Hard Conversations: Have Them Today, with Cathy Cioth

Trigger Warning: this episode discusses loss of a child due to substance use. Please decide if this is the right time to listen. 

A few weeks before this episode was recorded, one of the moms in our community lost her son. He had been through treatment, through sober living and had the most supportive family. His parents had done everything possible, with grace and with love, and he still lost his battle with addiction. Cathy and I went back and forth about whether to talk about it - because we never want to add to the fear that already lives in your chest every single day.

But we’re asking you to do hard things, and that means we have to do the same. This is the reality of what our kids are facing. High-potency THC is not the weed of twenty years ago, and we are talking to parents every week whose kids are in crisis from it, not from fentanyl, not from meth, but from what many still consider the ‘safe one’. 

We also talk about something we haven’t directly addressed on this show: vicarious trauma in our kids. The bullying on their phones where we can’t see it. The friend who overdosed in front of them. The violence at school they never mention. These are often the invisible fire under the behaviors that make no sense to you.

One thing stayed with me after we finished recording: the idea of speaking to your child as if every word might be the last they ever hear from you. Not in a morbid way, but as a filter. As a way back to what matters most.

If you have been putting something off because it feels too hard, or not quite urgent enough yet, this one is for you.

YOU’LL LEARN:

• Why Cathy and I almost did not share what happened, and what changed our minds
• What high-potency THC is doing to adolescent brains and why parents shouldn’t dismiss it as ‘safer’ than other substances
• The invisible traumas your kid may be carrying that explain the behaviors you can’t make sense of
• How to not pick up the rope when every instinct tells you to
• What one parent said about speaking to your child that might change your next interaction with them

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Stages of Addiction: Hopestream podcast episode 322

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Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

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Transcript

Episode 332 Hard Conversations: Have Them Today, with Cathy Cioth

[00:00:00] Hey, Cathy Oh my gosh. Hi, Brenda. Hey. It feels like forever. I know. We both took some time off, which- Yeah ... much needed. I guess I would say highly recommend. It's in the highly recommended category, right? It is. It's in the highly recommended, and I would say too Really look what you need, because- Mm ... if you're thinking, "I need to take time off," and you're gonna go jump over to Europe, and you don't have a full cup that you're dealing with already, I really want you to explore, do you need to go all the way to Europe-

to do that? Is this coming from personal experience- Is this coming- ... by any chance? A little bit. A little bit. But you know what? How I had a great time is, and I can let everybody know that I got to travel with my daughter and, you know, this was kind of our first trip alone since she's been in sobriety, and it was amazing and 

[00:01:00] different, and just, you know, we had a great time. Yeah. But boy, that jet lag. I'm not gonna lie, that is some tough stuff. It's real. It's real. I know, I think because our phones have made the and YouTube and everything else, have made the world- Yeah ... feel really small, right? It's like, "Oh my gosh- Mm ... I can see my friends who are on vacation in this country and that country," and...

But when you actually have to get your your own physical body there- It's a lot ... it takes a long time. It's a lot, and especially coming from the West Coast- Yes ... like I am. You know, that is just, it just adds on. We decided next time we do this we're gonna go hang out in New York City for a while. Right.

It gets us a little closer, right? Yes. You deal with a little bit of the jet lag and, you know. Yes. And we had a great time. Overall, I would not trade a thing. It was really fun. But and just so needed. Yeah. You need to fill your 

[00:02:00] cup and step away, even though it's hard sometimes to step away. Yeah, it is. And, you know, while you were gone, I was on calls with our moms, and it was really nice to be able to say, "Listen, Cathy is- Mm ... on a trip right now with her daughter, and if you would have said four years ago that she would be doing what she is doing today, she would have laughed you out of the room," right?

You're right. So that is proof that things do change, and we just have to remember that, because it's so easy, and you and I see... You know, we talk to a lot of our moms in the membership it's easy to get that really zoomed-in, myopic view of what's happening today, in this hour, in this moment, with this situation.

And of course it is, because that's what you're dealing with. And so you have to find ways to be able to zoom out and take that long view and say, "You know what?" Right. "In four years, I might be 

[00:03:00] going to Europe with my kiddo, who right now is in all kinds of a mess of a situation." That's right. You know what? And if you can't think of Europe, just think of one day I'll be able to have a meal with my kid- Yes ... and just connect for 30 minutes, right? I mean, you know, it starts small, these- Yeah ... little changes. And, you know, I think it's really important that we're talking about this now, 'cause today's topics are really a little different than what we've done in the past.

I mean, they're similar I guess, but there's a lot going on in this podcast. And I think that even if you could just zoom out for a little bit and think, "How can I have a connection for 15 minutes, for 30 minutes?" And just grow on that, is just so important. And, you know, looking back on all of this that you're going through right now, what are you gonna say?

I'm really glad that I did that. Yes. Yeah. I'm really glad that I had this time and that I thought I could have this time without having that narrow laser-focused view of what 

[00:04:00] is going on right today. It's so important, and we recognize and acknowledge it is hard to do. Because- Yes ... you just get really wound up in today's drama. And so today Cathy and I are following our own advice. When I worked at Microsoft, they called it eating your own dog food, because- ... you know, we would test all this different software before we released it- Yeah ... to the world, and so you would go around and be like, "Oh, are you on the dog food version of Outlook?"

But you know, we talk a lot on the podcast in our community, and we try not to give advice, but we do share what's helpful. And one of the things that's really helpful is to have hard conversations, because we know that we can get through them. They're not gonna kill us, right? Like, we can get through a difficult conversation, and that's one of the things that we have to do today. And Cathy and I have been... You and I 

[00:05:00] have been- Going back and forth about this a little bit, do we share this? Do we not? Yeah. How does this land? And we decided that in order to eat our own dog food, we needed to share it because it's reality. And unfortunately, we did lose one of the kids in our community, one of the kids of the moms in our community- Yeah

a couple weeks ago, and it is always devastating to say... There isn't a word, right? There isn't even- There, there are no words. No. And it's, there are no words, and it's always comes as a surprise, too, even though sometimes it may not feel like it. It's just, it's so difficult. And oh, my gosh, I just, I feel speechless about it still today. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really hard. It's really hard, and even more so because you know this mom personally, Yeah ... before she even became a member of our community. Yeah. And so that 

[00:06:00] adds an extra layer. I've met her multiple times as well, and so it, yeah, it just hits super, super hard. And so the reason... You might be wondering, "Well, why did you guys vacillate on whether you should share this or not?" And we are incredibly sensitive to the amount of trauma that our listeners and our members in particular, because we know them more, are going through. We know that every day there could be a significant amount of trauma, and we don't wanna add to that.

And we don't want to play on the fear factor. And so- That's right However, this is reality. This is a situation that our kids are in. They have a life-threatening illness. If they are in active addiction, even if they're experimenting, we know several moms who have lost kids who were not addicted. They were- That's right ... experimenting 

[00:07:00] with pills, and this is a couple years ago, a little bit more when fentanyl was, a little bit more prevalent. But it is the reality, and this young man passed as complications from his substance use, and I think we're, this, we still don't know, right, the- We still don't know, no

exact reason. Yeah. And I... Right. Right. Nor does it really matter. It really doesn't. And, and like we were talking about before, the connection that this family had with their child is just... Look, I know a few people personally whose children passed, with complications due to substance use and mental health, and one thing that I think is such a beautiful testament to these families that I know is that I think they could say pretty confidently that their relationship with their child was beautiful, and the fact that their child knew how much they loved and 

[00:08:00] cared for them. Yeah. And that it wasn't their fault That this happened and it, as terrible and unfortunate it is, that the parents know how much, they know that their child knows how much they l- love them- Yeah ... during this time and supported them. Yeah. And and sometimes it just, this happens, and it's devastating.

So, you know, this young man was fortunate to have opportunities to go to treatment. That's right. Been, you know in various forms of treatment, sober living. And that, I think sometimes we think of treatment as being the end all be all. Like- Right ... gotta get him into treatment and that's gonna fix everything. And that isn't always the case, you know? No, you're right. In fact, it's rarely the case that it's the be all, end all, right? Yes. That would be great- Yeah ... if everybody that went into treatment of some kind or another that was the 

[00:09:00] absolute solution. But we do know that there are many solutions, and it looks different for everybody. And relapse happens. Mm. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes there's complications from the actual substance- Yes ... as we don't really even need to say this, right? But I will. The substances that we're using, including high-potency THC, folks, I mean, this is really- Yes ... what we're talking about is that it's a very, very dangerous thing. I wish we could just say, "Oh, it's fentanyl and meth," and all of those, but there are so many complications now that we're seeing, and there's more studies coming out about the complications and the devastating effects of high-potency THC. Yep It is, I mean, talk about something that's gonna exacerbate a mental health condition. Mm-hmm. That's it for sure. And yeah, I think people do, and parents in particular, think meth, cocaine, 

[00:10:00] heroin, fentanyl, like those are the really bad substances, right? Yeah and we just wanna add high-potency THC to that list because- That's right ... we are seeing it every day. And i'm working on a THC-induced psychosis episode, so watch for that in the coming probably month. However, when I talk to treatment program owners and therapists and people and staff, it is high-potency THC. That's all we're talking about. Rarely- That's right ... are we talking about fentanyl anymore. Not that that's not happening, 'cause- Mm-hmm ... I know it is, and we have moms in our community whose kids are using fentanyl. But I would say the majority of our conversations are all about high-potency THC and the devastating impact it's having on their kids' mental health. Yeah. Hugely, hugely problematic. Especially with we're finding, right, in the 

[00:11:00] adolescent brain, you know, that is where they're seeing a lot of it, right? So you may be a listener whose child is just, maybe you just found some weed in their bag or whatever that is.

I really think that we need to talk about these conversations with your child really need to happen. I know when we started on this journey over 10 years ago, it was, "Well, kids experiment," and all of that. But it's really a different weed today. It's high potency, and on the adolescent brain in particular, they're seeing such devastating effects about it.

And especially with kids now, they're not smoking a joint, they're putting it in vape pens, and so they're, it's constantly in their mouths and they're constantly using it all day long, not just- Yeah ... a session. Yeah. Or whatever you call it. Yeah, absolutely. So, And also all the synthetic versions of that, right? Abso- oh, right And to get pure, like, 

[00:12:00] naturally grown marijuana flower these days is less likely than a Mm-hmm ... lab-grown synthetic version of THC, which is a completely different product, and like you said, it's in their hand, in their mouth all day long. It's a little bit- Yeah ... like an accessory, right?

In one hand is the phone- Yeah ... and in the other hand is the vape, and it's cool and it's, you know, it's pink and it's got crystals on it and it's whatever. Like, it's a thing. It's a whole thing and the other thing that we should mention is that it is not just THC that's causing psychosis. We have many members whose kids are experiencing psychosis from other substances.

So by no means- Mm-hmm ... is THC the only one. It's kind of like you can think of, if you have a mental health condition, and maybe you don't know your child has a mental health condition. You've seen some behaviors and you're wondering, you're curious, but there's been no diagnosis. There's always a finger on the trigger, of a gun, right? Yes. 

[00:13:00] The finger's on the trigger. You add on these substances, that is the finger pulling the trigger, and now you're... I don't know how many analogies I can work into one sentence. That doesn't- I'm probably making it more confusing, but now you're off to the races, because- Yeah ... you have just unleashed something.

And unfortunately, the kids think that the more they use the substance, the more they're gonna be able to control the mental health condition And that makes sense, right? Because okay, it helps me sleep, it helps me calm down. And temporarily that might be the case, and that's why they do it, because it works.

And then they get to a point where it is not working anymore, they're having to use more, they're having to use more often. It is not, they're not getting the same relief that they were getting when they first started using. But at that point, you're trapped in this cycle of, "Well, now I can't stop 

[00:14:00] using because I'm sick if I don't use," or, "I can't get out of bed," or, "I can't go to sleep." Right. So now it's a functional thing versus a, "Oh, hey, I'm gonna go hang out with my friends and get high" thing. And that can be a slippery slope very quickly. Like months, not years. Not years. We are talking- Months ... months. And how frustrating for your kid, right? When they're like, "It works so well. I don't understand why it's not working."

Yeah. And you as a parent sitting back and also wondering why is it not working, because you probably don't know, right? Yeah. And so it's just so very difficult, and why we just really feel this is so important to talk about, because it might be time to help bring in professional help here to help you with all of this, to recognize these signs and really take this very seriously. Yeah. We, I will say, and we've talked about this before so I will just say it again, that 

[00:15:00] we are seeing, as are many of the consultants in this space, parents coming to get help for themselves. That could be with us at Hope Stream, it could be with a consultant, even a treatment program, where their child is much more acute than they used to be years ago.

You know, parents would show up at the door for help and a kiddo was, you know, struggling, let's say, on a scale of zero to 10, kiddos were at a four to five And there's all kinds of behaviors that go with that. But things were not at a nine or a 9.5 or at a 14. And that's what we're seeing today is, you know, some of the...

And you're on calls just like I am, and some of the moms are explaining what's going on with their kids, and my heart rate is, like, shooting up because I'm thinking, "This kid needs help today." And I know that it's not that the parents don't want to get them help. Parents are saying, 

[00:16:00] "Oh, I would do anything to get my kid help." But they may not necessarily understand the severity of what they're seeing because, one, could be an only child, so you've never had this. Two, could be your first kid who's ever struggled with substance use, so you don't know. Which is why I actually did an episode, I'll put it in the show notes, a few back on the stages of addiction.

So if you're mm-hmm ... curious about, like, what's going on and the things that you're seeing, and you wanna know... Like, the reason I did it is because if somebody comes to you and says, "Oh my gosh, Cathy, I just got diagnosed with stage four cancer," you know what that means, versus, "Oh my gosh, I got diagnosed with stage one cancer."

That tells you two different stories, right? Same thing applies in addiction, but we don't really necessarily have stages, but there are different levels. So that would be a good episode to go back and listen to. I'm sorry I didn't look that up, but we'll put it in the show notes, stages 

[00:17:00] of addiction, or you can just search it on our website. But they are coming in much more acute, which means, you know, why we wanted to talk about this, is that we need to get them help sooner than later. Yeah. And every program- Yeah ... every consultant, every therapist will say, "I have yet, in 27 years or in 32 years of doing this, I have yet to have a parent show up at our door and say, 'Oh, you know, we probably showed up too soon.'"

Like that- Right ... never happens. And we have moms come into the Stream, "I wish I would have found this a year ago." "Two years ago." Right. "I wish I would've-" Right ... "listened to that little thing on the podcast and just tried it for two weeks free." Like, because you start to get perspective, because what you're seeing are other parents sharing what's going on in their home, and you can gauge a little bit, like, 

[00:18:00] "Oh, well, I was dealing with that two years ago, and now I'm dealing with this." Right. Or it could be... You know what I mean, so. Yeah. And also, to look at not only are you prolonging your pain, right? But you're prolonging your child's pain. Yeah and if you could think about that we also prolonged, i'm gonna be very honest, we did not know what to do.

So Brenda and I aren't sitting here saying, "Oh, yeah, you need to do this," 'cause we did that way. Oh, no. We also have been there. But just from our perspective of what we've been seeing, and I think, personally if I could say, gosh, if I could go back and maybe have acted sooner, whatever that looked like for- Yeah our family, I would have. Because I realize that my pain and my husband's pain was so great. But now that My kids are in sobriety and my son actually said to us last week, we were with him, 

[00:19:00] and he was saying, "Mom, it just, prolonged my pain." You know? Like, it prolongs the pain of the child who's in active addiction. Mm. And and I think I never had that perspective. I never thought of that. I just kept thinking, "I'm in so much pain. This is hurting. Yes, I know my kid's in pain," but I never really thought of it as I'm prolonging their pain by not really knowing what to do, right? Right. Right. And that's why I love what we have on the Stream, because we do have lots of different ways to offer help to our kid, you know?

Invitation to change and CRAFT is the start of that. Yeah. There are other things that were super helpful, right? Boundaries. What do the boundaries look like, in our home now I've got really good boundaries Yeah ... which I didn't at the time. Yeah. So, that allowed usage in our home, and I was so wobbly with my boundaries, I really didn't know how to say, "This is absolutely not okay with me and my environment and what's going on here."

[00:20:00]  Totally. And also, we have an Ask Me Anything parent edition coming up in the community, which is veteran parents who have been through To hell and back- Oh my gosh ... several times answering your questions. You can ask them anything. Nothing is off limits. So we have things like that. Also, I think a lot of times we just, we are in so much pain, and yes, we see that our kid's in pain, but the symptoms of addiction and substance use look so defiant.

They look oppositional. They look chaotic and criminal and dangerous. And so we don't tend to think of those as a symptom of a condition, an illness, a disease, whatever you wanna call it. We think of those as behavioral things, and it's harder to be empathetic and compassionate for somebody who's doing things that looks on the outside like a 

[00:21:00] behavioral decision. And I know for me, I avoided a lot of the conversations that I needed to have sooner in order to help my son, because I didn't know how to have those conversations without it- Mm-hmm ... blowing up in our face. Somebody slamming a door, punching a hole in the wall, or screaming or... And I just didn't want the backlash of the confrontation.

And I'm not talking about confrontation in a confrontational way. Confrontation in a, like, "We need to talk about this." Yeah. "I see you're hurting. I am hurting. Your siblings are hurting. Your dad... Like, we need to have a conversation about this, my beautiful, challenging child." I didn't know how to do that.

And so those are things that we teach, which is, yeah, it's gonna be painful. You don't wanna have these conversations. You don't wanna hold the boundary. You don't wanna request that they get some help. It's gonna suck 

[00:22:00] 100% Yeah. And you can do it, and you're gonna be better off for it in the end. Your child is gonna be better off for it. So those are the kinds of things I think people wonder, like, "Well, what happens in the community," right? Like, what happens versus the podcast, like, what would I be doing if I was a member? It's those kinds of things. Like, it's not as much the what you need to do, it's the how do you actually do it at 2:00 in the morning.

First of all, you don't do it at 2:00 in the morning. You don't do it at 2:00 in the morning. We will just give you that. Newsflash. Don't do it at 2:00 in the morning. But how do I have a conversation to say- Mm-hmm ... "I am truly concerned about you," and not have it blow up, right? So it's those kinds of thing.

It's the application of the tools. We can give you- The application ... every tool in the book here on the podcast. We, Cathy and I literally would sit here till we're blue in the face giving you the tools. I think we have probably given- I think we have ... almost all the tools on the podcast. In 300 and, 

[00:23:00] I don't know- Right 30-something episodes, we've probably given all the tools. It's how you actually use that tool in real life, in your room, with your child, with their diagnosis, right? With their substance of choice. We had a big conversation this weekend. We have a Coffee and Care every month where Cathy or I get on. We literally just have coffee, and we care about each other.

One of the things that is really important is to know what substance is your child using? Because- Mm ... we had a couple of moms on the call whose kids were using meth, and I will tell you that that can be a very different experience in a conversation or if you're trying to have some dialogue than if your child is on opiates. These are the kinds of- Right ... things that we get into that are so nuanced, that you need to have somebody talk it through 

[00:24:00] with you. And we had a long conversation about safety, about knowing your local crisis response team. Those are the conversations that you have to have somebody help you apply these tools to your specific family and your child, and down to, like, where are you physically located in your home, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kids coming home from treatment, and their room is still a mess, and there's still holes in the walls because parents want the kids to patch that up, and is that good or bad? Like, it's all those kinds of things. Anyway. I think I'm glad that we talked about our family who lost their son.

It is beyond devastating. You know, I think you and I, we call the kids of the parents in our community our work kids, because they really do- Yeah ... feel like our kids. 'Cause we get to know them through their parents, and we know their 

[00:25:00] personalities. Some of them, not all of them, obviously. And so to lose one and we have lost many, I will say. This is not the first by any means. It does set us back a little bit. It's a heartbreak for us. It is. Not out of failure, not out of a sense of failure or anything. And especially for this family, they have the reassurance that they did everything- They did ... possible. Everything. They did everything.

They did everything, and with such grace and beauty. And I got to walk with my friend alongside all of this, and gosh, I'm like honestly tearing up a little. I'm just so proud of her because- Yeah ... she herself has changed so much over this journey. And just the way she honored their child she and her husband spoke- Yeah ... and it was so beautiful. And I just know that she's changed so much, and just really got the message 

[00:26:00] that really what it came down to in the end was just loving him and connecting with him, and he knew that. And that, I think that's success, you know knowing that. Yeah. And it's devastating. I just... It happens and anyway. Yeah. I'm glad we did talk about it. I'm so sad that we have to talk about it, but it is the reality that we have to talk about It is the reality. And again, we don't say this to scare you, we don't say this as, like, a fear thing. We say it because we want you to be aware that, even quote, unquote, "just THC use" can have devastating results.

And it can be easy to put off that conversation. It can be easy to put off watching the video that helps with how to have the conversation. It can be easy to say, "Oh, I know there's a call tonight," 

[00:27:00] warrior moms or, you know, for kids- Mm-hmm ... who are in recovery. Like, it's so easy to put that off. It really is- Yeah because you're like, "Oh, I'll go to the next one. I'll go to the next one. I'll..." You know, "Well, maybe I'll go to the retreat next year. I'll gift myself that." Yeah. Do it today. This mom would give her left arm to have the opportunity to go back and have one more conversation. Might not change anything. That's right.

Exact same thing might have happened, but she will never have to worry that she didn't do everything possible to help him and- That's so right ... and help herself and the rest of her family, right? 'Cause you have to keep everybody safe. Well, that's what it came down to, right? Yeah. And so it is true, she would give everything just to have that one more conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and I think it was Bill, our former host of The 

[00:28:00] Woods, who unfortunately passed a few years ago, but he, told me also, because he lost his son, he said, "You know what? As hard as it was, he knew he was so loved up until the very last minute. And I knew how much I loved him, and we got to have this amazing relationship."

And he also said, and, and we have another mom who has told us this before, to think about the next time you see your child who brought you here Think about the words that come out of your mouth as if they are the last ones your child is ever gonna hear from you Hmm. Wow. Yeah. And what would you say? Wow. Because- Yeah ... and this is true for everybody, right? Not just for kids who are struggling. Our parents, our kids, our everybody. If these were the last words that went into their ears, would you feel good about that? And I think that's a really- That's a great- ... good 

[00:29:00] little filter- Yeah ... to apply. If you're having a hard time with compassion, if you're having a hard time with empathy, think about that and see if you can pull that out, and it's hard.

We acknowledge that it's hard but I think it's a really good filter. So- Yeah, I love that ... I think that's probably enough on that. It's so hard. It's so heavy. You can probably hear it in our voices, and Cathy, you were even closer and went to the service, and I just... Oof, it's, it's a lot. And then the other thing that we wanted to talk about on this very heavy episode is vicarious trauma that our kids experience- Mm

because we have seen this so much, and we've never... I don't know that we've ever really talked about it. I know you and I went to a conference where they talked about the vicarious trauma that people in our profession, in the helping professions- Right, right ... carry. Yeah ... but there's also a version of this that our 

[00:30:00] kids carry. Because I was one of those moms who looked at my son and the life that he lived, and we're by no means, like, wealthy or, you know, had some crazy lifestyle, but he didn't want for anything, and I couldn't see I would hear about trauma or difficulties or struggle, and I'm like, "This kid hasn't had anything."

Like, I really couldn't see it. And so what we have seen more recently And we think it's worth mentioning is if you're having a hard time understanding why your child's behaviors make sense, and this is directly from the Invitation to Change, approach, their behaviors do make sense. And the vicarious trauma that we're talking about are things that our kids may be experiencing, feeling, seeing, that we do not see, that could just be 

[00:31:00] surrounding them and not- Mm actually happening to them directly. They're happening indirectly around them. Things like bullying, which we don't see anymore because it's all happening on their phone. Things like, sextortion, and I'm actually trying- Mm ... to figure out how to do an episode about that with some experts, because that is real, folks, kids.

Oh, my gosh. It's a, talk about a terrible and scary thing. I mean, I've read some Firsthand accounts of those and it's just unreal, you know? And things definitely a parent would not know. I mean, think about it. What we're usually seeing is the tip of the iceberg in almost everything, right? When it comes to substances or all of these teenage-y, angsty things, you know? And we think, "Well, you know, I don't see it, so it must not be happening." That's not true at all. That 

[00:32:00] is not true at all, and our kids are experiencing so much of that through their social media accounts. And I'm so- even if your child did not have social media, just from the fact that they're in high school or college or whatever that is, and they're around folks and they're talking about it and they hear these stories, it feels like they're, it's happening to them.

They identify in one way or another. They're the same age, or maybe they know somebody. What is that degree of separation for them? Yeah. Yes. The other things that we see that our parents mention, and sometimes they mention them a little offhandedly, which- Yeah ... I get- You're right ... because you don't necessarily know.

So some other things besides the bullying, the sextortion, is violence in the school. So kids, and this can happen to the degree where even the administration and staff don't know it's happening. It's in the bathrooms. Yeah. There's sexual assaults happening in the 

[00:33:00] bathrooms. There's just violence on campus. There are school shootings. There are things happening that we do not know about, and our kids are seeing them. If it's not happening in their school, they are watching it happen on their telephone. It is a little, like- Mm-hmm ... handheld violence machine, I think and so all of these things that are happening around them are impacting them.

And then if you have a kiddo who's got anxiety Who's got depression, and then you're layering all those things on top of it. And they don't wanna tell you. They do not wanna- Yeah ... tell you what's going on. They do not wanna come and say, "Oh, Mom, you know, this kid overdosed in the bathroom." And that's the other one, that's the one I forgot to mention is friends overdosing.

Whether it's fatal or not, hugely traumatic. And I can't count how many of the kids of the moms in our community have witnessed an 

[00:34:00] overdose of a friend. That's true. That, that is a big one. And suicidality, too. Yes. I mean, let's talk about that. Yes. There's a lot of that going on, and kids aren't bringing those up. Eating disorders. I know when my daughter was very young, she had, acquaintances or good friends, actually, that were struggling with things like that. And I didn't know what to say to her, right? Right. I mean, why don't they come to us? It's 'cause we don't know what to say. Or our first thing to do is to lecture or tell them not to be friends with that person or whatever that is, right?

Right. I mean, they, our kids know us well. They know how we're gonna react. Yes. So- Yes, which is one of the things that we really work on in the- Right ... community is regulating your nervous system and teaching you how you can respond differently so that you do become the safe place for your child versus the place where they're like, "Ooh, I definitely don't want my mom to know about that." That's 

[00:35:00] right. We wanna turn that into, "I definitely need to go talk to my mom about this," or my dad. Yeah. Either one. Yeah. That's the shift that we would like to see happen. So yes, the overdoses, the suicidality, even the self-harm. We had a mom- Mm-hmm ... not too long ago saying, you know, she was so grateful because one of her daughter's friends came to her and said, "She's cutting where you don't know it, where you can't see it."

Mm-hmm. And so that was a really big wake-up call for the mom. So those, you know... Okay, great, what do we do about that? I think the thing to really focus on there is behaviors make sense. Mm. They are doing these things for a reason. That reason may not be visible to you, like all the things that we just mentioned, but know that typically, and I'm not gonna say always 'cause we don't like absolutes, but typically, kids don't engage in these behaviors that are hugely 

[00:36:00] dangerous and risky just for fun, just because they have nothing else to do. Of course not. Just... Now, they may- Right ... do some experimentation because it's, they're kids, right? They're young people. Even if they're 23, like, there's some of that going on. But if they continue it, and this is where those stages of addiction are gonna be helpful, listen to that episode, if it continues and it escalates and they're starting to have health consequences, friendship consequences, family consequences, and then they still keep using, that is a huge signal that there is something deeper going on.

Mm-hmm. Much deeper going on. This is not just a for fun thing anymore. Yeah. So. It won't resolve on its own is basically, what we're saying. And that's... it's just so important to be aware of that. Yeah. And to figure out ways to how... But to understand, like you said, to understanding that

[00:37:00] behaviors make sense here is just so, so important. Because when we understand that concept, we just approach things a little differently, right? We're not approaching out of fear or anger or anything el- You might feel those things, I'm not saying, but we do learn that we need to temper some of that so that we can actually be proactive and help our children- Yeah

versus the reactive ways that we would respond otherwise. Yes. Reactive, emotional reactive situations don't move anything forward in a healthy direction because- No ... we tend to say things we don't mean. We say things that are very hurtful. We get ourselves all riled up, and what we're also doing is we are picking up the rope in that situation. So, if you're reacting from an emotional standpoint, yelling, screaming, negotiating, bribing, blaming, shaming, you are just playing tug of war with your 

[00:38:00] kid. And if you refuse to pick up the rope and instead say, "Huh, this, things are getting really heated. I'm gonna take a break and come back to this. I promise I will come back because I care about you and I love you, and I can see that you're in a lot of pain or distress," or whatever it is.

That is the best way to avoid picking up the rope and just continuing to play tug-of-war, and we see parents who've been playing tug-of-war for years. Years. Oh, come on. I was the queen of tug-of-war. Do you have like a tug-of-war medal- I- ... that hangs around your neck? I actually have a trophy that is- Oh, okay

I'm looking at it right now. I was really good at tug-of-war. Excellent. Yeah. I just, I couldn't understand why it never worked, but I loved to pick up the rope, because I felt like I had to, right? Yes. I mean, that's what... That was the thing. I felt like, if I don't act now, there isn't gonna be a later time. I didn't realize that I could actually say, "I'm gonna take a break and come back to it later." Right. That, I love that you said 

[00:39:00] that, 'cause actually, that's actually one of my favorite things, is to say, "I need the break." It's not like saying, "Hey, you're out of control. I'm not, you know-" Yeah ... "you need to calm down." It's more that, you know, you put it on you, right? Like, "I need the break. I am not gonna be able to talk to you in a way that's really conducive to going anywhere right now, and I see you're hurting.

You know, just give me some time. I will get back to you on this." I love that. It's such a great tool. It is, and it's just great modeling, because we hope that- Mm-hmm ... one day maybe our kids will say the same thing, right? Like, "Mom, I'm getting really heated here. I'm gonna go walk around the block, and I'm gonna come back."

That's- Yeah ... you know, that would be, that would be amazing. Yeah. So. Wouldn't it? Well, my friend, thank you for a difficult conversation- Yeah ... but a necessary one, and we will be back next time with maybe a lighter episode. But, I think overall, the message of this is just, this is a 

[00:40:00] very, very serious thing that you're dealing with, and we know it can be easy to wanna sweep things under the rug, to put it off, to delay, to avoid the reaction, all the things. And it's 100% normal to feel all those things. Mm-hmm. And we really can't do that. We don't have time. No. We don't have time. We don't have time, and so just, you know, come be with us, and we will love on you, and we'll help you and take you through things step by step. Because, we know how scared this situation is, and it feels like maybe you've been in it a while, maybe it's new to you, but, you're definitely not alone, and these feelings are normal, like Brenda said. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. I will see you soon. Thanks, Cathy. See you later. Bye. Bye