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World Outreach Podcast
World Outreach Podcast
Ep. 41 Unleashing the gospel with a Missional church: A conversation with Ivan
What if there was a way to transform your church's influence in the community using a fresh perspective? Ivan, a leader from South Africa and recent graduate with a master's degree focusing on the Missional Church, enlightens us on this transformative model. With his journey moving from a local pastor to a missions leader, Ivan talks about the distinct aspects of an Attractional Church focusing on events, and a Missional Church that puts weight on the outward expression of the gospel. Taking the gospel to those who haven't heard it is not only crucial but at the heart of what mission is all about.
We journey together with Ivan into the heart of Jesus's teaching, focusing on the coexistence of the internal formation and external expression of the gospel. He shares the importance and power of demonstrating love and generosity, even to those who might not appreciate it. He also introduces us to the "model, assist, watch, and leave" approach, a practical and replicable strategy for imparting values and culture. We look beyond the local church to explore the implications and applications of the Missional Church theme to communities of unreached people groups.
Balancing the tension between local church missions and reaching unreached people groups is where things get fascinating. Ivan emphasizes the crucial role of a leader's approach in a Missional Church model. Together, we explore practical steps such as mission exposure and creating conversational spaces. We wrap up with a robust discussion on living out our testimonies, intentional outreach, and the unique ways you can activate your testimony within your sphere. This episode acts as a catalyst for a fresh perspective on the Missional Church model and its potential to empower every believer to being a witness within their community.
Resources
Migrant Ministry Starter Kit
Mission Exposure Opportunities
Didasko Online Mission Training
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You're listening to the World Outreach podcast Dynamic Conversations designed to empower our community as we engage hundreds of people, groups everywhere. Today, I'm going to be speaking with Ivan. Ivan is a leader in South Africa and he has recently finished up his master program and it wrote a thesis on the Missional Church, and so we're going to have a conversation about what is the Missional Church, why does it matter and what does it look like moving into the future, specifically giving attention to how it impacts the church in Africa. So, Ivan, thanks for having this conversation with us today.
Ivan:Thank you, Ben. It's a privilege to be with you.
Ben:So why don't you tell us right before we get into the content, and just a little bit about yourself, your background, what you do, who you are, some of your ministry experiences?
Ivan:Sure, thank you so much. So basically, I started out as a local pastor here in South Africa with one of our Pentecostal denominations, and so after a couple of years of sitting within the local church, then I felt the Lord was speaking very clearly about going more full-time into missions. And that's when I joined one of the ministries of World Outreach and we started doing short-term outreaches, and then it grew from there into more involvement with the wider body of Christ throughout Africa, but also with World Outreach until I think it was 2017. I became the South Africa director for World Outreach and then from there just ministering more and more into various parts of Africa, and basically I see myself as someone walking with ministries so that they can grow and flourish in what the Lord has called them to be A more supportive role than a frontline role, and we've seen the Lord use that to His glory.
Ben:We've seen, as you've become more involved in over the last couple of years, specifically around the area of kind of strategy and looking at the bigger picture of the African continent. What's taking place there from a mission sense. What drew you to writing your master's thesis on the Missional Church?
Ivan:I think, a couple of things. First of all, I have a deep love and respect for the church worldwide and also, more specifically, the local church, expression of the body of Christ, and so within that I've seen this dynamic of the church not really how can I say fulfilling its potential. And so then I came across the Missional Church model and I got really interested in just seeing how it can empower the body of Christ to fulfill its potential, that the local church again can almost in a sense awaken to its calling. And so, obviously, working with in Africa and in the African context, I decided to really focus in on what does the local or the Missional Church mean within the African context? And so basically that's how it developed.
Ben:So what would you say is for those listeners what is the Missional Church model? Or what are we talking about when we say Missional Church? Are all churches on mission?
Ivan:Yes, most certainly supposed to be. But basically, the Missional Church model was to a large extent in reaction to the church becoming stagnant and more focused on religious practice than fulfilling its mandate to express Christ to the world. And so, to a large extent, one of the big voices for the Missional Church was Leslie Newbigham, who was a missionary and came back to Europe and then he saw, whoa, the church isn't really living out what God intended for the church to live out, meaning expressing Christ amongst unbelievers. So the church largely became a place of just four believers among believers, two believers and not really, so not really believers to unbelievers. And so then, that the Missional concept of the church fulfilling its mandate to go out to unbelievers and then started to formulate.
Ben:So it's almost become a Christian country club then, for its own members staying within itself. And he's like, hey, that's not right. We're supposed to be out representing Christ in the world, outward focused, not inward focused in what we're doing, and so okay, yes, yes, yes, most certainly. So, as you've done, this research and stuff, why is that really important? Why does this matter, that we kind of flip the identity of the church?
Ivan:Well, I think we can just see the results, that the results in many of the countries and regions of the world where Christianity have been there for long periods of time. We see a decline in Christianity, we see a decline in the depth of just the voice of the church. We see a decline in the prophetic voice of the church. We see that people are more focused on traditions than really ministering to people and so losing our testimony. And so it's really important, I believe, for that reason, that every single member of the body of Christ, every believer, that they regain the power of their testimony, and especially amongst unbelievers, so that unbelievers can come to Christ, because the result is, at the end of the day, if we are focused just inwardly on ourselves, then that means that there are millions of people going lost and dying without the gospel, which is a tragedy in itself.
Ben:Yeah, absolutely. How would you recognize what a missional church is or what are some of the patterns to it? You mentioned an author in your thesis, Barrett, who writes about patterns of practices in the missional church and what are the distinctives behind missional churches?
Ivan:I think the easiest way for me to distinguish between a missional church and what I call an attractional church. That attractional church is just basically a church focused on the Sunday expression, the Sunday meeting, and not the outward expression, so only the event, and so so, basically, the way that I can easily distinguish between the two is the language that they use within the church. So on Sundays you will hear two types of languages. You will hear either please bring someone to next Sunday's meeting. That is an attractional church model. So everything is built around the pastor being the voice, being the celebrity. People come to see that person in action, they are touched and then their lives are changed.
Ivan:Attractional church so attract people to the building. The building is the central theme Versus. The missional church is where the building and the event is like an empowering session. It empowers people to go out and perform their mandate. So the language again that will be used in the missional expression is you know, go out and share with someone something that you've learned. With whom can you share this week? So it's all about the members fulfilling their testimony within their workplace, within their families and in their neighborhoods where they find themselves. So an easy way to spot, that is, within the language and then obviously within the leadership of the church. The leadership is flipped completely so that the pastor becomes the empowering servant of the community Versus the pastor now being the all authority person. And so those are two. You know very good distinctives that you can easily spot a missional church versus an attractional or traditional church.
Ben:Yeah, so that's really good because then, if the leadership of the church is empowering, training, equipping, which is essentially Ephesians 412, you know the apostles, you know the great, the fivefold ministry is there to equip the saints to ministry and maturity. So then you're seeing people who are now can be the salt and light of the earth, can be representing themselves within society, within their community, within their workplace, within their sports clubs or within their everything, and then Christ becomes first and then, yeah, so the church is going out to people versus hoping that people will come in to a message that most of them don't know they need. Yes, so, yeah, what has within that? Then, what has your research and the things come up with? What makes or what contributes to a missional church becoming a missional church? What are the kind of that?
Ben:You talk about eight things in your research that you did that were kind of patterns or things that were taking place in a lot of these churches, and say, hey, these kind seem to become the pillars of a missional church, and I'll just read them off to missional training and discipleship, obedience to the Great Commission, missional leadership, prayer, both in worship and community, and then every member and not just clergy, so appreciative of all believers, collaboration and partnerships with other churches and organizations, involvement with the wider community. And then for your research specifically in the Africa context, was African culture and spirituality, how those things play out into society and shaping society. Of these ones, what are these kind of key topics really stood out to you?
Ivan:on it. I think one of them that really came to the forefront within my research was the missional leadership. That was the main one, because I've noticed that these leaders, they set the culture and they set the vision for the church. I've seen some of these churches where they would speak about being missional but then the leader themselves they are not missional and then it stops right there, versus some of the churches that I interviewed where the leader was missional to their core, to their identity. Then it flows through into the rest of the community. So I saw that the leader creating those platforms for missional conversations to happen, to really make it practical for people to know how to live out their testimony within their workplaces or neighborhoods or so on. So creating those conversational platforms for people to experience what it can mean practically, contextually, within their families, and then also the leader continually being a practitioner of missions themselves. This is a very important point that I've seen within the missional leadership that flows through the rest of the congregation.
Ivan:Every leader that I've interviewed that was missional, that led missional churches, they kept on saying the same thing that first people have to see me doing it and then they will do it.
Ivan:And so doing it meaning sharing Christ, being generous, sharing themselves to the community.
Ivan:When people see the leader doing it, it's much easier for the people to do it, so that empowering role of the leader is quite important.
Ivan:And then within leadership, and specifically within the African context, it's about giving away power than holding on to power, and so in a lot of churches we see this, this thing happening within Africa, where people become so focused on titles and they become focused on their authority and all of these things. Where the mission leaders that I've interviewed, they were not focused on titles at all, they were more focused on the success was equal to the members being effective within the harvest, and I feel that is a much better approach. So mission leadership was one, and then also the other one that I found was prayer and worship, where this influenced the way that people conducted themselves within the event, within the Sunday meeting, within the church events, but also now, flowing from that, people were much more generous within the public. People were much more activated to go and share the gospel wherever they found themselves. So I would say those two were some of the main highlights that I found within my research.
Ben:Yeah, that's really interesting. I recall having a conversation with you on this area of prayer and worship, where worship and prayer becomes a meaningful like just as much as missions, and going out like the work is prayer is the work of the mission, and how much that influences people's thoughts towards their activity. And I wonder you just stated around how their hearts changed or their expressions of generosity and things started changing that with worship and prayer. What connections do you see between those, particularly in the African church of prayer is mission, but mission is also now being conveyed through prayer.
Ivan:So this is a very important aspect, because most Africans laugh to spend hours and hours in prayer and in worship.
Ivan:A lot of you will see that in a lot of African congregations people will fall asleep during the sermon, but they will be so enlivened and awakened throughout the prayer time, throughout the prayer meeting and the worship time.
Ivan:Now again, it comes back to the mission and leadership. So if the leadership then sets the tone of the prayer time to pray for the souls to be reached, people to really experience Christ, it almost it cultivates the hearts of the people. As they pray for the lost, they become, you know, they experience the love of Christ for the lost, and so then when they go from that meeting, they have that love of Christ still bubbling inside of them. So as they are praying for maybe distant countries or missionaries or those out there without the gospel, their hearts become alive, and to the lost around them as well. And so it's this wonderful dynamic of they are not just praying detached, you know, for the field, but as they pray for the field, you know, the field around them, in their immediate vicinity becomes alive to them. And so it's actually they are part of the work as they pray for the work and that's really beautiful.
Ben:And I wonder if it connects with even where Jesus's words in the in the gospel is where your treasure is there, your heart is as well, and how that might, because it's now stirring up, there's an ownership sense of it, there's all of this stuff going on that now, hey, this is actually what's really becomes important to me, because it is being modeled that way or celebrated within the community through the prayer and worship times together. And yeah, just an interesting thought, as you said, that I'm just like, oh, that's that wonder if there's that connection there in this as well. Coming back to the mission or leadership aspects of things, what I mean I think you touched on quite quickly, so I just want to unpack a couple of the ideas here around the idea of modeling and demonstrating missions to people, but also exposure to missions and exposure to the needs of as, both as a leader but then as to the community. Can you unpack that idea? How does exposure to the loss to unreached people groups or to that, how that impacts people's response to engagement?
Ivan:So I found two things and I basically I tried to summarize it within. You know saying internal formation and external expression. And so basically what happens is as the leader, as they teach and disciple, that is internal formation. But then they immediately take that same group of people and give them external expression, so they invite them to live that out, and then the leader shows them that first, so he models that behavior, he shows them how to pray for the sick, he shows them how to share the gospel with the lost, and he takes them with his own activities as he shares with the lost, and so again it comes back to that leader being the practitioner.
Ivan:But what I've seen, what was very interesting, is that these two aspects happen almost simultaneously. So, for example, many of the leaders that I interviewed, they said that they would give, for example, two hours of training, internal formation, but then immediately they would go out onto the streets and share with people that they could find, or they would immediately activate that in some way, give practical expression. So that's the external expression of it. And when those two sides of the coin, or those two aspects, when that happened together, it's like the penny dropped or the light was switched on in people's minds that, oh, this is how this works, and especially in the demonstration of the power of the gospel being generous to the poor or showing a love to someone who does not deserve or appreciate or want that love. Even then their hearts become activated because they see it in action. What was taught now they see it in action Versus.
Ivan:Some of the leaders told me that they tried to do it apart from each other. So they give internal information, but then without the external expression, and then no one did anything. Or they try to give external expression and people become frustrated with what the culture of the church and the language of the church, and so then you would find these two aspects fighting against each other when, if it happens almost simultaneously or close together with each other, then it becomes very dynamic in people being activated.
Ben:Yeah, and it makes total sense. They often say things are caught, not taught, so you can explain something to somebody until they actually do it or experience them themselves. They don't actually catch it and if you're wanting to impart DNA and values and culture, they need to go alongside and see. In the church finding world. We often talk about model assist, watch and leave. So we demonstrate what's going and we help someone do it, and then we come along them and watch them, do it and coach them and help them and then we leave them in the sense like now you're on, you can do it, but we'll stay in contact and in connection with them, but not leave, leave abandon. But hey, they're on their own, they can run and do this, and so that's that empowering side of things and which I think is what we see.
Ben:A lot of Jesus is training with the disciples. They saw him heal the sick and he would talk about it with them and then he'd send them out to go and do it themselves and it was just kind of like this building discipleship process. So it is internal formation and external expression. I really like that. That's a that's huge too. I think seeing the excess of that Were there things within that training or those types of trainings that also built on this or helped them. So, like the difference between that missional training maybe an inter discipleship or personal discipleship was that are they connected or they disconnected, you know, or they just build on one another?
Ivan:I think that's the interesting thing. The training is not necessarily very different from each other, but it's. It's when you link these two aspects together. So, for example, living from identity in Christ. You will find that almost in every church around the world professing that Jesus is the only way to the Father, you will find that type of training. But, however a lot of churches they lack in the external expression of that, and then that is where it falls flat, and then it becomes self-centered and self-focused and it almost becomes motivational rather than living from the identity in Christ. And so the training, like I say, is there.
Ivan:The training is more or less the same in all churches Generosity, worshiping Christ, serving your family All of those fundamental aspects that we almost see in every church is there, but with the external expression. And it was very interesting, just speaking about generosity, that even in some of the poorest of churches that I've interviewed, the leader continually said that it's so important that people see him being generous, and so, again, the modeling aspect of that is so important. When he is generous and gives to the poor, then people will give, even out of their poverty, they will share and be generous with others as well.
Ben:That's so good, and just backing things up with your words and your deeds match, and so there's integrity and there's that alignment, and so there's authenticity to what the preacher is saying or the church leader is saying, and now people like it brings people to live. I think, as well as we talk about this, just like because they can see it, not just words, you know, not just do as I say, but do as I do as well, and so they have someone to follow in that I want to switch gears just a little bit in our conversation. So, the local church, local community, reaching out to the local community, which is major themes of the Missional Church, but since we're a mission organization focused on unreached people groups, my question is how does unreached people groups fit into this local church and community of the Missional Church theme?
Ivan:So this has been a very interesting dynamic that I've noticed as I've done research on the Missional Church Is that this is one aspect that, if not being intentional, it does become a distant memory. And so what do I mean by that? It's basically the Missional model. The Missional Church model focuses on activating the testimony of every believer within the church community to be a witness in the community. Now, obedience to the Great Commission and all of that it basically what the Missional Church model says is it's, when we look at the Greek, the Esnei. It means all people, and so it's an inclusive language that they use within the Missional Church model.
Ivan:However, it's not a strategic approach to finishing the task, so they are more occupied with activating people for the task than finishing the task strategically, and so what I have observed in many of these congregations is that they will almost become how can I say? Distanced from finishing the task in terms of the unreached people groups. So the focus will be why go far away when you can reach your neighbour? Why spend all of this money to go to that people group that you don't know the language, the God, etc. And then just be Missional and serve Jesus in your local vicinity? And so there is a little bit of attention in that that some of these leaders that were focusing on the unreached they were very intentional and they had knowledge and they had understanding of the unreached and then that brought that dynamic in. But some of these local expressions and churches that did not have that experience or exposure to the unreached, they did not have any interest in that, they were just focused on their local community.
Ben:So what do you say is a lot of things, that it is not yes and or no, or this, and that is kind of a combination of two. So how do we balance out this tension then of making sure unreached people groups, because if nobody goes to them they will remain unreached and there will still be no access to the gospel for these people and so we're falling short of obeying God in the Great Commission. And if we just stay local, obviously that continues and there's still huge value in staying local and doing the local church and ministering to those people. How do we balance these two tensions out?
Ivan:So, basically, what I've seen, I can speak about those who have done it successfully, so how they have done it, again, it comes back to the leader.
Ivan:What I've seen, what these leaders do, is they are very intentional in inviting missionaries that work amongst the unreached people group to speak at their churches.
Ivan:They have specific times in the year where they have a focus on the unreached. They, within their times of prayer, they pray for their local, immediate vicinity where they are lost, but then they would also have specific fields of interest and it was interesting to see that some congregations they were more focused on children, some congregations were more focused on specific religious groups, blocks around the world, but it was again praying and focusing on that specific aspect of the unreached, and so it comes back to that setting the culture, the language and also visibility. This was very important. What I've seen is being visible, using creativity, within your church buildings so that people can see and be reminded of the unreached within the church, communication and bulletins being reminded of the unreached, and then also from the pulpit this was one of the most important aspects of the communication from the pulpit to keep on reminding the congregation of the unreached. And so again, it comes back to the leader setting the tone for that balance within the congregation.
Ben:Yeah, that sounds good and I think that's what we see. You know Acts one where it says but you will see power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth. It's not then, then then it's and, and, and. So we can do both of these Now. We can be a witness in our own Jerusalem, but we can also be a witness with others, to the ends of the earth or out of regions. And, as you said, setting that tone, setting that expectation as a community is like hey, these are the things that we do, that the leadership of team can, can do as a whole. So what would you give as advice to other church leaders or other people who are considering about missions and the church model and missions model? What would you advise them? How would you help them set their course off? Well, let's say that Excellent.
Ivan:Yeah, I think it's a couple of very practical things. I think we sometimes we overthink it. You know we have so many meetings that we become lost in all of these thinking, but it's super practical. Basically, the first thing that I would say for any leader is be exposed themselves. So if they don't have a mission or background, go and join, you know, a short term trip or visit the ministry or just go and see what is happening in the field.
Ivan:I've seen this time and time again when leaders, they can just go on one outreach, their lives are transformed and so it's so important for them to be exposed to ministry outside of the church building, outside of their culture, so cross-culturally being exposed to missions.
Ivan:And then obviously, it would be wonderful if they can go as far as the Unreach People groups. So that would be the first one. But the second one that I've seen within my research that has been found very effective is starting conversations, creating platform within the congregation to have conversations about what does it mean for us as a congregation to express ourselves, you know, as Christians in the community, within government, within the arts, within business. Just have people, you know, start those conversations and then, as people, have those conversations, then ideas and passion is unlocked and people then get activated, because we sometimes forget that the Holy Spirit is working with us within all of this. So we don't have to stress about, you know, getting the people to do something, but rather within those conversations the Holy Spirit is present and the Holy Spirit will activate people. So those two things the leader be exposed themselves and then, secondly, just create those platforms for conversation and out of that activity, will start to happen.
Ben:Yeah, that sounds great and it sounds very practical themselves. Right, those are easy things that someone can do to pursue this. It doesn't have to be over complicated. As you just said, Listener, if you would like to hear about some short term trips that World Outreach has, you can go to our website and under the Go opportunities. There's a webpage there that lists up some short term opportunities. If you need some ideas on what to do or where to go and how to get involved, get some exposure into this, Yvonne. Any final words of encouragement or for closing?
Ivan:Yeah, I think you know just what I'm seeing within Africa context that I'm working in a lot is that the Lord is busy preparing the harvest. You know, I think the Lord has been busy for a long time preparing people's hearts and minds for the church, just to reap what God has been doing in so many faithful men and women over the years. And so when we do step out in faith, god is faithful to use that small activity, whatever it can be, to reach the lost. So I think you know just to be excited with what God is doing and excited for what God can do through us. Even small congregations that I've seen are missional and making a huge impact for the Lord. It's not about the quantity and the bigness and the you know the events, but it's rather about just living out that testimony that Christ has given each one of us to live out.
Ben:And I think we can do that. It's practical. We can live out our testimonies in our community that we're at and then hopefully it will go out to unreached people groups as well, as we are strategic and intentional about doing that. That's good, but you want to thank you for your time today, really appreciate this conversation. I think it's given us some things to think about, some ideas to consider and some practical steps to implement in our own ministry. So, listener, I hope you are encouraged in this.
Ben:If you would like some more information about the missional church and those things, you can look on our website. I will have some information there and I'll have a link in the show notes on that. Also, always engage with your own. My community who's are usually unreached people groups who are living right amongst you, so there's resources there. But otherwise I encourage you to ask God how can you demonstrate your testimony to Him, commitment to Him, in your community? Now, if you have any thoughts on this podcast or any feedback force, send us some email. The email is in the show notes and please do share this conversation with other people. That's the best way for getting it out and people to learn more about what God is doing the world through missions, and let's continue to make disciples among unreached people groups everywhere.