What’s Tough Love and Does It Work For Addiction? With Cathy Cioth

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Tough love. Two words that get thrown around constantly in the addiction world, and yet nobody can quite agree on what they mean. Kick them out. Cut them off. Save yourself. That’s the version I heard early on, and I couldn’t do it. Not because I was too soft, but because something about it felt fundamentally wrong - especially with a teenager.

In this episode, Cathy and I get practical on the topic of this illusive thing called “tough love.” We walk through the nine actual actions we took with our own kids, in order, from the very first steps all the way to the hardest ones (ones we call “strong love”) as a way of demonstrating action, not theories. Just two moms who were figuring it out as we went, without the language, community or support we needed at the time.

YOU’LL LEARN:

• What Dr. Gabor Maté said about tough love that stopped me cold
• Why I stopped using the phrase “tough love” and what I call it instead
• Nine “strong love” actions Cathy and I took with our own kids, and what we wish we had done differently
• The thing every person in recovery has told me about what finally changed things for them
• The two books I recommend to every parent, no matter where you are in this

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Heather Hayes on Hopestream episode 111
• Mary Crocker Cook on Hopestream episode 223
• Jessica Lahey on Hopestream episode 163
• Trish Ruggles on Hopestream episode 313
• Safe Enough To Change course in Hopestream Community’s Limited Membership

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Learn about The Stream, our private online community for moms
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Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

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Transcript

Cathy Cioth - Ep. 316

[00:00:00] Hey. Hey, miss Cathy. Welcome back to the podcast. It's been a while. Oh my gosh, it has been a while. I was trying to remember the last time that we did a a session together and I can't remember, was it, was it in 2025?  It could have been. It could have been. It could have been. You and I have been traveling a lot. This, yes year. And as you know, my word of 2026 is connection, which I have now changed to airplane because just the best way to connect is in person. And to see people in person, you gotta get yourself on airplanes. So. Anyway. I've been on a lot of planes lately. You have been. I would loved it in when you were traveling just a few weeks ago.I would just joke, where in the world is Brenda today? I know, you know, with the, wheres Waldo? I need to wears Waldo hat. You do? I think I might have to make you one of those. You can knit me one. I can. Well, we wanted to hop

 [00:01:00] on and chat about a thing that comes up all the time these are the episodes that Cathy and I like to do because we hover over several hundred moms and families and we're kind of out and about in the addiction treatment world. And this idea of tough love comes up all the time and it's so interesting. Because there really is no, it's not like what's a word that has an actual definition? Like, I can't even think of one. I don't know, like, what's a word that has an actual definition? Like every, you mean every word in the English language? Like airplane has a Right.  No, I know. Well, one that doesn't have different interpretations, which is really what Tough Love does, right, has different interpretations on how you receive it. Yes and I think it's great that we're talking about this today 

[00:02:00] because it's, it's a two words together that don't look like they belong together. Yes. Is the way right.  Absolutely. I mean, even when I had Dr. Gabor Maté on the podcast, he said, there is no such thing as tough love. There is either tough. Or there is love and there's no such thing as tough love, which makes sense. And oh yeah. Also what we're gonna talk about today, they kind of can go together and make sense, which is why parents get massively confused because it's like, well wait a minute, which one is it? And so I think it's really important to do this, a bit of a deep dive on this topic. Because the last thing we need is more confusion for parents. Like, holy cow, I think they're, I think we're all confused enough.  Oh my gosh, parents are so confused. No Matér where your child is on this journey, there's so many days of confusion, what to do, what are next steps, et 

[00:03:00] cetera. And so, and so many people talking in so many, you know it all. I kind of think of, you know, you've got all these arrows pointing at you 'cause it's all different messages coming at you from treatment programs, from other well-meaning parents, from TikTok talk. It's all talk. Yeah. Right. No, I said, and so TikTok Oh yes. TikTok social media and it is incredibly confusing and what is the right path? What you know anyway. I'm glad we're talking about this and shout out to Dr. Maté because I absolutely love how he said that.  Yeah, no, it makes a ton of sense. So when I think I'd like to hear what you think of, but when I hear, you know, tough love in sort of the traditional sense, what it has meant to me is you gotta kick 'em out. You gotta cut 'em 

[00:04:00] off. Mm-hmm. You have to distance yourself and you have to save yourself. Because once an addict, always an addict, everything coming outta their mouth is gonna be a lie. Save yourself. Goodbye. That's  that. Yeah, I would echo those same words. I mean, that is exactly what I heard. In fact, when we were kind of in the middle of this, like, Hey, you gotta do tough love and what exactly is that?

You know, and absolute lack of communication. It Cold stone, you're out of my life until you can get sober and I wasn't gonna have any part of that process at all and boy, that just didn't feel good to hear that and I just thought, how do people do that? 

Yeah. It's, to me, that feels very antiquated and I don't, you know, I don't know, at least in the environment that we operate in, I don't hear that. Too 

[00:05:00] much, although I know it is still being told to parents and at the same time, we see this all the time, and especially you because you do a beautiful welcome call with all of our new members. So if you wanna talk with Cathy, you can join the stream and have a call with Cathy but what we hear over and over again is. That didn't feel right to me, that just didn't feel right or good and I couldn't do it. Is that what you're hearing when you're talking  about Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, it doesn't feel right. Is there another way? And yes, there is another way.  Yeah.  And I think, you know, also what we're gonna talk about too is how can we really maybe tweak how we see this quote, tough love. You know, and define it a little differently so that it's manageable for us and it's not the definitions that you and I 

[00:06:00] heard, and I agree with you. You do not see it that much these days. I think that it's beautiful. I think the treatment world is kind of migrated that, Hey, this we know that evidence says that connection, you know, really matters right now. So there's evidence, there's proof that, you know, keeping connection with your loved one is a really good thing and we're gonna kind of go into this about how to keep connection and also how to have health and safety safe boundaries around that too.  Yes. Yeah. Yes. Because you have to have your own sanity, and I think that's where the most confusion comes in. Like people have this misperception that you can't use both the craft approach and go to Al-Anon and be big supporters of Al-Anon, which we, I think both, I'll speak for me, but I think you agree, is that they absolutely work together. However, I 

[00:07:00] think craft can get a bad rap in that people, if you don't really understand craft, if you haven't been trained in it, if you haven't gone through all of the modules. You might think that it's really soft and that you would never do something like, quote unquote kick your kid out, which we would never phrase it in that way, but in general. Right. You know what I mean? Right, right and that absolutely does happen and we're gonna talk about, Cathy and I are gonna go through.

The different actions that we took with our own kids and how we kind of align those both with craft and with this other, I don't even know what to call it, people might not think of as craft, which actually is so, you know, we, again, we hear this over and over, I couldn't do it. It didn't seem right.

And I think that is just so primal to a mom in particular. To say, I cannot cut myself off from this human being like, I just 

[00:08:00] can't do it and I want to, and I want to help them get better and I know what I'm doing right now isn't working, so what can I do? I think that's the general consensus of what we hear in our  Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely and you know, we see that transformation of parents who do go through the modules of craft and, you know, they start small, right? With how do I kind of start this? Because really it's so difficult to kind of know where do I even start with all of it. You know, some people think, oh, I just gotta kick 'em out.

Like we, I know I can't, I don't like that we say that, but yeah, start with that. But anyway, you do see parents just having this great transformation when they're able to connect all the dots meet their kids where they are and also meet themselves where they are and understanding boundaries, what are boundaries, how they can love and still have a 

[00:09:00] good boundary.Yeah, and I love that you said start small. I was thinking of somebody posted the other day in the stream that she was at a coffee shop doing some work and her son called and said, you know, I need a ride here. Blah, blah, blah. How they do, and he's an adolescent, so he couldn't drive himself. So there was that caveat.

And she was so proud of herself because she said in the past she would've packed everything up, gone and gotten him, take him to where he needed to go, and then the rest of her day would've fallen apart, right? 'cause she didn't get her work done and she said, I, responded to his text and I said, I need an hour and a half here to finish my work and I'll come.

I'd be happy to come pick you up and take you and that is a perfect example of a small boundary that is actually huge because it's a step toward like reclaiming yourself and your time and your worth and your importance in your life. All the things that you need and you know, is that gonna get 

[00:10:00] him sober? Of course not but does it start to change the relationship? Yes, it does. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It adds that element of respect.  Mm-hmm.  I mean, I know that my kids have seen me and the change that I've had, I was like such a squishy marshmallow when it came to boundaries. I did not like them. It was anyway, and I remember the first time I started small, like our mom that did that.

It felt so good, first of all for me, and my kids told me since they were on the other side of things, it showed that I showed a respect for myself. Yes and you know, that's what was so awesome, just to have that and they viewed our relationship a little differently. Like, wow, my mom never did that before. Mm-hmm. And now she's doing it. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's great to see that because then you get those little wins. Like you do that a couple of times. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:00] Mm-hmm. And then that gives you the confidence to then move on to something that's a little bit bigger, like a curfew or, you know, not giving money when they're 26 and they run outta money on the 10th day of the month or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, so I think the thing that I like is thinking about tough love in a different way, which is, it is tough to love a young person who is struggling. I love that. With addiction. Yeah. And what that means is that you have to hold loving boundaries. You have to allow them to take accountability for their own life.And that kind of just makes sense, right? Like that It absolutely does.  Yeah. And it does make sense and no matter the age of your child, right there is that, I think it's and I get that, you know, I was there when our kids were teenagers, especially our daughter was quite young, and it was these days, well, she's only this 

[00:12:00] age, you know, definitely not an adult.But what I didn't understand is the impact of having accountability for their life was important. Mm-hmm. So important.  Yeah. Having that accountability and I think of accountability and agency a little differently. Like you wanna give them the agency to make some decisions and to try things and what we know about our kids is they don't learn from anyone else's mistakes.

They are only going to learn from their own mistakes. That's periods hands down, end of situation. Like they are not gonna learn from someone else. So we have to give them agency to try different things. Even though we might know that it's gonna fail, we have to give them that. And then after the agency, you hold them accountable for the outcome of that.

That's right. So those are two different things and I think another way to think about tough love that I was just thinking about is, that I like a 

[00:13:00] lot better is strong love because Oh, I like that.  Tough. I don't know, tough just feels to me like impenetrable and, you know, kind of like a ton of scar tissue that's built up, which we certainly do have, but it feels a little less malleable, I guess. But strong love is, holy cow, I've never seen stronger parents than the parents that we know.  Yeah, yeah. To  deal with it Tough to me indicates that it's so hard that it might be hard for you parents to do it. Yeah.  And you almost feel like giving up before even trying. Yeah. And I love that definition, Brenda. That's really great, strong love because it's more about I can do this, I can be strong, right? We can do strong things. We can do hard things, right? Yeah. And so I love that because it just automatically invites you in a little bit to try Yeah. Versus. Tough. This is gonna be tough and you're probably gonna fail, you 

[00:14:00] know? Yeah. Well, I think the counterintuitive thing that everybody learns eventually on this path is that I, what seems to be the right thing to do, and the natural thing to do is when your child needs you most and is in danger, obviously the natural parental thing to do is to help them to run toward them and to rescue them and save them, obviously. Absolutely. 

So when you hear from someone like you or me or who, Al-Anon or wherever, is that actually, that is the wrong direction to run. You need to, there are things you need to do so that they know that you're there and all of that, but running to them and rescuing them and taking, you know.

The hit for them on different things or, you know, moving consequences out of the way actually keeps them sick and in danger longer and it is. That's really true. 

[00:15:00] So backwards, like it just bends your mind 'cause you're like, wait, what? Yeah. Yeah. And the hardest thing because especially if your kids are yeah doing some very dangerous things. Right. That's very scary. Yeah. And you know, and we also forget about our own safety too, right? Yes. So just that caveat absolutely make sure you're safe but yes I remember hearing that when my kids got into treatment about, you know, the constant rescuing made it all last longer.

And I thought, really, I remember thinking this could have been done a year ago or, you know, but it's true. 'cause I was really just so afraid. And and, you know, honestly didn't know what to do, but 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, there is no guarantee. So even if you. Oh, sorry. Okay. You 

[00:16:00] okay? Yeah. No.What happened? Were you moving your computer? It was just like super loud. I did, I had to move it. Sorry. Oh shoot. Now it's hot. Now you're frozen. Oh, okay. Sorry man. Technical difficulties. Okay, yes. So it is very backwards and there's no guarantee because our kids tend to be so incredibly stubborn and they do want to learn from their own mistakes, that there's no guarantee that as you loosen your grip and you give them that agency and.

All of that, that's gonna be a shortcut. Like we wish that was the case. They could still be doing what they're doing for six months, a year, two years, five years. Like there's just no timeline on this. But what we can say is the more that you are stepping in and interfering and rescuing, that does prolong it because. I can't count how, okay. I've done 

[00:17:00] 313 episodes of this podcast, every single one of the people who I've had on this podcast who are now in recovery, and you and I have sat at multiple dinners and conferences with these folks. Mm-hmm. And we will ask them. What was the turning point for you? And every single time, I would say without exception, they say when my parents started holding boundaries and they didn't let me manipulate them because they will find the tiniest hairline, crack in a cement wall and crawl right through it.

Yeah, they're brilliant. Brilliant. And as parents, we think we can control all of that too, right? I mean, that's what it comes down to. You know, we think we can control what's going on or lessen, lessen the impact, right? And so once we realize that we can't control that, 

[00:18:00] that is out of our control. But what can we control? And those are boundaries. Those are our self care. Those are what the practices that we need to do to keep ourselves. Sane during all of this, that's when things start to change even a little. And you're right, it does take time. Yeah. And that can be frustrating too. But it matters so much to keep yourself in a place where you're not going down with that ship.

Mm-hmm. That has to be the first priority because you know, you're not gonna be any good. Like what we teach Yeah in the community and through all of our courses, is to be in a position that when they are ready for help, that you are also in a place where you can help them. So your sanity, your safety have to come first.

They absolutely do. Right and those of your children. Right. There's so most, I would say most families have other kids, that are in the home and we have to think about them not make them just an afterthought of 

[00:19:00] like, oh, huh. I wonder what's happening with them, you know?  Right, right. So, yeah, because the impact is so great on those kids.Right. And everyone else more than we realized too, I think. Oh, yeah. You know, because obviously one of your kiddos is kind of on fire here, and of course we rush in. Well, what we don't always realize is that fire could go on for several years and we're so busy tending to it, literally tending to it, renting to it, that we're forgetting about our other kids. And so yeah, it's, it's a lot. So it's complicated. If we can sort of drop the label, I like to say, just because mm-hmm. You know what might be tough love to, you might be squishy love to someone else. I mean, it's just, it's impossible right to corral a meaning around that and so what we thought we would do is talk through some of the actions that Cathy and I have taken in the past because it's more important that we focus on 

[00:20:00] actual things that you can do, actions, mindsets, mm-hmm responses. Those are things that can be very clearly defined. Like we can talk about those. So we think that that's a little bit more important, versus focusing on words that we could argue all day long about. Right. 

Yeah. It's just you're gonna be wrapped up in a dictionary definition, and really, you're right. I mean, action matters and so having a plan and it's interesting thinking about all the things that we did. You know, our paths were pretty similar, so I know, well, when I started making, I actually wrote a list 'cause I was like, you wrote a list. Dang.There's a lot of stuff here. There's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 bullet points of things that we did. Nine bullet points. There's probably some that we're forgetting.  I'm positive that there are ones that we're forgetting, but I know, I'm pretty sure that we both tried local therapy first, so we did. 

[00:21:00] Yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So when I think way back in the way, way back machine when my son was 15. 14 or 15, probably 14. We tried a local therapist. Right. Watched him mm-hmm run circles around her actually, I think there were three of them, because at 1.1 of the therapists just came out and kind of shrugged her shoulders at me, because in Washington State, our age of consent is 13, so we can't  mm-hmm. Your kids' therapist can't tell you anything, which is super helpful. I know so she would just come out and like shrug her shoulders and roll her eyes, which is all basically she could tell me, but you did the same, right? 

Oh my God. I'm just laughing because we have identical children and I remember, oh, she won't mind. It's our daughter and she was in with a local therapist and for so long we're like, she's lying to you. She's lying to you. We would say that, you know, and I remember the first time she did the whole shrug shoulders 

[00:22:00] and she just couldn't believe it and, but I will say it did help. It helped a little bit, you know, but we did try local therapy. That was great. We never did IOP or PHP at the early stages. Yeah,  no,  we found a local therapist just because we were just trying to figure out what is this? Is it mental health? And by the way, substance use wasn't really in the picture as much, you know, it was really just mental health issues is what we thought. So, and it was, it was a combination, but yeah. Yeah. So that's one thing, one place to start. Mm-hmm and I know a lot of families do that and sometimes that can be super helpful. What I wish we would have done is if your kiddo is in individual therapy and you're not seeing some success there is, I would try family therapy. I wish we would've tried family therapy. Yeah. I, along that I wish I had seen that if it wasn't working with one therapist, that we wouldn't have been afraid to 

[00:23:00] try someone else.  Yeah, because I think that you feel like we had so much invested into one and we were worried that our kid would run scared, you know? Yeah by us saying, Hey, you know, maybe things aren't improving the way you want, but it's, it is tough. You know, I go using that word. Yeah. It's a difficult situation. If you're not really sure, but I agree family therapy, we had a couple sessions, but not a lot and I think you're right. That probably would've been pretty helpful.

Yeah, because it's not, I mean, we talk about this ad nauseum at Hope Stream, which is, it's not, there is not one identified patient. There is a patient who is screaming the loudest, right? Right and has the most acute symptoms, but it's a family thing and so to just stick one person in the family into therapy doesn't make a ton of sense. Clearly they might need more, they might need something different. The other thing that I wish I would've done at that point is looked for 

[00:24:00] alternative forms of therapy, like equine therapy or Mm.  Mm-hmm. You know, like bringing my son to sit in an office park in a fake brown leather chair across from some, you know, like there was no way It's true. He was gonna open up. So even today, you know, we were in this 10 ish years ago, 11 whatever, something years ago. Today there are so many different kinds of therapy. So if that's a place where you are, I would just like dig deep, because abs 

Yeah.  For a young person to sit in an office and just feel like they're gonna open up to a therapist sitting across a desk or whatever but anyway, okay, so that was one action we took. We invited our kids to accept treatment at, as with a local therapist. Then my next move was I had to force treatment when my son was 16. We had him transported to wilderness therapy. 

[00:25:00] Just did an episode all about wilderness therapy, with Trish Ruggles. So if you haven't listened to that, be sure and listen to that. I think it's episode three 13 and we did that. Well, I talk about it in different episodes. That, for us, was mostly a safety issue because he was in a lot of danger actually here where we lived, and we had to get him physically out, and we also just needed to give him a break from all the crazy dangerous situations that he was in. So forcing treatment, again, strong love. Right? I remember thinking, who does this? Who, what parent has their child picked up at three o'clock in the morning by two strangers. Now they, when I say strangers, strangers, to him, I had had conversations with them, knew them, knew all about their licensure and training and all of that, but. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because you also did this,  right? Yeah. You're talking

 [00:26:00] to who would do this? We did it. Yes. That was truly, that was such a surreal moment. It was feeling like, how did I even get here? How did we all get here? And for us, it was absolutely a situation where if we hadn't enacted, I think that we were so afraid of, you know, our daughter losing her life. Yeah. It was, you know, frightening and anyway, it was, you're right, two strangers and I two strangers waking your child up at three in the morning. And, you know, I wanna let people know too, that transportation has changed considerably since when we did it and I'm sure there are agencies out there that still do that, but now programs have changed so that they work with families to get their children to willingly attend wilderness therapy. It was groundbreaking therapy. It was a therapeutic

 [00:27:00] treatment that was absolutely groundbreaking for our family. Yeah. And we do feel it saved our kids' lives. But it was hard to do that.  Yeah, but it was also necessary. And also our daughter said there was no way she would've gone on her own and so at the time, you know, we didn't, there again, there wasn't this kind of compassionate intervention to spend the day with our daughter or talk to her about lifestyle, what was going on and do it that way and I think that it probably would've been better for her at the time, but that was what we did. Yep.  Yeah,  Same. Same here. And you know, it's not, I would say for the most part, I wouldn't say wilderness therapy would be your first line of intervention. You know, you're gonna wanna try a bunch of other things first, but it is an excellent option, listen to the episode with Trish. It is extremely enlightening and we'll just give you a lot of facts versus myths Yeah 

[00:28:00] about wilderness therapy. So from there, I don't know about you, but what we did is after we forced treatment, which included wilderness therapy and then residential treatment, did a boarding school, my son ran away from said boarding school and we had to try and make it work at home because he did finally, after a few weeks come home and at that point we tried to work it out that he could live at home and get back, go back to high school with some conditions. We had a contract and all of that at this point I still had never heard the word boundaries. Just FYI even after wilderness?  No. Did not know we had a contract.

Okay, so that's another action is, you know, you're trying to make it work so that your child is at home, you know, they are struggling with mental health, with substance use, with maybe a dangerous lifestyle, maybe a 

[00:29:00] very isolated lifestyle, right? We hear that more often now is there's more kids who are isolating in their room, don't leave the house, haven't left the house in months and you're trying to make it work with different levels of support in that situation. Did you ever have that scenario? That actually happened before treatment? Okay. I would, so we did try, you know, when our kids were in therapy. Before wilderness, before professional intervention. We actually tried and we kind of knew a little bit about boundaries. It was really more of a contract, like you said. How do we make it work, when they were still at home and eh kind of worked, kind of didn't, you know, honestly it was, I would say that it mostly did not work.  Yeah. However, there were a couple things that we did that really helped in that situation, to have one of our children say

[00:30:00] yes to treatment because we made it uncomfortable enough with what we were doing at home. That treatment sounded like a pretty good option.  Yes. So that is an excellent strategy, and I know Trish talked about that on episode 313 about wilderness is how is making home an uncomfortable enough place to be that they want to change? And we'll put a link in the show notes. We have a course in our free membership. Actually no, it's, I think it's like $49. It's called Safe Enough to Change and it is all about how do you get your kid safe and uncomfortable so that they're like, huh, I really don't want to be at home when there's no wifi. That's not super convenient. I don't have any money on my, you know, Uber Eats. I don't have, like, those are the kinds of things that That's right you can do to create those conditions for 

[00:31:00] change in your home. And it's hard like. It's,  oh, it's hard. Yeah, it's pretty hard. I mean,  one of the things that, you know, we did was we said, you know, we didn't want our child driving the car when they were out partying. So we said, okay, no driving our car, what do I do then? Well, then you just spend the night wherever you are and so there were a lot of nights where there was couch surfing going on. Not comfortable. Right. Couldn't come home to a nice soft bed, a warm house wifi. Instead it was a beer soaked couch, or who knows? Mm-hmm. You know. Yeah and that's no fun, you know? No. And after doing that a lot,  yeah. And also that gets dangerous as they progress, right? In their use and in their lifestyle. That can get very dangerous and that is what is so painful for parents is that, you know, I'm gonna hold this 

[00:32:00] boundary of you. Let's say it's, this is a great example, you know, you can't come home, you can't drive or whatever. You know, if you hold that boundary, it's gonna put them in a potentially dangerous situation. Yeah. Yeah. And the only thing I can say to that is they're already in dangerous situations. Yes. You not, you're temporarily maybe exposing them a little bit longer than before, but it's not like they're safe and sound and then your this one boundary that you're gonna hold is just gonna like tear the whole thing apart. They are all ready in those dangerous situations. I know that doesn't make it any easier to do. Right. Because I, for a while did the same thing and then finally had to, you know, we'll talk about kind of the next things that we did. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.  Yeah, I think that's a really good example and then we didn't do this, but you did. You used a professional interventionist?  We did and it was 

[00:33:00] something that we had no idea what we were doing. We had talked to our friends at the Wilderness therapy program, and they recommended somebody, should I say her name? Should I say her name? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we used Heather Hayes. She was phenomenal and I'll never forget how nice it was when I spoke to her and she spent a good hour on the phone with me just basically affirming all the things that I felt and how there's hope and she gave me so much hope.

And so, yeah, we chose to have an intervention and it was one of the most difficult things. I really thought that forcing our child into wilderness therapy was a tough one. I think this raised it up a level because our child was an adult and needed to go willingly. Yeah. And boy, it's still emotional to talk about it. But he did, and that was the start of a wonderful healing journey. But the 

[00:34:00] professional intervention was great. They told us exactly what we were to expect, what to do. And how we're speaking to the addiction and not our child, just so many great things and it was really, really helpful. And I just was so grateful to Heather Hayes and her company for really helping us get our child into treatment.  Yeah. And she was on the podcast episode one 11. Yeah, I just looked that up quickly while you were talking. Okay. There you go. So Heather was on, and that's titled What Parents Need To Know About Trauma Informed and Responsive Transport and Interventions because like you said, things have come a long way and the interventions that are done today are not. The like, show up and threaten them and if you don't do this, yeah. The whole family's cutting you off. They're very craft like they can be, I should say, they can be very craft like they were, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will say ours was back then, which wasn't the norm for interventions. Yeah. It was very craft 

[00:35:00] like, it was, we love you and will you accept treatment and not like, Hey, you know. This is it. See you later. Right. But we did have to say, we did have to have a hard line that, you know, that this would happen, if he didn't go to treatment that he did gratefully. So, yeah.  Yeah. Okay. So that, now we are on, that was number four out of nine. Oh, okay. That's what we did. Okay. So if you're exhausted, just know. This is how it goes but you can shorten this if you are very intentional about what you're doing and I think that's something that we see is because parents are so exhausted because you're trying to do 27 things at once that we can sort of go in these hamster wheel cycles of like, oh wait, we've been doing this for a year. What are we doing? Like we need to make a change. So the

[00:36:00] next thing that is, or things that Cathy and I tried is that at least for me, I had a very kind of loose structure with Enzo, my son, living at home with I will call them very wishy-washy boundaries. At this point, I had heard about boundaries. I was trying to set some, I was not great at holding them and the reason why, and I think this is very important point, is I did not wanna hold boundaries either around the car, around money, around going to school, around all the things that I needed to, because I was scared of his reaction. Oh  yeah, I knew he was going to be really angry. I knew he was going to yell. I wasn't, at this point when he was, you know, 17 ish, 18, I wasn't. Super. Like I wasn't scared for my safety. He wasn't violent.  Mm-hmm. I just knew it was gonna be a very uncomfortable reaction and he was gonna be really pissed and he was probably gonna leave and I wouldn't 

[00:37:00] see him for three days. And bad words were gonna be said and when I look back on that, I think really, Brenda, put on your big girl pants and know that you can deal with that. I didn't have anybody telling me that. I just didn't have anybody saying, yes, sweetheart, you're gonna hold this boundary. He is gonna be livid because it doesn't work for him, because he wants to continue doing what he is doing, and that's okay. You will live. You  didn't have the, you didn't have the stream or a parent coach? Oh my gosh.  I did not. So in my mind, I just avoided, avoided, avoided. I'm just not gonna say anything. I'm just gonna let it say, well maybe next time he'll do this, well maybe next time he'll do that. Or maybe I can get his dad to say this. And I just wish I would have had the 

[00:38:00] confidence, and I think this is something that we see build in our community, is as you build the confidence in yourself, you can hold those boundaries, right? Withstand the storm that is gonna come at you. Again, assess for safety. If they are going to be violent, then you wanna do this in a different way.

For me, I wasn't worried about violence. I wasn't worried that he was gonna like attack me. I just knew he was gonna be a super duper pissed off, 17-year-old and there were gonna be doors slammed and maybe a hole through the wall. Yeah. And that's okay. It's not ideal. Yeah. But if it meant that I could have held a boundary, oh my gosh, I wish I would've done that.

Yeah, I mean, when you think about a boundary, I really can't think of a time at all that you've stated a boundary, whatever it is, and someone says, oh, that's great. Thanks so much for letting me know.  I appreciate 

It's always, yeah, I mean, usually it is gonna be uncomfortable and 

[00:39:00] even if the person that you're sharing your boundary with doesn't react in a violent way or screams and yells. It's still, there's a little bit of tension and really it's just and we teach this in the stream of how to communicate that boundary, how to stay strong in your words, and to feel confident because, you know, once that boundary happens and is someone pays attention to that boundary and you feel good about setting that boundary.

That's when your confidence starts to build and you can, like you say, you start small and you can get up to the big ones. Yeah,  I was the most mushy, as I said earlier, the most mushy boundary keeper but both of my kids didn't come home after treatment, so except for a tiny little window in there. So I really didn't have to deal with what you had to deal with after treatment, but that's tough.  Yeah. So I went from that sort of the wishy-washy. Mm-hmm being really scared to

 [00:40:00] getting a spine. I finally got a therapist. She was very helpful for me and then the next sort of action that I took was I did have firm and loving boundaries. Around the conditions where my son would be able to live at home. I got very clear with his dad, who is my ex-husband, with my husband, who is his stepdad, which complicates things tremendously. I will never forget, we went to a restaurant, the three of us, me, my ex, and my current husband. We sat down and we said, here's what it's gonna look like. Here's what's accepted and what's not and I felt so powerful. It was a little awkward.  I was gonna say, the whole dining situation sounds awkward.  That's a whole nother podcast. But so I finally did have very, I had a clear picture myself, and it took the help of a really good therapist, and that's why we are always talking about get yourself a therapist, a 

[00:41:00] coach, get in the community, like get people around you who have done this  yes. And can guide you because it is not natural in any way, shape, or form to do it yourself.  It's not. It's not. You're learning a new skill. Like you go to the gym, you don't just pop on a machine or start lifting weights if you've never done it before. Usually you get a trainer, you invite a friend. To help guide you and that's exactly what we really wanna empower people to do here is join the stream. Learn how to do, ha Okay?  Start over.  Start over. Join the stream, take the Setting Boundaries class and get yourself a coach and someone who could actually guide you with your own personal boundaries and what you wanna do makes all the difference in the world.  Hundred percent Yes. Therapist for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. You gotta wrap yourself in it and just also remember that is not forever. 'cause I know that that's expensive. Mm-hmm. I know it 

[00:42:00] costs money to get a therapist and a coach and all those things and it's not forever. You would be shocked at how much you can learn and how much change you can affect in a short amount of time. I mean Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's truly amazing. We see it all the time. Like sometimes I'm shocked. I'm like, wait, she just did that. She held that boundary like a month ago, she didn't even know what any of that meant. So it's really, really cool. So just know that this is not brain surgery right and you might be a brain surgeon who's listening. 'cause people who listen tend to be like that This is not brilliant. Yeah. It's not,  yeah.  It's not that complicated. It is not easy, we know. But when all you're just learning words to say, actions to take, how to change your mind about things, how to respond to things.

Mm-hmm. So. Anyway. I know we're running a little longer than that's kind of par for the course, but the last 

[00:43:00] three are finally, I invited my child at 17 and three quarters to live somewhere else. Because of his drug use and his lifestyle. Did you do that? I can't remember if that was No, because No, they were both adults. That's right.  They, well, yeah. I mean, yes. Our daughter went to college and never came home and  yeah,  our son lived on his own and he's, so we didn't have to do that. We did the variation of, like I said earlier, don't come home. Yeah.  You know. Days, and that was actually hard to do, but it was one of the best things. But never having to say completely. See you later. 

Yeah. That was so painful. I was a little worried 'cause he wasn't 18, but there was so much chaos in our house and at that point I had been very clear on the boundaries you need to be working or going to school and not using substances and if that's the case then you 

[00:44:00] can live with us. He didn't follow through with either of those, and so I had to and I actually went to EMDR therapy for that, the actual day when that all went down, because it was so incredibly painful and it was like living in my body, the, just the ick of having to do that and knowing that he was in such bad shape.

I mean, that morning. I couldn't wake him up. He was so Xanax out. Like I could barely get him to even move. And I knew he was sick. I knew he was, had a horrible lifestyle and this is where we talk about, I think tough love kind of does make sense 'cause it's like, man, that is tough to have to say that your 17-year-old buddy, you're on your own. You gotta figure this out. And we were also moving at the same time, and it was just so difficult and it was a 

[00:45:00] big, I was trying to think the other day. That was June and it was, it would've been eight months, nine months. So it took nine months from the time when I said. Basically to quote Campbell Manning, who was also in a recent episode, excellent. One to listen to when I said to him, basically tag your it like this is now yours to figure out, can't live with us, you've got all kinds of things another episode, but it was eight months and we had been, that's a long time. It was, but short compared to the three years that I had been on the hamster wheel. Now I would've never done that obviously when he was 15. So I'm not like comparing apples to apples. I'm just saying that I could have kept going in the squishy boundaries, like, okay, I'm not gonna say anything. 

[00:46:00] Okay, da da da da. I could've done that for another five years. 'cause he would've absolutely done that for another five years, 10 years, right? So,  and in your house and doing dangerous things in your home. So  a hundred percent,  you're right, like you said earlier, right? He could have been doing those dangerous things in your home, in his bed.  Yep.  Or outside either way. It's just you were protecting yourself and your family. Yeah. Your other son. Yes. You had to do that.  Yeah. Yeah. So that was the tough one. The next one that came after that was enabling the relationship and the connection with him while not enabling his substance use and lifestyle.  Yeah.  And that was, and I think this is the step that people miss, and this is where craft comes in, which is, buddy, you can't live with us. I don't know where you're gonna live. But you can't live with 

[00:47:00] us because this is too dangerous. Help is available when you want it. I've got it lined up. I got got you when you want it, but you can't live here and we would meet occasionally. I've talked about this a lot on the podcast. We would meet for lunch or whatever, and just talk about whatever. And I know you did that with your daughter too. You meet, you keep, like you say, you keep the bridge constructed.  Yeah. Yeah.  Such that was some of the most special time actually, I have such good memories of those times because, basically at that point, that's when, we did, I also had a therapist and she was kind of guiding us, and that's Mary Cook. She's also been on the podcast. She's also been on the  podcast and she helped guide me on, what to say, what to do. And I tell you, just learning that I could meet her, and just talk about everything, but her substances or 

[00:48:00] whatever, the drama that was going on, it was awkward, but it was also really special just to be in her presence and I just love that, we really enjoyed each other's company and we did the same thing. We would meet. I have a little picnic and I give her a hug and I would say, whenever you're ready. Yeah. You know, and I'd leave. Yeah. And one day she said, I'm ready. It was great. Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah. So that is a very important part that I just, I think we hammer it home a lot, but I just wanna make sure in case the first episode somebody has listened to is that is the part of being able to keep the connection and keep yourself safe and sane at the same time.  Yes.  So that's the big distinction there. I can't find the episode with Mary Crocker Cook, but we will put that in the show notes 'cause that is an excellent episode and then the last one is, like I just said, basically we

[00:49:00] provided help when they asked for it, so  mm-hmm. Our kids always knew, when you're ready, we will be ready you had that I did not because my son overdosed and he didn't ever have a chance to ask for help. He was just put on life support because that is what was required. So he didn't, but actually, he did ask for help when he had to go to court one day and I was there for him and that was a really, really special day. He did end up getting booked into jail 'cause he forgot about a warrant that was out for his arrest. However, that's another story. But we can laugh at it. We can laugh at it now. Could not have laughed at it then. But he did. He called me and said, mom, will you go to court with me? And I hadn't talked to him in probably a month, so, wow. That is why that step of keeping the connection is so important and so good.  There's a lot of nuances to that that we can help you through if you're 

[00:50:00] in the community as far as safety, as far as all those kinds of things, so that you don't sort of fall into a manipulation pattern or a bribing pattern or anything like that. Right.  So, right, right.  So that's important. But look, those are nine actions that we took out of strong love. Very action oriented, some more than others. Looking back now, we could say that, but it is so hard and painful to do, and  it is, we wanna acknowledge that if you're, you might be like, wait, I'm only on the first step of that, or I'm only on the second step. You don't have to go through all of them. I think Cathy and I would both say that if we had been stronger with boundaries and we had known more, we were just more educated. Oh  my gosh.  We would've done differently.  Oh, how many times have I said I wish there was a craft book for the what to expect when you're expecting I so wish I knew about craft and 

[00:51:00] motivational interviewing and all that communication that we do with our kids when they work in their toddler years and old, because I think that, and not saying that, oh, we were so bad. I mean, it just, it really helps in terms of having our kids talk to us and get to a place, learning about boundaries and not being afraid of the outbursts and everything else. Yeah. I think you know it all, and maybe it all would've happened anyway, but really, I just, anyway. 

Yeah, no, so I will say the book you wanna read, if you have younger kids or stepchildren or whatever, even grandkids, is The Gift of Failure by Jessica Lahey. Mm. Mm-hmm. That is the book I wish I had read. I don't think it was written when our kids were little that is the book that teaches you how to set this up from the beginning. And if your kiddo is in the teenager years and you're worried about them struggling, read The Addiction Inoculation also by Jessica Leahy. She

 [00:52:00] was also on the podcast, so we'll put her link in the show notes, those two books together, super, super powerful. So definitely look at those, but I know we need to wrap it up, but I just think, I'm hoping that this was helpful for looking at that concept of tough love. Yes, it is so freaking tough. So tough. But let's make it strong, right? Yes, it is. But let's make it strong. You could do it. Look, you're doing it now. You might be in the most impossible situation. You might feel that this is absolutely impossible, but I guarantee you're not alone. Yeah, and you can make a change. You can do it. It might feel really, really difficult that you can do it  Well, I can't think of a better way to wrap it up than that. So thank you for There you go. Thank you for putting a bow on it for us and will see you the next time. Thanks Cathy. Good, good chatting Brenda. 

Bye.