%20copy.png)
Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion Podcast
Keeping it 101 is the podcast that helps our nerdy listeners make sense of religion. Why religion? Well, if you read the news, have a body, exist in public, or think about race, gender, class, ability, or sexuality, you likely also think about religion — even if you don’t know it yet. Let us show you why religion is both a lot more important and a little easier to understand than you might think. Put us in your earholes and let us show you why religion isn’t done with you — even if you’re done with religion.
Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion Podcast
Buddha’s Delight, Part 2
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We’re still working on letting go of desire — and we’ll never stop wanting to learn about Buddhism in Thailand with Dr. Tom Borchert.
Keywords: four noble truths; eightfold path
As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more!
____
Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.
This is Keeping It 101, a killjoy's introduction to religion podcast. For 2021-2022, our work is made possible through a Public Humanities Fellowship from the University of Vermont's Humanities Center. We're grateful to live, teach, and record on the current, ancestral, and unceded lands of the Abenaki, Wabenaki, and Aucocisco peoples. As always, you can find material ways to support indigenous communities on our website.
Megan Goodwin:What's up nerds? Hi, hello, I'm Megan Goodwin, a scholar of American religions, race, and gender.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Hi, hello, I'm Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst, a historian of religion, Islam, race and racialization, and South Asia. Well, well, well, we meet again, for the first time, for the last time, Megan.
Megan Goodwin:And still, your Schwartz is as big as mine!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Bigger, even, because today, we're ordering Buddha's Delight number two, and I'm just too excited to
Megan Goodwin:Last time, we ordered Buddha's Delight number even. one and we overwhelmed our nerds with Dr. Yujing Chen, and varieties of Buddhism and how it changes from place to place. AND we talked about the main theological and textual differences, like Mahayana and Theravada.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And THIS time, we promise to add even MORE definitions to the mix, like, for fun! As well as another fantastic guest expert.
Megan Goodwin:Definitions ARE fun, and who's joining us today?!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Well, as you surely know, it is my friend and colleague and current department chair, Dr. Thomas Borchert, who is just the best-- but beyond that, he's also an expert on Theravada Buddhist traditions of mainland Southeast Asia and the minorities of China, nationalism, and monastic orders. He also always has the best anecdotes (and perspective, and, like, advice, but that's neither here nor there).
Megan Goodwin:*giggles* We love a Tom! And we know that you will too, dear listeners. More for him later. But you know what, let's get to that later sooner! That's all we needed. A Druish princess. Funny, she doesn't look like THE LESSON PLAN!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Today, nerds, it's more of the same, but also a lot different! We are still stressing plurality, we are still talking divergences, we are still interrogating how and why Buddhism has a place in the world religions model. This time, we're going to focus on well-known Buddhist ideas and then stress how that actually works (or doesn't) in real life.
Megan Goodwin:Mm. So today's thesis is par for the course: religion, STILL imperial, still stresses texts, and those facts STILL mean that what people do isn't always visible in the world religions model. Never fear! That's where we-- and Dr. Borchert-- come in.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:The 101 on today-- *clicks tongue*--the section where we do professor work. Megan-- as usual, here we are, trying to show that there is some coherence to religions, while also showing that there is not as much coherence as textbooks, or Wikipedia, or simple words like "Buddhism" or "religion" would have us believe.
Megan Goodwin:Yeah, that-- that definitely sounds like us.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So, so great. Well, today, it seems*chuckles* like a way to get at all that might be to lean into the so-called common-knowledge about Buddhism. So, I don't know about you, but when I talked about Buddhism in my intro-level comparative or South Asian religions courses, a lot of my groovy-uvie students "know" things about Buddhism. They've seen Buddha--
Megan Goodwin:Possibly at a garden store, like one of those cute downtown Burlington hippie shops. I mean, you know how I love a mess. This sounds
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Exactly, exactly! So they've seen a Buddha, or they've heard of Nirvana, and they're babies, so they don't know if that's a religion thing or a band or a t-shirt from Urban Outfitters thing-- but maybe they can recognize phrases like "Four Noble Truths," or "Eight-fold Path" or "monk." Which is to say that I propose we tackle those words that are familiar, but not quite understood, and then mess 'em up with our usual brand of complicating, complexifying facts, figures, and maybe theories. delightful, if I don't say so myself! Uhhh, how about we start with the Four Noble Truths? Alright, fine. Do you want to join a jump in?
Megan Goodwin:Sure! Yeah. Let's swim in truths. Let's just keep swimming. Yes! The Four Noble Truths-- *Secret Word of the
Day!* are:suffering... is in innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara, or rebirth. So, basically, life is suffering and not just life, because we have to keep coming back to it. Suffering comes from craving, or attachment, or desire. You can end suffering by letting go of craving or attachment or desire, and the way that you do that is through the Noble Eightfold Path. So, traditionally and texturally, Buddhists see the Four Noble Truths as the first teachings of the Buddha, capital"B," and are considered the most important teachings.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Okay. I think it's important to say that this is important popularly-- like, the ideas about Four Noble Truths show up in cultural spaces and ideas and media, and they're textual.
Megan Goodwin:Mhm, mhm.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:But as Dr. Chen told us in the last episode, and as Dr. Borchert is going to tell us later on in this episode, Buddhists regularly identify as Buddhists without being rigidly attuned to texts, or even quoting these Four Boble Truths in, like, their daily life.
Megan Goodwin:Mhm. Absolutely! But the thing is, in the world religions model we're stuck with texts. *sighs* And one of the most textual things about the world religions model is ALSO to prioritize origins, and early writings, and the so-called"fundamentals" of a religion. Which means that "Four Noble Truths" gets repeated a lot, gets featured heavily in textbooks about Buddhas, the encyclopedia pages. Here's the thing, though, Ilyse. Knowing this textual list of four things doesn't actually tell us how Buddhists make sense of these truths, how they show up in people's lives, how they affect how they live, or, like, why-- beyond labeling the first teachings of the Buddha-- why the Four Noble Truths would, like, matter to Buddhists.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So... so h-h-how do the Four Noble Truths show up? Because they're in... they're in every textbook I've ever perused.
Megan Goodwin:Uh huh, uh huh. Yeah!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:They're often, like, on the first page of, like, pop-Buddhism books...*groans*
Megan Goodwin:Yep. Yep. Yeah, and like, let's not dismiss the part where the Four Noble Truths are an easy test question. I... So, anyway. I'm gonna cheat and move us to the Eightfold Path, because that sort of answers your question.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I'm sorry. I-I'll allow this...*blows raspberry* but that's a double term word score in our audible scrabble game, I just now made up, because *I* said,"What are the Four Noble Truths?" and you said, "What about Eightfold Path?"
Megan Goodwin:Yes, I did.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So, there's like a math, or a factorial, or, like, a square root thing happening here, and I'm gonna give you the leeway, but, girl, you better get back to where we're going!
Megan Goodwin:It's a classic misdirect, but stick with me. You're not wrong, you're not wrong. Okay. So, I am going to get us back to where we are going! But right there, right in the Four Noble Truths, it says that the way to break suffering and end the cycle of rebirth, samsara, is to follow the Eightfold Path. So, it's not even cheating. So there. While I am no Buddism expert, it's pretty clear to me that this is one of the places we'll find the"what Buddhists do" stuff you know I'm craving.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Well, if that's not a punt-- alright, I got you.
Megan Goodwin:Thank you.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:The Eightfold Path-- *Secret Word of the Day!* --is, yes, listed within the Four Noble Truths, and to be really basic, they are the way that you-- a Buddhist, here-- would go from the regular, trapped, endlessly reborn, to freed from samsara, or the cycles of rebirth, to nirvana, or nibbana, the liberation from this cycle. And that's assuming that Buddhists
Megan Goodwin:Okay! are obsessed with this-- which, as Dr. Borchert will tell us later, that's debatable-- but let's go with the textbook for a second. Usually, this Eightfold Path is described as right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right union. And you can't tell, but I held up all of my fingers for all eight, and what's funnier there is that I wrote that in the script and didn't read ahead and actually held up all of my fingers.*laughs*
A Little Bit Leave It:Famously productive for an audio medium.
Megan Goodwin:--an audio medium. Sure is. It sure is!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:But that seems simple, right? Right view, right resolve, right speech. Simple enough.
Megan Goodwin:Mhm, mhm, mhm. I like all the alliteration, I like the repetition. This seems easy and straightforward, except... uh, what actually is right resolve or right speech? How do I know if I'm doing it? I know *I* often do NOT act right, so I also have SEVERAL questions with regard to right conduct. I am wondering if this allegedly simple list is maybe not actually simple at all...?
A Little Bit Leave It:Yeah.
Megan Goodwin:Mmm.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I ALSO have questions for you about right conduct.
Megan Goodwin:*cracks up*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:The thing about simple is that it usually takes a lot of work to make it look so simple, as, like, a universal truth, perhaps. As we've seen it in other religious traditions so far in this mega-season, simple usually means "there's a billion ways people make sense of something deceptively easy in their real, messy ass life.
Megan Goodwin:Yeah, yeah.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So-- So, okay. Let's see if we can flesh out what these eight deceptively, allegedly, probably-not-simple steps on the path might be, which, to be clear, means making it way more complicated.
Megan Goodwin:I knew it. I felt this catch in my bones. I KNEW
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I guess I'm sorry... it!
Megan Goodwin:No you're not.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:But I'm not, I'm not. So, okay. Remember in the last episode, we talked about different kinds of Buddhism, like Zen, or Pure Land, or Theravada?
Megan Goodwin:I do! I do. But in case YOU, dear nerds, do NOT remember, we basically said that Buddhism, like all other religions, is an umbrella term. And there's all sorts of smaller units within that big category, ways that Buddhists organize themselves around teachings, around priorities, around textual canon, and of course, around region and language. Duh. Like, we might not expect to find certain forms of Chinese Buddhism to be widespread in, I don't know, Japan!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah, that checks out. That's how culture, and maps, and travel, and time work. So, Buddhism has all these ways of approaching itself, or... let's say, the Eightfold Path, here, with equally complicated histories and internal debates. Which means...
Megan Goodwin:Noooo, okay. So, you're gonna say that the way you GET the Four Noble Truths is dependent upon how you DO the Eightfold Path, which is itself dependent upon the ways you might be a Buddhist?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Is that a real question? Because I'm not sure how to answer that. It sounds like you're accusing me, but also, I'm guilty, and... I don't know how to proceed. Which is to say, there's a ton to say here. Uh, so, adding to our game of misdirection, let's talk about monks and nuns!
Megan Goodwin:What is-- what monks and nuns?! What?!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Monks and nuns! In part because of our
guest experts:Dr. Chen from last episode IS a Mahayana Buddhist nun, and Dr. Borchert researches Buddhist monks in Thailand-- this formal entering onto the Path, the Eightfold Path, with formal training and texts and rule-following-- but also, as we'll hear just in a little bit, with so many workarounds and interpretations and things that seem, frankly, not at all like rule following.
Megan Goodwin:Alright, okay. Monks and nuns sounds like some Christianity, and maybe especially Catholicism, and aren't we, like, violating our"let's not use Christian words to explain non-Christian traditions" thing?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Um, okay. So, I'm saying "monks" and"nuns," which are admittedly drawing on Christian and Catholic terms. If my Sanskrit holds, I believe the actual term is bhikṣu, which refers to folks in the sangha, another Sanskrit-origin word that itself refers to an assembly, an order, a community, a company. Sangha is one of those words, nerds, that shows up across Asia with different meanings-- but... like, literally, in India, we use it to talk about the congress sometimes-- like, but within Buddhism, it usually refers specifically to an ascetic or a monastic community. It is a formal way, the Sangha, for an initiate-- a monk or a nun, that is-- to enter into the path, and that path looks different depending on where you are, when you are, what sort of Buddhism you follow. So even though we're saying "monk" and"nun," and that sounds like Catholicism, it's super, really super important for you and our nerds to hear that this does not actually look like the Church, at all. Like, in zero ways. Because for starters, there's no central authority in Buddhism. There is no Pope. There is no church. Which means: these monastic orders can and do vary widely and wildly, without being deviant or rogue, or frankly, even all that special. It's just... different, as, like, a factual difference.
Megan Goodwin:Huh! Alright, alright. Tell me more! I am curious about what monks do, since this is, in theory, our whole premise? What do the monks do, and how does that relate to what Buddhists do?
A Little Bit Leave It:Alright. I'm gonna say out loud, and with feeling, that at least 80% of what I know about monks comes directly from years of contact knowledge with today's guest,
Megan Goodwin:Love that. Love that for us. Dr. Borchert.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So, we're getting him through multiple avenues this time around. What I have learned is that monastic orders serve social roles, maybe even more so than theological ones.
Megan Goodwin:Okay!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:They are meant to be examples to their community about what a Buddhist looks like, like, in a physical way, like a performative way, but also in, like, a ideological way. They're meant to preserve Buddhism and its doctrines (which I'm using, but has taken on all sorts of flavor as the world changes), even internally and externally, and even within the same sangha, or Buddhist order. And the thing I've learned most from Tom is that monks serve as fields of merit. Which is to say, they give the laity, or non-- uh, folks NOT in the monastic orders, opportunities to make merit, to earn merit, by the practices of gifts and almsgiving. So, in return for their material supportive gifts, monks and nuns live austerely in the path of the Buddha, with study, or good behavior, and meditation among the usual obligations and expectations of the people in that monastic order.
Megan Goodwin:Okay, so my Catholic brain just did a thing where like, they're the opposite of an occasion to sin. It's like, here's an occasion to do a good thing, and, it's this monk.
A Little Bit Leave It:I guess so. I don't know from Catholicism. That sounds correct.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I guess the answer to your
Megan Goodwin:Okay! question, then, is, like, why any of this matters to mainstream non-monastic Buddhists is something like
this:It's a place where we see formal initiation after years, sometimes-- well, actually, that ranges but-- after a period of being a novice, it's a place where we see formal initiation into the leadership of a community, as well as how monks play around with those boundaries. Which is not to call communities liberal or progressive, nor is it to call them conservative or austere necessarily, but how monks go about living within these, like, ascetic communities tells us a lot about how these rules and texts can be interpreted, but also messed with.
Megan Goodwin:Huh. Okay. I'm gonna need an example, obviously.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Alright. So, how's this: some monks and nuns have, like, a regular family. They're not celibate, they're not, like, living lives of complete deprivation, they have a family. They have jobs! They work and exist in the world! So, like, here's my job, and here's me in my monk clothes.
Megan Goodwin:Huh!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Some initiation periods are long, maybe even lifelong, right? So you spend quite a lot of your life being a novice, then you become inducted, and then, that's who you are for the rest of your life. But others are weeks, at most! Like, I went through the process, I've become, like, ordained. I'm out of here after 14 days. So the idea here, or what I'm trying to
Megan Goodwin:Wow. get at, is that... there's almost an expectation that you'd have lived a life before, or that you live a life again, or that you live a life alongside also being a monk, radically depending on where you are, and when you are, and custom. So, relevant to our interests, Megan-- and I mean ours, like, you and me, because who cares about these nerds listening?-- there have been a bunch of stories in the last few years about Buddhist monks who are also playing with gender norms-- most notably, Kodo Nishimura from Japan, who is a drag queen, a makeup artist, and a Buddhist monk--*emphatically* YEEESS.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:--who has been in the public eye for quite some time. So, I've seen articles about him from as early as 2016-17, and there's been quite a lot of features on him more recently, as both drag and Buddhism kind of come more into popular imagination. So, I'll link to that in the show notes, obviously. But then similarly, there's also Sorrawee "Jazz" Nattees, who is a Thai drag queen, as well as a Theravada Buddhist monk. So, this isn't just, like, one dude
Megan Goodwin:Uh, okay. in one place who is this exception. There's a few examples of these, and again, they've become popular media touchstones, I think, because it challenges our assumption of what Buddhists, and what Buddhist monks, and what monks, broadly, and also what religious people-- uh... I'm going to put this in big quotes-- "should" look like. Mmm, mmm. Okay. I'm, like, immediately obsessed with this, and also, remember how I/we learned about political unrest in Thailand last summer because we follow queens from Drag Race Thailand on Twitter? Truly, what is an internet?
A Little Bit Leave It:I mean, like, unclear, what is an internet, but think all the gods for Pangina Heels.
Megan Goodwin:Foreal!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Okay. So like, drag monks. Check. There's also my favorite Buddhist nun, who appears on Netflix's "Chef's Table," Jeong Kwna, who's a Korean Buddhist nun.
Megan Goodwin:Okay.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I recommended her episode, like, in the first season of the podcast, but let me tell you a little bit more about her because I'm obsessed. So, Korean temple cuisine is a whole-ass established genre of food in Korean cooking. So, I have a bunch of Korean cookbooks and each one is like "okay, here's Korean food, here's street food. Also, here's temple food."
Megan Goodwin:Huh!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Jeong Kwan is a renowned chef. Like, this Netflix show "Chef's Table" is a show about famous French, michelin starred chefs, and here they all are in her monastery watching her shave a lotus root with rapt attention as she explains how food is more than nourishment, and how cooking and gardening and composting, like, can be and should be meditative.
Megan Goodwin:Huh!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So, my favorite part of this whole documentary episode is when she says, and I'm going to read the quote because I'm gonna get it wrong: "With food, we can share and communicate our emotions. It's that mindset of sharing that is really what you're eating. There is no difference between cooking and pursuing Buddha's way." All of which is to say that monks and nuns are both unique Buddhists. So, like, obviously not all Buddhists are monastic initiates. They're also in relationship to the communities they serve, the eras we find ourselves in, and, like, they can be drag queens and celebrity chefs.
Megan Goodwin:That's rad. Okay, so what I hear you saying, then, is that these monastic orders are a formal way for folks to enter into the Eightfold Path-- and commit to things like right action, right effort, right mindfulness, so on and so on. But even if, when we hear"monastic order," we hear something like "ascetic with no ties to a public life," you're telling us that there are renowned chefs and drag queens among these initiates! Which, since I know you, is a way for you to tell us that A.) maybe monastic life isn't what we think it is, and B.) even within the formal, sometimes rigid, structure of monastic orders, there are multiple ways for Buddhists to be Buddhist and do Buddhism. Cooking as meditation isn't what I thought we would land on, but hey! I learned something!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I'm so glad!
Megan Goodwin:I love it when that happens!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I guess that's as good a place as any to let Dr. Borchert have his say. Dr. Thomas Borchert is Professor and
Megan Goodwin:Yes, please. Chair of Religion at my home base, the University of Vermont. We'll cite his many articles and books in homework, but his expertise is on religion and politics, monastic education, transnational Buddhist networks, and the legal systems that govern religious actors in Asia(both religious and secular). Hit it, Tom! *giggles**giggles*
Dr. Thomas Borchert:My name is Thomas Borchert, and I'm an expert on religion and politics in Asia, especially about the lives of Buddhist monks in Thailand and China: the way they're educated, the institutions they live in, and their space in society. I care that folks, students, scholars, my mom, know about what I study because the religious lives of people are so much more interesting than the stripped down, austere visions of Buddhist monks and novices that we often have. One thing that I wish people knew about Buddhism-- people assume that Buddhists are nice people, but really, they're just people who intersect with a particular set of traditions. They don't wake up and think, "How do I get to Nirvana?" Not even most monks or nuns. I mean, some probably do, but most folks just live their lives. Being Buddhist is one aspect of people's identities, but it intersects with many more, including nationality, race and/or ethnicity, gender, being a Clevelander, being a Bangkokian, etc. This doesn't make Buddhists less devout than other people, it just makes them people. There is SO much diversity within Buddhist traditions. People worship or pay their respects to different Buddhas or bodhisattvas, people view Buddha's very differently. Some of them view the Buddha in a singular way as a human, some of them view them as these transcendent beings that go beyond the human. The importance of ordained renuncians that we-- the folks that we normally call nuns or monks varies across the Buddhist world. In some places, they're central to the Buddhist community. In other places, not so much. The role of Buddhism in the governance of countries and in the, you know, in the images of nation-states varies. There's just so much diversity. Buddhism has never had a central authority that enforced standards, that enforced codes, that enforced orthodoxies across time and space. That is, a Buddhist version of the Vatican has never existed. And so, significant diversity is developed over time. Let me give you an example. In Thailand, Buddhist leaders are primarily men who have, quote unquote,"left home." They've gone from home into homelessness. They're monks. They shave their heads. They follow 227 precepts, which restrict their activities in certain ways: talking about when they can eat, and what they can eat, and how they should dress, and who they can interact with and so forth. In Japan, Buddhist leaders are women and men whose primary role is taking care of a community, often, but not solely, in the performance of funerals, and commemorative rites for the dead. These folks, who we'd normally call in English "priests," can be married, they can have children, and they can drink alcohol. So, you've got-- you've got people who are Buddhist leaders in two different countries who live radically different lives. And you can find this kind of diversity everywhere across the Buddhist world. There's not really any single holiday or ritual that all Buddhists practice or follow. There is a holiday called vesak, which refers to a commemoration of the birth of the historical Buddha, his Nirvana, you know, his attaining awakening and also his death, which, within the bud-- within many Buddhist traditions are viewed as having happened on the same day of the year, in the month of vesak. But honestly, you know, while most Buddhist countries celebrate the guy that we call the historical Buddha, they don't do it all in the same way or at the same time, even. What's interesting to me, though, is that vesak has become a much more universal holiday, having become recognized by the United Nations, and there are now Buddhist universities, particularly in Southeast Asia, that organize conferences to celebrate this day. But in some ways, this is more interesting, because it's at least partly about Buddhists becoming-- you know, in Thailand or in Vietnam-- about Buddhists becoming aware of how, quote unquote, "religions" or "world religions" act. That,you know, we can, we can see another manifestation of this in Singapore, where the government recognizes different religions as having-- and different ethnicities-- as having a holiday that is special to them. So, for example, Christians get to celebrate Christmas as a national holiday in Singapore. And for Buddhists, vesak is their special holiday. But again, this is about Buddhism becoming kind of framed inside a world religions paradigm. Now, there is one thing that I think is-- that is interesting, that is a unique tradition that is distinctive within the part of the Buddhist world that I study, which is that there is a practice of temporary ordination. Men-- and it's primarily men-- in Theravada Buddhism, which is normally associated with mainland Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka, will become a monk for a short period of time, ranging usually from two weeks, to three months, to an entire lifetime. And in that period of time, they take on the full responsibility of being monks, they shave their heads, they wear their-- they wear robes, they don't eat after noon, and they are supposed to, you know, follow all of those rules. And then, when they decide that they're done-- and they may decide that they're done for any number of reasons-- they simply have to say, "I renounce being a monk," essentially, in the presence of another monk. And then they, they're disrobed! But this is interesting because, in Thailand, and Laos, and in Southwest China, where I do work, they-- becoming a monk has become a central part of becoming a proper man in society. So, people in Southwest China have have told me that it used to be the case that if you wanted to get married, at some point in your life, you had to first become a monk, because that was how you became, you know, a full, proper, civilized adult. But again, that's primarily associated with Southeast Asia and not with other parts of the Buddhist world. The main way that people view Buddhism within world religions-- I think there are two things that I would-- that I would point to. One, that this is a philosophy and not really a religion. That it's a philosophy based on the reduction of suffering, and that Buddhists are very, very peaceful people. Part of this comes from the idea, you know, the ideas from from Max Weber, that Buddhist monks and nuns were people who were focused on other worldly ascetic practices, and so, monks and nuns are primarily focused on attaining nirvana, you know, which means, essentially, escape from the wheel of samsara, and are not really focused on the contemporary world. The world religions paradigm also emphasizes texts, and, you know, the teachings of the Buddha, and ignores what people do, how Buddhists have acted over the years. So, you know, in classic Keeping It 101 paradigms, world religion's notions of Buddhism are NOT concerned with what people do. But this is, this is, this ends up being really stupid, actually, because it creates this idea that there are bad monks, or bad people, or bad nuns who don't do, quote unquote, "what the Buddha taught." When it's people who are just doing things, who are living their lives, who are following the things that their parents taught them, or they're not. And, you know, as a result, the world religions paradigm-- this emphasis on Buddhism as a philosophy that's very peaceful, that monks and nuns are always focused on attaining nirvana, and that the teachings of the Buddha are the most interesting things and the most important things about Buddhism-- this gives us a really crappy lens for understanding how people who understand themselves to be Buddhist, act, live, understand themselves in the world. You know, consistent with what I've been saying here about the diversity of Buddhism and the need to think about Buddhists as people, as people first, and as Buddhists, second, third, fourth, whatever-- there are a lot of things that we might think about, there are a lot of experiences and anecdotes that I've had while doing research in Thailand, and Singapore, and Southeast Asia-- even in Japan, when I was working there after college-- which essentially kind of point to the problem of thinking Buddhists do one thing, and failing to recognize who they are: that they are people. You know, I have a colleague who is a Chinese monk, and Chinese monks are supposed to be vegetarian, and I was having a meal with him once in Singapore, and we were just chatting about things and I think my older son was there, and he asked-- my son asked him what kind of food he liked to eat. And he said, "I like Hawaiian pizza." And he said, "Whenever he goes to talk with one of his colleagues--" sorry, "with one of his followers, he always asks this follower to get him a Hawaiian pizza after he gives them a sermon," which is, you know, funny because he's a vegetarian monk and Hawaiian pizza has ham on it. We might also talk about when the same son was was one year old, I was living in China and doing research on monastic education, and I was always struck by how much fun the the monks and the novices at the temple that I was doing research at had playing with my son. They would dress him up as a novice monk; when he got, you know, wet or dirty, they would throw him in the air, they would do all sorts of things that indicated that little kids were really important, and they were people to be played with, and to be loved and respected. In other words, monks and nuns and novices are not people who are simply focused on the cessation of suffering and escaping this world. They were-- they were, you know, people who liked people. But I think that, for me, one of the most important, kind of, moments of this kind of a thing was when I was-- before I started graduate study. I was living in Chiang Mai, in northern Thailand, and I was teaching English at a monastic high school. So, all the students were young men who are novices, who are going to high school in a monastery. And so, part of the day, you know, like three classes out of their day, would be focused on science, and math, and Thai literature, and English (and that's what I was teaching) and two or three periods of the day would be focused on them studying the teachings of the Buddha. And I had lived in Japan for two years teaching English, I was teaching English at this monastic high school in exchange for living in a temple for free. I had studied Buddhism in college, or, you know, in a couple of classes, and I thought it was fascinating and I was really attracted to the philosophy of it all... and one day after class, these three monks, novices, so they were like, 18-19, maybe 17, they came up to me, and they said,, "Mr. Tom, can we talk to you for a minute?" And I'm like, "Sure, of course!" And I get really excited, because I think that we're going to have some kind of really rich conversation about what Buddhism is, and what it's like to be a novice, and why they ordained, and, like, what their goals as monks and novices were, and stuff like this, and the young man turns to me very seriously and he says, "Do you know the song, 'I Swear' by All For One?" And these three young men break into harmony singing,"I swear by the sun and the moon in the sky," or whatever the words are. You know, it was really nice! They sounded great, really good harmonies! And I was gobsmacked, because monks and novices don't listen to music, do they? They don't... they don't... sing, they're not supposed to sing! That's one of the precepts they're supposed to, like, not attend to things like this! But they were like 17-18 year old kids, and this was a really popular song on! In fact, I had no idea! I'd never heard this song before, because I was living in a temple in Thailand without access to a radio, or TV, or anything like this, let alone the internet. And this was really important for me because, at this moment, I started to really realize that"Wait, these are kids! Young men. They're grown up, they have interests. They are novice monks, but they're also really focused on their lives, whatever their lives, you know, might be, whatever their interests might be." And so, I was seeing them in the wrong way. I was seeing them primarily as religious actors, rather than seeing them as people who also engaged in religious activities.
Megan Goodwin:Okay. Tom has the best stories. I am so glad you cajoled him onto the pod, and... he sang for us?! He's-- I-- I am undone. This is the best.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I know. I really lucked out with my brilliant REL comrades at UVM. And while both I and my husband, Kevin, would listen to Tom doing his rendition of "I Swear" all day, what I love about this 90s R&B throwback hit, is what it tells us about Buddhism and what Buddhists do! So, here is Tom trying to, like, figure out Buddhism and his younger version of himself, and what his students-- these novice monks-- cared about was American pop music, because even monks love a slow jam.
Megan Goodwin:I mean, obviously. Just perfection. Perfection through and through. So, I am hearing Dr. Borchert saying, as well, that a lot of what we've been saying-- we can't really make sense of Buddhism with only texts, or even primarily text, which is exactly what the world religions model wants us to do and what we have been pushing back against all along. I heard Dr. Borchert saying repeatedly that the nation-state one lives in matters, for obvious governance and mediation reasons, but also for, like, norms and social life. I certainly didn't realize that in some places, to be a man, to be marriageable, becoming a monk, like, even for a short time, would be the way to do it. That's-- my Catholic brain is like, "That is backwards!" That's not, but clearly, my Catholic brain is imperial.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs*
Megan Goodwin:It is! Like,"That's wrong because not Catholic." Which is funny, as someone who's not Catholic, but that's how they get you. Anyway, thinking about religious initiation as a stepping stone to civic engagement (like, marriage or, like, being a fully-fledged adult within systems that privilege cishet marriages) is wild beyond what we in the states think religion is or does.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah. Yeah! No, like, as always, the company we keep makes us a little bit smarter. So thanks, Tom!
Megan Goodwin:Yeah, foreal! And now it's time to move on to... A Little Bit, Leave It!
A Little Bit Leave It:*A Little Bit, Leave It*
Megan Goodwin:Where we share a little bit to leave you with. So yeah, once again, I am struck by how my understandings of how non-Christian religion works in the world have been shaped by Christian terms and frameworks. So, this is a great place to remember that monasticism is so much older, so much more, than Christianity, and so much different than how I have been trained to think about it, specifically within Catholicism.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah, I love that. So, I guess I'll
leave you with the obvious:the world religions paradigm centers texts, which means that a lot of what's common knowledge-- common phrases, like Four Noble Truths, or Eightfold Path, or nirvana-- about Buddhism reflects these texts, reflects canon, even if those very things, frankly, vary in importance to the lived lives of Buddhists. Buddhism is what Buddhists do, regardless of the connection to what has become popularized or well-known in the Western or world religions contexts. And as Dr. Borchert pointed out, there's not that many Buddhists rolling around really, like, fixated on achieving nirvana and breaking the pattern of samsara.
Megan Goodwin:Mm. And we learned that some of what Buddhist monks do is slow jams from the 90s and/or drag! Love it.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*giggles*
Megan Goodwin:Well, if you don't know, now you know!
If You Don't Know, Now You Know:*If You Don't Know, Now You Know!*
Megan Goodwin:The segment in which we get one factoid each. Okay, so a thing that we have kind of talked around but not really dug into is that lots of folks, particularly in South Asia or Southeast Asia, practice Buddhism alongside other religions and traditions. So, Dr. Jolyon Thomas talked about Buddhism and Shinto being practiced together in Japan, for example, in Episode 402 of this very season! But one of my all-time favorite examples of seeing this in practice is the ancestor shrine in my local Vietnamese restaurant. So, huge chipper Buddha in the middle, but also pictures and offerings to beloved ancestors, and because it's New England, the offerings usually include Dunkin Donuts coffee. I just... I love it so much!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*chuckles* Everybody, including the Buddha, runs on Dunkin!
Megan Goodwin:Yeah, for real. Bonus factoid! I am pretty sure I learned Buddhism existed because of "The King and I." Very Yul Brenner. Yeah, foreal foreal. Very Yul Brenner promising Buddha he would build the tiresome English woman a house, a small domicile ajoining the palace, you are welcome... end of factoids.
A Little Bit Leave It:Oh boy.
Megan Goodwin:*chuckles*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I refuse to dance all night.
Megan Goodwin:*cackles* Shall we dance, dance all night? I'm not even getting into it.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:No, we're not. Anyway! Okay. What's my "If You Don't Know, Now You Know?" Alright! So, sometimes, all these divisions we've talked about don't hold at all in real life. So, in Penang, Malaysia, where I once took a vacation from when I was doing archival work in India, has this, like, unreal, stunning Buddhist temple called Kek Lok Si. Yeah. I think it's the largest Buddhist temple in Malaysia, where Buddhism is the second largest religion(after Islam), and it is famous for these 10,000 Buddhas. So there's, like, 10,000 statues of Buddha, as well as this huge-- I mean, like, MASSIVE statue of Guanyin, a female bodhisattva, also who is known as the goddess of mercy.
Megan Goodwin:Sure! Sure, sure, sure. Thanks, thanks. I love her!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So like, on this hike I'm on, because Penang is this, like, mountainous little island, and you're, like, hiking all the way up, and our tour guide and my hilarious field notes-- like, this is a vacation but I still have field notes, like, what the hell-- that my field notes that I've looked up for this, which are like hilarious and written in, like, when-my-fingers-worked handwriting, I wrote "Mahayana, My factoid is that Kek Lok Si is Theravada, and traditional Chinese ritual-- the gang's all here!" So I guess my factoid is to undo all of the previous minutes of this podcast. one example of what I'm sure are many where multiple forms of Buddhism, as well as other kinds of traditions and influences coexist, even in one place, because what is that, nerds? Say
it with me:context, history, language, and region matter!!!
Megan Goodwin:Yes. Well on that note, don't pack up your stuff yet, nerds. It is time for homework!
Simpsons:*Homework?!*
Megan Goodwin:As always, we've got citations, references, other goodies, and transcripts stashed at keepingit101.com for every single episode. Check it out! It's dot com.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs* Alright, then. Let's assign Tom. So, you should read Thomas Borchert. He is, frankly, nearly prolific. He produces so much work, and it's always great. I'm going to keep it together, but, as you can tell, I respect the hell out of him and enjoy him and learn so much from him. So, I am a ride or die friend.
Megan Goodwin:Yes!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And also a stan. So, first and foremost, buy, or read, or get your hands on his book,
"Educating Monks:Minority Buddhism on China's Southwest Border." And if you don't have access to that book, which is out with the University of Hawaii press, I will link you to a podcast episode about it.
Megan Goodwin:Rad.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:You can also read his edited volume called "Theravada Buddhism in Colonial Contexts," which has so many things I love, like colonization--
Megan Goodwin:I was gonna say, you just love that.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And also, there's the Herculean effort that Tom put in to wrangle scholars from not the United States, with different forms of expertise, right? So PhDs, and monks, and-- like, all in one volume. So it's a really great volume, but a little bit expensive, so ask your University library to pick it up or ILL it from your local library.
Megan Goodwin:Love that!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Then there's an article called "Belt
and Road Buddhists:Religion Making and the Rebuilding of Minority Buddhism in the Reform Era," which is in the Journal of Review of Religion and Chinese society. There's one of my favorite things that he's written, which is called "Bad Gifts, Community Standards, and the Disciplining of Theravāda Monks" in the Journal of Contemporary Religion, and it's all about, like, when is a gift bad, and why do monks still have
to accept it? Spoiler alert:it is about drinking, even though one is not supposed to drink. It's fascinating stuff. But an early, early, early version of him playing around with this article showed up on the Religion department's blog, so I will also link to that. And then, very recently, my last Tom stan moment-- Tom had a piece come out in The Conversation, titled "Why Buddhist monks collect alms and visit households even in times of social distancing," which is about COVID, religion, and what people do.
Megan Goodwin:That's interesting.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:I've got three other recs. So, first and foremost is Donald Swearer's"Becoming the Buddha: The Ritual and Image Consecration in Thailand." It's a great, classic kind of book from an old professor of mine. There's Alexander Hsu's work on medieval Chinese text. There's a YouTube clip that I've got, in case all this reading isn't your jam, nerds. I've got a really great interview with Kodo Nishimura by Tony McNicol, called "This Monk Wears Heels," and it's all about this Japanese Buddhist monk who is a makeup artist and a drag queen, and it's a really great-- it's a great read in Tricycle.
Megan Goodwin:Nice! Cool. Cool, cool, cool. I do not have nearly so many recommendations today because I don't know that many things about Buddhism, but! I am sure it is deeply dated, but I still use clips from PBS's "The Buddha," which is narrated by Richard Gere (which is hilarious to me, and my students don't understand why I think it's funny because they don't know who Richard Gere is, because I am old). I have found the bits about the life of the Buddha and the interviews with Buddhist monks and nuns about the practice of meditation particularly useful in teaching, so I'll pull out those clips. In conversations about Buddhism in my global religions class, we always include kind of a quick background on the Rohingya genocide, which is still happening in Myanmar. We talked about this a bit in our Smart Grrl Summer episode on religious nationalism, so you can go back and check that out if you want to learn more. But I also have links to helpful explainers on the situation. Mostly, I just try to make sure that my students don't leave class thinking Buddhism (or any religion, for that matter) is only and everywhere a religion of peace. Because, you know, killjoy. Big thanks to those of you writing reviews on iTunes, Amazon, and Google. It really helps. And, if you want to be Nerd of the Week, write us a review! That's how we can see your silly handle, you sillies!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Join us next time for more HISTORY OF THE WORLD (RELIGIONS) PART 1, when we chat more about Zoroastrianism, and are helped out by guest expert Kainaz Amaria.
Megan Goodwin:Shoutout to our research assistant, Alex Castellano, whose transcription work makes this pod accessible, and therefore, awesome. Need more religion nerderie? You know you do, and you know where to find us. The answer, as always, is Twitter.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:You can find Megan on Twitter basically all day, every day,@mpgPhD, and you can find me@ProfIRMF. You can also find the show @KeepingIt_101. Find the website at keepingit101.com. Check us out on Instagram! And with that, peace out, nerds!
Megan Goodwin:Do your homework! It's on the syllabus
Bonus Ending:*I Swear* by Stinger
