Welcome to speak up with Rita Burke and Elton Brown.
Rita:Glad to have you here with us, Jim. So delighted to having the honor of interviewing Jim Kohli, who is the past international director of Toastmasters. I read a statement recently and I quote better communication leads to better lives. Please give us your take on that statement, Jim.
Jim:Great question, Rita. Let me arrange my thoughts for a moment. I have a lot swirling around because for me, the benefits of better communication are pretty obvious. And I think I was even thinking about that when I responded to a message on Jim Facebook page that got Elton's attention to begin with. So here's my thought. One of the most fundamental social mysteries of our time has to do. Men and women and how they communicate. And yet for many of us, it's normal to have some sort of expectation. And then. Speaking, just in terms of people's sexual preferences or anything like that. But ordinarily we expect people to marry a couple up somehow and go and work things out. And yet you'll meet people who've been married or have some kind of long-term relationship five or 10 years later. And they'll still say they don't understand what the other person is saying or doing or thinking or any of those things. And yeah. The problem essentially is not one of thinking or culture, but communication, because if there's a misunderstanding, the misunderstanding could have been communicated or explained afterwards, which lends a little bit of understanding in terms of the framework of how that other person operates and their value system and what they thought the context was and all of those things. So it makes a lot of sense for me. It's very clear. That for people who you think of as having made a mistake, it could have been prevented if they had communicated or someone had communicated with them about whatever it was they were attempting to do.
Rita:I certainly appreciate that response that you are agreeing the better communication leads to better lies. Do you see that applying to career to job? Is it.
Jim:Yes, fun story. I joined Toastmasters in 2002 and at the time that I joined Toastmasters, I thought of myself as a smart engineer guy who really didn't have great communication skills, but I felt like I understood matters of physics and engineering and software and all of those things. When I went to visit my first Toastmaster meeting. I was not impressed with the quality of the presentations, the person who was the humorous at this meeting had some jokes I'd heard before. And the table topics. People were not on top of their game. And I thought, wow, how does this even work? And then the evaluators came up to speak. And when they did, I understood what the value of Toastmasters is. It helps you. How you're being perceived. It also helps you understand what you could do to be perceived better, whether it's the words you choose or the approach that you take now, moving forward, that was in 2002, in 2012, I was offered a promotion at GE healthcare where I'd been working since 1982. And I was specifically told, we think you are the perfect guy for this promotion because. Of anticipation relating to conflict, anticipation of the need to have exceptional skills of influence and the ability to be objective and to communicate and influence other people very effectively. Those were words I would not have. Being used to describe me in 2002. So it definitely had a direct objective, unquestionable positive effect on my career. And I think that I'm still using many of those same skills in other situations. So yes, personally and professionally, no question in my mind, better communication skills do lead to better lives.
Elton:Thank you for really answering that question, what do you tell Toastmasters that are currently suffering from Zoom fatigue?
Jim:My thoughts on this are first of all. It's very important to understand that someone who says they're suffering from Zoom fatigue really is suffering from Zoom fatigue. This is not just a crazy made up thing. I think everyone misses the spontaneity. They miss the idea of communication through body language more effectively. They're tired of trying to pretend. A lens is a connection to another person's soul because it's not. So what, the first thing I do is I help them understand. Yes, it's totally valid. We get it. I have it. You have it. Other people have it. I also think it's very important to be optimistic, both. And whatever you're doing socially is professionally everything in life. If you're not optimistic, you will always feel like there's nothing to look forward to the next day. So I like to encourage people to think about both. Yes, it's valid. They have it think about what's going to happen in the future and keep on keeping on, because that would be very important. And the other interesting thing is if it seems like the person enjoys a challenge, Then I will probably challenge them to think about if they're having Zoom fatigue, what can they do for themselves so that any kind of Zoom encounter or Zoom experience, isn't the same drab all thing, maybe they can reimagine the space that they're in a little bit. Maybe they can figure out if they want to have a chair to sit on, or if they want to stand up. They can do interesting things with their background, which is a very easy kind of adjustment to make. And they can think about even putting messages in their background. If they like I'm an a member, excuse me, I'm a club member for a club that specializes in humor, and it's not unusual to be involved with other members of the club in a Zoom conference where we're putting silly messages and our background. During the call and yes, it's a little bit of a distraction, but it's not unexpected for club that focuses on things that are spontaneous and intend to be humorous.
Rita:I hear you loud and clear sounds to me as if you could take a half a glass and turn it into a glass and a half in terms of your mindset. And I think that's a wonderful place. Thank you
Elton:You talk about being in a club that specializes in humor. So I take it that you consider yourself a jokester of sorts, which is, this is a good thing because using humor in very uncomfortable situations, sometime bridges you through that. When you find that you get to the end and go, woo, I got through that. Can you tell me, or give me an experience where humor got you from point a to point B.
Jim:That is a great question. Elton, I think humor for me is not necessarily something that I would consider a stepping stone, but I do consider it a way for people to understand that if I'm trying to make them less. That I respect who they are and I'm going to try and connect with them in a way that helps them have a more optimistic or entertaining view of whatever the context is. I'll give you a little bit of an example. One of the things that gives me the greatest joy in my life is what I'll call doing something like a bad job. With my wife and seeing her go through this process of having a slow meltdown where she is doing the best she can to not laugh and encourage me. So for me, it's one of those things that helps cement relationships, and it also helps break the ice in some ways when we were talking earlier, possibly before the recording about how my name is very relatable for India. Humor is also a very relatable, I will tell you, I focused a little bit on some other things that weren't quite as relatable. When I was running for Lieutenant governor education and training the precursor to program quality director. At that time, I thought to myself, how am I going through. To members of our district at that time, I hadn't been in Toastmasters for all that long. You want to say about seven years or so, and I hadn't been in a humor club yet. We had charted at a couple of years after that. So at that time, the way I related to people was thinking I'm a, I'm an electrical and software engineer for GE healthcare. I'm running for this position and have to think about things that everyone has an opinion on. And I settled for bacon. Now, this is the American style bacon, not Canadian bacon, but in Wisconsin, it's unambiguous. When people say bacon, they're talking about American style bacon, and everyone has an opinion on it. My, Jewish friends will tell me, they'll enjoy it. They don't talk about it, but they enjoy it. My Muslim friends. They don't even want to talk about it, but they have an opinion about it, but everyone else, they want to talk about crispy or not crispy, what it goes in, what you can wrap it around. More than that recipe books are completely superfluous for bacon. Cause in theory, the recipe takes some of the recipe and put bacon in it. Oh, how difficult is that? So it was a very relatable subject. They could have a conversation with a complete stranger about bacon and they would have an opinion. Later on. It became too big of a thing by itself. It's a little bit of a distraction, but I do find now that humor is a nice way to connect with people and everyone enjoys at least attempt to be humorous or that they are completely successful. Sometimes it's hard to connect with someone on a level that is both intellectual and humorous. If you don't know them, But attempts are frequently more appreciated than not. So it's a nice way to connect with people. But I would not base international relations. The ability to connect with a good joke or a dad joke you already got,
Elton:but all roads lead to bacon
Jim:that will not surprise anyone who knows me. If they hear that statement you on that price that they came up in this conversation.
Elton:Funny, you mentioned that, but now on a somber note, this year has been hard on many. The last two years has been very hard on many organizations, including Toastmasters International and we've, we have seen decreases and many areas. One of them being membership and. The key. I think this year is two a, we need to figure a way to increase membership and also all people, they tend to members that we do have so that they are still energized. What are your thoughts on keeping our members and acquiring new
Jim:great question. I'll 10. I think we probably need to acknowledge a few things. And that is when people join a Toastmaster club when they joined it. If it was before the last year and a half, much of the reason that I think they joined it was because they could see the other members of the club and they could figure out how they could relate to those other individuals. I think if you walked into a club, if you're shopping around for a Toastmaster club and you walk into a club and you cannot relate to any of those people, You will not be coming back. So a lot of what makes a person join that club is not something you could assess via technology via zoom, but who those people are, how they look at you, a sense of respect, a sense of mutual admiration and a sense of we can conquer this working together as a team. It's really hard to get that same feeling, any virtual experience. So the people that are lost, the people that are not renewing the memberships it's because the experience is a very different thing. There's no question in my mind, that's what's going on. If you want to get those people back, you have to connect with them in a way that. It was different and meaningful for them because the experience is going to remain different until we can start meeting face to face. So I don't have a pat answer because you will have recognized I've tiptoed around what can any single club do. And my thought right now is you can take a look at some of the great advice that's out there for Toastmasters who want to. I run a good virtual meeting or even have a hybrid meeting because there's some expert level materials out there to help clubs survive. At least in that regard, you'll find that there are people such as yourselves and myself who are technically savvy. We have computers are accustomed to do. Things that are like this outside of the Toastmaster world. So for us, it's not as unrelatable as it might be for people who have no experience with computers and don't want to deal with technology. So I don't think there's an easy solution for getting the members back until people start meeting either hybrid or face-to-face situation. And if it's a hybrid situation, it has to be done really well. Check out the resources that are there for helping clubs deal with that. The other thing, this is another related thing in my experience, which is not universal and isn't measured by a good statistical basis. I think the world of PR in a club has changed quite a bit. You can't really put a note up at the local supermarket that says things like looking for a fun thing to do or want to improve your communication or leadership. Join us at this address at this date and time. So you have to be careful about how you share information. If you're got zoom links out, suddenly the nature of your engagement with potential guests is very different. Those guests are going to be thinking about Toastmasters in a completely different way. If they've joined the club or thinking about joining a Toastmasters clubs, since COVID became a thing, and for them, the VPPR has to think about campaigns. They can run to connect. with an audience that's out there. They can't rely on word of mouth from people who are already in the club. They can't rely on some of the old traditional things. They can't simply rely on pushing messages out to their club. Facebook site. I don't have a breakthrough idea. Clubs really need to do to connect with a broader audience, but I know that people are successful with Meetup. They're successful with some other ways of getting the messages out. And the thing that's hard is that your average VPPR might not understand what the options are or how to use them. Because once again, they might be more technical than previous approaches in PR used to be. So I think for clubs to survive and grow. That's where the focus needs to be is maybe having the VPPR understand technology or work with a technology committee to get their message out there in a more effective way. And also check out the resources on surviving in a hybrid and virtual world.
Rita:I thank you so much for that response. There's no question that things are different radically different since we've been meeting online, but I do believe the clubs are giving it their best shot to accommodate and to attract people to this new way of doing Toastmasters business. Now at the top of our interview Jim. We talked about your having been a past international director. I wonder if you could walk us through the highlights of that role of international director
Jim:Sure. I'd like to provide a little bit of context for why I ran as an international director when I was a district. Leader. I was very uncomfortable. We already talked about the whole bacon thing and me trying to figure out how to relate to people who in the state of Wisconsin, there are some technology corridors, but there are a lot of people who are entrepreneurs and are not in technical. There are gardeners, there are farmers, they're all kinds of people who are Toastmasters and in the process of becoming a district leader. One of the ultimate unobvious, truce of Toastmasters and other endeavors, where discomfort means that you're learning and growing. So after finishing up as a district leader, I had admired some of the skills that our region advisor had. And I nominated myself as a regional advisor candidate and I served as regional advisor and two different regions and separate years in 2015, I was a region five and in 2000, excuse me, 2013, 14,015. Yes. So two years, 2014, 2015, region five, region two. And in the process of doing that. I realized that the discomfort that I had as a district leader was a little bit less, but it was still acquiring a lot of skills that involved understanding other people's perspectives, how to relate to them, how to connect with them, how to be more active in terms of listening and matriculating their ideas and trying to accommodate. People's inputs, even when they were very different, possibly very much at odds with each other. Excuse me. So when I ran for international director, it was because I thought this offered additional opportunities to. Internationally. I already had business experience through GE working in Japan and France and hungry and working with people in India. So I was very comfortable and familiar with cultures that were very different from the United States and north America, even, but I wanted to continue my personal and professional growth. And I thought being an international director would allow me to do that. Go to also. To help Toastmasters international by bringing some analytical skills and other kinds of skills that I've been told that I had in 2012 and help other people succeed in the same way that I had succeeded and grown. So I recognize it as both me giving back. Which is a cliche because people tend to say that all the time, but I like helping other people succeed. And I also liked the idea that it was helping me grow personally. Perfect. So back to your question, highlights of serving on the board. I'll have to tell you connecting with the other international directors and the people who are members of what's referred to as the executive committee, that being the second vice president first vice president elect the president and immediate past her national president. They are a stellar group of people. They are. So easy to relate to. They're very smart, they're great communication and influence skills. And every board meeting had a showcase of ideas and opinions as well as committee reports. I make committee parts. Weren't always sparkling and amazing, but the conversations are always a very good. The interactions among board members were always a lot of fun. There was always a lot of always an interesting challenge to think about a point in the discussion. To people who've got diametrically opposed perspectives on what the future should be and trying to step in and guide them towards a point of convergence. So I looked forward to that. I enjoyed a lot of opportunities, both to share my ideas as well as help people converge on varying ideas. I enjoyed the personalities of the folks involved. I had an already enjoyed working with staff when I was a regional advisor. A lot of what we do as a region advisor. It works very much, very closely with folks on staff at Toastmasters international. Dan Rex is a spectacular person. I enjoyed getting to know him better and working with him frequently. So there was so much to look forward to not only in terms of things that can grow you as a person, whether it's personal and professionally, but also the nature of relationships that you will treasure the rest of your life. Hands down.
Elton:I think that's really interesting because it's, it's starts off as a microcosm right in your club the roles themselves don't really change the responsibility, becomes greater. So it's a beautiful way that Toastmasters moves you through its educational program via leadership. And now I see through your comments, how even at the very top of the organization, these you're still carrying all of the things that you've learned up to your, to where you are now.
Jim:That seems accurate.
Elton:I wonder what do you do outside of Toastmasters? What are you, what are your passions? What are you into. Do you watch Netflix? I don't know.
Rita:I anticipate I anticipated, I'll hear the word bacon coming in. Let's listen very carefully.
Jim:So Elton I have many hobbies and many passions. And even though I'll say I have passions, a lot of the things that I'll claim are passions, because I put time and energy into it. I'm not actually passionate about it. So for example, I'm not, I don't feel like running outside when it's cold out. It fills me with excitement and joy, but I know that it's good for my body and it's good for myself. So I do it like some people do religion, but yes, I do. I walk outside with my wife sometimes practically every day we go for about a three mile walk and it gives us a nice opportunity to decompress and share our thoughts of the day and make sure that we're on the same page about who's doing what whenever we have bills to cover or people need to follow up with, or any of those things. I do read, although not as much as I would have liked to when I was younger, I used to read voraciously. I read a lot of science fiction when I was in high school, when I say a lot and it wouldn't be unusual for me to go through. A book a week or a book every two weeks, paperback Ray, Bradbury, asthma, all the old grades. I enjoy cooking Cajun food. I enjoy eating Cajun prude. I enjoy dining out. One of the great joys in life for me is to see what kind of interesting spicy food I can find at an interesting restaurant. And do I playing, I should say this I'm 62 years old right now. So I was going to say, I enjoy playing ultimate Frisbee, but that is really hard on your knees when you're my age. So what I do right now is I play kind of a toned down version of that with some friends. And because I only have one friend who will do this with me in the winter time. And he's moved to Tulsa. I probably will go through all of winter without throwing any Frisbees around, but he and I used to go. Even when it was five below Fahrenheit and windy out and throw Frisbees around, running through the snow, looking like we had some sort of mental health issue that we were trying to resolve with Frisbees. So I do all of those things. I do like puzzles quite a bit, and I think I've even enticed my wife and two enjoying puzzles. We have immense calendar that we enjoy. I do crosswords. They do Sudoku. The Mensa puzzles got all kinds of tiny little brain teasers that will twist your brain around and not, it's trying to figure out the puzzle that they've invented for their daily calendar. So I like all of those things. I like time with my family. I have two adult daughters that mentioned before. We don't see them as much because they're basically on their own. One is in Denver. One lives about 20 miles east of us right now. So family time is important.
Elton:Yes. So you said I'm going to go back to spicy food in Wisconsin. I don't know. For some reason, I just thought that never come to mind, spicy food in Wisconsin.
Jim:So good. The spicy foods story is an interesting one for me. I was on a business trip in Pittsburgh in 1984 with some coworkers and then believe it or not. I think the spiciest food I'd had in my life at the age of 25 had been pepperoni pizza. So not really that spicy we're driving through Pittsburgh. My boss was driving the rental car and he's saying, oh, look, there's a pizza. There's a Mexican place. There's an Indian place. What do you guys want to do? And my coworker said, yes, we said, Hey, let's go to that Indian restaurant. So when tend to the Indian restaurant and I'll try and give you the short version of this story, because the long version could take up the rest of our time here tonight. But we went in there, my boss ordered shrimp Curry, extra spicy, and I thought, Ooh, shrimp Curry. I don't know what that is, but chimps sounds good. So I ordered the shrimp Curry mile just to have Indian food with air quotes. Okay. When the food came out, my boss Irv took a bite of his shrimp Curry, extra spicy, and he looked disappointed. I thought it would be spicier than this. And then I took a bite of mine and I couldn't talk because my mouth was on fire. I felt like I could feel blisters, forming all parts of my body. So my incorrect impression at the time was that my boss. Was a huge message when it came to spicy food and that I was a complete wimp and I was so overcome by the pain and this comfort that I couldn't stop eating it because it turns out it hurts more. If you stop, if you keep eating it, you're going to be in trouble at some point. But at least in the moment you can act like you're just eating food. So I was so amazed by how disabled I felt that I thought I got to do something about this. I have to conquer spicy food. So I did long story short. I developed a method that involves using Chipotle powder and table sugar to take the edge off. If you go over the top, you got to the point where I could eat just about anything. And this was, excuse me, anything. That someone who isn't completely insane would eat and buy that. Here are people who eat, but to look your peppers, I will not do that. I also have eaten Haben arrows, and I don't suggest anyone do that either, unless they're actually cooked a little bit or blended into some food. And this, my thoughts about this, and, my personal threshold for spicy food was verified. When I went out to a restaurant. In Milwaukee, strangely enough, where they have a tremendous menu and you can order anything on this menu with a heat rating of one to 10, my friend Mustapha, who is Pakistani, he and I would go there with a bunch of our Indian friends and order the spiciest things that we could get them to make for us, including having them make it with a heat rate. 15 and 20, and they said, sorry, we're not going to do that anymore because it makes the cook cough too much when he's cooking, but we can bring stuff out and put it on the side. So when Mustapha and I are sweating, has they're eating and smiling at each other and enjoying the sense of some sort of mental catharsis happens when you're having spicy food like that. I thought. I think I finally conquered that thing. And if I ever meet up with her again, we'll have to go out for spicy shrimp Curry and just to keep things going. in 1985, a group of us locally here started having an annual potluck thing that people would bring food to share. And we called Cajun fast and we would make Cajun food, including some things that were spicy and some things that weren't spicy. But that was just to make sure that we were. Trying innovations that relate to spicy Cajun, either actual Cajun food or Cajun inspired ideas. So yeah, there's, you can get spicy food and Wisconsin come and visit sometime and I'll take you out.
Elton:I don't know about that. I'm not, I love spicy food. I just don't like it to the point where it makes my teeth. Uh, cut this off. Speaking of the time flying, which it certainly has, it has been a absolute joy, a pleasure to spend some time with you Jim Jim two a K two and to actually get, to get to know you and to actually listen to the views of an individual who is a past international director at Toastmasters international. Is there anything that you would like to add to that?
Rita:I would like to saying that while Jim was talking about his Paicey Sherm Curry, I could taste it. I could literally taste it. My first spicy experience would take about three hours to tell the story, but that happened about 30 years ago. And I could see. Feel the tingling 30 years later. Nevertheless, Jim, this was certainly delight. Thank you for sharing about how Toastmasters has influenced your life personally and professionally. And thanks for bringing us into your world. It's certainly was very enjoyable to have you as our guest, and you never know, maybe. Bunch of questions we'll have for you will revolve around spicy foods and bacon. Thank you. So much complete delight speaking with you both tonight. I look forward to connecting with you again, whenever the opportunity presents itself. Bye-bye take care. Stay well. Enjoy the holidays. thank you for listening to speak up to discover upcoming podcast. Please go to www dot Toastmasters 66, zero.com under news and events. Look for the district 60 newsletter to locate the schedule.