White Evangelicalism Racism with Dr. Anthea Butler

Guest lecture chat with Prof. Anthea Butler, possibly the public face of why you need to care about religion in the US? Most recently the author of White Evangelical Racism (UNC 2021).

As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more!

____
Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 0:17

This is Keeping It 101, a killjoy's introduction to religion podcast. This season our work is made possible in part through a generous grant from the New England Humanities Consortium, with additional support from the University of Vermont's Humanities Center. We are grateful to live, teach, and record on the ancestral and unseeded lands of the Abenaki, Wabenaki, and Aucocisco peoples, and our guest is coming to us from the lands of the Lenni Lenape.

Megan Goodwin: 0:40

What's up, nerds? Hi, hello, I'm Megan Goodwin, a scholar of American religions, race and gender.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 0:45

Hi, hello, I'm Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst, a historian of religion, Islam, race and racialization, and South Asia.

Megan Goodwin: 0:51

Ilyse, we need to we need to just jump in because I'm too starstruck, just- just do the thing? Please?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 0:56

Alright, in that case, Hi, Dr. Butler. Before- before we get into it, would you prefer to be called Anthea or Dr. Butler today?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 1:05

Well, since I tried to sign in and say I was the biggest bitch in the world, Anthea wi

Megan Goodwin: 1:11

I mean, we're happy to address you as Dr. Bitch if that's...

Dr. Anthea Butler: 1:14

It's probably- some people after they read my book will say I'm the biggest bitch in the world, but let's just go with Anthea for the podcast. I think that's gonna be worth it.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 1:21

That is perfect. Well, it's great to have you here.

Megan Goodwin: 1:25

Yes ma'am!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 1:25

I like to have you all here too. And just for the record, you know, we've all had these conversations about how you should be addressed, but Ilyse and Megan can call me Anthea, because we have a relationship A), and B) you know, it's all Professor ladies here. And you know, we're going to be easy with each other. And we're not going to do this formal white guy stuff. So let's just put that out there right now.

Megan Goodwin: 1:45

Okay, I love that. But also Ilyse makes me introduce you formally in the next paragraph.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 1:49

Okay, that's fine.

Megan Goodwin: 1:50

But no I'll just do it real quick and then we can get it over with. So, introducing you formally, Dr. Anthea Butler is Associate Professor of religious studies and Africana Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. She is, I think prolific is maybe putting it mildly, but she is a prolific public scholar who writes and appears regularly in places like the BBC, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, Washington Post, you-

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 2:12

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 2:13

All of that. She is the president-elect of the American Society of Church History, which is really exciting, I mean, for the church history folks, like, I'm so excited to see how that sh- I'm just excited about it. Okay, anyway, recent winner of a LUCE grant for the Crossroads Project along with Drs. Judith Weisenfeld and Lerone Martin, which is the creation of a digital platform and scholarly hub for the study of black religious histories and cultures. And the author of frankly, just too many articles to name. But her newest book is coming out just as this episode drops, it is entitled "White Evangelical Racism," it's coming out through UNC press and it is a must read.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 2:51

We could easily chat with her about anything, but this new book is why we were dying to have her on. So without further formality, please give a loud round of applause (as you fold your laundry?) for Dr. Anthea Butler. Welcome to the pod officially, we're so glad you're here.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 3:09

I'm really glad to be here, thanks. And you

Megan Goodwin: 3:09

Yay. know, as my laundry sits on the bed right now unfolded, you know, if any of you would like to come over and fold it, I woul b

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 3:21

My office is actually shared with my laundry room, like, behind these doors is my laundry. So we like to call this the most productive room in the house.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 3:30

That's really great. Probably is the cleanest room of the house too, right?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 3:35

Ehh, depends on the day. I'm an academic, there's books everywhere, but...just off camera.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 3:41

Yeah, well, you know, that's how it goes. Yeah. It's alright.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 3:49

Let's jump into the 101: ON TODAY, the segment where we do Professor work. Okay, so Anthea, let's get started. We are asking everyone on this season, what is- what is their most basic, most important takeaway that you would want our listeners to know about what you do? Or in other words, what's the 101?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 4:14

The 101 is- the first thing I think is really important to say about me, is that please don't call me a theologian. That really affects me. I hate it. I'm a historian. And I'm a historian of African American and American religious history, the 101 is that I like to use the history that I've learned about and really appreciate, to think about present day events. And so my- I think my career, especially in the last 12 years since I've been at Penn, has been about a merger of thinking about 19th and 20th century history and the present, how are these things working out in real time? And how do we engage the public about them? And when I say public, I don't mean just our students, I mean, public, public, public, like everybody. And- and I've had a chance to engage everybody, so I think that- that's what's important about me, is that I don't just think about myself as being an ivory tower. Although my detractors like to say, the black Ivy League professor, as though that is some kind of an epithet. But yeah, there you go.

Megan Goodwin: 5:16

Can I ask a follow up question? I'm realizing- so I think all of us who work on religion are used to being, like assumed to be theologians, like on a plane, people want to ask you like, okay, what's your church? What- But is that more prevalent if you work on African American

Dr. Anthea Butler: 5:33

Yes, yes, yes. Because everybody has a- religions? has a sort of way in which they look at you, they look at you and think, oh, you must be Baptist. So in my first book,"Women in the Church of God in Christ," the first person who ever wrote a review of the book said, "she is a sympathetic insider," and I'm like, I'm not COGIC (Church of God in Christ) and I'm glad to have you fo led, because that means I wro e a really good book. And that I could write that from the viewpo nt of sounding like I was n the denomina

Megan Goodwin: 5:58

Yeah, yeah, I guess this is yet another space where just racism and white supremacy lurk in the Academy that I just haven't ever had to think about, like, of course, oh, if you're working about black religion, of course, it's confessional. Of course, it's theology.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 6:10

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 6:11

Gross. Sorry.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 6:12

It's not. It's not, it's not.

Megan Goodwin: 6:15

Cool.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 6:16

I- I hadn't thought about that with your work, because I get the opposite as a white woman who does not have a Muslim-coded name. In Islamic Studies, folks assume that I'm the "good" Islamisist, because I'm like,"objective and an outsider" whereas folks who are racialized, usually, frankly, like as brown and certainly Muslim women get this more than Muslim men, but they get the like, "oh, you're a confessionalist, you are just doing theology." Whereas I get to do somehow, like "pure" Islamic Studies, which, our listeners can't see my face, but there's eyeroll galore, because that's nonsense.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 6:59

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a- it's a thing, it really is a thing. And I think it's something in our field that, you know, we don't often address very much, but those of us who inhabit certain kinds of bodies, and those bodies look a certain way, have to deal with that.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 7:12

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 7:12

Yeah. Well, that's gross. We've already gotten a little bit of a sense of what's at stake in your project, but I love- I love the"public, public, public," place. So can you help us understand what's at stake in thinking critically about white evangelical racism? What is important about the work that you're doing, not just in classrooms, but beyond, like, what Ilyse likes to call"egghead spaces" and "nerdy conferences"?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 7:37

I think for"White Evangelical Racism"- and this is something that's already started, when I decided to write the book, it really came out of previous research that I had done on Sarah Palin, a long time back, and- and that all went away, because she kind of went south, right?

Megan Goodwin: 7:52

Thank goodness.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 7:52

But I went to an evangelical seminary, I went to Fuller [Theological Seminary]. And, you know, and for a time was evangelical, as you will see in the book, if you read, you know, that part. And one of the things that I thought was that it was really important for people to understand this history of racism. And this history of racism, that evangelicals don't like to talk about at all, because they like to think of themselves as great abolitionists and, you know, great cultural leaders. And,"oh, you know, we've repented of our racism, because we had events!" and I'm like, "events ain't enough, alright?" And- and so, you know, we tend to sort of think now that because of Trump, that, you know, "oh, evangelical somehow just became racist." No. They've been racist. They've been racist for a long time. And that's gonna hurt a lot of evangelicals to hear that message, you know, but I think it's a really important one. And I can think about, you know, my book as being a part of the sort of a new trajectory, and the study of American religion and evangelicalism, and if people like Kristin Kobes Du Mez, and, you know, others like Andrew Whitehead, and there's just a whole slew of books right now, that are kind of trying to deal with this in certain ways. But I think where mine is different, is that it's always been white people talking about evangelicalism, and nobody Black has ever written about evangelicalism. And I think that one of the surprising things about my career personally, is that people don't expect me to be that person talking about evangelicalism and knowing that evangelical history and I know it pretty well, so yeah, I think it this is an important piece of this and what was the broader question about the field or- I want to make sure I got that right.

Megan Goodwin: 9:27

No, I think you- I think you hit it on the head but I- we spend a lot of time with folks who talk about why their research is important in the Academy and it's great to be able to say like "I'm the first person that has done this work" although that- I should not be shocked by that, but...

Dr. Anthea Butler: 9:40

Yeah, I mean, I think people, you know, I want to mention Robert Jones here because he's writing about it from his own personal, you know, relationship with it, he'd grown up Southern Baptist, and doing it. I think what's different about me is hearing from somebody else. And I mean Jemar Tisby has written this again, he's still working on his PhD which is really great, but I think what we have to do now is sort of hit this in a different way. And I think, you know, just to say, how this is more broadly important, not just for the Academy, but I think the general reader will want to read this book. It's because it has a lot to do with the political. And for, you know, for people who are just thinking, this is a book about religion. It really isn't. It's a book about religion and politics, and how these moral issues work together with political leanings to turn into something else.

Megan Goodwin: 10:27

Yeah, we spend a lot of time yelling on the pod about how religion and politics in the US specifically are not actually separate at all.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 10:35

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 10:36

So this sounds like a great resource for anybody who maybe was surprised to see quite so many crosses and Christian paraphernalia show up, I don't know, at the Capitol on the sixth of January this year. Ugh.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 10:49

Alongside that, you know, that scaffolding and the, you know, the hangman's noose and everything else it had.

Megan Goodwin: 10:54

Ugh, yes, ma'am.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 10:56

Because this is a 101 moment, I'm wondering, Anthea, if you could tell us a little bit more about why evangelicalism? Is there something unique about this particular sort of Christianity? Is this just about the US? Give us a little bit more on why this particular group or set of groups, how would you- how would you explain on in that 101 way?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 11:19

The message should go out and preach the gospel except it got distorted. And I think that's the most basic way to say it, if you use the word, "evangelikos," you know, in Greek, it means, you know, "to go out, to- to- to spread" to do all that stuff, right?

Megan Goodwin: 11:32

See? See? I quoted the Scripture, I told you!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 11:35

Yeah, you quoted scripture. And- but in

Megan Goodwin: 11:35

Yeah. Well, and that actually leads beautifully the 19th century, that means different things for different people. Some people mean- that means evangelizing in your local neighborhood, or whatever, some people had the missionary impulse, which goes along with the civilizing impulse of the late 19th century. And then in the 20th century, when we think about a figure like Billy Graham, that is not just about, you know, evangelizing, but also evangelizing to a certain kind of political and social perspective too. And so while, you know, we talked about Billy Graham as an evangelist, and I use him for an example, because everybody knows him, he's a really good example. I think that, you know, you just don't think about- you might think about him as being this great evangelist who died, but he also was the friend to presidents, and also, you know, spoke out a lot against communism and all of that. Why is this important? Well, it's important for a couple of reasons. One is that evangelicalism is big around the world, it is an expansive movement. When I talk about evangelicals, I'm not just talking about, you know, those mainline folks in Grand Rapids, Michigan, who go to Calvin College, and, you know, the Senator Dorton and all tha stuff. I'm talking abou Pentecostals, too, who are lik Church of God in Christ an other big churches, you know that are around. I'm talkin about people who might be an non- denominon nondenominational churches, wh are, you know, puttin themselves in this space o"we're Bible believing" and al of that. I'm thinking abou Southern Baptists. I'm thinkin about Church of God in Christ I'm thinking about people lik TD Jakes, I'm thinking abou people like, Paula White, yo know, I mean, need I say more Now, let's talk about this on global level. On a global level this is really important because- I'm going to pose it i a different way for you in th way that I like to talk abou it, which is, the contes between Catholicism an Protestantism in certain place like Latin America, Centra America, and others where, yo know, people have gone to b evangelicals because they go introduced to the prosperit gospel, being in places lik Brazil or others, or in Nigeria or in Ghana, or in all thes other places, right? And so whe you think about evangelicalis there, it has a predominantl kind o Pentecostal/prosperity/charismati slant to it. And I think tha that's really important to cal that evangelical, too, becaus those diff- definitions ar different. If we want to mov into the Asian complex, yo know, in terms of the Pacifi Rim and all that, then we hav to start thinking about, yo know, things like what used t be Paul Yungi Cho [now Davi Yonggi Cho] (but he changed hi name, and I always forget it because I always think about hi as his old name) in Korea an all these bigger, you know Pentecostal churches of Korea. also think about Korea Presbyterians and Methodist like that, too, going down al the way to Australia, Ne Zealand to think about, yo know, Hillsong. Hillsong is a evangelical Church, Hillsong i all about evangelicalism and yo know, whether or not they'r trying to, you know, bring in Justin Bieber or someone else you know, their brand o evangelicalism is a littl different because they're doin something different and it' predominantly about music an culture and, and all those kind of things in the church. S evangelicalism is somethin that's worldwide. The way tha it plays out in America, though is very different. I won't even say very different. I'm just g ing to say that it has certain ind of contours in the Amer can context that it might not ave in other conte into the follow up question that we had, which was, if we're thinking about white evangelical racism, What- what is especially or uniquely American about the racism part? Do we see that white evangelical racism play out globally as well? How are they the same? How are they different?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 15:09

Okay, so I think what's uniquely American about is that it comes out of this, you know, history of slavery in this country, and the connections between Christians and slavery. If I'm thinking about, I'm forgetting the author's name right now, the book "Christian Slavery [by Katharine Gerbner], and-

Megan Goodwin: 15:23

By Gerbner?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 15:24

Gerbner- yeah, I think, I can't remember uh, hopefully, you'll have it up on the- on the podcast-

Megan Goodwin: 15:28

Yes ma'am.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 15:29

I just forget, I forget her... But, um, yeah, it's a really good book to think about the beginnings of all of that, right? And how do- you know, how do enslaved Africans become Christians? And how is that imposed upon people, right? So I think what's different in the American context is slavery. And outgrowth of all of that in terms of how we think about it. In a global context, I think it's really connected to missions. And I- and I think about a book like Melani McAlister's book about issions, and, you know, sort of 950s and 60s. But, I think here's another part of that- nd to think about the ways in hich religion and media have layed a big role in the spread

Megan Goodwin: 16:04

Big business, super big business. f evangelical- American style f evangelicalism- around the orld with televangelists, and eople like that. And I think hat's been sort of really verlooked in our field, about ow people think about that, and hat the roles are. So, you now, where I will talk about illy Graham, this will make my rad student very happy, but I hink Billy Graham is important, ut I think Oral Roberts is qually important. I think, you now, somebody like Reverend Ike s really important. I think hat these figures are people ho have given us a certain kind

Dr. Anthea Butler: 16:34

That is a super big business, and it is f thing, right, you know? In erms of evangelicalism, that as become really important. And robably a very big figure, in erms of thinking about what the orld is like of evangelicalism, s honestly- it's somebody, a ame that you probably don't ear on here very much, is C. eter Wagner, and somebody that became acquainted with when I as at Fuller Seminary in asadena, who really came up ith this whole idea about ominionism, and spiritual arfare, and all of these things. And that's- also a lot of the foundational stuff that we see whether that was at the Capitol at the insurrection, or the kinds of ways in which Donald Trump built a following. And people say evangelicalism, but I'm like, but he had a certain kind of evangelicalism. And you need to understand it, and the rest of them just kind of got drugged in and I think, what evangelicals in America don't realize is that I'm like, I'm sorry, but the people you thought that were like, the unwashed, are now the people who are running evangelicalism. And you may- you probably have an aesthetic problem with that.

Megan Goodwin: 17:44

Yeah, it's such a weird political moment for so many reasons. But watching, you know, charismatic preachers on national TV call on African angels to involve themselves in American elections. It's just- well, and I think one of the things that we've seen really come home is folks treat the, I think your phrase was "the unwashed," as though they're unusual or marginal, or just not that common and they've really been brought center in the last three or four years. I mean-

Dr. Anthea Butler: 18:19

Yeah, yeah, and they fit really well in with the QAnon stuff and everything else. And it's all about, you know, there's these prophecies, I mean, you know, we're taping this at the end of February, but the beginning of March is supposed to be like, you know, this is the day that, you know, Donald Trump is going to come back and take over and he'll be reestablished as president and all this. And there's a sense of which this prophetic kind of thing that happens for these types of evangelicals who are in the Pentecostal movement and everything, it really fits in well with Q, I mean, I hate to say it, but it does. Right? And so people can, you know, hook on to that and say, it's part of my faith. I don't have to worry about it. You know? And yeah, it has- it has ramifications.

Megan Goodwin: 18:58

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also just fits into this persecution narrative that we keep seeing emerge too, right? That bizarre moment of, we're electing the second-ever Catholic president, but we're talking- and we're establishing a Catholic super majority on the Supreme Court. But we keep talking about how anti-Catholic the US is, because nobody was supporting Amy Coney Barrett in the way that we should be...

Dr. Anthea Butler: 19:19

Yeah, yeah. And the bishops are like, you know, this is where I'm gonna just take my time out for a minute and just say, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, for the most part, is just absolutely horrendous.

Megan Goodwin: 19:28

YES!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 19:29

And their political- their political activity has been horrendous.

Megan Goodwin: 19:32

YES!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 19:33

And you know, not all of them. But you know, I- I just think that they need to shut up right now. I really do-

Megan Goodwin: 19:39

YES!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 19:39

You know, this whole thing about what "we don't know if we're gonna give him communion or not, and we don't know this, we're gonna we're gonna issue out the statement-" I'm just like, Are you stupid? You know, there's Jesuits in DC and Georgetown who will give him communion- Biden communion whenever he wants. It doesn't matter what you say. It doesn't matter what you do. And what, you know, and all of the stuff that happened in the election, you know, I just need to say this out loud- say very clearly, I think that Catholics- many American Catholic Bishops have become evangelicalism themselves. And so they have a huge problem because they're not really Catholic anymore. And they need to think about that because their political activity has made them siding with evangelicals, because ostensibly it's supposed to be about abortion, but it's really not about abortion. It's about power.

Megan Goodwin: 20:25

Yes, ma'am.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 20:25

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 20:26

Sorry. I'm so excited right now, I have a whole chapter in my book about Catholic and evangelical cobelligerents. And that blurring of the line between Catholics and evangelicals since the 70s, and up through today has been just fascinating, and also really terrible and horrible. And also, I feel like we maybe need a T shirt that says, "Dr. Baddest Bitch in the game to US Conference of

Catholic Bishops: 20:46

shut up."

Dr. Anthea Butler: 20:49

They're not gonna answer- they're not gonna answer me anyways so it doesn't matter.

Megan Goodwin: 20:53

I'm just making t-shirts!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 20:54

I just- I just want them to just- like, I really want them to think about the damage that they're doing, and what- you know, and how they need to think about the things that they say, are really pulling their people into a space in which they're not getti- they don't know what Catholic doctrine is because their bishops don't know it. You know, that I never thought I'd be a doctrinal, you know, supporter, but I'm just like, you know, I think we have this thing in Catholicism about, you know- supposed to be preferential option for the poor(they'd hate me to say that, because, you know, that's liberation theology) but- but I think, you know, Jesus would have had a preferential option- has a preferential option for the poor. And that's not what they have.

Megan Goodwin: 21:30

No, no, I feel like there's a bunch of stories where Jesus likes the poor people, and then the bishops are real mad about that.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 21:36

Even I know some of those stories.

Megan Goodwin: 21:39

Because we made you, sorry about colonialism.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 21:41

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 21:49

Can I ask a follow up 101 question for our listeners?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 21:52

Sure.

Megan Goodwin: 21:53

If we're talking about evangelicals, are we always talking about Protestants?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 21:58

Not always, but that's my definition. Because I feel like you can be- you can be a Catholic evangelical. I mean, as you can see, from the ways in which Catholics embrace it, even though it's not doctrinal, but that's a cultural kind of definition and not a theological definition. If we're talking about theology, then that's a different ballgame. Right? And so I would want to- I would say, for the general public's knowledge, a Catholic is a Catholic, and an evangelical is an evangelical, right? And sometimes they come together on some things, and sometimes they don't.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 22:28

Can I ask another 101 follow up question?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 22:32

Sure.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 22:32

Is the history of enslavement and racism in the United States the reason that when we hear'evangelical' we think, "white folk" or "white Protestant folk," because I know that when I talk with, like, folks like my parents who are these like, you know, well-meaning Jewish people from New York, who are like,"yeah, evangelicals equal white people." So explaining to them that evangelicalism has different iterations around the world, I bet will blow their minds, because that doesn't make sense.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 23:01

Yeah.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 23:02

So I'm curious if you could say more about that.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 23:05

Sure, and I could say it very simply, media. I mean- you know, you- I mean, you can't just- I don't think we've really explored the ways in which the media has cast evangelicalism as white in the 70s and beyond. If I go back to- if I think about- think it was in '76, when they had this, you know, big Time Magazine expose on evangelicals, most of those people were white. And, you know, when we talk about the Moral Majority, all those things in- ro- and the relationship to Ronald Reagan and all that, this is when it gets to be right. If you want to push back earlier, you can think about even just, you know, Billy Graham going around everywhere, you- I mean, you know, there's no way you could say King was an evangelical, let's say, right? But you could say a lot of black Baptists were evangelical, in terms of their beliefs, and everything, where they never get called evangelicals because of their voting habits, right? And so the ways in which, you know, black Christians may vote, they might not say, "Well, you know, I might be pro-life, but I'm voting Democrat, because I'm voting about some different issues," right? They never get considered to be evangelical. Now, one thing I do say in the book, and I'll pick on this person, specifically, is that one of the things that started happening is that, you know, evangelicals started reaching during the Trump campaign and the Trump presidency, to say,"Well, you know, evangelicals are all colors, Asian Americans, blacks, Latino, Latinx," you know, it was like, they were ready to dra- bring everybody into that evangelical fold, right? But that was to hide the racism. And so one of the people who did that, you know, was Sojourners, guy, Jim Wallace. He's like, "you know what, evangelicals are all different kinds of colors", when you see the white guy do that, that means that they are trying to bring everybody in so it doesn't make white people look bad. Okay? And that's- that's not the thing here. The thing here is, there's a reason why evangelicals got called white because they, you know, they wanted to be white, and they want the whiteness and they want people within evangelicalism to be like white people. I talk about this in my book, I talk about the cultural issues about singing and all this, like,"it's great if you bring that gospel singing in, but you know, we'd really like you to just like behave like white people." And that would be easier. And so I think that's an important part of evangelicalism is that it wants to subsume you under evangelical culture, which is a culture of whiteness in a certain kind of way. And that way, you can't- you can't be who you are, unless you accept all of that politically, socially, morally, everything. And even with the moral stuff, we know that that's a bunk anyway, because it means that men get away with stuff all the time, and women can't do anything.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 25:43

So what I hear you saying, first of all, is awesome. I'm like, so excited about this book. And, as our listeners know, I'm a South Asianist, I don't- I don't- really, I'm not supposed to care about the United States. But I'm excited about this book. But what I hear you saying is that evangelicalism is one of these- it's a word that has Venn diagrams in it already because it's assuming political definitions, cultural definitions, racial definitions, and then also nuances within Christianity. And so it sounds like what your book is doing is taking us through all of those different aspects to get at this issue of white evangelical racism specifically, is that a fair-?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 26:22

Yes, it is, but with the but- that's fair, but also with the foundation of racism, racism, racism...

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 26:28

Yes.

Megan Goodwin: 26:28

Yeah.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 26:28

and- and a consistent racism from 19th to 21st century, a racism that does not let up, a racism that is built in, you know, constructions post-Civil War, about, you know, black men being rapists, and white women- and black women being, you know, loose and lewd and white women being pure, and the family being the core unit of everything, and a certain kind of structure with the father on top, and patriarchy, and all that kind of stuff. And that's why we get these family values talks today. I mean, it's one of the big things that they keep focusing on, and I'm like, yet still, I'm like, but you have children in cages at the border and I mean, Biden's not doing any better either right now, so I'm looking at him too.

Megan Goodwin: 27:09

Well they're facilities, right? They're no longer cages, they're nice facilities that we also put babies in. We put babies in nicer painted cages.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 27:17

It's still bullshit, and, you know,

Megan Goodwin: 27:18

Yes ma'am.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 27:18

if the bishops want to get after him for something they should get after him for that.

Megan Goodwin: 27:21

Well, I-

Dr. Anthea Butler: 27:22

But, you know, yeah, but that's why I'm saying you're wasting time on regular stuff when you know, the thing is, it's like, you should be trying to think about these kids and what's happening and putting these kids back together with their parents. So yeah, I mean, I think that this idea about evangelicalism being white, and that's why we put"white" at the beginning of it, we could have just said evangelical racism, uh, but I wanted it to say "White Evangelical Racism," to sort of put that punch in it, to make sure that people understood that there's no- there's no give here. There's no way to hide and I put in the spotlight on white people and evangelicalism, period, end of story.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 28:00

I love it.

Megan Goodwin: 28:00

It was a surprising thing to me when I was starting to learn more about evangelicalism in grad school that we see folks in Latin America, particularly converting to evangelicalism because it gets equated with- with whiteness, unstated, and prosperity as stated, right? Like Catholicism has been alighted with poverty in ways that were really surprising to me. But I feel like that-

Dr. Anthea Butler: 28:31

Not surprising to me, I mean, that's the whole thing. You're supposed to give up everything and follow after God, if you become in a order, you give everything up, and you know, you're supposed to be taken care of, right? So I think, you know, this idea about whiteness and evangelicalism becomes really important, because, you know, it's even more than that. It's capitalism.

Megan Goodwin: 28:48

I was gonna say.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 28:49

If you look at somebody like Kevin Kruse's book, "One Nation Under God," I mean, it's if you put that together with mine then you get a really good picture about what this kind of capitalist evangelical religion is like, and what that brings to the world and why people really love all that stuff.

Megan Goodwin: 29:04

Yeah.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 29:05

We're gonna pivot a little bit and say, one of the things that we both admire about your work is that it is always and unapologetically public-facing, you started at the top actually of saying, like you are in public, and not just your students, you are in public. And so one of the things we've talked about a lot on this podcast, most recently with Simran Jeet Singh, who I know you know, is that sometimes that's a choice, and other times, particularly for, like, nonwhite, nonChristian folks, and both of those and all of those at once, this cannot be a choice. And so I would love to hear more about whether or not public-facing or public scholarship or just being loud outside is a choice that you're making actively, if it's something that you feel called to do, or is it something that is in some ways put upon you, and so you've answered those pressures of being an academic?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 30:05

They may have been all of those at one time or another. But I think fundamentally, I don't even say it was a calling, it was just a choice. Because I think that, you know, for a lot of people- people don't remember this, but I'll talk about it. I spent my writing career, my public writing career started in the Revealer, and- with Jeff Sharlet, who's a good friend of mine, and it was around Katrina, and I had nine family members missing. And I wrote a piece, you know, "As Sheep Without a Shepherd," it was basically about, you know, George Bush, and I said George Bush was the Antichrist. So of course, that was my first dust up with people saying, "we've-, you know, to try- to cancel our subscription!" And Jeff was like, "but it's free. It's just- all you got to do is unsign for the email." And, you know, it was- it was about this whole thing that had happened in New Orleans about everybody being missing. And, you know, there was a picture of white people, they were "finding" bread, but a black person who was gone into a store wading into the store was"looting,"

Megan Goodwin: 31:03

Right.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 31:03

And so this was a moment to talk about that, you know, and to talk about the disparity in the press, but also the sort of religious thing about how this came upon, you know, Louisiana, because it was like Sodom and Gomorrah, I forgot- maybe it was Pat Robertson, or somebody said that.

Megan Goodwin: 31:18

Sounds right.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 31:19

Some pat- pastor, but um, you know, that's when it started. And I started writing there, and I started writing for Religion Dispatches, and then I got on TV, which was a whole nother ballgame. And that kind of happened because when Melissa Harris-Perry show started on MSNBC in 2011, you know, that's where I really became public, but it wasn't- it wasn't like something I was necessarily looking for, it was just the- because the stories were interesting to me, and I happened to write about them. So, I would say there's these moments of breakout. So one moment of breakout was Katrina, one moment of breakout for me was Eddie Long, believe it or not, because I had gone down when Eddie Long had the big thing where he had molested the boys and he had a service and the Washington Post picked that up. One moment of breakout for me was honestly, Trayvon Martin and you know, this past week, Rush Limbaugh died and all imma say about that is what Betty Davis said about Joan Crawford, and I'm gonna leave it at that. But, you know, being spoken about with- you know, the same week that I wrote about, you know, God is- why does- is God a white racist, right? Which was a riff off of a philosophy book from 1970. And the right-wingers picked it up and like, you know, basically came after me for weeks and weeks and weeks afterwards, that first week that I wrote that piece, it was- Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh talked about me on their shows twice each that week. And that was in 2014. Yeah. So that was right before- was that right before? I can't even- maybe 2013? I can't even remember, it's like, all this stuff- it's so much bad stuff, right?

Megan Goodwin: 32:57

Yeah.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 32:57

It all just kind of flows together. So I would say those were like big pieces of writing, you know, that- that kind of put me out in the public eye plus the TV stuff and everything. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what- if I'm talking to anybody out here that's listening to this, I think, you know, people look at me and go, "Oh, how did you do it? It was really great. Blah, blah." I'm like, I think people forget, it's been 15/16 years I've been doing it, right?

Megan Goodwin: 33:22

Right.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 33:22

And then also the part- the reason why I think I've been able to do it is because I actually talk to journalists and actually ask them questions. And I actually have relationships with them.

Megan Goodwin: 33:33

Yeah.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 33:33

So I think that for me, it hasn't been a bad thing. It's been a thing that has been- it's helped my work. And it's helped me think. And so, I'm really grateful about it. But I think that there's a- I will say this also, you didn't ask me this, but I'm going to add it as a- as a 50 cent addition to the podcast. There's a lot of people who think that this is something, you know, whether that's your institution wants you to do it, or you want to do it, that it's easy to do. It is not easy to do.

Megan Goodwin: 34:03

No.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 34:04

And- and I think that people don't understand that there's a time- there's a time thing involved, that you have to be a fast writer for certain kinds of things. You can't agonize, you have to write you have to get it off your desk. You know, the average time it takes me to write an op-ed, if I'm feeling really good about it, or- and what I mean by good is I feel motivated by it. Two to three hours.

Megan Goodwin: 34:27

Wow.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 34:27

Okay, and if it's- if it's something longer than it takes longer, sometimes it takes me longer to write them because it's, you know, it's not my- it's not my lane or it's not something I feel very strongly about. But you know, takes me a long time to write a book and- and- and some things take longer than others. And I think that for people who want to get into this now, there was a moment I would say on Twitter- and Twitter, especially not Facebook because Facebook is for your grandma. You know, and to share your doggy pictures and your kitty pictures.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 34:57

That's right.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 34:57

You know, am I mean, or you know, for people to mobilize cuz they're MAGA or whatever. But um-

Megan Goodwin: 35:02

It's where you go if you need to start a genocide, sure, but-

Dr. Anthea Butler: 35:04

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it's not- it's not some place that you go to, like be, well, you know, news-worthy, right? It's a place that you go spread disinformation to. But I think that, you know, there was a time on Twitter, I would say maybe from 2011 to 2015, that, you know, reporters will reach out to you and talk to you. I mean, this was one, I- let me give you an example of a very big story. I'm sorry I'm taking a little long to do this, but I know- But I just- people like to talk about. When

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 35:28

No. Charleston happened, I was actually not at home, I was in Boston, and I was in Boston at the Jesuit residence, believe it or not, because I knew that this encyclical was going to come out, on, um- I think it was on the environment. I can't remember which one, and I was there because I was visiting a friend, and I was gonna read it with them that morning and try to write a piece about it. And about like, 11:30, my phone started ringing, and I was just like, "Who's calling me, who's calling me?" and it was my sister's trying to tell me about the shooting and what had happened. And I got on Twitter, and I started tweeting about this. I said, "I bet that they're going to say that this guy was a lone wolf. I bet he was white. I bet he was this. I bet it was that." and it's somebody from the Washington Post, said, "can you, you know,

Megan Goodwin: 36:13

You can take as long as you want. can you write about this?" And that's the first time I did an all nighter to write an op-ed. I finished it at six o'clock in the morning, and it was why- wh- Why- "Why White Shooters Are Called Mentally Ill and Why Shooters of Color Are Called Terrorists." I mean, it went everywhere, Yeah I use it in class.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 36:30

I use that piece in my in my race class.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 36:32

Yeah, and people write to me still about it. And I think that, you know, it was a really important moment, because I could link the religious history that I knew, with this media interest that I had, with the interest about race, about how do we code these things? How do people say this? And it's the reason why we're not doing anything- that- that a lot's not happening- more is not happening with the insurrection. It's because they're white! I mean, you know, if it was black people, we'd've been shot on the lawn, before we even got in there.

Megan Goodwin: 37:00

Absolutely.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 37:01

You know, I'm sorry, that's what would've happened. And- and you know- and that one black dude that you see in the in the Senate chamber? I mean, dude ain't ever getting out of jail, he didn't even get bail, and everybody else is like, "Can I go to Mexico?"

Megan Goodwin: 37:12

I need to eat organic. It's for my religion.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 37:16

I know, right? And eating organic, and I'm like, I've got a good job, and I'm not even eating organic, what's wrong-

Megan Goodwin: 37:22

I just- I keep thinking about how- A) how hard it is to get like Halal food inside anyway, but also I keep- I keep thinking about Dominique Ray, who died without an Imam present because Alabama doesn't employ nonChristian ministers.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 37:41

Mhm. Exactly.

Megan Goodwin: 37:41

Like, this douchebag gets his fancy lettuce because his lawyer read a Wikipedia.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 37:47

Yeah, exactly. He gets his- he gets his fancy lettuce. And not only that, he calls himself a shaman, but he's given a very Christian prayer, in the middle of the thing and I'm just like shaman my ass

Megan Goodwin: 37:57

Exactly!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 37:58

He's not a shaman, he's not a shaman, cuz he would have been burned- he had to at least burn some incense or something. He didn't even do that. I mean, he's just funky, he'd not bathed in a million years. And I'm sorry, but it was just like a- but it was- it was like to me that whole thing was like a Foreigner song dirty- "Dirty White Boy" It was just like, it was a bunch of like, dirty guys going in there and tearing up stuff and pissing and shitting all over everything. And what makes me so angry about that is that it was all supposed to be for God? And it's all supposed to be like, you know, well, "God called us to do this, and God called us to do this-" No, God didn't call you be a complete jackass, you decided to do that. Because you believed this guy, and I'm sure everybody's gonna be like going"I can't believe she's talking about this like this." Yes, I am. Because it's part of what's happening with Christian nationalism right now, and you got a people- you got a bunch of people who barely know the Christian story, pretending to be Christians and acting as though that they understand what it is that God wants.

Megan Goodwin: 38:54

Yeah. Ugh. So gross.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 38:56

Yeah, it's a- it's a soup, it's a soup of like, toxic masculinity, racism, white supremacy, antisemitism,

Megan Goodwin: 39:05

White Christian nationalism...

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 39:07

White Christian nationalism, and every example that comes out of that insurrection is like, it's more, like you keep thinking "oh, we're at the bottom, this is the na-

Megan Goodwin: 39:16

Nope, no.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 39:16

No, you're not. There's no bottom.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 39:18

There's no bottom. There's no bottom, please don't think there's a bottom.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 39:22

Well, it just every detail- every detail you're like, oh my god and now he's a shaman and now this, and now that, and you're like Wow you couldn't... At some point this would be stopped as a Hollywood script because no one would, right?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 39:37

Nobody would believe it.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 39:38

It's too much, it's too much here, delete. You gotta edit. You gotta edit.

Megan Goodwin: 39:41

Right. Ilyse would make me take that joke out. The part that- one of the 18 trillion parts that makes me insane, are we're so willing to run 18 different stories about this douchebag and his fancy lettuce and his horns or whatever. Why are we not talking about Ayanna Pressley's panic buttons more? Why did I see that once it got dropped? Like, AOC did this amazing moment and that immediately got dropped? Sorry, we are- we have moved away from the evangelicalism. But I-

Dr. Anthea Butler: 40:10

No, I mean, I think there's a reason why they dropped it that's not away from evangelicalism, it's actually right square in the middle of it women's stories and women of color don't matter, white people's stories do.

Megan Goodwin: 40:21

Yeah.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 40:21

Yup. And it's easy, I think, as an Islamiscist for folks to be able to say, "that's not real Christianity," so we don't have to view it in that way. We're not asking white Christians or white evangelical Christians to apologize or verify that they're not like this. Whereas there's a whole industry of Muslims, like truly like an industry of Muslims and Muslim publishing, and Muslim speaking tours of like, no, I swear, we're not Jihadis. No, I swear, we're not terrorists.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 40:51

Yeah. Yeah. And and I know, you saw the book so you know I talk about that, after 911 and everything and how this whole thing comes up for evangelicals- so evangelicals are responsible for that, too.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 41:02

Oh, yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 41:02

Yes ma'am.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 41:02

I mean, you know, they've made that- that industry that you just talked about a cottage industry, because they've got an industry on the other side, saying, you know, how we need to get into 10-40 window, how we need to do this, we need to do that. How we need to evangelize Muslims, because they're terrible people... this is just ridiculous.

Megan Goodwin: 41:17

Right?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 41:18

Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 41:18

But nobody's releasing an "iCondemn" app for white evangelical Christians.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 41:22

No.

Megan Goodwin: 41:23

Yeah.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 41:23

You don't have to. I mean, as your book really handily shows, it- you just- you don't have to because that whiteness is pri- is- is primary every minute of the day and then that Christianity piece offers another like- I would say, like another pillar of protection against that suspicion of- of not really being human, or not really being a citizen, or not really being equal in some way.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 41:51

Mhm.

Megan Goodwin: 41:51

Right. So much so that I'm just gonna take a selfie while I'm literally shitting in the Capitol Building. Cool.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 41:57

Yeah, I know. I'm just gonna show it!

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 41:59

It's so gross! There's just- as a 19th century historian, but of imperialism, not in the US is like, you just have these moments where all of these authors in 19th century India were like, these dudes keep saying that we're not civilized, but they're really smelly, and what's wrong- like, there's so much- what's wrong?

Megan Goodwin: 42:17

They are.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 42:18

And I think of that every time folks do these this like- truly disgusting actions you're like, how is this-? Okay. Sure. Cool civilization. You've got a really, like, poop-filled civilization.

Megan Goodwin: 42:30

Right.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 42:32

Yeah, no, it's true. It's true. It's true.

Megan Goodwin: 42:35

Very professional podcast, primary sources?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 42:40

Prim- let's- you've heard from us, let's hear about us. It's time for PRIMARY SOURCES.

Megan Goodwin: 42:47

Primary sources![singing]

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 42:49

Good work Megan.

Megan Goodwin: 42:50

Primary sources is a- Thank you! Primary sources is a segment where we talk about the "I" in research because positionality matters. So as a way to focus us in primary sources Anthea, tell us please, why religion? Why this project, or these constellations of projects? Not just why it's interesting, but where do you fit in the work?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 43:11

I think I fit in because I've always been interested in people who wanted to say no, and people who are, you know, hardcore against the culture or whatever. I mean, I grew up Catholic. So you grow up Catholic in a predominantly Southern Baptist place, then you have a lot of thoughts about what people are doing and why, and why, you know, you outta Mass in 45 minutes, and they're not at the buffet as early as you are. So, I mean I think- to me, it's- it's that reason. It's like, I'm curious about them. I'm curious about why they're in opposition to the world and why they're in opposition to certain things, while at the same time being very hypocritical about it all, and taking and taking pieces about what they want. And so I think that's my positionality to all that and having been in a- in a big extended family that had, you know, Christians and Catholics and Jehovah Witnesses and- and nothing's, you know, yeah. I mean, I think that's why I do what I do. I'm just interested in why people are religious and what kinds of things it brings to them and what kind of things that- what kind of havoc does it wreak, in a way? Yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 44:20

Great!

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 44:21

I love that. Well, don't pack up yet, nerds. You've got HOMEWORK!

Simpsons: 44:29

Homework, what homework?

Megan Goodwin: 44:31

In our last episode, we assigned so many things, we- yeah, we have lots to say. So we prepared you, hopefully, for our classroom visit today. Obviously, your new book is assigned and on the list and in the show notes and linked to everywhere we could link it. But following Judith Weisenfeld in Season Two, we have been asking our guests this season, what you've written or what you've made that you're most proud of. So what are you most proud of? You've done so, so much, but one or two things that you're really excited to have out in the world.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 45:04

I think this book, yeah.

Megan Goodwin: 45:06

Yeah!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 45:06

Yeah, I think so because it's important, and it is timely. And I think that I hope that it's going to change some people's thinking about this. So I think that is, and um, I don't know, I mean, I think, actually, though- I actually think that it's something different. It's not what's out in the world yet. But what might come out in the world is the grant that we have, Judith and I have been talking a long time about what to do for Af-Am religious history. And so this is sort of a more of a promise about what we will be doing with that, you know, loose money and the kinds of things we can do. So I think I'm really excited about that.

Megan Goodwin: 45:43

I think a lot of us are really, really excited about that/does this mean we're gonna get Lerone Martin on Twitter?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 45:49

Probably not.

Megan Goodwin: 45:52

Damn it!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 45:53

Yeah, I think that he's pretty much content to not be on Twitter.

Megan Goodwin: 45:57

I mean, that's fair, I guess.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 45:58

He might be smarter than the rest of us.

Megan Goodwin: 46:00

He is, clearly! He is, I just- I think he's brilliant and also just a lovely human. So I- I would enjoy having more of him out in the world. But that's me being selfish and probably colonialist, so.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 46:09

Yeah, he's- yeah, he's good where he is, one of us has to not be on Twitter, I think.

Megan Goodwin: 46:14

That's fair, that's fair.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 46:14

I think that's wise.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 46:15

No, I just- I just want to say, "White

Evangelical Racism: 46:17

the Politics of Morality in America," out March 22, on the University of North Carolina Press, please go to their website and purchase it, it would be great. I know some of you like to go to Amazon everything. But it'd be nice if he went to UNC and, you know, actually purchase it from them. And yeah, I'll be doing lots of book talks and things. And so stay tuned.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 46:38

Yeah. And we always in our show notes link people to- directly to publishers, because we also do not want to give Bezos any more of our money. But we additionally will update these shownotes with things like links to videos, links to talks that you're giving so that we-

Dr. Anthea Butler: 46:53

I can give you a whole list of everything of what I'm appearing in in the next two months.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 46:57

That's amazing!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 46:58

So I can- I can send that to you.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 46:59

Because the way we use our show notes, if you didn't know already, and this is a reminder for our listeners, is that these are classroom companions. So basically, the way folks are using it is they'll assign a podcast, and then they'll get their classroom assignments from the show notes. So we're just going to plug you even more than we could possibly imagine because you've more than earned it.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 47:22

And I should say at the end too, that there's one more thing I do have that I've only sent out one so far. But I'll be doing it again, I have a Religion, News and Notes that comes out of Twitter, and it's kind of like a- I would say maybe a little update of kind of a thing that I'm going to be doing that'll tell you where I'm at, and religion, news and notes or where I think there's a good story that comes out that people need to see. So I'll be putting another one of those out probably later this week. And they'll start to be more on a regular basis. So you can sign up for that too. And I'll give you all the links. So you can do it.

Megan Goodwin: 47:54

Wait, so did you start a sub stack? Is that what's happening?

Dr. Anthea Butler: 47:57

Yeah, well, it's- kind of like a sub stack. It's by review. It's something that's actually connected to Twitter. And when I post up a news- when I post up a newsletter, it posts to Twitter, and you can sign up you can sign up for it.

Megan Goodwin: 48:09

Alright, once again, cutting edge. I'm gonna have to look into this. Thank you.

Dr. Anthea Butler: 48:12

Yeah, yeah, I know. I know, people are doing substack. But I got really interested in this because Twitter just actually bought them. And it's something that- it's something that people have been using overseas. So I've been thinking, I was like, Oh, why aren't we using this in the States? I should use this. So.

Megan Goodwin: 48:27

Cool!

Dr. Anthea Butler: 48:27

Yeah.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 48:29

All right. Well, we are so honored that you took the time out of your day to be with us. We can't thank you enough. And I'm going to do our a wrap up. As a reminder, a summary, links to citations and references and all the important transcripts stuff can be found on the show notes at keepingit101.com. Shout out, as always, to our awesome research assistant, Katherine Brennan, whose transcription work makes this pod accessible, and therefore awesome. If you need to find more of any of us find us on Twitter.

Megan Goodwin: 49:00

Yeah, true story. You can find me Megan @mpgPhD and Ilyse @profirmf or the show@keepingit_101 . Find Dr. Butler@Antheabutler . Find the pod website at keepingit101.com and please and thank you drop us a rating or review in your pod catcher of choice. And with that-

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 49:26

Peace out, nerds.

Megan Goodwin: 49:28

And do your homework! It's on the syllabus.

Derry Girls: 49:48

You people like to fight each other and to be honest, no person really understands why. Well, actually a political element too, Katya, and there's a religious element. You're not two different religions, here, you're different flavors of the same religion, no? Well, yes- but it's a little bit more complicated than that, Katya.