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World Outreach Podcast
World Outreach Podcast
EP 57 Risk, Suffering, And Calling: A Conversation with Louise
What if faithfulness sometimes looks like stepping back from danger? Our guest, Louise from South Africa, invites us into a brave, honest look at suffering, risk, and the mission of God. After serving in the Middle East and enduring a kidnapping that took her husband’s life, she brings a rare mix of lived experience, biblical depth, and practical wisdom that equips workers and churches to serve wisely among unreached peoples.
We start by separating two often-confused ideas: the theology of suffering all Christians should expect, and the theology of risk that fits beneath it. Louise walks us through Scriptures that frame risk as a spectrum, then shows how discernment governs when we move toward threat and when we withdraw. With stories of Paul’s escape, Jesus’ timing, and Joseph’s flight, she dismantles the myth that courage always charges forward. The anchor points are simple and strong: God is sovereign, he selects and directs, and our aim is worship.
From there, we get concrete. Spiritual formation comes first, not as a slogan but as the well that feeds everything else. Louise shares how daily intimacy with Jesus quietly led her family to take life-saving steps before crisis struck—from legal documents for their kids to scenario planning and training. We map out practical considerations for teams and families: identity risks tied to nationality and gender, local hazard profiles, duty of care, and the power of shared vocabulary around risk and crisis. You’ll hear specific resources for next steps, including entry-level risk assessment workshops, deeper crisis management training, and interrogation resilience tools that lower stress and extend longevity.
The conversation widens to hope. The early church’s hardships mirror today’s persecuted communities, yet redemption runs through the story even when outcomes are hidden. We talk about trusting God’s unseen work, resisting performative sacrifice, and holding a long view shaped by Revelation’s promise of every tribe and tongue before the throne. If you’re preparing to go, sending others, or leading an organization, this episode offers a grounded path: love Jesus first, let the Spirit direct your posture toward risk, and prepare well so your presence can last and your witness can shine.
If this resonates, share it with a teammate or leader, subscribe for more thoughtful conversations, and leave a review to help others find the show. What’s one step you’ll take this week to deepen your preparation and your prayer?
Resources:
Crisis Consulting International
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You're listening to the World Libraries Podcast, dynamic conversations, designed to empower community as you engage unreached people groups everywhere. Today I'm speaking with Louise from South Africa. She's gonna share some insights into what it means to look at risk and missions and how they interact and the tension there and why it's important for missionaries to go out well prepared in this um topic and understanding what needs to be done. So Luis, thanks for joining us on the podcast today.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to join you.
SPEAKER_01:So as we get to started, would you just give us a little bit of background, um, your experience in missions and how this topic is important to you?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Um, yeah, we as a family we lived and served in uh the Middle East region for a couple of years. Um and then uh unfortunately our time there was ended by a kidnapping um of myself and my husband, uh, which unfortunately then also ended with my husband being killed. But um all of that said, we we we live back now in South Africa and my children and myself, and we uh started a nonprofit organization uh doing various things in the humanitarian space, but also serving the wider faith-based um worker communities just with equipping, encouraging as they serve uh in this in this specific season that we find ourselves in in the world with the unreach people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you for sharing that and your experience is a lived one, so you speak from both the experience side of things, but then also ongoing research and um knowledge in the arena in this area. Yeah, and so we really appreciate the sacrifice that you have made for the kingdom and uh this journey that you've been on and how you've helping others in it. Um, this idea of suffering, um, theology of suffering or the presence of risk uh within missions, not necessarily a new topic. You know, the scripture is full of um stories of persecution. And uh one of the books that I've read in this area, um, Facing Fear by Anna Hampton, I thought it was a very good one. But one of the things that she expresses there is that uh the experience of persecution is contextual, but the presence of persecution is universal. And this idea that all people will at one level face persecution and suffering as a follower of Jesus. What is your understanding, or how how do you express this idea of a biblical basis for suffering and risk within the kingdom of God?
SPEAKER_00:That's um such a good question, uh Ben. And yeah, I can really recommend Anna Adams' book. Um, she's also written a follow-up on that one just for interest's sake. Um but yes, we talk about uh suffering, theology of suffering, theology of risk. I think what's important is that we distinguish between the two, uh, because we often get them confused, or we we might think it's the same thing. But as you rightly said, all believers um will experience some kind of whether that's persecution or suffering. Um, and that's really because the word, the scriptures talk about that. Now, you know, in our experience in the past, we were never so much exposed to the teaching of the theology of suffering. Um, I think it's it's maybe something that the church isn't always uh stepped into because it's not like the topic that you're gonna really unpack while you're having a barbecue or putting a magnet on your fridge saying we will all suffer, you know. Uh you it's something we want to avoid. But actually, the scriptures really talk about suffering as followers of Christ. And I'm just thinking of one scripture which was very pertinent in our lives, one that was very close to my husband as well. It's Philippians 1 verse 29, where he talks about um as followers of Christ, you will not only have the privilege of following him, but also suffering for him. And I think of 1 Peter 4, which is filled with all kinds of scriptures on suffering. But he mentions that we are partakers of the suffering of Christ, and we shouldn't be surprised that that this will happen to us. So that is it's theology of suffering is actually part of being a follower of Jesus, and all believers will in some way or another experience suffering. But then theology of risk falls under that. It's not it's not um something that we've often talked about, and we're actually just learning now that it's very biblical. The theology of risk falls under that almost umbrella of the theology of suffering. And there are different scriptures that unpacks the whole topic of risk, um, and just also learning from or leaning on to um Anna Hampton's book, where she talks about those definitions of risk, but three scriptures that she mentions that just give us a bit of a guideline of risk and what does the words say about risk is um Philippians 2 verse 29 to 30, um, which uses the word risk, and there the word is used as a way to give over your life, and then even one step up from that, Romans 16, verse 3 to 4, where he talks about betting one's life on it and staking your life. So you you get this progression of the word risk in in the Bible, um, where it's um just a normal, you know, giving over and then betting one's life and going the next step, staking one's life on it. So risk is definitely a topic in the Bible. It's just recently that we've been more become aware more of it and um understanding that we should actually understand what the word is telling us about risk and how to go about thinking about it and applying it in our in our um lives as followers of Christ.
SPEAKER_01:That's really uh interesting, I guess. You know, with this idea of the distinction between the two, and I really like that idea of staking your life on this. And for many, answering a call in as a follower of Jesus in many places of the world, there is a high risk element to it. There is a moment of if I make this commitment, I am staking my whole life on this, whether it's both their their physical life and and well-being, but also their community and their society, and how will people receive them further? Yeah, how do you see these two um sides? Are you you call suffering the umbrella one and risk underneath it? How do you see these kind of working out the tension that they play within followers of Jesus answering a call to missions?
SPEAKER_00:I think the managing of that tension, it's a good way of putting it because it is a tension. Um, and it's it's almost approached from that posture of um discerning, hearing from the Lord the whole time. Um, I think in the past we might have leaned more towards in mission specifically, towards always just saying that risk must be followed, because um that's almost the picture that we've been given. Um, if you're a follower of Christ, you will always go into risk. But I think we've learned that sometimes drawing away from a risk or drawing away from a danger can also be godly, it can also be Holy Spirit-led. And just, you know, I'm reminded of times when we've presented our risk assessment management workshops where the relief on the faces of people that have been in missions but had to be taken out of that specific environment that they were in, that relief for them to understand that actually moving away from danger can also be Holy Spirit-led. And it also is part of being a follower of Christ. You're not, you haven't deserted your faith, you haven't um forsaken your calling. But there's so much pressure on missions and on people in missions that we must just always go into danger because that could be the only way that we can please God or or be faithful to our calling. But just to see the relief, just that lifting off of the guilt of people that have really, really felt a calling to go to a very hostile region, had to be removed because of the tensions going on there, direct threats, and and had to leave, and then they feel this guilt that they've deserted their post, yet actually beginning to understand and grasp that coming out of danger is sometimes also what God has directed them to do. And and there we unpack the the different stories from the Bible where we see people moving into risk, but also those moving away from risk. That was godly led, like Paul escaping in the basket, um uh, you know, and Jesus saying, But it's not my time yet. And then he moves away from the crowd. So uh Joseph fleeing with Mary and and baby Jesus. I mean, we we can go through the scriptures, we don't have time today, but there are so many places where it was godly directed that people move away from danger, and that's for his glory. And I think maybe just to wrap that up, we must understand that when we talk about theology of risk, there's those three foundational um things on which we build it or on which we found it, and that is that our foundation must rest when we look at risk in the fact that God is sovereign. We must understand that he selects, that he directs us, and that we must do it for his worship because he is worthy. If if we if that's our our stance, our our from where we we serve is that our foundation rests in him, that he can select and direct us, and that we do this for his glory, then it will be godly um directed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's good. Those three categories are really helpful frameworks to you know review this in in our own interior motives of how how why are we pursuing risk? Um, as you said, there's a point of not just rushing into risk as well, there's also the assessment side of it and the risk management side of this. Is this the wise thing to do? Is this the prudent thing to do at this juncture? Um I think it's really interesting. And I think I love the fact that you are able to just draw from scripture and show us plenty of examples of people who who left and and went back at later times for different purposes and different ways. And so the fulfillment of God's plans were still met. And so it's not always yeah, that um, yeah, we just have to continue to be open and led to by the Holy Spirit in this pursuit.
SPEAKER_00:But obviously, it's that um I find um, and that's been a theme in my whole life, is is what is my agenda? Is it my agenda or is it God's agenda?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And is am I doing this solely for his glory, even if it if it's just for him and no one else knows, if it's for that audience of one? Because our our agendas can often make us do things which we think is part of being called to live a holy life, but then it's more because we want to be elevated, or we have we think the work cannot continue with us being present. Um, so it's it's it's tough stuff. Yeah, it takes it takes sitting down and looking at yourself and really being honest. Why am I doing this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that's really good. Why am I doing this? Um, which leads me a good transition, I suppose, to the next topic I want to talk about the preparation. What practical advice do people have? And um again, another one of those quotes from that book, um, Facing Fear, that I found really interesting is that it says that the most urgent concern is making security a priority in the minds of our people. There used to be sheep among sheep, not sheep among wolves. And I I thought about uh that and I was like, yeah, you know, so many of us relate in a given context um where it is very much safe and trustworthy and known, and now we're going into places and maybe regions and amongst people that are unknown, and there are wolves out there, and um in this idea of being prepared, analyzing risk, um what have you observed and seen from people that have helped them to be both spiritually, emotionally, and physically prepared um to go?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a very um uh succinct quote, um, explaining our mindsets and the mindset that we have to, you know, have the mind, a change to become and have the mind of Christ as we learn how to discern and we prepare. Um, preparing is part of being mature in Christ. Um, it's it's part of understanding that we have to change the way that we think and that we look at the world and and begin to have the mind of Christ. So being in the word, I want to start with the spiritual preparation because I think out of that the well, it's the well from which all the other preparation will spring. If I look back at our own journey being in the field, um we we did not really know that we had to prepare. It wasn't something that we were pursuing, um, you know, it wasn't high on the agenda in terms of, oh, you have to prepare to be in this hostile region. But we were spiritually engaging with the Lord, we were working our way through scriptures. We and as we were just loving Jesus and just um just pursuing our relationship with him, just being present, just um being with him in that space, prioritizing him. He then led us into preparing emotionally and physically. And we could not see it at that time. Um, it was only when we looked back when the kidnapping happened, for instance, that we could see, oh my word, but God must be in this because we did we did get this done. We we managed to put things in place that would help our children. We had read some books, we so we looked back and could see that that was not uh put above being spiritually engaged with the Lord. We were spiritually engaging with the Lord, and then out of that He prepared us. The value of be being prepared emotionally and physically was very helpful. It it gave peace, it gave us strength, it gave um, it put things in place which would have compounded the stress for everyone had we not done that. So you can't just say, oh well, we're just gonna sit and trust the Lord. I mean, if you look at Noah, um Noah had to go and build an ark before there was any drop of rain ever, before the concept of rain even existed. So he was being obedient, he was he was loving Jesus, he was loving God in his relationship, and out of that came his okay, I need to build something. I'm not sure what I'm doing, but I'm doing this. And and and that's our principle that we we always try and encourage people with is love the Lord, build on your relationship, put everything in that, that is priority, and then if he then asks you to build an ark, don't wonder why, just do it because it it might be the reason coming that's needed later for you to to have built that ark.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, that's really good. And sometimes it's just obedience, and we don't know what's taking place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's the word I was thinking of. Thanks, Finn.
SPEAKER_01:We just don't know what's gonna happen, but we have trust and obey. A lot of this stuff is so simple, but not easy. And so when we think about it from that perspective, what are some of the practical considerations that people need to be thinking through uh in these areas uh to be prepared?
SPEAKER_00:I think um organizations have their different contingencies and tra levels of training that they provide. Those are really critical. Um, that that people that feel called, that they that they engage with this, that they discover and learn the space that they're going to be in, um, and that they understand whether they're going alone, are they single, are they what gender they represent, what what country they represent. Um, because all of these puts you in dominant or subordinate groups, and understanding those dynamics is very important. I mean, if you just go as a woman to the Middle East and you come as an American woman to the Middle East, you you are definitely subordinate and you're definitely um uh a target. Are you you've got a certain value that is being assigned to you. Are you coming with children? Are they girls? Are they boys? What are their ages? So these are all practical things. Are you coming as a family? Um, I mean, just thinking of our space in the Middle East being South African afforded us more freedom uh than being, for instance, an American. And that was just being cognizant of even your um citizenship can elevate or uh have make you have higher value in specific areas. But then also just understanding the country that you're in. Is it a disaster zone? Is it on the ring of fire in the Philippines? Is it um uh Afghanistan where we have you know we just had an earthquake last night? So understanding all these things, um, having wisdom, having being wise, uh, learning from the people in the culture, and then making sure that your children, what are your country's um um prerequisites for traveling to those areas, what are your organizations' prerequisites, and what have you put in place? And and maybe we'll get to that, but you know, organizations have their duty of care, but they as going, as the people called, must first of all take responsibility. It's it's not the organization's only their responsibility, it is that family, that person going's responsibility in the first place. Um, how do we present ourselves? And if something goes wrong, how are we going to reflect as a Christian, as a believer, that that is also part of being a follower of Christ?
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I think that's really important to do. How would you respond to people say, well, you've just said we need to be spirit-led, why do we need to create plans like this?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, being spirit-led, that the spirit can lead you to, which was the case for us, it was to prepare well, to put certain um things that the world requires in place. For instance, with our children, we had a closure sign called the Denae Closure, which um provided or gave permission to other adults from our country to move our children, with without which you can't do it. You it's it's got you know, with all the hijacking, uh with all the uh trafficking going on, the movement of children has become very difficult if it's not with their parents, or even with the signed consent of each parent. Um, so you know, the the Lord led us to this signing of disclosure, which was very important because without that our children wouldn't have been able to return safely back to South Africa. So also just looking um um at what your organization, what the organization suggests, and and that could be determined on what is going on in the country. They've the organizations have learned, yes, certain certain areas are more hostile, therefore, we need different layers of training to support the family, to support the families of those families that are going, those remaining at home, praying, because the reality has been when things go wrong, then everybody has a different idea of how things need to be dealt with. Uh, everybody has a different definition of risk and crises and how that should be managed. And whether when teams and families and organizations are not on the same language page and concept page, it compounds everything. It it makes it so much more difficult to manage.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, absolutely. And as you're aware, I mean, we just you know went through a bit of a crisis situation with the organization, and you helped us with that. We're very grateful for that. But having our contingency plans in place and having the information there and having some decisions pre-made and some decisions, this is the latitude you have, um made it much easier, I guess, is the word. Um it was never easy, so that's why I'm I'm struggling to say that word, but it it really helped to have that framework in place to lead and to serve people who were going through a very difficult experience. And so, yeah, I think as you mentioned, organizations also have to be thinking about this on that side, and it becomes a partnership that both sides enter into to say we're on the same page, we have clarity of how these things will be happened so that we can step into situations with our eyes wide open, so to say, that we have an understanding of the risks that we're undertaking in this.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Um, as far as uh this, you know, what are some real practical, straightforward um resources or directives um for people to consider? Um, you can your your website or other people's websites or whatnot that would be useful for people to learn more in this area.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes, there's this, and that's the wonderful thing about this technology age we're in. There's a lot of resources that people can um go and find for themselves, equip themselves with um our website is one. We have down free downloads, um, and our website is crisisresponse network.net. So there's on our resources page. And if you want to have more sensitive uh materials, you can let us know and we'll give you a login because we don't have everything just visible to the public. And I think for people in in your organization, they would need the the more sensitive types of um material resources, but there's a wide variety from uh unexplored devices to how do we navigate these conversations with our children to kidnapping survival. Um yeah, there's just a wide range of those, and then another organization that I can really highly recommend is Crisis Consulting International that's um ccionline.site. Um they have various workshops that they present for the different levels that you would need. Uh, if you if you want something really basic, then I would say start with the website of Anna Hampton, which is theologyoffrisk.org. Um, and she also has on there the risk assessment and management workshop that she presents, but um myself is also accredited to present in the sub-Saharan uh African region. That is, like I want to say, uh grade one entry level. It gives you the risk vocabulary, it gives you the definitions of risk, um, and just so that it gets the families and the churches and the organizations all on the same page in terms of that process that we follow and are very easy to understand, even for children. How do we mitigate risk? And then going to CCI, which is the more deeper, more advanced types of training that they give, as well as for organizations. They do the whole CMT crisis management team or incident management team workshop. Um, they've got different tools. Also, they give an interrogation workshop, which is very critical because I find that is a topic that we also are not well prepared for, we were not prepared for interrogation, and just discerning the different types of interrogation and decreasing our stress levels, which gives us again longevity on the field. Um, it's really important. So these are just some of the spaces that people can find resources and workshops and courses to equip, help them feel equipped.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's great. Thank you for sharing all of those things. As we look into this a little bit more, you know, we have these resources, we have some preparations. How do we draw this back into the bigger picture of God's mission, um, risk, suffering, the advancement of the kingdom? What do we what do we learn from scripture and the global church to continue to move forward with the message of Jesus that we have?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, if we go back to the first century church, the Axe community, um they were certainly a community that practically demonstrated to us and lived out to us what could be expected as a follower of Christ. But um it's not it's not comfortable to think of that. It's it's we want to shy away from the concept of suffering and sometimes even think that it's something for that first century church. It's not needed so much now. But if we go back to them and we just look at the different types of risks that they were facing, um I mean, we're talking about uh stoning, imprisonment, death, um uh, you know, being displaced, displacement going out into other areas, being moved out of our comfort zones. Those are all things that happened then. And in fact, if we look realistically and honestly, it is still happening today in for not only those that are called to unrich people groups, but even to the persecuted church today. They they are certainly experiencing persecution, death, displacement, um, separation. Um none none of what the first century church went through is not happening now, today anymore. So if we look at what they went through and how they dealt with that, it gives us a good, uh solid foundation, how to prepare spiritually, mentally. And looking at scriptures, I mean, there's the scripture specifically that now just comes to my mind. Um, that Jesus said, don't be concerned on what you're going to say. Um, when you're being put before the Lord will bring to your mind scriptures or or words that he has in mind for that specific situation that you're in, because you can't really imagine what is going to be asked of you. You can't really um prepare uh like a sentence or two sentences, but if you are seeped in the word, if you are, you know. The teabag comes to my mind. If we're seeped in the word, if we're seeped in our relationship with Jesus, the Holy Spirit is faithful, and he was faithful there in the Acts Church. He will be faithful again today. I mean, I'm thinking of John. He was in prison, he was going to be beheaded, and then he had that doubt. Just go ask Jesus, was it him that we were expecting, or should we still expect someone else? Am I really suffering or real? Or is this, you know, am I am I to expect something else? Or why does the prison doors not open? So, you know, just as a follower of Christ, understanding that this is part of following Jesus. There is gonna be there is gonna be times of persecution and hardship. That doesn't mean he doesn't love us.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's quite a comforting thought. Um, and you know, Jesus himself says the same things that I have faced, you will face as well, and this was part of his reality, and so you know being yoked with him, being marked by him, being marked for him, this does come as part of the call in your own life, in the people that you're serving, in in what you've seen and experienced, how are you seeing God redeem these experiences?
SPEAKER_00:Sure, that's uh um a deep question, and and I'm not sure if I have the the full answer. I don't think any one of us can have a full picture of how God is redeeming um the suffering, because God is God and He's so sovereign, and and it's dangerous if we even think we understand God fully, because we're man and we can never, his ways are so much more above our ways, and but um I think two things uh that I can maybe uh unpack a little bit is the one is if I look at the way that God worked out his purposes through Jesus, and I look at how He was doing something which the world was looking at through Jesus on the cross, and and it didn't look right. It it looked totally it was going south. Um, I mean we see the disciples fleeing, we see them denying Jesus, we see them, you know, so it it didn't look in our worldly perspective, it it wasn't looking like God knew what he was doing. If I can if I can say it like that, please forgive me. It sounds wrong, but just go with me for a moment. So, but yet God in his wisdom, God in his absolute sovereignty, has a plan that is so much bigger than than what we can see or imagine or think. And he has everyone included in that plan. He had known what he was doing at the cross, even even if no one understood, he had known that this was for the sake of mankind to be reconciled with with him again, so that we can be forgiven, so that we can have access um to his throne and to him. Now, if he could redeem that situation, why will he not redeem other situations where his children are suffering for the sake of the gospel? It's just that we we we don't and we might not see the fruit now. And that brings me to the second point. If we can trust him that he was redeeming, he had a redeeming purpose with Jesus, then we have to trust him that he knows what he's doing, even if we don't see how it's working out, even if we can't go back and say, Oh, well, through this and this, so many people were saved. It doesn't matter. What matters is do we really, really trust God for the outcome? And do we want to see him glorified? Because if that is the sole purpose and if we trust him, if we trust him, then he will redeem it in some way or another. And I would I wouldn't want to say I'd rather not see the fruit now, but I do know that I can see the fruit when I get to him one day, and and and and maybe that's just our situation or how it worked out for us, but I know that we can't always see how he's working, but we can trust because he has people in mind to be reconciled with him.
SPEAKER_01:That's good, and that's that it is a is a heavy thing to to think about, and I think as we look at the the pictures of you know revelations and people from every tribe, tongue, and nation gather before the throne, that as the seeds of these lives and as the gospel gets planted, that we do have that future hope that we will see people um from every tribe, nation tongue gather before him because he's worthy. And um he is worthy, and so yeah, that's good. I find it really comforting to to look at that big picture and keep we we know this earth is temporal, it's a it's a short perspective, but when we keep that long perspective of eternity and what God is doing, um, then we can draw great hope from that.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it's important to remember that what you're saying now, because we we quickly forget that this is temporary.
SPEAKER_01:Um as we wrap up, just a very quick closing thought of that you would like to leave with the listeners.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think as I said in the beginning, um the main focus for me is just and for everybody I say is love Jesus, just continue to pursue him with everything in you, um, prioritize him, show up in your spaces of time with him. Um even if nothing spectacular that day happens, even if you didn't get a word, even if you are not seeing your prayers being answered, um then remember you're not showing up just for that, you're showing up because you you love Jesus and you're in love with him. Um and and out of that life flows. It's it's not the other way around. We cannot do, we cannot prioritize doing before being with him.
SPEAKER_01:That's good. Let's be with him so our life overflows from him as our source. Really good. Louis, thank you for the time today. Thank you for sharing your experience, uh, your wisdom. Uh, we've learned a lot, we've gathered a lot from this. You've given us a lot to think about um as we consider what it looks like to do missions in today's day and age where there is the reality of risk and um suffering together in in this gospel presentation, just as Jesus did himself. And um, so thank you for that. We really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, listener.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for tuning in today. I believe that there's lots for you to go away and ponder and think about and bring before God as you you meet with him. And as always, if you have any questions or comments about this show, um, you can contact me. The contact deals are in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you, and please feel free to uh share this, invite others into the conversation with us, and um, we'll talk to you next time. God bless.