This week I am talking to award winning author, Marni Graff about writing characters that endure and continue to be believable throughout a series.
This week I am talking to award winning author, Marni Graff about writing characters that endure and continue to be believable throughout a series.
Hi, and welcome to the writing and Marketing Show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. It's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast, so it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to Episode 62 of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur Wendy H. Jones. Life has been good in the John's household for the last week, and I'll explain why in a moment. Today we're going to be talking to Marnie Graf, who is joining us from the USA. And she we're going to be talking about writing a believable series character. And I think that's a really important one for people who like to write series and also because series are extremely popular, and they always they have been throughout time, and I'm sure they will continue to be so. So before we speak to Marnie, I would like to talk about the Scottish association of writers conference, which was on at the weekend, now, we had to move online, we're usually a fabulous hotel, the westerwood in in Scotland Cumbernauld, but this year, we had to do it all online because of COVID. And it was cracking, we had an amazing time, we had an amazing time. The the adjudicators and the workshop leaders were outstanding, the members have been buzzing and saying they enjoyed it. And even though it was virtual, they still managed to get a lot from it. So this conference is only for members of the Scottish association of writers. Now the reason I'm talking about it is I'm actually the president of the Scottish association of writers. And if you're in Scotland, or even if you're elsewhere, we do have some online groups as well, you can join our own affiliated writing group, and that makes you a member and it makes you able to come to the conference, it makes you able to be able to join our to enter our competitions. But it also means that you're able to, it also means that you're able to develop your writing craft, because being a member of a writing group is extremely important. Now you can join any writing group that you want, but you have to approach them, if you want to know what writing groups that are affiliated to us. Our website is www.Scottishassociationofwriters.com. So just go to Scottish association of writers.com. And then click on Find a group. And you'll be able to find a group, whether it's online or whether it's near you. Now, I must say that there's none of them actually meeting physically at the moment. But if you do join one, and you're nowhere near Be aware that at some point, they will move online, but it's well worth taking a look at our. And if you are in a group, we you can affiliate to us if you would like us to if you would like to, and you get help and support. And you will also be able to end your members will then be members and we'll be able to affiliate to the Scottish association of writers, which means they can enter the competitions. And they can. Your members can also come to the conference so it's well worth looking into. As always, it's my pleasure to bring you this every week. It does take time out of my writing. If you would like to support that time, you can do so by just $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or a coffee and you can support me and you can do it through patreon.com forward slash Wendy h Jones and I would be very grateful. So what have Marni well Marnie is a prolific writer and a lovely lady. I was in a conference with her recently and was extremely impressed. I was on a panel with her. She was a registered nurse for 30 years before being able to write full time. She's the award winning author of two series The Nora Tina English mysteries, and the Trudy Genova Manhattan mysteries, and I love the titles of those series. Both series are a mix of amateur sleuth and police procedural. Nora TNA is an American writer living in England with a nose for murder. with foreign print the fifth will be out this summer. Graphs Manhattan series features nurse Trudy Genova, a medical consultant for a new york movie studio. Based on graphs favourite real life nursing position it is the series or mentor PD James encouraged her to write death unscripted in death at the Dakota are the two in print. Managing Editor of Bridle Path press a small indie press, Marnie is a member of The International Association of crime writers, sisters in crime, and the North Carolina writers network. All of her books are available as ebooks and in audible. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from Marnie. And we've got Marnie with us now. Welcome, Marnie.
Unknown:Thank you. Thank you, Wendy. Thank you for having me.
Wendy Jones:Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you here. Where are you in the world tell my listeners.
Unknown:I live in North Carolina on the eastern coast along a river in a very, very rural area, perfect for writer. We live at the end of a dirt road, it's nine miles in one direction to get my mail. So when I say roll, I really mean it. But it's very peaceful and very quiet. And we love it here. We've been here 24 years now. But I'm from New York originally.
Wendy Jones:How, lovely. I mean, nine miles, I get my post delivered through my door. So nine miles
Unknown:down our road. There's only three families that live on our roads. So we have to go to the post office to get our mail. But to ups man will come to the house. He brings packages, he knows my dogs by name and always carries biscuits. So we get we get our mail that way sometimes.
Wendy Jones:Oh, that's absolutely lovely. I like that sort of thing. Now today, we're going to be talking about writing a series character. Now I've read some of your books, and they're absolutely brilliant. I love your character. So you know, you were the best person to chat to about this really. So my first question to you is, where is your starting point when considering a character?
Unknown:I think you have to discern a character in terms of growth, because readers want to see that character develop, both in times of terms of time passing by, and in terms of the different things that I as the author I'm going to put them through. So for Nora, for instance, in my English series, she's an American journalist who lives in England. And that starts off immediately with that fish out of water idea, with her getting used to different names for things and different ways of doing things. Americans sort of are famous for their exuberance and not keeping their emotions in check. And Nora has become acutely aware of this. And so she works hard to fit in. And although there's not a language barrier, per se, you do have different terms for different things, she's had to learn those. And there are just different ways that things are done in any country that are different from what she's used to. So there's that growth for her there. But then also, I want to give her an interesting backstory, not enough necessarily to overshadow what's happening now, but things that might affect her now. I mean, we all carry baggage from earlier times, whether it's from our childhood or things that happened to us in the past. So before the start of the first book, I've already decided on what that baggage for nor will be. And I think if you can design a character who you have given room to grow, that will be someone that readers will come back to again.
Wendy Jones:No, that's a great starting point. And you're right, you do need to decide what the backstory is for your character. But you know, without overwhelming so you know, all this information about your character, but you can't just dump it all in the first book. You know? So, what? Sorry, sorry. What I'm saying is, and, you know, once you've got the starting point for your character, how do you flesh them out to make them more realistic?
Unknown:I think the key Wendy is to keep your characters multifaceted. They're not no one is ever all good or all bad, even psychopath. I wrote into one of my books. There's a scene where he calls home to check that his gardener is remembering to prune his roses, you know, just gives him that little humanising touch, even though he's a right bastard. But here's what I do. I do a character Bible, which is basically a holdover from when I tried my hand at writing screenplays. So besides the usual appearance stuff, I jot down where a character came from the schooling, that baggage that I talked about family dynamics, anything else that could be intertwined. And then there are two things I decide for every character that I think are vastly important, and one is what he or she desires the most. And the other is what he or she fears the most. And I do that for all of these recurring characters actually, it helps me know how they would act and react in certain situations. And I know pretty clearly if something I'm having a character doesn't ring true. For example, in Nora's book, I had put in her Bible that she'd acted in plays in high school. You know, that was just something that I came up with when I was designing her and three books. Down the road and the Scarlet winch that came into play, I had a theatre troupe come to the lodge where she's staying for the time. And she had to step in for the role of an actress who's murdered. And she could do it, because she had a little experience. So you as the writer never know, when you're designing that backstory, how much of that is going to come into play. Um, another example would be a detective in one of the Trudy books, because that's my Manhattan series. He's a caffeine addict. And so he either always has a cup of coffee in his hand, or he's trying to find the next, you know, Coca Cola. And he drives his partner crazy, because he's always wanting to stop at a bodega running to get another coke. So all these little things that you come up with, that are multifaceted. I think that helps really round out a character and make them feel realistic to readers.
Wendy Jones:Know, that's a superb answer. I mean, I like the fact that it's the little things that make them realistic, and lift them off their feet, really, because very often, we forget that you know, that they have little fibres like the rest of us, you know? And I like the way you said, Yes, for every character, you think about what they desire, and what they fear. That's a great way.
Unknown:And you know, sometimes it can be the same thing in the Nora series, her relationship with an Oxford detective. Declan has advanced by the by the fifth book. And so what I had written down for him, he's divorced. And he didn't have a lousy divorce he had, he was married to a very nice woman, but she couldn't handle the fact that he was a detective. And she wanted out it she was fearful, he wouldn't come home from work one night, she couldn't handle that he was always on call and that their life was interrupted. So they, you know, you don't see her at all. But his his fear is of hurting someone else, again, in that way in a relationship, and that makes him sort of shy off to commitment. And yet in the same regard, it's also what he desires most, he really would like to be in a committed relationship. So that's the baggage that he carries around. And so that's helped define him to a certain degree.
Wendy Jones:What an excellent example. Really, you're right, you know, that can be the same thing. And so I love that, thank you. Hey, I'm writing notes down here, you know, Marnie. Again, I'm putting the pressure on now every time I asked you a question, I upped the ante, but I know you can take it. So how do you stick to that for one book in a series?
Unknown:I think you have to look at where you plan to start where you plan to end up. And with it within that one book, you still have to show a certain amount of character growth for your main character, whether it's something in terms of decisions they make for their future, or something more intrinsic, like learning to trust a partner, I think the character has to show some sort of internal growth. And that may even just be something that they become aware of their own shortcoming. Or perhaps it's learning to take a chance on something that they've been reticent about before, it all adds to the texture of a character. And that can be accomplished in one book. Because you want the reader to feel that that one book is satisfying, even if it's a series so for me, the crime is always solved in each book, you technically could pick up the books and read them a stand alones and know who did it or have the mystery solved. And and have a satisfying read. It's the character arc for me and the series that continues. So to give you an example, my Nora in the English series, she compartmentalises things and that's her coping mechanism. And that, therefore allows her to appear overly confident at times, when in reality, she may have butterflies in her stomach. So that's something that any reader can relate to that very human feeling. So that's what I tried to do I just try to keep her as human as possible and give her something or give all those characters, something that the reader can identify with.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, like that? No, look, I'm going to push the push the envelope is this even further? I don't know if that's saying you've got in the States, but we like it here in England, we're going to push further. How do you develop this character over an entire series? And I mean, I'm really wanting this answer because I've got a series and I'm trying to look at how your character can develop.
Unknown:You know what I did when I wrote when I sat down to write the first book, which is called the blue version. I actually wrote an arc on a piece of paper, I wrote an arc that covered six books. I figured that six Books was about what I had in me to get started with her. And if I wanted more than that, I would add them in. And I divided that arc into six blocks. And in each block, I put one thing, just one main thing that would happen to Nora, that would promote growth or change because she's the main character. So it had nothing to do with the crimes or the mystery that was going to be in it. It had to do with Nora. And, um, I was designing the series with her in mind. So these were all things that would pertain, you know, to her as an individual. For example, I mentioned that Nora's mother's remarried in book one, but we don't see her and her stepfather until book four. And while her stepsister Claire is mentioned very early, that she has one, she doesn't show up as a character until this new book that have coming out this summer, the evenings, Amethyst, and Claire shows up as a character. So all along the way, you're planting seeds of things that you can pick and choose from, you can say, oh, what should I write the next book about? Oh, that's right. She has a stepsister in Connecticut. Hmm, maybe I should bring her to Oxford and let her do her masters there. And then all of a sudden, there's Claire calling set, Nora one morning and saying, Please come, my best friend has fallen down a staircase, they think she committed suicide, she would never do that. I know it's murder, you have to help me. And that all came out of just knowing that she was someone who I mentioned in Nora's background. So that's that that arc is is something that I think is helpful when you're planning a series. I'll give you another example. I I'm not sure why I did this. But I made Nora be in the early stages of an unplanned pregnancy in the very first book, The blue virgin, and she has to decide to have this baby, as his father has died or given up for adoption, or having abortion, that's something that she struggles with personally. And then of course, she's decided to keep the baby because in the next book, she's very pregnant. And that impacted the whole writing of that book in, in the one after that, she starts a new relationship, and that becomes cemented in the fourth. So in this way, I know what happens to Nora, in terms of her personal life for six books out and after that, I have to decide if I'm going to write more, or if I'm going to write another arc. But um, I think when you sort of have these milestones in your main characters life, that's enough for an arc because you're going to create the crime different each time, usually.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, I mean, that was a standing answer, because it was so detailed and really, really useful. I mean, I'm, again, I keep pushing the envelope. I'm intrigued. Now, one of the things that I thought when I started my series, I thought the land after eight books, but it would appear that you know, my character, and the readers would like to carry on. So if you don't know when the series will end, how do you develop a character doc name?
Unknown:You know, I think that if you've given your character enough change and growth in each book, you could theoretically and each book as though that's the natural end to the series. And then if you decide you don't want to write that character any longer. There's some sort of resolution there. I mean, you're talking about your detective Shona McKenzie, and she has her own baggage and her own background, and she's a delightful character, I can see why readers would want to continue the journey with her so to speak, because you haven't exhausted all of that what's happening to her, you're actually in the last book I read, you just were sort of starting a new beginning for her. So I think that that's, I think that that's how you do it. I think if you don't know where this series is going to end, you just have enough resolution that readers would be satisfied if you don't pick up the character anymore. I'll give you an example for the Trudy, the Manhattan series I write, I only have a character arc written for four books, because I haven't figured out beyond that yet where I'll take her. So I think you have to leave yourself open to being able to end a series within each book, unless you clearly plan to write the next Trudy's first book was called Death On scripted and the second is death at the Dakota. And that is the first one where the ending on that clearly shows there will be another one because I knew where I was going next. But I haven't done that in any of the other Nora's, although a canny reader, of course, we'll see where perhaps she's headed. And so I think if you wrap things up, so to speak, you could revisit them again and just explain what's happened. If you do a time lapse, or if you just pick up where you left off. I really think it's doable.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, again, you've hit the nail on the head, really, you know, it's you need to give yourself enough rope that you can tease a total little butt Not enough rope really have to carry on when you haven't got anywhere to go with it? You know, right? Yeah. No, I think that different characters work well over a series and yet others you know that it's come to the end at the end of one. Can I Can you give us any examples of a type of character which works well over a series.
Unknown:I always think an unfinished character works well, someone who's not so set in their ways or the situation that they can't change. Because again, that's what you're looking for, you're looking for growth, you're looking for change. So someone that's going to appear in a book one time and then never be seen, again, is someone that can be written a little bit more, I'm not, I don't want to say cliched, but you don't have to run them out as much because you're not going to be exploring their personalities as much. So for the these unfinished characters that you want to keep going, I think you do that in terms of what we could do in terms of age, if you have a young girl character, you there's a natural age progression. But really, I think it's more interesting, where the character learns about themselves as they face things that life throws at them, whether it has to be within the decisions that they make in their personal life or things that happened to them, because of the crime that you in, bother them with. A lot of times in a crime novel, you have an older main character, and they're reacting to things that have already happened in their past like a j to detect devore pi. And you can have them over come something like an addiction to drink or to drug. But that, to me feels a little bit overdone in the main, that's sort of an older template. I think we're all capable of changing weed. Yeah, if we put our minds to it. So some people have more strength of character than others, and may be someone who learns to value their own strengths. To me that becomes a good main character and someone you can kind of run with, that may show itself in terms of stubbornness or decisiveness of work on the case or maybe learning to trust their instincts. You know, Nora has to learn. She's she was a journalist, she's now writing children's books. And she's had to learn to trust she has an instinct for these things when it comes to detecting and Declan who's now her partner, when he first met her, they rubbed each other the wrong way, because who was this amateur when he was the professional detective trying to tell him how to run his case. So they knocked heads, and they didn't come together in a relationship until the fourth book in the series. And so he's learned not only to trust your instincts, but to see that she's not trying to do his job for him. She's trying to help him she's trying to aid him. And maybe he'd say eight and a bit. But you know, they've they've lapsed into a little bit more of a symbiotic relationship, where he's aware that, first of all, she's a great liar, because she's been a journalist. And they have to be kind of ballsy as we say here. So she has absolutely no problem, putting on a fake name, or getting herself into situations or to interview someone where nobody else possibly could go, because she has that kind of chutzpah. And sometimes he's got that police detective card and people clam up, when they see he's police. So she can sometimes get more out of a witness than he can. And he's learning to make use of her I guess, is what I would say. So so to really answer your question, um, I think an unfinished character, one whose potential is not seen in the entire in the first book is one that makes a great series character that you can keep mining for these different things. So that's my suggestion.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, no, that it's great, you know, is the type of character which is changing and growing and developing, you know, and you've given some brilliant examples. I mean, another example of one I can think that doesn't change at all she never lands is Stephanie plum, from Janet evanovich. Series. But the thing that keeps you reading Stephanie plum is because you always think, seriously, she's gonna have to learn something by the next book, you know, and then you read the next is still the same heartless, hopeless person and yet your lover? You know? So
Unknown:the humour character, that series?
Wendy Jones:Yeah, yeah. So there are some types of characters that you think, Oh, well, you know what I like you. So I'll keep reading about you. But on the whole, we want them to develop. Now you've given us some examples from your own books. And are you able to give us any other examples from your own books of you know, why a character would work? Well.
Unknown:You know, I was thinking about that there. There used to be a show here in the US called biography and the tagline and it was because every life has a story. And I think the main thing is not to have the character's entire story already have been told in Up in the beginning and so, for instance, let me give you an example. Let's go back to Nora, who is my main character in the English series, she's dealing with guilt she feels over her father's death when she was a teenager, he asked her to go sailing with him, and she didn't. And she went on a date. Instead, a school came up and his little sailboat capsized, and he drowned. And it takes her years to overcome that guilt that she didn't go with them. Even though her mother has assured her if Nora had been with him, she might have drowned too, and left her mother with nothing. You know, it wasn't her fault, but she feels it's her fault. And so how that affects her as an adult now is that she very much feels she doesn't deserve to be happy in book one. And she makes, therefore makes a poor choice for the man who ends up being the father of her baby. And he subsequently dies. But she really she was breaking the relationship off with him, she realises she made a mistake there. And, and that and that sort of carries through to two other books, she doesn't feel she deserves someone better, she has to learn to do that. And then let me give you another example. Norris best friend is a textile artist, Val Rogen, in the first book, she's accused of murdering her partner, which is why Nora comes to the case to prove Al's innocence. But it takes Val a long time to find another partner. And that doesn't happen until the fourth book, even though we see her as a character in each of the books along the way. She's been grieving, and then she has to heal a bit before she'll take a risk again and give her heart to someone else. So those are all very real things and emotions that people who have experienced a loss, I think can feel that way about. And if you have that kind of universal feeling that people can identify with, I think those are the types of things that keep a reader coming back also.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, yeah. I mean, you've given some fabulous, fabulous advice and examples from other people's work from your own work. This has been outstanding. And can you tell us a bit more about your own books?
Unknown:Well, I have two series and the Nora tyrannies are all set in England, and they will have colour in the title. So they have a colour wash on the covers. But there's also real metaphors for what's happening in the book. And for instance, I'll just the last the most recent one, not the one that's coming into print, but the one that was in print before that is called the Golden Hour. And the golden hour means a lot of different things to different people, depending on their viewpoint to a photographer and artists, the golden hour is that hour, just before sunset, when everything takes on a golden glow. to a doctor, the golden hour is the hour right after someone's had a stroke or heart attack, where they have the best chance of recovering if you get them emergency, medical, you know, attention right away. But the golden hour to a detective is the hour right after a serious crime when they get the best. And the most reliable eyewitness statements and gathered the best evidence. And so that's the title of that one. And it pertains in some way to Nora's son. Now, throughout this arc of Nora, I told you in Book One, she was pregnant. And then Book Two, she was very pregnant, she had decided to keep the baby and it's born at the end of book two. But now I've got this baby that I've saddled myself and Nora with don't I so throughout the course of the series, I always have to account for that child's. So you know, he's an infant in Book Three. But in the last book in the golden hour, he's approaching his first birthday. And then the one I've just written it's his first Christmas. He's about 14 months old. So I have to keep all of that, like a tickler file in my head for this child. And now she has a dog also that she's training named typo. And how you I keep trying to keep you give her as normal a life as possible. You know, you want babies, you want dogs, but then that creates issues that you the author have to keep track of. But I like Nora I she's inquisitive and to the point of being nosy because she is had that journalistic bent and the fact that she's writing children's stories now dovetails well she doesn't have to travel as much he can do that from her home office and having a child and a dog that you know, that all makes that gel very well but she still has that journalistic drive to get involved in in her boyfriend's cases. And then I write another series called The Trudi Genova Manhattan mysteries and there are two of those in print. I just started writing those and now I alternate the two so the first one is death on scripted, and the second is death of the Dakota and Trudy is a very interesting character because she has what was my real favourite first job. In a movie studio. I'd been a nurse for 30 years who always wanted to write and I knew screenplay format. As I was easing my way out of nursing into writing full time, I saw a job advertised as a medical consultant for a movie studio. And I got the job because I knew script format. So I would go down, I lived on Long Island at the time, I would take the train and whenever they were filming medical scenes just for the medical scenes, and I would be given the script, I would go over and with the director, and we would talk about if there are any glaring errors in that script. And then I would stay and go through the taping that day through rehearsal dress rehearsal, and the final taping and in the rehearsal was my chance to speak up and say to him, No, that's wrong, it would be this way, and try to make things as realistic as possible. However, the caveat with that which frustrated me which also frustrates Trudy is that the director is the person who has the final say, and so if he did not want to take my advice, he would blithely shrug his shoulders and say, to me, artistic licence, meaning he wasn't going to listen to me, I still got paid, whether it was accurate or not. But you know, I'll give you an example of that one time a director said to me, I would like to have that IV hanging have colour in it, because you know, IV bags, the fluid is always clear. And I thought and I thought, and I said to him, Well, you know, yellow is really we could add his vitamins. Sometimes we make them yellow, we could do yellow. No, no, no. He said to me, I want Purple. Purple. I said, purple. No, there's no purple artistic licence, purple, purple food colouring, please. And they had a purple Ivy hanging. Now the backfire to that and Trudy sees that in her books is that that's when you know, anyone who has any medical knowledge will know that that's totally, absolutely incorrect. And then the switchboard lights up, and people get emails in personnel all the time, about how they, you know, they had a big blooper on it, which was why I was happy sometimes, and Trudy's happy that her name doesn't appear in the credits. But um, so Trudy has an interesting job in that she gets to go on these John's where things are being filmed. And she advises and as I said, her advice isn't always taken. But she's another one who has sort of a nose for murder and finds herself involved in cases. So she said she's a pretty interesting character, too. Yeah.
Wendy Jones:Brilliant. I mean, they're both great characters. They really are. And your books are fabulous. Unfortunately, we have no, which is a shame because I could talk to you for hours, Marnie. So my very last question, Where can my listeners find out more about you and your books?
Unknown:Well, they're all on the bridle path, press website. But everything is on Amazon, of course. And there's an author page. And all the books are available in Kindle and on Audible besides paperback, and they're on amazon.co.uk. So you can get them over there.
Wendy Jones:Awesome. So we can get them from Amazon. And if we, if we if you're in the States, because I've got listeners in the states as well. You can get them from Westlake and from Amazon. And I'm sure you can get them from book shops when book shops reopened.
Unknown:So yes, yes, as a matter of fact. Yeah, there's a bookshop in Bath that sells all my books and heifers, and Cambridge sells my books.
Wendy Jones:Well, there you go. We can get something there as well. So thank you very much, Maren. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.
Unknown:Thank you, Wendy. Well, I really appreciate the time, and I'm
Wendy Jones:sorry.
Unknown:I hope you enjoy the rest of your day to
Wendy Jones:Oh, I'm sure I will. It's getting on a bit here. It's a bit later here than it is where you are but what only four hours out at the moment. And another week will be five hours out again. It's all very complicated to be honest.
Unknown:We've already had our so I have to check the time when we set this up.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, yeah, it's To be honest, I was late for an interview because I was still on five hours ahead and we're only four hours. So oh my goodness, how much money take care and enjoy your day. That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy h Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash Wendy h Jones. I'm also went to h Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you've found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then have a good Good week and keep writing. Keep reading and keep learning