INCORRECT: Sports

Lots of people do not care about sports, including Megan. But Ilyse is here to tell Megan that not-caring about sports is INCORRECT, since sports gives us a window into thinking about religion. 

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Ilyse: 0:17

This is keeping it 101, a killjoys introduction to religion podcast in 2022 2023. Our work is made possible through both a UVM reach grant and a luce AAR advancing public scholarship grant. We're grateful to live teach and record on the current ancestral and unseeded lands of the Abenaki Wabanaki and Aucocisco peoples. As always, you can find material ways to support indigenous communities on our website.

Megan: 0:39

Yeah you can. What's up nerds? Hello, I'm Megan Goodwin, a scholar of American religions race, gender and politics.

Ilyse: 0:46

Hello, I'm Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst, historian of religion, Islam, recent racialization and South Asia. Megan...

Megan: 0:53

I'm just I need to say out loud that I'm just bracing my entire soul for this conversation because I know that I'm not ready, but I don't know how to get ready for it.

Ilyse: 1:03

Now I want to do like, are you ready for this? I want to play every fucking jock jam in my soul for you. From the 90s till today, what can we do? How do we get it done? We are doing sports.

Megan: 1:20

Yeah, we are...

Ilyse: 1:21

Today's episode Megan, is an incorrect. Incorrect, where we kindly but firmly insist that religion does more in different work than our nerds might think it does. Because on today, we are challenging some basic assumptions about sports!

Megan: 1:39

We're going to talk about sports,

Ilyse: 1:41

specifically, the idea that sports are secular and have nothing to teach us or tell us about religion.

Megan: 1:47

Hmm. So all right, I'm gonna ask this question, because it's the only one we're getting through this episode. Hey, Ilyse. You care a lot about sports? What what do folks get incorrect when it comes to sports and religion?

Ilyse: 2:03

So much, Megan, I know so much. But I'm gonna limit it. And you know what? I'm even limiting it to two things not even. Damn. Four. Five is right out two things.

Megan: 2:15

Two shall be the name of the counting.

Ilyse: 2:16

There's two things that are incorrect about how folks think about sports. Number one, sports, including the play of sports, as well as the spectatorship include so many elements and religious practice, period.

Megan: 2:33

That's true. That's fair. Okay.

Ilyse: 2:35

And number two, and you're I know you were mad that I said, Yeah, we got to do some sports. So I'm going to give you something that I don't ever give you. I'm gonna give you the United States.

Megan: 2:46

Hurray! America for me. Thanks. I hate it. But I love it but I hate it

Ilyse: 2:51

colonizer you're just like a gift of America. But because sports in the US are so deeply tied to religion. That's true elsewhere. And I thought for a minute about going full Premier League on you. But I thought you know what, Megan cannot talk soccer.

Megan: 3:09

I knew I knew Premier League was soccer. For starters. Thanks, Ted Lasso

Ilyse: 3:15

Yeah, exactly. That's That's great. Anyway, sports includes so many ways for us to think about religion number one and number two sports in the USA are absolutely at I would argue almost inextricably tied to religion and religious practice. Shocking, no one, white Christianities. But we're going to talk more about that. I guess right now, we're gonna talk more about that. I guess right now,

Megan: 3:37

right now. You're so excited to talk about a sports okay, you know what? Let's just do it. Okay, so

Ilyse: 3:42

you know what, I almost put on my like Adidas tracksuit, this morning, but it's like 90 degrees in Vermont right now. And I'm too sweaty.

Megan: 3:50

Please do take a picture of it when the episode comes out, though, so that I can use it for our video byte because I think that's important.

Ilyse: 3:56

Just looking straight Jers

Megan: 3:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna need you to like really crunch up the curls. Like shiny like, do it.

Ilyse: 4:03

Yeah. Okay. I do I have a gel that would do that work for us.

Megan: 4:07

Yes. Excellent. Good. Thank you. Okay, religion and sports. Hey, what's that all about?

Ilyse: 4:21

know it bothers you because I'm always doing like sports metaphors. And you're like, Ilyse, I'm a theater kid. Can you make this theater-y and I'm like, I guess but also, it's really about the

Megan: 4:38

scoreboard!

Ilyse: 4:38

It's always about scoreboard. Friends, I have a scoreboard that Megan got me literally behind my desk at all times where I keep track of the wins because I fucking love sports. And more specifically, I actually find that sports are a great way to get folks to think about religion, how religion is everywhere, and how we're socialized to both see and not see religion in our daily lives.

Megan: 4:59

Yeah, I I do not sports generally. I don't that's not a thing that I do martial arts not really a sport. And but since you and sister of the pod, Kathleen Murray Fudie, have been in my life, I, I make an effort I try in the same way that like, I know that you all don't care about, like fucking dragons in the way that I do. But you humor me and so I have learned the bare minimum about sport. So when you are saying that sports and religion go together? Are you meaning that like baseball and soccer are religion? Because that seems not? Right. But you're smart. So help me.

Ilyse: 5:41

I don't mean that no. But I do mean that we can see a ton of similarities and how groups work, how definitions work, how rituals work, how participation works, how sacred space works in sports, broadly. Lots of people would also say we can see a lot of religion happening in sports from the wee little guys all the way up till the professionals.

Megan: 6:05

huh? Okay. All right. Walk me through it.

Ilyse: 6:09

As you know, lots of people think that you and I are being too aggressive when we say religion isn't done with you. And then we title our book that

Megan: 6:15

I mean, I get that a lot regardless of what I'm titling my book, but yeah, yes, they do think it's scary to say religion isn't done with you. Because what if you'd like to be done with religion? Too bad nerds, sorry.

Ilyse: 6:25

Yeah. And so let's explain it using the sports balls. For me, for me as a treat as a treat for me.

Megan: 6:30

All right, you may have little a sport as a treat.

Ilyse: 6:33

Okay, I'm going to set this in Boston, because I know that you know Boston better and, since you grew up in Philly. I'm afraid that if I said in New York, some inner Philly the Irish nonsense hooligan will come out and try to kill me because Philly and New York, famous rivalry in some sports, New York and Boston, another famous rivalry. In some sports. Everyone jealous New York is the better of the all all

Megan: 6:56

I don't think anybody's jealous in New York because it sucks. It sucks

Ilyse: 6:59

It keeps winning championship though. So in the spirit of shitting on teams that I hate. Let's talk about the Red Sox.

Megan: 7:06

Which is fun for me because in as far as I have ever given even a quarter of a turd about sports. It was the Boston Red Sox that I cared about.

Ilyse: 7:15

I mean, I want to say at the jump that I grew up rooting for the Yankees, but only because Doc Gooden broke my heart because he's played for the Mets. And when it came out that he was on drugs, and I was in the midst of Nancy Reagan say no to drugs. I was so disappointed in my favorite pitcher on my favorite team, that I switched allegiances and joined my dad's long standing Yankees fandom. And so that's how I became a Yankees fan.

Megan: 7:37

And Johnny Damon got me off baseball pretty much forever that was he left for some fucking team in New York who can say which one? And I haven't cared about baseball since to be

Ilyse: 7:45

Well, we have really strong feelings about sports, honest. even though we don't play for that team and don't know how to throw a ball. It's almost like it's a good metaphor for something. So let's take these red sox because you and I have actually both lived in Boston. So I think this is a good place because we can talk about how religion isn't done with us, even though we're in some ways done with it. Regardless of how many times they win, or break, Babe Ruth curse, fucking Boston fans with a goddamn worst. And I say that to you, a Philadelphia person who are second worst.

Megan: 8:15

Yeah, that's accurate.

Ilyse: 8:16

Like right now. The last time I checked the scoreboard I think I think the Sox are trailing New York by 17 Games, but I was watching the New York Boston game and everyone's like screaming the Yankees suck. And it's like, Dude, you're nearly 20 games behind like you are just, facts don't matter. Just like how miracles are real right? Sports, religion we're in it.

Megan: 8:33

No, the Yankees sucking is an ontological fact that is not about math. That's just who they are.

Ilyse: 8:39

Again, I want us to think about why ontologies are a way that we think about sports. So as we both know, from having lived in Boston, it doesn't actually matter if I don't care about baseball broadly, or if I don't care about the Sox at all. Because on a game day, the trains are gonna be late. Traffic will be fucked. I will definitely get attacked in 2006 for wearing in New York hat on the orange line of the T at

8: 9:06

30am on the way to the Haymarket on a Saturday to buy like dollar for 10 limes.

Megan: 9:11

Hundo-P.

Ilyse: 9:11

Yeah, is the thing that happened. Yep. Like a man screamed at me using Christian obscenities. It was really weird. He called Kevin a "young snake" and then tried to give us the Bible, all because I was wearing a yankees hat, it was dope as fuck. But that's the thing that will happen even though I don't care. And I was really just wearing that because if you know about Boston summers, it's real humid. And if you've seen my hair, it's real big and I didn't have stuff in it and it just needed to go under a hat. This was not an ontological, philosophical or ideological choice. It was just a poor choice. And I got yelled at by a subway preacher.

Megan: 9:42

Checks out.

Ilyse: 9:43

We also know having lived in Boston that there are correct reds and navies and incorrect navy blues to wear. We also know that there's I would say like a social pressure of people of a certain age and class and probably race to see a game at Fenway because it is is hallowed ground.

Megan: 10:02

Yep, yep. Yep. I will also say because I know how much you love calendars. If you are a person who teaches in Boston and you're expecting most of your class to show up on opening day, you are a fool. Like baseball structures time. It also structures the landscape of Boston. If you know Boston, you know that there is a weather poll on the top of I forget which building, which is supposed to tell you what the weather is like, but sometimes also it tells you if games have

Ilyse: 10:28

Yeah, well, that is the weather like that is the been canceled. temperature of the city, brace yourself. Yeah. So what I'm saying is, is that living in Boston, we learned that there was a social capital for understanding this particular sport, or at least for not saying this is stupid, why is sports? And I'll also say, having lived in Boston, there are moments where it's dangerous not to understand, like, have have you Megan, for real, have you ever been on the drunk train after a game accidentally?

Megan: 11:04

It's bad, it's bad. And the thing is, like, it doesn't matter whether they lost or they won. Neither of those makes a train a safe place to be.

Ilyse: 11:11

No, because Boston fans will riot for wins and Riot for losses. They are fucking unruly,

Megan: 11:16

Correct. That's correct.

Ilyse: 11:17

Have you ever been out like just out at night after a particularly bad loss that had that group of Red Sox wearing white dudes walk by?

Megan: 11:28

Yeah, I lived in Kenmore Square for the first four years. I've never been Boston. Yeah, like this was. If you don't know Boston, I could throw a rock I couldn't. But someone who was good at throwing rocks could throw a rock from Kenmore Square and hit Fenway. So yeah, yes, yes. I'm very familiar with this charged atmosphere. Yeah, I

Ilyse: 11:48

once was at a bar and I watched a man punch a lamp and cut his whole hand like a bloody mess. Because noma, did a winning play. This was like a win. And this dude just broke his fucking hand. Because good play. All of which is to say it doesn't actually matter if I care about the sports ball. Or if I was watching that game on the TV, the sports ball is doing the work here.

Megan: 12:21

So in much the same way we see religion doing work on the world and on us whether we care about it or not sports operates in similar ways. It does work, whether we are personally invested in it or not. Okay, this metaphor works for me.

Ilyse: 12:33

Okay. All right. That's exactly right. And we've been focusing on you know, the violent temperament of Boston fans, but we could also talk about the moment of exuberance and community in wins and losses.

Megan: 12:44

Oh, yeah.

Ilyse: 12:44

Right. So like, there are countless examples of when your team wins. Freaking out, feeling excited, hugging the dude next to you, or crying and losing and people are just like, their whole lives are over.

Megan: 13:00

Yeah, I got full on kissed by a stranger. When...

Ilyse: 13:03

Ooh, la la. Yeah.

Megan: 13:04

Well, I was at a bar. Uh, when the Boston Red Sox came back. After we thought they were gonna be out. It was actually the year that they won. And it was a big deal. And yeah, random random dude. smooching me was already he was out. But yeah, that was surprising. It's also Yeah, it's just constant, like the year that the Patriots won the Super Bowl, which would have been 2002.

Ilyse: 13:31

They've won a number of Super Bowls.

Megan: 13:33

Yeah. But this was a big thing, because they hadn't won in a while or something. It might have been a Tom Brady. I don't know. But it was striking to me.

Ilyse: 13:40

I love when you try. It's very sweet.

Megan: 13:43

Thank you. I know it's important to you, not Tom Brady. But sports in general. No, I hate football.

Ilyse: 13:47

And yeah fuck, football.

Megan: 13:48

But the Patriots, which is a football team, I know that, won the Super Bowl, which is a big deal I'm given to understand. Yes, a chanting that happened in Boston where I was, was Yankee suck. That's not even the same sport.

Ilyse: 14:04

It doesn't need to be the same sport because, again, it's a prayer. Right? Like it is just it's your it's the thing you say when someone sneezes, it's knee jerk. It doesn't even have to have intentionality. It's just true. You are doing my work for me. So it's true. It's true.

Megan: 14:22

I still have that reaction. When I see Yankee shouts out in public. I live in Maine, where we have very few sports. And I don't care about baseball, but the Yankees I know in my soul, they suck.

Ilyse: 14:34

But those moments of exuberance and community in that where people are coming together and making out with your face, consensually or not? I hope consensually. When people are excited when people are really reveling. There's an importance to that, people describe it as having been there, people think about it in terms of place and time and fluency, it is usually more meaningful for folks to win a championship or a playoff in a home stadium as opposed to an away stadium right.

Megan: 15:00

There is an effervescence to it.

Ilyse: 15:01

There's an effervescence, which if you hear us nerds, you hear us seeing what's coming next. But there's also these in They're in your hymnals to the page..\ stadium rituals, which as a nerd, I fucking love the most, right? So I'm going to do the Boston ones. But we could do this for any stadium. Right? Like being a fan of being able to touch the green monster signing peskies poll, if you happen to sit out on the third baseline, hating the Yankees and yelling Yankees suck, regardless of the season, or time or factual facts of that, singing sweet Caroline in the eighth, which like, Alright, I guess if Jewish Elvis is going to be your thing, go for it. They're all things that require specific knowledge. They require teaching, right? Like you don't just learn, like you don't just show up in Fenway, and they don't give you like a little like a map, or like a program You'd think they would do that, but they don't. And so how do that's like, hey, in the eighth inning, we're going to take a break to sing Sweet Caroline, here are lyrics. you learn that? That's what you do? How do you how do you create that community of transmission and tradition? So people do it. People do it. And they do it in similar ways, to the ways that we see people creating community rituals, traditions, and superstitions, and I'm using superstitions in a broad sense, around religion, right? It's the way that like, my dad used to wear the same shirt to watch the sports play, even though like you're at home, they can't see you through the WPI X channel 11 broadcast of the Yankees on like, a Saturday in 1987 Dad, and you're not part of the team. But somehow that belief that me wearing my lucky shirt will make sure that the guys win, is about belonging. It's about community, but it's also about just straight up ritual. So are you ready to help me break down the actual theories that I've been teasing out with my very grumpy foray into the Boston Red Sox?

Megan: 16:53

Yes, ma'am. Yes, I am. Because I love theory, even though I'm grumpy about sports.

Ilyse: 16:58

Okay, so you already said Collective effervescence did we are going to cite that that's our board, Durkheim. Megan, what is collective effervescence? Who is Durkheim? What, why are we citing that? What does that matter?

Megan: 17:08

Okay, so if we're thinking about collective effervescence, we are thinking about, ah, a mood right, created together that helps you think about the world that makes meaning of your experiences together. And Emile Durkheim gives us the sociology of religion and says, hey, what if it's less important what you believe, and more important, what y'all do when you come together?

Ilyse: 17:33

That's exactly right. So, in the primary sources, we once took a group of kids, I was a camp counselor, we took a group of kids to Boston to the Boston we were kids in Boston. And among many other stupid things we did, we took them to a Sox game. They're a bunch of kids from the New York tri state area. So they're all wearing Yankees hats, and we sit behind the green monster. And they are harassing the centerfielder of the Toronto Blue Jays and they are just screaming obscenities. It's like fucking, it's incredible. But when all these like, you know, stadium, things happen, right? Like when the wave happens, when Sweet Caroline comes on, these Yankees fans who are doing their most to make it dangerous for the 19 year olds in charge to leave the stadium, they're singing along so collective effervescence doesn't mean that you believe in the thing or that you're even happy to be there, it really just means you're participating in kind of getting swept up in that affective emotional experience.

Megan: 18:31

Well, and that that affective emotional experience does something to you that you might not be able to anticipate, right, it creates change in the space, but can also create change in you. And there isn't always a way to anticipate what that's going to do until you're in it. That's when people say"you have to have been there". Like, yeah, man, if you were not out someplace watching the Sox win for the first time in I don't know how many decades because I don't actually care about sports. You have to have been there. It does something, and the folks who were there shared that experience and that experience lives in their bodies.

Ilyse: 19:06

Yeah. So theory number one at playing sports for us. Alright, so we did Durkheim. I want to think about policing, disciplining, making sure that everybody is following the rules, which I know is, I guess, our boy Foucault. So I was thinking about Foucault when I was thinking about, like, not wearing the wrong colors on the train, learning that my Yankees hat needed to stay at home, and I needed to wear my like, blue real daycamp watermelon league baseball hat out, which is just a joke for Dina Goodman. And then I'm thinking about all of those kinds of policing where veering off of the expectation means that you will have some kind of social sanctioning, but how might you explain that differently than me or did I do that right?

Megan: 19:54

No, I think you did it right. But I think the part that we want to emphasize is that there's not a cop of the Red Sox on the train in in the morning saying that is the wrong navy blue, what you have are fucking weirdos who are going to give you shit. And so you internalize that it is not safe to do it wrong. And you, you discipline your body and your behaviors to do it, quote unquote, right? So, when we're talking about discipline or policing in the context of Foucault, we're thinking about not explicit systems, not like, Oh, my God, the cops are gonna come get me, because I wore the wrong shirt on the T. They'll come and get you for other things. But anyway, Fuck the police. But what we're thinking about here is the way that we internalize collective agreements and commitments whether we want to or not, because that's what is required of us to move safely and somewhat freely through these spaces.

Ilyse: 20:48

Yeah. All right. And last thing I think, is at play here, in our little foray into sports is ritual theory. Like our girl, Katherine Bell. Yes. Som tell me tell me that. Okay, great. Tell me that. So erudite.

Megan: 21:02

How do ritual work?

Ilyse: 21:04

How do ritual? Go!

Megan: 21:05

Go! So the thing that I always emphasize with Katherine Bell is that, I think, for folks for whom religion equals belief, they assume that ritual equals acting out belief. And Katherine Bell says, nah, actually, ritual does things to our bodies, regardless of what we believe we can participate in rituals, whether or not we believe in a specific religious tradition, or a particular, I don't know, theological or philosophical tenant, and that we can't always know ahead of time, what doing those things will do to us in our brains and our bodies. So it is possible and sama who does a lot here as well, right? It is possible to participate in ritual and find yourself changed, find yourself maybe believing or investing in ways of thinking or believing or worldviews that were not meaningful for you before. But because you've done it and you've done it with other people, it becomes meaningful, it becomes a way of participating in community, it becomes a new way of being in the world. Did I get it?

Ilyse: 22:05

Yes, you did. Great. I think that's perfect. So I know we've been in Boston this whole time, and that we've been, you know, giving you the entirety of the United States. But I wanted to talk really quickly before we peace out of this episode, about the the specific connection between sports and religion, not just like religious theory and how we might use sports to think about religion not being done with us, but also how sports in the US is like, expressly religious often. So I'm thinking here about muscular Christianity and the YMCA and the establishment of those buildings as a literal way to discipline Christian bodies, Christian male bodies into being weapons for Christ, but also nation, for Christ and nation. So if you don't like that tough shoe news, that is exactly what that history is. But I am also thinking of the Supreme Court case that came down in June, late June. Oh, about prayer on the high school football team where a high school football coach in I think it was like Bremerton High School, said, I can pray at the 50 yard line and all my players are welcome to join me and everyone was like nos, like hired by the public school. That's probably not acceptable. And the Supreme Court being a theocratic nonsense organization that it is ruled six, three for the coach, saying that they needed to balance the religious and free speech rights of the teachers and coaches with the rights of students not to feel pressured into participating in religious practices. And even though the coach dominates playing time, who starts, whether or not you make the team, whether or not your siblings come in after you make the team, et cetera, et cetera,

Megan: 23:55

potentially your access to like college, because if you're playing at a certain level

Ilyse: 23:59

100%, right,

Megan: 24:00

like so this isn't just about a game. We absolutely do it It's also a space where we see

Ilyse: 24:01

The Supreme Court in its theocratic wisdom said no, the negotiations around whose body is acceptable to play sports and coach can pray and students can say no, which having played on many teams, some of which had prayer, and some of which whose isn't right. So if you are an observant Muslim woman and didn't. That is fucking bullshit, and yet the stupidest thing I've ever seen and a major erosion of the First Amendment. you express that through pious fashion, if you want to cover But I bring this up to say that the idea that the coach needs to pray with his high school public football team for a win is some American sports, not just American religion, that is American sports. Right? years ago, we didn't care when like Tim Tebow would take a knee in the endzone because it meant he won but when Colin Kaepernick takes a knee, it's not about your head while you're playing, there are a lot of places where prayer. It's about protest and therefore it is shun so this idea of correct religion happening on the field is one that is like deeply imbrocated in American sports, particularly professional sports, but we see it filtering down through the lower levels. that can't happen, or a lot, a lot of places where it has taken a bunch of community activism and struggle, and frankly, legal battles to say like, yeah, you can cover your head. This affects Sikh players who wear turbans as well, right? Like that has been a struggle. So the assumption that bodies should not be marked religiously, except that it seems to be fine to wear your crucifix while you play? Yeah, because it's not a safety issue. Because it's under your jersey, no one can pull that and hurt your neck but a hijab, well, someone's gonna, someone's gonna pull it off. And, like, which is it already an illegal play regardless of what sport you're playing. So I never understood this logic. It's just hateful.

Megan: 25:51

It is just hateful. It is a way that we tell folks who are not Christian and who want to wear their religious commitments on their bodies, that they don't actually fit in this thing that we have decided is quintessentially American, which is woof, that is some shit. But, but I also am going to do a thing Ilyse and I want you to brace yourself for it, because I don't think you're ready. Take a deep breath. Good, good, fully work. I'm both going to know a thing about sports. And I'm going to say something nice about it. You're ready.

Ilyse: 26:23

What the fuck?

Megan: 26:24

I know. I know. Here's what I'm gonna say. For some people. Sport can also be religion. And this isn't me being like, yes, the Boston Red Sox. So though again, I think as this episode has laid bare, I have some weirdly residual. One might say survival level. Oh, feelings about the Sox. No, what I'm talking about specifically, is the Jota nashoni. And historically, were called the Iroquois. But that's a French name. So they call themselves the Jota nashoni. So that's the name we use. Lacrosse is a sacred sport. So there are sports that are sacred to some folks and the co-option of lacrosse, in and around both United States and the world, without accounting for its Jota nashoni roots, and frankly, without often making space for Jota Nashoni players is messed up. But there has been some movement to both acknowledge the debt that all people who play lacrosse Oh to that 100 nashoni. And to make more space for the Jota nashoni To play lacrosse as a sacred undertaking, as well as a sport undertaking. Those things are not separate. So that is, I think, nice.

Ilyse: 27:36

I love that. That's perfect. All right, you know what, I think we've said enough, because we could keep going forever. And I think there's loads to say, but the takeaways are. Religion in the US is often expressed through sports, and sports in the US are exceptionally religious, particularly Christian. But also sports gives us a really interesting way to think about religious theory. And I encourage you to send us some examples of how that might be played out in other places.

Megan: 28:04

Yes, from what I understand a lot of people care deeply about both religion and sports. So more to learn here for me. Hooray. But let's not pack up your stuff yet. And arts you have homework,

Ilyse: 28:15

homework, what homework?. So I've got Rebecca Alpert, who very, very famously has a lot of books on religion and sports. One of them is called "religion and sports: an introduction and case studies."

Megan: 28:25

Dr. Alpert is also a rabbi and an avid baseball fan. So

Ilyse: 28:30

she's, yeah, she has a co edited book, Rebecca Alpert does with art Remo lard called God games and globalization, new perspectives on religion and sports. Tara Magdalene ski and Timothy John Lindsay Chandler have a book called with God on their side sport in the service of religion, which is really good.

Megan: 28:51

And open access apparently. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's

Ilyse: 28:54

a really good book. And then Laura Dubois, who is at soccer politics on Twitter has a ton of work on how soccer and politics go together and there's some religion to be had in there too. That's not his Express Focus. i Oh, Super recommend soccer empire the world cup in the future of France. It is all about nationalism, soccer and, and like religious and racial belonging. And then he also has a book called The language of the game, how to understand soccer, and now he is not phrasing this in expressly religious terms. But there's a whole chapter on ritual. So religion nerds Do your worst. And then fellow UNC alum Annie Blaser wrote a book called playing for God, evangelical women and the unintended consequences of sports ministry, which is quite excellent. So high recommend all of those things.

Megan: 29:43

You're reading this and I just remembered that I actually remember when I taught the religion and sports class online because Annie had designed it, I completely blacked out like I blacked it out like it was a trauma to me. Wow. Well, anyway,

Ilyse: 29:54

frankly, it's a trauma to me that you got to teach that course. So I'm gonna just let that sit and stay in Did shout out to Evie Wolfe Rachel's Zieff and Juliana Finch the key I want to on team whose works make this pod accessible and therefore awesome listenable social media of all, among many other things for which we are grateful.

Megan: 30:11

You can find Meghan that's me on Twitter @mpgPhD and Ilyse @profirmf where the show@keepingit_101 by the website at keepingit101.com Peep the insta, if you want to and now we're on Tik Tok apparently, drop us a rating or review and your pod catcher of choice and with that

Ilyse: 30:28

peace out nerds do your homework it's on the syllabus sports sports let's get ready to rumble

Megan: 31:14

Y'all ready for this