Grief is a topic not often spoken of, and yet everyone will grieve at some point in their lives. Finding books to help us deal with grief can often be difficult. Today I talk to Penelope Swithinbank about writing books which help people during the grieving process.
Grief is a topic not often spoken of, and yet everyone will grieve at some point in their lives. Finding books to help us deal with grief can often be difficult. Today I talk to Penelope Swithinbank about writing books which help people during the grieving process.
Hi, and welcome to the writing and Marketing Show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. It's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast, so it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to Episode 78 of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur Wendy H. Jones. Today I'm going to be talking to Penelope Swithinbank about writing books based that would help people with grief. And this is a topic which often gets glossed over so it was one that I wanted to cover today. But before we do that, what's been happening in the world? Well, I did another book signing on Saturday. And it was very exciting, I have to say, to get out and about and meet people and things are happening. And you should look for book signings and author events and book events because they're happening again. And it would be great if you could support a local author. So I'm encouraging you to do that. Before we talk to Penelope I would like to say that it's an absolute honour to bring you the show every week and I do so willingly. It does take time out of my writing those so if you would like to support that time, you can do so by going to patreon.com forward slash Wendy h Jones and you can do so for only $3 a month which is less than the price of a cup of tea or coffee per month and it will let me know that you like the show and you want me to continue doing it and I will keep doing it for till the 100 show and beyond will say because I really I'm very much enjoying it and very much enjoying meeting people, crumbs. I'm tripping over my tongue today. I don't know what's going on, honestly. So what have Penelope Penelope swithun Bank has a portfolio of experience which has helped to shape the way She now works as a self employed retired person. I love that description. The portfolio ranges from being the franchisor businesswoman who created bumps a daisy, a national franchise to rent and sell maternity wear to becoming ordained in the Church of England where she is now a chaplain at Bath Abbey. And along the way, she has had three books published being erected in South Carolina, open the US Senate in prayer led pilgrimages in both the UK and Europe and runner treehouse. Penelope loves walking and has just completed 150 miles in 13 days walking from Winchester to Canterbury on the pilgrims way. She is grandmother to six almost teenagers and says the grandchildren are so great, she should have the items first. And I think a lot of people would agree with that. So Penelope is a lovely, lovely lady, and has many strings to her bow. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from Penelope. And welcome, Penelope. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here with us on the writing and Marketing Show.
Penelope Swithinbank:Thank you. And it's amazing to be here with you. I'm very grateful to be to have this opportunity. Thank you.
Wendy Jones:Well, I really wanted to talk to you because there are so few people writing books based on grief. And it's something we shy away from and yet it's something that is very, very much needed, especially at the moment, I have to say, because there are more people grieving this year, I think than many years.
Penelope Swithinbank:Yes. And we've got grief in the sense of course, that many people have lost loved ones, but I think all of us are grieving for things we didn't even know we could lose.
Wendy Jones:Absolutely. I think we're all grieving, a change our lifestyles as where, because everything has changed. So you've raised a good point, really. And I'm sure we'll develop all sorts of things like that. When we when I open up the questions, which I haven't actually opened up so you know, and I'm always I'm always admitting defeat on this podcast, you know. So, in the meantime, while I'm opening up the questions, where are you in? Where are you in the world, Penelope.
Penelope Swithinbank:I live just south of the city of Bath, which is our family home. My parents in law came from Bath. So we've retired back to bath and I'm a chaplain at Bath Abbey.
Wendy Jones:Wow, a chaplain at Bath Abbey. That sounds very grand. I have to say. You're the first chaplain from an abbey we've had here.
Penelope Swithinbank:Well, it's loitering with intent. So obviously, there are lots of tourists who come in because it's a big historic building. And as well as preying on the hour, every hour with public prayers, we also loiter with intent just to chat to people and be present for those who want prayer or want to share
Wendy Jones:something. Excellent. Well, the next time I'm down in Bath, which I love, I'll pop in and pop into Bath Abbey and pray with you. So that would be great.
Penelope Swithinbank:Love to see You.
Wendy Jones:Anyway, let's move on and I've got my questions. Often note, my listeners are used to me being absolutely hopeless. The guests are absolutely 100% professional and I just Bumble along the best I can, oh, they are interesting. They do they do the job, really. So, you know, good if we're going to talk about grief today and writing books about grief. But grief is a very personal process. Could you start by telling us a little bit about your journey and your book?
Penelope Swithinbank:Yeah, as grief is a journey, as you say. And also, it's different for each of us. And I'm not in any way an expert in the matter of grief, other than I've been through traumatic grief myself. I'm not sure that makes me an expert, but it means that I can empathise with those who are grieving. My mother was actually killed by an out of control car. And it was an horrific accident anyway. But I was actually standing beside her when it happened. And so witness the whole thing. So it was a very traumatic accident, and death, and affected me in a profound way, as you can imagine, I mean, death is always traumatic, even if we're expecting it because somebody is seriously ill, it's still traumatic when it happened. Particularly if we loved the person who's died. Somebody wants said didn't leave a grief is the price we pay for love. And if we've loved somebody, then there's going to be huge grief when they go. And so because I was traumatised by the accident, and what happened and what I witnessed, and, and losing my mother, I suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome for a couple of years, and lost my ability to read, which was really tough, because reading was one of the things I've always done, it's one of my favourite things to do. And I couldn't read, I couldn't read books about grief, I couldn't read anything, including the Bible. So I wasn't getting any support or help in any way from anything I was reading, because I couldn't remember what I was reading. And I really wanted something that was very short, and spoken to my situation. And I couldn't find anything new A few years later, I started writing it, I suppose, partly for myself, as much as for other people. And what it is, is a said 2525 26 sections of devotions under a theme. So the 25 or 26, different themes. And each of those sections has readings for Monday to Saturday. And there's a little verse in Scripture, maybe two sentences with thought, and then a little prayer, you can say. So that's the bulk of the book. At the beginning of the book, there's an introduction, but you don't have to read that. And there's also a section for those special days. So the day of the funeral, the day after the funeral, the first Christmas without the person who's not the first birthday, the first wedding anniversary, if that's appropriate, and so on. So there's a section on that. But then there are also wonderful photographs through the book, I didn't take them, so I can say that to them. And and sometimes just looking at a photograph can really be helpful when it ties in with the whole theme. And then there are some reflections and some poems I've written at the back as well and quotes from other places. And then there's one short, one short, little bit about what if the person who died as far as we know, didn't believe in God, isn't? What Ben. So it's quite a range of things. And it's beautifully set out. My my publisher set it up in such a way that it's easy to read, dyslexic friendly, and very clear. So you're not overwhelmed with print. It's not mean thrown at you too much print. There's plenty of space. You could take a deep breath. Yeah, yeah,
Wendy Jones:I know that all Sarah grace. Publishing. Books are dyslexic friendly. So that's always a bonus. Yeah. I mean, we don't immediately if somebody dies, think about writing, writing a book about it, you know, but I know that writing can help you with all sorts of different emotions. And grief really does rub our emotions raw. And honestly, as I say, the last thing we think about is writing a book to help us deal with it. But how does the process of writing help us deal with our grief?
Penelope Swithinbank:It's an interesting question, because I think actually, the process of writing for many of us helps us with all sorts of different emotions. Yeah. So just the act of picking up a pen or a pencil and putting it onto paper. And what comes out can actually help us to express whatever our emotion whether it's grief or something else, some of us will be writing, some of us might be doodling. Some like colouring Drawing, whatever. But I think that process of allowing the pen on the paper can be very powerful in helping to express the emotion we're getting through, when we probably don't even know quite what we're thinking or feeling ourselves. And there's something that helps by putting pen to paper, which helps us to process and just pour it all out. And remember, in the early days, writing pages and pages and pages, because I like journaling, and it's something that I find helpful. And I began to put things in boxes, and I was putting exclamation marks, or I was putting Asterix, just doing all sorts of things that helped me to realise what was important, what was really coming out. I found that very therapeutic. And I think a lot of people will do the pen to paper, whatever comes out of the pen, whether you're writing or in any other way as well, that can help with the process.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, it's somewhat cathartic, isn't it? Because you're getting out of you and down somewhere safe? You know, because speaking to people can be really hard. Yes. But writing it in a journal or writing it down on paper is, is something that is private. So yeah, getting it out of your out of your system, because it's you're not going to get over to in writing going one story, but you are getting out there. But it's in a private place where other people won't condemn or judge.
Penelope Swithinbank:Yes, yeah, absolutely. And allowing yourself the time to do that, as well. As it doesn't get two minutes, it takes a little bit longer than that for most of us, and to allow yourself the time to do that.
Wendy Jones:Yes, no. Good point. So as I as I say, grief is personal. So the last thing we can do is prescribe the How to of writing a book such as this, but can you tell us some of your thinking and process for the book?
Penelope Swithinbank:Hmm, well, initiative, as I said, I was writing it for myself, looking back as it were, two or three years later and thinking, well, this would be helpful, maybe it's going to be helpful now. And then what I did actually was think, well, if it's helping me, maybe it would help somebody else. So I put it on my blog on my website, and week by week published a little bit more and a little bit more. And as people's responses began to come in, this was helpful, this wasn't so helpful. That helped me to refine a little bit as to how I was actually writing it. But the process itself was a long one. It wasn't something that happened quickly. So if I tell you the accident was actually in 2010, which is 11 years ago, yeah, it's taken me. Yeah, eight to nine years, I suppose to actually write it and get it to the publishing stage. And of course, when I set out to write it, I wasn't intending it to be published, it hadn't come to my mind that I would do that. It was anyone I was publishing something else with Sarah grace, and happened to mention this. And she said, Oh, we've never done anything like that before. Let's let's have a look at it. So that's why,
Wendy Jones:yes, it is great. Because she realises what is needed. She knows the market. Yeah. And because she knows the market, she knows that if something is needed, or not. Yeah. You know, so she's not frightened to take bold steps.
Penelope Swithinbank:Yes, absolutely. And it was very helpful, because we could meet over zoom, and talk it through and she had these creative ideas and just chatting with her, we came up with this idea of making a little gift book. And it's hard back and a gift book, rather than just an ordinary paperback.
Wendy Jones:The book is stunning. I have to say it's absolutely stunning. You know, so well done to both of you, you've done a great job.
Penelope Swithinbank:She's been great. And my son also had a little bit of input as well, because he works in the same area. So right. Okay.
Wendy Jones:So where would you say is the best place to start? If someone was considering writing a book, which will help others deal with their grief, apart from the fact that you're going through the grieving process yourself, of course, which is never recommended for anybody?
Penelope Swithinbank:No, I think acknowledging the fact that everybody's grief is different. We all have to walk our own path of grief. And we'll do that in different ways. And so it's not a question of one size fits all. Mine is very specifically written for a Christian market. And if somebody were to say to me, would you give this to a non believer, or would you give this to somebody who has a totally different religion when you could, but that's not who it was intended for. And I can only be honest and say this is intended for those who do have a Christian faith. Yeah. Yeah. So who is your market? Who are you writing for? What type of grief Are you writing for? And the other thing I think, which is helpful is to talk to people about it. So I actually had five or six beta readers, people who read my manuscript, who had very different experiences of grief themselves. And some of them loved it and found it helpful. And some of them said, hasn't spoken to me at all. But that's fine, because that's part of the fact that we all have our own journey of grief, and different things appeal to different people. Yeah, no, you
Wendy Jones:raise a valid point there, because everybody's journey is different. You know, some people you wouldn't even know they were grieving. And that's not saying they aren't. They don't display it, you know, and that's their way of coping. Others tell the whole world and that's their way of coping.
Penelope Swithinbank:Absolutely. And of course, as a culture, we're not actually very good at grieving. When I got I don't know about you, but I can remember when I was a child, I can remember seeing men particularly I can think, wearing the black armband. Yes, they were grieving and mourning for somebody died. And of course, in years gone by people wore black for a couple of years. Whereas now we tend to generalisation but people tend to say, well, the funerals happened now get on with your life. Yeah.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, you're right. Because I mean, I went to, I went to an exhibition on and it was about death, and the way it was handled through the centuries. And, of course, the Victorians put everything in black, they put black render mirrors that were black on the windows, and they really did express their grief. Whereas You're right, I think we've got away from that. So I think this is why books like this are so necessary now. Because we don't acknowledge our grief in a lot of ways.
Penelope Swithinbank:And you think in other cultures, people will actually sit with those who are grieving, and they have periods of crying out loud together, they'll have food, day after day after day. I think in the Old Testament of job, his friends just sat with him for seven days, they then went on to talk a whole load of rubbish. But prior to that they were actually sitting with him and acknowledging his grief and sharing in it with him. And I don't think we're very good at doing that these days. Just being with people to allow them to grieve. No, not at all. We're not we're not good at that at all. Maybe writing is a way of sitting with someone.
Wendy Jones:Yes. But yeah, I think you're right. Actually, it is yes. We've already said this. You're a Christian. And faith is a large part of your book. How do you think adding a fifth element to a book such as this can help not only writers but readers?
Penelope Swithinbank:Well, I pray that it does. I say I was writing for Christians who have lost a loved one, I do hope that it will reach out and help other people too. But that wasn't my target audience. And of course, therefore, I've narrowed my audience down considerably to say that it is for Christians. But I think in expressing our faith, we are both fulfilling the Great Commission where Jesus said, Go into all the world and tell how people well, this is one way of doing it. I'm not an evangelist. I can't go out and stand on a street corner. I'm not Jay john, or, you know, one of these, Billy Graham or whatever. Yes. But I can perhaps in my own little way, write something which will go out there. Yeah. So I think adding a faith element is one way of, of expressing our faith to others, even if we're not very good at doing that. publicly. Yeah. But it's also sharing what's been important for us. Let's say this has made a difference to me. This is the difference my faith makes to me. Maybe it might help you if you understand that a little bit. Yeah. Makes sense.
Wendy Jones:Yes, it makes a great deal of sense. You know, if you have a faith, being able to read a book like that, which contains your faith is is comforting. You know, it's soothing. And it can help you realise that you're not you're not standing alone, because I think part of the grief process is you feel you're on your own. And no one else is going through it. You could have 20 brothers and sisters are going through the same thing. They don't feel what you feel because it's so individual. their individual. Absolutely. Yes. So
Penelope Swithinbank:and it takes time to learn to live with it as well. Yeah, that's
Wendy Jones:a good point. Yeah, you do have to learn to live with it. And you need time for that. I'm curious, what did you find was the hardest part of writing this book.
Penelope Swithinbank:I mean, initially going through the whole grief process and then right. It was almost as if I was Going through it again. Yeah, it was Britain back. So though it was helping me in expressing it was also difficult, because it took me back to where I had been. And so that was difficult to keep going through it. Just purely practically the difficult bit was. And I'm sure a lot of people writing may may agree with this. I hate rewriting, and I love editing. And you know, every time the publisher sends it back and says, We've corrected everything, can you go through and just check that we really have I think, Oh, no, I've done this once. I really didn't want to have to do it. Yes. I hate rewriting. And I love editing. Other people seem to enjoy editing and getting it corrected exactly how they want. Yeah, I find that really hard. What
Wendy Jones:I can imagine, yes, obviously editing. You know, a lot of people feel that, you know, editing the seventh circle of hell, you know, it's
Penelope Swithinbank:right. Yeah. And of course, I've got a lot of quotations in Scripture. So biblical quotations, which come with a verse, a chapter and a birth. And so you've got to check with every number is correct. So every, every time you've mentioned, you know, Romans, chapter eight, verse 28, you've got to check the VAT is that burst with those numbers? And I have dyscalculia mean, numbers mean absolutely nothing to me. Oh, no. Cannot cannot get to grips with numbers at all. Can't remember phone numbers or anything like that. And so having to check these numbers, is a nightmare. Now I can remember where on the page the birth comes, and I can see it absolutely printed out. I can spell it. I can say it. I've got a photographic memory for words. Yeah. But that's just a nightmare.
Wendy Jones:Yes, I can imagine that. Yeah. So what three tips would you give to anyone considering writing a book which encompasses grief?
Penelope Swithinbank:Very interesting thought, what would I tell them? I think, first of all, to remind yourself that actually writing about grief can be quite draining, you know, in tottering, because you're probably only writing about grief, if you've been through it yourself. Maybe not. But I suspect most of the time, people will be writing about grief, because they've been through a grief themselves. And to be kind to yourself, because it is going to be tiring. You're living through it again. I think secondly, to acknowledge that everybody's grief is different. Yes, you have thoughts and you've learned as you've been through it, but to remember that we each have our own different journey to walk. And then thirdly, and again, I mentioned this a little a little while ago, but to have some beta readers who have different grief journeys, and to take their advice and get them to read it and what to tell you what has been helpful and what hasn't been.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, they're excellent tips. No, I'm just you know, all interviews have to come to an end at some point. So my final question, which is the same for everyone, is where can my listeners find out more about you and buy your books?
Penelope Swithinbank:Well, that's very kind. I mean, books should, I think should be bought from good local independent booksellers. So go to your bookseller, and get it from your bookseller. However, if you would like a signed copy, you can get them through my website, which is my full name now will be threatened bank.com and just go there. And it'll tell you how to order a book, and I can send you a signed copy. But of course, if you want an E book, if you wanted to own a Kindle, then you need to go to Amazon,
Wendy Jones:Amazon. All right, we don't mind you mentioning Amazon here as well. People have choices. That's what it's about, you know, people choose where they want to read, and it just needs to be available everywhere. So that's marvellous. Well, thank you very much, Penelope. This has been amazing. Thank you.
Penelope Swithinbank:Well, thank you, Wendy, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. And I hope people are going to be writing about grief. You and I find out about it too, because anything is helpful, isn't it? Yes, it really is.
Wendy Jones:So thank you for taking the time. Thank you for sharing your journey. And I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. Thank you, Wendy. Bye, bye. That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy h Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash when the H Jones. I'm also went to h Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you've Find it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week and keep writing. Keep reading and keep learning