Leading With Hospitality & Bad Margaritas Are A Crime Against Summer

We catch up on bar life, then dig into the industry friction points that guests feel but rarely name out loud. We debate what’s happening to cocktail culture, why hospitality still matters most, and how trends like tip pooling and bourbon collecting are changing the game. 
• dive bartender skill versus the mixologist label and what it signals to guests 
• cocktail pricing creep and when the value stops matching the number 
• tip pooling pros and cons and how it changes guest intent and staff motivation 
• the service gap in restaurants and why fast acknowledgement beats perfect drinks 
• margarita balance, lime variability, dilution, and why tasting every build matters 
• bourbon demand shifts, distillery growth, collectors, and changing generational habits 

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bar Ninja Podcast. Please be sure to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast player and join the Bar Ninja Nation that has over seven thousand bartenders in it by going to www.barninja.com and you can enter your email until next time. 

Make sure to follow us on Instagram.com/barninja and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Also be sure to stop by the store at barninja.com to purchase a J Plate bottle opener to help keep the show on the air! Thanks for tuning in! Mike, Bill & Kayla

Transcript

Welcome And Bar Life Catch-Up

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey Bar Ninja Nation, welcome to the Bar Ninja Podcast, where we talk about everything from trials and tribulations, from life behind the bar, tips and tricks to make you a better bartender and a better drinker. Join your host, Bill Thornton, Michael Lee, and yours truly, Mike Garson. Let's go have some fucking fun.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I think I'm on. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_02 0:23

I can hear you.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

How's my audio?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Audio's good.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Is that my dog or your dog? It's your dog, right? Hey, you want to get on the podcast? Easy girl. So we have two, Bill. I haven't talked to you in a minute. Uh living the dream, my friend. Lake Life gearing up for this season here at the pond. Little Smith Mountain Lake. So our friends Ryan and Jacqueline got a new restaurant open, Coasters. So we're going to get them on the mic pretty soon. We had something scheduled, but it was the day before I think coasters opened, and they were like, we cannot, we do not have time. 24 hours out from open.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

They didn't buy that restaurant on the outer banks? No. Well, I was hoping they would have. Oh no. Somebody needs to. That whole salvo ways area needs a. They were weren't they looking at the old Top Dog Cafe, maybe? Maybe. Maybe that was it. I'm not sure. It's still for sale last time I drove by. Did you see the thing I put on Bar Ninja about the Bar Ninja podcast? Like the stats?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yo, it was insane. 3,000% this or something. I don't remember the exact show.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Crazy. Yeah, our audience was up 78%. We were top 10 show for 151 people. We received more shares than 80% of all other shows on Spotify, more comments than 78% of other shows on Spotify. And we were a 2025 Marathon show. Fans listen to us for longer than 84% of other podcasts on Spotify. And just general, because we have a five-figure amount of streams on it that were in the top, you know, 19% of all the two million podcasts. So we should do this more. People really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Definitely, yes. No, we definitely need to do it more.

Mixologist Labels And Cocktail Prices

SPEAKER_02 1:57

One controversial topic is if the mixologist labels ruining the bartending culture, what your thoughts of that is are. Well, I think if is a dive bartender more skilled than a mixologist is.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

And there's so much uh on my feeds anyway, there's just a lot of dive bartending that's kind of and don't get me wrong, and I think we've talked about this before. I don't I'm completely fine with the smoky old-fashioned and all the fancy stuff, but cold PBR and a cheap shot in a dive bar is as entertaining as some of your higher end stuff. And it seems like it's separating the industry.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah, it's weird, it's like polarizing. Because like some people are like, I don't, I can't tell the difference in a $12 cocktail and an $18 cocktail. Has that almost pushed too far where the cocktails are more than the entrees kind of question? I don't I don't know. I don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I was just I definitely think it's pushing a borderline because I mean you can go and get like even just like a basic cocktail menu at a nicer restaurant, like you are paying $18 for a single cocktail. And it's you know, it could be pretty much just like a fancier version of a gin and tonic, and it's eighteen dollars. I do I do think that there is like kind of a line. Um, because then you can still get a beer at least for like a reasonable price, but then it's still like eight to ten dollars, and it's it's like you know this is not this expensive. I can get a four-pack of like a nice beer for that at the store, and it's not even in a taller can.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

So and more power to the atmosphere and all of that, but yeah, I like yeah, I like a good craft cocktail. Same. It was just are some restaurants that aren't full craft cocktails kind of taking advantage of that price point without the exact same quality level. I think so. That was one, that was one article I read that was kind of controversial. Another

Tip Pooling And Who Earns Tips

SPEAKER_02 3:39

one is what do you guys feel about tip pooling? Good idea, bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

A lot of restaurants now are pooling tips, so that's a more team service behind the bar and behind the I can put like portside back in the day, uh 2000s, you know, two bartenders, one cook, two food runners with the number system, yeah, where we were, you know, you just hand a number, they run them the food. It was the most efficient, the most money I've ever made, you know, very tiki. And we were pulling so much in as bartenders, we're tipping 17-year-olds $400 a night. Now they've evolved, justifiably so, I think, to where they are pulling the tips. And I think it works well because that they've added servers, they've changed the business model to add some more cost, but the the owners really wanted that restaurant feel, which I get. But there's a point where if you're sharing like that, it's gonna, it just changes the whole dynamic. It changes the feel behind the wood for the bartenders, you know, and it's not a greed thing. But if a lot of owners I think, and I know of some not really around the lake, but they're just compensating being able to pay the kitchen less hourly because they're getting those tips.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah, I mean, I can argue it both ways because you know, I do believe in the team effort piece of it and like how people probably would work more collaboratively together, knowing that it's not just going to one person. But at the same time, I think that there is something to be said about like when you have a good relationship with a bartender or you're, you know, even just a server and you tip them a lot more than you would just average service. And if that's going elsewhere to somebody that didn't really necessarily deserve that tip, say that they weren't doing things behind the scenes, but the reason I gave somebody, you know, a 50% tip is because they were amazing, um, not because I wanted them to go share that with everybody. So I think I think you can definitely argue that both ways. I I don't know. I mean, also being in sales, like I'm like, work for your money. Like you are what you're worth, you know? Um, but and I think maybe there's other ways to incentivize team effort aside from like actually tip pulling. So if I had to like pick one side, I think that you earn your tips. Like you, you are what you're worth, like especially in that industry to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Yep, you are the product a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

I mean there's a two-legged drink is a product, but there's like it's like a triad, it's like a three-legged stool. It's like you you're the product, the food's the product, and the drink's the product. If any one of those threes are off or one of those three things is off, then it falls over.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Well, I will say if I go to a place though and the food and the drinks are average, but the service and the energy and the environment is off the charts, I'll 100% go back. 100%. Like, there's no way I won't go back. But like vice versa, if the food was great, the drinks were great, and the service was shitty, and I just like didn't like the environment, I can go find good food and drinks elsewhere. So there is something to be said about that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, and we all go to our certain bars and our watering holes, no matter if it's a higher end place or a dive bar to see George behind the bar or Tina behind the bar. You know, it's like, I'm really coming here because I'm gonna throw a 50% or whatever tip at you for the experience to have some laughs, figure out what's going on in your life, catch up with what's going on, you know, enjoy the entire atmosphere. So when that starts getting split out across the floor, it seems like it's changing the dynamic. Yeah, I'd agree. This is a good question for some of the owners, though, that we know.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Well, it's probably dependent on the size of the restaurant, too, as well, and you know, how many people you have on the floor, and whether you're tip pulling with the just the servers or the servers in the back front of the house and back of the house. So it's probably a little bit more complex question.

Hospitality Gaps And First Impressions

SPEAKER_02 7:09

But I've been watching uh Preston Lee. He's the guy that does a 30% rule. I might have sent that to you, Bill. He's teaming up. Will Ghidara. He wrote a book called Unreasonable Hospitality, and he like started the best work restaurant in the entire world. And you know, you almost have to watch him speak live. But Preston Lee has been teaming up with him, and those guys are really hitting the nail on the head with hospitality, like what you're saying, Kayla, and like the hospitality of it, and really treating every guest as an individual guest. I've been talking to his team, they have not confirmed. I'm sure he's very busy. Um, but he's the first one that had been talking about what we've been talking about on this podcast. We didn't even mean to like really hone in on this part of it. It was gonna be like mixology and all these different things, but the biggest problem with the restaurant industry and the bar industry was the service and hospitality side of it. We've been focusing on that, you know, pretty much since we started. And really there it was a gap in the I think it's why that podcast got so popular, is because it was kind of a gap in the market that needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

We also kind of started talking a lot more during COVID, right? When like there was a really big gap in the connection and the community that the bar does attract, right? Because now, too, some people go to bars and a lot of people aren't drinking. They're literally going for the the mocktails or just the community, the environment to connect, socialize, right? So I think we really ended up diving into that topic when we had no socialization. We were all locked up and like everyone's sort of really missing it. And it really is a component of bars that I think again, 100%. If if I go into a place and like that isn't the feels or the vibes or the people aren't greeting, like I'm not going back there. There's enough restaurants and places that I've gone to and I know people and like I want to be there compared to that experience. I think people, especially there's so many in Charlotte, there's so many new restaurants, so many new bars popping up. And if your service right off the bat isn't excellent, like I I can get over being a new restaurant and bar and having slow drinks, or you know, they might not be up to par. You're working on just the overall recipes and the foods are a little bit slower, like all that thing. Like I get that. But if the people that are there are not welcoming and greeting and being understanding and know the product, then like I'm not gonna come back. Like that that's you shouldn't open your doors at that point, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Yeah, it's what it's all about is the experience. And it's amazing how many places you walk into and don't get acknowledged, you know, in the first 30 seconds or minute. Like, like that's like the first impression is that like you are more important than me, and that I as a customer don't matter that much.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Burden principle. I had it the other day, it was a random place and just stepped in. It was by myself. Somebody I was with was doing something else, and I just I was like, Oh, hey, how you doing? And just walked right by me. And I was like, Well, I'm gonna walk up to the bar, and the bartender just on the other end talking to staff, and you know, it was five minutes, whatever it was before I was even spoken to. I was like, guys, what what are we doing here? Like, I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah, and I mean it's kind of crazy. So hopefully some of those owners will listen to this podcast. Take it to heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I still wouldn't stick with the bar ninja principle where I'm just gonna be the ninja in the bar that calls out everyone, especially difficult customers, and be like, but do that too, being like, hey, what are you doing? Pay attention, go be nice, like have fun with it, but just be like still need to get you on the TikToks, Bill. We do need to get on the table.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Maybe a TikTok card that takes you talkies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

I was

The Margarita Rule And Tasting Drinks

SPEAKER_01 10:35

thinking about I've run into a margarita principle. I'm not sure what the exact word is, where like from an outer banks angle, ge, like I keep getting bad margaritas, and it's driving me crazy. Because it's you know, it's well it falls back to I think that craft cocktail thing where um we've gotten too fancy, but not you know, like what's the new the spicy margaritas, they're great across the board, the jalapeno, the little flavor. And I can't remember what it was, but it was some kind of grass Rita that had a liqueur in it. And you know, then it's it's been where it's just more of a you know, like old school sours mix. And I'm not throwing any stones. I mean, we've slung thousands of margaritas with just uh your standard, you know, tequila triple.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

I mean, we used to yeah, it's acidic. I mean, like we would there's only three things in a yeah, there's only three things in margarita, right? It's the strong the tequila, the sweet, the simple syrup, and the lime. So it's like if it's off, it's one of those three things. You put a liqueur in there now or put too much sweet in there. And then if you put too much acid to balance the sweet, then you're gonna need more strong. You're gonna, you know, you might need a stronger pour of the tequila to balance that out. So it's yeah, it is important. I think one thing that people don't do a lot of time is when they make their drinks, especially if it's like a complex drink like that, like an altered or a riff on a margarita, you gotta take a straw full of it and taste it because it could be off.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Well, it's gotta be, you have to be, you know, I'm gonna say 3,000 margaritas a day, like in the prime. Like we're just throwing them out there. And if you do not have that dialed in, it it's it's really, and it's not been local so much at the lake, you know. Everybody's really got it dialed in. I've just hit it random places, and I'm like, you know, it's like you can get a genitonic because it's gonna be genitonic. You can get a Roman Coke because it's gonna be a Roman Coke. If margarita really falls under that standard, should be simply prepared, and it it has backfired on me more than that.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

It's like one of the five mother drinks, right? Like all cocktails, yeah. Margarita or an agroni, which is like a daiquiri, really. It's a daiquiri or an agroni, you know, it's the on the margaritas. Well, I don't know if I would do this on a margarita, but Toby that wrote uh bartender's manifesto, he has a thing where he always puts like just a little tiny bit of water in his cocktails because he feels like shaking doesn't give you if you're gonna drink it immediately, doesn't give you the right dilution. And we used to remember like with the margaritas at the lodge, the sour mix was too strong. So we would just hit that the fastest little glitch of soda water sometimes. Yeah, and Sprite. We use Sprite too, it's a tiki bar. Like a little bit of uh soda, and then some people do like a tiny splash of orange and a tiny splash of soda, just because I mean we were using garbage sour mix basically, just to try to make it a little better.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, um I kind of want to drop the brand, but I'm not gonna I I know I wasn't using it. I want to say it, but I'm not gonna say it.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Everybody made a lot of money. Everybody knows. We used it a lot. Couple brands, couple brands, going all the way back to Blacksburg for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yep. Like that soda splash, and this is really, I think, before we met and began the Nigerian Empire, it was Sprite in Blacksburg. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna hit this mix, hit it with Sprite to keep that limb in lime to cut it and just roll with literally the difference between an ounce and a half of tequila and two ounces of tequila will change the makeup of the cocktail. Like it's it was I'm not gonna say it was because I had a very uh long conversation with the bartender. It basically said, make it like this, which I'm not a fan of, but you know, we were we were having a good conversation about it, and yeah, you know, it's they had completely changed their entire understanding of what they were doing. And I'm like, Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Been behind the bar a couple years, but uh, I guess you know the big thing's taste the drinks. If you don't taste it, you don't know it's off. If you don't, you know, take a little straw before you serve it, you don't know if it needs something. That was a big thing in bartender's manifesto was if you're making a daiquiri, that lime, there's only you know a couple ingredients. You don't know how the lime is. Is the lime super sweet? Is it super acidic? So, like you might need to change the other ingredients to account for the fact the lime is a little different today. Oh, yeah, day to day taste it's then like alter it and then taste it one more time for a double check and then serve it.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I think about like cavo fish taco because they have every margarita doubt in so well, and that's from experience and and knowing what you have to do, so it's everything's made the exact same way. But like you're saying, the line can change because you have no control over your product like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

It's a good point. It's a good point, G. Yeah, perfect. Anything any other uh topics you guys want to uh riff on?

Bourbon Demand Drops And Collectors

SPEAKER_01 15:09

What about the bourbon?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Oh, it's crazy. Like implosion, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Like wait, I missed it.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Shut down the factory in Kentucky.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Oh, I did actually see that. Like, I thought that was fake news.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, no. It's like I've got like good friends of mine. Shout out Cameron Jordan, pink toilet guy, who's on a list and we'll be riding around getting work done. But we have to run to the ABC store because there's just been a text or an email sent out that this bottle's in, this bottle's in, that bottle's in. And it's not just Pappy, you know? Yeah, I I love it. And it it's just it's it's been kind of a very interesting thing to me to see so many people now have become collectors. It's it's I don't know if that's just kind of in my realm.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Like peep, there there's more distilleries too now. There used to not be distilleries, it was like a pretty big barrier to entry, like as far as getting a state license, and now there's like micro distilleries. Do you think it's less bourbon demand, or it's like craft brewing where it's been like people are drinking bourbon or the bourbon down the street instead of like Jim Beam? I mean, Jimmy I think that's hand in hand. You like is it total demand going down, or is it just like a changing market? They're not they're pausing all production in Claremont, Kentucky for all of 2026 because of falling demand.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

That's beam, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Um that's beam, and that's high inventory trade and tariffs too. Bottling and warehousing are still going on and they're not laying anybody off. They're just trying to stabilize inventory, but that's still interesting that that they're you know stopping production.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, and meanwhile, like you that comparison between the craft or the breweries and the smaller distilleries. And again, I bet that it's it's post-COVID, you know, that's everything shifted. So now, I mean, I seriously entertain Blind Bill's White Lightning for a while just to get in and launch the brand because I knew it would grow afterwards. And it really it's very entertaining to me to see so many people. Um you know, 22, 25 year olds going up to older and more successful, more retired that can afford more of the high-end stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

But that's what I was wondering. It's like, did Gen X and millennials grow up and they can afford better bottles? That's a factor. I really do. Z not pounding cheap liquor as much. I don't know. I don't know. I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

I mean, there is a big shift in like Gen Z not drinking at all. I know that. Yeah. Um, so I know there's a shift there, but I also do think like to your point, there is a shift of people wanting more localized things rather than like your big box brand. Like, even like I know, like if I'm gonna go buy a bottle of liquor, like I'm looking at other options rather than like your just like main brands because why not? Like, let's try something different. At this point, you can also Google, like, hey, this bottle looks pretty. Like, what is it? Right. And you can even like do your research on like, okay, what are some like new top-rated gins, or even so I I think there's just so many more options now than there used to be. And so there's like larger distributors, while they're still very prominent. I think that there's just more options, especially where like I think it's just a lot more like bourbon drinkers are a certain type of drinker, right? Like it's not, it's not everybody by any means.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Um, it's not the gin and tonic club, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

It's more of a like I was at the um, this is kind of yeah, I love a gin of tonic, but I was actually at the Coors Brewery this year and or like a couple months ago, and it was really cool to see. So I think something of that scale, right? And that's not bourbon, but I mean, they're not slowing down production. I mean, that's going constantly. So I think I think it just depends. I mean, I think bourbon is a really like niche type of drink too. Like, yeah, I I just don't I don't really drink it. I can have like I don't even know if I have if I had one bourbon or one whiskey right now, I don't know if that is the factor.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Like two glasses of a good bourbon, and you got a buzz going in.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

I think I would brown out. Like I have no idea what happened. Like I would just forget.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Gin and tequila all day. Give her some brown.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Gin and tequila, I'm fine with. I like the I like the taste to a certain extent.

Why Different Alcohol Hits Different

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Uh dry cider has been just wrecking me on like one eight percent dry cider can, and I'm just like, I feel like I've had six beers. Oh my god. It's just hilarious. I never had ciders, and like we have a couple cideries around here, and I was like, Oh, this is pretty good. And like on a hot day, it's like refreshing.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah, very refreshing. So it's funny.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

It's funny.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

I've seen ciders just destroy people on the boats out on the pond. I can imagine it's like, oh, they're so good, and you're slamming them like they're just this apple juice. All of a sudden, like three people are passed out on the floaty. It's like, all right, we got some food for the oh no.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah, it's amazing how like different alcohol hits different people in different ways. But so true. Yeah, that's crazy. Anything else you guys want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yeah, we need to do this more. We need to get a liquor rep on here. Just from what we're talking about right now, like we need to I'm gonna reach out to someone.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Thanks

Wrap-Up And Subscribe

SPEAKER_02 19:56

for listening to this episode of the Bar Ninja Podcast. Please be sure to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast player and join the Bar Ninja Nation that has over seven thousand bartenders in it by going to www.barninja.com and you can enter your email until next time.