Today I chat to Children's Author and Publisher, Janet Wilson. Janet is an award winning publisher and best-selling author, who has years of experience in the world of writing for children.
Today I chat to Children's Author and Publisher, Janet Wilson. Janet is an award winning publisher and best-selling author, who has years of experience in the world of writing for children.
Hi, and welcome to the writing and Marketing Show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. It's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast, so it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to Episode 84 of the writer and Martin show with author entrepreneur Wendy H. Jones, what a pleasure to have you join me yet again this week. So what's been happening in the world this week, while I've been able to get out and about a bit more, which has been nice, and I'm planning a trip down to London, which I've booked. I'm going to be doing some research during the British Library, but I've also going to be using the archives at Chatham dockyard for research for one of my books. Being an author is so much fun, you get to do the most exciting things. As always, it's a pleasure to have. Have you joined me and it is a pleasure for me to do this. I love doing the show every week. However, if you would like to support the time I take out of my writing in order to the show, you can do so for just $3 a month@patreon.com forward slash Wendy h Jones. And I would be eternally grateful and it would let me know that you're enjoying what I'm doing. And you want me to continue past the 100th episode and beyond. So today we have Janet Wilson of darnay Publishing with us today. And we're going to be talking about writing children's books. So let's hear a little bit about Janet. Following her first husband's death in 2003, Janet Wilson began writing fiction for children see a gap in the market she set up her own publishing company down a publishing to produce Christian fiction for children and young adults. Danny is now an award winning company with a growing number of authors and successful titles. Janet married again in 2011, but keeps a previous name JM Evans for her novels. In response to requests for help from New authors. Janet also runs right for a reason.com to equip and encourage writers of fiction for the younger generation. When Johnson is not publishing, writing, speaking, teaching or dreaming, dreaming up new plots for stories, she can be found walking in the countryside, spending time with family and friends and helping at the local community fridge. She lives with her husband and extended family on the very edge of London where the urban landscape turns into trees and fields. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from Janet. And we have Janet with us. Welcome Janet.
Janet Wilson:Thank you very much for having me, Wendy. It's absolutely delightful to be here with you today.
Wendy Jones:Oh, it's absolutely My pleasure. I'm excited to hear from you because I love talking about children's books. So are you sitting comfortably? I am indeed. And where are you in the world?
Janet Wilson:I'm in London, the very, very south east corner. So almost Kent, but just in London.
Wendy Jones:Right? Well, I'm going to be down in your neck of the woods very soon, man because I'm going to steal a friend of mine in London. And I'm going down to Chatham dockyard to do some research for the book.
Unknown:Oh, yes. Not too far from us. It's a beautiful place. You'll enjoy it.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. Wow. I'm looking very much looking forward to it. So you're in a lovely area. So we're not here not here to chat about my trip to Chatham. Obviously, we're here to chat about you and writing for children. So can you tell us a bit about your writing and publishing journey? Yes,
Janet Wilson:Wendy, well, probably like a lot of your listeners. I was always a reader. And I think writers almost almost always are readers and read probably just about anything, which is what I did when I was a kid. And I remember, we used to take bags down to the library, mum and my sister myself, and used to come back through with our arms almost stretched out with all the books we'd read. And we'd all read each other's and if I run out of books, and I stopped reading my dad's The only thing that I did draw the line at completely was westerns. I was not a westerns, but everything else. I've read it, read it and read it. So I also made up stories for my sister beginning and then for my kids later on. And then as the kids grew up, and they wanted to read like chapter books, and we were Christian family. So we went along to church, and I couldn't find any books or Christian characters. There probably were some about but they were difficult to find. And I thought somebody really ought to do something about that. And I had a background in writing. I was doing articles for magazines, and what have you at that point? So I thought, well, I know what all right one and send it to publishers, but there weren't any publishers taking on Christian fiction at that particular time. So I thought somebody ought to do something about that too. And that's how it started.
Wendy Jones:Wow, I love it. I love any story that starts with reading, but one that finishes with publishing. Brilliant. And I love to take the bull by the horns attitude, because Okay, there's not there. I know what I'll do. I've started,
Janet Wilson:you know, well, Wendy, it wasn't quite as simple as that. Because in the middle of that, while I was thinking somebody really ought to do something about this, and my first husband died very, very suddenly, he contracted meningitis. And I was only 40, at the time, and children were obviously quite young. So I thought to myself, you know, it was quite, it was quite a call for me. And I was thinking, none of us know how long we've got in this world. And if we feel called to do something, now is the time and it was a big leap, I have to say it was a big leap. And it, it took me a while to kind of get myself back together and set everything up properly. So it was quite a long journey. And it was, it was a fun journey. It was an exciting journey, but a big learning curve.
Wendy Jones:I'm sure it was, I know the feeling to say, I have the greatest admiration for publishers. They're very patient. It is it is hard work. When do you isn't it? Yes, yes. So one of the things I've heard people say and just kind of cringe at the time, as writing for children is just like writing for adults. So the other thing I've had people say is, I will start with a kid's book, because it's easy. What would you say to people like that?
Janet Wilson:Well, that is that is quite something, isn't it? Now, it's not always wise to start with that one, isn't it? But for one thing, let's face it, we all find different things easy, don't wait. numbers for me, they just make my head in a spin, I'm just not very good with numbers, I do not find them easy. So when, when faced with a page of numbers, I'm not even very good at counting books, because I get to a certain point and realise that I'm thinking about a story. So we all find different things easy. But having said that, writing for children, if anything I would say is actually harder, maybe shorter, and not necessarily. But if an adult buys a book, or is given a book as a gift, they will tend to give it a really good go and work through it. Because they've invested something in it. Either they bought it themselves or somebody recommended it. So they want to carry on with a recommendation. Or if it's a gift, they feel I really ought to read this because so and so gave it to me, children had no such compulsion. So if you haven't engaged your children from the very beginning, they'll put the thing down and they'll never pick it up again. You have to be really, really sharp with your children's writing. If they don't like the characters, if there's not enough action at the beginning, you've lost them. So no, it's definitely not easier writing for children. Yeah, I mean, it does depend what you're good at, again, I say, you know, you might find writing for children easier than writing for adults. I certainly do. But you know, somebody else is a different gift, isn't it? But no, it's not easier. It's just different.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. Well, when I was asked to write children's books, and I was an adult author, and I kind of dropped a bit, you know, and thought, can I do this? I really did think seriously about it. Is this something I can do? Now, when I was asked to write a picture book covers like picture book. I used to be a children's nurse. So I've read a lot of children's books in my life, but not for a long time. But you know, I've managed it, but they are different processes, you have to engage different bits of your brain, that's for sure.
Janet Wilson:Definitely, definitely there are there are certain things that you need to be good at to write for children.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. So if someone listening here today is thinking about writing for children, whether they're an established writer already, or whether they're new to writing, what would be their starting point,
Janet Wilson:I would say Wendy, and it's very interesting that you said about you reading lots of children's books when you were a children's nurse because I think the very first thing that I would recommend that people do is to decide who to write for. So get your one reader we call it I run a writing course. And the first module is deciding who you're going to write for, to make sure that everything that you write is specific for your audience. So you're writing using the right language and sentence lengths, and you're writing things that they love. So decide who to write for. Read what they're reading, find out what what books they love. Read all those books and lots more besides and study stuff. rewriting. So get get get it so that you and reading will help you with that. So you know about characters and plot development, you know what to using at the beginning what you need to know at the end, narrative voice all those things so, but the very first thing is decide who you're going to write for. And all those things should fall into place within that. What you don't want to do is write a story and then say, What age group is this for? That's completely the wrong way around, and people do do it. So you might find then that you've got a plot, which is brilliant for 10 to 14 year olds, but the but the language is too simple, or vice versa. So finding out your ideal audience, your one reader, I think is a really good starting point.
Wendy Jones:Now, that's actually a very good advice, because I should say, I've seen people who have sent me manuscripts not to publish just to have a look at to see what I think. And usually friends of mine, I must say, and they've got a good book, but they go well, the storyline is meant for like teenagers, but the writing is meant for seven year olds.
Janet Wilson:Yeah, that just doesn't work. When do you does it doesn't work? Yeah. So but if you if you've got your one reader in mind, and you're very familiar with what what books they are enjoying and reading, you can do yours a little bit too much. So yes, you're right.
Wendy Jones:I mean, one of the things I I find difficult not difficult, but I know I have to watch for is that you want it to be in language that a child will understand this my picture books I'm talking about, but will also stretch them and help them develop?
Janet Wilson:Yes, definitely. Yes. It is. It's a balance for sure. So having a little bit of tricky language is excellent. And but you, especially if you're using a tricky word, then it's good idea to use it in a short sentence, isn't it rather than a long one?
Wendy Jones:Yeah. And then it does help them to expand their vocabulary. So it's a real joy to be able to do those sorts of things.
Janet Wilson:Yes, absolutely. And we're all learning all the time, aren't we? And that's part of the fun of reading, isn't it to expand your universe and, and go to places where you would never normally go to from your armchair? And language learning is definitely a part of that, too. Yeah, for sure.
Wendy Jones:I'm one of the things I find the most difficult when considering writing for children. There's so many different terms bandied about middle grade young adult picture books. I mean, even as an author, I get confused. So could you talk us through them in any others I haven't mentioned,
Janet Wilson:I'm sure there are so many different different words and different vocabulary, I wouldn't worry too much about that, honestly, I would have a look, if you want to write a book, have a look at the sort of books that you want to write and stick to that, copy that format. But just just very briefly, obviously, picture books are for generally under six to eight. And then chapter books will start from just perhaps five very simple chapters with a little bit of information in each one. And they will go on obviously to young adults 12 plus middle grade, you'd probably talk about kind of eight to 11. So primary school age. But honestly, children vary so much in their reading ability and what they enjoy reading about. So a child who may love nonfiction, like they would love to read a book about Michael Jackson, or fossil was or
Wendy Jones:dinosaurs.
Janet Wilson:They might, they might read something with hugely difficult vocabulary in it and almost like an adult book. But when it comes to stories, they want something really quite simple because that's the way their brain works. So you know, it is it is all a matter of who your audience is and what and what you're aiming for. So don't worry too much about all that vocabulary. Just write for your one reader, and you'll be fine.
Wendy Jones:It's good. It's good advice, actually. But when people come up to me when I'm doing book signings over what age is it for now go? Well, there's my first thought of 10 to 14 year olds, but obviously if they're a really good reader that younger than that, they can still read it because there's nothing in it they can't read are like 16 year olds like it sounds really to say yes, it
Janet Wilson:is difficult to say and a lot of adults actually love storybooks. My sister is a teacher for children. And she says she loves reading their books. she really enjoys them.
Wendy Jones:picture books, teachers love them, especially if they're in rain because it's fun.
Janet Wilson:Oh it is fun. And I love reading stories to my to my grandson's. It's great.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. Although I have to say most parents by the time they've got through the 17 rendition of one book and again,
Janet Wilson:we've got a we've got a favourite about pumpkin soup. And my youngest grandson absolutely adores that book. And my husband absolutely loads it. So if we start reading that one he's off.
Wendy Jones:The kids like, it's what carbs? Absolutely. So most genres that we talk about on the show have specific tropes and expected within the books. Are there any specific tropes for children's books?
Janet Wilson:Well, this is this really good question, actually, this, this, this whole thing of tropes, because I think it's changed a lot over the years. And in obviously, there's all the different genres for children in exactly the same way as there are for adults. So you know, the science fiction and the romance for the slightly older children, adventure stories, dramas, mysteries, crime sort of fiction, so you can have all those things for children too. And there are spies, lots of brilliant books on all these different sorts of things, and so much more Besides, so all the same tropes really, that you will get for adults, you can also get as children, for children, you know, writing for children. But I think it's it's changing a little bit now. So, where in times past you had a very definite goodies and baddies, and the baddies were very, very bad. And they got their comeuppance at the end. And the children were really good. You know, that's blurring quite a lot as we realise that, you know, nobody's all good and no bad, not bad. So there are definite variations within that. But the the whole the whole thing about, for example, I'm in the line of Christian fiction, and in the past, I think it was all quite, very sweet, you know, very, very friendly. And I still get people sometimes come back to me over one of the journey of publishing books, which is my my publishing company, and they say, we didn't like the language that was in that book. And it's not swearing. But it's, there's a line for example, in one of our books for girls, which caused somebody a pervy creep. Well, children, girl, our girls, all the girls who go to school will know all about pervy creeps. Yeah, but you've got to be you, you've got to be accessible to children, you've got to say as it is, you got to use their language. And so things have said things have certainly changed as time has gone by. And we love a little twist at the end, but it's when the body might change or that you know, the good he ends up being the battery or something. You can do what you can. I think imagination is a wonderful thing. And troops are probably well to be avoided.
Wendy Jones:Absolutely. The one and only thing I've really stuck to is the in my picture books that are not a model. But there's a story to help children move forward in Latin something even though they don't realise they're learning. So the first one is basically everybody loves you at home and home is best. And the second one is that if you are work together, things will be better to play it on federal. So you know, I think that's something that's still carrying on. Would
Janet Wilson:you agree? Oh, absolutely. And I don't think there's a truth. True. troops. I think they are truths, and wonderful, wonderful for the kids to be reminded of these, these these trades. They need to know it. Yeah, absolutely. Wendy? Yeah.
Wendy Jones:So you've just said alluded to it, you're a public, you're also a publisher of children's books. So what should a writer bear in mind when they approach a publisher with their manuscript?
Janet Wilson:Okay, well, number one, I would say, if you're going to approach any publisher, you need to do your research first. So check out make sure that your publisher, the publisher that you are approaching, actually takes on the sort of novel that you're writing or if you're writing nonfiction, that they take nonfiction, the length of words, the age group that you've written for, just do that little bit of research, because it'll save you a lot of time and, you know, sending the story and, you know, longing to hear and then find out that actually, they don't take picture books. I've actually sent back a manuscript today to a lady who's who sent us a picture book and we don't do picture books. So she's had to wait two or three weeks for her reply, and she could have found another publisher. So do your research carefully. Be patient. It's not. It's not something that publishers are getting paid for to read your your manuscript and They're taking it voluntarily. So be patient, it is a busy life. So they might not be able to get back to you straight away. And in actual fact, if you hadn't heard for a little while, it may be that it's been passed passed around a team. So it could be that no news is good news. So hang on. And if they do give feedback to you, if they if you do get it returned, and they give you some feedback, consider that feedback very carefully. Because they are the professionals. So they're much more likely to see from the outside. If there's a not even necessarily a mistake that you're making, but something that you haven't got quite right, or maybe the beginning or the end, or perhaps there's a longer bit in the middle, which ought to be a little bit shorter, or perhaps you've got some, not enough action in there. Or maybe your character is lacking a bit of strength or something like that. So if they do give you some feedback, do take it to heart and, and think about it carefully. I would also say, if you can afford it, do go to a manuscript criticism service First, find someone who does that for you, because it might save you a lot of heartache. These professionals can look at your manuscript from a professional eye, and they will see things that you may not see the wood for the trees, if you like, it's very difficult when you're you're close to your own story, necessarily to see things that aren't quite right. And they will help you get your story right. So that's absolutely perfect and ready to send to your publisher.
Wendy Jones:Brilliant, that's absolutely superb tips. And I'm going to ask you for some more tips. Now. I'm really okay, really, really pushing the envelope today, because I've got one here and I want to get knowledge and advice. Okay, go for it. Wendy, your top three tips for anyone considering writing a book for a child?
Janet Wilson:Oh, top three tips, right? Well, I've already said find your one reader, haven't I, so I won't count that one. So you've already got the bonus there. So number one, I would say you've got to have a sense of humour. Kids read for fun. And we do need to have fun in the stories. So you can have a very earnest novel. But it needs to be fun, you need to have, you need to have some amusing incidents. And at the very least, I'm not talking about necessarily laugh out loud, funny, although there's definitely a place for that. And the more of those, the better. But you do need to be able to add in some humour along the way in your story. So that would be top tip number one. And if you if you you're thinking now, I'm not really sure about that. Perhaps you better write for adults instead. Number two, get to know your readers really well. If you can possibly spend time with them. That's perfect. I know it's really difficult at the moment. But even if you can only do it via zoom or meeting in the park, perhaps cousins or nephews, nieces or whatever. Try and spend as much time and watch them. Watch how they interact with each other, watch how they interact with their parents and maybe even grandparents, and try and get to know them if you possibly can. What? What's the deeper thing? So what do they really care about? What do they really love? What are their aspirations for the future? What are they worried about? Because all these things you can include in your book, obviously, you won't be including all of these. But to be able to include things that really mean something to them is really important. We can all have a what we think is a brilliant idea for a book. But if it doesn't, if it doesn't mean anything to our target audience, it will fall on it may fall flat. So find out the things that they love. And yeah, try and get to know them as much as you can. Okay, tip three bush we have for this one, I think actually get some training. Get some books, do some courses. I know at the moment. There's not a lot in the way of writing weekends and what have you. But there is a reasonable amount of, of information around or even even on YouTube, you can pick up some tips. I run a a course called write for a reason. So the website is right for a reason.com with little hyphens between the right for a reason. So if you're a Christian and you want to write novels for kids, I would say sign up for the free writing tips do there's a course for beginning of your story. It's called gripping beginning That's completely free. But get the but get some training because you can write, write and write. And if you not, if there's something that isn't in it that isn't quite right, you'll have wasted that time. Whereas if you've got that little bit of knowledge beforehand, you can write so much better. And get straight in there with it. For example, things like narrative voice, if you don't really know about narrative voice, if you're thinking, What's that woman talking about, you probably need to get some training. If you don't know what's needed at the beginning of your story, if you don't know what, how to, to, to finish your story in a beautiful way, and get that twist in. Don't try and do it alone. You know, get that help that you need. So loads of books around. And I'm sure Wendy will have lots and lots of tips and information about how you can get that little bit of training that you need. So do that, I would say so. Those three. So sense of humour, get to know your readers and get yourself some training, and it's so much fun anyway.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, absolutely. Fabulous. Tips. And I would agree with every one of them. And you're right, it is fine. Have fun during the process. Yes, I will say fun. Absolutely. Yeah, you've got to love it. Well, you do this is it. Now I know. You're also an author. Janet, can you tell us about your books and a couple of the books from your publishing house?
Janet Wilson:Thank you for asking, Wendy. Yes. Well, I as I as I mentioned, near the beginning of our conversation, I started writing. I wrote a little crime novel. It's a little bit kind of Eenie, Blyton sort of Midsomer Murders without the murder. totally ridiculous, really. For kids from a church youth clubs, solve crimes, but it's good fun, and kids love it. So the characters are Christian. Well, they all go to church with their parents. So it just something completely different. And I think that's why children love it so much. I've, we've had several people say to this is the best book I've ever read. And I have no qualms at all that it's not the best, the best written the most exciting, but the fact that kids have actually found characters like them, is really exciting for them. They love it. So that's the treasure hunt. That was the first one a mystery in the snow. They're both actually out of print, but they're still available on Kindle. My writing name is J m Evans. That's j for Janet M for Mary and Evans. Because Evans was my previous name before I got remarried. And I stuck to that with the with my author name. So written a couple of others, but my latest one is year 33. So that's year 0033. I, I love this book. I poured a lot of myself into it. It's set in a dystopian future. After a war, plague and famine decimate the world's population. There's a New World Council set up. They build what's called areas for people to live in with schools and farming medical facilities and everything that you need for life, but religion is banned, and the protagonist Chela, she belongs to the underground church and then her best friend goes missing her her fiance is arrested and you know, things have to change. So this is the story of what happens to her. And I've been thinking about it for years and years and when the lockdown cover the one gun, I noticed before the lockdown, I finished it just before the lockdown came. I thought right? That's it. I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write this so that was Yes, it was I poured my heart into that book. I love it.
Wendy Jones:Wow, excellent. And is there any other others that you want to give a shout out to from your publishing stable or do you not want to choose any?
Janet Wilson:Oh? Oh, Wendy you know my heart is so difficult isn't it? how can how can you possibly pick but we have got some Eleanor Watkins. She's a brilliant author.
Wendy Jones:I was going to say Eleanor
Janet Wilson:Yeah, she a lot of your your listeners will probably know her books she must be about on her 50th book now. She's written a lovely book for us called nobodies dog which is for six to eight. So it's a chapter book with black and white illustrations in there. It's brilliant for new readers. It's what we call an easy read are talking earlier on about all these different this different vocabulary about the different uses and easy reader because it's for new readers. Oh, it's also great for family reading a bedtime stories. And it's all about Luke who has some. He sees a stray dog in a park and it's what happens to them and he's learning about trusting in God as The dog is learning to trust him and his friends. So it's a great book. I tell you one that's helping a lot of kids at the moment. And that's called deepest darkness. It's by Denise Hayward. And it's all about a girl who lives a life full of fear. So you can't kind of step out of this some kind of square that she's made for herself, she has a lot of night terrors, anxiety. And she goes on holiday with her family, which is a nightmare in itself. But while she's there, she meets someone who shows her that true light shines, even when it appears to be really dark. And she finds in prayer and in faith, just the beginnings of being able to move out. And it's a lovely story is a very kind of gentle story in one way. But it's quite powerful. So if any of your your listeners or have a child, those that are eight to 11 ish, who struggles with those kinds of issues, and there are so many of them at the moment. That is a lovely, really lovely book. Yeah. And another thing I would like to mention, actually, is that, including inclusion is very important to us. So we do have characters from all different kinds of ethnic backgrounds. So do take a look, if you if you'd like to.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. They all sound like great books. And you're right, Eleanor is a brilliant writer and a lovely lady, is indeed, yeah. So my very final question, because all interviews must end at some point. My listeners find out more about you and your books. Okay, when do you thank you so much for asking dernier publishing.com, or you can just look them up on any favourite bookstore,
Janet Wilson:you will find them our books there. So, DernierPublishing.com and write-for-a-reason.com So. write-for-a reason.com as I mentioned, it has all these little dashes in. Sadly, when I went to pick, pick the name without the dashes was already taken. So I had to I had to be a little bit inventive there. But you can find that all about the writing and the courses and lots and lots of free tips. There is a paid course that you can do as well. If you if that's something which appeals to you.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. Well, thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today. Janet.
Janet Wilson:It's an absolute delight, Wendy, always lovely to talk to you.
Wendy Jones:And you take care. Bye, bye. That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy h Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash Wendy h Jones. I'm also went h Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you've found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week and keep writing. Keep reading and keep learning