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World Outreach Podcast
World Outreach Podcast
EP 45 Embracing the Spirit's Power: A Journey of Faith, Transformation, and Kingdom Risks with Abe
Have you ever encountered a moment that completely redirects the course of your life? Abe, a former South African pastor turned ministry leader in Southeast Asia, experienced just that—a profound shift following an encounter with the Holy Spirit. Our conversation unveils Abe's journey through challenges and triumphs as he served communities during the pandemic, witnessing miracles of healing and transformation. This episode is a testament to the vibrant continuation of early church practices in modern-day missionary work.
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you're listening to the world outreach podcast dynamic conversations designed to empower our community as we engage unreached people groups everywhere. Today, we have abe joining us. Abe resides in southeast asia and he's been working with movements, with, amongst mbbs, and really focusing on the area of the holy spirit and how the Holy Spirit empowers movement. So, abe, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. We're excited to learn about your journey into this area.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I'm excited as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so before we jump into our discussion topic today, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your family and how you got into ministry?
Speaker 2:My parents, immigrated from Germany before I was born, so I was born and raised in South Africa. I am married to a lovely South African farm girl. We have two children Our oldest is a daughter and the younger is a son. They are both young adults. Our son just finished school last year and is overseas at the moment. So both our children are out of the house and we are empty nesters. How did I get into ministry? When I was 17 years old, I was born again, and after that, really soon after that, I felt the Lord leading me to study theology. After that, I worked at a church for 17 years. Then, in 2010, I had a powerful encounter with the Holy Spirit and received my calling to Southeast Asia, to a specific nation in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1:So that's great. So you had this journey from being in the church world getting called into the missions world. That was about 10 years ago. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do now in Southeast Asia?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've been in Southeast Asia about 10 years now. I'm not going to share all the 10 years. So we've been in Southeast Asia about 10 years now. I'm not going to share all the 10 years.
Speaker 2:In the beginning of the pandemic we had opportunities to hand out a lot of food parcels in the nearby villages and build relationships, and at every opportunity, every house we actually asked who can we pray for and is there anybody that's sick that we can pray for? And it was amazing how the Lord it was just very faithful. We saw many, many answers to prayer, many healings. Maybe a good time just to share one.
Speaker 2:I might want to share some more later, but at one of these occasions, my wife and some other ladies, I was asked to pray for somebody, a person dying. He didn't even want to open his eyes anymore. They were asking him if there's anything that he wants to be forgiven for. When they prayed for him they felt nothing happened and they were like kind of concerned that he wasn't going to live much longer. But when they came outside, his son that they had already built a relationship with was sitting outside and he'd already heard about Jesus and he said but he realizes it's only God that can heal his father. And he realizes that it's not about good works and religion, but really just only God that can forgive his sins. And would God forgive his sins? And they told him well, god has already forgiven your sins, god has already paid for your sins, and if you receive it so that they led him to the Lord, my wife told me later she felt that if it was just for this guy opening up, it was amazing.
Speaker 2:But the funny thing was that a while later they heard that this father of his that was so sick was back at work and had been totally healed as well. So in the moment nothing happened, but afterwards they got the testimony that the Lord really showed up in an amazing way. Wow, that's amazing. So we've tried to follow them up. Some are easy to follow up, others are harder. So the last year, last year, something shifted in my focus. I've become involved in an internship program where we are most of them are Bible college fifth semester students are doing their practical semester. They have come to us and it's a team of locals and experts that are part of this internship program that are training, and the one focus is on teaching them how to work contextually with the cousins around us, and the other focus is on helping them be strong Christians that are equipped to live healthy Christian lives but also to flow in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:So just to help maybe, if people aren't aware, with Cousins we're talking about the majority faith of that community there, so that these young students or the people coming out of Bible Scholes, they're being equipped with both practical and theological training. So the theological training and stuff to empower them to live righteous lives, to be discipled, but also practical ministry experience to help them engage cross righteous lives to be discipled, but also practical ministry experience to help them engage cross-culturally to bring the gospel to the majority faith of this nation that you're working in. So it's a very practical training and very necessary training because of bridges of culture that have to be crossed to be able to effectively share the gospel with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. That's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you've been involved in this, you're working on this and you have been really focused on a life of a Spirit-empowered believer. What do you mean by that, or what does it mean to be a Spirit-empowered believer in this context?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, if we look at the book of Acts, sort of living like they lived in the book of Acts, just following Jesus, obeying Jesus, receiving the Holy Spirit flowing with him. I read a quote from Bill Johnson a while ago that really, I think, touched me. The quote goes like this Jesus was extremely practical. But practical for Jesus is different from being practical for us. Our idea of practical is training dogs to help the blind. Jesus' idea of practical was healing the blind, and that just shows that total mind shift that we often have. Is we, yeah, and that Jesus sort of commissioned us to invade the impossible, to really partner with him and step out and do things that would be impossible humanly but with the Holy Spirit are and which actually is bringing the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1:You're looking at it like so. If we're spirit empowered, if we're believing what we see in the book of Acts, if we believe in what Jesus commanded us to go do Luke 10, matthew 10, go out, heal the sick, cast out demons, proclaim the gospel. You're working to train people in that. What does that look like practically, then?
Speaker 2:Do you mind if I lay a little foundation first? Sure, let's do it. I've seen there are two happenings in my own life probably, but also in other people's lives. And in the Bible in John 20, verse 21 to 22, we see Jesus had already raised from the dead but he was still on earth and he said to his disciples in verse 22, he breathed on them and he said receive the Holy Spirit. So they received the Holy Spirit in John. Well, in John and then in Acts we see that he tells them I want you guys to come together because I want to release the promise. I've found other verses that sort of fit together with that, the promise. I've found other verses that sort of fit together with that.
Speaker 2:Ephesians 1, verse 13 says in him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. So this is sort of a sealing in the heart at conversion. I mean 2 Corinthians 1, verse 21,. 22 says a similar thing. It says has put his seal on us and given us his Holy Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. And if we carry on into Acts, we now see that Jesus says to them again Wait for me, for the promise of the Holy Spirit, acts 1, 4 and 5. And then you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. So that is in the Bible. We see it as a second thing that happens. We also see that John the Baptist spoke about this and said Matthew 3, 11 and Luke 3, 16, it says he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Yeah, let me jump on.
Speaker 2:Let me go on into the verses themselves. In Acts 2, verse 17, Peter explains this and he says and it shall come to pass. In the last days says God that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions. Your old men shall see dreams. And Peter is explaining what was prophesied in Joel 2, verse 28, and which had just happened.
Speaker 2:In Acts 2, where they were filled. And in Acts 1, verse 8, we see that the purpose of that filling was for us to have power, to become witnesses. And then in Acts 2, verse 4, it says that they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Holy Spirit gave them utterance. So this was the filling of the Holy Spirit. I want to differentiate between the sealing of the heart at conversion, where the Holy Spirit comes into our lives, and then the filling with power, or the mantle of power that comes upon the believers. And I think a classic example in the Bible is Peter before the cross and Peter after being filled with the Holy Spirit. Just the total shift in confidence that he has to witness.
Speaker 1:The Holy Spirit coming, giving a mantle authority to carry out the commands that Jesus gave through the disciples. We see that being carried out through the book of Acts and to many people within the book of Acts, both elders and deacons and faithful men and women who are following Jesus and they're doing exploits in his name. You know miracles, signs and wonders, healings, all of those types of things. So when you think about that and you're talking about trying to model, live a lifestyle, the book of Acts as we saw it in today's world, what does that look like for people to move forward in?
Speaker 2:I think it's a journey. I think it's just really taking the book of Acts for what it says and saying, well, I want to live a biblical, Christ-like lifestyle and really just yeah, a journey in walking into that and reading the word and saying, well, Lord, I want to do that as well.
Speaker 1:So you want to do that as well. You want to do it. So what has been the key for you and those that you have been training to begin seeing those things take place?
Speaker 2:I think, as I said, taking the Bible for what it says and then stepping out in faith and practicing, so in a way getting taught and in a way stepping out in risk, in faith and seeing other people pray for the sick and it happening and then doing it yourselves. We've seen a lot more happening when we're in the villages praying for the sick than when we're just in our classroom set up or whatever.
Speaker 1:What does that look like, then? From helping people take the transformation of head knowledge out to faith, activating faith in themselves to believe that they will step out and then actually praying with people and seeing healed. What's been important in that, what's helped move people forward in?
Speaker 2:that, I think, seeing it themselves partnering with somebody that has gone out and prayed, and seeing it themselves and then stepping out in faith and saying, lord, I trust you, I'm going to do what you show me in the Bible and I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1:So we've talked about this area of reading the Bible, believing in faith, watching other people doing it, stepping out into doing it yourselves, what's generally misunderstood when speaking about the Spirit-empowered lifestyle, I can think of two areas.
Speaker 2:Empowered lifestyle. I can think of two areas. I think the one would be to say well, what happened in Acts is for then and not necessarily for today. I think there's a group of people that I've met that are very willing to talk about it but very hesitant to step out and do it, and in that category also falls the thing of Lord. If it is your will, I pray that this person be healed and I think on that misunderstanding I would say that healing and the demonstration of the power of spirits are essential to support the authenticity of the Bible. In the Lord's Prayer we see that one of the sections is as it is in heaven, so be it on earth, and that, I think, can very definitely be applied to the power of the Holy Spirit and healing and all those things as well. So if we see what, if we think what does heaven look like and how should that be on earth, then we can say Lord, we want to claim these words. I also see in 1 Corinthians, 2, verse 4, where Paul speaks to the Corinthians and says my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom but in the demonstration of the spirit of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. So not just rest on teaching, but really rest on the Holy Spirit. Think, if we take the power of God out of the Bible, it doesn't have the same value. So we need to keep the power of God in our Christian life. So the power of God is really important in our Christian life and that the manifestation of the power of God is vital to just the authenticity of the gospel. So that would be the first one.
Speaker 2:A second misunderstanding that I've found is around the whole topic of tongues. So in Mark 16, it says and these will follow those who believe In my name, they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues I think you mentioned that just earlier. And all through Acts and maybe let me just read Acts 19, verse 6 as well and when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. So this is way into Acts. Already In the Bible it seems like tongues was meant to be a normal thing for every believer. And with that I maybe need to clarify one thing that when I look at the Bible I see three types of Holy Spirit tongues. The one type would be tongues of a foreign human language. So in Acts, right in the beginning, we see them saying that the Cretans and the Arabs heard them speaking in their own language about the wonderful works of God. So one form of tongues is the person speaking in a language that he doesn't know, but it is a normal human language.
Speaker 2:The second form of tongues that I see in the Bible is the tongues used in public meeting, which we see in 1 Corinthians 12, verse 10, speaking about tongues and interpretation, and that is specifically for a meeting place. It's similar to prophecy, so one person speaks in foreign tongue and then somebody interprets that, and there's a lot about the order and how this needs to be done in 1 Corinthians 14. But then we see a third type of tongue which, as I said earlier, seems to be for every believer, and this is a tongue in Jude 1, verse 20. It says is a tongue in Jude 1, verse 20. It says but you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit. So this is a praying in the Holy Spirit with the purpose of building yourself. 1 Corinthians 14, verse 4, also says, the one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself. After that he speaks about prophecy having a different purpose, but the tongue has the purpose of building up yourself With this.
Speaker 2:I actually just recently heard an amazing testimony from Jackie Pullinger that shared that she was prayed for the filling of the Holy Spirit, received tongues and felt really stupid about it and said well, this tongue is weird, this is stupid.
Speaker 2:She doesn't understand this. And for a whole year she sort of was unsure and in a way, didn't speak in tongues much. And then I met some other people working in Hong Kong and they said to her Jackie, you need to speak in tongues every day for 15 minutes. And the guy that was interviewing her on this said but did you see any change happen after you were speaking in tongues every day? And she said well, about six weeks later it wasn't that her Chinese had improved, but people were suddenly open and ready to receive the gospel and give their lives to the Lord. She was suddenly at the right place at the right time to meet somebody that was open. She said that there was a real change in her life and how things was putting things. God was putting things in place in a different way as she started doing this more and more. So I really feel there's a high value in speaking in tongues, for everybody.
Speaker 1:Those are two areas that are often misunderstood in your mind. There's the idea of doing signs and wonders, being empowered, being called by God to do it, but also speaking in tongues, working with the Holy Spirit, empowering ourselves by communicating with him and being with him, which I think is really interesting, because one of the things that I love about Paul, which you mentioned, his Corinthians one, but in Romans he says and I preach the gospel both in word and in deed. So it was a bringing up together of these things, of who he is. So there was a full proclamation of the gospel. So, with that in mind, the idea of being in communion with the Holy Spirit, filled with the Holy Spirit, doing signs and wonders, but also verbally communicating the gospel and stuff what are you seeing in the area of movements and how partnering or aligning ourselves with the Holy Spirit is bringing about works in movements, and particularly amongst MBBs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that is a very exciting, exciting question and I think that is probably a surface where I can share a few testimonies. Yeah, please do. In Southeast Asia we started off on an island and my wife went out with one of the local workers and they started praying for the sick and one person got healed and they were taken to the next person and the second person got healed and it was just a chain reaction. They were taken to the village leader and for three or four days they just kept on going into the village and really the Lord in a way village, and really the Lord in a way, opened hearts. Also, with the food packages we saw that the food package opens doors, the food packages open doors, but the manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit, like healing or similar things, opened the hearts for the people to receive. Yeah, so we had another chain reaction here.
Speaker 2:While in the pandemic time we were going around and were asked to pray for a person that was really sick and we went in and he was lying there, didn't move, didn't open his eyes, anything. One of our co-workers jokingly says well, he didn't have the courage to pray. He said this guy was going to die within a day or two and he didn't want to have that as a result of his prayer. But anyway, my wife is very courageous with these things and I joined her to pray for this old man. Well, in the moment nothing happened. We left, but when we came back a week later we were taken to this house again and he was sitting upright in his sitting room and we were able to share with him and, as a result, one of the neighbor's ladies said that she has a knee that is really painful and we prayed for her and she has probably become one of our most excited believers. She is passionate and has had encounters with Jesus and things like that, starting with a miracle of her knee. This then spilled over into another village where the son of this elderly man he was the village leader, or is the village leader of this village and we went to visit him and we prayed for him and he experienced healing and then he was sort of our guide and he took us to all the sick people in his village and we just for weeks we were praying for everybody he could think of and saw some amazing things. So that was really great, with testimonies and what happens.
Speaker 2:It's often funny how we are challenged to lose faith when nothing happens when we pray. But actually I've come to believe that something happens every time we pray. We might just not see it.
Speaker 2:One of our co-workers a while ago went back into a village that she had ministered in earlier and she had formed a little group there that she shares Bible stories with. And she was sharing with them the story of the blind man and just going through like a Bible study with them and one of them said but we had something similar like that happen in our village a few months ago. They were like kind of surprised. She like kind of surprised. She was kind of surprised and said, wow, what happened? After hearing the story she realized that about a year earlier she had been going around giving food parcels and was asked to pray for a lady that was blind, prayed for her and never realized that this was the lady that had been healed in a process after that and that amazing healing had happened and yeah. So it's really exciting what the Lord does in the villages and opens hearts, exciting to follow up on that and see them grow in the Lord.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the signs and wonders tend to open up opportunities to share the gospel, for them to grow and stuff.
Speaker 1:It's like it's a catching of and, in particular, what we've noticed is highly important in areas where people are needing to shift their allegiance to a different God or a different faith, that they need to see that the God that they're going to shift to is actually more powerful than the spirits that they're interacting with already on a daily basis or that's controlling their worldview and stuff interacting with already on a daily basis or what that's controlling their worldview and stuff. So these signs and wonders tend to open up opportunities, um, for the faith, for the gospel to go out. Or you're talking about, you know, creating discipleship groups, um, dbs discovery, bible study groups and forming these as as part and parcel with the proclamation of the gospel and signs and wonders that they're going together to follow through. So it's not just about seeing signs and wonders take place. It's about signs and wonders as a way for people to encounter God and to begin to move into a relationship with Him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really just to say that this is not just a God of a book, but a real God that is much bigger than his book.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when you think about that, why is it important to disciple new believers into this relationship with the Holy Spirit right at the beginning?
Speaker 2:I think, as we just said, so that they really learn about the fullness of God and that I think on a personal level, that he is their comforter, that he gives them power to overcome and wisdom and everything that we read about that is part of what the Holy Spirit does. And then also for them to know that there, yeah, this is real, this is not just theory in a book, this is really real and we can take this and this happens and we yeah, we're serving a living God, a powerful God.
Speaker 1:Powerful, living God, absolutely. What practical advice would you give people who want to grow in this area and or disciple others into this area?
Speaker 2:I think, to disciple others into this area is to live it out yourself, to really say God, I'm going to step out in this and I'm going to those people that I'm leading in my DBS. I'm going to say well, this is what the word says, let's go do it. Let's go take the word for what it says and so really practice it and then live it out yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, practice it and live it out yourself. That's great advice. So practicing it, living it out yourself, what would that look like in a very practical sense? What would you encourage someone to do? I think it's a journey.
Speaker 2:It's really praying for somebody. And then the challenge is to not necessarily believe what your experience was if nothing happened, but to really say, well, I'm not was if nothing happened, but to really say, well, I'm not sure why nothing happened. I did what the bible said and I'm going to continue doing what the bible said. Some people I've heard people say well, I prayed for a hundred people and they all died, and the hundred and first person was raised from the dead you know that that was my experience.
Speaker 1:Not I haven't raised anybody from the dead, but I prayed for years and years for the sick and those types of things. I never saw anything happen, like when I prayed. When other people prayed saw stuff happen, but not necessarily when I was doing it. Maybe after 10 or 12 years of just praying and praying and continuing to pray, one day everything just shifted and I was working with a guy who definitely had like a gift of miracles on his life. You know gifts of signs and wonders. It's a spiritual gift. And we were praying, we were doing a healing seminar and he said tonight because he normally led these healing seminars like tonight you're leading it. And so I'm like, okay, I haven't really seen this happen ever, but I'll step out and do it. And that night we saw so many people get healed and then, from that stage forward, continue to saw people getting healed as we were doing church planting in this, in this area, and it really opened up.
Speaker 1:But it was a matter of 10, 12 years maybe, maybe even longer, praying regularly to see people healed and not seeing it take place in my own, my own life and stuff like that. But now we see it and we begin to believe it, but sometimes it's just a shift. But I think it's also waiting on the Holy Spirit. But continue, as you said in your own story of stepping out, and even continue to step out when we don't see it taking place and we continue to journey in faith and then one day we do see it. But quite a few of the stories that you just shared earlier, you didn't see the healing in the moment, but you went back a week later, or you go back six months later and something shifted and it shifted in that person's life without us even knowing about it. I always think that's really interesting how God often will move, even in spite of us or in the absence of us. So it's a partnering with him because he's doing his part. We're doing our part in this relationship as we proclaim the gospel.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely a partnering, and I think things like that often happen. So I don't get too overconfident and say but it's me healing the people, because it's not, it's really the Holy Spirit, and whether he chooses to do it while I'm there or afterwards, that is what I just need to say Thank you, lord, you're doing something. I'm not sure what you're doing, but you're doing something.
Speaker 1:But it's a willingness on our part to engage with him and to follow in obedience with him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and intentional as well. I was going to ask you earlier if there was anything that caused that shift 12 years afterwards.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you want to. I don't think there, I don't know if you want to, I don't think there, I don't know. Maybe an intentionality, as you're just saying, but it was also a huge faith moment because we're now standing in much. We were doing a healing service amongst a hundred people who are unbelievers and were there to proclaim that the gospel is true and real. And you know, and God showed up, you know so.
Speaker 2:I think that thing that they say faith is spelled R-I-S-K is a big thing, they say faith is spelled r-i-s-k. Yeah is a big thing. Yeah, um, and and that god honors those times and says but I am going to show up in power and I honor your faith and you're stepping out in risk and and often it's stepping across the risk line, and then we see things happen absolutely so.
Speaker 1:Just as a final word of encouragement for people, any, any advice or um words to close us with yeah, I think, stay thirsty, stay hungry for more, keep pressing in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I. As it's closing, I want to share a a dream that my wife had a while ago, which encouraged me and her and we've actually shared with people and, um, she, she dreamt that she was, it was at a banquet and there was this big table with all the most delicious foods that you could think of on this table, but on the side of the table there was a sort of a row of dried rice all along the side of the table. And she saw the guests coming in and the guests were blindfolded and they had their hands tied behind their back and and they were like trying to find the food and all they could reach was this dried rice and they were like eating this dried rice with their hands behind their back. And when my wife woke up, um, she said, lord, this is a confusing dream. I really don't understand what this means.
Speaker 2:And, and as she prayed, the Lord showed her that the kingdom banquet is there, all that the Holy Spirit brings and who he is, and everything that we see in Acts is this fullness of God that the kingdom has. We need to help people to take off the blindfolds and to get their hands untied so that they can really enjoy the fullness of what Jesus paid for on the cross and what he released as the Holy Spirit was released on all of us. So yeah, just stepping into more of what the kingdom is and more of what Jesus has paid.
Speaker 1:Thank you for taking the time to share with us some of the stories and journey, growing in faith in the Holy Spirit stepping out and seeing the kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. I'm sure we've all been encouraged by these stories, by these testimonies and by just a reminder to continue to journey with them, to take risk for the kingdom and to expect God to move as we proclaim the gospel. So thank you for your time today. Thank you, it was a privilege. I enjoyed it, Hi listener. I hope you for your time today. Thank you, it was a privilege, I enjoyed it, Hi listener.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed this episode today, hearing testimonies how the Holy Spirit is working and moving and how we can grow in our partnership with him for the expansion of the gospel amongst Unreached People Group. As always, we'd like to hear from you. Please email us with your comments, feedback and topics you would be interested in learning more about as it relates to missions to unreached people groups. The contact details are in the show notes. Please also consider subscribing to the podcast and sharing this episode with others. Let's keep making disciples of unreached people groups everywhere.