping them to make sense of the world. It's helping them know where the walls are. And when we know where the walls are, we feel more safe. [00:58:00] That's what you're doing. You're not, yeah. You know, you can't be living in fear of, if I say no, they're gonna leave and then I have no, then they're not here.

[00:58:11] Todd Sarner: Your job as a parent is not to make your child happy. Your job as a parent is to take care of them. And people could focus on the first part of that and said, Todd says, don't make kids happy. And that's not exactly what I said. Our job is to be a mama bear. Our job is to be a papa bear. Our job is to make sure they're okay.

[00:58:36] Todd Sarner: And if you are fighting and struggling to hold a boundary, and that's your intention and that's what you know your intention is. Yeah. Then that's love. That's not punishment. That's not conflict. Okay? It's just work on it and get experience with it. If you need practice, go try things [00:59:00] in life that you're not good at right now.

[00:59:01] Todd Sarner: Talk to people that you're not used to. Get outside of your comfort zone a little bit. Play with tension and get more comfortable with it. But remember, I'm trying to love my child and I'm trying to take care of my child, and that can often help with that inner conflict of like, but I'm hurting them or I'm disappointing them, and it is kind of medicine in a way.

[00:59:23] Todd Sarner: Well, if you know it's harming them and it's, it's not good for their life and it's causing them pain, then the most loving thing you can do is be the person who tells them that, you know? Yeah. Did I come close to answering it a little bit? Yes. Your question. Yep. 

[00:59:38] Brenda Zane: I, I really, the, the, that. Analogy or not, I don't know if it's an analogy, but the conflict and peace and that part in between where we grow makes a ton of sense.

[00:59:51] Brenda Zane: And just making sure, I think it's really good as a parent, if you're having that, if you're really struggling to hold a boundary [01:00:00] to remember a, it's not punishment and it is the most loving thing that you can do. And you know, you have to be that person that is gonna keep them safe. And, and I would say the majority of the boundaries that our parents are really struggling with are very real safety issues.

[01:00:18] Brenda Zane: You know, it's, it's very true that we are there to keep them safe. And I know if you kind of flip the, the perspective on it, like, I would want somebody to keep me safe if I was doing things that were really dangerous. For sure. So it makes sense. You know, 

[01:00:35] Todd Sarner: I, I love it when, I just love being in the presence of somebody with really good boundaries.

[01:00:40] Todd Sarner 3: Yes. It's, you know, like 

[01:00:43] Todd Sarner: even if they're saying no to me, like I remember I, again, my brain just jumps around to things. But, um, I remember a pretty well known author that I had a pretty good relationship with. Uh, he was local, he's written some big books. He put me on [01:01:00] his website as somebody for people to call.

[01:01:02] Todd Sarner: Um, we had a nice relationship and I did an interview with him once, um, for my parenting group. And the audio was awful. He had trees being cut down in the background. I asked him again, um, like six months later, and, uh, he's just like, no, no. It's like, what do you mean no? Aren't you supposed to do the nice stuff then you're supposed to?

[01:01:25] Todd Sarner: Right. And he's a Buddhist like teacher, author guy. And again, that's a random example, but I often joke with people too. I'm, I, I don't know if I could live in New York City. My dad's from Long Island, but, and people have made this joke before. It's just awesome when you're there because people will go, Todd, I don't like you.

[01:01:44] Todd Sarner: There's Todd. Remember him? He's a total jerk. You know? Exactly. It's almost relieving like, oh, at least thank you. Just tell me. Yes. 

[01:01:54] Brenda Zane: Yes. When, when you are with somebody like that, it is a relief because you know where you [01:02:00] stand. And it, and it, I think, saved you actually a lot of time and energy from trying to push your own agenda or push an agenda that you know is unhealthy because you're not, you just know you're not gonna get anywhere.

[01:02:12] Brenda Zane: For sure. And when it's done with love, there's a a lot of human 

[01:02:14] Todd Sarner: Yeah. Because a lot of human behaviors, were just constantly operating at this unconscious level about, you know, are you okay? Am I okay? Are we okay? Are we okay? And so when you just have somebody like holding the right boundary, you just, 

[01:02:27] Todd Sarner 3: huh, I'm okay.

[01:02:28] Todd Sarner 3: Yeah. 

[01:02:29] Todd Sarner: You know? Yeah. And again, I'm using kind of funny examples to also talk about something you were bringing up that's a lot more serious. And please don't anybody out there feel like. Um, I hope it doesn't come across as disrespect to a very challenging thing you're, you're dealing with right now. But just given this format and the fact that we're not in the specifics about it, I just, sometimes I just like walking around it and talking about it from a lot of different angles because I just feel like it helps people, it helps it land in people, you know?

[01:02:59] Brenda Zane: It [01:03:00] does. 

[01:03:00] Todd Sarner: So that's the intention, at least. 

[01:03:01] Brenda Zane: Love it. Well, thank you so much. This has been incredibly enlightening. I think we need to now schedule about two more episodes. So we'll continue along with, I thought I was thinking was six. I wrote down six now, but I appreciate Yeah. We'll fully do it again 

[01:03:14] Todd Sarner: sometime.

[01:03:15] Brenda Zane: Yes. Thank you. 

[01:03:17] Todd Sarner: Thank you. 

[01:03:20] Brenda Zane: Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or the show notes and resources from this episode, just go to our website, hope Stream community.org, and click podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related. We even have a start here playlist that we created, so if you're new here, be sure to check that out.

[01:03:40] Brenda Zane: Also, if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance use, we have got a free ebook for you. It's called Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide for Parents of Teens and Young Adults Misusing Drugs and Alcohol. It'll introduce you to ways that you can build connection and relationship with your child [01:04:00] versus distancing and letting them hit rock bottom.

[01:04:04] Brenda Zane: It is a game changer and it's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried to download that. You are amazing, my friend. You are such an elite level parent. It is an honor to be here with you and please know you're not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay sending all my love and light, and I will meet you right back here next week.

[01:04:36] Todd Sarner 4: Our nervous systems are still wired for thousands of years ago. Our attachment systems are still wired for a long time ago. So your child has this thing inside that's telling them, I have to be my own person. I won't survive if I'm not my own person. I have to leave the home soon. Right? And that's in them and they're feeling that.[01:05:00] 

[01:05:00] Todd Sarner 4: And at the same time, and this just messes with 'em at the same time. They kind of need you more than ever because it's super overwhelming. And they need guidance and they need safety, and they need, uh, boundaries and they need protection, and they need all these things at the same time. Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health.

[01:05:31] Todd Sarner 5: I'm Brenda Zane. I've walked this path with my own child's addiction and high risk lifestyle. Each week we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly, find real hope in what might feel helpless. You are not helpless and you're not alone anymore. Find more resources@hopestreamcommunity.org.

[01:05:55] Todd Sarner 5: Hey Todd, thanks so much for hopping on with me. We, I had to like pause [01:06:00] you and hit record 'cause we were covering such good stuff in our pre-conversation. Yeah, yeah. An hour in, we were like, oh, we should hit record just in Oh, right. Yeah, exactly. So that happens sometimes. Um, when I get on with somebody who understands the whole parenting dynamic, which you absolutely do.

[01:06:19] Todd Sarner 5: So welcome to Hope Stream. I'm really glad to have you. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. Yeah. I love talking to people who work with couples in particular. Even if there's, um, you know, like a single mom or a single dad that's has a kiddo who's struggling, there's typically someone else involved, you know, maybe an ex, uh, something like that.

[01:06:42] Todd Sarner 5: Or even other family members that are so well-meaning and always wanna give their input. So there's just all kinds of relationship twists and turns that parents deal with. And I really wanted to talk with you because you do a lot of couples counseling, [01:07:00] couples counseling around parenting. So just give me an idea of kind of what a typical engagement looks like for you or across the spectrum.

[01:07:08] Todd Sarner 5: What are you doing all day long on that? Micros? I know you're talking all day long. Yeah, yeah. Um. Yeah, I love my work. Um, and, uh, most days, but I, I love my work, but I have two, two different hats that I wear. Um, the one, mostly the one in professionally is, uh, parent coaching. So in a way that's my first love.

[01:07:35] Todd Sarner 4: I mean, I wanted to work with kids, um, all through grad school and things. And then partly because of my mentorship that I had with Dr. Gordon Neufeld, um, the developmental psychologist and author, and becoming a dad myself, I really decided, no, I want to help parents. And by that more deeply, I mean, I want to help kids by helping parents.

[01:07:59] Todd Sarner 4: And [01:08:00] so I went really into parent coaching in the Neufeld kind of model. I don't know if you're familiar with his book. Yes. Hold onto Your Kids. I just loved it when my kid was like 1-year-old. I found it and like. This makes so much sense. I love this paradigm of attachment. It connects all the dots of things I learned in grad school, um, because I went through a very expensive, very long education, and then I went to become a parent myself.

[01:08:26] Todd Sarner 4: I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. I was like, wait a minute. I have about 16 theories in my head about what other people say, um, uh, children are supposed to do. But I, I'm like, I don't know what. So, um, finding Neufeld book when my son was very young, um, really got me on a path and I just decided I, I want to help kids by helping the parents.

[01:08:51] Todd Sarner 4: That I believe parents are the answer for their children, not the experts. And that the experts are [01:09:00] mostly supposed to be in the background helping support, uh, the parents. Obviously there's exceptions, so don't hear me differently. But then somewhere along the way, um. A few years into it, people kept telling me about this woman, Sue Johnson.

[01:09:17] Todd Sarner 4: And uh, I remember somebody on an airplane saw me reading an attachment something book and they said, oh, attachment. Well, so you must know Sue Johnson. I'm like, well, I've heard of Sue Johnson and her, um, emotionally focused therapy for couples, but I'm not really a couple's guy. I help parents with their kids.

[01:09:36] Todd Sarner 4: And, um, the more I kept hearing her name and I told her this when I, when I first met her, um, I was like, okay, fine. And I, I looked into, I'm like, yes, this is part of the mission too, obviously, like how we are relating as parents and how we're holding a container and how we are doing. Um, and our relationship obviously matters to the child as well.

[01:09:59] Todd Sarner 4: [01:10:00] And so I trained with Sue, um, and one of her students, uh, Rebecca Jorgensen for about a year. Then I found may be relevant to our. Her conversation, the work of Dr. Stan Tatkin and I got into one of, um, his first couples training groups and, um, like Gordon Neufeld and like Sue Johnson, um, Stan's main focus was attachment.

[01:10:28] Todd Sarner 4: And I don't know how much you guys have talked about attachment here. We can go into it more a little bit, not too much, but it was about attachment science and, uh, the importance of attachment science. It would make sense to, to at least mention that in a minute. Um, but Stan also brought in regulation and the nervous system and how we trigger each other, how we can even make a look on our face sometimes or use a tone that can get our partner worked up, or our children, or our children can do to us.

[01:10:56] Todd Sarner 4: And that's a whole nother thing separate from [01:11:00] the, the psychological emotional system. There is a nervous system that's actually involved in these things. So that's a very long answer. To your question, but what do I do in a day? I'm, I am usually moving between talking to parents about parenting and how to get on the same page about, um, their children's attachment needs and creating the right environment in the home and responding to behaviors in a way that are relationship friendly and effective.

[01:11:29] Todd Sarner 4: But then the other part of the day is talking to those same parents, but about their relationship and how they're relating to each other, and lots of good words that I know you and I are gonna want to talk about, about boundaries, um, with each other and with the kids and what healthy boundaries look like and how we, I always say it in this way, how we communicate from those boundaries, right?

[01:11:53] Todd Sarner 4: Yeah. And how, what effective communication looks like. Am I pointing a finger or [01:12:00] casting aspersions or judging or saying your motivation, or am I being a little bit more vulnerable and being open to how I feel? Again, you have to be careful with what you ask me. It's a long, long answer, but that's what I do.

[01:12:14] Todd Sarner 4: I'm either working with parents over here or working with parents over here and sometimes they cross over. Yes, I could imagine. Can imagine. Yeah. Occasionally I'll have a, um, an individual client that I did one of the first works with and they say, Hey, I need some more work on my stuff really. And my childhood of origin stuff that's help not, it's kind of getting in the way of me showing up the way that we talked about.

[01:12:38] Todd Sarner 4: Yeah. There or there, right? Yeah. Do we have any time left? Um, well, we can do, we do. But that was incredibly helpful. And I'm curious about when you start working with a couple, are they at the point usually where they're like, Hmm, we, we, you know, they're recognizing that they're playing a [01:13:00] part, maybe in the family dynamic that isn't so.

[01:13:03] Todd Sarner 5: Good. Or are you having to break? You mean like affecting the kids? Yeah. Or are you like breaking the news to them to say, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but this kid over here that you have who's struggling and you know, maybe it's substance use, maybe it's just behavioral or whatever. What, what is that conversation like?

[01:13:22] Todd Sarner 5: Because I think there's sometimes, and I know I was caught off guard with this when my son started struggling, I was like, oh, wait a minute. It's like, I have a role in this. You know, I just really truly wasn't aware, right? I wasn't, I wasn't like that from this, like, I'm this high, mighty person. It just never even occurred to me that I was really severely impacting that dynamic with my son.

[01:13:47] Todd Sarner 5: So, I dunno if I asked a very clear question. Yeah. It's a, it's a no no. I, I, I think I get it and let's just keep figuring it out together and make sure we're lining up. But, um, I, [01:14:00] I would say to answer the. First, you know, kinda iteration of what you're saying. Um, I, I, I think there's usually one partner that when they come to me as a couple that is, um, maybe the canary in the coal mine.

[01:14:18] Todd Sarner 4: Um, in a way, in the family system, that's the one saying we are doing something here, we are doing something that's not good and it's not good for us, but it's also not good for our kids. Um, yeah, that's kind of common if that's what you're asking there originally. Um, the thing I always wanna be careful about and not overly careful about, but the thing I wanna be careful about and insensitive to is, um, shaming parents or judging parents.

[01:14:49] Todd Sarner 4: You'll usually hear me talking about positive responsibility, which I am familiar with your work. I've listened to you. I know that's what you advocate for. It doesn't help [01:15:00] anybody. Uh, to shame anybody or judge and goodness knows, um, parents get enough of that, um, uh, from relatives, from culture, um, including if you have a, a child that's struggling with something like a behavior problem or an addiction, there can be all sorts of real or perceived, uh, judgment that happens there.

[01:15:23] Todd Sarner 4: So that's just my long way of saying, um, do we have a role in, um, what's going on with our kids? Well, yeah, obviously we do, but that doesn't mean blame, that doesn't mean on purpose. That doesn't, you know. Yeah. Um, there's obviously we can go over cases and we could go, uh, that was, that was really not, really not healthy.

[01:15:46] Todd Sarner 4: Yeah. Um, that behavior you're engaged with. But I also kind of wanna enter into the discussion as well. Something I know, you know, also is sometimes, um, what we're also dealing with is [01:16:00] just. Um, the situation around your child, which may not always have everything to do with you and their own personal sensitivity, their own, um, right, because when we talk about kids that are struggling with behaviors, including kids that are struggling with addiction, you know, better than anyone.

[01:16:22] Todd Sarner 4: Like, we're almost always dealing with a sensitive kid, you know? Oh, and that's not always obvious because of the way that they present, right? Yes. Because sometimes they don't present really sensitive. We can talk about attachment, we can talk about defensive detachment, that might be useful, but, but I just wanna also just kind of enter into the conversation about our impact on our kids.

[01:16:45] Todd Sarner 4: There's also the environment, um, that you're in, and there's also their own sensitivity and disposition. And that plays such a big part because, like I said, I have found in my experience, although I don't. [01:17:00] Um, address addiction specifically in my practice. Uh, it does come up a lot in my practice and I have done trainings, um, in ef uh, um, EMDR in addiction.

[01:17:14] Todd Sarner 4: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, uh, different things, um, in the past. But, um, yeah, the sensitivity of the child is almost always present. Like it, when people come to me about anything, including a behavior problem or our kid is starting to experiment here, we're kind of worried about it. Um, it's always clear in the first conversation they have three kids and that's their sensitive one.

[01:17:35] Todd Sarner 5: Right. It's so interesting. It's, you know, I talk a lot about sort of this template that I've just seen over the years, and I'm not a therapist. I just, I observe and I see this pattern of the sensitivity and, um, I had the great fortune of having Dr. Gaba mate on the podcast and he talked about. That, you know, like if you've got a [01:18:00] sunburn and it's raw and there's something scratching at it all the time, that's kind of what we think of as our, our sensitive kids.

[01:18:07] Todd Sarner 5: But you're so right that they don't always present that way externally. And I know my son definitely didn't, at least he didn't, to the point that I recognized it when he was younger. I recognized a lot of sensitivity to like tactical sensitivity, noise, tastes, smells, things like that. But I did not understand the emotional sensitivity.

[01:18:31] Todd Sarner 5: Yeah. But you're saying that's pretty common. Yeah. And I, I love Gabor's work. Um, I don't know the audience knows, but he co-wrote my mentor's book, um, hold Onto Your Kids. Um, because, and he's public about this. He was a client of Dr. Neufeld and went to him. About his kids and was like, make a book. Make a book.

[01:18:55] Todd Sarner 4: And Dr. Nvo, I don't wanna make a book. I don't have the, I don't wanna do it. And Gabor's [01:19:00] like, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. You know, with his kinda a DHD kinda, you know, thing. I've had some wonderful conversations with him and I, I actually am so appreciating where he is now in his life and his career because it just feels like everything's coming together for him.

[01:19:16] Todd Sarner 4: And I've really appreciated his work on addiction, like a realm of the Hungry ghosts and, and Johan Hari as well. I really, really like the stuff that he talks about with attachment and, um, and addiction. Is it okay if, like in case some of your or, um, audience is not familiar with what I'm talking about when I talk about attachment is okay to do a little bit of a a hundred percent.

[01:19:41] Todd Sarner 4: Yeah. So when we talk about attachment. Um, there's all sorts of messages out there, including on blogs and things about attachment parenting or attachment, this and that, and a lot of it's really positive. And then a lot of it is this straw man argument thing out there that, um, [01:20:00] the attachment parent I know, um, is a helicopter parent and never lets their kid out of their sight.

[01:20:06] Todd Sarner 4: And so I don't like that thing. And it's like, that's not actually what attachment science is. Attachment science is not that controversial, but it just feels like it would be a couple terms really quick. Might be helpful for our conversation. Yes, definitely. Um, attachment science is really, I'll use Dr.

[01:20:24] Todd Sarner 4: Neufeld definition. He says attachment is the instinct that we are all born with to hold close and to keep close to those that we hold most dear. And if you know anything about Dr. Neufeld is a very loaded explanation. There's a lot in there. It's the instinct that we're born with to hold close and to keep close to those that we hold most dear.

[01:20:51] Todd Sarner 4: When he elaborates, he says at first, that's what people think of as typical baby bonding behaviors. Keep that baby [01:21:00] close, hold them a lot. Um, maybe sleep with them. If, if, if that works out in your family sometimes. Um, um, but there's no rule in attachment science that says you have to do that If you're able to Nurse.

[01:21:11] Todd Sarner 4: Nurse, great. Um, because that body to body contact and the holding, and that's very womb like security. But I also just saw a picture of me and my son when he was a baby and he's, I'm bare chested and he's on my chest and I'm holding him. And that's a similar, he just turned 22 and I'm gonna cry if you right.

[01:21:32] Todd Sarner 4: Make me. Um, but, um, that, that, that's attachment. Attachment is. At first, it's baby bonding, but over time it's meant to also become a, a, a psychological in the head and a, an emotional in the heart connection that I know you're there. Yeah, I know you're there. That I'm, if I'm scared, I'm lonely, I'm tired, I'm [01:22:00] overwhelmed.

[01:22:00] Todd Sarner 4: I'm feeling not enough. I'm feeling too much that I can ping you. And I, I don't like using that word, but I can do something, a bid for connection like John Gottman says, um, or a, or a signal and you'll, you'll hear my signal and you'll respond to it as best you can. You know, and that over time, that helps build a foundation of security.

[01:22:24] Todd Sarner 4: Now, before I say the corresponding term of defensive detachment, let me say what maybe some of your listeners are thinking right now, because I've done this a while, that a couple thousand clients I know where. Parents go sometimes when they hear that, including if we're talking about addiction, right? Oh, Todd just said, I messed up because I remember that time that they, uh, bid for connection and I missed it.

[01:22:57] Todd Sarner 4: That's not what Todd just said, and I don't believe [01:23:00] I'm talking about myself in the third place. Um, it works. Thank you. Um, that's a long haul. It's thousands of reps over time, it does not require perfection. In fact, a lot of the attachment science research shows that the most secure parent child dyads, there's something like 40, 50, 60% of the time you miss 'em.

[01:23:25] Todd Sarner 6: Hmm. Okay. Like I, I, I'm chronic, I wanna say, um, I forget the, the stat right now, but. I think it's something like 50, 60% of the time you might not miss it because if, if they're sitting there and judging in a lab, it's your kid smiles at you, but you had accidentally your attention got called to your other kid and you missed that smile and your kid got, they would go, you missed it.

[01:23:50] Todd Sarner 4: Right? Right. But the point I'm trying to make is attachment science is not controversial in the psychological world. [01:24:00] It's, it's saying, look, there are a lot of things going on around your child and their sensitivity matters, but their secure attachment to you growing up is the number one factor in how they learn to have relationships, how they feel good about themselves and how they behave day to day.

[01:24:22] Todd Sarner 4: And that most of us don't do a perfect job, but our goal is to try to get that child to as secure of a place as possible, you know? Again, in this context, if you have a super, super, super sensitive child, it's really a lot harder to fill that cup. Yeah. And that's not all on you. It's sometimes I use, am I going on a little?

[01:24:48] Todd Sarner 4: No, it's perfect. Too much about this topic. No, this is great. Like, I sometimes if I had a, a glass on my desk, which for some reason I don't, I'll hold up a glass and I know some of you're listening and I'll say, um, [01:25:00] you know, think of your child's secure base as being like a glass. And when your child is feeling, like, think of them when they're four years old and you're just loving them and you're just got all this energy for 'em and it things are locked in and they just feel super loved.

[01:25:16] Todd Sarner 4: That kid doesn't clinging, that kid doesn't, mommy, mommy, mommy. That kid goes off and they play and they explore because they feel really full. The tether gets longer. Does that make sense? Yeah. The tether, because they kind of know you're there. Yeah. But when they're low in their cup, they're gonna poke and prod and push over their little sister and do all these things.

[01:25:43] Todd Sarner 4: And one of the things to understand as a parent is when your kids are born, they're completely insecure and it's very hard to keep that cup filled. Very hard to keep that cup filled. They don't even know you're gonna, they don't even know you exist when you're in the other room. Right. Okay. At [01:26:00] first, object permanence, they don't know that Ma, oh, mommy comes back, you know, mommy left.

[01:26:06] Todd Sarner 4: Ah, mommy comes back. And over time they go, oh, mommy usually comes back. That's how insecure they start off with. Right? So attachment is saying, Hey, over time we're just working in that direction, including wherever you might be there in the audience with your child. Right now, you're just still working. In that direction.

[01:26:26] Todd Sarner 4: And so anything I give you in terms of guidance would be about how do you just keep going in that direction. But the other thing, if it's okay, I just wanna mention really quick, is there's a corresponding instinct that comes right along with the instinct to attach. And that's the instinct to detach. And what that, what the way Dr.

[01:26:49] Todd Sarner 4: Neufeld describes it is, my instinct I'm born with is if I love you, I wanna be with you. I wanna be connected to you. I, I want to do good [01:27:00] by you. If, if you and I are best friends and we've known each other forever and we're tight, do you have to leverage me? Do you have to like, go, Todd, you have to do this or this?

[01:27:11] Todd Sarner 4: No, you go, Todd, hey, I really need help. And I go, of course I will be right there. Right, right. It's just my instinct. But when that instinct to be close to someone. And my sensitivity plays a big part in this leads to me getting hurt or frustrated because I can't quite hold on to you the way I want to, which does have partly to do with you and the environment we create.

[01:27:36] Todd Sarner 4: But it also has to do with me, well then what happens in the most sensitive kids, but all kids, all people married people with their spouse. If I'm getting too frustrated trying to be close to you, my brain is gonna go, Uhuh. Stop. Stop doing that. Stop trying, and then you get that. I don't care. Whatever. The [01:28:00] truth is, not, they don't care.

[01:28:02] Todd Sarner 4: That's not the truth. The truth is because I care so much, I have to pretend right now that I don't because it hurts too bad not to pretend. And we could unpack that for hours, right? Yes. It feels like that's that. They go into a protective mode of, okay, this isn't feeling good, or I'm not getting what I need.

[01:28:26] Todd Sarner 5: This doesn't feel safe. I'm going to throw up a, especially, I'm thinking of teenagers, I'm gonna throw up this stance of tough guy, you know, f you, I don't care. Which we see so much of, and it's so confusing as a parent because you're like, but wait, this is my sweet kid, my boy, my daughter, whatever. And I'm get, and I'm seeing this behavior and I'm hearing these words that are so hurtful and you know, we, we constantly are hearing you are the worst mom [01:29:00] in the world, or you're the worst dad, and you know, how could you do this to me?

[01:29:04] Todd Sarner 5: Or all these different things. And it is just mind numbing when you're sitting there thinking like, what did I do to deserve this? Right. Where did I go so wrong that my 17-year-old is swearing at me? And, you know, it's, it's so, so confusing and so hurtful. Yeah. So could you wanna unpack that for a minute?

[01:29:31] Todd Sarner 4: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, okay, so first maybe what we try to do as, as best we can is have compassion to start, right? We were all teenagers and boy, it was not easy. Um, you know, Daniel Siegel, who I did some training with, I think he, he called his book about teenagers, uh, brainstorm or mindstorm or something to explain like, yes.

[01:29:57] Todd Sarner 4: Brain. I think it's brainstorm. Yeah. Yeah. [01:30:00] Um, oh man, there's a lot going on there, right? But let's just break it down to a couple dynamics, like, uh, uh, to do with what you said, one of the most important things to understand what's going on, about what's going on with your teenager is they have this deep, deep.

[01:30:16] Todd Sarner 4: Biological evolutionary drive towards an individuation. Okay. And you know, we're sitting here talking in North America, um, and, you know, most of us even that are just struggling to get by a little better or whatever, probably have it better than a lot of places in the world. Um, but it wasn't that long ago that when you're 13, that meant you're getting married now and you're taking over the family business.

[01:30:47] Todd Sarner 4: That wasn't that long ago. And it still exists in the world. Okay. Yeah. Um, evolution doesn't move that fast. Our nervous systems are still wired for thousands of years [01:31:00] ago. Our attachment systems are still wired for a long time ago. So your child has this thing inside that's telling them I have to be my own person.

[01:31:11] Todd Sarner 4: I won't survive if I'm not my own person. I have to leave the home soon. Right. And that's in them and they're feeling that. And at the same time, and this just messes with 'em at the same time, they kind of need you more than ever because it's super overwhelming and they need guidance and they need safety and they need, uh, boundaries and they need protection, and they need all these things at the same time.

[01:31:42] Todd Sarner 4: And depending on what time of the day it's happening. Yes. Right. Or how hungry they are. Right. Your teenager will be a little pain in the, but in the morning or something, be sometimes because they're gearing up to go to school and they're kind of [01:32:00] stealing up to go deal with the slings and arrows of adolescent interaction in a way.

[01:32:05] Todd Sarner 4: And then that same teenager will come to you at 10 o'clock at night when you're just trying to go to bed because you're exhausted. Mom, can I tell you about something that happened today? Yes. What in the actual, right. Right. And then sometimes we make a big mistake. And please believe me, I have compassion for that moment because I know that moment.

[01:32:28] Todd Sarner 4: But you go, honey, mommy's so exhausted. Is it okay if we talk about it tomorrow and they say yes? And then what happens? We forget what happens when you bring it up tomorrow. Well, they're either we forget or they're crazy and they're angry and they are like, but you know, no, it's like that wall goes back up.

[01:32:45] Todd Sarner 4: That's right. Because before bed, the wall's going down. Mm-hmm. And that wall has partially to do with you because what if they were being a little pain in the butt earlier and you got mad at them and you like, like, God, why are you being so ungrateful? [01:33:00] You don't have a bad life. Do you know what a bad life?

[01:33:02] Todd Sarner 4: Do you know what I did when I was, you know? Yes. Right? Yes. Does that make the wall come down, or does that make the wall? Right now it's, oh, mom doesn't understand. Mom doesn't get it right. Dad doesn't get it, and then they kind of want the wall to go down so they can go to sleep. And when the wall goes down they're like, oh, I want to go talk to mom.

[01:33:23] Todd Sarner 4: So that's your opportunity, right? So the first thing I think when you explain that scenario that so many of my clients, so many of your clients maybe me, have gone through, um, that's what I think of is please understand the chemical storm and the evolutionary storm that they're going through. And maybe if we start with compassion, that's the best place we can start.

[01:33:47] Todd Sarner 4: But also there's a adaptive process. And the adaptive process is, I have a bunch of frustration inside. Some of it probably has to do with you parent, and some of [01:34:00] it might be for good reasons. You told me no for a good reason, but that still frustrates me. Other times you made a mistake and that pisses me off and frustrates me and I'm a teenager, so justice is the most important thing.

[01:34:12] Todd Sarner 4: Um, in a lot of ways. Hey, I wanna pause for just a sec to talk about something that has been life-changing for so many women who started right where you might be by listening to the show. If you're feeling the isolation, the exhaustion, like nobody gets what you're going through. There is a place designed specifically for you.

[01:34:34] Todd Sarner 5: The stream is our private community for moms and female caregivers. Her parenting teens and young adults through substance use and mental health struggles. And when I say private, I mean completely confidential. It is not connected to Facebook or any other platform, or your business could become everyone's business.

[01:34:53] Todd Sarner 5: What members love about this stream is that you can be as visible or as anonymous as you want. Some moms jump [01:35:00] right into conversations and calls. Others like to read and learn quietly in the background. Both are perfect. It's not social media. It's genuine community focused on learning growth and breaking through the isolation that might be keeping you from moving forward.

[01:35:15] Todd Sarner 5: Right now. Whether your child is in active use in treatment or early recovery, you'll find practical strategies and tools that actually help motivate healthier choices because we know you wanna see positive change in your family. Check it out@hopedreamcommunity.org. We would love to welcome you into this village of support and understanding.

[01:35:38] Todd Sarner 5: Okay. Back to the show. And I have to be able to feel those feelings and I need to be able to process them, and I need to be able to release them. Like the stages of grief, you know? And a lot of times that involves me crying, that involves me feeling my feelings, me struggling with them, but me finally just giving up, [01:36:00] struggling with them and just going, that happened, right?

[01:36:02] Todd Sarner 4: And what happens when we do that in life? We cry. We have a big blubbery, gross, letting it all out. Cry. Not trying to change. My mom's mind cry, but I'm actually releasing it. And then what happens? I feel better. I feel relieved a lot of times. I have a good idea right there. Right. So the reason I'm bringing this all up to you, and it has to do with just teenagers, like you said, but it also to me has to do with maybe the situation.

[01:36:29] Todd Sarner 4: A lot of your. Listeners find themselves in, um, uh, with a child that might be struggling with addiction or, or something else, um, is they need us to be a reliable, safe person to help them go through that process. And if we're fighting with them or whatever, I'm not sending that signal that I'm safe to, to talk to.

[01:36:55] Todd Sarner 4: You know, I, I use the example all the time. Brenda's, um, goodwill hunting. Mm-hmm. [01:37:00] Um, you know, that's kind of an example of an angry young man that had a lot going on. We find out later that he was abused as a child. He's court ordered to go see Robin Williams and Robin Williams cares for him. I won't say loves him at first, but cares for him and, um, builds a bond with him.

[01:37:21] Todd Sarner 4: But he also sets limits with him, right? He doesn't let him get away with being a little jerk. He didn't let him get away with talking badly about his dead wife or, or calling out his experience or trying to, um, you know, IM impose himself over Robin Williams with his mighty intellect. Robin Williams sets boundaries with him, right?

[01:37:43] Todd Sarner 4: And says, this isn't okay. But by the end of the movie, he confronts him with his abuse with the, the famous scene. It's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. And because of the bond, because he set limits in the right way [01:38:00] because he's gained his care and respect, Matt Damon is able to cry and he's able to finally feel all the built up stuff from his childhood that he'd been bearing inside and it resulted in violence and him hitting people who would just talk back to him or something and was getting, and by the end of that movie, you knew he was gonna be okay.

[01:38:25] Todd Sarner 4: You knew he's gonna be okay now because somebody guided him through that experience going off on tangents again, Brenda, but does it make sense? It does. It does. And I, I think what can be really hard, uh, I'll speak for myself is to, yeah, when, when your child is in that mode of being angry or blaming or you know, they're not happy with the boundary that you set, I think we often take it so personally [01:39:00] versus what I'm hearing, like we've kind of feel like a punching bag.

[01:39:04] Todd Sarner 5: And I think what I'm hearing you say is, yeah, for a bit while they're going through the storm of crazy, like maybe may, maybe, maybe not. I, I think I thank you for following up that way because I think I probably left something hanging a little bit. My point is more that I, I wouldn't ask anybody to take abuse.

[01:39:28] Todd Sarner 4: I wouldn't ask anybody to take any behavior that is crossing a line, um, that feels harmful. That's not what I'm saying. I was starting off with have compassion. Yes. I was starting off with trying to explain some things that might help you not take it personally as much. Right. That's, that's my therapist instinct is to go there, Hey, this is what's going on.

[01:39:55] Todd Sarner 4: You don't have to like it, you don't have to accept it. You can [01:40:00] say, no, you can't do that like Robin Williams did, but at least don't Robin Williams. The movie could have been 20 minutes long if Robin Williams said, I'm not taking this from you. You little punk, get outta here. Right, right. Movie over. Right, right.

[01:40:13] Todd Sarner 4: Goodwill Hunting too. He is still mad and, but no, I don't think anybody has to take any abusive behavior. I think I, I always think of it as a holistic thing. One, let's understand the whole environment. Let's really focus on attachment when we can. Let's, let's focus on being a safe container as much as we can and do our own work.

[01:40:36] Todd Sarner 4: But let's understand that setting boundaries with your child is not punishment, and it doesn't have to be harsh, and it doesn't have to cause problems. If you're doing boundaries the right way, and sometimes all interchange limits and boundaries, you're being firm, you're being clear. You're being consistent.

[01:40:56] Todd Sarner 4: You don't have to use a million words. You don't have to do a TED [01:41:00] talk or read them the right act. You can be clear that's not okay. That's not what we do. But you also balance that out as, as Neufeld originally trained me with compassion and empathy. I know you're having a hard time. I, I know you're feeling rip.

[01:41:18] Todd Sarner 4: I know you're really mad at me right now. I get it. I'm not perfect. And I absolutely understand why you might be mad at me because part of this is I made a mistake and part of it's, I'm telling you things you don't want to hear. Yeah. But that doesn't excuse talking to me that way. I strive not to speak to you that way.

[01:41:37] Todd Sarner 4: And I expect that from you because I love you and I am good to you. And I'm not making you feel guilty. I'm just saying that's just not what we do. That's not our culture. That's not how we handle things. But you made a mistake. Yeah, you're right. I did. I'm just saying I strive to talk to you with respect and I try to always remember no matter how mad I am at you, that I [01:42:00] love you.

[01:42:01] Todd Sarner 4: And sometimes I probably forget. Yeah. But it's not okay to talk to me that way. But I, but I care about what you're going through right now. So I'd like to get past this part of it and get to what you're actually going through right now. And if that's right now, or if that's in 10 minutes, you wanna cool off for a minute, that's cool.

[01:42:20] Todd Sarner 4: I will be here. And no matter we call it bridging, but no matter what happens, nothing is gonna change that. I love you. And no matter what you say to me, I was thinking of the Cure song Now Love song, but no matter what you say to me, I'm gonna love you. Yeah. Right. And it's like holding that, right? It's holding that container.

[01:42:45] Todd Sarner 4: That's hard. That is hard. I'm not telling you or anyone else here that that's easy. I'm not telling you I execute perfectly on that at all. And I have a lot of experience. I talk to people about this every single day for the last couple decades. [01:43:00] Right? Right. And still I'm imperfect and I don't do it right sometimes.

[01:43:03] Todd Sarner 4: And sometimes I'm go, oh my God, what did I just do? I can't even face my clients tomorrow because I just lost my mind. But I strive to keep moving towards that, you know? Yes. I strive to keep getting better at it, and if something really comes up, I go, okay, I need to look at that. But that's not my kid's problem.

[01:43:20] Todd Sarner 4: I need to go over here and, and deal with that, you know? Yes. I think that what you just said there is really important because I think it takes a certain amount of lowering of our ego to say to our kids, I don't have all the answers. I don't know, I, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I've never had a kid addicted to Fentanyl before, so I'm figuring it out as we go, but I, for real, but nothing you could do would make me stop loving you.

[01:43:47] Todd Sarner 5: I kind of wanna like, absolutely. I'm sure people are gonna rewind that and go back to your words, because sometimes it's just finding the right words to say, like, we feel it in our bones. Like, I love this kid so much, even [01:44:00] though they're making me crazy right now. That we have a hard time getting the words out.

[01:44:05] Todd Sarner 5: So I really love the language that you used there, because it felt strong and it felt, uh, you know, I'll use the word boundaried, which I don't even know if that's a word, but it felt like I knew you were serious. The word. You're, you know, you're serious. But it, it came across as very loving and compassionate.

[01:44:25] Todd Sarner 5: Yeah. And it's, I think it's hard to find that balance in words, especially when emotions are heightened and parents are scared. And maybe we can touch on that a little bit, is when we are operating from that place of fear. 'cause our kids are doing really scary things and we're legitimately scared for their life.

[01:44:47] Todd Sarner 5: It takes, it takes so much to be able to have a controlled, measured, calm, confident conversation, right. With somebody. Oh, for sure. For sure. That's why, again, [01:45:00] the struggle for me is, most of my message is most of parenting is what you do that's proactive. That's before the problem, you know, and that's not some.

[01:45:14] Todd Sarner 4: Yeah. So therefore you messed up. It's like that's a constant thing, right? Mm-hmm. But that parenting is not supposed to be what you do to your kid. When they do something to make 'em stop doing that thing, that's a constant whack-a-mole game, you know? Um, parenting is mostly about, like, for instance, what are you doing parent to take care of you right now?

[01:45:35] Todd Sarner 4: Because especially when things are hard, it's like, but I have, I have to take care and I have to, and I have to, and I have to. Okay, I get that. That's real. But are you on Facebook? Are you on socials? Are you watching a lot? Are you the, is there some place where you can do a meditation practice in the morning?

[01:45:52] Todd Sarner 4: You can go walk in nature, you can go to a support group. You can do something that is helping you. Because when it comes [01:46:00] to those moments, by the time am I allowed to curse by the time stuff, by the time stuff is hitting the fan, and you all know what I mean? By the time stuff is hitting the fan, it's almost too late to to, to, um, be in our right mind.

[01:46:17] Todd Sarner 4: You know, it, it's, it's, um, by the time the stuff's hitting the fan, I was, I was laugh at that, um, that show Seinfeld, and I'll use this with my clients a lot. Like, um, they had the episode where George's father had a mantra, and his mantra was when he was really stressed out and he was stressed out. Jerry Stiller, I think the actor, um, he would get all red like steams coming out of his ears.

[01:46:40] Todd Sarner 4: He would get, you know, but this episode, he and Kramer were both doing the Serenity now. Serenity now, you know, and the joke was, you're not serene, dude. That's not happening right now. And if we just, we can do, let's do another episode sometime and we'll just talk about [01:47:00] the nervous system. Maybe we can touch on it a little.

[01:47:02] Todd Sarner 4: But just a thing about the nervous system is you have that sympathetic branch, which, which is your fight or flight branch. That's like the accelerator on your car and you have the parasympathetic branch, that's your rest and digest your calm, the thing you feel like you've done yoga for an hour. Just your feelings zen right now.

[01:47:23] Todd Sarner 4: That's your parasympathetic. One of the most important practical things to understand about your nervous system is by the time you're flipping your lid, you have no parasympathetic right now. You're in your amygdala, you're in your brainstem. You can't find that thing that Todd and you know, Brent talked about on the podcast that day, because that's not where blood is going in your brain right now.

[01:47:47] Todd Sarner 4: Okay? So you, you don't have access to that file. So part, uh, I, what you're saying is so big and there's so many aspects that we could talk about and, but one of the thing is invest [01:48:00] in your nervous system. Invest in that parasympathetic tone because it's bankable. You can build it up. Okay? Um. 4, 7, 8.

[01:48:09] Todd Sarner 4: Breathing is one of my favorite things to do. Breathe in deeply through your nose, into your belly, not into your chest. So the count of four, hold it about seven counts. Release through your mouth. Uh, long, slow breath. Eight. I just taught you something that's more valuable than yes, half the things out there.

[01:48:28] Todd Sarner 4: But I can't write a book about it because I just taught you in 10 seconds. Right. You know, you'd have to have a long filler content there. I know. So let me go back to what I said on page one again, and let me give you another anecdote. Um, Dr. Andrew, we has a very good, like five or six minute video on YouTube about what I just said, but, um, doing those things that charge up your nervous system proactively is one of the most practical, useful things you can [01:49:00] do.

[01:49:00] Todd Sarner 4: Because if you go in with a frazzled nervous system into that interaction with your child. Versus you've been kind of working on your bait and your, your ground and your nervous system being calm. It still might be hard, but the thing about nervous systems is they wire together and you and your child, your nervous system is wired together.

[01:49:24] Todd Sarner 4: You and your partner, your nervous system is wired together, and so if they go to town, you're going right along with them. Does that make sense? It makes, makes total sense if, if you're susceptible to it. So I know it's not solving for that horrible moment where everything's hitting the fan, but I do believe there's truth in what I'm saying is invest in that.

[01:49:49] Todd Sarner 4: Building up of that parasympathetic tone. Invest in that your nervous system, because a lot of what's going on where you say and do things that you don't like and they get [01:50:00] triggered and you get triggered is because either they notice your frazzled already. And that signals as something's not safe to them or they're in a not safe place and they're poking and sending out pings to try to see where you are.

[01:50:16] Todd Sarner 4: And if you're not ready for it now you both go. Yeah. Did that make enough sense? It does. And I, I love, I wrote down, invest in your nervous system because I think sometimes parents and moms in particular when, 'cause you're speaking my language with like taking care of yourself, they are like, I gotta solve this crisis first.

[01:50:37] Todd Sarner 5: I will take care of myself later. But if you flip that script a little bit to talk about investing in your nervous system, because as you were talking about like parenting is everything that you do before the crisis, what I envisioned in my brain was like pouring into that cup. So you're like investing, investing, investing for the time when.

[01:50:58] Todd Sarner 5: Oh, now it's hitting the [01:51:00] fan. This is when, this is what I have been preparing for. And if I've been investing in my nervous system, then I'm not losing it. And I am able to say, hold on. We all need a break here. We're gonna come back in 10 minutes. Which sounds so easy to do right now, and we're sitting here talking on a podcast.

[01:51:19] Todd Sarner 5: But I truly think that it is that investment in your nervous system and just breathing because that is the one thing that you can control. It's gotta be the most underrated parenting tool ever. Oh, for sure. I don't know why this comes into my head, but I remember TA in California, when you get your marriage and family therapy license, you take this long, uh, first test, which is multiple choice and it's hard and you stress out about it, and you go into this really weird environment.

[01:51:51] Todd Sarner 4: Where you're not even allowed to have a jacket because they're afraid you have notes in your pocket and you can't eat really, and go to the bathroom, but you better be back when it's [01:52:00] stressful. And I passed the first one the first time, and then the second one was supposed to be harder. And I was like, oh, I'm not gonna mess this up because I'll have to wait another six months if I mess it up.

[01:52:11] Todd Sarner 4: So I went to a course, a live course on, uh, passing that second, I think they called it the vignette exam. I, I, but um, I've blocked it out 20 years ago. Um, but the first thing the woman said to us when we sat for this class, I'm expecting drop some knowledge bomb on me about how I'm going to know the knowledge in this te And she goes, just so you guys know, the number one thing that I can teach you is, this is a little bit about what you know, and this is a little bit about test taking strategy, but this is mostly about your ability to manage your anxiety.

[01:52:48] Todd Sarner 4: Really, really, really smart people pa fail the test because they're, they're getting all up. And, and again, some of you're just listening, um, not watching, but [01:53:00] you're getting up into your chest and your neck and your shoulders and your head and all that tension's up there. And so the first thing she taught us was feel your feet on the ground.

[01:53:09] Todd Sarner 4: Feel your butt in the chair. I still say these words to clients 20 years later. I probably said it to a client today. Feel your feet in the ground. Feel your butt in the chair. Breathe into your belly, like I said with that exercise, because when you're stressed, you breathe into your chest and that sends a message to your body that things are, are dangerous, something's wrong.

[01:53:30] Todd Sarner 4: Breathe into your belly, blow it up like a balloon. Long breaths. And she's like, that's the most valuable thing I could teach you. I'm like, I paid a thousand dollars for this. I need to leave. And I, um, but, but you, I don't know why that anecdote came, right? So. If things are getting a little edgy, going back to the what Dr.

[01:53:49] Todd Sarner 4: Neufeld called agent of futility, which is the firm clear, concise, consistent energy. And that what he called the angel of comfort, which is the [01:54:00] empathy and the um, the, the kindness. Even when things are stressful, if you can just think of those two points, right? Because your brain's gonna struggle to remember that exact perfect thing you heard on that podcast that was just so great that I, I wrote it down and I shared it with my friend.

[01:54:17] Todd Sarner 4: I can't remember it right now. Sometimes if you just remember firm, but kind, you know, firm but loving, say no if you need to say no, but also show some compassion for the experience, for the what the person's experiencing. And we can talk about that, about limit setting with kids, but in a way that's boundaries in general.

[01:54:39] Todd Sarner 6: Yeah. Like if we are in a love relationship, I need to be able to tell you. What I need, I need to be able to tell you what's happening. That's not great and doesn't make me feel good. I need to be able to tell you those things. Um, but I should pay attention to trying to say them kindly [01:55:00] and understanding how it might come across to you that you might think I'm saying, you suck that you're a bad wife.

[01:55:06] Todd Sarner 4: You're right. Yeah. I, I might, I I have to stay compassionate for that. But I do have to say it because if I don't say it, it'll just continue and the other person doesn't know. But if I just get mad and reactive and yell it at you, you actually didn't know that this was happening with me and I'm just yelling at you.

[01:55:25] Todd Sarner 4: Right. So staying firm clear, but also compassionate. I think that's the key to most boundary things. Beauty. Yeah, it is. Last question. 'cause I know I have to let you go. I often hear, let's go two more hours. Come on. Cancel everything. So we'll just, we'll just be one of those guys. Um. That, you know, parents will say all the time, oh, I have no problem communicating my boundary or setting my boundary, but I can't hold it because they feel guilty or they feel mean, or they, or they're scared.

[01:55:59] Todd Sarner 5: And I just [01:56:00] wonder what your thoughts are on why is it so hard as a parent to hold these boundaries? You know, it could be, actually no, you can't use the car because last time you did, you were drunk when you drove it. Or you know, some of these, it's not, these are pretty clear things, right? The parents are setting boundaries around no weed in our house.

[01:56:23] Todd Sarner 5: No. You know, using of substances in our house or whatever it is. And we have such a hard, like we know what we want, we know what we need to keep ourselves regulated and feeling safe and all that. But when it comes to then having to. You know, follow through with whatever we said that boundary was. We have a really hard time doing it.

[01:56:49] Todd Sarner 4: I am, I'm not just trying to be flippant to say we really could do a whole episode on that. Maybe we will, maybe we should. One day. And there's going into specifics about this actual [01:57:00] experience versus that one, you know? Um, because there's so many factors and I, I'm kind of allergic to one size fits all, anything because then, right?

[01:57:08] Todd Sarner 4: Yes. A person tries to do it and it doesn't work because it doesn't fit that, you know. But in general, I'm not trying to call out your hypothetical person saying, I have no problem setting boundaries, but I, I've been a human for a little bit. Um, I just had an anniversary of being human a couple weeks ago.

[01:57:31] Todd Sarner 4: Might be somewhere higher number these days. Uh, but, um. I don't know a lot of people that are really executing boundaries really well. And so that's not me calling out your hypothetical person and saying BS or something. I'm just saying I would start with actually looking at, are you actually doing what we're talking about?

[01:57:54] Todd Sarner 4: Right. Because some people's idea of boundaries is I'm saying no, and I'm saying no, and I'm saying [01:58:00] right. And I would say to that person, where was that compassion part? Do you know that you were doing the compassion part? Are you sure you were doing the compassion part? And some people are doing the opposite and going, but honey, I love you.

[01:58:13] Todd Sarner 4: So that's why, um, I just, I feel like maybe it would be really good if we hold to what we said about like, no weed. You remember we said that? Yeah. That is not firm. That is not clear. That is not consistent. And are you and your partner, if you have a partner, like are you on the same page about that? Are you both sending the same message?

[01:58:32] Todd Sarner 4: So again, I'm not blowing up the hypothetical, I'm just saying. I know a, I've met a lot of people in this work. I know a lot of human beings, um, in life, and most of us struggle with this. So I would start off with saying, Hey, work on that part a little bit more. Because if I'm coming across to you as just being mean, that's gonna lift you, that's gonna elevate you.

[01:58:58] Todd Sarner 4: You're gonna be mad [01:59:00] because you don't get it, mom. You don't get what I'm going through right now. You're just being mean. I need that marrow. I used to go through this with teenage boys in the group home that I worked with that were severely emotionally disturbed that we'd find marijuana in their, in their room, and we had to take it away for several reasons, including by law, but that was their medicine.

[01:59:22] Todd Sarner 4: Right? Right. That to them, that was their medicine. I can't freaking sleep at night. Right. And I've noticed that when I smoke that it helps me go to sleep. So if you just. Come across like a wall of bricks and you, I just, you are not gonna do that. And that's bad. I don't think you get my experience. Right.

[01:59:42] Todd Sarner 4: So I would start with that. And then the second part, I think of what you said to me, how do you hold that boundary? Boy? Is that what I do all day long in couples therapy? I work with really successful people. A lot of the times people are doing very well in life that they are [02:00:00] running big corporations.

[02:00:01] Todd Sarner 4: Corporations you've heard of, right? Yeah. But they cannot hold their wife's emotions sometimes. Or maybe sometimes, right. Their wife is upset and they go, why are you upset? I, you know, and holding emotions is hard, um, because all sorts of fears come up. If I really set a boundary with him, and I say he can't have, I had parents, I, I, I started in Marin County, which is a very affluent county, right above mm-hmm.

[02:00:28] Todd Sarner 4: San Francisco, maybe you know it, or other people do. I had mind-numbing conversations with parents more times than I can count that they let their 16 year olds have full bars in their room at home. And their attitude was, well, they're gonna do it anyway, so I might as well. I'm like, no, no. And, and one of the parents I was talking to, it's because their kid got in the car and drove down this big hill in Tiburon, which is like, just lined with nice cars and, you know, and, um, they [02:01:00] hit one.

[02:01:01] Todd Sarner 4: So anyway, holding space is hard and most of us have, like, I grew up with a very, um, uh, conflict avoidant personality. We can have a third episode just on my, you know, and my dad being kind of, kind of an angry dude. And so I wanted to be the opposite of angry dude, right? Mm-hmm. And I don't want conflict, right?

[02:01:23] Todd Sarner 4: That's still in me. I don't want conflict. And if you see the world as peace or conflict. Like conflict and being anti conflict makes sense. Like of course I wouldn't want to be, but I always talk to people about there's a zone in the middle and that zone is tension. Okay. All growth and all change happens in tension.

[02:01:46] Todd Sarner 4: Does that make sense the way I'm saying it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. And a lot of us are not comfortable with tension because we're too afraid. It's too close to conflict. And a lot of us didn't have great models [02:02:00] for holding tension and avoiding conflict growing up. And so again, it's a very big topic, but to me, e you don't get better at that unless a maybe some people out there like I'm trying to do right now, like the work you do, like some so many great thing gabor's work and, but say, hey, having a boundary around your child is helping to keep them safe.

[02:02:29] Todd Sarner 4: It's helping them to make sense of the world. It's helping them know where the walls are. And when we know where the walls are, we feel more safe. That's what you're doing. You're not, yeah. You know, you can't be living in fear of, if I say no, they're gonna leave and then I have no, then they're not here.

[02:02:48] Todd Sarner 4: Your job as a parent is not to make your child happy. Your job as a parent is to take care of them. And people could focus on the [02:03:00] first part of that and said, Todd says, don't make kids happy. And that's not exactly what I said. Our job is to be a mama bear. Our job is to be a papa bear. Our job is to make sure they're okay.

[02:03:13] Todd Sarner 4: And if you are fighting and struggling to hold a boundary, and that's your intention and that's what you know your intention is. Yeah. Then that's love. That's not punishment. That's not conflict. Okay? It's just work on it and get experience with it. If you need practice, go try things in life that you're not good at right now.

[02:03:38] Todd Sarner 4: Talk to people that you're not used to. Get outside of your comfort zone a little bit. Play with tension and get more comfortable with it. But remember, I'm trying to love my child and I'm trying to take care of my child, and that can often help with that inner conflict of like, but I'm hurting them or I'm disappointing them, and it is kind of [02:04:00] medicine in a way.

[02:04:00] Todd Sarner 4: Well, if you know it's harming them and it's, it's not good for their life and it's causing them pain, then the most loving thing you can do is be the person who tells them that, you know? Yeah. Did I come close to answering it a little bit? Yes. Your question. Yep. I, I really, the, the, that. Analogy or not, I don't know if it's an analogy, but the conflict and peace and that part in between where we grow makes a ton of sense.

[02:04:28] Todd Sarner 5: And just making sure, I think it's really good as a parent, if you're having that, if you're really struggling to hold a boundary to remember a, it's not punishment and it is the most loving thing that you can do. And you know, you have to be that person that is gonna keep them safe. And, and I would say the majority of the boundaries that our parents are really struggling with are very real safety issues.

[02:04:55] Todd Sarner 5: You know, it's, it's very true that we are there to keep them safe. [02:05:00] And I know if you kind of flip the, the perspective on it, like, I would want somebody to keep me safe if I was doing things that were really dangerous. For sure. So it makes sense. You know, I, I love it when, I just love being in the presence of somebody with really good boundaries.

[02:05:17] Todd Sarner 6: Yes. It's, you know, like even if they're saying no to me, like I remember I, again, my brain just jumps around to things. But, um, I remember a pretty well known author that I had a pretty good relationship with. Uh, he was local, he's written some big books. He put me on his website as somebody for people to call.

[02:05:39] Todd Sarner 4: Um, we had a nice relationship and I did an interview with him once, um, for my parenting group. And the audio was awful. He had trees being cut down in the background. I asked him again, um, like six months later, and, uh, he's just like, no, no. It's like, what do you mean no? Aren't [02:06:00] you supposed to do the nice stuff then you're supposed to?

[02:06:02] Todd Sarner 4: Right. And he's a Buddhist like teacher, author guy. And again, that's a random example, but I often joke with people too. I'm, I, I don't know if I could live in New York City. My dad's from Long Island, but, and people have made this joke before. It's just awesome when you're there because people will go, Todd, I don't like you.

[02:06:21] Todd Sarner 4: There's Todd. Remember him? He's a total jerk. You know? Exactly. It's almost relieving like, oh, at least thank you. Just tell me. Yes. Yes. When, when you are with somebody like that, it is a relief because you know where you stand. And it, and it, I think, saved you actually a lot of time and energy from trying to push your own agenda or push an agenda that you know is unhealthy because you're not, you just know you're not gonna get anywhere.

[02:06:48] Todd Sarner 5: For sure. And when it's done with love, there's a a lot of human Yeah. Because a lot of human behaviors, were just constantly operating at this unconscious level about, you know, are you okay? Am I okay? Are we okay? Are we [02:07:00] okay? And so when you just have somebody like holding the right boundary, you just, huh, I'm okay.

[02:07:05] Todd Sarner 6: Yeah. You know? Yeah. And again, I'm using kind of funny examples to also talk about something you were bringing up that's a lot more serious. And please don't anybody out there feel like. Um, I hope it doesn't come across as disrespect to a very challenging thing you're, you're dealing with right now. But just given this format and the fact that we're not in the specifics about it, I just, sometimes I just like walking around it and talking about it from a lot of different angles because I just feel like it helps people, it helps it land in people, you know?

[02:07:36] Todd Sarner 5: It does. So that's the intention, at least. Love it. Well, thank you so much. This has been incredibly enlightening. I think we need to now schedule about two more episodes. So we'll continue along with, I thought I was thinking was six. I wrote down six now, but I appreciate Yeah. We'll fully do it again sometime.

[02:07:52] Todd Sarner 5: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or the show [02:08:00] notes and resources from this episode, just go to our website, hope Stream community.org, and click podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related. We even have a start here playlist that we created, so if you're new here, be sure to check that out.

[02:08:16] Todd Sarner 5: Also, if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance use, we have got a free ebook for you. It's called Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide for Parents of Teens and Young Adults Misusing Drugs and Alcohol. It'll introduce you to ways that you can build connection and relationship with your child versus distancing and letting them hit rock bottom.

[02:08:41] Todd Sarner 5: It is a game changer and it's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried to download that. You are amazing, my friend. You are such an elite level parent. It is an honor to be here with you and please know you're not doing this alone. You've got [02:09:00] this tribe and you will be okay sending all my love and light, and I will meet you right back here next week.